Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Vikings out-coached the Lions (Hour 2)

Episode Date: November 4, 2025

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And this is a great And this is a great night to be here listening to us because not so much of an enjoyable Monday night football contest there's been a lot of games where I felt like man you know I want to watch the game and you know on the other screen where my eyes are bouncing back and forth but today is not one of them Jacoby Brissette playing manny how about how about that question we'll start with you we'll get Murph in here in just a second start with you on this the question about expectations how much can one game and one result for you change the expectation for the 2,025 Minnesota Vikings?

I think depending on, well, and I think in this particular case, when you consider who the opponent was that you beat yesterday, I think that can change things a lot. You know, especially when you also consider how things kind of changed following the previous game against the Chargers, where that was a team that was kind of banged up on the offensive side, yet Justin Herbert still torched you on defense, and it was basically a no-show on offense. And obviously, we know Carson Wentz wasn't nearly close, wasn't anything close to being 100%.

So, I mean, that really kind of screwed things up for you from the start. But when you look at the opponent that you beat yesterday, the way it looked, the way that you responded offensively, when Detroit goes right down the field and scores a 40-yard touchdown on fourth and four to Sam Laporte are one of the best tight ends in the league and you're I know when I saw that play I was like oh this is going to be one of those games this is going to be 38 to 10 38 to 13 something like that and McCarthy's going to struggle but they took the ball went right down the field and scored and responded and tied the game and then eventually took the lead and and never relinquished the lead at that point so um yeah I think it it changes my perspective quite a bit

on I think what we now believe this team is capable of. The biggest thing, too, is, and you've been talking about it, they got healthy, man, on defense. They got so many key guys back. Andrew Van Ginkle is just such a beast, and getting him back in that defense. You know, we talked about how when you bring guys back, the domino effect that can have on everybody else on the field defensively,

When getting Andrew Van Ginkle back in there, it lessens the workload for Dallas Turner where you're not asking him to do as much as they had been the last couple of weeks. The impact that having Blake Cashman back in that lineup has what it does puts Eric Wilson now in a slot where he can really thrive. And Eric Wilson doesn't have to worry about picking up the slack

from when Cashman was out. So getting the defense back and healthy and seeing what they were able to do on offense with the young, talented quarterback, I think changes my perspective a lot on what this team can now do going forward, especially when you factor in some of the things you talked about Washington. That, what happened with Jane Daniels, that's going to change how that game, you know, when I pick the schedule, that's going to change now how I pick that game, although I think

I've been giving the Vikings a win there. But, yeah, I mean, I think seeing what they did yesterday shows what they're capable of at full strength. And I think it leaves a lot of room now for optimism going forward. How about you, Murph? How much did one game yesterday change your feeling on where we should set the bar? Okay. I can't hear, I can't hear you, Murph. Maybe pop out and pop back in. See if we can get that set up there. But, you know, I agree with you, Manny, that just the way that it happened mattered so much to the conversation because it's not just, oh, you won against the Troy, if they had one on, I don't know, two interceptions that bounced off people's helmets

and fluttered up in the air and they were returned for touchdowns or something, I think we would have said, ah, man, that's just random and, you know, whatever. But in this case, we're talking about outplaying a team pretty significantly. And there's a metric that people use about, like, success rate and just did you actually outplay your opponent? And they clearly did in that game. Now, it wasn't perfect, and it was pretty ugly, but if you can, on a play-to-play basis, cause that many problems for Jared Goff on a play-to-play basis,

cause that many problems for their defense that had been very good so far this season, that's a good-looking football team. And if they had been this team, this roster all year, and then they got a random win, I'd be like, ah, 500 team, that's what they do. They haven't been this roster. There's been half of this roster that has been in. Do we have you now, Murph? Yeah.

Can you hear me? Yes. Are we there? Yeah. Yep. We got you. All right. Fire away.

It's a 180 degrees different than how I felt about them 48 hours ago. I mean, just the aesthetics of that game yesterday and McCarthy's success, I mean, just a total air freshener. I mean, just a blast of oxygen, like that first 70 degree day in March kind of, you know, like it just makes you feel better. But let's put McCarthy aside. The complimentary football that they played yesterday was unlike anything we've seen so far this season. Yes, the roster depletion had a lot to do with that. I just was so impressed with the resilience because, you know, to get trucked down the field like they did and have Laporta literally drag four defenders across the goal line is kind of a recipe for disaster

before McCarthy even gets to take a snap for his yet next turn. at redemption. So for the way that they turned that game around and the way they attacked, they made special teams plays. I mean, if they could just avoid holding, they'd have a great return unit. They made the splash plays we were used to see. And they threw an elite quarterback totally off at this game. They eliminated a running attack. You know, the Gibbs Montgomery tandem had been tearing them apart for a while. They ended a five game losing streak to a division nemenuses on the road. And so it's just the manner in which manner in which they took care of business. But because of the way they took care of business and checked every box, if we'd have

sat down Sunday morning and say, what are the half dozen things they're going to have to do today to win? The Vikings checked them all and probably added a few more things that they really didn't even need or we wouldn't have thought of. I mean, they won the turnover battle. The only thing they did was fall behind. Beyond that, they won the turnover battle. They protected their quarterback. They made key plays, key third downs. They, again, threw off an elite offense at home caused a ton of disruptions and pre-snap penalties and just a lot of chaos. And that's not something you expect to see from a Dan Campbell, Jared Gough led team, especially when you thought it was literally going to be the fifth quarter from week 18 last year, the way that

opening drive looks. So yes, I think it's 180 degree turn. Means nothing, though, unless they take care of business at home these next two weeks because I think that position positions them for an opportunity to kind of go barely about 500 get 10 wins and the schedule that that we thought was so daunting early on seems to be softening by the week because of their opponents coming up and you know it just it it is a snapshot of what we thought they could be so maybe now is where the true scrutiny comes that's a great point about the schedule and one of my Yearly Irritations is when everyone ranks teams by strength of schedule. You're like, you have no idea.

