Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Vikings trenches are finally dominant
Episode Date: July 14, 2025Matthew Coller is joined by one of our favorite offensive and defensive line guys, Brandon Thorn of Trench Warfare to discuss the Minnesota's revamped lines and what they say about the Vikings in 2025....
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Hey, everybody.
Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider.
Matthew Coller here and we are continuing Tape Guy Week with one of our favorite tape guys
of all time here on this show.
Brandon Thorne of Trench Warfare, once known as the O-Line guy originally on this podcast.
And guess what?
We're going to talk about the Minnesota Vikings trenches.
And just before we went on, I said to Brandon, look at us,
who would have thought we're talking about the Minnesota Vikings offensive line
in the off season,
as if it could be one of the five best in the national football league.
It's taken so many years, Brandon. There's so many guards along the way.
We started way back talking about TJ Clemmings many years ago Brandon, there's so many guards along the way. We started way back talking
about TJ Clemmings many years ago and the names that they've gone through to get to
this point, uh, even through last year, pretty remarkable. But, uh, am I, am I getting too
jacked up Brandon about this Vikings offensive line? Cause I feel like we've gotten to a
point where it could actually be a difference maker.
Uh, no, I don't, I really don't think so. I mean, I see this as a, I don't know, top five, six, maybe seven at the worst
offensive line entering the year.
I haven't done my official rankings yet for established the run, but they're,
you know, kind of have like a rough draft right now and yeah, they're going
to be in my, my top seven for sure.
So yeah, that's as good as it's been since we've started talking years ago.
So yeah, I don't think you're getting too far ahead of yourself.
Before we get into just kind of each guy and their outlook and a little bit on
the depth, you've been doing trench warfare for a while.
You've been following offensive line and O line masterminds, which is the,
the huge event in Texas with all the offensive linemen and ex-offensive linemen
talking about
the craft and all that. And you've been involved in that now for a long time. Let me first get an
understanding of your opinion of how much having an elite offensive line matters, because some of
us haven't gotten a chance to cover an elite offensive line. Now I've seen them. I get it.
Like I've seen Philadelphia play in the Super Bowl and all that. But what is the
difference between an offensive line that survives a season, like I would say of the Vikings last
year and an offensive line that is a real problem for a defense? Yeah. I mean, you just look at the
playoff teams over the last few years and I think it kind of speaks for itself, you know, especially
over the last few years and I think it kind of speaks for itself, you know, especially,
I think of Detroit, even Denver last year and kind of what they built around a rookie quarterback and
Bo Nicks or second year, I can't remember, Bucks, the Bills, the Eagles, all these teams last year who were, you know, good teams. I think they were, you know, of course, you have a really good
quarterback as some of those guys do, that helps, but all those teams and others, you know, good teams, I think they were, you know, of course, you have a really good quarterback, as some of those
guys do, that helps, but all those teams and others, you
know, had really high end offensive lines. And I mean, it
raises your floor and your ceiling really. And of course, I
think the play caller is a huge part of making your offensive
line really good as well. But yeah, I mean, it's just
something that I think I was just thinking to myself today
just you know bouncing stuff around in my head and just thinking like
If I was like starting a team or something or part of a front office
I mean one of my goals definitely in the NFL would be to establish an offensive line pipeline
You know similar to of course what the Eagles did that's kind of the you know, similar to of course, what the Eagles did. That's kind of the, you know,
the standard, but even somewhere like Tampa, you know, I mean, I think they firmly have a pipeline
going right now of guys and they've rebuilt their offensive line numerous times since Jason Light
has been the GM there. And, you know, you look at what the Bills are doing now with Aaron Kroemer,
and he's been there since 22 and they've just steadily been climbing and I think this will be their
best offensive line that they've ever had this year and so yeah I think just
when you have an offensive line like that it just it can make all the
positions around them their job easier essentially I think that's what it does
and you know I've referenced the data points about clean pocket performance
versus under pressure, which in part is a quarterback stat as well.
They cause some of their own pressures and I'm sure there's lots of discussion
about that among offensive linemen.
But when you think about the run game, a few years back, uh, one of the guys from
PFF who now works in the NFL in data, did a study about running backs before the contact
and if a run is perfectly blocked.
So if every, by their data, which I know can be, you know, a discussion point, but by their
data, if every block was good, like what did the running back do?
And unsurprisingly, the performance gap was massive between if one guy makes a mistake
versus if all five are working in unison. Surprisingly, the performance gap was massive between if one guy makes a mistake versus
if all five are working in unison.
And I just think it also gives so much confidence to every player around them.
Like receivers know that they can run their route.
Like they don't have to rush.
They don't have to cut it short.
