Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Trench Warfare's Brandon Thorn rebuilds the Vikings' defensive line

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Matthew Coller talks with founder of Trench Warfare Brandon Thorn about whether the Vikings should bring back Danielle Hunter and how they can fill out the rest of the defensive line. Plus what to do about left guard and whether the other OL positions need to be addressed. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and returning to the show, once known as the O-Line guy for the show. Now, Trench Warfare is where you can find him on Substack. He's doing one of the coolest projects out there as far as content creation in the football world. Analyzing offensive and defensive linemen. And even, you know, I follow Micah Parsons on Twitter, Brandon, I saw him tweet out a bunch of stats to prove that whatever case he was making about defensive player of the year. And I see Brandon Thorne's stats on there for pass rushers. And I was like, Hey, look at that. That's our guy. So what's up, man? How's it going?

Oh, it's going, it's going well, man. Yeah man. Yeah, that was cool to see from Micah Parsons. And, yeah, just, you know, I've always said, like, if I can get players and coaches, you know, especially to appreciate what I do, then, you know, I feel like I'm doing something right. And, you know, seeing that and from other people, like, over the years, you know, it's just it means a lot. And it just it keeps me going. You know, it's motivating. So. Absolutely. So you're doing the trench warfare thing. You're doing bleacher report scouting again. And now we're going to take a little bit of a deviation from the main topic here with the Minnesota Vikings, which you can imagine

is at the quarterback position, but they've got a defensive line to rebuild and they've got a left guard position open. And I would also say that center and right guard are not exactly making all pros from year to year. So we're going to kind of break it all down. And here's how I decided to do it. I came up with some ideas and I want you to tell me if you think that they're good or they're bad. And some of them connect to what's going to happen at the quarterback position. So let's start out, just say that Kirk Cousins comes back and they still have to find ways to rebuild pretty much an entire defensive line outside of Harrison Phillips. Is it a good idea? Or I guess my idea would have to start with finding a way to bring back Daniel Hunter, because if you are bringing back her cousins,

that means you're all in. It means you don't have some time to develop a pass rusher over three years. And when I look at the potential options, I see a lot of guys who I think are getting franchise tag, like Josh Allen out there on the market. And I also, you know,

look at the familiarity, how Daniil Hunter performed with Brian Flores and think it might be worth it under those circumstances to ruin your future salary cap to pay Daniil what he's worth. In your mind, how much is Daniil worth? Is it a good idea to bring him back? Age is going to be a factor here and he is coming off of one of his top seasons but this has also been one of the most consistent pass rushers in the NFL now for years yeah under that circumstance if Kirk Cousins comes back then I think bringing Daniel Hunter back makes a lot of sense because you are kind of in that that win now mode and Daniel

Hunter is one of the you know five six seven best edge rushers in the league. And yeah, so I would be all for that. I know it'd be expensive. He's worth a lot of money. Absolutely. So there's a price to pay for that. But if your team is in that kind of mode, I think it makes a lot of sense. And especially, you know, considering the state of the depth chart um you know with all the free agents that you do have uh if you do bring him back at least then you could kind of fill the

gaps you know a lot easier elsewhere especially in the scheme that you guys run that is you know the most blitz heavy scheme in the league so um it's not like the defensive line is the engine uh so if you do have one of those guys you know like daniel hunter in place then it can be a lot easier to fill everything else out so here's my question about daniel hunter is why is he not viewed by a lot of people in the upper echelon in the same conversation as a bosa as a parsons as a miles gar, because by sack production, he is, but there's more to it than that. Obviously by pressure production, he still has extremely good numbers over his career, but I wonder if it's that he's a little unorthodox in the way that he goes about it.

If he doesn't have the same quick twitchiness. So you don't see the highlight reel sacks as often where with miles garrett you're going to share that on twitter when you see him just lightning blow by a guy like alan iverson on the dribble or something a lot of his sacks are more just overpowering overpowering overpowering and then just collapses on the quarterback but you mentioned him in your mind as being one of the truly elite guys what what do you think separates him for why maybe the Vikings in the past have not paid him the top dollar or what would maybe keep him from being considered in that level? Yeah, it's a good question.

I mean, I think in terms of just athletic ability and blowing past some guys as well, he has that as well. That's the thing. He's not just a pure power guy. He is very unorthodox in how he goes about it, kind of similar to Chandler Jones and the way he was when he was in his prime. You know, they're kind of similar in that regard. But, yeah, he has as good of stuff as a pass rusher as anybody. I would say that probably one of the reasons why his name maybe isn't considered in that tier one, you know,

kind of grouping is because maybe because of the, was it the, the 2021 seasons where he played a handful of games in two years. And I think that caused people to kind of forget about him and maybe write him off a little prematurely. You know, since then, he's had, you know, 27, 28 sacks or whatever the last couple of years. So, you know, I think people can kind of get over that now, you know, and maybe they haven't yet. They haven't caught up. But I think that's probably it, you know, because he had a serious injury with his neck and people were questioning if he would ever be the same. And, you know, he missed a ton of time. And I think it was just one of those things out of sight, out of mind, you know. And then also the position is so incredibly deep.