You're trying to figure out week 13. Like this, you know. In May. Right. Exactly. And look, you know, we picked the schedule and stuff and it's a great way to track. It's a, well, it's a great way to track our expectations and feelings and also analyze the other teams they're going to play.

So that's kind of the key to that bit. But when people claim it's like analytics, that's where I get annoyed because it's totally disingenuous. and analytics when you're like, here's their strength of schedule once it comes out. Like, what? I mean, Jane Daniels not even going to play. And that team we thought was going to compete for a Super Bowl, they're horrible as happens every year with certain teams.

So I want you guys to answer that Fandual question of the day. And then I want to talk about your evaluations of McCarthy. We'll get back to answering fan questions here because a lot of really good stuff in the chat. So the fan dual question of the day was now the Vikings, They're not favored to make the playoffs on Fanduil. They're plus 390, Manny. But that's a big jump from where they were last year, last week. How much did your number for the Vikings to make the playoffs, your percentage chance that you would give them?

How much did it go up? Well, after the Chargers game, I thought, I mean, I had it at about 10 to 15% that they were going to make the playoffs just because of, you know, all the injuries they were dealing with, you know, Carson Wentz just being a mess at that point, just physically in the performance and all of that. The way the defense was looking, I thought this was going to be, you know, I thought they were staring at 6 and 11.

Honestly, I'll be totally honest with you. I thought 6 and 11, I think I had them. I think you gave them 8. I think that you were a little more on the optimistic side. The last time I picked the schedule. But, you know, it's, it's, To Merv's point, it's like a completely 180. So I got to go, if I'm thinking 10 to 15% a week ago,

I think I'll go up to about 30% now because of the way the schedule is playing out. Now, again, there's still 4 and 4. And to Mervf's point, these next couple of games against Baltimore and Chicago are really going to, you know, you can go one way or the other here. If you go 0 and 2, then we're kind of right back to where we were after the Chargers game. if you win those two games because they're at home and you're six and four and now you're kind of getting ready to go through a couple of tough games at Green Bay at Seattle. If you have those two wins in your pocket now, I think that puts you in a much better position

into where you find a way to split one of those two games. You're still sitting at seven and five and still in pretty good shape. So I'll go, you know, the next couple weeks are really going to determine a lot, I think. But I think right now after yesterday, I'll bump it up to a. about 30%. Where are you at, Murph? I was probably clinging to 10% last week after the Chargers game, only because I still didn't feel like I had a real assessment of J.J. McCartney. And even after yesterday, we don't have the complete picture, but it's coming into shape. You can see sort of the outlines. You can kind of see what he can do. It finally gives you with a, with a complimentary roster.

So I'm pretty optimistic. I'll go up to 40%. Mani's right, though. These next two weeks to me are critical because if you come out of at six and four, and there's no reason to think you shouldn't. I mean, the bears are doing okay, but they needed a miracle yesterday. You're still at home. You know, Caleb Williams might have, has had problems. I think he may have more problems at U.S. Bank Stadium.

Wild card seems to be a little bit. The Raven seemed to be getting better. you know, obviously Lamar's back, so, but they're still vulnerable. So I just look at that and I think, boy, you come out of that six and four, I don't think it's that difficult to go four and three. I don't think it's that difficult to get four wins on that remaining schedule and end up with 10. But I do think if they split and don't look very good doing it and certainly, you know, it's going to be problematic.

Oh, and two, it's over. And, you know, now we got to see, we saw how McCarthy kind of sort of handled success because he had the fourth quarter in Chicago, but then he was on domestic duty with the birth of his child, didn't really practice. And then that bubble burst quickly at home against Atlanta. So that's something to keep an eye on, too, is that he needs to be great if he could win a game at home. I just feel like it really behooves the Vikings to kind of to use these two games as like the reboot to their season because I think this is where the real scrutiny comes now. It's just this is the team we thought they were going to be.

And they're even at four and four. So what are you going to do over your final nine? And I think that's the true measure of what the 2025 Vikings are going to be. It's funny. Chicago doesn't seem that different to me from last year, except for last year they gave up Hail Mary's and forgot to call timeouts and stuff for the end of the game. This year they've blocked an extra point, had Jayden Daniels fumble and then had whatever

that was in Cincinnati yesterday, three Cincinnati players. being like, you're going to tackle? No, no, no, no one tackled. No one tackle Colson Loveland. So let me circle back to, as you mentioned, J.J. McCarthy and the assessment. I just got done watching every throw and watching JTO Sullivan's QB school, which I highly, highly recommend. Former Minnesota Viking, former about 12 different teams in the NFL World League. Nobody knows more football than him. And his breakdown is extremely fair and really, really detailed. on McCarthy. I gave McCarthy many a C-plus,

and that's, I think, factoring for some of the plays that we forget, some yards that are left out there, an interception that's negated, that's a really bad process throw, but just kind of got away with. The sacks were somewhat concerning. I've never seen someone just do a straight-up

somersault before, like, oh, to be young again, where nothing hurts. But obviously, Every trait, this was the, it's like a, it's like a C plus with some sort of glow around it because every trait that you're sold on for him as a first round pick, running ability, which you and I obsessed over for maybe five or six years of our lives with the quarterback, the arm strength, the velocity on that football, where you go, oh, that one was cooking. And the leadership, the resiliency. I thought once again, he showed all of that. But how would you evaluate or gray J.J. McCarthy? Yeah, I think a C or C plus, I think, is about what I would give him as well.

