Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Tyler Dunne tells stories from his new book on tight ends, "The Blood and Guts"

Episode Date: October 21, 2022

Tyler Dunne wrote a book called "The Blood and Guts: How tight ends save football." He joins to tells some of the most interesting tales from the book and talk about where the great tight ends fit into NFL history. Then Matthew Coller answers several fan questions, including picking the Vikings vs. Packers' remaining schedules  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Purple Insider presented by Liquid Death. Go to liquiddeath.com slash insider and learn about the Tallboy can, which actually has water. Find out where you can get it near you at liquiddeath.com slash insider. Hello, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and joining me. And since we're in the bye week, I wanted to do a very special episode

in the return of the Purple Insider Book Club. It is Tyler Dunn, whose book has just come out, The Blood and Guts, How Tight Ends Save Football. insider book club it is tyler dunn whose book has just come out the blood and guts how tight ends save football and tyler also of course of go long td as you have been on the show numerous times and written some great and in-depth features about the minnesota vikings um but tyler it's almost like someone asked me what would you like a book about? And I would say tight ends and you've done it. What's going on, man? Oh my God.

Well, it's a pleasure to be here then. It's a position that speaks to our inner football soul. I feel like we're kind of brothers from another mother, Matt, when it comes to loving the sport for the way the football gods intended. So hell yeah, I had to throw myself into this project, this concept, and had no idea what to expect. Like how many of these guys even want to talk to some balded, bearded dude from Western New York about their life in the tight end position?

And they blew me away with their time, the generosity, their access. It was a labor of love in every sense of the cliche from Dicka to Kittle. Well, you know, what was interesting to me in reading it is that I kind of thought that you were going to have these guys sort of like analyze football, right? Like analyze the tight end position. And what it turned into much more is the incredible stories of these guys in football, which, which I, I love, and I want a lot more. Um, I, I don't necessarily need old tight end saying, yeah, it's about blocking the edge or whatever. Um, but you really got these guys to open up about their life stories. And I wanted to talk about a few

that I really loved because I just think they're great football stories and that everyone in our audience will enjoy them. The Jackie Smith story is really incredible. The fact that you were able to get him to talk about the drop in the Super Bowl was shocking. I've never read that before. And I think that you said he had not talked about it and he had held onto it for the longest time. And then you got him to open up after a few beers. And I think that he's one of the most interesting figures in the NFL, such a great player for so long. It was at the very tail end of his career. And then you had this chance to sit down. I'd love to hear you talk more about that conversation with him. I'm so glad you brought up Jackie Smith. I don't want him to get

lost amidst like all these other big time names, right? Grant Kittle, Dick Mackey, Winslow. He had as much to do, you know, when you do talk about the schematic, you know, aspect of the position as any tight end he he stretched the field he ran routes down the field at one point when we're hanging out at uh cyborgs i think was the restaurant in st louis he pops up out of his stool at you know 82 and is pretending to run routes and explaining how he was able to get open there's all that stuff and we we got into his rise because it is nuts i mean he grew up up in nowhere in Louisiana as a track star that had nothing to do with football, barely played.

And the only way reason he played football in college was because the track coach told him, I'll give you a scholarship if you also play football. So it was just kind of a bonus to get him there. He wasn't going to be able to pay his way to a college. So yeah, all that stuff is worth folks' time. And I think Jackie Smith deserves his due when it comes to his significance to the tight end position. But really, I think we entitled that chapter a mindset because he gave the position a mentality to overcome adversity that we did see in the Dallas Clarks. You know, his mom dies in his arms later in life. Jimmy Graham, when he's fighting for his life day to day in a group home and he thinks he's going to die, you know, as basically an orphan.

