Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - The Will Ragatz Show: Former Viking Ben Leber talks Vikings defense and 2009

Episode Date: June 17, 2022

Sports Illustrated Vikings reporter Will Ragatz is joined by former Minnesota Vikings linebacker Ben Leber.  They talk about his playing career with a focus on the Vikings and specifically 2009. Then Ben gives his his thoughts on this Vikings offseason, the team's new defensive scheme, and some x-factors for 2022.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

All right, welcome back to another episode of the Will Raggetts show on Purple Insider. I'm Will Raggetts. I cover the Vikings for SI.com. And joining me today is a very special guest, Ben Lieber. He is a former 10-year NFL linebacker, including five years with the Minnesota Vikings. Now a broadcaster and sideline reporter with KFAN. He works with the Vikings Entertainment Network and hosts the podcast Unrestricted with Ben Lieber. And also was recently named the co-host of Twin Cities Live on KSTP. the Vikings Entertainment Network and host the podcast Unrestricted with Ben Lieber and also was recently named the co-host of Twin Cities Live on KSTP. Ben, I went on your show Unrestricted

back in January. So this is pretty cool. We're now coming full circle and I'm glad to have you on my show. How's it going, man? Dude, I'm doing great. I'm actually so pumped that you asked me to be on because I'm, you know, like I said, I wasn't just blowing smoke up yet when I when I had you on my own podcast. I'm like, well, you do such a good job of just covering the Viking stuff and keeping things concise and educational. And I've just enjoyed all of your content. So I was happy to have you on. So I'm happy to repay the favor if that's what you want to call it.

But it's good to see you. Yeah, it's good to see you, too. And I'm excited about this. And I want to talk about some Viking stuff this year, 2022 Vikings. But before we do that, I kind of want to get into your playing career a little bit. And for people who may not know your full journey, you played high school ball in South Dakota and then played at Kansas State under the Hall of Famer Bill Snyder and drafted in 2002 by the San Diego chargers and played for four seasons under Marty Schottenheimer. So like right there,

those are two kind of unbelievable coaches to have as like a young player trying to establish yourself in the NFL. What did you learn from, from those two coaches as you were getting going as a player? I think I learned that physically I could handle a pretty heavy toll because if you, if you look at, and the thing is, I didn't know it at the time, but you look at those two guys, those two, those two, you know, amazing coaches,

they didn't get to where they were by taking things light and taking the easy way out. You look at Snyder and the way he was able to turn around Kansas state, you know, I just recently read his book. Um, it's just a fantastic book, um, written about his, his whole journey from basically childhood to where he is now, a lot of stuff that I didn't know as a player. Um he, he knew that he had to take this approach of being hard-nosed, you know, he came from the Iowa Hawkeyes background. So this whole Hayden Fry thing of, of hard practices, lots of contacts, basically they are going to will themselves

into being a good football team. And he took a military style approach to psychologically, emotionally, and physically breaking players down and rebuilding them. And, you know, I was very naive when I got to Kansas state that that was sort of the, the mantra and the ethos. And, you know, in, in hindsight, I was really fortunate that, um, cause that's exactly what I needed, you know, as a player coming out of high school, I needed somebody like that. And so I was really happy that I was able to go through it, but like I was saying, dude, it was tough, dude. Our practices were, were hard and, you know, our, our padded practices, which seem like we're every day. You know, we had in-season practices that were three hours long.

You know, that's that's unheard of. You know, there even at the time, there weren't other big 12 teams doing that. So we had a long, hard, padded practices during the season, plus conditioning on Sundays and Mondays. And then I go into a San Diego situation with Marty Schottenheimer, and he's the same way. You know, his whole Marty Ball approach was, we're going to run the football, which obviously you've got to practice physicality with the offensive line and running the football,

and we're going to play great defense. And, you know, being a defensive player, it seemed like we did endless hours of nine- seven and team running drills to get the offense ready. But that was a way to get us as a defense ready too. So it was, um, I'm actually surprised I made it as long as I did just because the physical beating that going through Snyder's program and Schottenhammer's program. Yeah, no, but that'll, I mean, that'll prepare you for anything. Right. and schottenhamer's program yeah no but that'll i mean that'll prepare you for anything right and then in 2006 you joined the uh the minnesota vikings which probably that decision indirectly

directly actually led to uh us recording this podcast right now because i don't know if uh you would have ended up sticking around the vikings and uh post playing. But from that, that 2006 team was not particularly good six and 10, but 2006 to 2009, your first four years with the Vikings improved by, by two wins each year. What was kind of the, the key in your mind to just that constant level of improvement, maybe beyond just like the roster improving,

you know, I think just like the roster improving? You know, I think that's the one thing, you know, we're always going to look back in hindsight. And I think we, we look at more of the good than the bad with a lot of players and coaches and situations. And we're going to do the same thing with Mike Zimmer. We just, we just are, you know I think, I think Brad shoulders, the situation, it kind of, he kind of left on a sour note.

I think it was a little bit of a sour taste in people's mouths the way everything kind of ended, especially with Randy Moss' situation and all that. But, you know, Chili put together, I think, like you said, outside the roster, you look at some of the coaches that he had on the staff. There's not a lot of GMs helping with that. To my knowledge, that's a lot of just head coaches, their connections, their relationships. They talk to other coaches and say, hey, who's an up and coming in this area, in this area?