You know, I've been saying this for, I think, like close to a decade now. Defensive line is just the deepest position in the game and head rusher there's just so many great players or very good players that it's very easy to get kind of lost in the shuffle so i think the combination of those things is probably why yeah and i also think that when you are consistently getting and now last year he did push this a little bit higher but he was consistently getting from 10 to 14 sacks which is not having that one year where everyone talks about you as defensive mvp you're just you're constantly ranking seventh in the league in sacks which is amazing but you don't have that one wild

year where everyone says oh well he's the best he's number one and i think that that's hurt him as well but consider how much of a weight he's had to carry, even, you know, especially last year since the Everson Griffin days. The second half of last season, Z'Darrius Smith struggled quite a bit with an injury. And then this whole last year, you're talking about mostly DJ Wanham on the other side, which is just all do it all yourself, Daniil Hunter, and get all the attention, all the chips and all those things. So it's not hard to sell anybody on Daniil Hunter's talent. The one question I would have, though, in your experience, evaluating these guys, looking into the numbers, watching all their tape, how does age factor into this? Because I was looking up even Jared Allen, who is a Hall of Fame caliber player and will probably someday be there and by the age of 31 32 i think it was maybe 30 that he had the 22 sacks and then it fell off after that pretty pretty quickly into

his 30s how does that translate because julius peppers is the one everyone will look at and be like hey this guy lasted forever and was still effective but i do think that there's quite a few maybe mario william Williams was like this, especially guys who came into the league at 20 years old, where there could be some age curve. But I don't know how to factor that with a guy who's built like Adonis, you know? Right, right.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's something that I haven't, you know, researched too deeply, but just thinking about it, you know, pass rusher, especially edge rusher, so much of it is based on athletic ability and explosiveness, getting off the ball, yourates and goes away as you age. Now finding that sweet spot and when that's going to happen is obviously very difficult, kind of a case by case basis. You know, with Daniel Hunter, he has some injury history as well to kind of factor in, you know, with the neck. So that's something to consider. You know, I think, you know, it also, it ultimately comes down to like how you're going to compensate him, you know, in the length of his contract to kind of protect you from that,

you know, in an ideal world, you pay him a ton of money, but you do it, you know, with a structure where you can get out after two or three years, I think that would probably be ideal. And then in that case, I would be all for paying, you know, top dollar for him. Because then at least you have all for paying, you know, top dollar for him. Um, because then at least you have that potential out, you know, if something does go awry, if he gets hurt or whatever, if there is a decline, but, you know, based on his most recent season, most recent two seasons, um, there's no sign of decline. So I would feel pretty good about kind of a, like a mid tier in term of length contract for him

you know at top dollar so in the same scenario part of my plan and this is you're bringing back Kirk so you're just throwing money at stuff I was trying to find in free agency a defensive tackle that could be like a difference maker in terms of the pass rush and i struggled i struggled to find where you would have to pay kirk and deniel 25 20 to 25 million and then you're also looking for like you're not getting chris jones in this scenario and he probably ends up returning on whatever contract to kansas city anyway and the other thing is, Brandon, that people don't let defensive tackles who pressure the quarterback get to free agency. If you have one, you hold onto him tightly and never let him go. So I went and found a potentially affordable, very fat man who could help stuff the

run. And at least what you would have is that run stuffing duo in the middle, which I think for a Brian Flores system can be pretty important because you've usually got a lot of smaller somebody who's going to give you like a thousand snaps. So he's kind of like a Harrison Phillips, but huskier, but bigger, thicker. I think he's a little better against the run, even than Harrison Phillips. How do you like that as a plan to try to like, okay, you don't have the money to spend on a pass rusher inside, but at least to fit that into what Brian Flores is doing. I love that. I think it makes total sense. Grover Stewart's one of the best two down defensive tackles in the NFL. Not going to give you a whole lot as a pass rusher, but on first, second down, I mean, he's as good as it gets in terms of occupying space, not giving ground,

and also getting some penetration as well. He reads things very quickly. He's very smart. He could diagnose blocking concepts and also getting some penetration as well. He reads things very quickly. He's very smart. He could diagnose blocking concepts and actually get some penetration and, you know, get into the backfield. Even if he's not going to accumulate a lot of tackles for loss, he is going to disrupt the path of runners quite a bit and kind of funnel

