Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Vikings and JJ McCarthy should blast the New York Giants

Episode Date: December 20, 2025

Andrew Krammer of the Minnesota Star Tribune joins the show for our weekly hardcore preview, breaking down the the upcoming Vikings-Giants game. Then, Bobby Peters of the Alert the Post Newsletter joins the show to discuss the Vikings' offense and how it's evolved this season. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, presented by Fandul, Matthew Collar here, along with Andrew Kramer of the Star Tribune, for our hardcore breakdown of the Vikings and Giants. Why does it feel like it's been eight years since the Vikings last played? We've been breaking down every throw from the Dallas game. It seems like for days and days. and now another opportunity for J.J. McCarthy. And you know the interesting part about this game, Andrews,

when you look at the old roster, got the little depth chart here for the New York Giants, you're like, well, that guy's good, that guy's good, that guy made a lot of money. I recognize that guy, but then I go scroll, scroll, scroll to the stat pages, and you go, make it make sense. So is this Giants defense what? Like, what is J.J. McCarthy facing? because I recognize a lot of these names, and there's some players who have some really darn good resumes, but their overall performance is very poor.

Yeah, like on defense. Anyway, Shane Bowen was one of the first guys to go off the ship, the first deck chair to get off the Titanic, and then it was Brian Dable and the rest of the crew. But I think that's a big part of it is the coaching. Obviously, they have not been greater than the sum of their parts. You mentioned those parts, they're all very, a lot of them big names. A lot of them, even Minnesota fans would know, Tyler Nubin at Safety, John Michael Schmitz, et cetera, all the named defensive linemen that they've got that can be so good.

We know are coached well by Andre Patterson, former Vikings co-defensive coordinator. So, yeah, that's the big question is like, okay, you know they can stand out and make plays. You watched that commander's game last week. They were down 22 to 7 by halftime of that game. But they started off well. They started off well defending the run. And then things just kind of fell apart from there. And they look like kind of frankly a disinterested team.

And to be two and 12 playing in December, it's not too much of a shock to. see that once they get punched in the mouth, they can kind of roll over. So I think that's what it seemed to be last week. Maybe they're a different team this week against the Vikings at home at MetLife Stadium. But you said it yourself. They give up six yards of play, too, combined with all, despite, I should say, despite all the name talent that they've got. A rudderless ship, I think, would be the way to define the New York Giants and their defense at the moment. However, I would not say that it's the easiest defense the Vikings will face this year because of some of these players. And I've always thought that when we get to these December games and there are teams

that are definitely mailing it in, especially guys who have big contracts and it doesn't make any difference at all whether you play well, you're going to get paid next year. But if the game starts out a certain way and certain people smell blood, as in rack up a few more sacks for the old resume and the old pro football reference page, there could be some inspiration. And that's how I see this game with the Giants, where if you come out and your first two drives are touchdowns and it is 14 to nothing, I mean, they're going to have the suitcases on the sideline ready to go to Cancun. But I do think if you come out and, you know, take a sack early, look a little scattershot early, that the Dexter Lawrence's, the Brian Burns, the Abdul Carter's, might be like,

you know, what's that I smell in the water? A little bit of blood, and I'm going to go get myself a few sacks today. And I really think the beginning of this game could dictate how inspired the New York Giants are to play. That's a great point. If you do get off, do a fast start. This can be a quick afternoon. I feel like, like you said, just getting up by halftime on a team like this that seems so eager to want to roll over your right. And the dangerous part is you could lose this momentum that you've built, these stacking of good days with J.J. McCart.

and this really downtrodden team, you could really start to lose that quickly because this Giants team is a team that has the talent, even on offense, Jackson Dart, somebody who has shown to be a gamer, even if he can kind of get hit and thrown around like a rag doll at times out there, but he's somebody who can make plays on the run and can make plays with his feet, certainly in terms of, or in addition to also throwing on the run. So all those things add up to a recipe that we know this Vikings team is capable of losing any given Sunday if they don't, you know, if they don't take their opponent seriously. So my expectation is that the Vikings will not have Christian Derisaw. As we record this,

it's not 100% confirmed, but Brian Burns versus Justin's school is a matchup to watch because Burns is certainly a guy who already has 13 sacks on the year, who is not going to stop trying to get sacks and pressures. And, you know, Lawrence has not been the same this year, but I think Abdul Carter, if you saw him play last week, he was fantastic in last week's game for a guy who snoozed through a few meetings this year seemed like he was pretty inspired. And I think at very least those guys will come out very strong to start this game. And that just in school slash whoever is trying to chip Brian Burns type of matchup

is really going to be one to watch because last week there was no edge pressure whatsoever from the Dallas Cowboys. And we saw J.J. McCarthy get three seconds to throw for the entire game and be able to go down field. It made some great plays in those clean pockets. But he was not under duress consistently. Do you think that that should be a concern for this week of, hey, we had some success working everything down the field and hanging in the pocket because it was a clean and safe pocket that it might be a little less clean and safe this week? I think they found some answers or at least some things that J.J. seems to be pretty good. comfortable with in terms of getting the ball out quickly that you can go to if you find out

that this is a bad, a worst day for Justin's school compared to what we're used to getting. I thought he played pretty well in Dallas. I really didn't think it was that bad of a game for him. So if he's playing like that, if they don't have Darisol like you mentioned, the rest of those four guys, now that they've been together for at least a few weeks, have started to gel a little bit. And I am most interested in seeing the Dexter Lawrence of it all. Just seeing him against Ryan Kelly, who has played very well since he's gotten his group

back a little bit and the two guards, because Will Fries has been so up and down, but Donovan Jackson has really shown some strides for being such a young player. So this is a great opportunity for those guys to continue to show that, hey, they can be like a long-term solution at both spots for this offensive line. We don't know Ryan Kelly's future quite at this point with the Vikings beyond this year or in football in general, but those two guys have a lot to show at the guard spots, and this is going to be a great matchup for it to show. I do think when you mentioned, though, how it affects Sunday. I think the Vikings are comfortable right now with how JJ's playing efficiently, how he's seeing things, how they're not overloading his mind and how he

seems to be playing with that clarity that was so hard for him to find when they were hammering the five, seven-step drops and your feet and your eyes and all those kind of things. Well, I also think that during that run of struggles for J.J. McCarthy, there was something that correlated, which was defenses that do not show you the picture pre-snap. And these last two have, not really thrown much off for J.J. McCarthy. And my test is always, can I figure out the defense when I'm watching it back on tape? And if I can, that means it's not that great or not that deceptive. You know, a Cleveland defense is not that deceptive, but they have Miles Garrett so it doesn't matter. But when you are the Dallas Cowboys, the Washington commanders, and the

quarterback is getting a pretty easy read right from the line of scrimmage, you see that advantage. But the Ravens love to throw off the picture. Dennis Allen does that. Jeff Halfley does that. I don't even know who's running their defense at this point. So I don't expect it to be too wild for the New York Giants. So it really comes down to the decision making. Can you get the ball out quickly as you did against Washington and make good decisions with it as you did against Dallas? And that's really, we've seen the high-end stuff from J.J. McCarthy.