Who do you respect? Who's smart? Who's trustworthy? He put together a hell of a staff. And I think his ability to see talent when it comes to building a coaching staff was a large reason why we got better every year. You know, you look at our, you look at our defense, you know, we're, you probably had the stats there. I'm not a huge stats guy, but you know, we were, we were top five, if not leading the, the, the league and rush defense in what three of my five years there. I think two of the years we were the number one rush defense in the league.

And I think it wasn't even close in a couple of those years. Yeah. And in a couple of years, you know, we were top five, you know, you know, scratching again at the top of the list. So we just took a lot of pride, I know, defensively in, into being the best run defense in the league. And that, that helped our offense out, you know, that gave us momentum at times, that frustrated offenses at times. And they knew that they were in for a dogfight. And then you throw in Chester Taylor and Adrian Peterson and our ability to run the football as well. We were a tough out.

And I think teams had to adapt to our physicality, and some and a lot of teams couldn't do that. And what is it about those those run defenses that I mean, obviously, personnel plays a big part when you got the Williams wall up front and and scheme matters as well. But was it kind of just like that physicality, that a certain edge that you guys had that that kind of put you over the top among some of the other top run defenses? Yeah, I think so. I mean, you know, now we're talking, we dive in a little bit more of the roster stuff. No doubt, you know, Pat and Kevin Williams were a huge part of being able to stop the run on the inside.

And, you know, every team's going to try it, you know, and you'd be stupid not to come to a game and, you know, have some inside runs to be like, okay, let's check them. Let's see if they're on their game this week. for the most part they would try it into no avail and so they get frustrated and for some teams they had to really go out of body and like okay well we're not really a great perimeter running team but we have to be this week and once they started getting out of their comfort zone then we would we would take advantage and you know chad and ej they both

had lateral speed. You throw in Jared Allen and some of these guys on the outside, Ray Edwards. Ray doesn't get enough credit the way he played. Kind of the guy that didn't get talked about on that defensive line. You throw in B-Rob towards the end of my career. You get defensive ends that could really run. And then you talk about Antoine Winfield, who's pound for pound, the best football player I've ever played with,

you know, playing a slot, getting off of blocks, chopping offensive linemen down. We just had a, I don't know if it was ever, it was talked about, but not in great detail. It wasn't like we had all these little sit-down powwows about, all right, this is how we're going to be the best run defense in the league. It was more of just it got beat into us to play your role, do what you're supposed to do. It's about the team and all this other stuff. And they really gave us the love that I think we needed

to keep motivating ourselves in the meeting rooms. You know, we, you know, starting with Mike Tomlin, my first year, he did such a good job of taking the nuance play that was not a stat building play and to say, Hey, Will, you know, you chewed up that double team. You know, look, look what happens when you do that. When you do your job up front and you chew up that double team and that guy can't get off the block, there's Chad making the play in which he would have been blocked on any other situation, you know?

And I think he really empowered guys by making sure that, Hey, let's look beyond the stat sheet and look at the reasons why that we're successful. And it's not because of the guy that makes the tackle or even the guy that takes down the initial block. It's these other guys down the, down the line that are doing their job. And so I think he did such a good job of just letting us know, playing and play out. It's not about just the guy at the point of attack. It's, it's all across the board and he would highlight

those things and, and, you know, fuel your motivation every week to be like, all right, I want to be that guy. And more importantly, I didn't want to disappoint. Nobody wanted to disappoint Tomlin. Nobody wanted to disappoint Leslie Frazier and also their position coaches. Yeah. And that's something that maybe fans just watching the game, I'll miss like the impact that so many different people have to one guy making a tackle or one guy getting an interception or offensively as well. But those teams, those Vikings teams you were on it early on there was kind of a a mix and a a variety of quarterbacks there you had brad johnson uh gus ferrat t jack and then in 2009 uh probably maybe the most famous like specific pursuit of a player

um for sure in vikings history but it's up there in nfl history even um with with brett farve what do you remember about that whole saga as a player like not knowing whether it was going to happen or not well quite honestly i think myself and a lot of people were thinking well it's about damn time you know because you know you're probably familiar with the backstory with that is back in 2008 when he went to the jets you know we were long rumored to that's where he wanted to come to the minnesota vikings and um and so we knew we knew even a training camp before that there was there was mutual interest there they were doing their best to try to get Brett directly from the Packers. And obviously the Packers, they're saying, hell no, we're not just going to give you Brett Favre, even though that we have Aaron Rodgers.

So that's why Brett had to go to New York. You know, as much as he said that he was and I'm sure he was all in and invested with the Jets and all the other stuff. But I think everybody knew that that was just a one-time thing, you know, you know, short of them going to the super bowl or something. He, that was just a stop before he could basically satisfy a clause to not go directly in division. So when we knew that we were going to get him and it was happening, it was kind of a sense of relief of, okay, this is actually happening.