Quarterbacks know that they can get into their drop and see down the field and not have to
constantly be thinking if they're going to get crushed. And in the backfield, where you're supposed to run is where you can run. You
don't have to make stuff up on the fly because your offensive linemen are constantly making
mistakes. It just, it's this confidence builder for everybody else. And I think the Vikings
have had this in certain areas. They've had it right and left tackle, but they have not
had it on the interior.
So that's where I want to begin with their first round draft pick, Donovan Jackson. You
and I talked before the draft about other potential opportunities. And I think we did
get into Donovan Jackson a little. When you look at how they want to run the football,
their style of running Jackson's experience at a high level at Ohio state, his athleticism,
I think that it works well. And the guys through his left and right for a transition into the NFL
But what do you think that that transition will be like for Donovan Jackson to go from playing?
Left tackle a lot last year for Ohio State to now
playing in the NFL
Yeah, I mean, you know, I'm not always confident about my comparisons
that I put out there on, cause for bleach report, we have to do NFL comps
for every single guy. So, you know, 65, 70 comps for offensive lineman.
I mean, sometimes it, you know, it makes a lot of sense and I feel great
about it. And sometimes I'm just kind of, you know, grasping the straws,
just trying to get a name out there. So I, you know, it's just kind of
give or take on how I feel about it. But I say that to say, you know, grassman or straws, just trying to get a name out there. So I, you know, it's just kind of give or take
on how I feel about it.
But I say that to say, you know, with Donovan Jackson,
there was a comp that I felt great about.
And it's an older guy who's been retired
for a few years now, but James Carpenter,
talked about this on the athletic football show
with Robert Mays too, during the draft season.
And that was just a name when I watched Donovan Jackson,
that just made more and more sense and james carpenter
Played left tackle at alabama and then uh had a long career at guard
Uh primarily with the falcons. I think the jets too, but um
He yeah, I mean he was always a guy that you never really talked about much
But was kind of solid at everything definitely a bigger stronger
physical kind of um, you know imposing presence on the line
But definitely not like super flashy, but definitely a guy who is kind of a net asset
you know a net positive for you and I
Think Jackson has a really good chance to be in that, you know, I kind of graded him
Similar to where he went a little bit. I was I was more second round but
graded him similar to where he went a little bit. I was, I was more second round, but, uh, you know, he's a guy that I liked a lot in the, you know, in the draft relatively
speaking, um, comes from a, at least last year, especially their run game, um, was,
was awesome at Ohio state. You saw him execute a little bit of everything there, uh, under
Chip Kelly and that offense. Um, so like you've seen him kind of execute a little bit of everything
I think he has good physical traits good play strength
And I think he's probably gonna be a solid pro pretty early and I think he has a pretty high floor
I think they could also use him in a way that they haven't used too many guards in recent years
Which is in the screen game because he has such great athleticism to be able to play
which is in the screen game because he has such great athleticism to be able to play left tackle.
And I wondered about your opinion on him playing left tackle last year,
because when he was talking with us,
he discussed this conversation he had with his coaches at Ohio state where they
were like, could you please play left tackle? Uh,
that's kind of how it works in college athletics. Now, I mean, you know,
it's not just, Hey, go over there and play, but he wanted to do what was best for
his team rather than what was going to help his draft stock, which I thought said a lot
about Donovan Jackson.
And I also feel like too, if you're playing on the edge, you're facing a lot of the same
athletes that you're going to face on the interior.
Like teams are going smaller on the interior guys that are more quicker pass rushers. And
I think that that experience can ultimately benefit him in the NFL.
Yeah, I definitely think it helps. I think he was solid out there. I mean, you know,
struggled against a guy like Abdul Carter, who was top five pick and stuff. You know,
that's, that's kind of a, you know, not, not a too much of a red flag or anything, but
I mean, all in all, I think when you watch, I think he was like eight or nine games or whatever it was. Um,
I think he was just solid, you know, kind of similar to what he wasn't left guard.
Uh, you know, it, it helped, um, kind of being in a run first scheme,
or I think they ran the ball, you know, 55, 56% of the time or something like
that. And, uh, you know, a lot of play action RPOs, sorts of stuff.
So he was in good positions, but nonetheless, I he kicked out there on a whim like he said and
Allowed that offensive line to just and that offense, you know to keep being kind of a stable
You know presence, you know ultimately is what he was and it's pretty incredible
just what they did as an offensive line in general because they they also lost their center who won the Remington Award after 10 or 11 games and
still managed to fill that hole as well. So just a lot of good coaching happened there last year, but
yeah, I mean, I think that helps anytime you see a guard play tackle in college
I think especially like in pass protection just some of the situations that they find themselves in on an island, you know, here and there, just playing in a little bit more
space if you could function doing that.