We've seen the deep passes. We saw, you know, the rollout and put it in a spot for Jalen Naylor, give him a shot, like good things like that. But now it's about consistently doing that. because if you have two weeks where there's no turnovers and then four turnovers, well, then that's not good enough. Like, this is the type of game where you shouldn't turn the ball over at all. Their secondary is interesting because there's multiple players here who they went in on in the offseason.

Paul Senebaud and Javon Holland, who Brian Flores referenced the other day. I think he has a ton of respect for Javon Holland really likes him. And the other guys may be less recognizable, but they've got some decent names there as well of guys who have been around, Cordale Flott has played a couple of years. Yeah, I know. But he was a third round pick, and he's, like, been in the league, and I don't know. Like, this doesn't look like it should be anywhere near as bad as it actually is.

But I also think that today, Sunday, is the day for Justin Jefferson. Last week, I kind of lost it in here talking about that, like, it's time. And what did that lead to? And that, well, targets did not lead to completions. Even though they've got some names, I think their defense is in total disarray. in the back end. We saw that last week against Marioada, and it is the moment for

Justin Jefferson to go for 8 for 96, 10 for a buck 20, something like that. You know, they said something on the broadcast watching that game back against Dallas where it stood out to me, because obviously they meet with McCarthy, they meet with O'Connell and I think it was Toriko, I mentioned that

McCarthy it's told them that, you know, when I throw to Justin, there's, you know, they're paraphrasing, but he said there's so much pressure when I throw to him. That says a lot. to me. And JJ has not come out and said that in so many words to us, at least not recently. But for that to still be going through his mind, and you can just see it. It seems like his most inaccurate passes seem to be when he's targeting Justin Jefferson. That part of it still seems to be in his mind where he's not having the full clarity, the full kind of just physical muscle

memory of throwing the football like normal to that guy because it's flying sometimes five feet over his head or it's getting rifled in when it needs to be a touch pass in the corner of the end zone. Even Jefferson said yesterday, like, yeah, that one came in a little hot, a little hotter than I expected. But he's caught passes like that. There was a touchdown in Detroit, I think. He caught over his shoulder. That was another just, you know, missile. That's what he throws, though. And you see that when he's at his worst, when he's most kind of geared up and really amped up and not calm and not kind of focused and just in rhythm, you see that come out of him. And I think with Jefferson, that seems to bring the worst out of him as a passer for some reason. That needs to get fixed. And no

defense is going to fix that for him. That all kind of comes back into his head. I'm glad you brought up the point though about kind of disguising coverages and all that stuff because when you watch it, it does seem pretty clear what they're doing before the snap. There's some stuff like there's a third and 20 where they morph the two deep kind of safeties into hook curl defenders and then, you know, drop the other three guys after the snap. But it's very quick post snap kind of rotation stuff. It's not too deceptive pre-snap where you're really thinking, oh boy, Harrison Smith's up with the line here, but he's going to be the deep half defender on the opposite side of the field. Like, they don't do any of this crazy stuff.

So I think that should help him with their plan, this plan that seems to me that is gaining steam in terms of comfort with him, coaches knowing what to do with him, not putting too much on his plate. And then I thought, too, the Dallas game showed more of the under center rollout stuff. The 20-yard touchdown to Naylor to start the game was an example of what you need to see from him, even if the micro wasn't, because it was the big leg whip, it was the bad, you know, fundamentals, but it was the structure of the play that he needs to succeed in in this offense that he just has not done enough of. Right. And that's why I thought that the overall

game plan sort of seemed a little bit like Gary Kubiak, Kevin Stefanski-ish, where they ran a lot on early downs, which I expect them to have success against this team and running the football. That's another thing. If you get up early, they ain't trying to stop the runs. It hurts to stop the run. I ain't going to do that. Jordan Mason, fourth quarter or not? No, yeah, that's exactly right. So if you get that run going, then O'Connell, when I asked him earlier this week about

the adjustments that they made, he referenced like getting to those second and six or less and then giving those opportunities for play action, shots downfield. And this is a philosophy that some teams with really good quarterbacks tend to deploy. I think that it's taken O'Connell and McCarthy a while to get. get on the same page of what he is seeing and what works for him the best. And maybe we found it and maybe we haven't, which I wanted to ask about for your take on sort of the big picture of what this game means. Because it feels to me like I said this the other day.

I wish I could simulate this one and just get to the two games against good teams and start to see what that means. Next week, please. Right. To me, there's only one way that this can go for him. Like, you have to either destroy the giants or it's still going to leave the conversation open to, like, what is this, right? I mean, anything less than a great performance against a team that's totally mailed it in is just not enough to continue on this conversation of like, oh, yeah, like, it's progress, it's going better, it's going better. If that resets, then we're right back to where we were after Green Bay.

Yeah, you're right. There's not too much, the ground you can lose is much greater than the ground you can gain. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, this week. And I think with McCarthy, you could see how they're starting to maybe take a little bit of the training wheel off here as they get him just thinking about his decision making and not so much the fundamentals. And when I say that, I mean, that first Washington game we talked about it was almost all shotgun in the first half. It was ball out. Just don't even turn your back to the defense.

That's not how they play offense. I keep talking about that. So as they progress here, this third game should probably look a little even more like what this offense wants to look like, more under center with him. not just handing the ball off, but actually under-center dropping back and passing. We have not still seen a ton of that even in Dallas. There was good examples of it. He had a couple checkdowns to Aaron Jones that O'Connell referenced because of how few and far between those opportunities were for him,

but he at least was efficient. And the big number for me is he has one turnover in these two games. It was the tip ball, obviously, to start the game in Dallas. That was still a good decision. It was into the blitz. It was just obviously one of those things where he's talked about, not having the correct arm angles. We watched Stafford last night.

Like some guys can just do ridiculous things and he's nowhere near that. He has kind of a one pitch speed thrower and kind of a one angle arm thrower at this point. And that got him in trouble there. But it was a good decision of where he was trying to go with the football. So if he continues to make good decisions

and they continue to try to take some of the, you know, braces and supports off of him and try to continue to build that, that is the ground he can gain. But you're right. We're not going to feel, after that Giants game, like, oh, yep, this is it, franchise quarterback.

The way that we could very easily see this playing out is exactly how I described, where you get up 14 early, and then everybody just sort of has conversations on the sideline about what their holiday plans are. I mean, that was Washington, right, where we kind of joked that anyone a quarterback could have won the game for the Vikings in that one. I would not say that about Dallas. He won the game. They won because of them against Dallas.

But you don't want that. Like what you'd like in an ideal world, I know that O'Connell would love to win 49 to zero and just have New York not even show up. But what you'd like in our world as we were trying to figure out each week, like what is J.J. McCarthy, is how it went in Dallas, where there are moments that you need your quarterback to come up with a big drive. And against the Cowboys, they were down was it 24, 23 or 7, 2317 at one point. And then they got up 24, 23 with a big drive from McCarthy. Those types of moments are what forge these opinions of whether you can be like a real starting and winning quarterback in the NFL or not. And if we don't see any in New York, it's going to feel like, oh, what a waste of jet fuel. So what would be your prediction on that?