This has kind of been a year in the making. And then nobody could have expected, I think the, the, the shadowing and the coverage that he got, you know, we all thought it was silly, kind of cool, you know, the helicopters, the helicopter, you know, the, the celebrity status that he got got you just don't i don't know maybe it makes more sense now because we live in a little bit more of a reality tv show uh world and culture but at the time that seemed like we're a reality tv show it's like is this is this real is this really happening um i was in the cafeteria. I still remember exactly where I was. I was in the cafeteria. We were watching the monitors and the television screens about

the helicopter coverage and all that stuff. And it was just wild. It was really wild to watch them come down the interstate, turn off as they're coming to Winter Park. And we're like, he's going to be coming right here, right in front winter park. And we're like this, he they're going to, he's going to be coming right here, right in front of us. And sure enough, there goes the suburban. Um, we see the coverage on the TV screen. He pulls into the back parking lot and we're like, he's walking into our building right now and we're having lunch, you know, and then, um, you know, to go down and meet him and to see him, it was, it was sort of surreal because he has that magnetism that you hear about, but until you witness it and feel it and you're like, damn, that this is,

this is what having a true superstar on your team feels like. And that's, and that's what he was. He was, he was sort of larger than life. And, uh, he jumped right into the culture immediately. Well, yeah. And then that team starts like six and oh, starts 10 and one. Like, were you surprised by the way that it just kind of came together and clicked as, as immediately as it did? Not really, you know, because like I said, we, we knew we were very confident that we were really just one or two players away.

And obviously the quarterback position was a, was a big part of it. We were pretty much set on defense. We were happy with the way the defense was going. We knew that we were going to be playing well. We had some weapons on offense, you know, Sidney Rice, we thought was, you know, was going to be a player in the right situation. Obviously we had Adrian. So it's, you know, you look at our offensive line

and we had a gigantic offensive line. So there's so much that, all right, check that box, check that box. We've got the makings of a good team. We just need that one spark. And so, you know, when we got that spark with Brett and we got that spark after that 49ers game with the Greg Lewis touchdown,

that's what solidified sort of the magic of that season. Like, all right, here we go. Buckle up. This is going to be a fun ride. Go to soda stick.com. That is S O T a S T I C K. Our loyal sponsor, check out all of their great Minnesota themed gear for your playoff run in hockey or for baseball season. If you're headed out in the nice weather to a baseball game. That is S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K, SodaStick.com.

Hats, T-shirts, hoodies if you need them for a cool evening in the summer. SodaStick.com has you covered. Was there one game, like you mentioned, I was going to bring it up of the that Greg Lewis play um but also I mean going to and oh against the Packers with Favre was there was there a game or a moment or something in that regular season that that sticks out the most to you like wow this team is is really good or there's something special about this team maybe uh i would say that 49ers game was the one that not only the 49er game was important because san fran has always had you know they've always had such a good team and they've always been a tough out no matter what the record says and even that

year that was the team when you look at the schedule if they were the barometer for physicality and if if we were going to make a run for the super bowl then we were going to have to play a team like san francisco and who knows at that point in time where they're going to end up in the at the postseason or whatever but we knew that all right this is a good test for us you know we know that we can play with some athletic teams, but can we play with the physical teams? And, you know, winning that game, even though it came down to a Hail Mary, you know, proved to us that, hey, we can match people's athleticism and we can match people's physicality. So there's not a team out there that is going to be head and shoulders above us. It's just going to take some dumb luck, which we as we get into the season at the end of the year, it's going to take some fluky things to happen for us to lose.

So that that game sticks out. You know, I think the game at home against Green Bay really sticks out. I mean, that was about as electric of an atmosphere as I can remember being in that the old metrodome it was um prime time game you know so much you know pomp and circumstance so much noise so much energy and um that game was just fun you know that game i look back at that game like that was just sometimes sometimes you know you do ride these ebbs and flows during the game you know you you're really really high at the start of the game and then sometimes because of the way the game is being played you kind of get into a lull i don't ever really feel like there was ever that lull like my i think

my my adrenaline system was redlining the whole game it was just on high i still remember after the game getting into the um the elevator getting text messages from friends and still just feeling this like euphoria, you know, it was, it was, you know, three plus hours of just, you know, straight football heroin. Yeah. That's awesome. And, and then that team goes to the playoffs and the first game after, after the buy just blowing out the Cowboys, Sidney Rice, three touchdowns. I still remember where I was as a 12 year old watching that game and just so

convinced that this, that that was the Vikings team, but that was going to win a Superbowl. Was it hard to like not have those thoughts after you, I mean, that was a really good Cowboys team and you guys just, just wiped them out. Yeah. We pretty much dismantled them. I mean, there was never even a doubt. I think, I don't know if there was ever a point in the game where it seemed like they had the upper hand um so let me ask you where were you then as a tool i was at burger jones do you remember burger jones it's not yeah it's not open

anymore but it was it's right over by um yeah lake like the lake calhoun commons area whatever you call it dame acasca the current name yeah and it And it was a great restaurant. I was with like a couple of family friends and my parents were there and man, that was just the whole, the whole place was locked into that game and that was really fun. So you were at that, you were at Burger Jones the whole game. Yeah. I think I was there. I think we left like in the late third or the fourth or something because we were like, this game's over and we were, I'd for a while but yeah i don't i don't even remember why i like agreed to

not be like in my basement locked into that game but yeah it worked out really well i also remember where i was the following week in my basement at my parents house um but yeah yeah that one's probably more more memorable yeah i think we have to talk about it. I mean, I don't, not to bring up the old, the old scars, but like, what do you remember? What sticks out to you most about that game in new Orleans? You know, on a personal level, the thing that sticks out the most that, you know, it sounds so cheesy to say this, but I was really proud of myself about how I was able to stay focused, you know, throughout the week and even the day of the game and into the game. You know, it's an environment and a game I've never been a part of.