I mean, I think the most impressive thing I think he did for me that I saw was took the opening possession for them, for the Vikings, and went down and tied the game. That to me, I think, said a lot because we've talked about. almost that nauseam with this team is you fall behind and you're in trouble. You fall behind early and you're in trouble because this defense is not built to play from behind. And you have a young quarterback that, you know, is inexperienced and how is he going to handle, you know, falling behind by two or three scores and he's going to, is he going to be able to throw you back into a game? That was a big question mark.

I think to take that opening possession after you fall down seven nothing and to march right down the field, make some throws. Obviously, the running, you know, Aaron Jones getting off to a good start running the ball was big on that drive too. But to get down and score touchdown right away to respond, because now you're basically back, back at square one, and it's almost like Detroit didn't even score that opening touchdown. I thought that was big because that allowed him, I think, to really kind of stay within the game, not going to a huge, not going to a huge panic mode. I think it allowed the entire team to kind of settle around him as well.

But I, you know, so that was- Yeah, three-in-out would have been fatal. Oh, my gosh. That would have been, like, the game's over, essentially. If you, Detroit goes down and scores, you're down seven-nothing, and then you come out and go three-and-out and punt, it's over. That game is a completely different, completely different result in my mind. So I think getting that was good. You know, some of the nitpicky stuff,

I don't even know if it's nitpicky. It's because it was kind of glaring. There were some misthrows, inaccurate throws. You know, you talked about the interception that was negated. The interception that counted was also a really, really bad throw, throwing it behind Jalen Naylor like that. He had another one where he was kind of scrambling outside, and he kind of threw it behind Jalen Naylor.

He threw it behind and kind of high Jalen Naylor. There was the one where he scrambled and he had Jefferson wide open on the sideline and sailed it five yards over his head. Those kind of things need to be cleaned up. And, you know, but that's going to be, that's now what we're going to be looking for over the next several weeks now is, you know, those rows, is he able to clean some of those things up? So, yeah, I mean, there was, there was some good, there was some bad.

And I think that just comes with having a number of direct that you're trying to, trying to grow and develop. But you know, Murph, when we talk about it. about the game yesterday in terms of, like, yes, things to clean up, mistakes that were made, but also the flashes of what he can be and what he's supposed to be. Finally, we can speak about J.J. McCarthy, the way we're talking about all the other quarterbacks of the 2024 class. Now, I know Drake May has accelerated by the other quarterbacks, but at the same time, last year, it was this way with Drake May, where he

took some bad hits and he held on to the ball too long and he had some inaccurate. and you're sort of going, where's it going? On a much worse Patriots team. Yes. Yeah. And, but, you know, even Bo Nix on a good Denver team had a 62-yard game and had some games where he struggled with his accuracy and he averaged five yards per pass attempt and stuff like that and misthrows. But it's much more normal. Michael Pennix, same thing, where at times Pennix has sprayed the ball over the place. He's not a fully complete picture quarterback yet, but you're seeing the high-end type of stuff and how the team

responds to him, Murph. I think it's like, I want to give C plus, but with asterisks that say stuff like team responded to him awesome and really seemed to care. And also, you know, KOC, we'll get into KOC, but I thought gave him tons of opportunities to make those plays. But give me your breakdown. I think he was living mostly in the C to C plus range or just as a C range, most of the game. but the third down dagger and the conversion to nailer I think I want to I want to push him up to a B minus and then as you were saying that it kind of occurred to me too yeah you look at the numbers they weren't gaudy at all and there were some you know fan fingered kind of moments but things that stood out to me is as many said the answer after Detroit's opening drive which really could have shaken that whole sideline to the core especially after we come to find out they were having a open up a vein kind of meeting in the team hotel to kind of lay it all on the table. We learned that post game, but how devastating that really could have been. So answering that with a scoring strike, you know, answering and responding when the Vikings

get the fumble off Gibbs and they're in Lions territory. And that drive ends with him going, you know, what, bootleg right, I guess. I mean, just he had space, but he had to take the corner. He had a safety closing in like a battering ram, and he still got the pylon, very reminiscent, of course, to week one in Chicago. And look, Carson Wentz is not making that run. I don't know if Sam Darnold makes that run, and I'm pretty sure Kirk Cousins doesn't make that run. So I look at those kinds of plays, the Naylor completion, the touchdown strike with his legs, and also the answer. after the Lions opening drive, how timely those plays were matter so much more than a 350-yard game would

because they kept the game either from spinning out of control early or allowed the Vikings to really seize control and take that 10-point lead and really just kind of silence Ford Field for the rest of the day. So the timely plays that he made, I'll give him a B-minus. Yeah, I mean, that's what I mean about like it's a B-minus, but the good stuff was really good. The bad stuff didn't devastate them, but it could have in several instances. And I think, though, what I'd really like to see, and we're just going to have to wait to see it, because every week we're going to evaluate and grade and break down every throw and that sort of thing. But if you take those things that were good, which I think will travel, arm strength travels,

athleticism travels, moxie travels, week to week to week to week in the NFL, If you get a little bit more consistent with, you know, the touch on the football, the nailer throw is exactly what he's been talking about. Throttle down the Excel. You can almost see him like, okay, do not whip this football. Like, it's almost talking to himself. Like, just do not throw this 100 miles an hour and he drops it right in. And there were a couple other throws where he did that too.