I think it's usually a good sign for your prospects to play guard in the NFL.
Helps you just be a little bit more fluid in pass protection and a little bit more comfortable
when you do find yourselves, find yourself in that sort of situation. So yeah, I think ultimately it
kind of helped his overall stock, you know, in grade as a prospect, even if you did see him as
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Well, especially when he got to the college football playoff,
he was just really,
really good and to make progress like that.
I mean,
cause the NFL to me is all about just getting better all the time when you're a
young player,
it's going to be hard for anybody to come in.
And I want your take on that of just when you look at the numbers of young guys
coming in, it could be really hard for a lot of them.
And some guys we write off early and then, whoa, okay.
Like Andrew Thomas came into the league and struggled that first year.
And then all of a sudden kind of takes that big next step.
The Vikings need Donovan Jackson to come in pretty quickly and be good for them.
He doesn't have to save the offensive line, but he has to be a cog in the machine.
Why do you think it is so difficult for offensive linemen?
It might be, I think interior even might be
the most difficult transition of any position
on the entire field.
Like why is that so tough for them?
I think offensive line in general,
well, I think it is kind of important to to distinguish inside and outside
I mean inside I think the reason why that would probably be more difficult is twofold. I would say the level the level of competition
Just the amount of high end three technique interior defensive lineman that there are in the nfl
Is a lot different than college, maybe as
much if not more so than any other position from college to pro. And there are some really
good obviously defensive lines in college, but just the NFL is a whole different beast.
I've been saying for years since we started talking that I think defensive line is the
deepest position in football receiver, maybe have something to say about that over the
last three or four years. But yeah, so I think level of competition is one of them.
And then also for interior in particular, just the speed, you know, just increases
in the NFL and especially on the inside where you have to make decisions a little
bit quicker than you do a tackle where you have a little bit more space, therefore
a little bit more time theoretically to make decisions.
So that's kind
of why I would say that. But I still think tackle is a little bit more difficult just from a physical
standpoint. There's just not that many guys that are able to play tackle. And yeah, I mean,
the tackle depth in the NFL looks a little bit worse than guard depth. But yeah, I mean,
it's still hard to play, especially early, either inside or
outside on the offensive line as a, as a rookie.
And I think it's becoming more complicated for guards with a lot of
stunts and twists and things like that.
I looked at, uh, years of data going back, um, maybe to 2017 with guards
and the amount of pressures that they've been allowing,
which I think is more of an attack thing on the defensive side, has gone up and up and up and up.
And at one time, I think a lot of teams just in their team building philosophy was,
hey, look, we can replace the interior guys. It's all about the tackles. That's where all of our money should go.
And I think the Vikings spending as much as they did is a sign of them reading
the room and going, you can't really do that anymore, especially with teams
drafting a Kalijah can't see high.
Because that guy's going to get in the backfield.
Just an example of a younger defensive tackle.
They also teams are using NASCAR packages and lining up guys who are
edge rushers over guards now and just making their life
even more difficult, like on third downs, which leads me to the middle,
which is Ryan Kelly.
I think Ryan Kelly has been one of the best offensive linemen over the last
decade in the NFL. And it's when a guy gets older like this and he has some
injuries, it becomes a little bit harder to evaluate. Like, what are they getting?
Are they getting 17 games?
Has his play dropped off a little bit?
But I think with Ryan Kelly, there's two things that if he does,
it'll be a home run signing for them.
Number one is lead J.J. McCarthy.
And number two is pass protect for J.J. McCarthy.
The rest of the stuff you could figure out.
But if he is your commander of that offensive line
And he's got Donovan Jackson in the right places and he's got Will Fries in the right places
I think that even if his play is not the same as it was five years ago
He will be immensely valuable for this team. What do you see with him and his fit in this offensive line?
Yeah, I think he's definitely more of a sturdy presence
than what Viking fans has been used to
with Garrett Bradbury over the last several years.
So I think that's one thing,
just a little bit more firm of an anchor,
which you would expect.
So that's been something that he's always had,
his whole career,
while also offering kind of that good movement ability
in the run game as well,
you know, that's why he was a first round pick and all that as a center. But yeah, a lot of wear and
tear on his body over his career. I think the biggest thing, like you said, is just durability
and availability is like, how many games you're going to get, you know, I think if you get,
you know, 1415, then that's that's a win. So yeah, I think as long as he's out there. He's he's gonna be an above-average
Center with some very good aspects, especially, you know leading JJ McCarthy and those sorts of things that are kind of hard to measure
I think he's definitely gonna bring that
but the biggest thing with Kelly I think is just the availability factor
But I I really like the idea of going veteran to veteran center and not young with the young
quarterback.
