Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Vikings trade for TJ Hockenson

Episode Date: November 1, 2022

Matthew Coller and Former Viking Jeremiah Sirles react to the Vikings trading for Lions tight end TJ Hockenson and then talk about the passing of former co-defensive coordinator Adam Zimmer and why the run game dominated against Arizona Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Purple Insider presented by Liquid Death. Go to liquiddeath.com slash insider and learn about the Tallboy can, which actually has water. Find out where you can get it near you at liquiddeath.com slash insider. Well, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar along with Jeremiah Searles. And we just finished up an entire podcast as the Vikings announced that they have traded,

or I'm sorry, Adam Schefter have announced, but that they have traded for TJ Hawkinson of the Detroit Lions. And they're not getting us, Jeremiah. We were still sitting here. We were still ready. So even though we completed the entire podcast in which we talked about the passing of Adam Zimmer and the things that they're facing going forward here with some of their offensive line issues and so forth. But one of the things we did not touch on was Irv Smith's injury, and now they bring in one of the top tight ends in the NFL, a move that pushes the chips to the middle of the table, something that I've been kind of advocating for for some time.

This is a huge move for the Minnesota Vikings to get TJ Hawkins. He's a top five tight end in the NFL, in my opinion. I mean, this dude can do it all. He can block. He can run. He can catch. I mean, this is a young Kyle Rudolph. This is what Kyle Rudolph was when he was young,

and he could go in an all-pro caliber, pro-ball-level caliber. And, you know, Jared Goff just wasn't using him the way that they needed to use him. I mean, this is an instant upgrade at tight end. No offense to Irv at all, but this is a first-round pick, dude that was incredibly productive in college, and a dude that comes in and brings a whole new level of weapon at the tight end position. Averaging 15.2 yards per reception this year, TJ Hawkinson,

and 26 catches to go along with that. I also think it was kind of clear. Now the injury was random, just kind of a bad break for Irv Smith. But I also think it was clear that they either didn't know how to fit Irv Smith into this offense, or they weren't particularly happy with the way he was fitting in and decided that they needed to make a move. Plus a high ankle sprain is something that can stick with you for the rest of a season. So it's not like you just go out, come back in, you're all good to go. And he's going to be out at least a month, probably more than a month.

But then what this does is when you bring him back, it's no longer Irv and Johnny Muntz season. It's you can load up two tight ends and have a, what was it, Jordan Reed and Vernon Davis type of situation from Washington that Kirk Cousins had. I mean, this is a significant weapon that they have added to their offense. Absolutely. You know, this is something that we talked about it for weeks now. Like, are we contenders or pretenders? Like, this pushes this offense into, I mean, I'll go back and put that bet that we had last week's episode of like, does this perk Kirk in the top seven? Like this could be the type of player that puts Kirk in the

top seven of quarterback percent or quarterback. Uh, what was it? I can't remember the word quarterback rating, correct? Quarterback rating. Because when you have a tight end, that is a safety blanket. And that is what TJ Hawkinson is. That's what Kyle Rudolph was forever. That's what you see. Dawson Knox is in Buffalo, Travis Kelsey. I mean, you talk about a tight end that's like things are breaking down. Things aren't great. Where's my big target over the middle that's matched up on a safety that I just put the ball at eight feet in the air and he's athletic enough to go up and get it. You know, that is TJ Hawkinson. And then you add that to, we just did the whole pod on running the football, the play action game with a tight end that can stretch the defense over the middle of a field

is so much better than the long, deep crossings over to Justin Jefferson and all that. And it just opens up more because now we have a tight end that's doing the seam routes and run up the middle. That safety has got to put his feet there and can't just sit back for the crossing over Jefferson. It's going to open up so much more. The faster they can get him in here, the faster they can get him up to date and ready to go and play, the more dangerous his offense is going to get. Okay, the Vikings are giving up a lot, naturally, for someone as good as TJ Hawkinson. A 2023 second rounder and a 2024 fourth rounder

and a 2023 fourth rounder and a 2024 fourth rounder. Did you catch all that? So really the highlight is the second rounder and then several fourth round picks to go with that. That is a big price to pay, and here's why I like it. I'll give you one real quick stat first for TJ Hawkinson, which is that he has six catches over 10 yards, between 10 and 20 yards so far this year for 123 yards,

which to me says that he can go over the middle intermediate level passing not just short passing to a tight end he can go down the field more but also run after the catch and he's a guy that when the Vikings played we talked about like this is somebody you really have to watch out for so now having him in the mix for this team I think gives them a different dimension that they didn't have but here's what I would say I like about it the most. It is a high price, but it's also an all-in price, and it sends a message to everybody who's a veteran player on this team. We are in it to win it.

All these guys, Patrick Peterson, Zedarius Smith, these are not guys who have 10 years left to play in the NFL. They want to win right now. And you just went and got one of the best players at his position saying, we believe in you guys. And also the, here's a word for you, malleability of Kweisi Adafo Mensah. Yeah, how about that? To say competitive rebuild in the offseason, which sort of hedged,

but then come back and be like, six one let's go I think that's a great message and I also think it's a great approach to realizing I don't know when the wheels are coming off this thing but this year is our chance that and you gotta you gotta look at what KOC's doing he's taking a little page out of the McVay playbook here right F them rookies we don't need them picks right like it's what McVay did in getting Stafford there. It's what McVay did in getting all these pieces. Von Miller, right? All these things he did where he was like,

picks are great, rookies are great, but we're seeing it in the Ed Ingram situation. Rookies are great, but they're not always proven. But if we can give up a second rounder for a proven tight end that is one of the best in the game, let's do it. Let's see what we can do. And now next year's second round pick, we're not going to have it, but we already have a key cog plugged into this machine already. You know, so there's a, there's a, a new kind of way of the NFL that

you're seeing that happen more for trusted veterans, giving up things. But this goes back to, I don't think we overpaid for him. I don't think we gave up the farm. Yes, it was a steep price tag, but it wasn't the Christian McCaffrey price tag that the Niners just basically, or the Panthers just basically took the Niners to the cleaners and then kicked them out of the door and said, here's your hat, what's your hurry? No, I think this was a bit of a fair trade. But also, Lions, what are you doing? What are you doing trading interdivision to a team where, I mean,