But then there's five where he goes, nope, I'm still J.J. McCarthy that throws the ball 7,000 miles an hour, and the ball that was overruled as a catch for Jefferson, which still struggling to fully understand that the ball can't even sniff the grass if it's in, if it's not, I don't know, pin to your body and not moving at all. I just, we've eliminated great catches and that sucks, but it's a bad throw. It's a lawyer's league now. It's, it is, but it's a bad throw. It's exactly the throw that he's been trying to improve on where he needs to anticipate better, he needs to be technically better.

There was something he did where he's sometimes, instead of just saying straight up and then turning and throwing, like you see Darnold do all the time, his whole body will kind of drop and then pop back up and it just causes it inaccuracy. And that happened on that play. And I think that if he gets more consistent with the technical stuff, practicing every week, week after week after week, and builds on it. That's where you're talking about forming a complete quarterback. So it's, that's why my grade is a asterisk.

And at the bottom, if I'm the teacher, I write, love where you're going, though. Like, love, love, love where you're headed with all this. Appreciate you showing your work. Right. Exactly. Exactly. Showing your traits. The, the, the conversation about the defense.

Well, let's talk COC first. Then we'll get to the defense. You know, with, with COC, I think we know that. He's not the type of guy that is going to suddenly, like, struggle to connect with players or whose optimism will be burned out. And he's going to start doing crazy stuff in the locker room like Mike Zimmer hacking up the stuffed animals or whatever. Like, we just, we know, we just know that's not him, right? Cats get slaughtered. Yep, the fat cats get slaughter.

We know. And if you don't remember, Google it. We know that's not him. but I think what he really needed in this game was not just, like you said, to turn it over to the captains and to try something a little bit different, let their message really resonate with the team. I thought that that was a good play for them. But I also thought he needs to call a great game. And at the end, I think we can all agree that, yeah, you should just be running the ball. It just should be three handoffs. And if it goes nowhere, you're going to win the game because they won't have enough time left. And I will say, there are teams with their person standing on the sideline to say to the coach, hey, you need to do this here. I don't know if he communicates enough with Ryan Cordell, who's in charge of that. There's no analytics person who would say, yeah, stop the clock twice. Like, so I think maybe he needs to lean on his guy there in a situation like that.

Because after the game, he didn't see when Sefer had asked him about it, he didn't seem to like process that he had given Detroit a chance to win the game by mismanaging the clock. but to me those things that is a forest through the trees that is like don't miss the bigger picture here guys were wide open they used jefferson brilliantly to draw attention elsewhere they ran the football well erin jones was super involved uh they blocked it up and he gave McCarthy easy options for a lot of the game now i thought in the second quarter he got a little bit into hmm i think i will pass and you know what i will pass again but i also think that some people have to get over it.

Like, get over the fact that he's going to lean on the quarterback. Just get over it. Like, he's never going to run. And this is me too. I'm talking to myself. He's never going to run for a second and third down over and over and over and over again. It's not going to happen. And in the biggest moments, whether it's goal line or third down to end the game,

he's going to say quarterback win us the game. That's how it's always going to be. And you know what that's going to do is we're really going to find out what McCarthy's made of because that's how it's going to be. I thought he called overall. a flat out excellent game when they needed it the most. Did you see it that way, Mr. Hill? Yeah.

I mean, I think, like you said, the opportunities were there. The receivers were open. There were throws that, you know, honestly, if a veteran, if a good veteran quarterback were playing in that game instead of J.J. McCarthy, and this is not a slander of J.J. McCarthy. He is who he is right now, a 22-year-old. who has not played a lot of games in the NFL. But I think a veteran quarterback who's been in the league for a decade

who's really good would have gone out and executed a lot of those throws. I think if honestly, and this is crazy coming from me because I've been the biggest critic of Kirk Cousins for, you know, the last six, seven years. But I think if Kirk Cousins were quarterbacking the game yesterday, you know, the scrambling plays that McCarthy made wouldn't have happened with Kirk. But I think some of the throws, some of the throws that McCarthy missed in the game yesterday, I think Kurt would have nailed those passes just because he's a veteran guy that's played in the league for a long time and has been very productive.

And I think that's because Kevin O'Connell really called a good game and called the right, dialed up the right plays and the right situations. And I think in the case of McCarthy, it's just, you know, the little things that need to be cleaned up, the more experience he gets, the more practice he gets, all of that stuff is really, you know, the play calling of O'Connell and the development of McCarthy, I think, is going to come together really well, eventually over time. And I think it's going to be good.

And I think that's a really good sign now for where this team is headed overall, that they have a head coach who has a clear vision of what they want to do on offense. And it's just going to take a little bit more time, I think, for the quarterback to really kind of mesh and continue. to fit in with that. What did you think of the coaching? Oh, I thought it was fantastic. I think it might have been one of his best coaching jobs in Minnesota. I mean, it's hard for me to chair. You know, he's 0.2 in the playoffs. He lost that game to Detroit last week at the end of the season. So it's hard for me to cherry pick all the

great regular season games of, you know, past. But where the team was mentally, physically, the scrutiny that was on him for the play calling, for managing Wence's injury, for, you know, getting a little bit defensive when asked for more daily updates on McCarthy. And it just, you could feel the walls closing in a little bit on him. And he hadn't really had to deal with it. I mean, he had the cousins, Achilles fiasco to deal with, which was almost more tragic than it was, you know, crisis. And this felt like he was, you know, he could be losing grip on not necessarily.

the locker room, but just on the season and where things really, how badly you could get. As Manney said, he was looking at 6 and 11, and that really could have happened. So I think just overall for him to have empowered the team, you know, even Monday, you know, to say, look, I'm not going to deal with you much, but, you know, on Saturday, we're going to lay it all on the table. And, I mean, maybe it was a way to bring in some more people to blame if things really went off the rails yesterday. But I thought it was really a smart thing to do because it made sure.