them elsewhere, you know, prematurely, you know, before they want to cut things like that. He's just, he has a disruptive element to his game. He's not just a guy who's just going to take up pure space like a, you know,

like a Ted Washington or something, you know, throwback guy. He has some of that capability to him, but there is a little bit more as well. So, like, if you're going to get a two-down type of guy, like, he really is as good as he gets. And in this game, like you said, who plays, you know, plays a little bit more light boxes. You know, you need those force multipliers up front who can take on multiple guys. So, yeah, I mean, that would make a lot of sense to me. There are a couple depth kind of rotational pass rush guys in free agency just looking at the list that i think could be interesting but um you know i keep going back to the scheme and how the defensive

line really isn't kind of the driving force of pressure and sacks for this defensive scheme so you don't have to spend a lot of money on that position which is nice so yeah if but if you could get grover stewart and retained a neil hunter man i mean wow yeah that would be that would be awesome right and part of the plan is just saying we don't care about the salary cap like we're gonna you know structure all these for years down the road and the next coaching staff can deal with it uh but uh you know you're right about the rotational guys and there's always kind of those players bouncing around uh you could take a shot at maybe hoping that javon kinlaw comes into something when he's first yeah marise hearst keeps having these stops and starts in his career where it looks like there's something there and

then he gets injured that's maybe someone to stay away from after uh the marcus davenport debacle but you know there are guys to look at that you could start to mix in. They've really lacked that type of player in previous years. So, OK, we agree on that. And in a different plan, we'll talk about some of the other top tier defensive tackles when we have all the cap space for moving on from Cousins. But this plan would have to go along with our other side of the defense being probably someone they draft. Now, I like mixing this with a versatile player. So I also threw in the name Andrew Van Ginkle from Miami as a guy that maybe Flores would have familiarity with, moves around, rushes, does a lot of different things.

I think they could use a player like him. But I think you still have to draft an edge rusher at number 11 or an interior pass rusher if you're bringing back Kirk Cousins like that's still the position even even though we've spent a lot of money so far there's still more needs here so when you look at this draft there's going to be quarterbacks receivers linemen who are going in the top seems to me that if you're a team that needs a defensive lineman you might actually be in a good spot you might be able to get the best or second best guy where the Vikings are drafting if that's their approach because everybody's taking these offensive players. So what is your kind of feeling at

this moment about the class of defensive linemen that could be available? Yeah, I mean, looking at the edge class, I think it's a solid to good class. You know, for sure, there's four, five guys that, you know, I've seen not studying the position like I am offensive line this year for Bleacher Report, but seeing, you know, at least a little bit of these guys. To me, there's really like five guys that I think are, you know, worth that kind of late first, early second round kind of grade. You know, so that's perfect for kind of where Minnesota is and maybe what they want to spend, you know, or allocate towards that position. So there's definitely guys in this draft. One guy that's probably going to be available late first, maybe second round, is Washington edge rusher Braylon Trice, who's a guy, he's a power rusher, who I really like.

He's about 6'4", 275. He could probably be what the team wanted Marcus Davenport to be, I think, in a lot of respects. He's a guy who's given almost all the offensive linemen that I've studied in the draft problems this year. He has a really good inside move, really good power, and he's just a relentless kind of presence on the field. So, you know, I could see him being undervalued because he probably won't test out of the world, you know, and things like that. But he really is a good football player. And I think he could just be a quality number two, you know, opposite to Neil Hunter. And

you probably don't have to spend a whole lot in the draft to get him. So that's one guy that it's kind of been a personal favorite of mine. And then there's, you know, guys above him that are like more explosive, twitchy kind of guys as well. So you do have some, some quality guys, you know, in this edge class i think yeah and i think i mean if this was their plan to build up the defensive line you would go into the season feeling pretty good about it the trouble as has been the case for a while would be the depth and that's just been an issue for them and that's what happens when you have kirk on the expensive contract and that you haven been an issue for them and that's what happens when you have kirk on the

expensive contract and that you haven't drafted and developed players recently we kind of went through this with michael pierce and delvin tomlinson where it was like hey this would be great but then michael pierce wasn't healthy that year and then they just didn't have any other answers now let me go to a scenario where they do not bring back her cousins. And in this case, I'm looking for both to spend my money that I don't have to use, but also more of a little bit of a longer term type of approach than just, hey, bring in 30 year old guys who have been around forever. I'm looking a little bit younger people to be on the team for maybe four or five seasons. And this is where I was looking at.