We all know in the back of your mind, you win this game, you're going to Super Bowl. We know the importance of it, the gravity and the weight. But we also know as professionals, you know, there's, you know, you gotta put that stuff aside. It can be distracting. You know, you can't, you can't look at the finish line before you even start the race. And so, um, I was able that whole week just to, you know, I think I, I personally acknowledged, all right, big game. Cool. We just came off a big game. All right. No different. It was like that one little moment of time where I recognized the importance of the game, and then I was able to kind of put it aside

and compartmentalize it, and then just focus on the game plan. All right, we play this team very well. The Saints do nothing that we're never prepared for. We always give Drew Brees fits. It's going to be a hostile environment. Let's just stick to the let's just let's just stick to the x's and o's so you know the whole week i think collectively as a team we were we

were locked in you know we're ready to go and then the day of the game you know like as if with with every primetime game the days can get really really long and the coaches do their best to kind of get you up get you moving around get your brain active brain active, but not don't, don't, you know, don't get your pistons firing too fast and too early. You don't want to, you don't want to burn out before the game starts. So, you know, all of that was just clicking. Like I felt good, you know, nervous, excited, but you know, I, I didn't, I wasn't letting my, my emotions get the best of me the day of the game.

And, you know, even through the game, you know, riding all the highs and lows and all that stuff, you know, I think I was, I was really just dialed in to, to, all right, let's just take it series by series, you know, every series let's, you know, and I had, you know, I had, you know, a pretty big responsibility is that as that season, you know, the, the season went on, you know, EJ Henderson was injured and I had to take a bulk of, you know, I basically took all of his snaps on the nickel defense. So that was, you know, I felt a big responsibility being the green dot linebacker to get everybody lined up, get all the calls, get all the adjustments, you know, and the saints do quite a bit of that. So from a mental standpoint, I, I couldn't, I couldn't be distracted because, you know,

the, the other, the other 10 guys depended on me getting the right checks out and, uh, and kind of knowing what was going to happen next. And so, um, I felt really good about that, you know, from a team standpoint, you know, obviously, um, we were, we were in it, you know, we were winning it, you know, we were, we were, uh,. We were a timeout away, a few yards short. Was it four yards? Is that all Favre had to convert for that first down? And I can't go into – I don't know the reasons why, A, he didn't just run it. I haven't truthfully even watched that playback.

I mean, I hear that Bernard Berrien was wide open. Why he didn't throw to him, I don't know. Did he not see him? Whatever. I kind of know the story a little bit behind the Tahe 12-minute in a huddle situation. Obviously, all the fumbles that we, the times that we put the ball on the ground.

Obviously, I remember my pass interference call. You know, the fumble that Chad Greenway, you know, creates, you know, diving over the top of the pile in a short yardage situation. He puts his head on the football, and they don't give us that. You know, the ball's clearly out. You you know i remember a lot of those things and look as bad as we played from a turnover standpoint we were the better team and that's uh that's what i i think that's what hurts the most is is we knew that we were the better team.

Obviously we did not execute the way that we should have. I think they had something to do with that and I'll give them some credit, but I thought we got screwed on a couple of calls. Obviously we got screwed on a bunch of high lows and some late hits that far didn't get called. Yeah. I mean that, that whole end of that game will stick with me forever the feeling in the locker room the feeling on the plane ride the feeling of going getting back to my home in minnesota you know at the wee hours of the morning and just staring at the blank tv screen just

thinking what the fuck just happened you know yeah? Yeah. And you know, that's, that darkness and that silence of just sitting there and thinking, Oh my God, I I've got to be in the facility at 10 o'clock tomorrow morning for exit interviews. You know, we should be getting ready for the Superbowl. You know, that's, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. And I mean that just from a, a fan at the time bowl you know that's that's what i was thinking yeah and i mean that just from a a fan at the time perspective like that that team really seemed like if if they had been able to win that game you'd been able to win that game like i think i think there when you were in the super bowl i mean we know that yeah and that's and we have you know i don't even know if we talked

about this um on my podcast, but look, all of us have friends on that, that saints team, you know, the saints played the Colts in that game. And a few weeks later, you know, I'm reaching out to my buddies, you know, say congratulations and stuff. And, and they're like, Hey man, you guys would have beat the pants off of them. Yeah. I'm like, well, it feels good that you would say that, but it doesn't, but that doesn't make me feel better. It doesn't make me feel any better. Like I know that it's good to hear you confirm my beliefs.