Jackie Smith, what he went through after that Super Bowl drop, it was life shattering in just about every way I mean this is one of the the nicest most gentle kind souls you'll ever meet in your life I felt like I was hanging out with my own grandfather over a couple beers I mean the similarities between Jackie Smith and Hugh Dunn it kind of blew my mind I mean just two two of the best men on the face of the earth and you could see how much that moment in time when he dropped that pass in the Super Bowl against the Pittsburgh Steelers at the tail end of his career, right? He already has a Hall of Fame-bound career. Tom Landry calls. He goes there. He's a blocking tight end at that point. He's not catching

anything. Catches a touchdown in a playoff game that's huge to get them to the Super Bowl, and then wide open, drops it. There's a lot that goes into that play where Jackie Smith does not deserve nearly as much scoring as he got. Roger Staubach has been open on it, on the way he threw the ball. Everybody was shocked he was so wide open. The play call itself shouldn't have been called about nine, 10 yards out. It was a goal line play. So that threw off the dimensions of the route. But it shook his life in so many ways. And it took Jackie Smith decades to get over it.

He admitted. And it wasn't something, to your point, that I just jumped right into. It's not like we sat down and said, hey, let's talk about the worst moment of your life. It kind of had to build up to that moment, build up that trust. And he eventually got to that point where he was ready to talk about that play, that drop and what it did to him. It affected his relationships, his wife, his kids, his kids, especially. He became distant in a lot of ways. And it wasn't until really 2020, two years ago, that Jackie Smith looked himself in the mirror and said, you son of a, like, get it together, get it together. And now he just can't stop talking about his kids.

The relationships are great and he is in a good, good place spiritually. And I think that he gave the position, the mindset that it really needed long term. Yeah. So what's fascinating about that play also is it also the iconic calls on television and radio that stuck with people. It was third down, not fourth down, by the way. They could have gone for it. They settled for a field goal, but they could have gone for it. Like in today's game, the team probably just goes for it and does not settle for a field goal. But that moment became so iconic that ESPN ranked it 24th

out of their top 100 greatest Super Bowl moments. So this really lived with him. It was against Pittsburgh, Super Bowl XIII, and it stuck with him forever. And I have thought about that a number of times when watching NFL films, documentaries, just about the Super Bowls and that play and everything else. And I love how you describe his emotions afterward that were captured on TV also made it stick out. It wasn't like it kind of just hit the ground and whatever,

like it was so clear how upset he was with himself, that all those things kind of converge, even though like many plays in history, there's so many other parts of that that went into it. Also, they lost 35 to 31. Like feel free to stop somebody on the other side, right? Or like I said, go for it on fourth down. You didn't have to kick a field goal,

but it is amazing to me. And I know that this is true for Gary Anderson with the Vikings, how this lives with people. Like Gary Anderson has pretty much just not done any real media at all. After what happened with him. And that was in 1998 and he continued to kick, but did not talk about it really at all. Scott Norwood came back to Buffalo and did an event.

And I think I was there. Cause I think it was like 2013 or 14 when Scott and there was almost nothing from him until the documentary that was done. So it's it's amazing to me how these guys, especially the Super Bowl moments, that they live with them forever. And I think that you end up feeling very empathetic toward Jackie Smith because he's a Hall of Famer. He had one of the greatest careers and was one of the most influential people at that position. But that ends up what he ends up being known for. It's unfair, you know, and that's to put it lightly. I don't even know the word for it.

It's not right. It's criminal. I mean, Jackie Smith, what he did for the game, for the position, for the city of St. Louis. I mean, he might be the best football player to ever come through the city of St. Louis, you know, especially up until Kurt Warner. Right. And his own team, you know, the Arizona Cardinals now, for whatever reason, like they don't even put his name in the ring of honor because he was feuding like with the owner on his way out decades ago. So, I mean, that's a whole other element to this all that you feel bad for Jackie Smith. And it's just not right. I mean, for a second, two seconds of time to define who you are

in the eyes of many, it's, I can't imagine, you know, being defined by something that happens in that blink of an eye and on all of our lives. And I think that's a big point of the book. It's like these dudes that play the tight end position. It is a profession unlike any in America. I mean, you're bashing into other people. You're trying to beat the hell out of other people, practicing, practice out game in game out. Then you're in a cold tub talking about it. It's weird. It's different. It's strange.