And I know this guy is going to sign with somebody for a lot of money and so i always get anytime you bring a free agent they will sign here i know maybe not but uh justin matabike if that's the correct pronunciation i've heard four different pronunciations matabike uh is projected by pff to make about 23 million dollars a year which makes a lot of sense to me because he's an excellent player and there's another guy that i think has a little bit of like under the radar type potential in bryce huff from the new york jets because who was watching new york jets football this year hopefully no one is it was terrible um but uh i kind of like the

idea of huff being like a higher upside guy if he gets more of a snap count. And Matabuike is a guy who established himself this year as a top-notch player. What do we think about that plan? I mean, yeah, I would love that. I like both those guys a lot. You know, Matabuike obviously had a breakout year and was the best defensive lineman on that team, the best defense in the league, arguably. So, you know, just kind of bringing a guy from that system, that culture over,

you know, there's all that kind of hidden value as well. And then, yeah, just his production last year speaks for itself. He's a great power rusher, plays with really good natural leverage. He can get underneath guys and drive guys back in a way that not a lot of guys can replicate. So you have a true pocket collapsing sort of presence on the inside. And then, you know, Bryce Huff, I think ideally you would keep him in a situation where if you did get Bryce Huff still draft an Edrusher somewhere in the first few rounds, that way you can still kind of keep Huff on somewhat of a pitch count,

even if it is increased, you know, based on what he was, because he is, you know, a little bit of a smaller guy and not really known for what he does against the run. Not that that's a big issue. He's a really productive pass rusher, super twitchy and explosive. I really like him. He's a guy who some of the metrics I do like true sack rate, true pressure rate, um, you know, over the last couple of years has really liked as well. I mean, you can, a lot of high quality wins one-on-one wins, you know, as a pass rusher. So he's a guy I really like who's definitely undervalued. Um, yeah. So I think ideally though, you kind of keep him in that type of situation, but yeah, that would be be great uh i think christian wilkins is a free agent as well you know that that would be you know another guy you know kind of similar to matabuike but more of kind of a run defender you know than than a

pass rusher so yeah who knows how many of these guys are going to hit free agency but there's there's some really high-end kind of interior defensive linemen that at least as of right now are free agents. So if you did want to spend, I think you might have the opportunity to do that on a few different guys. Yeah, the biggest thing to me is not like a Leonard Williams who's a little older and actually might be on the decline rather than the upswing. And that's where someone like Christian Wilkins, also same thing.

I want somebody coming off of that first rookie contract and that's where Matt Abuike really stood out to me as this is a guy who seems to be on the rise he seems to be getting better and this year like you said a real breakout season I also think that this should go along with long shots and Javon Kinlaw is a bust. He did not work out with the San Francisco 49ers. There was little hints, maybe, in the pass rush. But this is the type of player that if you're taking a quarterback and your plan is not necessarily to compete for the Super Bowl this year,

in 2024, and it's a little more long-term, then I like those shots. And even though it didn't work out with Marcus Davenport because he got hurt, I still kind of even liked that. It was like, well, you know, if this works out, then you extend the guy and then you've got something really good here and he's got the physical talent. And that's kind of the point is Javon Kinlaw has the physical ability to potentially be really, really good. It's just that it has not come together yet. Pair him with Brian Flores, take a shot. If it doesn't work out, that's totally fine. I think they could be in a position if they move on from Kirk to have multiple iterations of that same type of move.

Yeah. Yeah. Kinlaw in that long-term view would make sense to me. He's honestly, for me personally, when I watch him, he's always been pretty underwhelming. Even the flashes are just, I don't know, man. I just, I've never really like totally seen it there. I know physically looking at him, he, you know, first guy off the bus, he looks kind of like a bodybuilder. I mean, he's, you know, he looks like just, you know, a total freak of nature and everything. And there's some good power there here and there. But man, I just, I don't know, man. I don't know.

I guess if you are, depending on the value, of course, of the contract and things like that, if you could get him on a really nice deal, then absolutely take a swing, you know. But I think for that one, it's just going to really come down to how much, you know, how much are you going to have to put forth money-wise to take that swing? And that's really what it comes down to for Kinlaw. But in a long-term view, sure, you know, I mean, I would definitely do that. And I'm with you on the Davenport thing as well. You know, I think that that made a lot of sense and it's worth a try, you know,

especially on the one year type deals, you know, like heck yeah. Why not? Right. Exactly. And I was thinking, and this is another pronunciation.