sure everybody was invested in the locker room and that there really was no turning back from where they were and McCarthy needed to be supported as well as he could. So all of that being said, the play calling to me was impressive, especially on the opening drive. I mean, he might have been tempted to not stay with the run game. And the run game set up everything that happened on that opening touchdown drive and really allowed McCarthy to probably calm down and feel good about himself and let the offensive line feel good about itself. I mean, they were able to to, you know, clear some lanes and make some things happen with that crowd roaring and, you know, the Lions defense front ready to attack and to be able to kind of push them around and set up

some good pass plays. I never felt like in, I never felt like McCarthy was in set up to fail at any particular moment. I think the things that happened were probably other breakdowns are just, you know, him misfiring. But I never felt like he was put in a terrible position other than the seven nothing. to start. So I think it was, yeah, I think it was KOC's best week in terms of game planning and team management that he's had here. The one that comes to mind for me that was very similar was San Francisco 2023. Now I know where that season went because of the injury to Kirk Cousins, but that felt like a season on the brink as well and looked like it could crash and burn

if they don't get a win there. And then they obviously go to Green Bay. That's where Kirk gets hurt. but they get a win in that game. San Francisco was Super Bowl contender. They actually went to the Super Bowl that year, and they pulled out a tremendous game plan against the 49ers, got that big home run ball at the end of the half to Jordan Addison, great play call, you know, that so forth. That felt like yesterday, where the kitchen sink came out for Kevin O'Connell.

The one thing I would say, and it might be a little bit of just a thought for rather than a criticism, but just a thought, is there will be times. and watch me use this Gen Z language. There will be times where J.J. McCarthy is kind of crashing out in a game, where I felt a bit in the second quarter that it got a little chaotic, a little fast, a little bit. Well, he had that tip ball that looked like it was going to go to somebody else that lands in Hawkinson's hands. And then he's got, you know, the crazy throw down the field that didn't make any sense that got negated.

And there were a few sacks. And there's the somersault. and you're like, okay, a lot's happening right now for J.J. McCarthy. If you're going to have, say you're going to have 10 easy button plays on your play sheet, don't use them all in the first quarter. The screen, you know, that gets them a first down on third down, the swing pass to Aaron Jones. Like, have those in your pocket. And maybe he didn't, wasn't able to use them.

But have those in your pocket for McCarthy to get a bucket. Because I feel like what's really important for a young quarterback is, to sort of see the ball go through the hoop like get that easy completion get a good a nice good gain on something where you didn't have to do a whole lot a screen you know a quick real quick pass or just something to get him going a swing pass right exactly get a layup get a layup and i thought that as they went along it was almost like he went woohoo my quarterback's playing really well like let's let's dial it up and then it was okay now you got to rein it back a little bit. But overall,

an excellent game for O'Connell and maybe even a better game for Brian Flores. One of the best performances we've seen from this defense in some ways. Not the tackling all the time. Certainly not in the coverage all the time. And

I think those weaknesses aren't going away unless they make a trade, which we'll get to because that discussion is happening now with this week being the trade deadline. But just in terms of the defensive game plan, Manny, I I not only saw, like, so many things that made me go, oh, yeah, Andrew Van Ginkle, everyone, but the usage of Eric Wilson was just sick.

I mean, well, well done to flip that guy's role on his head and just be like blitz, blitz, blitz, we're going to take advantage that Jimir Gibbs is a small guy. We're going to keep him in the backfield. You have to, you can't just send guys up the middle like it's mad, and you have to pair those with technique from the defensive tackles who were really on point, moving bodies and stuff to create lanes. I mean, it was art at times. I thought it was some of his best work as well.

But how much, manny, do we want to take what we saw there and say, well, they're elite now on defense. Can we go that far? Or are we also saying, because the Detroit guys were saying to me after the game, hey, we, you know, we were concerned about this interior offensive line once upon a time with Frank Reg now retiring. So how do you kind of weigh the different things that happen there? Yeah, what you brought up about Eric Wilson? And it kind of reminded me of when Mike Zimmer had a great game plan against the Saints for that playoff game in 2019, where he took Everson Griffin and Daniel Hunter and put them

on the interior and let them rush up the middle because that's how you beat Drew Breeze is you get right in his face, get guys right in his face. Yeah, I'm not ready to call this an elite unit yet because. of the issues that you laid out in the secondary, which has been kind of a thing. We know Isaiah Rogers had that great game against Cincinnati, but it's been really up and down for him ever since. And that's one of your starting corners. Byron Murphy Jr.'s a good player, but again, it's kind of up and down with him sometimes. So I'm not ready to call them elite yet, but it was nice, I will say it was nice to see, you know,

the two defensive tackles kind of do what you brought them here and paid them a lot of money to do, which is apply a lot of pressure up the middle and disrupt things for guys like Jared Goff, who when you do get pressure on him for as great as Jared Goff is and for as fantastic as he's been the last few years with the Lions especially, you get some pressure on him. You can kind of rattle him a little bit and you can kind of throw him off platform and it's not quite as easy for him and he kind of turned into an ordinary quarterback at times if we're able to get pressure on him. So that part of it was good and, you know, sort of the specific scheming that Brian Flores did for a game like this and a matchup like this, I thought was really