And this is the player kind of keeping that essence alive. And beyond the physical, it's the mental. And I think that Jackie Smith mentally to fight through what he did and have it affect him where his relationships did become strained, where he did become distant. And he genuinely is torn up by it. I mean, he shed tears when we're hanging out multiple times. He's, he's pulling out, you know, a quote that he keeps in his front pocket that is, that spoke to him, Ralph Waldo Emerson. Yeah, it's, it's, it's profound and it makes you feel

bad, but I think the fact that he got through it says a lot about who Jackie Smith is and the way he does get through it. I want everybody to read the book. Obviously we got a ton more in there. He works out every day. I mean, we talk a lot about players who are struggling, you know, cognitively, physically later in life for good reason. I mean, Ben Coates being one who doesn't even drive, it's hard enough for him to even walk around his own house. Jackie Smith is throwing around dumbbells and working out at 82, which is remarkable. So he has found these little ways to kind of like move on and in his own mind, know who he is, the person he is, the player he was. And I think working out, strengthening those relationships with his kids helps him accomplish that. Yeah, I wanted to bring that one up first because it just really jumped off the page to me. And I think it is such a fascinating position.

I was at the combine and I was in a who knows where, like as as happens at the combine, you're just in some random hotel bar or something. And I was talking to a guy who was like, you know, a guy trying to get drafted and he's a tight end. So, of course, like six foot seven and 230 pounds as they all are these days. And we were having this conversation about why tight end is the most difficult position and why it's so fascinating and why it takes really a special person, because you have to be willing to do all the blocking and, and run routes and make plays, but also be able to understand all of those things. And I think what really comes across in the book is how intelligent a lot of these players are. And there's one I want to talk to you about after this.

But I wonder, like, was that one of the reasons why this was so captivating to you as a subject? That was something that surprised me, honestly. You know, long story short, what made me dive headfirst into the blood and guts and learning about the tight end position and and its significance to the game was I'm an old soul I love old school football like we hit on like I just I feel like this is the dude that's keeping it alive what I didn't expect is how smart these guys are and next to the quarterback nobody on an offense needs to know more than the tight end. I mean, you need to know what the linemen are doing and how to block power, how to block zone plays in the running game. You need to know everything a wide receiver does, how to run routes, how to read coverages.

You might even be in the backfield protecting the quarterback. I'll put it this way. It's no coincidence that so many tight ends are broadcasters today. Greg Olson might be the best color man in the game we talked about you know how he saw the game uh tony gonzalez has been a broadcaster for a long long time gosh who i mean mike dicka obviously mike dicka was iconic so you just have to know everything i mean that's part of it but even beyond that I think that um it's the personality too I think that's a big reason that they're they're broadcasters as well that Dallas Clark kind of put it best like you know the linemen they're they're pissed off at us

because we're stepping on their toes and the receivers are pissed off at us because we're taking targets away from them we kind of feel feel like this lost, you know, redheaded stepchild, like who even wants me around? And maybe it creates this inferiority complex. They're underpaid. I mean, they do everything, yet they're not paid much at all. I mean, next to specialists and fullbacks, nobody makes less. So I think that kind of feeds a personality, a chip on the shoulder, a hunger. You add it all up and you have a creature unlike anything in sports yeah and and

that's why i really love the the concept um because obviously it's been our experience here with somebody like kyle rudolph uh a guy who could easily be a broadcaster at the end of his career um very very intelligent player um but i i think that that's something that has to be pervasive among all of these guys or you're just not going to make it because the position is so complicated. So I want to talk in that vein about Ozzie Newsome, who I've always found to be a super fascinating character. his playing career and the type of person and player he was, which is just an incredible all-time great player. With what he did after in the front office of the Baltimore Ravens and, of course, the Cleveland Browns before that, but really being integral in building the Baltimore Ravens. And he just seems like such a quiet and humble person.