Sometimes AFC pronunciations get me because I don't see them play that often. Is it Josh? Is that how his last name is pronounced? Okay. Well him too, because this is another guy Uche. Okay. Well, him too. Because this is another guy who was drafted fairly high and had some moments,

but has not really put it all together consistently and had a down year on a Patriots team where a lot of people had down years. And I just think that those are the type of moves that you start to make in that situation. Another guy whose numbers kind of caught my eye was Dorrance Armstrong from Dallas. And honestly, I didn't know anything about this gentleman, but he popped a couple of times for me just watching Cowboys games. And I think that these are the types of

players the Vikings are going to have to target. His estimated pay by PFF is like eight and a half million a year. If you can get these guys for something like that like sub 10 million then they're totally worth it and i i kind of like i kind of like this plan a little better than the let's put all the money into two guys and hope that they stay healthy rather than hey let's get a star like matabike and then try to spread out to two, three, four other guys and just take shots at people. Because if you put all your eggs in the basket, and then like I mentioned with Michael Pierce, it doesn't work out. Or even with Zedarius Smith, the second half of last year, you're just kind of up a creek at that point. And that's why free agency can be as risky as anything else.

Yeah, I'm totally with you there. And Dor, Doris Armstrong, that's a great name to bring up. He's a guy who also the metrics I do have really liked a lot of high quality production as a pass rusher in terms of how he's winning and who he's beating. And the cool thing about him is he's a very versatile player in terms of alignment. He's a bigger guy, I think like 260, 270, and he plays inside and out. So he's a guy that you can move around, uh, you know, which Flores obviously likes a lot. So he, that's what he did in Dallas. You know, they move their guys around a lot. They run a ton of stunts, a ton of games, uh, you know, things like that twist.

Um, so Armstrong is very experienced in that sort of role. So I think it would be a seamless transition. And he's just been a guy who has impressive production in that role. So, and he's a guy that the Vikings don't really have, you know, right now either. So that one in particular for me, I think is one of the more favorite ones that you mentioned and, you know, could possibly happen as well. So that one's awesome. Now, as far as DJ Wanham goes,

I think that they really liked DJ Wanham and sometimes when coaches are saying, Hey, a lot of the stuff he does doesn't show up on paper. It's a little bit of a like, Oh, okay. Well, so you're trying to find a way to compliment a guy, but you don't really have any evidence that it's. And I believe that there's something to that. I think he's a really intelligent player who has improved every single year, but to me is not somebody that has much upside.

It's like, he sort of is what he is and he really should be the sixth guy on a defensive line as opposed to somebody who's like a really key player. So I think if they brought him back, I would kind of hesitate on that because I think there's just better options. I agree. Yeah. He's fine. You know, he's a guy, you know, you have him on the bench who could come in and play, you know, 10, 15, 20 snaps a game or something like that. I think that's probably the ideal role for him. You know, he can it work you know in spots like he did this year well i mean you know for the majority of the year as a starter but it's he's not going to move the needle very much so yeah i

i think that's kind of what he is and you know that's fine he's probably going to be able to last you know quite a while yeah no for sure i mean if you're a high intelligence player who your coach is like and who can fill a role you're going to be in the league for a long time but if we're talking about aiming to try to find some difference makers that's a different discussion now let's go over to the offensive line because i i also have plans for this as well uh they don't have a left guard presently and I don't love the idea of bringing back Dalton Reisner. I like Dalton Reisner a lot. And he made an argument for media good guy, always available, great guy to talk to. The problem is that this team, in expected points added, has ranked 27 two years in a row in run efficiency.

And that's bad. And Dalton Reisner, that's just not what he does. I think he really solidified them as a pass blocking unit to the point where they were finally competent for the first time since we've known each other, Brandon. But at the same time, I think you want somebody to solidify that interior who's going to be a difference maker in the run game. So that was not part of my plan necessarily to bring back Dalton Reisner, but you can convince me otherwise. I mean, I don't necessarily have like a super strong argument

for bringing him back. I think you definitely could, and it would probably be, you know, ultimately a net positive, but in terms of moving probably be, you know, ultimately a net positive, but in terms of moving the needle, you know, like, like you mentioned, you want like an impact run blocker, things like that. Yeah. I mean, you're probably gonna have to look elsewhere. So, uh, yeah, I mean, I think he's an option. Um, I don't know that he would be my number one option, but he's certainly, you know, one of the, you know, you know, B or C options that you can do and bring back and be fine. So this is something I want to ask you about, just as a little bit of an offshoot here.

The Vikings moving on from Ezra Cleveland in favor of Dalton Reisner. What did you think of the Ezra Cleveland story arc as if I could, because they draft him the second round and we all think, oh, wow. Okay. They've got Riley reefs replacement. They've got their next left tackle and so forth. And then he is never played at left tackle ever. They goes to right guard where he really struggles because that, I mean, left tackle to right guard is insane. And then they move them to left guard, where he struggled also, but then seemed to be making some progress this year. And then they trade him to Jacksonville.