impressive. And it does kind of show like, yeah, Brian Flores does know how to do this. He does know how to coordinate a defense. But at the same time, you know, you still want to see, better from your secondary, but I don't know outside of a trade, like you talked about, I don't know if that improvement in your secondary is really going to come, you know, from within or come naturally. You're going to have to go out and get somebody to really kind of help bolster that part of the unit. How good can they be, Murph? I mean, they've got some tough games coming up here, going against Lamar Jackson, no easy task. And even Chicago's offense had open receivers on the first night of the season, was winning in that

game. You know, they eventually will face Dallas that's a really exciting office. Like this, it's not going to be easy going to Green Bay, even though they lost Tucker Kraft. There's a lot that has to be proven here. Oh, they got a lot to prove, no doubt. I mean, it really was their first time where they had the full compliment and fully healthy to, to be able to, especially up front. I think, you know, their their softness in the secondary has been well documented. I don't know if it's going to be the death of them. per se, but I think they get in vulnerable positions and they're susceptible to big plays. But on the flip side, they're, you know, they're prone to making the big play too.

And I think that, you know, not only were they able to get a lot of pressure on golf and bring it from up the middle, which is usually not where it comes from, they really just took away their running game. And I thought, you know, to be able to, you know, the reason Gibbs was taken the a pitch, I think, inside the five, and eventually, you know, which he bobbled, I don't think he ever got full controlled ball, ends up having it punched out by Hargrave. And it's just, it's funny that, you know, if you see how the, you know, the Vikings take advantage of that, they also found a way to, I think, really just kind of set the tone, you know, because when they had been giving up, so many chunk yardage running plays, it was really

demoralizing and you could sense the air being sucked out of them a bit. So to be able to assert themselves the way they were on the road and really just have that offensive line, now granted Detroit's offensive line was vulnerable up the middle. So they attacked that vulnerability, which you should do. The fact that they were able to create so much havoc and pre-snap penalties and really just have them out of sorts after that opening drive and hats off for adjusting quickly to that as well, they have an opportunity to make the splash play and keep, you know, flipping the fields, making a little easier on McCarthy and really what benefited them so much despite falling behind was the fact that McCarthy's competent play and the fact that

he was able to drive them right down the field and not turn a three and out and turn them back on the field, already tired, already trailing, already picked apart. It allowed them to play a little bit bigger the next time they took the field and puff out their chest. Hey, we're tied. The young kid you know, answered. And that, again, is that complimentary football, you know, that psychological aspect of not feeling like you, it's on you to save the game. And we're going to have to do it in the fourth quarter. And we don't know if we have a quarterback that's going to be capable of throwing us back into the game or even forging a comeback or even just sustaining drives so we can catch our breath and maybe go hopefully steal the game. So let's see how the orchestra plays

together the next couple of weeks they've got the crowd uh the two home games i think they're poised to really uh to to really prove if if this was a one-off or if this is something they can build upon well the reason i wouldn't think it's a one-off is because i know the players and they just didn't have those players i mean with blake cashman for example uh last time out his first game since being injured and it's a very big difference uh that it makes to have him at 100% and we saw The real Harrison Smith, blitzing off the edge, knocking down a key pass. Like, oh, yeah, that's right. He hasn't been 100% really all season long.

And now he looks explosive again. And you just can't say the name Van Ginkle enough times. But give Brian Flores credit, too, for putting out there, Jalen Redman played defensive end. They played a lot of three, four stuff, stuff that you would have seen, I don't know, the Dom Capers, Panthers or something using back in the. the day or the Pittsburgh Steelers, they were using real three, four type of defenses that had gone away in favor of just straight up nickel around the NFL, where everyone was just playing nickel all the time.

And they put a lot of big people on the field, which helped them stop Jemir Gibbs, stop that running game from being consistent. And then this defense, we know this. They are going to give up some big plays. They did it last year when they had a top-notch defense. They gave up some big plays. but where they get it back is in turnovers. And this year they have not done that.

Sacks and turnovers have to be a part of this. And if they're not, you're just not going to be any good. Or you're not going to be elite. They have to make plays like the five sacks they got of Jared Gough. I think he lost 44 yards to sacks. Like, that's a lot. And then, you know, getting the strip there, was that Gibbs or was it Montgomery? But either way, like popping it out from Montgomery.

Montgomery, yeah. Yeah, it was Montgomery. are popping it out from his arm like that's that's what they have to do and when they do that they're a very very different team uh i want to have a quick conversation about the trade deadline and then get you guys take on some other things bigger picture in the NFL because what a day it was yesterday holy cow um i'm going to give the most boring take so then you guys can't so you guys have to make it a hotter take on the trade deadline the boring take is this okay clearly if there's you can add in the secondary, you just have to do it because you're really short there.

And you don't want Fabian Moreau or Dwight McLaughern to have to play the rest of the season a corner. You'd love to add something there. That's great. I don't think any of us want them to give up the farm in a year where you might not end up with getting in the playoffs. Even if you play well the rest of the season, even if you're above 500, the rest of the year, you might not get in.

That's not the time to go selling out. So there's the boring take. Like, sure, I'd love a corner. And don't go selling the farm. Give me something different, Manning. I'd say if you can go get an elite corner, do it. I mean, I think because we've seen in the past what, you know, with other teams that have won championships, you know,

and I'm not saying Vikings are guaranteed to go to the Super Bowl. They trade for an elite corner. But we've seen the kind of impact that back in half on a defense. And we know that the weak link in this defense is the secondary right now. And again, we talked about getting Andrew Van Ginkle back, the domino effect that had on everybody else, you know, on that front seven. If you go get an elite corner,

think about the domino effect that's going to have on somebody like Isaiah Rogers, somebody like Byron Murphy Jr., who's a good player, but is he a number one corner? Yeah, probably not, but he's probably a really good number two corner. So I think if you can find a way to go get an elite corner, then you do it. The question is just going to be, how much is that going to cost?