I think that makes a lot of sense.
And yeah, just to kind of piggyback on what you said about just how difficult it is to
play interior offensive line.
I think right now what we're seeing, you touched on it, you know, NASCAR packages and, you
know, outside NASCAR packages and you know Outside guys reduced inside, but I mean, I think the biggest thing is what?
Your defensive coordinator has done so well and a couple others is simulated pressures
Fooling offensive linemen and to not really knowing who is coming
That's been just there's kind of been an influx of that. It's always been here, but I think more teams are doing that
So it's just become more difficult from a mental perspective
For the interior in particular to just figure out who's coming a lot of pick stunts
Which is something that we're gonna actually be talking about an offensive line offensive line masterminds in two days
I'm making a video on it right now to present
there and
that's pick stunts essentially like the center, especially with guards too, you know, getting picked off from the side. So, you know, your eyes are in one spot and you're
expecting contact. And then all of a sudden he drops out and then the adjacent guy that you
weren't even expecting year holds you and knocks you over and creates a seam in the offensive line.
That's something that has been a huge issue the last couple of years for interiors across
the league.
So yeah, it's just the stunt and blitz design and then the simulated pressures is really
went up a notch.
So I think having Kelly though, you know, and just all the football he's seen is, is
going to help with that. Yeah. If you want to talk about something that, you know, of course, if Brian Flores
would go insane, if this happened, but something that is legitimately dangerous, uh, it's that
it's, and the Vikings love to do it on defense. Um, so they'll send just for example, to kind
of paint the picture here. Uh, let's say they'll have an outside rusher turn the offensive lineman to his outside,
and then they'll have like Blake Cashman come in and drill him on his right
shoulder and send him flying and someone else will come blitzing behind him.
It's it's not a safe play, but it is something that they're using all the time.
And I don't know what the answer is.
I guess you guys are going to figure that out at offensive line masterminds,
but I think it just speaks to how challenging it's become intellectually,
which I think is also part of them drafting Donovan Jackson,
getting Ryan Kelly and trying to direct that entire operation to be able to read
where the defense is coming from with a young quarterback.
That's putting a lot on his shoulders.
And I think that's why he was the right guy to do this because as
much as I respect Garrett Bradbury as a starting NFL center over
a number of years, I don't know that he was always the best at
this. It felt like they got got a lot when it came to some of
that. Like you need to read and react and be in command.
And I don't know how you feel about this. You're around
offensive lineman all the time.
You know, a lot of these guys, the best ones, they got a little bit
of, you know, a little bit of edge to them, a little bit of like, I'm the dude, I'm the
man, I'm going to hit somebody out here. And I don't know that, and this is Brad bears
one of the nicest players I've ever covered. I don't know that he had that in the same
way Ryan Kelly has that.
Yeah, I think that's fair. Um, He also doesn't quite have the stature either to
back up that mentality if he did have it. So it's just kind of a like a double negative there. So
yeah, it was it was tough to overcome and you know, in terms of getting to that next level,
but you know, I agree with you, it was admirable what he was able to do just, you know, of being out there as often as he was and now still probably gonna get the chance to do it again
with the Patriots, so
yeah, I think Kelly just gives you a more physical presence at center and
You know based on especially how the end of last year and you know went with the Vikings that Rams game
You know, I mean I think you, the amount of stunts that they
ran with, um, Kobe Turner and Braden Fisk and, and just how disastrous that was for the interior. Um,
I think that was a, a good, uh, a good, um, kind of moment to, you know, motivate building an interior
like this. What can you tell me about Will Fries other than that he has a delicious last name?
I mean, he is you talk about a guy who's large.
I mean, just as a presence and the run game for him.
This is where the Vikings were really, really short last year.
I'm sure when you watch their tape, you were like, come on, guys, it's it's third and two.
You can do it.
No, actually, you can't.
I think Aaron Jones led the NFL,
this is not a running back stat,
led the NFL in inside the red zone,
negative runs or percentage of runs
that went for zero yards or less.
That is totally on the interior of the offensive line.
And I feel like this is totally why you go
and get Will Fries to have a more intimidating presence
that can move bodies when they need to convert
on those short yardage situations.
Yeah, Will Fries, man, I mean, he's been one
of my favorite players in the league on the offensive line
the last few years before the injury.
You know, definitely a taller player, you know,
not the longest arm, shorter arm, shorter wingspan,
but definitely, you know, six, six plus or whatever.
And the thing about Wolf Reiss though is,
yeah, I think he's pretty solid
at pretty much everything you look for
in terms of critical factors, you know,
like play strength and athletic ability and all that.