I don't understand the Lions aspect of giving up Hawkinson as much as it do the Vikings acquiring him. Okay, real quick clarification because the initial tweet on what was coming back was a little confusing. It seemed like the Vikings were giving up numerous fourth-round picks, but instead some of that was coming back their way. So it is Hawkinson and a second next year and a third the year after, and the Vikings are getting a fourth in 2023 and a fourth in 2024 along with him. There's another element of this as well, which is that TJ Hawkinson is a young player

who can be re-signed and you're allowed to keep him for the long term. So if you were looking for more than just a rent-a-player, that if you love him, which you probably will, he gets to be a long-term part of this. I think you found it. And I also feel like they evaluated Irv Smith and said, he probably won't be a long-term part of this. That maybe the last coaching staff and the last front office was looking at him differently and how his fit was in the offense. But the idea that you could pair long-term Justin Jefferson with TJ Hawkinson to have two weapons there that can go down the field, at least to some extent with a tight end, but it's very dynamic. I mean, that is a now and later type of move where you're starting to build out what are

the pieces for the future. And now he looks like a key part of that absolutely he looks like they found a long-term solution to a problem they've been trying to fix for a while now you know even as kyle's on the back end of his career he wasn't what he was you know and you're looking at conklin in here for a little bit it didn't work out for him like this is a tight end friendly offense this is a tight end friendly league and so if you can have a weapon at tight end, it just gives you that much more advantage. Can you believe how much different right now is than the last two years of purple insider?

It's insane. It's wild. I mean, the last two years we've been trying to like every week, it's like, okay, same song and dance. Here we go.

But I mean, this is what winning franchises do. This is what winning head coaches do. Like you, like you said, you go all in. It's not one foot in, one foot out. What are we doing? How are we doing this?

It's all in. And right now, you look at the NFL, as wacky as a year it's been, the Vikings have every intention. That building has no thought that they can't go win at all. Because right now, with the way that the league is, with the way the division is specifically, they are right up there in the top 10 teams of having a chance to get into the dance and making something happen all right well that was an additional 10 minutes to the 45 minutes that we already recorded and an instant

reaction to the t.j hawkinson trade we will have of course so much more reaction to this trade what it means to the vikings the rest of the. But you and I had to quickly jump back on. And I apologize for how it's going to sound, the edited version, because we are going from this to how we started our show, which was with the passing of Adam Zimmer. So I am apologizing now for that. Yes, I am as well. That is going to be a difficult transition.

I'm going to put a break in before that, okay? So we'll do it that way. But that was what we were feeling waking up about the passing of Adam Zimmer, but now a reaction to TJ Hawkinson becoming a Minnesota Viking, a huge, huge, huge move for the Vikings. So thanks for jumping back on Jeremiah. I mean, you didn't go anywhere. Nope. Didn't even leave the chair. All right. Well, they tried to get us, but they didn't go anywhere nope didn't even leave the chair all right well they they uh they tried to get us but they didn't so thanks again for your time and we'll talk to you later later now the rest of our conversation that we recorded 10 minutes earlier thank you

folks i know you've heard me talk about sodaodaStick for a long time now, but I'm telling you, you have to start following them on social media for new fresh gear they are releasing all the time. Of course, they have the classics like the Moss Moon design and the Metrodome shirts and hoodies. But as the local teams go along in their seasons, SodaStick is constantly putting out new stuff, whether it's the new Horn State gear or the Vica Dantas Rex shirts, lots and lots more from all the Minnesota clubs. Go to SodaStick.com and follow them at SodaStick on Twitter. That is S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com on Twitter and use the code Purple Insider to get 15% off your purchase. Just before we started recording, some tragic news came out about Adam Zimmer, former Vikings co-defensive coordinator, son of Mike Zimmer, passing away at the age of 38.

And I think it's appropriate for us to start there Jeremiah somebody that I covered a large part of his career as the linebackers coach and then defensive coordinator he was on the staff when you were a Minnesota Viking and this is one where you wake up and you look at the news and are just taken back and completely shocked I was trying to think of something to say something to put on Twitter, whatever. And I had nothing. I mean, just completely shocking. And this is somebody who is almost the exact same age as me and very similar age as you to have passed away at such a young age. And Mike Zimmer, after having lost his wife and then now his son, that man has been through so much already. And now this has just got to be devastating to Mike Zimmer.

So I feel incredibly bad for Mike Zimmer, the entire Zimmer family. And this is tough for a lot of guys who are on that staff who know him and know what a kind and friendly person he is, always someone that was great to deal with for us but i think the biggest thing that i always stuck out to me was just his friendliness that everybody in the building seemed to like him and uh i am just so sorry that this happened to the zimmer family that adam zimmer passes away yeah terrible you know and my client uh actually is the left guard for the bangles you know and so he was on the analyst there.

And so I texted him this morning and he was like, it's been a weird 24 hours. They have the big loss against Cleveland last night, the news this morning. And it's a tough thing. And I started thinking back to my interactions with him when I was there with the Vikings. And him and I had kind of a funny relationship in the fact that like I used to play center on scout team and one of my favorite things to do was to change the protections that weren't on the card to like be at the blitz protections and I'd do it and he would always kind of look at me and with the eyes the heavy eyes and like eye roll and you know and so we understood each other we had a really like really good relationship in that front and where we'd work together to try and give the

best look that we could for the defense you know But I echo everything you said as far as he was just a great guy to work with, very knowledgeable about the game, and just too soon. No one should ever have to bury a child. And for Mike Zimmer to have to bury a wife and a child, my heart goes out to them. And I saw that his daughter asked for prayers this morning, so just been praying for their family and praying for them and for just this terrible tragedy that's bestowed upon them.

And, you know, the NFL is such a small fraternity. You know, there's no, I guarantee you, there's not one team in the NFL that is not touched in some way, shape or form by how Adam Zimmer or the Zimmer family in the tree of coaches and everything. So, you know, the heart, the heart is heavy in the NFL world this morning, Minnesota world and everywhere, you know, with just prayers for Zimmer and his family. Right. He was on Sean Payton's staff when they won the Super Bowl. And so there are many, many players that came through and worked with him.