And is it going to be somebody that you're going to be able to keep as part of this team long term? Because if it's a rental, even for that guy's elite, given where you're at in the standings right now, I don't think it would make a lot of sense to do it. But if you can do it and it's a guy that can stick around here for a few more years, I say you've got to pull the trigger on it. That would be the big thing. Rick Wallen keeps coming up, but I think with Seattle playing like they're playing, I don't think that you can do that.

If you're Seattle, that you can pluck a player who's been playing that much, even if he's been struggling at times off of your team. Denzel Ward has been out there for a while, that idea and Cleveland really should be selling. Give me something spicy, Murph. Well, I don't think there's a lot of spice in the interior of the offensive line, is there? and there's very, I mean, center might be the blandest position on the field,

but perhaps the most important. I have no idea what the center market is. I don't know what the center market is at this newfangled trade deadline that the NFL has tapped into. Yeah, elite corner help can win ball game, can win games with big plays and big moments. Reliable center play can help your developing quarterback and fortify an offensive line that just still seems. to be teetering here. Now, they played well yesterday. There were still a couple of balls on the ground or a couple of things that happened. I didn't understand. I don't know if that's because of the lack of chemistry with McCarthy and Juergens or Randall or whatnot. But, you know, you took a

swing with Kelly and obviously, you know, clearly he's injury prone and suffering a concussion. I don't know what the risks are out there. But I think if you have a, you know, a savvy, healthy contributing, you know, center, at least maybe even for better depth, if not to start. I mean, that's a little bit of black pepper on white rice compared to an elite corner, but that's the best I got. Well, that's, you know, correct, though, Murph is that if a team is selling a center, it's hard to be a center, though, because there's so many words and things in the playbook you have to come in mid-season.

Right. It's hard enough to come in as a tackle. And I think is one of the more. straightforward positions of you block that guy, but we saw, you know, it wasn't so easy for Cam Robinson last year. But, you know, I think that the center position has at least been mildly stabilized by Brandel and he played well against Detroit overall. They did a good job against their interior. So that one is you just have to survive that until Ryan Kelly comes back, if Ryan Kelly comes back, which COC did say today that he's starting some work on the side.

I don't love that for him and his long-term outlet or outlook. I think that it would be smarter for him. But, you know, I'm not, you know, I don't know all the details and I'm not a doctor and all that stuff. And I'm hopeful that we don't have to talk about injuries a lot more because that just is not my forte. But let's, let's before we wrap up, just talk about what we saw yesterday. The Buffalo Bills handling the Kansas City Chiefs, I mean, gosh, defense for. from a week-to-week basis, guys. I mean, you would have thought two weeks ago,

you would have thought Buffalo's defense is a wreck. They're getting run over by Bijan Robinson or three weeks ago, whenever that was. Wow, they can't stop much on that defensive side. And then these last couple of weeks, they've been fantastic. They pressured Mahomes like crazy. They did not let him get off all the short stuff. End of the game, they close it out, getting, you know, the interception.

Just, just fantastic, fantastic work by the Buffalo. bills. They are not the favorite on Fanduil to win the Super Bowl. It is still Kansas City at plus 550, but the bills at plus 650. Philadelphia made a trade today for Jalen Phillips. They're plus 750. The Lions still up there along with the Packers

at plus 9, or I'm sorry, the Rams at plus 900. The Packers have dropped to plus 1,100 after losing Tucker Kraft. So give me this, Manny, and then Merv, like you're one thing. And I know you have a tendency to be like, hey,

one thing is these three things. One thing, Manny, give me one thing from yesterday that around the league was your big, oh, I guess it's like that. I'll give it my one thing. My one thing with is the Cincinnati Bengals are a mess. No, I disagree. They are super fun and I'll never forget them. I love them. I love them. I want to watch every single Bengals game. It's the stupidest football. It's match in it's college football i will never forget you 2025 uh joe flacco looking like viny test the birdie out there it's magic it's pure magic but where you're going with this though they're impacting real results around the league by being a complete joke yeah well it they are and you know i i bring it up though because of something that we've kind of talked about

you know with the vikings over the last couple of weeks when you when it comes to like a young quarterback and how is the offense going to do enough for the defense playing complimentary football the bengals got two they got two offensive players you got your superstar wide receiver and you're i guess starting running back chase brown um basically just taking little subtle shots at the defense for not being able to get a stop was it subtle um that's a good point it was not very something at all. But yeah, I mean that and I think that in itself is just going to be interesting to see how things kind of play out the rest of the year. If this somehow, you know, does Joe Flacco, does his play continue to sort of maybe galvanize this team and keep them in

a lot of games and make those games entertaining or does a superstar wide receiver throwing the defense under the bus completely throw things into the tank and the next thing you know, they're four and 13 and there's no point because right now they're talking about joe burrow coming back in mid-december i don't know if you'd even want to bring him back if they're if they're if they're four and 10 like why would you want to bring him that back for the last three games of the season right would not make any sense but you know from now until then though it's going to be fascinating to see how things kind of play out for them okay here's real quick before i get to murf because you threw me for a loop here I was not ready, but let me look at their upcoming schedule.

So here's my prediction about the Bengals. Oh, yes. Oh, my gosh. They have so many relevant games. They're playing a lot of, they're going to mess somebody up at some point. Somebody's season will be screwed up because Joe Flackow's got a dagger. Yes. Yes.