Yeah, but it was sort of like insult to injury. Really? I was watching that game. Like, there's no way we would have lost that Colts team. Like, I don't even think it would have been as close as that game was. Like, I think I really believe that it would have been closer to the to the Cowboys playoff game than than what the game actually ended up. They the Saints needed a pick six to win that game. Yeah. You know, they needed to pick six to turn the whole thing around.

I think if we had played the Colts in that Super Bowl, we would have been 17 point winners. Yeah. Well, one more thing we can, we can move on from the, uh, the pain and the heartbreak of that game. One more thing before we get into some, some talk about the current Vikings. I just, you, you brought up a couple of them, but I wrote this down. I wanted to just mention a couple of people that you played with, uh, on those Vikings teams and like very briefly, like 20 seconds, give me something that you remember about them as a person, as a teammate, a player, something like that. We'll start with Adrian Peterson. Workhorse.

Never seen a guy work as hard at his craft than him. He's not just pure God-given talent the guy the guy worked at it man he he worked in practice he was one of the hardest workers in practice um just like he was in the games how about uh percy harvin um maybe the second pound for pound best player I've ever played with outside of Antoine Winfield. Just, I think unfortunate that he, his situation didn't allow him to become,

I think truly a potential hall of hall of fame player that he could have been. Yeah. That's a huge, a huge what if there, how about Steve Hutchinson? The recent recently inducted hall of famer, a model of consistent excellence. what if there, how about Steve Hutchinson, the recent recently inducted hall of famer,

a model of consistent excellence. Um, everything he did looked effortless and, um, I don't know if he was ever in the wrong spot. I don't know if he ever took the wrong step. Um, obviously I'm, I'm saying that without being in the film room watching him get graded. But, you know, he he legit brought his lunch pail every day and played with the played with an edge that I think was sort of unmatched at the time. He was a he was a stud. And one more for you is Jared Allen. Who I think is one of the biggest fan favorites in Vikings history, for sure. Yeah. He was the unique

combination of true skill, and I would say he was our version of John Randall. I wish I could have played with John Randall, not only to watch him skillfully go out there and execute, but his personality, the way that he could taunt and talk to the other opponents.

That was sort of Jared. Jared kept everything fun. He's talking trash to the offensive tackles and the tight ends and the offensive line. And he was always chirping always yapping and between he and greenway it was it was quite comical on the field and and you know the reason why it was so funny is because they they weren't guys out there just talking smack you know they could back it up so oh yeah dude jared jared um was one of the more unique players i've ever been with because from a,

from a looks and from a physical tool standpoint, I don't think that he's going to wow anybody with his, with his get off, with his physique. And he's, he's certainly not the Daniil Hunter that we're used to seeing out there. You know, he was, he was just long arms effort, incredible bend and a tactician at his at his craft. And this was after you were not were no longer on the team, but just a clip that I've seen I've watched so many times. I think it was 2012 against the Buccaneers. You may have seen this one.

Jared Allen and Donald Penn got into a bit of a scuffle and, uh, they were barking at each other. And then the very next play with the dome, just rock and he beats him, uh, for a sack. And it was just electric. That that's just what sticks out to me when I think about Jared Allen. Well, you know, that's probably a long standing feud because, you know, Donald Penn was with us with the Vikings and we released him. So, you know, there was probably a lot of training camp reps and one-on-ones where those two were because Donald Penn was with us with the Vikings and we released him. So there was probably a lot of training camp reps and one-on-ones where those two were talking smack to each other. So yeah, I'm guessing they both had that game circled on the calendar.

I'm like, all right, I got to go against a familiar foe. All right, well, let's fast forward about 10 years here, a little more than 10 years. The last time we talked, I believe it was January. Mike Zimmer and Rick Spielman had just been let go we didn't yet know i don't think who was going to replace them so a lot of uncertainty um it's it's been a fun off season for me personally as someone covering this team just um usually there's a little bit of a lull before free agency in the draft but we were deep into the GM search and the coaching search. And there was the whole Jim Harbaugh thing briefly. And, um, and then free

agency, the draft it's, it's been fun. So I just kind of want to catch up with you since then and get some of your, um, general thoughts on, on this new regime and, and, um, how you're feeling about kind of the direction of direction of the Vikings heading into this pretty important season? Yeah, you know, I feel, again, we've kind of alluded to this thing of hindsight and already you can kind of look back at that search process. And it's funny because I guess I can't see it any other way. Can you imagine, let me just kind of flip this around just to prove my point. Can you imagine right now talking about Harbaugh as our head coach?