And I remember Chad Greenway talking about him as a young coach coming to Minnesota and Chad Greenway being a veteran player and those two growing and working together as coaches and up to the point where he was the co-defensive coordinator. But I think what stands out the most for sure is just that every person that I knew that knew him or worked with him, they all said that he was a joy to work with and a big smile on his face, a good guy to be around. And, man, that is tough. And I was thinking about, too, that sometimes things just in football are imprinted in your mind, scenes, things that you see,

things that you observe when you're around game after game after game. And at the end of the Chicago game last year, final game of the season, Mike Zimmer knows it's over. And he grabbed Adam and Andre Patterson together. They had been together for so long. I mean, he's known Andre Patterson his whole football life basically. And they took some pictures at US Bank Stadium together. And I guess in a way it's like that they got to kind of have that moment together. Like we were here together. We got to work as, as father and son.

And those two, I know they were extremely close. I mean, Mike talked about during the pandemic, during the lockdown, like what did they do? They went to the ranch and they watched football together and they grinded tape.

And like, that's as exuberant as it, you know, people know him as a, as a hard football coach, but he's also an extremely family-oriented person. And he would talk about his family a lot. And his daughters are dealing with this now as well.

So, I mean, that is very, very difficult. I mean, guys like Eric Hendricks played for him, with him. Troy Dye that would have been developing underneath Adam Zimmer. So, this is really difficult for everybody. Yeah. It just, everyone involves a difficult thing. You know, I think that there's a silver line to, you know, the support for that family will be tremendous that from, like we said, from all over the league and people will reach out and help any way that they

can. And I mean, I know that all of Vikings nation will be in support of coach Zimmer, regardless of how it ended. Like there's there's things bigger than football. You know, life is bigger than football and gives you a chance to kind of sit back, reflect and look at it and really kind of take a deep breath and say, you know, we cover a gladiator sport. And we think everyone involved from coaches to players are these gladiators, you know, but Mike was a dad first. You know, Coach Zimmer was a dad first. Now he has to go and bury his son. And I just can't even imagine the feelings that he has.

And so, again, I just can't echo the support that my family has for the Zimmer family and everyone else involved. Yeah, and we will make a tough transition into talking about the game, talking about the future. We'll do that in just a second. But I did want to ask you because I i know that um you didn't play for the vikings the year after tony sperano passed away but that was still someone for you that was your offensive line coach and the thing that maybe people don't know that we don't talk about a whole lot is position coaches become your uncle your dad your you know the relationship between a physician coach and

their players is so incredibly close in many cases and I know Tony was that way with his offensive lineman I mean what was that like for you like what are the players who were coached by Adam Zimmer dealing with today you know yeah the relationship between the like your position room and your head coach and it might have been different with Adam and his dad, but those are kind of the guys that stand in front and take the bullets for you. That's one thing Tony did. Zimmer was no shy to coming down on the O-line, but Tony would always stand in the meeting room and say,

hey, that's my fault. I've got to get him coached up more. Or he took the bullets for you, so you had a lot of respect. And then you get in the meeting and you shut the closed door, and he goes, all right, MF time like you know there's there's that respect that you have and so when you lose a guy that you would consider a mentor and i mean you spend so much time with your position coach from otas to training camp to the season like you just spend hours upon hours with these people and you get to know their families i mean i have vivid memories of tony and his grandson running onto the. And we always used to joke like, Oh, bring your grandson around more

because it puts you in a better mood, you know, and so you just get to know their families. And I still actually talked to Mrs. Sperano sporadically, and I'll shoot her a text on holidays, or if I see a memory that pops up that it's got Tony in it with me, you know, and so it's just this weird void in your life that, you know, a guy that for the majority of my career, he was there for me and really gave me my first opportunity to play, and then he passes away. You know, it's a big void that you think about all the time still.

Alex Boone and I talk about it all the time, and we kind of do the Tony voice, hey, sorry, Riles. Like, you know, it's just a tough thing to deal with. And as a player, it's one of those things that in the middle of the season, I couldn't imagine. Um, like if he was your coach right then, I mean, I think that being removed a little bit from the Vikings linebackers won't have quite as a dramatic impact, but it is something they'll carry with them through the rest of this year and through the rest of their career and the rest of their lives. Because when you have someone that makes such an impactful, meaningful moments in your life, good, bad, ugly, whatever it is, because that is the relationship with your positional coach, it sticks with you.

And then to know that that person is gone, and I'd be shocked if you told me that Eric Hendricks, Troy Dye, Anthony Barnwell, those guys didn't talk to Zimmer on a regular basis, just checking in, how are things going type of stuff. And that's just something that's just a huge void that you just can't fill anymore. Yeah. So again, very, very sorry to Mike Zimmer and his family and the best to them at an incredibly, incredibly difficult time. Because yeah, I mean, I wanted to make sure that it's clear because we do talk about the football elements of this so much that there was never a question about how Mike Zimmer felt about his family. And he always made that extremely clear and how close he and Adam were. I mean, they, they had the same walk. They had it right. I mean, you know exactly what I mean. They had the same exact walk. They had so, so many of the same characteristics. But I think that Adam had a

huge heart and people may find out about that now that he's gone. But I think that I mean, that's the one thing that's going to going to stay. So we will make the difficult transition to talking about the game and we'll do the things that we do and keep carrying on. But even, you know, even just for me, somebody covering him for such a long time and then to wake up and see that like truly shocking uh this morning so let's talk about the win against arizona and get into that and we'll we'll we'll just go we'll just go right into it uh with the offensive line play specifically the run blocking for the vikings if it can do what it did against Arizona, they can win more football games. I wanted to focus on that element with you because it's something like when you run the ball with

Delvin Cook, you sort of take for granted that it's Delvin Cook and you go like, yeah, that's kind of what they should do, but they have not been consistent running the ball all year. And really since 2020, where they were scaring opponents with their run game like they did against arizona they are now the fourth ranked run blocking team in the nfl by pff and i i feel um a very very strange saying this but like lean into the run kevin o'connor it's okay you're allowed to do it it's 2022 things are weird but i feel like that is now kind of got to go back to being the centerpiece of their offense if the blocking is going to be there. You know, and this all goes back to early in the game,

creating success in the run game. Every offensive coordinator, and I think we've touched on this before, but every offensive coordinator, if you don't have success running the ball early in the first quarter, gets nervous and they get scared. And unless you have a guy like Derek Henry back there that you know is just going to wear guys out physically throughout the game, you start to kind of, okay, that didn't work. I don't want to get stuck in second and nine. Let's throw a slant instead of just go the inside. You know, that's just natural coaching, like how they feel. And I've experienced it at every level, you know?