How do you think it goes? Because I think the Vikings are going to, I'll spoil. I mean, I think they're going to run away with this one. I don't think it's going to be close. And I don't think we're going to be having in-depth conversations about what it means, but instead just sort of moving on to those, last two games. I imagine O'Connell views this in a similar sense of we can get this team, this Giants team, to quit fairly early. And quits maybe too strong of a word, but get them to question how much we want to be out here. And so that means that I'm sure they're opening script,

quote unquote, they're opening menu of plays they're going to choose from, the stuff they're going to hammer in practices this week, the stuff they're going to want McCarthy to be best at, I think they will come out hot. I think they will get up 7, 10, nothing. I think it will be over by halftime, by the third quarter, in part, too, because we're going to, because we're going to we didn't even talk much about, like Brian Flores in this Giants defense, or he's seen his Vikings defense against Jackson Dart, I do not think it's going to go well for Mr. Dart. I think somebody who doesn't take hits very well,

somebody who doesn't operate under pressure all that well if you don't let him out of the pocket, if you stay disciplined in your rush lanes like they have. This Vikings defense has been well tested against better, more mobile quarterbacks than him. That's the part of it that I think, especially if we talk about them getting down, I don't like the Giants' chances of even making it a game.

Well, let's go over to that. side of the football. You know, Jackson Dart, it's tough evaluation because he keeps running himself into everything. But when I've seen him play, I've been impressed. His first game or two, he was kind of throwing knuckle balls out there and scrambling. And you're like, okay, is this just a guy who's going to, you know, try to make a bunch of plays, but not really play quarterback? And as the season has gone on, I feel like he has come into his own with stops and starts as more of a complete playmaking type of quarterback who really does throw a nice ball down the field especially. Yes, he takes way too many hits, but I also do think without Jonathan Grenard, if they don't

pressure him on early downs especially, he can find a way to make some plays. And the one thing that has beaten the Vikings defense this year is quarterbacks who don't go down, like the Caleb Williams, the Jalen Hertz, the Justin Herberts, guys who could avoid that first rusher. And then when you're looking down the field, you're going, oh, well, this Vikings coverage unit is questionable, and it's more questionable without Josh Mattelis. And I think Grinard has also been a big, big part of creating problems for quarterbacks. And then they build the blitz off of the fact that Grinard's probably going to win. I mean, it's a big moment for Dallas Turner.

That's for sure. But he's not Jonathan Grinard right now. No, and Josh Mattelis, too, is a pretty big part of their blitz package as well. I wonder if Ivan Pace, maybe this is the game now he finally gets more involved. We know Eric Wilson, Cashman. I just think they're going to blitz dart a lot. I agree with you. I'm probably not being fair enough to dart as a rookie.

He has shown a lot better things than I thought he was going to, and especially considering the talent that he does not have around him, Malik neighbors going down so early, them obviously starting the season off with Russell Wilson. I just think he has shown that he can be a guy who can push the ball downfield, be accurate when he, in moments, not be totally consistent. but then his legs and what he can do with those. Because I remember his last win, was it the Eagles game?

I think their last win might have been that Philadelphia game where they beat the Philly right before the Vikings. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He played very well, and he scored two rushing touchdowns, I believe in that game. One of them was like a third down draw. Like, he can beat you in various ways with his legs. I just think the Vikings crowd the line of scrimmage so much that they're not going to,

the Grenard's injury is going to hurt, but they're not going to have to rely on a four-man rush. They're not going to sit there and say, you know, we've got to drop seven in coverage because, boy, what happens if Wondale Robinson gets by our two guys, I think they'll be fine dropping, you know, six, five into coverage and just forcing the issue, trying to force the ball out, trying to take it away from DART, all these different things. This is a past defense that has not given up a touchdown in five weeks, and that includes just last week to Dak Prescott. You know what I want to call the Giants? I want to call them in theory, because there's so many things. things that you look at with this team. You're like, well, in theory, Jackson Dart as an ascending young quarterback should be winning some games and having some exciting moments. And he has had exciting moments, but they haven't won very many games. I look at their running

backs, Tyrone Tracy and Devon Singletary. These guys are pros. Cam Scadaboo was a very exciting player for them who's out for the year. But it's not like these guys haven't done anything. Tracy was good last year. And Singletary's been on some teams. And Tracy runs hard. He's still playing well for them. And their offensive line, to your point, they have names. They've got guys who play fairly well. Yeah, I mean, Andrew Thomas is top-notch left tackle. And you mentioned John Michael Schmidt. He's a high draft pick center. And their wide receivers not having Malik neighbors. Entertainment value goes because they don't have him in the game. Wondale Robinson has had a very good year for them. But you know who I noticed is on their team is Isaiah

Hodges. Like Vikings killer Isaiah Hodges. Now this is the X factor for the game is that for some reason, this guy just was great against the Vikings. And then I don't even know if he's in the league for like two years. And now he's back. You had 100 yards in that playoff game, didn't he? I think he did. Yeah, or something in that ballpark. Yeah. But Darius Slayton, Wondale Robinson, and Isaiah Hodges is not super scary. No. And I think the guy to watch for, we haven't really seen any tight ends light up the Vikings this year, have we? Oh, Ronda Gadsden. But aside from that, we really haven't.

Theo Johnson, I think, is one of those guys who, if you mess around, like, could do some stuff. That's the best I can do, Giants, the best I can do. Yeah, I think Gadsden got down there because they just broke him off the formation, said, Flores, I don't care if you're going to blitz us. We're just going to send him down there. All these other tight ends are pinned in the trenches for their lives, just getting sent all these pass rushers after him. And Theo Johnson's probably going to get more of that. But he's got some talent.

You mentioned Slayton, Wondale Robinson. They do still have some guys who can get out and make some big plays if Isaiah Rogers, if the Viking secondary is not on point. But I'm interested to see how Jay Ward handles in kind of a bigger role and how he's going to step up because they've really liked what they've seen out of him. He seems to have usurp Theo Jackson in the depth chart for now. And I think that says a lot about both of those players at this point. And they're going to need, we're talking about long term for this franchise, Matt.

They're going to need young rookie contract guys to start taking steps and ascending into bigger roles. And maybe Jay Ward is one of those guys in 2026 and beyond. Yeah, I've been intrigued by Jay Ward because he was a top-notch special teamer for them the last two years. And we've seen this model work out before where it's the Sendejo, the Harris, the Mattelis, where the guy develops as a safety. And then for whatever reason, that position seems to translate. And with Jay Ward, he was a versatile player in college, kind of draft. to be that way, developed over a couple of years, and then they've used them in a versatile role. Early in the season, he's playing a lot of safety against the Bears, and then Harrison

Smith comes back, so he goes back kind of to the bench, and then all of a sudden we see him lining up at outside corner, like, Jay Ward outside corner after Isaiah Rogers maybe missed a couple of tackles, and they were not so pleased with that, or whatever it was matchup that they didn't like, but Jay Ward's physicality, I think, matters a lot to this team. Oh, my gosh. And with major questions at the safety position, do you have another guy there or not? Is a question that I think you can answer over the next couple of games. What do you think happened with Theo Jackson?