But when you look at how they built those Baltimore Ravens teams that ended up winning the Super Bowl in 2000, I mean, it's really a lot of great decisions and a lot of great process that, you know, you're hiring Kweisi Adafo Mensahs to bring in, you know, and people who are Harvard educated or Princeton educated or whatever to try to put in the right processes and everything else. And Ozzie Newsom was kind of doing some of this stuff intuitively, which I think is really, really fascinating. Intuitively is the perfect word too, because that's what he was born into. He was born into chaos in the segregated South, right? I mean, all of the iconic things that we learned about in history class in middle school, Ozzie Newsom was smack dab born in the middle of all this going on.

I mean, he lived it on his, on a youth baseball team. You know, his team had was forced to stay somewhere else when they're traveling because people on the compound at the complex where they're staying didn't like the fact that it was African-Americans there. I mean, this is all he's known. And I think his mom and dad, I mean, just a huge effect on how he saw the world. And look, you can only control what you can control.

Like, you know, you have to deal with the hand that you were dealt and just kind of keep looking forward, stay calm in the chaos, and live the life and treat everybody with respect. And that's what he did. I mean, he went to an all white school. He kicked everybody's butts in every possible sport. He goes to Alabama shortly after Alabama desegregated. It was not long before that they only let white players play at Alabama. So he gets there, him and Bear Bryant. I mean, Bear Bryant's like another father to Ozzie Newsome.

Unbelievable relationship. He did not want to let Bear Bryant down. And when Bear Bryant spoke up once into his final season at Alabama, I mean, that's a conversation that sticks with Ozzie Newsome to this day. Fast forward through all the playoff heartbreak with the Cleveland Browns, the chaos he dealt with in all those games, all of those moments. Your listeners here in Minnesota, I'm sure, can relate. Ozzie Newsome lived it with the Cleveland Browns.

But then, yeah, you're right, the Baltimore Ravens. I don't think younger fans like ourselves really understood what it was like for the Cleveland Browns to become the Baltimore Ravens. Art Modell being the most hated man in the state of Ohio. And then you're just creating a team from scratch in a lot of ways. I mean, they're at this old police barracks. That's their headquarters. They've got VHS tapes lined up along the border of this place.

Phil Savage, in talking to him about this all, had some amazing stories on just how bare bones it was. And Ozzie Newsom was the man entrusted with building this team from scratch. And he was just kind of a grunt scout for Bill Belichick with the Cleveland Browns. But Art Modell trusted him. He basically, he wasn't officially the GM for a few years, but he was the GM. He was the one that had to make this work. And he made it work.

And we get into the backstory of the Jonathan Ogden pick, the Ray Lewis right Art Modell Ted Marchabrota they wanted Lawrence Phillips they wanted the big splash they wanted to make hay in this new city this new market and Ozzie Newsom's like that calm and chaos just trust what your scouts see Jonathan Ogden was number one on the board yeah they had an offensive tackle but Jonathan Ogden believe, could play guard for a year, become a tackle. Then all they do is, you know, create this machine of a front office that's really the envy of everybody around the NFL. I mean, you talk to people around the league

and you ask, who does it right? Like, what front office is really structured the right way? It's Ozzie Newsome. It's the Baltimore Ravens. It's everything that they built. Folks, those who know me well are aware that i'm not a big drinker but when my neighbors recently dropped by they were surprised to see a bunch of tall boy cans laying around no i didn't change my life choices those