So when you have a guy like Dalvin cook and you hand them the ball 20 times in there, the game, and you're having success for all 20, I mean, you're averaging 5.5 yards to carry with Dalvin. You get confidence in the run game. And when you, as a, as a play caller have confidence in the run game, that gives your offensive line and tight ends and running backs confidence in the run game because you're basically saying hey you did it well let's keep doing it and you can build off that momentum and you put on the other side like the defense immediately has doubt in their mind when you have running success early if you have running success early the defense immediately gets on their heels and you start going into the mind of the defensive play caller and they're starting immediately going oh shoot, shoot, man, now we're going to have to drop a safety in the box.

Now Jefferson's going to be open. And it just creates all this doubt in the mind of a defensive play caller. So committing to the run early and having success early is the key to success for this Vikings run game. If they don't have it early, I don't see this all of a sudden like a third quarter explosion where it's like, oh, well, we didn't do it in the first half. Maybe it'll work in the second half. Like they have to establish the run early in games if they

want to have success through the entire game. I think you saw that from Cliff Kingsbury on Sunday where their first couple of runs went nowhere. And this, you know, to talk about Mike Zimmer, like this was a case that he always made that I think was right. That if you just let them take it away from you, you're playing into their hands. Like that's what they want to do that. You do have to, when the game is close, you can't do it down 17, but when the game is close, you have to continue to run the ball. And Arizona was just like, Oh, you got us. Which, you know, does speak to something we're going to discuss a little later about Delvin Tomlinson, but the run defense was really good from the outset. But I love talking about the psychology of play callers, where even Kevin O'Connell had to realize in Philadelphia, they were down a couple of scores and had chances to

come back in the game, totally stopped running, totally forced Kirk Cousins to take over that game as if he was Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen. And it costs them where they were in the red zone first and whatever, 10. And you're not giving Delvin Cook a chance to make a play there at all and forcing Kirk Cousins to throw it. Once the defense knows that you're going to do that, I mean, they can play completely differently. So the domino effect of that is so interesting. And I also wonder what you think is working on the offensive line from a run blocking perspective, because we will get to some of the pass protection issues on the

interior and maybe see if you have a hot take on that. But the running, I think this is interesting to me with tackles. They often look at it like, how good are you at pass protection? Oh yeah. Just like do some stuff in the run. Like just don't don't you know just don't fall over your own feet as one offensive lineman did on the play but this is a weapon they have with Brian O'Neill and Christian Derrissaw they can run around those edges those guys can seal players off and create big gains that's where I feel like they need to really focus is how do you run more behind Christian Derrissaw yeah you know a lot of that will come with the pin pull stuff. You know, I think when you have you have tackles that are really athletic and you can get them out and they're powerful. I mean, look at what they used to do with Jason Peters back in the day when he was a stud.

Look at what they do with Lane Johnson and Trent Williams and guys that can move and get out and get mismatches on corners and safeties. If you can pin all these linebackers, everything in, it allows the running back to just follow this hugely athletic 300 pound human being, let him crush a corner and then have the speed to go, you know? And so you add those wrinkles of being able to get these two tackles on the edges and reaching and circling around guys. It makes the linebackers have to hold just a little bit longer inside because they're thinking, OK, if this guy pulls, I can maybe shoot the gap and get through. Or on the flip side, it makes them think, oh, I got to be a little wider. So if he pulls, I can try and meet them out there so that he's not meeting a safety. He's meeting an outside linebacker.

And when you can put hesitation in the mind of linebackers, then they're sitting there going, OK, is it pin pull outside or is Dalvin Cook coming in the A gap? You know, and just a half second of hesitation from a linebacker is the difference between him shooting a gap or a half second longer of a double team sticking on a defensive line and getting maybe one extra yard of movement vertically before having to snap off on that linebacker. You know, so I think that that's a lot of the success in the run game is because you can do so much because Dalvin is probably one of the most versatile, if not the most versatile back in the NFL with being able to pull and have the speed to come around the outside, but also wiggle through a hole in the a gap and then put his foot on the accelerator that if you can just mix and match and say, we can run it all. We're not a one dimensional. We're not a just downhill. We're everything because of the pieces we have and play

on the edges of the offensive line. It creates a lot of explosive runs, which is what you want to see with a guy like Dalvin. Can you explain pin and pull? Yes, yes, yes. Pin and pull. So a pin pull thing is essentially you're trying to cut the defense in half. So let's imagine here that you have a three receiver set to the left of Derrissaw, right? In a bunch formation close to him. You have a point guy, say it's Jefferson. Then you have Adam Thielen, and then you usually have a tight end, so say it's Irv or whoever is going to replace him with being dinged up. The pin pull is the idea that your front two guys in that bunch are going to want to pin everyone down.