Because, like, you know, it's my fault. It's your fault. It's playing Judd. I think we all thought that Theo Jackson was going to be a good choice for that. They paid him. And it just did not really close. the way that we had seen other guys in the past. Yeah, I think of how when Cam Bynum was developing over the years,

one thing he talked about in 2024, while they were so good, saying that he was so proud of how he developed was as a tackler and as a run fitter. And those are two areas in Theo Jackson's game that I see a guy who's a little green in terms of his experience at the NFL level, in terms of angles he needs to take,

techniques, whatever. I'm no expert on that field, but you can just see on the field. It wasn't great with him when he had to get forced into those run fits. I think that's a big part of it. I think he seemed fine enough in coverage, but did we also see many plays from him in that aspect either?

So did they have to keep him on the field, or was it worth? Yeah, when Isaiah Rogers misses, I was counting, I think it was four missed tackles he had in the game that necessitated Flores to be like, all right, Ward, you're going to be our outside corner against the Washington team that likes to do the perimeter stuff, so it made a ton of sense. But I think with Theo, you're just seeing that he wasn't making the plays

and then was struggling when they forced him down low. And this Vikings defense, as we all know, is such a pressure-based group that forces so many screens. That's why Van Ginkle is so good at picking them off, forces the ball out so quickly that you need guys who can rally and tackle defeat blocks on the perimeter and get wide receivers down because you know they're going to have the ball quickly. It's so fundamental. And this is why letting Cam walk out of the door, you know, because not only did he bring a lot to the locker room, but that's a great point. What an aggressive tackler on screens and handoffs and then would make plays on deep balls over the middle. I totally understand $15 million a year for a safety is a lot of money to pay, but I think they missed him a ton this year on this defense.

And with Theo, things happen at such insane speeds in the NFL where there were plays where I'd see him coming downhill and he's got the proper angle. And then something changes and he just couldn't, I think, adjust fast. enough or maybe wasn't technically sound enough to be in the spot where he was supposed to be and that I'm not sure. I think Theo is a very highly intelligent player who is a playmaker back there. I just haven't seen a lot of opportunities and one of the reasons for that is if you're losing all the time, teams aren't taking shots into double coverage where safeties can go up and make plays so he wasn't able to make up for some of the shortcomings with the playmaking element. And maybe that's the part we should also mention too is that yeah,

had such low scoring games or had such bad offense that teams just aren't forced to throw it downfield. So he's not playing in the deep half, deep thirds, all that often. He's not getting tested. He's had far more chances to work on his run defense, which has not been great. That's exactly right. So what are our expectations for this? I mean, I think it makes sense to say that Brian Flores' defense will just pummel Jackson Dart. I think he's going to put up more of a fight, but I've also said that I don't think this game's going to be close. So, you know, I think that ultimately it kind of ends up going a little bit like the Washington game, only maybe they finish a drive or two, as opposed to Washington, which got it to the goal line and then just

threw a bunch of passes out of the back of the end zone for whatever reason. Yeah, I think the drop-off from Dak Prescott to Jackson Dart in this Giants offense is much greater than the drop off from Jonathan Grenard to Dallas Turner. And I'm admitting there's obviously a drop-off on both. Grinard is great. Among the NFL leaders in pressure rate and overall pressures, like he just wasn't finishing those plays. He was affecting them, though, consistently. Even without him, I like the Vikings' chances of creating that pressure. Van Ginkle's still out there. Harrison Smith has found new life as a blitzer late in this season. He seems to be enjoying himself out there, which is cool to see at the end of what might be the end of his career here. So I think they're

going to get all those guys involved. I think, yeah, Ivan Pace might have a newfound role here as a pass rusher and a run defender against a young quarterback and a team that's going to want to hand the ball off. So all that to say is that they have enough talent on defense, I still think it's going to be pretty lopsided. And what I'm worried about for the Vikings is that this giant's offensive line is good enough. Tyrone Tracy runs hard enough that if you give up enough four or five yard runs, put them into enough third for third and two, third and fives, whatever, Jackson Darts mobility does set up for pretty easy offense on third manageable. Like he can he can find lanes and create with his legs on some designed runs. So that's the part. And if they don't stop the run and force DART to beat you.

But if, man, if it's third and eight, if he's put in the same spots Dak Prescott was put in, I just don't like his chances. And Dak really struggled in those spots, and he's one of the best of the best at picking things apart. The Vikings on Fandul are two and a half point favorites here, which I would have had at about 10 and a half. I think the motivation factor is so clear. This team wants to finish 9 and 8.

Like, I think it matters to them. I think it matters a lot to Kevin O'Connell. It certainly matters to J.J. McCarthy and his elevation through the end of this season. It matters to Justin Jefferson to get 1,000 yards. It's certainly a pride thing for the defense to win games. I just think that this team is going there wanting really badly to get Ws and the Giants. Everything is already imploded, and there is not a lot of motivations. I'm going to pick this one, Vikings 24-7.

And I know, I know, I said in one of my rants that I wouldn't pick them again for the rest of the season, I got to make an exception here. Okay, I have to. Look at them. You couldn't pick the Giants. Google them. Oh, oh, can I throw one more X factor? I don't even know who's kicking for them. They cut another kicker.

Young boy, Coom missed a 50-yarder for them last week. And they cut them. Oh, did they? I think so. Oh, okay. Yeah, I don't know who's kicking. Let's see if we can find out by the time you're done with your prediction, who the Giants kicker is. Because they had Gano.

Okay. And then they had somebody else, and then they got Young Wai Koo, and then he kicked the ground. Wow, yeah. I think the Vikings cover, that is a small spread. I'm shocked by that, because I, too, have been impressed by the Vikings fight. Like, think about this. They were two weeks ago, they were four and eight, coming off a 26-0 loss in Seattle, looking just absolutely horrific.

And with McCarthy kind of limping out of the concussion protocol back into the huddle, and for them to win the way they did, for them to go into Dallas and win the way they did, the NFC East is bad. These are easy games. They should win. But should is not such an easy word in December when you're four and eight and you had such high expectations for the season and you knew the playoffs were not going to happen. So Kevin O'Connell's got this team motivated, has them playing well.

The Giants are not playing under a coach who's even going to be coaching them next year. Yeah, I like the Vikings' chances to cover. I pick them to win this game 27 to 13. Okay. The Giants kicker. is named Ben Saul's S-A-U-L-S. Better Call Saul's for this game if you need a kicker.

You made that up. No, this is a real headline. The headline is, who is Ben-S-S-L-Salls? What to know about the giant's newest kicker. That's what I wondered. So I am trying to read this and see there's a lot of things that are melting my fault. I'm sorry to the Saul's family. I'm sure he's a nice man. Let's see.

I'm sure he was raised, right? All those things. All right. Let's see what we got here. He was a kicker for Pitt for his college career. Brian O'Neill knows him. His career best was against Kale, which was 58 yards. And his record in the Pittsburgh, oh, he has a stadium. No, wait, no, they're saying it's hard. He kicked outdoors, right, outdoors at Pittsburgh.

I'm trying to read on the fly here about Ben Salls. You're saying Will Riker's going to be the best kicker at the stadium on Sunday. Yeah, so he's had a 58-yard kick before. Oh, okay. This says that he displayed power and accuracy, which, you know, You'd think so if they signed him at Pitt with an 81% field goal percentage, but only 98% college PATs. He missed two. Oh, that's bad.

