Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Trench Warfare's Brandon Thorn explains why Christian Darrisaw can play right away

Episode Date: May 8, 2021

The master of the offensive line breakdown Brandon Thorn, who runs Trench Warfare and worked for Bleacher Report during draft season, talks in depth about how the first round played out with offensive linemen, why he believes Christian Darrisaw can provide the Vikings with quality offensive line play right away and his concerns about Darrisaw. Plus he discusses Wyatt Davis and what makes him a quality pass blocker and what the Vikings will be facing in the division with Penei Sewell and Teven Jenkins. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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with Drizzly or Instacart, Coors Brewing Company, Golden, Colorado, and as always, celebrate! Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider presented by Scout Logistics. Matthew Collar here as always, and we welcome in from Trench Warfare, once upon a time just known on our shows as the O-Line Guy, but now has built a very successful sub-stack of which I am a subscriber. Brandon Thorne, what is up, Brandon? Not too much, man. Excited to be joining you yet again and and just a lot of exciting stuff to talk about. Well your work was a must follow in draft season remains a must follow for anyone interested in offensive line play you interviewed some of the offensive line prospects you wrote

about them you wrote scouting reports about them and I think a lot of hard work was absolutely worth it for people like myself who were doing tons of draft prep on offensive linemen so we've got to start with a dream scenario for someone like Brandon Thorne with lots of offensive linemen being taken in the first round before we get into Christian Derrissaw just tell me what you thought of the way the offensive lineman came off the board in the first I mean nothing, nothing too surprising, really. I was kind of surprised Tevin Jenkins didn't go in the first, but then a week or so before the draft, some stuff started coming out about some off-field stuff.

So I guess maybe his slide had something to do with that. But yeah, I mean, other than that one, nothing too surprising, really, man. I mean, as expected, I think more of the surprises came in rounds two and three to me. But, yeah, round one was kind of par for the course of what I was expecting, I think. Well, it sounds like the Vikings had some interest in trading up for Rashawn Slater. Now, I think they did the right thing by trading back if they wanted to take an offensive lineman instead of a quarterback for trading back and getting Christian Derrissaw instead. How big was the gap in your mind between the top two, Penny Soule and Rashawn Slater,

and kind of the others and someone like Christian Derrissaw? Well, yeah, Rashawn Slater was my third tackle. So I had Tevin Jenkins as the second best tackle in the draft. But, yeah, I had Derrissaw as the fourth best. And, you know, I had a first-round grade on him, though. But I think he went where I, you know, basically exactly where I thought he had his best value was like in the, you know, top 25, basically.

So, yeah, I mean, you know, it was Sewell, Jenkins, Slater, Derrissaw. Sewell was kind of in his own tier, and then Slater, Jenkins, and Derrissaw were all pretty close. But, yeah, I saw Derrissaw as that fourth guy. But, you know, in terms of sheer physical traits and talent, he's on par with many of them. Well, that's what I liked about Christian Derrissaw as a prospect is, like, when we talked about Brian O'Neill back a couple of years ago when they took him, it was, hey, you know, this guy's going to have to put on a lot of weight. And he's going to have to get a lot bigger. And he's going to have to have a real nasty side if he's going to succeed and ultimately he did all those things but there were a lot of question marks and what ifs just even starting with his body with Christian Derrissaw this is a mammoth

human being uh Brandon I know that you're you're used to watching uh huge guys and being around huge offensive linemen but I feel like um having seen Christian Derrissaw in person, one of the bigger guys that they've brought into the offensive line room. So kind of give me the scouting report here, man. I mean, how much does Derrissaw have to improve, and what does he do best that made him a first-round pick? Yeah, so, I mean, you said it initially there with the size, just the physical dimensions, his frame, his build, and just physically, the way he appears on film, to me, film and just their physicality as well, their very physical players.

Derrissaw, I think his play strength is above average for sure. I mean, he's able to generate really easy power. I would qualify his power as probably very good. He's really able to kind of engulf defenders at the point of attack and control them with relative ease. And I think that's going to translate well. So all that is reminiscent of Deion Dawkins, and that's kind of what I think you're getting.

The thing is, I think he has a little bit more upside than Dawkins because he's more of a fluid mover than Dawkins. He's a little bit more athletic, a little bit more natural on the move to the second and third levels. And he came from a heavy zone scheme at Virginia Tech, so the fit certainly is there with Minnesota because he's going to be asked to do the same things he did in college. So that's always comforting.