So they're going to block down, and then you're going to pull Derrissaw, and you're going to pull one of that tight end so that you have two lead blockers now, and you've cut the defense in half with the pin. And now you have two guys leading the charge. And it's usually a wide pitch to the running back or from the gun. It'll be a handoff across his face. And now you have to circle the defense with two big blockers out in front,

you know? And so that's a big idea that the pin pull system goes there. And what's great with the pin pull system is the play action off of that is incredible. The play action off of that, because there's so many moving parts in front of you, and there's so many guys coming left and moving right and everything that all of a sudden,

you run that exact same thing in a play action, and now that guy that was down blocking on a linebacker acts like he is, and then he sticks his foot in the ground and goes north and south up the seam, right? So the pin-pull scheme is fantastic. The Eagles have ran it forever. You saw LA ran it a lot last year, and now you're seeing the Vikings are starting to sprinkle it back into this offense too um i just checked and

justin jefferson has an average run blocking grade which deserves a medal i mean because this offense deserve or asks a lot um from their wide receivers in blocking and he's not cooper cup who's just like an animal out there but i mean when it comes to if you can get a superstar receiver to be an average run blocker in this offense and then you can set up situations where you have tackles pulling you mentioned Lane Johnson but on both sides they can pull either way it's not just one side of the defense like okay well Brian O'Neill might pull now you have two dudes who can pull and get out in space and there was a play I was watching where this happened, where a linebacker kind of came flying over and ran into

Christian Darasol like a brick wall, like cartoon stuff just bounced right off. And it was like, okay, like that, that is a weapon. And you know, you know how easy that is for the offense when your guy can do that. I mean, it just, when you can get big gains and frustrated defense with plays like that, with tackles out there pulling, everybody's having a good day. And that's what happened against Arizona. If they stuck with it even more a little early on, I feel like they could have just run up and down the field the whole day. Yeah, you know, it's one of those things where as you're having success

with the run game, you're like, man, when do I get back to the pass? You know, it's like, when do I get back to the pass you know it's like when do I sprinkle back in the past you know but overall like the complete game that the offense put together you know I thought was pretty good you know having to ask Kirk to only pass the ball 36 times is a good thing you know I love Kirk's he was his decision making I thought was pretty good on Sunday he did well I mean no interceptions which is important but you know just having the ability to let Kirk sit back there and not ask him to have to do too much because you have the run game going is when Kirk is at Kirk's best you know and we talked about like in Philly where all of a sudden the run game was out the window and now it's like all

right buddy the entire success comes and goes on your shoulders now you know and he has the ability to do that but he's just better when he doesn't have to. And every quarterback is, unless you're Josh Allen or Mahomes and like, you're basically like, no, we're not running. We're just throwing at every play because I can put the ball anywhere on the field. You know, you want to have that balanced offense. And also you look at the teams that have the super pass. They're not running at all. They don't have Dalvin Cook. They don't have a superstar at running back. Like that is such a weapon that if you can get him and Jefferson going,

that's a two headed monster that the, that just going to be really, really hard to stop. Folks. You've heard me talk about liquid death and I'm glad to see that some of you are getting on board. I got a great tweet from a listener the other day talking about how liquid death has helped him kick sugary drinks and slim down and also for the longest time my wife was the type of person to carry a water

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But I mean, that was one of the most like unforgivable fumbles where it just bounces off the guy and no one was even around him, but that's neither here nor there. They're making plays on special teams. I don't see that changing. They have good special teams players and a great punter who can flip the field. And I had this thought about alex smith and his win loss record and how alex smith's box score statistics were never special but he won a lot of games by not turning the ball over and kirk had the strip sack in the game and that really can't happen and we'll get to that but the not throwing interceptions he had one game where he

had three against philly and no other interceptions except for let's see well okay so two more he had one against the Bears right Bears yeah yeah yeah uh but that's oh and one against New Orleans okay and so that and so that's it and and if that's the case that on a regular basis you are coming out of the game clean from the turnover perspective you kind of just have to play that way as the Vikings because I don't see anything changing where they flip a light switch and all of a sudden they're throwing for 320 yards a game. It's just not going to be who you are. And I think the best skill as a coach is being adaptable and kind of like, I mean, we make a lot of 2017 references here, but Pat Shermer had to go a certain way when Case Keenum and Latavius Murray and Jarek McKinnon

are his guys as opposed to Sam Bradford you know and Delvin Cook in the backfield it's just different and so then you know screen passes to Jarek McKinnon where he was getting in space and using his quickness and things like that and you know getting receivers down the field off of play actions and those underneath little boots, dropping it off to Kyle Rudolph for like seven yards, eight yards, those were extremely effective. And he just played so well to Case Keenum's strengths. And I think that that's sort of the challenge here for Kevin O'Connell.

Like, I know what you want to do, but you can't do that. But you can still have a very good offense with the talent that you have. Yeah, and I think we're seeing more and more of the growth of Kevin O'Connell as a head football coach. You know, we always talk about like, Oh, he's got to do this because he is the head football coach, but he's, he's learning how to do it too. You know, this isn't something that he's a well-traveled been all over the place and been a head coach here or there and D coordinator here, office coordinator here, quarterbacks coach here. Like he doesn't have the well-traveled, but what he's doing is he's not drawing a line in the sand and saying my way or the highway you know he's allowing himself to be influenced by probably kirk cousins

and by other people on the staff and other veterans on the team and saying okay what's working what's not let's work on this thing together which you're seeing more and more in the nfl is more of a collaboration with these younger head coaches than it was with the old days of the Lucy Bill Belichick and the Bill Parcells of like, nope, this is how we do it. If you don't like it, I'll find someone else that'll do it. You know, and the teams that are doing well are having success with that. You know, if you're crazy, if you don't think Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen and those guys are all not sitting down with their own coordinators every week and saying, OK, let's work through what's working, what's not. And you're seeing growth in that from the Vikings offense. You're seeing new wrinkles every single week.

And you're seeing things that we've done well in weeks past doubling down on those in the next week. And we're testing the defense. We're saying, hey, we did this really well last week. Can you stop it? And if not, we're just going to keep doing it. And then, oh, if you scheme to stop that, well, guess what? We're one step ahead of you now, and now we're moving to this new scheme and that's the growth of an offense that's the growth of a coordinator that's a growth of an entire team and you're seeing that week in and week out from this Vikings offense I want to know your opinion on the the approach

the player first approach because after the game unpromptedpted, three different people, I think it was Thielen, Cook, and Zedary Smith, they all said, even when they were not asked about this, like it really goes back to the beginning of the year and Kevin O'Connell setting the tone from the outset. Now, a lot of this is hindsight and we write the narrative later, right? Like if it works, then we're like, ah, that's why it worked. When, you know, things could have gone a different way but i also think that the way that this team has gelled together is something that you know i have