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Pick it up at Target, Hy-Vee, Whole Foods, or go to liquiddeath.com slash insider. That's liquiddeath.com slash insider and use their store locator. Yeah, and of course, there was a lot of connection for me reading about it with the Vikings and Cleveland Browns, the things that he went through the red, right 88 with Brian Sipe and so forth. But really the, the team building part of it is, is interesting because you're kind of able to in the,

in the book and what you do so well. And you know that I have such great respect for you as a reporter, but I just love how you kind of tie in what Ozzie Newsome went through as a kid to how that affected him through his entire life, his work ethic on the field, how he approached with a lot of humility as a member of the front office, which I think that you and I have been around a lot of teams that there's not always humility. And no, but is this not right though? Like, I i think that that's if you're asking me like what makes the difference between somebody who might succeed or last way longer than they should and someone who's getting fired earlier it's usually arrogance and humility

arrogance versus humility like the people who understand what they don't know or the people who empower other people in front offices. Like what? Also, what I'm saying here is in this book, there's a lot of other things that are kind of NFL lessons that go beyond just, hey, here's a tight end story. And as I was reading the Ozzie Newsome part, that really jumped out to me like, yeah, I can see why this guy succeeded, because like you said, he wanted to go to a white school because he felt that it would help him in the long run, even if it would be really difficult. That's a child making that decision, but he sort of understood process even as a kid. That's, that's so interesting. It is. It blew me away to have that head on your shoulders at such a young age to say, no, I, I want to go to the best possible school, get the best possible education, and I'll put my ability up with anybody

because I don't see skin color. I'm just a kid. I just want to play sports. I want to learn in school. That steady, like, calming influence, and it carried through this entire life. I thought you put it perfect on the humility, too. I mean, Phil Savage, Kirk Ferentz worked with him for a long, long time.

Everybody who's been around Ozzie Newsome, I get it again, just says this is one of the best men you'll meet. There's no ego about him. I mean, he is the same person day in and day out. And a lot of people claim to be the same person day in and day out. And they're not. There's sticks up you know where. they they they think there's stuff doesn't stink and they operate it through the lens of just being the head honcho having a ton of ego and that's how things go south for a lot of NFL teams where he really does bring everybody in all the scouts feel a part of the process there with the Baltimore Ravens.

And you don't hear that everywhere. And I think that a lot of teams are kind of doomed when they don't just take everybody into consideration. I did a big series on the New York Giants last year. And with Dave Gettleman, it was not that. It was not collaborative. It got really weird at the end. And Ozzie Newsome, year in and year out for two decades, took on all the opinions.

He knew that he had that final say, but everybody felt a part of the process. I feel like that's what the Minnesota Vikings are really trying to build there. I mean, I'm talking to the head coach, talking to the GM, and it's early. Obviously, it's very early, but it's, it sounds like you're talking to Ozzie Newsome and the Baltimore Ravens in so many ways. And I we've seen it really so far the way that the players have responded to these things. And I know that, you know, their, their record is good. So it's very easy to say like, look, it's working. But I think that even in, as a long-term model of having the

players feel more involved, having everybody in the front office feel more involved. And I also think that them not coming in and firing all the scouts and hiring their own new guys was kind of a signal as well of like, we want everybody to be more of a part of this because I think a lot of front offices do that and they just bring in their own guys. But if you're bringing in your own guys, are you just getting people who are going to agree with you? Right. And just listen to you. So anyway, that's kind of diverging off of the tight end subject. But I think that as I went through this, I kind of learned a lot of things about, you know, how football works and what, you know, kind of how players see the game and how different guys are even after their

careers. So now if you've been listening to this so far and maybe didn't watch Jackie Smith or Ozzie Newsome, we can fast forward a little bit to another one that stuck out to me. I just thought this was the best way to tell some of these stories. I love it. I love going back in time, right? It's great. Well, you know that I do. I mean, every time on NFL films that they play the Super Bowl recaps, starting with the first one, it's like, Bart Starr ran the bootleg or whatever.