I think it just checks those boxes.
A little bit more power than I thought
coming out of Penn State,
but the thing that he brings, I think more than anything,
he's the enforcer of the offensive line,
especially now in Minnesota.
I mean, in Indy, he had Quentin Nelson too,
but I mean, he was arguably a little bit more nasty
than Quentin Nelson at times, you know, to be honest.
So he's, I think coming to Minnesota,
I can't think of a guy that you've had like this in a while.
He's definitely gonna tow the line as a finisher. He's going to get
under defenders skin. He has the you know, enough size and definitely the power to back it up. So he's going to be
finishing guys putting guys in the ground, setting the tone, you know, so yeah, as long as he's healthy, man, I mean,
it's going to be really fun to watch because that's how I see healthy, man, I mean, it's going to be really fun to watch
cause that's how I see him, especially on this line. He's, he's going to be the enforcing kind
of presence for you. And it makes it a lot of fun to watch. I really appreciate his game.
Well, and that's even what I was kind of getting to with Ryan Kelly is like where
the nasty factor has just been missing from this offensive line for a really, really long time.
I mean, I think the last, the last Vikings offensive line that fans could say,
you rolled into the stadium every single week with like, yeah,
you don't really want to play against these guys because they're going to hurt you.
Is probably when Brett Favre was the quarterback.
I mean, it's just been a really long time.
If you had, you know, a Steve Hutchinson on your offensive line,
you felt pretty darn good about walking in. But it has been a really long time on the interior.
And that's when they signed Will Fries and you look at his background, a guy who has
consistently gotten better and better and developed.
And I really liked hearing that from Ryan Kelly, that he was somebody the other offensive
lineman were proud of, that he had come in as what a seventh round draft pick.
You're not thinking too much. Maybe the guy doesn't even make the team and then
better and better and better and better. And that to me is always a sign there.
And then when you watch him, he's moving bodies. He's pushing people around.
He's getting in people's faces. And again, like make make offensive line fun to
watch for Minnesota Vikings fans. And that actually might be the case with
Will Fries. I also think that there is there are some questions though about to watch for Minnesota Vikings fans. And that actually might be the case, uh, with Will
fries. I also think that there is, there are some questions though, about all three of
these guys, because as much as, uh, you know, you're probably excited to watch Vikings interior
online for the first time forever fries is coming off an injury. Kelly's got, you know,
some question marks Jackson. Uh, we don't know exactly what he's going to be. So how do, how do we evaluate this? Like, how do we think about the odds of this succeeding, what it can be the
high end, what could go wrong?
Because I think that it could swing the entire season for them, whether
these three guys come together.
Yeah.
I mean, it is a little bit up in the air.
I mean, I feel in terms of durability
Uh, I don't know all the details on wolf rise recovery, but that was a brutal leg injury last year compound fracture
I think um, it was it was really bad
Uh, and then kelly just being closer to the end than the beginning with wear and tear
Um, i'm just not sure there. Uh, jackson. I feel durability wise you should
I mean unless something catastrophic happens
You're probably going to get almost all the games out of Donovan Jackson. So at least you have that there
But yeah, anytime you have a rookie you just don't quite know but I feel pretty good about Donovan Jackson actually being
You know solid and and available
um
And uh, yeah, I mean you you bake that variance into the projection. I think you have to look at just who they are individually when they are healthy, try to get as much detail as you can on.
I think Kelly's healthy and all that is just you know how much is the wear and tear going to affect his season that's just up in the air and then will fries is just how's he moving right now how's he moving in a month is he practicing and full all that kind of stuff and you know it's it's kind of up in the air and then Will fries is just, how's he moving right now? How's he moving in a month? Is he practicing and full all that kind of stuff?
And you know, it's, it's kind of up in the air right now.
We'll know more in a month, I would say, especially with fries.
But, um, uh, you know, when you look at the tackles too, I still feel like.
Top seven ish, you know, going into the season is more than justified.
Uh, so, you know, it's, you know, there's a little bit of an unknown as there are
with pretty much almost every offensive line to some degree, but the talent is
there. So, you know, I, I feel still pretty good about it. Even with that said.
So there's one more guy on the old line I want to talk about and then switch over
to some new D line additions. And that is Justin school.
What what names they have here with Will fries and Justin school.
But I am going to tell you the truth, Brandon.
I don't know anything about Justin school other than that.
He played a little bit for Tampa Bay last year, and that is that's about it.
He's kind of developed for them for a couple of years.
What do you know about him?
Because it's possible that he could start the first week or two while Christian Derisaw continues his recovery.