If you're wondering about that. And he had a strong preseason with the Steelers. Oh, so he was the pit kicker, and the Steelers said, hey, we all work in the same facility. Why don't you come play around with us for the summer? And he went four for four with field goals of 38, 50, 49, and 28. Where else are you going to get this level of breakdown? Great detail. He's left-footed. Oh, my gosh.

I can't wait. A lefty. A left-footy. Who is the left-David-Akers? Sure. Left-foot-kicker. Morton Anderson, former Viking. Yep. My left foot. Best. A movie. That's not about a kicker. That's actually a very dark movie. Okay, well, it's going to be probably very dark for the Giants on Sunday. But if it's not, then, what a breakdown we're going to have after.

But anyway, so best of luck to Ben's. Sal's and everyone else who's going to try to play for the Giants and we will see how it goes and we'll have another one of these. The tone might be a little different if they do not come out with a W. So thank you, Mr. Kramer for coming on by. Absolutely. Football. All right. We welcome back to the show for his 100th appearance historically. Bobby Peters, who writes the alert the post newsletter, an absolute must for you offensive football. nerds and also was the author of the 2004 Minnesota Vikings complete offensive manual. This gentleman decided it was a good idea to watch every single play from last year,

chart it, write about it, explain it. So there are a few people in the world who are more knowledgeable than you, Bobby, about the Minnesota Vikings offense. They probably work inside the building. So you're the best we got. Here's what I want to talk about, though, Bobby. I want to talk about the offense as it is with J.J. McCarthy kind of versus maybe what we saw last year running the offense with Sam Darnold. But I want to begin in a little bit of a different spot.

I sent you some clips to look at from last week's game against Dallas to kind of analyze and give some takeaways. But there's been a lot of discussion. It actually started in Minnesota about the peer progression offense and how that works with quarterbacks. And now I've seen Herbert talking about. I've seen Kirk, had a great breakdown of it. And that started with Kurt Warner sort of critiquing the Vikings and saying that he didn't think that that was maybe the best thing for the quarterback. So where do you stand on that?

I mean, from a broader perspective, has Kevin O'Connell's offense asked J.J. McCarthy to do something that is maybe more difficult or is easier for defenses or easier for the quarterback like where do you stand on this idea of pure progressions for j j mccarthy i think most and this this topic is insanely interesting i think most coaches in the NFL land somewhere in the middle on it whether depending whatever side they say they're on right i think in practicality i think sometimes they're just they don't necessarily uh verbalize it as much right like i think kocs now correct me if i'm wrong his his little sound his minute sound bite of it was very defensive of pure progressions, right?

Yep. I can tell you right now, there's coverage reads built into some of that into what the Vikings do, too, right? Now, Kirk's answer was incredible because it was, right? Like, okay, every came in the league, everything's one high, you know, one high over here, too high pressure on this side. And like, that's what those playbooks looked like, you know, 10, 15 years ago. And the answer and the shift to more peer progression makes a ton of sense because like

pre-snaps, when I'm watching Brian Flores tape, I have no idea what this is going to look like post-snap. I just don't. And the best defensive coordinators across the league do do it too. You know, McDonald up in Seattle, you know, another, another good example, you know, Vic Fangio, right? Like even post-snap, even like the first second post-nap. I remember, you know, 2018 Bears with Vic Fangio, even back then, like he was, you know, it would be either, I couldn't tell. If you paused it a second and a half into a clip, you couldn't tell if it was cover three or cover four. So it's like, I don't know which side to read on, right?

So I think building pure progressions within the framework of like having a defender key read, right? So like a good example of that is like, okay, the Vic Fangio stuff, right? That weak safety is kind of your coverage key. If he buzzes his feet and kind of buzzes straight down, okay, it's some more form of cover three. If he's looking across and trying to poach the number three receiving the other side, that's some form of quarters, right? Or however you want to structure it, right? I don't know the Vic Fangio defensive rules.

So somebody who knows it better than me could correct me on that. But there's got to be like some sort of coverage key that tells you kind of which side to start on and then you go one to two to check down or however you want to do it. But I think the best NFL play designers and coordinators are constantly evolving that stuff too, to kind of to find their ways around it. I mean, I think that it is more of a hybrid from Kevin O'Connell than maybe it's been presented because I do think that there are some defenses that show you a lot pre-snap. And this is from just me going back and watching all 22.

And you're absolutely right that there are some defenses, including Brian Flores. and this is a lot has to do with someone like Harrison Smith where they're making checks and changes and maybe they don't know what the defense is going to be until one second before the snap is taken and they're making a last second check based on a motion or something that they see so they're lining up everybody at the line of scrimmage then all of a sudden it's oh he's dropping back I saw last week Harrison Smith on a third down drop back into a linebacker into the hook zone and then another play he drops. back into a cover four all the way back on the other side of the field.

And like, how in the world as a quarterback could you just pre-snap read that? But then there are plays over the last two games where I've seen Washington or Dallas where I've thought, well, this is old purple insider could stand under center and look at the defense and go, oh, that's cover three. We're going up the scene. And then there you go. And I think that it's built in for this offense to be like, all right, one to two to check down for sure. But, hey, if you go to the line of scrimmage and it's pretty blatant,

they're going to play cover three. And we've got this alert on or something like that to run up the seam. It just hit it, right? And J.J. McCarthy has been able to do that. I don't think it's possible, though, in the NFL, unless you are an absolute freak, unless you're Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, whoever, Matthew Stafford. I think we could see him doing this to just take the snap, drop back, identify the coverage, and then bang. Now, part of the- of Kurt Warner's point, though, is that if you fully understand defenses and fully understand your concepts, you can still find that stuff and pick it apart based on when the defense does eventually present itself. And I think there's a fair point there. But I, this idea that

and Tom Brady and Kurt have kind of gotten into this a little bit, but they're, they're teaching quarterbacks how to read coverages. It's not that they're not. And you have to read coverages. it's just they're trying to make the reads it's not simpler i think it's faster i think i think that i think that's the main idea because i like to watch old games i'm sure you like to watch old games oh yeah quarterbacks had more time to work with back then and now i feel like the pressures are coming a lot faster which it's really an adjustment to that yes for sure and i think this is actually um something i've been kind of noodling with the last few weeks here and i think this is why, especially the last month, you know, six weeks that Caleb Williams has had a, you

know, continues to grow in Ben Johnson's offenses is with, with covers disguised, you want to talk coverage reads, progression reads, whatever you want to talk about. I think offense is getting into more seven step stuff and, you know, most teams nowadays get to seven steps, seven step concepts off play action. I think that's, that's one of the answers here, right? Because it's like, I don't care what kind of, you know, what kind of read you want to call it a progression, a coverage read, right? if we're play actioning and my quarterback's taking the seven steps and hitching up, say we got something like dagger, right? Dagger is a good example off play action.