But, yeah, I mean, there's not a whole lot to ding him on in terms of my checklist that I go through when I watch guys. The biggest thing that I would question is his focus and concentration. I think that was pretty up and down. For a guy as talented as he is, he played down to competition quite often, and that was a concern for me, and that was the only reason really why I had him as the fourth-ranked tackle was kind of that late first-round grade because, you know, it's just with offensive linemen, I mean,

it's not going to get any easier in the pro game to fix that. But, you know, then again, there's a lot of different ways to look at it, right? I mean, you can look at it like, okay, when he gets to the NFL, all competition is going to be high, you know, compared to what he saw in college. So maybe, you know, that just goes away and it's a non-issue and we forget about it like it never happens. You know, I think that's certainly viable.

But then again, you know, it's like maybe when he gets to the NFL and he's not facing an all-pro or pro-bowl type guy, is he going to get kind of lax and lazy? I don't know. So it's just kind of a question mark for me that remains to be seen if he can get corrected. But I want to be careful not to question his competitive toughness or anything like that because I certainly think he has that. He's played hurt numerous times in his career.

He had a core muscle injury this year. Freshman, he had a bum ankle that he hurt in the second game of the season, played the whole year, then had off-season surgery that caused him to miss the spring, heading into his sophomore year. He's a lightly recruited dude who was overlooked coming out of high school, so he has that chip on his shoulder kind of mentality. So there's a lot to like about him, and I certainly did like him. It's just, you know, when you rack and stack the prospects next to each other,

I came out the way I did, but still, I think the upside is there, and the floor is there as well for him to be a good pro right away and a chance to be really, really good, man, and I love the fit. Well, I think what you're saying is that he won't be good against the lions that's just the lol lions joke but i mean in all seriousness though this is the thing this is the thing about christian derisaw this year though brandon and what i wanted to ask you about is the competition is going to be something i mean when you look at the vikings they're playing the nfc west and the afc. So let's think about that real quick. I mean, you've got Chandler Jones and Cam Hayward and Miles Garrett

and all these guys. Yeah, right, right. I mean, all these guys that you're going to have to face. And I think he's going to really get quite the welcome to the NFL. So what do you think is when you watch all these offensive linemen and you watch them make this transition, like what's the thing that works for guys and what's the thing that gets them sometimes about making that transition from college to the NFL? I think it's technique and consistency and efficiency.

Just being consistent with your technique and fundamentals. I think that's the biggest thing. Guys who aren't very consistent with their feet or their hands, just one little, you know, slip up in either one of those areas, especially your feet. You know, I mean, it's just a matter of learning the patterns, the movement patterns, the angles, the timing, all that different type of stuff based on the alignment that you're seeing, based on the alignment that you're seeing, based on the opponent that you're seeing.

It changes for each of those. So obviously if you think about all the different alignments, all the different opponents, all the different looks, your pass set is going to have to adjust accordingly. That takes time and repetition to correct and to, you know, just navigate. So I think that's the biggest thing is, you know, because most of these guys that are getting drafted, especially in the first round, you know, they all have the traits that you really want.

I mean, even though this year, you know, it's kind of funny because Sewell and Slater, you know, arm length they didn't have, but in terms of athletic ability and power and movement skill, they had all that. So, you know, generally when you get, you know, a high-round pick, you know, they're going to have the physical stuff. It's a matter of the mental stuff and how well you're able to make adaptations to your game and your technique and fundamentals and timing.

I think those are the biggest things. And it's really nuanced, and it takes time, really. I mean, you know, but I think Derrissaw has plenty of talent. I mean, that's not a question. I think that's obvious when you watch him on film. You know, I watched four or five games with him and he faced some pretty good competition, you know, Miami, he saw Quincy Roche, who I think he went fifth or sixth round. Actually he's actually fairly skilled rusher,

just doesn't have a lot of physical traits there. Duke has a couple guys uh as well um one guy that's in the nfl now got drafted chris rumpf i don't think he faced him very often but so he's facing pretty good guys over his career i know he faced brian burns as a freshman i believe i couldn't get a hold of that tape unfortunately but i know he played b Burns then. So he's seen some guys that are pretty decent to superstar NFL players occasionally. I don't see high competition being that scary of a thing at all for him in particular because I think he can match them in terms of traits and just the athletic ability, the size, the movement skills, and the power.