It's like, yes. But more modernly, Dallas Clark in this is a really amazing story. And some of these I just had no idea. I mean, now I feel like with Twitter, we know everybody's story all the time. I did not know about Dallas Clark losing his mother, what he went through at Iowa to even become a tight end. And then he becomes the right-hand man to Peyton Manning. And, you know, he's just – his entire career he's just out there with like a weird tight end number running over the

middle of the field. Open is kind of an outlet for Peyton Manning, but he ends up playing such a massive role in the success of those teams. And he was a guy that probably about at the time he started college would have had a 0.001% chance of ever making the NFL. No doubt about it. That might have been my favorite chapter to write. And like all 15 chapters are essentially, you know, 15 long form stories ranging from anywhere out of 6,000 words to 12,000 words. And learning about Dallas Clark, it did blow my mind where I had the same thoughts you did.

Here's somebody in this pyrotechnic offense, you know, that's running at this insane historic pace, number 44 in the slot at tight end, doing some new things schematically, but I didn't know anything about him as a person, as a player, anything. And we talked for, gosh, over two, three different conversations, probably four, five, six hours. You just can't get enough of Dallas Clark. He's got stories for days, and it all has a similar to Jackie Smith roots

in everything we see on the field schematically and how different this offense was. It's not a coincidence. It starts, like you said, high school senior, getting ready for graduation. Tragically, I think it was the same night as the Seinfeld finale. He can still kind of hear the Green Day song playing in the house. His mother in the garage just passes out and dies in his arms. He says goodbye to his mother in his arms. And as we get into the relationship he had with his dad was not good. His dad in many ways was not a dad.

So his mom was really everything. That was his world. And his life really could have gone one of two directions. And he gets into this. He could have gone south. He could have wallowed in self pity. He could have blamed God. He remembers thinking that things can get very, very dark in that moment. Instead, he walks out of Iowa, and it took a long time at Iowa, but from, God, his appendix bursting to, you know, God, I'm trying to jog my memory. You probably know better than me. He busts his shoulder.

He's wearing weird numbers. He's playing linebacker. He's a terrible linebacker. He doesn't really know what the hell he's doing out there. And it took Kirk Ferentz, like looking at this guy, Hey, this is kind of strange. Like he's got all these measurables that are off the charts. You know, everything we do in the weight room is, is freaky. Why, why isn't it showing up at linebacker? Like there's some kind of disconnect. So moves him to tight end and it's perfect. It's a perfect fit. Everything the position demands, everything that Dallas Clark embodied. I mean,

this is somebody who, I mean, he's, he's selling the school paper. He's going through every, he's a test dummy for, you know, students in the psychology department, any way he could make a penny, a dime to pay his way through school, he was doing it. He's literally mowing Kinnick Stadium, which is a hilarious story there. When he's mowing, he falls asleep at the wheel and takes out part of the structure on the side. He was born to play tight end. He was built to play tight end.

And everything really did take off at Iowa. Bill Pullian realized this is somebody that was a perfect fit for Peyton Manning, a matchup nightmare where if you put him in the slot, nobody can hang with this dude. And it took off. And I think that his relationship with Peyton Manning played a big part in it, too. I didn't know that they were so close. Chatted with Peyton Manning for the book as well. They really did kind of develop a rapport in practice in the middle of the offseason in a way that was new for that era. And it wasn't like they just went up the route tree, right? They weren't just doing the choreo one through nine. It was, OK, today we're going to work on a four. Today we're going to work on a seven.

And they would just drill it drill it drill it until they had it down perfect um and then we saw what we saw in the playoffs when he's making you know an iconic catch against the Baltimore Ravens to get his team to the Super Bowl folks I know you've heard me talk about soda stick for a long time now but I'm telling you you have to start following them on social media for new fresh gear they are releasing all the time of course they have the classics like the moss moon design and the metrodome shirts and hoodies but as the local teams go along in their seasons soda stick is constantly putting out new stuff whether it's the new horn state gear or the vikadantis rex

shirts lots and lots more from all the Minnesota clubs, go to soda stick.com and follow them at soda stick on Twitter. That is S O T a S T I C K.com on Twitter and use the code purple insider to get 15% off your purchase. And this one sort of tells you about a lot of times you don't understand what it takes for these guys to get here and we try to chronicle as many of these stories as we can when it comes to football but i mean the the journey that it takes for for a lot of players most players most players are not like oh everything just went great from here