Yeah, I mean, I think the biggest thing that I could say, you know, aside from him being, you know,
kind of a competent backup is just the value that he brings in the swing tackle role that, you know,
I got some really good insight on talking to Tristan
Wirfs, who was, you know, school was backing him up last year, he played right in left tackle for
the Bucks, but you know, swing, swing tackle there for the Bucks. And I think just the way that
Tristan Wirfs kind of spoke glowingly about him, he talked about how beneficial it was to have school
on the sideline every week, just to kind of be his
eyes and ears when he was on the, you know, on the field, just seeing things, seeing tendencies, giving him, you
know, brief scouting reports on guys, kind of, you know, what he was seeing. And then, you know, as well in terms of
the preparation during the week, also doing the same thing, just being a guy that he leaned on heavily to prepare every
week. So I think he's, it's kind of similar to the backup quarterback thing where, yeah, I mean, there's some backup
quarterbacks who you probably don't want playing more than a week or two, but their value off the field is just
immense in terms of how they can help prepare the starter. And I think that you're getting a similar dynamic with school. And I
think it's really cool to, you know, do that for a guy like Darasaw and even O'Neill to some degree, but especially Darasaw
being still a little bit younger, having a guy like school, you know, who has provided that backup kind of value to, you know, Trent Williams and, uh, Tristan worse and all the
things that he's learned from those two guys. And now, you know, you're, you're giving that to
Darasaw as a resource. I, I really like it. And, you know, um, yeah, but, you know, again, you
don't want to rely on them as a starter, obviously for more than a game or two, but yeah, I think
there's going to be a lot of hidden value that he's going to bring to Daris on his development.
And that's really, you look at the tackles around the league, there's just not that many
great ones. I mean, there's only, you talk about where you're at with backups. It is
like a backup quarterback situation because any given year there's maybe 18 quarterbacks
who play pretty well out of 32. And I feel like the same sort of thing for tackles
and the rest of them are, Hey, can you come in for a game or two, handle your business and then get
the starter back in there. And that's what they might have to do here. And you'll know with the
school though, that he's going to be prepared. And if you have the rest of the offensive line,
you can survive it. They're playing Chicago and Atlanta to start the season. To me, those are not
two of the more terrifying
edge rusher situations in the league. Montez sweat mostly lines up on the right side. I
don't know what James Pierce is going to be in the NFL. So, you know, can you survive that
as a veteran for a week? I think they can, but it's, you're never going to find a game-changing
backup left tackle anywhere. That's why Rashad Hill was so good for a long time for the Vikings.
It was like you could go in and you get a couple weeks out of them and then you're good to go.
On the defensive side, the Vikings kind of went along the Ryan Kelly route with two guys who are
not in their peak but are still above average talents. They're coming off some injuries,
but the last time we saw a full Javon Hargreve, which by the way, found out this year it's pronounced J von and not
Javon. So that for future podcasts for you. Yeah. I didn't know that until we met him.
I was like, Oh, okay. Every broadcast has called them Javon the whole time. But anyway,
J von Hargrave and Jonathan Allen, I think that Hargrave was a potential very serious steal though for the Vikings because his injury
I've seen other guys have it. Usually they come back pretty okay
I mean to Neil Hunter had it that that shoulder or pack injury and
The last time he was playing the man was an absolute monster for the San Francisco 49ers
I don't think you usually get your
hands on somebody like this unless there's an injury situation. So let's start with him
a little bit on the undersized, but the penetration element to the interior of the Vikings D line
is just not happened in years. And I think it kind of starts with him as a pure, I am
going to line up and get after that quarterback that they just, they really haven't had.
Yeah. I mean, there's a ton of potential, uh, with, with him and John Allen here. I
mean, these are, these have been two of the more underrated best three technique pass
rushers and even, you know, to in the run game, it's at some respects too, over the
last four or five, six years. I mean, yeah, again, you know, maybe a little bit closer to the end in the
beginning, maybe a little bit more with Alan, but, um, just, yeah, the, the
amount of juice that they offer to penetrate, to get guys on their heels,
uh, to, you know, actually capture the edges of guards, you know, quickly
enough to generate pressures with various moves.
Especially John Allen has one of the best single pass rush moves I've seen in 10 years.
I don't even know what you call it. We call it a bear move, a bear technique, but it's essentially
some sort of hump move that he's perfected over the years that's kind of unique to him. Some other
guys do it here and there, but he picked it up from Jim Tom Sula back in the day.
But so like Alan has this crazy signature move that guys know is coming like guards know it's coming and they still can't stop it.
And when he's healthy, even 20, 23, and then the playoffs last year, it was still on display.