You know, it's a Kevin O'Connell staple. It's been a staple for the Vikings, you know, last year when I wrote my book, and I'm sure it's still a staple in the offense now. That's something that it's good versus all. No matter what coverage you're seeing, it's good. So like coverage read, progression read, we're starting with the dig, right? There might be an alert, a man alert built in somewhere on the other side of the field, whether you want to alert the through route against like pressure or something, right?

if we're getting zero. Coverage read of progression, we're starting with the day. And then the conversation is done, right? And like there's a lot of, that's just one example. There's a lot of other concepts that kind of fit that mold where like, all right, progression read coverage read, it doesn't, we don't have to decide because the concept itself, what we're trying to do, right, it just kind of plays itself out. And I think the reason is because, okay, when you take seven in a hitch, yeah, it takes a little

bit more time, but like if the ball's thrown on time, we're still in good shape, right? The offensive line is not, you know, the quarterback's retreating as he's doing. It's not like he's taken like a one-step drop and just kind of standing under center, right? He's taking that and it allows, it forces the defense to declare. Because if you're throwing like the old Aaron Rogers, Mike McCarthy, slant flat combination and you don't know what coverage it's going to be. Like you catch the ball from shotgun, you turn over there and you look, you have no idea what you're looking at if you're a quarterback, right? Like it's very challenging. So I think the kind of letting the play develop forces the coverage to declare.

All right. So now we know exactly what we're looking at. And this is part of it. Let me just translate for everyone who doesn't know digs and daggers and through routes. If you just picture one guy running a go route and another guy in breaking. Yeah. So the go. Yeah.

So dagger, the outside guy, the number one receiver runs a big dig route like at like an 18 to 20 yard end. And the inside receiver will run like a vertical, you know, through the inside shoulder of the safety to try to clear the safety out so we can high low the hook window. Right. So if you think about it in your brain, what that looks like, it looks like a dagger. How about that? But yeah, Kevin O'Connell absolutely loves that for Justin Jefferson. But I think what you're talking about, there's two issues that they've struggled with there. And this kind of gives us a window into the major questions, which is what's been working lately

and why hasn't it been working for Justin Jefferson? Let's start with the latter part. I think when they use that dagger concept, the ball has to be out before he gets out of the break. And a lot of times with Darnold or sometimes we saw this with Wendt, the ball is in the air is he's still going vertical and then he shakes and goes into the break and the ball hits him. And that is, I think, a very difficult thing for a young quarterback to trust. And you also have to get the ball in the air with some touch on it because if you just whip it, then it's going to get there before he's out of the break.

Or I think what's happened with McCarthy sometimes is whether he hasn't seen it or hasn't trusted it to show itself and then oh he's out of the break now i have to whip it really hard at him is that something that they can correct fix with time like will this come along with time with j j mccarthy because it remains the biggest box to check is can you consistently get the ball to just of jefferson yeah i think um i couldn't have said that any better um when you're talking about the trust it's a trust right seven and a hitch if that window's there at the top you're drop you've got to let it rip even though the dig's not there you have to put that in there the trust and then the touch too right like say there's a linebacker who's reacting to play action but he's

at about four yards you got to put you got to like you know you got to you got to sand wedge it a little bit right you got a pitching wedge maybe nine I you know not quite a sand wedge we don't lob it over there right but like you know for you golfers out there maybe like a seven eight iron something like that right just enough to get it over there right and then and then and then to drop it right into the dig window because like you said if you're late on that now you've got another hook defender or the middle linebacker is into that window and you've got to try to force it now it's going to be behind the receiver and it's just an absolute mess so so the trust and touch are the two um yes time helps but then also too there's scheme there's stuff scheme wise that

you can do to help to kind of clear that stuff up like a concept and i know it's in kevin o'connell's arsenal um is a concept i call the deep curl concept so it's usually run to the boundary right it's about an 18 yard curl that sits in the hook window so instead of like a receiver from a big split taking an inside release and running a dig. Now we're going to tighten up that split, same release. We're going to end up in that same window, but we're just going to sit there. It's still a timing throw,

but it's more of just like a, you know where he's going to be type of thing. It's a little bit easier. And I bring up the Bears and Caleb Williams again, just because I'm working on a bear's book right now. And like Caleb Williams has had a, he's had some success with Dagger, but there was a game earlier this year

where he missed two wide open dig routes. And I'm like, this is there. Like, what else can the coaching staff do? The ball's out on time. He just accuracy wise, just for whatever reason, this mechanics, right? It's not there. So they started the last couple of weeks calling these deep curl concepts to attack the exact

same window, similar types of play action. And like, it's just a more comfortable throw frame for that receiver throttling down, turning back, and just getting back to the quarterback. So there's definitely some scheme stuff they can do too. And like I said, I know that plays in Kevin O'Connor's arsenal. I'm not sure exactly how many times he's called it this year, but there's definitely stuff the coaching staff can do. But if you're not, regardless of what you're running, if you're not throwing it with trust,

you know, with trust and touch and timing, then, you know, you're in drumble. The three T's have thrown the football down on the field. And a couple of them have not crossed the T so far this year. But against Dallas, there was some level of encouragement throwing to Justin Jefferson, even though they didn't put up the box score numbers. One play got negated that should have been a touchdown because someone else was lined up wrong. So that one counts in our hearts as having actually worked out. And then there's another one that Justin Jefferson drops, which is a very, very hot fastball.

but we expect Jefferson to be able to get his hands up on that and make a play. It seems like one of the switches they've gone to is just getting him running a little more crossing routes instead of go up, turn, like the detail we're talking about. Rather, hey, just get across the field. Remember, I wrote the story with you about crossing routes and how much Gary Kubiak loved them. I think we've seen a little more of that from Justin. What doesn't really work to me is tunnel screens, bubble screens. I just don't think they have the blocking receivers for it. And I don't think that he's a quick Twitch acceleration guy that just catches

and like, oof, upfield. I don't think that's him. He's more of like a, like a Dodge truck that like when it gets moving, there's a lot of size and power there. But I don't think it's like a must. I'm not a good car guy, Corvette, like, you know, something like that. So, um, yeah, I think my two favorite, my two favorite Justin Jefferson routes are that deep dig cut we were talking about.

and then what's called a deep bench route. So it's about 18 to 20 yard outcut off similar stems to the dig. So there's different ways and there's different variations of bench. But it's basically like those routes that break at like 18 to 20 yards that usually you need your best route runner to run those. It might not be your best receiver, but it might be your best technician. Well, it so happens the Vikings, you know, with Justin Jefferson's the same guy. Right.

So like, and he runs them really well. And he's in and out of those breaks. Like he can, he's in and out of those brakes at that route depth so smooth. Like, I mean, you could tell him, okay, it's man coverage. You got to lean and stick more instead of a speed cut. But they look the same at him. They look the same from him because he's just so he's so quick in and out of those breaks. So like those those fit his skill set. And then those crossing routes too, like you're talking about like those high crossers. Like he's really good at creating separation. There was one

example against man coverage in the Dallas game that we talked about that that's a good example of him creating separation against man. And that's the thing too. If you got him on a high crosser against man coverage, like he's winning. If I'm a quarterback, I know it's main coverage and I got Justin Jefferson on a high crossing route. I better get better get my, you know, touchdown celebration ready because that's, that's a win for the offense. Did you think on that play specifically, what did you think went wrong on that? Was it maybe just not the same page or timing or what do you think?