Like there's this, it just doesn't make sense, right? It just, it just doesn't, it doesn't feel right. You look at some of the GMs, would you be happy with Ryan poles? I had kind of a curious off season in chicago i'll say that right you know it's it's like i look at some of his moves i'm like if i could mirror that to the vikings i'm not sure i'd be happy maybe with some of those decisions um you know i just think that they were the staff the ownership group rob brinski, you know, all those guys that were involved, you know, when they said at the end of the year that they were going to on stuff. I really think that they, they stuck to that. And I think they found the two best guys to lead this organization. And,

you know, and I'm, and I'm purely saying that from just a fan standpoint. And then I know that, you know, because, because of my relationship with the Vikings, it's going to seem like I have to say that, but that's not true. I think that you ask a lot of fans out there and there's something about that, that mix between GM and head coach that just seems to make sense. And it seems like it fits and, you know, we don't know what it's going to look like for wins and losses,

but I'm pretty excited about it. Yeah. And you can't, you can't judge it until we actually see what happens on the field. But I've, I've said this a bunch on my show that like, just from covering the team and trying to be as impartial as possible, I've been really impressed by, um, by hearing from Kevin O'Connell kind of seeing him break down film and, um, just all the different things that he brings as a, uh, a football tactician, but also just kind of a leader of people. And I know this is his first time getting this head coach opportunity,

and it's Kweisi's first time being a GM. But, yeah, you mentioned that synergy between them. It just makes a lot of sense on paper. And the relationship between them and kind of what they've done this offseason just makes me really excited to see what it kind of turns into physically on the field. But you had a similar experience a couple times in your career, both when you were drafted by the Chargers and then when you joined the Vikings. It was the first year of a head coach.

There was also a midseason coaching coaching change in 2010 but that's kind of different um yeah but what i mean what is that like like do you think for these players um learning a new staff and just is there a certain kind of energy that comes with that and and just the possibilities when when it's when it's so new yeah for sure um it's funny because i was able to address uh i was i was brought in to do a little little talk to the all the vikings rookies several weeks ago and that's one of the things i sort of touched on was hey guys you got to keep in mind that you're you're in a really fortunate situation that the the the slate is clean.

There's going to be fresh eyes on all the veterans. There's going to be a new perspective, a new look because of a new defense and a new offense that a lot of guys, a lot of rookies that get drafted or even undrafted, they get put on these teams. They get brought in these teams, and they have all these other guys that have years with a staff, they know these players and they know what they can bring and all that stuff. And, and that's a disadvantage, you know, because if there's an ounce of, of distrust with the rookie compared to the veteran, you know, it's really easy.

And it's human nature for the coach to be like, you know, if my job's on the line, I'm going to go with this guy that I know. And in this situation, that doesn't, that's not going to happen. So, you know, use that to your advantage, you know, every, every day and really the approach shouldn't change, but it's more just a perspective that, that go in every day and just try to impress your coaches. And I'm not saying be a kiss. I don't be a kiss ass, but show that you can be trustworthy, show that you can work hard, show that you you're, you're willing to take, you know, good notes and be a good student and learn the game. Don't make the same mistake twice, all of those things.

And also just go out and then have fun and let it go and be a football player. You're going to have a more advantageous situation than a lot of rookies around the league that are in the opposite situation with veteran coaches. So for me, I was fortunate in 2002 that I think that's sort of what happened. That's why I was able to leapfrog a lot of guys and get put on the starting lineup with the second day of what happened. That's why I was able to leapfrog a lot of guys and,

but get put on the starting lineup, you know, with the second day of training camp. And I think that would not have been the case if, if Marty Schottenheimer was not a first time head coach in San Diego, you know, I think there's a little bit of ownership too, with, with, um, the rookie class with the coaching staff that, these are these are our guys so i want to i want to do what we can to make our guys succeed and so i was very fortunate to be in that situation and then you know then as a veteran coming in with with brad childress in 06 it's a

little bit of the same thing you know the gm at the time who brought me in who only lasted what a couple of months. He felt like I was one of his guys. And so I had a little bit of an upper hand and, but, you know, even Brad Childress, he had to look at the linebacker room and he had to look at everything with fresh eyes because he didn't know me either. And I think that was sort of advantageous as well. So I think it is, it certainly is a unique, unique situation that these guys should take advantage of. Yeah. It's an interesting point. And I'm curious to kind of see like how that maybe plays out for not just the rookies who may have more opportunities than we saw under Mike Zimmer right away, potentially. But also like some of the other young players second and third year guys

who were brought in by by rick spielman like wyatt davis or chas surratt rookies from last year like this is kind of a critical time for them to make an impression and um you don't have that like gm head coach that brought you in in your corner anymore you need to find ways to stand out and that's been something that ke O'Connell has talked about, like evaluating everybody, not just like obviously the rookies that they brought in, but all the young players and finding out who they think can kind of stand out and make an impact.

So I'm, I'm, I'm curious to see a lot of things during training camp, a lot of like position battles involving rookies, involving other young players, who's going to step up. And I think the Vikings for a while have had kind of a lot of star power at the top of their top of their roster. And that's still true this year. But it seems like the depth is starting to get to a pretty good point. And there's still some positions where maybe that that depth could be better.

But like, I like what they did at cornerback. I like what they did, bringing in um i like what they did bringing in a ton of people to uh compete for that right guard spot which is the only blatantly open one on the offensive line so that kind of segues me into uh what i wanted to talk about a little bit which is some x factors this year um whether it's a specific player uh maybe a entire position group maybe just like a general theme like stopping the run or something along those lines whether it's a specific player, maybe an entire position group, maybe just like a general theme like stopping the run or something along those lines. Let's go back and forth and talk about a couple X factors here.