What wasn't working there with Ezra Cleveland? Or what's your idea of maybe what happened? Why they never tried him at tackle? I mean, of course they draft Derrissaw, but still they were so confident that he wasn't a tackle that they went and drafted Derrissaw as well, and why they would have felt that Reisner was a better fit than him. I think the reason why they want Reisner is really just stability, and you know what you're getting with Reisner, whereas Cleveland is more up and down and there were, he never really kind of reached that, that even that evenness to his game. There were some, there's glaring losses and pass protection that,

you know, consistently happen even in the run game. And with Reisner, you don't really get that. It's more of just kind of a steady functional kind of guy. And, you know, Cleveland, you're on the roller coaster a little bit more and it just never evened out. So I think that's really ultimately what it is, you know, and, you know, it made a lot of sense, you know, why they went that direction to me because for those reasons, you know, they're Cleveland, obviously, you know, he tested really well and all that. And, you know, people think, you know, rightfully so to a degree that you know there's

there's upside here you know and you know that Reisner I think Reisner tested fairly well as well but he doesn't play very athletically I mean he's just not a great athlete on the field but he's very smart he's intelligent he's tough not saying Cleveland isn't these things but it manifests itself on the field in a different sort of way to where like with when he's uncovered in pass protection or even in pass protection, he's able to, you know, get to his spots more consistently and not get off levels, you know, with the with the tackle in the center and just cause, you know, just like let guys run by because he's out of position and just mistakes like that,

you know, or just kind of wild with his technique. Reisner's just kind of methodical and, you know, just one of those kind of guys who you know what you're getting. And that's the route that they decided to go. And I think it's just for stability reasons, you know, more than anything, because they kind of have already a guy who's a little bit more up and down at right guard, you know, so having another guy like that, you know, it's not really a great recipe to have a functional offensive line. So they kind of needed to balance it out a little bit there. point. And I think you're being polite about the toughness element. I don't think Ezra Cleveland brought any sandpaper to that position is at all, which a lot of left tackles don't, but all guards have to, all guards and centers have to play with more toughness. But that's where, when we look at something like a PFF grade, for example, on an offensive lineman, it always requires a lot of context to figure out what it's actually telling us. So if two guys are graded a 75 or something, right? Then like if

Ezra Cleveland 75 comes in amazing reps and terrible reps, but Dalton Reisner's comes in consistent, solid, solid, solid, solid. I would much rather have the solid guy than I would want wow he pancakes somebody or wow look at this incredible like athleticism on this play and then oh he's you know just letting someone walk right by him because he doesn't know what he's supposed to do on that play so that is a great point about the different types of player that you can be and how if you're a coach you'd much rather have that consistency i think than worrying every play is he not going to know how to pick up this rush or whatever else so uh you know i still think that cleveland is a guy that eventually can continue to get better

because he's still young playing that position but now moving back to our free agent options though so i have one of my plans for free agency for if they bring back Kirk Cousins was to just go all in on offense. Forget about the defensive side. Fill that, however. And you're just going to try to be a top five offense. And that would go along with trying to sign one of the most, if not the most, coveted offensive lineman out there this year, Kevin Dotson. Now, this is an expectation. He's going to make a lot, a lot of money, but I'm envisioning a left side of an offensive line, for example,

with Dotson and Christian Darasol or a right side, depending on how they want to do it with Brian O'Neill and Kevin Dotson, where you can run over that side over and over and over and over again and have two great run blocking players. And then of course, a serviceable pass blocker as well. Is that worth a massive investment or is this a player who kind of had a good year with McVay and now has all this buzz, but maybe isn't worth it? How do you view him? Yeah, this is a good one to bring up. So I think the first thing that people should understand with Dotson is he's a much better right guard than

left guard. And that was part of the reason why he left Pittsburgh is because, you know, he started off at right guard. He actually had, you know, a couple, couple games stretch, half season stretch or so where he was really, really good. And then they moved him the next year to left guard and he just wasn't the same player. And I had him on a film room actually a couple months ago, and he kind of went in detail about why that is in terms of his body mechanics and how he just does not like playing left guard. And he played, I think, 40 something games at right guard in college. He played right guard in high school. He just never was a left guard. So that's something with Dotson specifically that's important to remember. If you're going to sign him, keep him at right guard.