I think he has all that. It's just going to be that consistency, and that's something with him that, like I mentioned with the focus and concentration, he's really going to have to dial it in and take it to a level that he never really took it to as a college player, as a pro, to really maximize his potential, which I think is substantial. Well, the first step to all of that is awareness, as a pro to really maximize his potential, which I think is substantial. Well, the first step to all of that is awareness, recognizing the problem.

And I did have a chance to ask Derrissaw the other day about making that transition, and he said there are a lot of things that are way more complicated and way different, and the competition level, too. He said he was looking forward to facing Khalil Mack, I wanted to say are you sure you are because I've watched him quite a few times just rip up Vikings uh tackles who have been pretty good but but the fact that he's aware that some of these things need to improve I think is important and um that he uh also Rick Spielman said he impressed the Vikings in that way uh as well so there is that mental part of it. Now let's talk about Wyatt Davis. What do you know about Wyatt Davis?

I gave this pick an A-plus when the Vikings took him because he was ranked highly by a lot of people in terms of the pure guards in this draft. But what do you see when you look at him and how he might fit in right away? Yeah, I like Wyatt Davis. I had a second-round grade on him. I was fortunately able to grade every player that got drafted on the offensive line, except one, actually, Colvin Landon from Wisconsin. He was the one guy I missed. But when I ranked all the guards, he was on the list in front of me,

but he was pretty high. I mean, I had him second round. So, you know, I think it was, what what Landon Dickerson I had as a guard center, Elijah Veritucker, and I had Creed Humphrey as a guard center as well. But I think like after those three, he was the next guy. So I really liked him. But the thing with him is you have to watch him in 2019 as well as 2020 because 2020 he dealt with a pretty significant knee injury.

He was playing injured most of the year. And he just looked like a different player 2019 he was different he was better his movement was more fluid I think that's the biggest change that I think you'll see if you watch his 2019 tape and contrast it with 2020 so just more of a fluid mover. But, I mean, the movement skills there, even in 2019, were, I think, solid. That's not really what is so appealing about him to me. I think it's more of the demeanor that he plays with and the ability to impose his will as often as he did in the Big Ten, which has really good competition, was very impressive. So he's going to bring, I think, a tone-setting type of presence to the line,

which any offensive line can benefit from that. In terms of skill set and stuff, I think his anchoring ability is really good, and his use of hands are good as well, both above average, in my opinion. So I think that's the know the biggest thing the biggest difference that you'll notice and fans will notice is his ability to anchor uh is just really good man and especially just coming out you know uh you know as a young guy i mean you know that ability to land your hands inside the guy's frame the pass rusher's frame and absorb the bull rush and create a firm pocket, that's huge.

And that was enough for me to give him the grade that I did, really. You know, and I think he's, you know, it's interesting. I mean, I thought he was maybe a little bit better of a fit in the gap type of scheme than a zone scheme, even though at Ohio State they run heavy inside zone and they run some outside zone as well. So he's done a ton of inside zone stuff so I really like him you know to create vertical displacement in the run game and like I said I think he uses his hands well and his anchoring ability is impressive. So give me your opinion on this Mike Zimmer made it a directive to the scouting staff that they wanted bigger human beings at guard and it was something

that we probably brought up that with Kirk Cousins lack of mobility to go with these smaller guards and a smaller center probably wasn't the best fit for them and once again recognizing the problem is the first step and so they get a guy who might not be a perfect fit in the run game, but I think that's okay. I mean, I know the Vikings love to run, but if you're losing a tiny bit in the run blocking to gain a lot in the pass protection, I think that's exactly what they needed, Brandon. Yeah. I mean, you know, if you're going to have a smaller undersized center like Bradbury, it's nice to put a guy like Wyatt Davis next to him. You know, it's really that simple, especially in pass protection. I mean, anytime he's uncovered and Bradbury has a guy that he may not be able to handle himself,

Davis is going to provide a very strong physical presence in helping him. That was something I posted a few clips of him on my Twitter as well. That's kind of a reoccurring theme in his films. If he's uncovered in pass protection, he's going to really, you know, try to crush whoever he can and have the power to actually make an impact doing it. So I think he's going to be a pretty good help there for Bradbury in those uncovered situations. And then when he is covered dealing with somebody, he's going to be able to anchor.