And do you have one that jumps out to you right away? You know, I think, you know, obviously with a defensive-minded person that I am, I'll focus right on the defense first. I think one of the X factors as far I am, I'll, I'll focus right on the, the defense first. I think one of the X, X factors, as far as scheme goes is just, I think we're going to, we are going to be much more flexible with the way that we use a lot of our

players, specifically up front. I mean, that, that is, that is the benefit of a three, four defense at its core is that they're going to bring pressure. They're going to come from different angles.

They attack in so many different ways. And there's a, is a great way to disguise all this stuff with the way that Donatello does stuff with the safeties. But I think that's going to open a lot of doors and opportunity for, you know, Armand Watts to do what he does from the inside. I think that he can rush from the outside as well. You know, Armond Watts to do what he does from the inside. I think that he can rush from the outside as well. You know, are we going to see Daniil in some situations be an inside rusher? You know, can we see, you know, we all know that Zedarius from his time in Green Bay,

he had a lot of success from rushing from the inside or at least inside moves on guards and stuff like that, not just a standup outside linebacker, um, and being static out there, you know, getting these guys on the move with some of the guys that we currently have on the roster. You talk about that depth. Um, I think generous Robinson, I'm looking at all the guys that I think that have, you know, the ability to get off the ball and that create length. Um, and I think that there are guys on this roster on the on the front seven that that have that and if we can have a group of guys a nice rotation of guys not just on first and second down but on third down that can give us pass rushing ability

from all sorts of angles man that's gonna be it's our secondary is gonna love that and and i think the the opposing offenses are going to have to uh they're they're going to have to study up because i think this defense the attacking style this defense with the players that we already have and we're not even going through training camp yet i just have this feeling that we're going to be a tough out on uh on defense because we're going to get after people yeah i think there's been a lot of talk about Kevin O'Connell and the Sean McVay offense and Kirk Cousins, Justin Jefferson, all the pieces that the Vikings have an offense and that's totally justified. But I found myself really fascinated recently about the defensive side of the ball and a couple of things I've written

recently at SI.com slash NFL slash Vikings about this defense. Well, one was writing about Daniel Hunter and Zedaria Smith, because we talked to the Vikings outside linebackers coach, Mike Smith, who was just an awesome guy. It was our first time kind of talking to him as, as the media. And he's talking about how they envisioned Daniel, like you said, doing a lot of what Zedaria did in green Bay and moving around. And he put my best on your worst. If you've got a weak link at center or at left guard or something,

let's put the kneelers at areas there and have them go, go win one-on-one. So that, that part to me, I think if those two can stay healthy, that's just going to be a lot of fun to watch. And then just schematically with this, this Ed Donatell defense that he kind of crafted with Vic Fangio for so many years, it's been spreading across the league to the Brandon Staley's and, and people like that. And just the disguise, the deception, like Kirk Cousins talked a lot about it just last week about like, it's so muddy, right. Before the snap, because they're always starting

in that, that too high look. And then even a second or two after the snap, you don't like, they're still able to disguise and try to steal that second is what Patrick Peterson said, steal that second from the quarterback. And the more you can do that. I mean, I think like learning more about the scheme, like some of the personnel additions they made just make a lot of sense. Like having Lewis seen like that pick makes a lot of sense when you really look into and kind of read about this scheme and all that is required of the safeties and all that he can do so

I think this could be a this this defense could be a lot of fun to watch yeah you know I went back when we when we picked up Donatello you know I immediately went back and started watching a few of the Denver games and just to see what the defense look like. And, you know, it sounds like it's, he's going to pick up right where he left off in Denver. You know, there's, there's going to be a lot of too, too high shell looks. And it almost looks like they're, they're just using a robber as one of those safe, you know, safety is one of the robbers, you know, it's there,

they're going to be static on the, on the snap of the ball. And then one's just going to creep down on the box. And sometimes they're going to start that way. They're going to start inverted and then they're going to go to a too high look. And it all sort of happens post snap. And because because those guys have a little bit of a wiggle and movement to them, then you look at what the front seven does in a 3-4 anyway. In my time in a 3-4 defense with Wes Phillips' dad, Wade, in San Diego, he asked us to move around a lot on the front seven. So if I'm the sandbacker on the line, and let's say I'm blitzing from the defensive left,

he was okay with me lining up all the way on the right side. He would just say, hey, as long as you get to your spot and you don't get out of the spot, you guys move around. And so you throw in a little bit of that flexibility, and I'm not saying that that's exactly what Donatel does, but a lot of 3-4 defenses do that. They're going to ask those guys, those mobile pieces of the four linebackers to move too.