I mean, I think that if you don't, that's kind of malpractice at this point. And then also, I think if you are going to sign Dotson, ideally, you would kind of tweak your scheme a little bit or at least have visions of tweaking your scheme and not doing it just for Dotson but if he kind of fits within your plan and what I mean by that in your run game and incorporating more downhill gap sort of elements into the run game like the Rams did last year they they shifted you know offensive their identity offensively then they ran a lot of duo a lot of gap scheme, downhill runs. Whereas, you know, so if Minnesota wants to start doing some more of that and they want to, you know, become a little bit more of a physically imposing sort of run blocking

team, then yeah, I think with those two caveats, position and scheme, if those match up, then yeah, Dotson, I think would be worth, you know, pretty sizable contract, you know, not highest paid right guard in the league or anything, but, you know, one of the, I guess, five or six highest paid, you know, just kind of ballparking it. I think that would make a lot of sense because he is a difference maker as a run blocker. And like you mentioned, you know, he's, he's pretty good as a pass, pass protector as well. so this is where we get into the next level of the discussion which is ed ingram at right guard for me not heartbroken if you were bringing in kevin dotson and moving ed ingram to left or just moving him to left bench because i think that he made

some strides but it was really interesting and kind of red flaggy to me where he starts out the season really bad and then they bring in Dalton Reisner and all of a sudden his play improves for a couple weeks and then it started to fade again toward the end of the season and he had some of his worst games toward the end of the year and I just didn't see a ton of progress there like it was better it wasn't his first year was you can't be a starter in the nfl and it's it wasn't like you drew samia level quite uh but it was it was a real struggle and then this this year it was still mediocre below average type of right guard play and i'm always willing to give guys time but when you're still in the top five and pressure is allowed in the regular season,

I'm fine with replacing you with whoever can do that job a little bit better. Am I being too harsh on Ed Ingram here? No, I think that's fair. I mean, it all comes down to how the offensive line is being built, really. You know, it's because, you know, it was a second year, you know, you give them another year. If you do bring in, you know, a Dotson or like a really high level left guard or something, you know, via whether you draft them, I don't know that there's one of those guys in free agency, but say via the draft or whatever. And, you know, if, if, if

Ingram is your fifth best starter and that's kind of what you're going into. And, you know, if, if, if Ingram is your fifth best starter and that's kind of what you're going into the year, you know, anticipating, then you can live with bringing him back into the starting lineup, I think. And, you know, any sort of improvement, you know, great, you know, that would be awesome. But if, if you don't, you know, invest a lot in your offensive line, whether upgrading center or, you know, upgrading left guard, you know, in a major way. And then now all of a sudden Ed Ingram is your third or your fourth best, you know, then, yeah, replacing him. And, you know, it becomes a little bit more easy to kind of move on from him in that situation because you are searching for, you know, an upgrade, you know, in more of like a, an urgent way, you know? So I guess it just depends on kind of how, you know, you, you move the chairs around a little bit on other spots. But I could kind of

go either way, you know, like, I think there is a pathway for him to continue to get better and, you know, reach a solid level. But at the same time, maybe, you know, if you structure the offensive line a certain way and you can make upgrades, he could just be a depth guy, you know, at that point. So it is kind of on that line right now, you know, where you have to make that decision. And, you know, I just think outside factors

are going to play, you know, a big role in kind of how you approach that. I think he would have to make really big gains next year and if look at if you're not bringing back kirk i guess you can be patient with that although i don't really want a young quarterback with a right guard who has a tendency he does really the same thing that we were talking about with ezra cleveland where it's just shocking losses like what what happened there and you're sacked and i don't know if i love that i would rather somebody who can at least strain to kind of hold on a little bit uh and do something

to slow down a pass rusher as opposed to just you're destroyed immediately anybody on the market i'll throw out some names for you that you would consider to be like a good fit that's not the most expensive guy like a damian lewis from seattle john runyon uh the current john runyon not the guy that we grew up watching who was humongous and crazy and awesome uh jonah jackson um john simpson graham glasgow like any of these guys stand out to you as like hey that guy's underrated and you might be able to get him for a little bit cheap? I mean, of those names, I actually like all those guys to varying degrees, but the one I like the most by far is Jonah Jackson. I think he's one of the five or six best left guards in the league when he's healthy, you know, for sure. So it's just he was dinged up quite a bit last year. But when he's on the field, he's kind of an impact player, man, I think.