to the nfl there are some guys i mean like stefan diggs you know they're in buffalo where you live i mean he was a five-star recruit in college but had a serious injury and some other things happen and he ends up you know being a fifth round draft pick for the vikings and had to fight his way through that. So even guys who are five star recruits, you know, in this Dallas Clark story, the amount of things that he went through to even just be in the NFL is truly incredible. And also like NIL forever, by the way, when you read this, just come on, man. Like the things that the guy had to do because he didn't have a lot of support it also

sort of says that it takes an entire community or of people to get somebody to the nfl because he talks about all the people in his life that helped him get there and these are just some of the stories that i really love from this book so i think um people should should look into it but i wanted to ask you because i know that you are you are on a tour at this moment. So the, um, in fact, you're going to go in and do an interview with Drew McGarry, our friend, uh, who's been on the show from defector. But I want, I just wanted to ask you about like the, the modern tight end, because you talked to some modern tight ends as well. Rob Gronkowski, recently in the NFL, um, just, just how the position has changed in your mind, because I think it has, and it hasn't that they are lighter and people are looking more for

receiving tight ends. But you know, when I was watching the Raiders the other day, Darren Waller gets hurt. So they got their backup tight end in that. They, they have this big package with two tight ends. They run a play action and Devante Adams is screaming down the field.

And you still saw the big personnel from the other team because they were worried about getting run over with the tight ends. It's like this always in forever, man, that when tight ends are out there, the other team is like, what do we do with these guys? The Vikings had a legitimate advantage with Kyle Rudolph and Irv Smith on the field at the same time. So I think that as a lot of things morph and change in the NFL, the tight end kind of stays

the same. And another thing that stays the same is the fact that there's like four good ones. This position is so hard. There's like four dudes who can really play it. And then there's some dudes who can do some of it and a lot of dudes who can do almost none of it. So I guess I just wonder about the big picture of the tight end position since you wrote a whole book about. You're absolutely right. I think that to this day, we can become enamored with the Kyle Pitts of the world all we want. No knock on Kyle Pitts. I mean, there are some like burly, grisly, grit and grime tight ends who do love Kyle Pitts and what he could do for the position because you know somebody like that could end up raising the pay scale of the tight end because

the tight end is so underpaid but the best of the best they block I mean George Kittle put it best when we chatted he said I love to block because it's fun it's just fun to drive a dude 10 yards down the field and laugh laugh in his face after you just slam them into the turf. Like that's football. But schematically, if you have that threat, if the defense knows and the linebacker knows, and whoever's across from you on the line of scrimmage knows,

man, like I'm going to get creamed here in the run game. Holy heck. Is that going to help you as a pass receiver? I mean, you can just kind of run a little pop route a little pop pass run something short all of a sudden you're behind the defense because they're terrified of you as a blocker and you're off 50 60 70 yards for a touchdown that threat is

always going to be there let alone the fact that a defensive coordinator I mean they're not going to know what you're doing out there if you can actually block and you can actually run a route where whereas, you know, Kyle Pitts, I'm using his name because he was, you know, drafted so high, but a lot of finesse, thin, agile tight ends when they're out there. You're not worried about the run going his direction at all, like at all. So I get it like we love to like poke fun at Tony Gonzalez and Shannon Sharp and but they did enough blocking to where there was at least a threat I mean Terrell Davis had one of the best stretches of running back has ever had those couple seasons because Shannon Sharp bought into what Mike Shanahan was was telling him to do and we get into that as well but he he did enough that the threat was was there Tony