And then Hargrave has just been one of the better three techniques for a long long time and I
Yeah, I think he was a triceps injury. He had or something like that
It not like a you know a catastrophic definitely not a lower half injury
Which typically steals juice a little bit more than the upper body injuries. So
Yeah, I mean I like the bets.
These are very talented veterans.
I mean, it totally reshapes the entire structure
of the defense now.
It gives them more flexibility in my mind.
They don't have to rely on manufacturing pressure
as much as they have the last couple of years.
So now they can mix in just probably some more
just true four down rushes, four down lineman rushes with all the simulated funky stuff that they can mix in just probably some more just true four down rushes for, you know, downline men rushes, um, with all the simulated funky stuff that they can mix in. So yeah, the flexibility
factor from a defense, um, uh, defensive play calling perspective, I think takes a huge
step forward with these two and yeah, we'll just see if they can stay healthy, you know,
especially Alan, but I like the
bets though.
Sorry.
It was a Jonathan Allen had the pack and it was the triceps for Javon Hargrave.
Sorry if I had that backwards with Alan.
Here's what I'm interested in most.
It's very clear that he could still get after the passer.
You watch that playoff game.
The PFF had him at seven pressures in that game.
He was a monster. He's one of the best players on the entire field against Detroit.
So he could still do that.
The run defense.
Sometimes it's hard to figure out because, and this is where, I mean, I know that
you and I have had this discussion about grades and evaluation over the years,
because everything has context.
Some D lines want their D linemen to stop a running back
on the way to the quarterback and someone want them to stuff gaps.
And so I don't know what the assignments were for Hargrave and for Alan,
but as a run defender,
his numbers have gone down over the last couple of years.
And I think if there's one concern about this D line,
certainly these guys are still going to be able to get after the quarterback,
but it's,
are you sacrificing something on the run where they're going to play?
Say, Kwon Barkley and Derek Henry this year and Jalen hurts and Lamar Jackson.
Like there's going to be a lot of guys who can run the football against this team.
I think that's the biggest question here is when you remove Jonathan Bullard, who's such
a gap stuffer and just a big old strong body for guys that are going after the
quarterback is that going to be different for them? I mean yeah I think to some degree you know
they're maybe favoring the past rusher a little bit more you still have Harrison Phillips there
obviously so that that helps because that's what he does best. You know maybe one of these young
guys you know will be able to fill in as more of a run stuffing specialist.
Yeah, so I think that that's probably the case, but it's kind of funny because John Allen, since I've been watching him since he came into the league, especially early on, he was one of the best run defenders in the league for years. And I think it was before 2023, I want to say. He actually,
maybe you can ask him about it sometime. He, I believe he lost some weight in the offseason because he wanted to
either maintain some of his quickness or regain some of it. Or I think he was dealing with some injury stuff that was
going on. They kind of battled through. And I think that was some of the motivation for it. But I want to say he played lighter starting in 2023 and it did
to me kind of impact his ability to, you know, root his feet in the ground and actually hold ground
in the run game. And I think he sacrificed some of that when he did that. And I don't know kind of
where he is now if he's going back
To where he was before trying to find a mix in between or whatever
But it is kind of funny cuz I hear he coming out of Alabama and then you know his first few years in the league
He was a great run defender. So he's certainly very good with his technique there
It's just I think a matter of if he has enough strength and mass, you know to withstand
You know double teams and things like that. So we'll see I'm not really sure
Kind of where he is there, but it's there, you know, the capability is there
we'll see kind of what version you're getting but it's not like a
You know a guy who's just a pure pass rush specialist or anything like that. I don't think
that's Sean Allen. Maybe as of late, that's kind of been more what he has been as he's aged and
things like that. But it's just an interesting case. I'd be really curious to see how he's
treating this off season, his off season, his body and his weight relative to previous years,
because I think that's important. But yeah, I mean, I think, I think it's
probably safe to say he's probably a better pass rusher now, but how much
of a run defender you're getting is interesting.
Well, and this might be a guy for you to keep an eye on.
Jalen Redmond might be a rotational guy for them who was really
good against the run last year.
Uh, Taki Taimani is a undrafted big old man that they could stuff in there.
I think that they want to see Levi Drake Rodriguez.
They want to see some of these younger players step into these roles because in
Washington,
they wanted Jonathan Allen on the field for every single play.
And I don't blame them for that,
but I think as a guy gets a little bit older,
that becomes more difficult and the Vikings want to have a rotation there. Uh, last, last question here for you on the D line is where would you put them? Like let's, let's
include Jonathan Grenard and Andrew van Ginkle and Dallas Turner, whatever we expect Dallas
Turner to be, which maybe I can get your opinion on that before you run. But overall, like
compared to the rest of the league, you study everybody's D lines.