So, yeah, if you could get him for any sort of bargain deal, I mean, he's a left guard as well. Like, yeah, man, that would be a big upgrade. And him and Derrissaw could be, you know, a really kind of a dynamic duo over there. So, to me, by far, Jonah Jackson is kind of the prize, you know, of that group. And then there's, depending on the contract, we get guys cheaper, you know, like a guy like Runyon, I think, you know, I still like him, you know, pretty young

as well, still, you know, 26, almost 27. So, you know, a guy like that has had good moments, you know, in the past uh you know at guard especially in pass protection um but yeah if you're searching for a guy who can make a real difference and you know in free agency i think jonah jackson is the guy at guard for sure let me ask you one broad question very broad here to wrap up the vikings have decisions to make here a lot of them as we gone through I mean we spent a lot of time here we only just scratched the surface of options that they're going to have depending on their quarterback situation but as you watch the league and you study the league and

you study tape offensive defensive line was there something that stuck out to you this year where you said you know what this is kind of where things are going. This is where things are headed. This is how defenses are playing. This is how offensive lines are being built. A trend of some kind that the Vikings should be paying attention to as they approach this or a philosophy that maybe you solidified throughout the year in your studies that you're like, you know what, I think this is how it should be done. Did you come across anything like that this year? You know, there, there's a couple of things. I mean, I think, you know, being multiple in your run game, maybe if anything, you know, kind of incorporating more gap sort of runs to where you are, you know, you know, it's kind of cliche imposing your will a little bit more on guys, you know, on defenses you know, it's kind of cliche, imposing your will a little bit more on guys,

you know, on defenses, you know, running more duo, more even, you know, I guess inside zone, power, counter, and just being multiple, you know, in your run game. I think the best run games in the league, even the traditionally zoned run games, excuse me, McVay, Shanahan, those guys really are multiple now. It's not zoned anymore. So I think, you know, being multiple in your run game is huge. And then, you know, you guys do it and a lot of the best offenses, pretty much all the best offenses for the most part do it. Incorporating a lot of eye candy, you know, into your pass game, whether that's motion, you know, formation, you know, diversity, you know, RPOs, play action, you know, you guys are one of the heaviest play action teams in the league, which I think is great.

You know, it's not a true drop back game. You just don't have the offensive tackles to do that. There's not a lot of quarterbacks that can operate that way. So you have to get a lot out of your scheme. And I think in pass protection in particular, just to make life easier on everybody, you know, offensive line and quarterback specifically, I think the best offenses are doing that at the highest level and they know how to manipulate defenses, you know, accordingly. And, but yeah, I think the run game one, you know, stands out to me, you know, over the last couple of years, the way it's shifting, you know, just more size, more power and unleashing that with your scheme a little bit more while still having zone runs, of course, you know, every team, I think just more and more teams are

multiple now, you know, you don't have a heavy zone system, you know, I mean, it's, it's, it's kind of rare. You just don't see that a lot. And I think for good reason, there's a lot of teams are having success now, you know, being that multiple kind of run game. So those are a couple of things I think that have stood out, not just this year, but kind of the last couple of years, you know, that are kind of trending in that direction, I think. Yeah, that's very interesting. And I think that also pairing your running back, this is something that I was thinking about this year, the type of running back you have

with the type of schemes that you're implementing. So is your running back more of a power fit, more of a zone fit? And how can you mix and match with those things? Because very few teams have a Christian McCaffrey that can literally do anything. And I thought that was a bit of a struggle for the Vikings where Alexander

Madison is more of an outside zone type of back. It's what he was in college, what he came into the league. And then you're asking him to do different things. The Vikings, when got a great pass blocking tight end and Josh Oliver and never quite really seemed to understand how to use that. So I think that they've got some work to do there.

And a great, great point about you have to help your offensive lineman as much as you possibly can because there's just too many monsters on the defensive side to just say, all right, line them up and just do your best. So I think the Vikings still have some things to work on there. Trench warfare, best way to find it is on Substack or if you just Google, and I was just doing that if you saw my eyes twitching around on the YouTube, just to make sure.

It is the first thing that pops up if you type in trench warfare football on Google so that you can find it that way. You can go to your Twitter, which is at Brandon Thorne NFL. You tweet out a lot of interesting stuff with things that you're working on, film clips of offensive and defensive linemen, observations that you make. So you're a great follow on Twitter as well. And I'm just happy for you as a guy who has gone this route of going all in on analyzing offensive and defensive line. And I've seen trench warfare grow over the years. So I'm really, really happy to see that, man. And great that we could get together again. So thanks for

doing this. Yeah, man, absolutely. And, you know, I attribute a lot of why I'm doing what I'm doing to like, you know, you kind of setting the path and doing the sub stack first and having success. So, you know, and helping me along the way. So, I mean, yeah, thank you too. And it's cool to, to see your success and yeah, man, it's just cool to connect again. It's, you know, it's been, it's been a while now, so this is, this is always good. Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, they, uh, fired me from a radio job, so I had no other choice, but if I, if my one thing I can give back to the world is encouraging talented people to create content like you have, then I'm very happy about it. So, yeah, thanks again, man.

Thanks, everybody, for listening. And I know, as you know, our audience is obsessed with the trenches. So you are the go-to guy. So we'll talk to you all later. you