Because I think people know what play we were talking about where he threw it across the middle. It was a little high. Yeah, no, I think the routes were fine. I actually thought the protection held up pretty well. I thought McCarthy should, that that ball is usually with seven and a hitch timing. and it looks like he hitched, you know, maybe two or three times, which allowed the pressure more time to get in.

So I think if he throws that on time, I think the pressure wouldn't be an issue, you know, seven and a hitch let that ball go. And then obviously the throw was high, too. I think the route spacing looked fine to me. The route itself looked fine. So I don't think I would have much as far as like a concept or structure-wise. I think that's just I think the quarterback's got to have a better rep on that one. So before we get into the things that have gone really well for McCarthy,

the last couple of games with KOC. I tried to ask him about adjustments. He did give me the personnel, which he's definitely done. And I think he's worked really well. But then also was kind of like, I can't really tell you all the adjustments that I made schematically, which is totally fair. But when it comes to just playing quarterback with the timing element of NFL offenses today with the challenges that they're facing, this has also kind of become a wider discussion

as Philip Rivers comes back to the league of like, do we have any quarterbacks here? How difficult do you think it is in 2025 to play NFL quarterback for anybody under the age of, say, 30 years old? Yeah, I mean, it's college football is so different, right? So especially young guys coming in, like there's like, once again, Caleb Williams, right? You playing at USC. I'm not a big fan of the Lincoln Riley offense. There's not much reading going on. more just kind of point and shoot type stuff.

Some of the concepts that I, when I put on, like, his tape from college or even when I watch a USC game, like, if it's not a screen, I don't know what they're really trying to do, right? So, like, it's kind of, you're starting from scratch with a lot of these guys. And, like, I mean, I sometimes take for granted, right? I've been, you know, studying, you know, NFL offense. I mean, last year, I wrote 2,000 pages on NFL offense. It's like, I watch a ton of tape.

And, like, sometimes even I have a hard time of what is this coverage, you know, what, what, what should the read, what, you know, the read might be muddy here, you know, it's, it's, it takes some time to figure that stuff out. So you need a coaching staff to kind of guide a young quarterback through that, right? You need someone who's good at that. It takes time. It takes reps and all that. And that all that, that's part of it too.

Yeah, no, that's for sure. And that's the thing about the NFL, though, is that time and reps, there's less practicing, there's less preseasoning, and there's a lot of pressure on these quarterbacks, or I'm sorry, on these coaches and these front offices to have answers right away. And that's kind of the little bit of quagmire that the vice. are in with J.J. McCarthy and what they need to find out in the next three games, but that's not enough to really find out. So it's a tough spot for them. And I think part of the, yeah, before you move on from that point, I think this is something

that just kind of popped into my head with it with the Vikings. Like, I know you and I have talked about this a little bit. I think we actually talked about this at the Combine a little bit. You know, Kevin O'Connell last year, right, some of the best past game design stuff I've seen in the NFL in a while, right, five, seven step stuff. The run game was incredibly, was incredibly basic, right? Which is fine. Like, if you're going to spend all that time on the past game and be good at it. But what happens when that, you know, you got a new quarterback in that, you got a young quarterback in that past game. You can't do all the stuff, right? You're not throwing the stuff with, you know, with the trust that you had previously, right? Well, you got to have the run game to pick it up. And that just hasn't, you know, like I said, I haven't studied the bikies tape as closely, but just anecdotally, like watching games here and there and stuff. Like, it doesn't seem like that has changed much. And if you're going to bring along a young quarterback, you need a run game. Right. And I think, uh, their offensive line. having a lot of guys in and out has made it tougher because I think what they would love to do

is run more outside zone stuff, but you kind of need Christian Derisaw in there to be able to do that. You kind of, you know, Ryan Kelly is pretty good at it. So anyway, I think that that's impacted it. But I don't see, I don't, I will watch sometimes, you know, San Francisco, I think is the gold standard for this and think about like, oh, man, like look at, look at that wrinkle in the run game. Look at that, like, oh, they, they drew this linebacker that way with the fullback. or something. And it doesn't feel like there is the same creative energy there as there is with the passing game. As far as doing it well. So O'Connell made a comment to us maybe two weeks ago that he clearly regrets saying, but sorry, this is what we do is we take your comments

and run with them about simplifying things for JJ McCarthy. When you watch the plays that I sent you from the Dallas game. A lot of the ones where McCarthy was succeeding. How do you view that through a lens of, like, does that look like typical KOC stuff, maybe out of different personnel? Does it look like it's a little bit more simplified for him? Like, how did you view those plays? Yeah, that's all stuff that, that they ran previously.

Like, simplify, like, coach, like this is such, it's, I have such a hard word, a hard time when I hear coaches say, and like, I've been guilty of it too, like we need to simplify, right? Or like, oh, the answer, we're struggling, we need to simplify. because it's like, all right, what you need to do is you need to find out what your quarterback's good at. Yeah, builds from there, right? So, like, I don't know if you call that simplifying because you still need to build it out, right?

Because if you're, especially in the NFL, if you're going to run a handful of plays, you're going to get figured out quicker than, you know, quicker than you would otherwise. So, and like, as far as like a read structure, like some of those are trickier. Like, there was an example of fourverts from two by two. Like, yeah, they got a pretty static look there

and ended up being covered too. And McCarthy, you know, ripped the ball three and a hitch, you know, really well from gun like that's a big boy throw like three and a hitch it's on four verts against cover two that's a that's a that's a big boy throw at the NFL level um but like that play in particular right that's a coverage replay you can't pure progress it because all the routes are doing the same thing right if i go one two three to four down to my checkdown uh you're gonna be late for everything but one you know so like you're you can't do it that way so it's a coverage replay um you know you alert your matchups on the outside you kind of seem to seem it um down to

your checkdown. And, you know, that's not, I wouldn't say that simple, right? Because like, now we're back to our earlier discussion, right? Coverage reads are, you know, the stuff Kurt Warren or Tom Brady and those guys, you know, harp by, but like at the same time, those guys sat for three years before playing and, you know, we're savvy veterans by the time they were having success, right? Oh, and you know, the all world success that we're talking about that we remember them by, right? So, you know, that in of itself, yeah, that's a complex, you know, everybody runs for virtue down to the high school level, but like the read of it at the NFL level is not what you would call simple. So yeah, I think that's as far as like how we get

simple or how we're simplifying. It's a very interesting discussion and how every, every coach views it differently too. The way I looked at that comment was not, hey, we're going to change up and run a bunch of different concepts. It was we're going to have less madness at the line of scrimmage. Maybe I've seen him do a lot, a lot less. Some people call it. There's two different ways to do it one is kill kill they don't use that they use something else can yeah they're right so instead of instead of we have not seen him be like can can can like changing plays a lot i think that they're kind of this is a guess but i think they're sort of sending in the play and running the play no that's a great that's a great example of simplifying just calling it like a call it run at play right so

what you're talking about is you call play in the huddle um you know okay they they they walk down their strong safety uh to where we want to run the ball okay we're going to can it we're going to run a different run the other way or we're going to call the bootleg off of it or whatever, right? Like, that's, that's what you're referring to there. And that's, um, yeah, taking that away is less, less thinking for the quarterback. But at the same time, okay, now you, you have only, you have less plays you can call because you got to call only all purpose stuff. So yeah, that, that's another example of simplifying that that could be probably are doing. And I see a little less pre-snap motion that's timing motion, because I think timing motion is

really tough or you got a guy coming across and you got to snap it right as he's going into his motion. It's been a lot more shifting. Like, okay, shift over here. Now we run the play. I think it's more along the lines of the details of it. And I also think, oh, sorry, I mean, I think they've tried to work the edges a lot more, like the outside type of stuff, as opposed to, I think O'Connell loves to attack the middle of the field because maybe that's a little bit more what he's comfortable with. I think the biggest issue, and obviously it's simplified can mean a lot of things. But I think the biggest issue is when a coach says they need to simplify or they have simplified, it's an admission of whatever they were doing was not working, right?