Is it, this is, this is where I like to cross check somebody who's looking at
everybody else because it feels to me like it's about as much talent as you can
accumulate for a front group here.
Uh, where would you put them among the best D lines in the league?
Yeah, it's, it's a good question.
I don't have a rough outline.
Like I do offensive line yet for defensive line
That's probably coming a little bit later. But just off the top of my head thinking about it
I would say top 10 to 12, you know, they're probably
Somewhere in there. So definitely an above-average unit at worst
And I just think the only thing you have to bake in here is a little bit like the offensive line
Just some variance with guys being available or
not. Because then if they're not, then you're relying on very young, relatively unproven guys real quickly. So that's
really the biggest hang up I would have when I do the rankings is just, you know, projecting that. But again, you know similar to the offensive line You have a lot of proven talent on the defensive line
You know with greener hard grave Allen Phillips, you know against the run van Genco, obviously, you know kind of a do-it-all guy
Yeah, and then I mean just to have Turner is kind of your
What is he gonna be like fifth or sixth guy in the hierarchy?
Just you know, of course you want him to be more than that as a former first-round pick
But there's not like a ton of pressure necessarily he can
You know relatively speaking so it's like I really like the position
He's in you can use him in spots and you know kind of work him in gradually
But I think you know when you saw Turner last year, there's definitely you could see the explosiveness and the twitch
You know just in how he moves how he comes off the ball his getoff You saw Turner last year. There's definitely you could see the explosiveness and the twitch
You know just in how he moves how he comes off the ball his get off
Some of the the the jolt he's able to create at the point of attack
With his hands and some of the the bend and so it's just he's just kind of a flashy guy right now
Not a lot of substance. Um
I think as he plays more that there's probably a decent chance of
some more refinement coming over time. I think he just has to play more because I don't think the physical traits and talent are there or question marks. So I'm still as close to Hazard and Courage
as I was with him as a rookie entering year two. I think it's just kind of a wait and see approach with him, but a
really nice guy to have is, you know, party rotation, uh, with that much talent
and that young.
So, uh, yeah, I'm, you know, I think top 10 ish kind of defensive line, all
things considered is pretty fair.
Yeah.
And I think with Dallas Turner, there's also just, it's the world
we live in that every draft pick is under so much scrutiny. Development is not allowed for anybody.
And if you aren't a big megastar right away, then they gave up too much for you and you're a bust
and you should quit playing football. And that's very frustrating. Especially when you have Jared
verse and what he did, you know, and they want to make that one to one comparison, but yeah, he's
on his own, you know, kind of journey. And I haven't seen anything that's like alarm
bells, you know, really, it's just like, he's so early. It's like, we, we just got to give
him some time and he's in a great position to develop. So I'm still pretty encouraged.
Okay. I'll leave you with this. So after I saw mini camp and I know you could take so
much from mini camp for my sideline scouting here,
but my original win total for the Vikings was 10 when I saw the schedule come
out and I bumped it up one after seeing mini camp because JJ McCarthy looked
like the same JJ McCarthy we saw last year in training camp that was elevating.
Am I right on too optimistic, too low?
The Vegas line is eight and a half just so you have that information as well.
Uh, where, where am I at with, uh, picking 11 wins for this team?
Um, I leaned closer to 11 than eight, you know, so I'll, I'll say that.
Um, I think that's, that's a little low for me.
I mean, I know the quarterback situation is just up in the air and you know, you have
that knowledge of actually just even those mini camp just in the air and you know you have that knowledge of actually
just even those mini camp just still seeing him and you know he's healthy moving around well all
that sort of stuff. There's a little bit more unknown than I would say you typically would have
with an 11 win projected team so maybe a little optimistic but like like I said, I mean, I think nine would be where I would
start at nine and a half, you know, cause I'm, so I'm, maybe I'm a little bit in the
middle of Vegas and you, but, uh, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty optimistic though, man.
I mean, all considering some of the unknowns that they do have just because the talent,
uh, the influx of talent, especially on the, in the trenches is just pretty dramatic.
So yeah,
I feel pretty good about it. It is the first time that we went through the O line and D line and we
weren't saying, well, you know, if this guy has to play too much or this is something they're
going to have to hope works out no tackles being moved to guard except for technically Donovan
Jackson. But that's not what that really is.
So exciting times and it will be fun to keep checking in
with you throughout the season, just in your analysis
of how this is all going with the Minnesota Vikings.
So Brandon Thorne, Trench Warfare,
make sure you go and check that out.
The best offensive and defensive line analysis
from you, Brandon.
Always appreciate your appearances on the show
and we will definitely do it again soon, my friend.
Looking forward to it.
Thanks for having me, Matt.