And that's huge man i mean anchoring as a guard is not something you see a lot of young guys do that well in college um but i thought that was something that he did particularly well and especially on play action man when you have to sell run and get your hands on a guy quickly and then anchor um you know that's huge so i think that was probably, if I had to guess, one of, if not like the biggest draws that maybe Minnesota saw in him is that ability. Folks, the football offseason is off and rolling and SodaStick has you covered with Minnesota sports themed gear. Some of my favorite football designs that you have to check out include the Chuck Foreman

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just a short drive from anywhere in the Twin Cities Metro, and at birdiegolf.com, or you can call 651-998-2200 today. I'll see you there. What's funny about this conversation is how I could just feel Vikings fans like leaning into their phone or however they're listening to this be like, he can anchor? He can stop someone in the pass protection? Tell me more. Tell me more.

Tell me more. Like, it's been so funny that you and I have talked about these things for probably four or five years, and we're usually sitting here talking about, well, they drafted this guy who's a good zone blocker and wouldn't expect him to be above average at pass protection and like this about his game, but not that, and they're pretty weak here, and they're well below average here. And, you know, it finally seems like, and I want to get to Ezra Cleveland in a second, Brandon, but it just finally seems like they have the foundation here to build a very, very good offensive line by investing all these draft picks in it.

I think so, man. I mean, I don't know how that's going to work with who's going to play what side in terms of guard. You know, I saw some people on Twitter say, well, as for Cleveland, they might just stay a left guard or play there. That's going to be interesting to me. I mean, Wyatt Davis played right guard at Ohio State, so more, I guess, a natural fit there. I like the idea of putting Derrissaw kind of next to – well, I don't know. I mean, see, that's something, if you want to go that route, we could talk about it because the combination there,

I can make the case for basically any combination. So I don't want to get too far in the weeds there, but yeah, I mean, either way, you know, putting Wyatt Davis, say if he did play left guard, it's a dramatic upgrade over what was there last year. And that was the biggest hole, really. And I think there's a really good chance that Arasaw is going to be at least as good as Riley Reif next year and obviously have the upside to be better, if not next year, in the years to come.

So as long as O'Neal keeps progressing, I mean, yeah, man, this is the most promising group that I can remember uh since we started talking well let's get in the weeds a little bit on uh Ezra Cleveland because last year we questioned it uh Jeremiah Searles you know he does the show he um talks a lot about moving offensive linemen around and he doesn't really love that of hey let's you know take this tackle and move them all the way to the other side. And there were certainly some bumps in the road for last year for Ezra Cleveland.

I would guess that he goes to left guard and then Wyatt Davis just stays at right guard so they don't have to ask another rookie to move around. And, you know, left side is where Ezra Cleveland had played before, but it looks like now this guy is locked into guard for a long time. Do we like that? I mean, is that a good draft pick for them if they spent a second on him? And I don't mean this to be a leading question. I just, you know, is it a good draft pick to spend a second on him last year if he was

only ever going to be a guard? I mean, I think just when you phrase it that way, I think it certainly can be, you know what guards can do for an offensive line for you know the seven years i've been doing this um if you have a above average guard um that's huge especially in today's nfl where as you know we've discussed at length uh the quality of competition on the interior defensive line is significant so if you can have a guy who can kind of match that, I think it's closer to being as valuable as a tackle than people think, depending on the offense as well, what kind of situations that they're in. But, yeah, I mean, Ezra Cleveland, yeah, I mean, I didn't watch him a ton coming out.

And I watched him a little bit last year. So I can't go too deep into his individual game like i can these other guys uh but from what i've seen i would honestly probably like to see him and tackle more um but you know i i don't think that it's um you know out of the question that he can turn into a solid guard um i don't necessarily see, you know, very good or above for him in the future necessarily. I mean, I just wouldn't peg him as that kind of guy. But I think he could be a functional starter who may be the weak link of the unit. If this unit sticks together for the next two, three years,

I think that he probably has the lowest ceiling um but you know that's not to say he can't be serviceable um because obviously he's athletic he's quick and he could do some good things uh in the screen game and in like outside zone you know reaching guys and you know that's where he wins so I think that he has kind of a niche skill set there where he can really add value to the team. Yeah, and that's why I didn't want to make it a leading question. I'm not saying that drafting a guard there would have been bad. It's only that you seemed at the time to draft him to be your left tackle

and then never tried him at left tackle. That was always odd to me. And so as much as I appreciate what they've done here with Christian Derrissaw to build up this offensive line whether it's Kirk Cousins or someone else at quarterback they will benefit from having this offensive line grow together in the future it's just that never trying him at left tackle is is very curious to me based on the reports on him coming out of the draft. So let me ask you just one more thing before we wrap up, because you're a busy man and I appreciate all of your time and all of your extremely hard work leading up to the draft,

which, like I said, Trench Warfare, I am a subscriber. I really love your stuff, Brandon, as you know. So just tell me, though, Penesul is the division now, and so is Tevin Jenkins. Those are your top two. How much are those guys going to impact the division and how much the Vikings can pressure the quarterback going forward? Yeah, I mean, I think both of them are better run blockers probably than pass protectors, although I really like both of them just all around.