So now the quarterback's thinking, okay, well, normally I break down coverages based on what the safeties are doing but if i'm always getting the same look well shoot you know like i'm not exactly sure what coverage they're in now i gotta decipher from the front seven these guys are always moving around i don't know which guy's blitzing i don't know which way you, the center is going to make the call and all this other stuff. So again, I think using the word muddy is a perfect example of, and a description of what that defense is going to look like forever, every offense. And I want to hit the offense quickly. And, um, I want, I want to get an X factor from you. I'll start with one that, um, might be somewhat obvious, but i think is really important and that's irv smith jr and um the tight end room as a whole but with irv specifically i think like we know what

justin jefferson is going to do we know what dalvin cook's going to do like health pending and all that and he's and he stayed pretty healthy the last three years um we know what adam thielen can do particularly in the red zone i think like there was so much buzz last training camp, just being there every day and watching Irv Smith. Like he was legitimately one of the best players on the field a lot of days. And then unfortunately he tears his meniscus and that, that breakout season opportunity is kind of taken from him. Now he's entering a contract year and he gets another chance to have that

breakout season. And I'm just, if he can kind of like elevate his game and become such a important part of the offense that, that I think he can just based on his athletic skillset, where he's not like the biggest tight end. Like he's a very athletic dude who can still hold up in, in, in pass blocking, run blocking. Like, I just think that could possibly take this offense to another level that we haven't quite seen. Do you have, do you feel free to touch on Irv or do you have another X factor on offense? Well, yeah, I mean, I'll touch on Irv. I mean, just look at the way they use Higby and I would, I would argue, I mean, Irv's

as athletic, I'm going to hope, hopefully more athletic than Tyler Higby. Um, and Higby is a good player, you know, but I just think that there's a little bit more of a higher ceiling with, with herb Smith jr. So, um, you see the way they incorporate tight ends, the way they move those guys around and they play out in space. I think this, this offense is perfectly suited for herb. Look at herb. We all knew that herb was not an inline inline blocker. I mean, that's not going to be a specialty. He's going to. He's going to be out, you know, flexed out in space. And I think this offense is going to highlight that a lot more. I think another, you know, very obvious X factor,

and, you know, we all talk about it every week, even last season is, you know, how can we get Dalvin involved in the pass game a little bit more? You look at the way this offense is built and the running backs are going to be out in space. And whether it's an F angle in the middle of the field, whether it's a screen pass or a swing pass on the outside, we have to keep defenses honest by getting the running backs involved, catching the football. And if, if Dalvin can do that, and I'm not saying that he has to be

featured, but it's one of those things where if he's, if he's the off speed pitch that we need, I think that's going to be such a dynamic piece of this offense. And I would probably say, and this is going to be the biggest battle, I think going into this going into this season is who's going to be that wide receiver three because until OBJ got there the offense in total and I and I get that Cam Akers was out for a large part of the season but um they needed OBJ They needed a true number two to go along with Cooper Cup. They needed another third wide receiver. And I just think that we know who our top two guys are. But that third piece, however that third piece gets mixed in,

it's got to be huge. They have to be not only a possession receiver, but they have to be a playmaker to make to to take the pressure off of just do you not think that that's like kj osborne's job to lose or do you think that like albert wilson who they just signed or amir smith-marcet or bc johnson like could be in that mix as well to play a lot i i and they might and they might play four at times too yeah i don't think personally i think we love what kj brings i love the ascension that he had from year one to year two i just think you got it you got to push the envelope a little bit more you know i think that

um you know i would like to see a little bit more speed from that, that, that spot. I think KJ has gotten a lot better with his short area. I think he can make a guy miss. And I think that he can create separation, but I'd like to see a little bit more straight line speed from that spot. Um, so, you know, who, who that is. I don't know. That's why I think it's going to be, you know that Smith-Marset has more straight-line speed,

but can he do enough to create that separation in a short area? Because you are going to have to be a possession receiver. Which of those guys can bring the whole total package? Yeah, and so some of those secondary, tertiary pieces on offense are going to be interesting to me. Will they get Kenne more involved outside of just the kick return game? Like a couple of the late round rookies, they drafted Ty Chandler, Jalen Naylor, really speedy guys.

Are they going to have any role this year? But yeah, Hey, we could, we could go on and do this for a long time, but Ben, I appreciate you coming on the show. Everyone go follow Ben. If you're not already, you should be at Nacho Lieber on Twitter. Before we wrap up here, let people know kind of what you got going on this summer and headed into this football season. Yeah, well, thank you.

Yeah, I mean, quite a big change for me personally. Just took the job, as you mentioned at the start of the show, that I'll be the new permanent co-host for twin cities live. And, and, uh, it's a, it's a big challenge for me. It's a step out of my comfort zone. You know, it's a twin cities live for everybody that doesn't know is a, it's a lifestyle show on KSTP channel five here in Minneapolis. Uh, it's a live every day from three to four 30. Um, and look, I, I don't know if I'm a lifestyle TV type of guy. We're going to find, we're going to find out, you know, but, um, I'm super excited. I'm starting that, uh, very shortly. It'll be an everyday gig. Uh, nothing will change from a Vikings coverage perspective. Nothing changes from my, my roles at KFA. And, um, so I'll still cover as much as I

can and even more with the Vikings. And I don't know if it's going to change much with college football. So it's going to be a really busy fall for me with this new job, but I'm super excited for the opportunity. So, you know, from a TV standpoint, check out Twin Cities Live, you know, every day at 3 to 4.30. And, uh, other than that, KFN radio, I heart. Yeah, man. And, uh, yeah, busy guy, but, uh, we should try to do this again sometime during the season or down the line. I really, uh, really appreciate you coming on. Yeah, no problem. Always a pleasure. Good to see you. Well,