That's what that. Very simply, right, that's what that means. And like admitting it and saying it out loud, it's hard to say out loud. Yeah, no, I definitely agree with that. What I've always said is that the, you know, from a fan perspective, there's nothing that they like to hear more when things aren't working is simplify because it just sounds like the right thing to do. Like, oh, they must have been too complicated for him when it might just mean we have to have to do something a little bit different in one way or another. And I think also going with a very run first approach on first down and then play action off of it and also getting in the big guys, the fullback, the tight ends. That's helped with the past protection. I think it's given him more underneath

options and stuff like that. So I think there has been some nice adjustments that Kevin O'Connell has made that's helped J.J. McCarthy. One of the. bigger questions coming out of the Cowboys game, though, was, like, how much of it was the Cowboys because they are super bad? So what did you think of that? Like, when you looked at some of the plays that succeeded, was that more the offense, more McCarthy, or more, what are you doing, Dallas? Well, the one throw we talked about, the fourverts against their cover two, that's a big boy throw. The window is there, but like that happens, you know, like defenses that play cover to Tampa too.

Like, yes, there are defenses that play it much better. But like McCarthy did it and he trusted it. He threw it on time. Was that the Hawkinson? Was that to Hawkinson? Is that the play you're talking about? It's pulling up the left seam. Yep, yep, yep.

That's the hoggins. Yeah, yeah. So that one. And then I think it was the first, the first one in your article. I think it was that that corner route off the bootleg. Yeah. The same side bootleg, the duo play fake, getting to the bootleg on the same side there. That's not an easy throw.

Rolling to your left, making that throw. That's an example of simplifying. Like, whenever you call more. keepers like that like those are simpler reads it's kind of like those are those have to be pure progressions right because the coverage doesn't matter because we're just high medium to low or however you want to read it alert the high and you know medium to low or if you want to start with the low because you're designing that first in the flat to be open however you want to read it that has to be a pure progression and it's like the coverage doesn't matter because

we're trying to beat the coverage with the play fake and then the routes like associated with it right so like that's in it that was that was a good throw good timing coming out of it good good recognition because that that throw on keepers we're not usually looking at that right away and if you see it you can't be late on those throws like once again bears example i'm sure your viewers remember the Caleb williams interception uh up in green bay from two weeks ago right where there where he's a half a second late that route's open he's a half a second late and it's an interception right so it's like the timing still matters on that stuff right we're being simpler but like the timing is still critical so um yeah there was definitely some stuff in there um that i

thought that, you know, the offense and then obviously McCarthy did really well. You know, Dallas is still a professional defense and they still, you know, they're still getting paid too. But at the same time, yeah, their defenses, you know, of all the defenses I've watched on tape this year, I mean, they get gashed on a weekly basis on some of the most basic stuff, too. Yeah. I mean, that is the trouble is that when you look at their history for this year, Justin Fields had a great game. Russell had a great game. Like, there's guys who are really not good who have. But at the same time, I think a better fit for McCarthy, comfortable, confident throughout this game in sync as you described.

Yeah, lots, a lot more confident, which I think that you can, right, build and build and build, which is really the last question I have for you, Bobby, after watching some of this. And I'm, you know, you're aware of what he had done previously. Is, should they, should they go forward with working with this, build off these ideas? Or do you feel like it's going to be pretty tough to succeed? Like, how would you? I mean, I know that's a tough question. That's only giving you.

You know, those two options. There's a lot of gray area. But just how did you feel about it coming out of watching that? You know, there's good and bad, obviously. But I think what matters the most is like the process, the process, right? Like, what's the process like behind closed doors? Is he receptive to what the coaches are doing? Is he trying to work on these things in practice?

You know, obviously on Sundays, we only see, you know, however made 20, 30 throws, you know, and it might be a lot of some of those are screens, right? So you're only getting so many, you're getting a small sample size each week of this, of what his progress could be. So you might not see it week to week, right? You know, it might show up once. But, you know, the trend line over the year, right? Kind of how's that?

Are we, are we headed in the right direction? Are we headed in the wrong direction? So, like, I would have to, you know, what's the attitude behind closed doors as far as, like, trying to correct a lot of the mistakes, trying to build the trust. Is he building the trust in practice? Like, is he letting these rip in practice, but he's just kind of getting wet feet in a game? You know, what are these things that that can kind of be shaken out as with more experienced reps, you know, full speed?

like, you know, all that stuff plays into it. So it's like from where I said it's hard to answer, right? I mean, it's like, oh, he clearly doesn't have it. But like there have been quarterbacks that don't have it the other first year starting. And then year two, year three, they look great, you know, and they just, you know, move on from there. Right. So it's, but with a lot of those quarterbacks, when you talk to compete coaches on those staff, it's like, yeah, it was just you couldn't see the results of your one, right?

Like we're working through it, you know, whether, you know, oh, he, he just, for whatever reason he couldn't get past this mental block or, oh, we finally figured out what concepts work well for him and you know whatever whatever that might be so it's hard it's hard to answer without being in the building seeing the day-to-day progress because in my in my opinion that's what should drive the decision on him right like obviously the games matter but like you can you can get that progress if you're doing the right things behind the scenes and i don't think that there has been you know a tipping of the hand either way like o'connell has not come out and said this this is our quarterback guys you could criticize them all you

want, but, uh, you know, he's our guy. But he also hasn't said, yeah, I don't know. It's just not really getting it. You know what I mean? He's, he is, uh, weaved around all that stuff and, uh, not been super committal one way or the other. And I think that in part is because you have to see the whole picture. You can't just see X percentage of it when you think about it. And I've brought this up a few times with the audience, but like he's played eight games. The next three, if we do the math, what is three out of 11? I mean, mean, that's like 28% or something of his total games that he's ever played. It's like almost one third of his games that he's ever played is going to be these next three.

So there's a lot more sample to build on J.J. McCarthy before we have much more concrete answers. Bobby Peters, you are the best, my friend. You have big giant football brain. And if people are into big giant football brain content, alert the post is brilliant. So they can check that out your newsletter. and the 2024 Vikings complete offensive manual. If you want to know how the Kevin O'Connell offense truly works, this is your place to find it.

So, Bobby, thank you so much, my friend, and we will definitely talk again soon. Always a pleasure, Matt. Football.