But I think really their kind of trump card ability as players is run blockers. So that's, you know, that's first off. But, yeah, I mean, just their presence, I think, is going to be huge, man. I mean, Fanez Soul, I think he's special, man. I mean, you know, he needs, you know, some fine tuning. He's very inexperiencedienced and he's only 20 um so there's going to be you know I think probably some rough patches uh you know initially you know against really high level competition and pass protection in particular but I think he has potential to be like the best run blocking tackle in the NFL

you know I see him on par with like a Trent Williams type of guy, you know, as a run blocker. Now, if his pass protection can get to matching his, that's, you know, a little bit of a different question. I don't necessarily see that for him. I see more of like an above average pass protector. But, you know, that's why I compared him to Lael Collins, especially 2019

version of lael collins when he i thought was maybe the best run blocking right tackle in football and above average pass protector um i think that's kind of what you would get with sewell um but yeah so he's just i think he's pretty special man i think the ceiling for him is is as high as in the last few years of the draft that I've been watching guys, and I didn't watch any class as much as I did this one, but I think his ceiling is as high as anybody. So, yeah, I really like him. And then Tevin Jenkins, to me, I thought his power and his play strength

were pretty much a elite for a prospect. So that's why I just kind of hitched my wagon to him so early because I just saw, okay, this guy is going to be able, this will translate to me. It's his ability to latch onto a guy and just put the defender in a cage and control the rep. And he's good with his hands as well so good with your hands and you have that elite level power you know that to me even if you need some work with your footwork and pass protection and other things I think over time all his issues are correctable you know what I mean like he all of the stuff that I saw that gave him trouble was correctable his length will get him into maybe a little bit of trouble.

I didn't see a whole lot of it on tape, but when you have to pump up your competition, I think that we could see some of that maybe against like Chandler Jones type guy with like 34 plus 35 inch arms. Those kind of guys are really good with their hands. So I didn't give him, you know, an all ceiling grade type type of grade like I gave Sewell but I think he's going to be a good pro right away with his ceiling to get to very good I compared him to Judrick Wills I think he's similar to him maybe not quite as athletic as Wills but similar type of physical commanding type of grip strength and presence. And I think he fits well in Chicago. I just heard today he might play left tackle, which is interesting.

I liked him more at right, but he has experience playing left. So, yeah, that's going to be interesting to see how that transition goes for him. But, yeah, I mean, I, you know, but I love Slater as well. So I just like Jenkins a tad more. But, yeah, those two are going to be, I mean, it's crazy that you guys got three of my four top tackles in the same division. It's pretty cool.

Well, I was just going to say that it was sort of an emotional roller coaster for Vikings fans because they were pleased with Derrissaw, but their team passed up on a quarterback. And then in the division, Justin Fields ends up here and Tevin Jenkins for a good Chicago haul at the beginning. And then, you know, Penny Sewell ends up dropping to Detroit. So they can't be thrilled about that. So,

and then the Rogers report. So it was all over the place, but that's, uh, that is why we love the draft as much as we do. So trench warfare.substack.com. Also, if you don't already follow Brandon on Twitter,

then you are doing it wrong at Brandon Thorne, NFL Brandon, man, it's always great to catch up with you. Love your detail. Love your work. And we'll do it again soon when you've got some Viking, maybe when you've got offensive line preseason tape this year.

Right? Am I right? Let's go. I mean, I'm ready. Yeah, man, I'll be watching. So I'll be there. I'll be ready, man, whenever you want to have me on. All right.

Sounds great. And thanks again for your time, man'll be ready, man, whenever you want to have me on. All right. Sounds great. And thanks again for your time, man. All right, man. Anytime. Hey, everyone. I want to tell you about our friends at Scout Logistics. And I really do mean it when I say friends. They are fans of Purple Insider over at Scout Logistics.

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