seen before on winning teams but it's sort of been pushed to the extreme where kevin o'connell is doing everything he can to encourage these players bonding with each other bonding with the head coach and i think that there is a part of me when i see the head coach after a failed third down have long conversations with all the offensive players being like coach you're on defense like you know do you know what time the clock says kevin um at the same time though that communication that he's having it sounded cliche it was kind of like oh we're going to communicate like are you though and the answer is yes uh and that has been a big deal like even justin jefferson

cited like having a conversation with kevin o'connell how can you put me in motion where can i line up that's going to get me away from some of these island corners and the catch that he makes the other day was not against arizona's best corner and he had another great catch that he makes the other day was not against Arizona's best corner. And he had another great catch that was over a linebacker. And so lining him up in place, like that was important to him that he got to line up in different spots. And Kevin O'Connell found a way to make that work. And I feel like when you give players ownership over it, there's just something different there when it's not just I'm coaching and you do what I say. Yeah, it's skin in the game, right? Like whenever you go into like a contract negotiation or you go into any type of like group thing, it's like you want everyone to have equal skin or at least

some type of stake in what's about to happen, right? Because then if it goes completely wrong, you're like, hey, this is on you too. This isn't just on me. Like we decided on this together. This wasn't because so often you'd be like, well, coach told me to do it. So I did. It didn't work his fault. You know, it doesn't work like that when it's like, well, we decided on this together this wasn't because so often you'd be like well coach told me to do it so i did it didn't work his fault you know it doesn't work like that when it's like well we talked about this and oh shoot maybe i should have done this better or there's like a an amplified piece to you that's like i need to do this better because this was my idea like i need to make this work and so i think that there's a lot of that going on and also like i agree i remember seeing like oh he's over there talking like defense but that's also putting trust in your staff you know you talk about the communication and the trust between coach and player and player and coach but there's also got to be a staff trust right

i think so many times some head coaches can get so micromanagey and so have a i control everything all the time you got to have trust in the people you brought to do this with you you know you got to have some trust and ultimately yeah the buck stops with you and you have all those ultimate decisions but the trust from the staff to staff side of it too is also the culture right you have the culture of not just what the players first and coaches but also just like the whole staff and i think i experienced that in buffalo for the first time like sean mcdermott and brian dable and brandon being up there really bought all into this, our culture. It's not my culture.

It's our culture. And they would not bring guys into the locker room that they didn't feel felt their culture, even if they were great players. I mean, there was all the talks up there, like in 2018, I think it was, or maybe 19, the like trading for Antonio Brown. Right. And like, there was a lot of in the locker room, like, I don't know if he fits here. And I think that everyone was kind of like, he a good player but no not for us you know i think that's what's

being built at egan right now is that idea of this collective culture we're all in this together and going through it and everyone's got equal skin in the game and right now it's working so it's really easy to say go but when adversity hits it'll be really interesting to see how all these pieces continue to fall in line with this going forward i just looked up on wikipedia skin in the game and where that came from uh and uh it is cited to warren buffett uh referring to like how much uh of his own personal investment is in it so there you go i never knew that now you know um so as great as great as that is and as much as I think that what Kevin O'Connell has done, it's very impressive because a lot of people say things, but backing it up is

very different. Every coach says culture, whatever, want us to care about each other, but you actually do have to listen. You actually do have to implement these things. The health element of it has, I think, added an extra trust level for the players that if you think that the trainers who are answering to the coach care about your health as a player long term and short term, then it makes you think the coach cares about that as well. And there's a trust connection there that is being formed. So there's like many different like offshoots of this, like an octopus and every arm is something different that matters. And right now, all eight arms are working together for Kevin O'Connell to build a locker room

that cares. But if Kirk Cousins gets sacked 11 billion times over the right guard, this will not matter. I am telling you this won't matter because Deron Payne, Jonathan Allen, they're coming and Ed Oliver is coming. And the dudes from Dallas, it's a violent defensive line. They're coming. I think that it's time to make a change at right guard to Chris Reed, a veteran player who's been around, who is not a Dakota Dozier. He has been better than that in his career.

And look, the numbers are just putrid. I mean, we're talking about Ed Ingram being dead last in the entire NFL in terms of pressures allowed from the guard position. You're just going to get more strip sacks, more interceptions. If the goal is to not turn the ball over, you're going to start turning the ball over more if that pressure is coming. So, I mean, I don't know that they'll do it, but I think that they've given it enough time, an entire bye week. Like you're kind of not a

rookie anymore and it's just not working. You know, yeah, it's a fine line of taking your lumps with a young player and a young rookie player and wanting to get him that experience because you see the ceiling that he has. And, you know, and I'll be the first to say, I was on the, I was on that Ingram train early and I thought he played I thought he played better early than he has in this middle part of the season you know a lot of that comes with okay you were new you were in the league guys were figuring you out now there's things on tape that much like I said earlier in the show about how an offense will continue to test a defense of things they've done well you put on the flip side a defensive lineman's gonna watch okay what does he struggle with? And has he fixed it yet? You know, has, has he fixed the struggles of what he's doing

with his outside hand or his outside leg or whatever it is that they're going to attack. And if you don't get it fixed, you're just going to keep seeing it. You're just going to keep continuing to get that. And that's a tough place to be as an offensive lineman. I've been there. You know, it's one of those things where you hyper focus on maybe one thing, like gotta fix this I gotta fix this and all of a sudden you're like oh crap there's another move that I was just so not worried about and you can get in your own head and 90% of a line play is confidence you have to have the confidence every time you break the huddle that you're gonna walk up to the line of scrimmage and be like I can whip you up in front like you're you're you're not beating me I'm beating you I'm gonna I think I mean editing room you can tell

this confidence has slipped a little bit. And, you know, so there's a fine line of what Chris Cooper and those guys are going to have to do of it's a production-based business. If you're not producing and you're not helping us win, we got to find somewhere else. But also, like, we believe in you. We drafted you. And we want you to be our starter. And so we need you to play better. So it's a fine line of challenging the player and saying we expect more out of you. And also, you know what? You're hurting the team. And we're a winning team. And we have you to play better. So it's a, it's a fine line of challenging the player and saying, we expect more out of you.