He did it to Pittsburgh. He will strike again. This guy has. They have the Ravens twice. That's right. They're going to play. after this, they have the Steelers again and then the Patriots, the Ravens, the Bills and the Ravens is their schedule. And at the end of the season, it's kind of a joke after that.

But this next run of games could be the funniest four-game stretch. Every game is 42 to 38. Every game is Flacco. And Flacco finishing the season after showing up mid-season with 4,000 yards is going to make me laugh so hard. Okay. Murph, how about you? Around the league, what really popped for you yesterday? Or what was the, how did you tee up, Manny? You had a nice phrase. I wanted to piggyback off of it.

So that's how it's going to be. Oh, yeah, yeah. Something like that. Yeah. Oh, that's how it is. Yeah. That's how it is. Yeah, that's how it is Dan Quinn. I don't understand what he was thinking. I think he's got a lot of respect throughout the league. Why Jaden Daniels was in that game in garbage time last night and how he ended up suffering a really ugly looking elbow injury. that's going to sideline him for quite some time. He's already been battling a hamstring and a knee injury. Has there been a more, I don't want to say startling, but surprising kind of fall, not so much Daniels, but an organization star. I mean, we thought before the season,

Washington could be a Super Bowl contender. They were the sexy hot pick because they had defeated Detroit on the road in the playoffs, because Daniels was this up-and-coming star and because Washington had been so starved for anything positive in the Dan Snyder era. So there was a sense that this was a team that was going to make a move. And now they're sitting at three and six and quarterback Mershon Lattimore's out for the season. And now Quinn came out today and said, yeah, I blew it. I had our franchise quarterback on the field when I shouldn't.

And now he's a wreck. So I kind of wonder. I don't feel like Quinn is on a hot seat per se, but I just to see somebody mismanaged like that, an asset mismanaged that much, it also makes you maybe appreciate, even though it was a little eye-rolling at times, how much swaddling the Vikings have done with J.J. McCarthy,

both on his expectations and just about his whole ankle injury. So, you know, maybe it was good that he didn't go out and play against L.A. or Philadelphia. Oh, yes. It was. I mean, that could have been a horrible. situation. So I just look at what's going on in Washington and wonder, you know, who's in charge and why is Daniels like getting murdered by his own team? Yeah. I think with Daniels, this was one of those failure to launch seasons where he got hurt right away and then was not right. And then you never get in a rhythm. The big move that they made was Debo Samuel. He's hurt a lot. He's older. Those are some of the

offseason moves that we tend to absolutely love and then they don't really have the impact that you think they didn't have the greatest off season where I expected them to add a bunch of talent and they kind of didn't Laramie Tunsell they traded for as they're all in move but their defense was still pretty mediocre. But we also see, I mean, look, C.J. Stroud was the hottest quarterback out there for a year and has never taken the next step. We've kind of seen that with a lot of quarterbacks. Tyler Murray. Yeah, right, where they have like a big season and we just have huge expectations.

And then maybe reality sets in or maybe injury strikes. And that's happened to Kyler Murray. And it's happened to Daniels. I think if there's a major concern, it is that. Like, that was a concern of coming out. Like, this guy does have a slight frame. And if he's going to throw himself around like a bowling pin, and then he's going to get knocked down sometimes.

And it was in every scouting report. Like, this guy will take every risk. he will run into people he will take huge hits and somebody called him like wily coyote i think it was maybe nate tice i mean like that's how he is and uh i think we saw some of that and that's what they want to be the roadrunner right yeah that is what dan quinn kind of said is like yeah we were trying to just run the ball but he tried to make a play and that's how he got hurt obviously you know he's not blaming him he's just saying i didn't expect that um for me though i think that we've gotten to let's see an hour and 55 minutes into the live stream we can now quietly bring this up

wow sam darnold that's what i was thinking wow um sam darnold is in the perfect system for sam darnold he's got the receiver he's got the maturity he's got the arm and it is really something to watch just so good watch so good right now the laser show of sam darnold and uh look that that game now that McCarthy is back in that game in Seattle could have a lot a lot to do with where the Vikings finish in their season and uh you know I'll tell you the truth I was holding off some travel plans just to see how does this thing go because Seattle's an expensive trip oh I'm going now oh I'm going now can I go with you well uh let's see how many podcasts for free do you have to do to make up for Seattle man

You need to go out Wednesday and sit down with Darnold. Yeah, I'm sure the one of the, and they know I love them so I can make this joke. One of the 18 Star Tribune reporters who cover will probably make that trip. But no, I'm just kidding. But truly, with Sam Darnold, it's been amazing to see. And everybody knows that we had the greatest respect for Sam Darnold covering him last year, could not have been more of a pro for this franchise. and deserves all the success that he's getting.

I've heard from people who are covering him out there in Seattle. They love him. They love him in the locker room. His teammates love him. And, you know, I think that at the time we get to that matchup, we could be saying both teams made the right call. Or we could be saying, well, Darnold's slipping. Or we could be saying Darnold's running away from this.

Like that all of a sudden is a storyline to watch as we build up to Vikings and Seahawks. but gentlemen another wonderful night of football discussion every monday night we do the roundtable here manny and i will pick the schedule again on thursday excited about how much that changes manny was getting some some cackling in the comments yesterday oh is manny going to be negative now like well no none of you guys in the comments were negative going into that game that's for sure right uh but anyway so i look forward to that thank you guys thank you everybody for watching slash listening and for your participation in the comments as well. And we will talk to you all very soon.

Should be a really, really fun week. Tyler Dunn's going to show up. Steve Pelazolo is going to show up. We're kind of rolling out the stops here for a big game. And we'll get somebody for Baltimore as well. So thanks everybody. And we'll talk to you all very soon. Football.