And also, you know what, you're hurting the team and we're a winning team and we have to make a change. Well, and everyone else is seeing it as well. So this is the thing, like everybody in the offensive line room,

everybody's watching the tape. They're all seeing it. And they all are aware that you traded away Jesse Davis for nothing. And that you also have this other guy who played well for the Indianapolis Colts last year right there on the roster. And just to put it in context, Dakota Dozier in 2020, rated dead last by PFF in his grade, had a higher raw grade than Ed Ingram right now in pass protection. That's how badly, and what it comes down to with the PFF grades, it's really important to note this, is usually it comes down to how often are you catastrophically beat?

And it's like on a play to play basis, your, your goal is to not get destroyed. And some guys can end up with very good grades when they're not throwing bodies around and they're not Christian Derrissaw. They're not a monster, but they could just be – Mitchell Schwartz was like this. Like just this super, super solid play-to-play-to-play was never catastrophically beat. But that's happening way too often, and that's how you get strip sacks. And here's something I'd love you to analyze is, like as a young player,

I think it's incredibly difficult on the offensive line to deal with the stunts and the twists and the simulated pressures and everything that comes along with it because it's just not like that in college. And especially the violence of the players, the strength, the experience, all those things, which is why you can't count on a draft pick to fill a spot. But specifically when you came into the league and saw all the different things that they could do on a down to down basis, like how challenging is that for a young player? It's extremely challenging, you know, and I kind of have some firsthand base of this because I have a rookie right now who I represent who's starting for the Bengals. You know, and every week we are on the phone talking about things that he saw and things that he's like dude this is what is happening and how you have one day to install third down and if you're playing against a team that's an incredibly third down pressure exotic stuff like there's no there's no do-overs because come Friday you're into the red zone and short yardage goal line like during the season you get one day to really focus

in on these third down it's crazy things and like you said the violence and you really as a young player too you're not extremely comfortable in the offense yet you know you still like you said the violence and you really as a young player too you're not extremely comfortable in the offense yet you know you still when you break the huddle as you get older you you hear the play call and you immediately know what's happening and you immediately start analyzing the defense right you your mind shifts from assignment to okay what's my technique what are they lined up into as a young player because you're still morphing your offense and it's a brand new offense like you're breaking the hud your offense and it's a brand new offense, like you're breaking the huddle going, okay, my assignment is this.

If we kill the play, my assignment is now this. Okay, now what is the defense doing? You know, and that just takes time and it just takes reps and it just takes experience and it's nothing you can just fix overnight. You know, so I think for a young player, trying to do all of that is extremely difficult, which is why you don't usually see young offensive linemen having tremendous success their first year unless they're freak shows, right? Unless they're Rashawn Slaters and they're all pros right from the get.

But those dudes are unicorns. You know, like it takes time, which is why I struggle saying you got to pull the plug on a young player because you want to shake confidence even more, yank him. You know, you've got to take your lumps, but at the same time,

like you have to take some ownership as a young player and be like i'm not playing well how do i fix this do i reach out do i take more meetings with coach cooper do i reach out and have more meetings with a veteran like chris reed who isn't starting but i'm sure he's a great teammate and he's going to want to help me you know like do i sit down with bradbury who's played a ton of football and be like hey what am i missing what i'm not going well do i reach out to the guy worked with duke the one of the o-line gurus down and do i reach out to him? And how do I fix myself? You know, there's got to be some ownership in this. And I think that I don't know Ed personally, but I hope that those are the things that he's doing. I hope he's got the right people in his ear from his

representation to who he surrounds himself with to really help him grow through this, because this can be a bit of a turning point in his career of which path does he take? If gets yanked is it down the toilet and it's all over or if he keeps staying on this can he develop and get better or if he does get yanked does he take the path of okay i gotta fight back and earn that starting spot you know so much goes into the psyche of a young player but it all comes back to what i always keep saying is it is a production-based business and when you're on a team that is chasing a playoff spot chasing a division title chasing a championship eventually the head coach the office coordinator the o-line coach are going to have to make a decision that's best for the team and not the individual if they were three and three i would say stick it out and see what happens you're six and one like the the calculus

just changes on so many things when you're six and one because you have to play now for we could go to the super bowl maybe like if you're looking at super bowl odds right now your team're six and one, because you have to play now for, we could go to the super bowl. Maybe like, if you're looking at super bowl odds right now, your team at six and one is rising those ranks. You're not a middling team. That's trying to develop players. So you have to play the best player. And I think that that is Chris Reed at this moment.

And if they put him out against Jonathan Allen and he gives up three sacks, like, does that help the confidence and the growth it's also just the reality of the NFL and offensive linemen so DJ Humphries didn't play the other day he's a good player now though he wasn't a good player until like year four I mean that this is just how it goes with offensive linemen Garrett Bowles right Garrett Bowles for Denver everyone wanted to decapitate that dude the first three years of his career, right? You had the most holding penalties, the entire NFL, first round pick, oh my gosh, get him out, terrible.

Pro Bowl, all pro his fourth year, one of the highest paid left tackles that he goes out this year in the left tackle position for Denver is a dumpster fire. So there is, it takes time. It just takes time. Right. And so that's why asking him to start right away was maybe a bridge too far. Drafting a guy who played left guard for his whole college career outside of one year when he was a freshman. So he hadn't played the right guard since he was 18 years old. And he's playing against, of course, college competition. And now you're changing sides, which is harder than people think. And then you're going up against very difficult players.

And I think that's really what's been the difference, the quality of competition recently where, hey, you know, J.J. Watt might not have what J.J. Watt had in 2014, but that guy's still a beast. And Zach Allen is a beast. And so that's why when you're going up against more of these guys in Washington, I think you need to put in somebody who gives you a better chance. You can't have the worst play at that position in the league and this is another like it's it's every um kind of coach goes to us in a season where it's

like mario people still play mario right like that's okay super mario but different different versions of it probably some handheld game or whatever but everyone understands that you are dropped into a little universe and then you hop through that universe, but you run into different stuff. You run into bad guys that you have to beat or whatever. And then you get to Bowser and he's like the big boss. Well, Kevin O'Connell is running into these, these mini bosses here. And this is one of them. It's like a hard decision. I thought that the first player arrest was certainly not handled with an iron fist. I wouldn't call that a big L for Kevin O'Connell, but I also think that there's more you can say than just like, we like that guy.

You know, like I thought that there had been some challenges that they've passed where you come off a really tough loss. How do you bounce back you go to london then back here then miami and then and that's a lot of travel and that's difficult there's been a lot of things he's passed and this one is kind of another like you have a hard decision here and also do you think you're gm and do you think that ryan grigson the guy who seemed to be behind that traffic you think they want that guy benched so So now we got some action here, folks. And if you lose to Washington because your guard position is not good, then it's going to be already conflict there of the management wants to see him play.

And these are all the things that you can run into. So this decision will be one that they might just hope and pray, but if it continues to go this way and if it costs them any games, like it almost did against Arizona. If Arizona scores a touchdown after that strip sack, I mean, we're talking about maybe a different game. So I think that this is going to be a difficult situation for them to face if they start losing some games and if he continues to play like this,

if they don't make a change. Yeah, I agree with you and I think this goes back to you kind of trusting your staff you know you had a guy who played the position as your offensive line coach right you Chris Cooper played the guard position so he understands what it takes week in and week out to make it work in the NFL and so if he I think he has to be the one to come to O'Connell and be like, it's time. Like, I've done all I can to prepare him. I've done all we can to get him physically, mentally ready. And right now it's just not clicking.

And I have trust in him. And they come to him together and say, we're not giving up on you. But for the good of the team, like, this is where we're going to go. And I think Chris Cooper is ultimately going to have to be the one that makes that decision. And I think O'Connell will support him in that decision, too. OK, six and one. How many wins do they end him in that decision too. Okay. Six and one. How many wins do they end the season with? 11.

I'm staying with it. Okay. Not changing. I'm not changing. I'm still staying with 11. And a lot of that is predicated off. If this defense can continue to take the ball away. Yeah.

Because they're not stopping. Right. The down to down. Right. Or number. And then they're going gonna face amazing receivers the next three weeks uh in terry mclaurin who made another incredible catch the other day and then stefan diggs and then cb lamb and like does not get easier for this defense uh real quick love to

see it hate to see it uh i've mentioned on the show a number of times pj walker 68 yards in the air and i know they lost that game in hilariously stupid fashion because of the panthers but pj walker showing what he's got former xfl guy with a cannon throw which is one of the as one of the coolest throws i've ever seen it just kept going i mean that was that was an amazing moment and really really good for him showing the league that he can play. He's going to be in the league for a long time after the way he's played these last couple games. I agree.

My love to see it is Taylor Heineke, the return. The return of Taylor Heineke coming back to U.S. Bank, right? I mean, he's coming. Well, they're going there. They're going to. Excuse me. They're going out to FedEx. But to have Taylor Heineke, who started his career in Minnesota

and then bounced, again, another guy that bounced out of the league for a while. He kicked a window, cut his ankle up, fought his way back, got benched for Carson Wentz, you know, all these things. And he comes out and he's winning. He's winning football games. He's playing well. Another guy that is a good game manager and has given his team position. And it'll be fun because there's still guys on this Minnesota team that were there when Taylor was there, too. So, you know, there's a little bit of a little rivalry here. I'm sure Taylor would love nothing more than to come beat his old team and do all that. But I'm really excited to watch Taylor face off against Kirk.

Yeah. And he's a fun player. I mean, he honestly is. And I'm sure he was just trying. He just left his keys outside and was just trying to get in when he hit the window. And it was just a total misunderstanding. But real quick, another love to see it would be Tua coming back and playing as well as he played. Yeah, I know it's not against the most threatening defense in the league, but I think that's just good. Like he went through such a horrific injury, and then to be able to come back and hate to see it.

Every time I believe in you bengals every time every time i'll come on the show and be like man put those bengals right up there with buffalo and kc they're on their way what hate to see it is just every national game this year just just bad this hasn't been fun it's not it's been horrible jeff beijos is really unfortunately uh he's really not loving that Thursday night deal that he paid for there. I think my hate, my hate to see it is just Tom Brady. Tom Brady, like the GOAT, the greatest of all time, undisputed, just life in complete

shambles. No, football's not going great. And then all of a sudden I kept telling him, I was like, dude, the room, it's rumors. They're not getting divorced. football's not going great and then all of a sudden I kept telling everyone I was like dude the room it's rumors they're not getting right it's not real that's all just people throwing smoke and then it was almost like man I played really terrible yesterday how do I deflection I know I got divorced today posted on Instagram and you're just like holy crap what is happening to what deemed as we all deemed him as the untouchable, right? Like everyone was like, if I could be so Tom Brady, married to a supermodel, like perfect life, perfect kids, winning Super Bowls.

And just to see in a short amount, like seven weeks, the complete fall of Tom Brady in seven weeks has been really just not fun to watch. As a fan, as a player of the game, like no one is enjoying, unless you've been a Jets fan your entire life and just hated Tom Brady forever. Like no one likes seeing a fall like Tom Brady is going on right now. Yeah. I think,

well, first of all, look, if you're tweeting, celebrating a man's divorce, you're sicko. Just stop. You're not a good person.

What is wrong with you? Like that? I don't even, I don't even feel comfortable with the fact that that's even like a news story. Like I just, I don't want any part of what's going on with Tom Brady and his wife. But Tom Brady and Aaron Rodgers making me hate football every time they play,

making it seem like, you know how they're like, oh, it's a kid's game we get paid for. Like, not for those guys. It's an old man's game that they hate and want you off their lawn and never want to touch a football ever again. It is the most miserable experience watching those two men play football, and that is a hate to see it because at very least, no matter as Vikings fans, how much these folks here in Minnesota have hated Aaron Rodgers, you got to admit,

you have to admit when he makes one of those throws, you're like, ah, it's pretty cool. I mean, he's not even really doing that and he just looks like he can't stand playing football it's like you hate to see that yeah 100 all right well great stuff as always really appreciate your time again our thoughts are with the zimmer family the passing of adam zimmer and i appreciate um you know your comments on that jeremiah and our support is with them for sure so uh we will talk again next week after Kirk Cousins goes back to D.C. for the first time. That will be very interesting, and we'll see who's playing right guard

at that time. So thanks a lot, Jeremiah. See you next week.