Gonzalez and Jason Dunn working in tandem you know they helped Priest Holmes run for whatever it was 25-27 touchdowns today there's not a lot of guys you know it's not as mainstream but Kittle even Kelsey to an extent there are tight ends around that can at least keep it alive, which in essence keeps football alive, right? I think that Shannon Sharp and Rob Gronkowski, if you're making a top 25 players of all time, considering the degree of difficulty and the impact of their blocking ability combined with what they could do receiving,

to me, those guys are top 25 all-time players because of that and it's always about like did you catch 100 passes every year but the whole impact on the game to have basically an offensive tackle and rob gronkowski at his best six offensive linemen oh and a guy who can run down down the field and catch 100 passes i mean there's just few players like those guys of all time. And maybe even though they're hall of famers don't even get quite the respect they deserve. So that's why I love that you did this. It is a wonderful book. And, uh, and I don't just mean that because we're friends. I mean, last night. So I'll tell you this. I was done with

my own work at about 12, 20 AM last last night and i had not picked up your book yet and so i was like you know what all right let me let me take a look through and let me get some things to talk about and i ended up being up till like three in the morning reading all the way through it and that and that speaks to well i'm a night owl but that also speaks to you and how well you did this so i i really uh appreciate taking the time, putting Purple Insider on the tour to tell some of the stories from this book, The Blood and Guts, How Tight Ends Save Football by Tyler Dunn. You can get it wherever you get your books. And I'm happy for you, man. I'm proud of you that you put all this work in. Well-running go-long TD, which I know how much work that is. So I really appreciate you taking the time and congratulations on the book.

Hey, no, I cannot thank you enough, Matt. It's been great hopping on the show like this. And it means so much that you would take, you know, three hours in the middle of the night to read Blood and Guts. So thank you for that. And thank you to all the readers out there for clicking on Amazon, buying the Blood and Guts, however, wherever you get it. I just think this can be a, you know, a Bible for the football soul in us all, right? It was so much fun to work on. You know what I mean? I just can't wait for people to hear these

stories more than anything. I've been sitting on this for, you know, this past year and, you know, it'll make you laugh. It'll make you cry. I mean, there's a lot in here that I think people are just going to have a riot reading. So I just can't wait for them to kind of be in that joy, that state of joy, just really learning everything they can about these tight ends. So thank you so much. Yeah, for sure.

Again, the blood and guts, how tight ends save football. And we'll talk again soon, Tyler. Thanks, man. Thank you. how tight ends save football. And we'll talk again soon, Tyler. Thanks, man. Thank you. Okay, in an attempt to answer as many fans-only questions as I possibly can during the bye week, let's get in a few more here. This comes from at AU underscore M Schmidt.

Fans only, when do we become concerned with offensive play calling? After the bye week, he's learning, but lots of questionable calls on second and third in short yeah i think that play calling is such a difficult thing to judge from the outside i mean because we don't always know the process or what kevin o'connell was thinking and so we can only well, that doesn't look like that was right. Now I'll give you an example. The Vikings were backed up, I think on their second drive against Miami and they handed off, handed off, and then ran routes that all went down the field on the

next play that I think there were three receivers out and then two check down options. And all of the receivers down the field were not even into their routes by the time that Kirk Cousins was pressured. And it didn't really give him any opportunity to just check it down. Now, if you're going to run on the first two downs, you need to run a draw or throw a screen pass and punt the ball away with your God punter and flip the field and all that sort of stuff. I mean, that's not a wonderful strategy to be that conservative, but you can understand it, right? When the other team's offense isn't all that threatening and you're backed up against your

own end zone. Okay. That's totally fine. Just punt it away and play defense, get the ball back, try to flip the field. But instead you almost got Kirk Cousins sacked for a safety. And I thought that was entirely on the play call. And not at all on the quarterback. And of course, the pass protection as well.

But if your pass protection is a little bit spotty, and there's some mismatches there, on third and long, do you really want to run Justin Jefferson 30 yards down the field? And I think throughout the game, they did find ways to get the underneath passes going, get Jefferson the ball quickly and get him rolling. And of course, that wheel route was really brilliant. But I think that there are periods of time during games where I've said, I don't know that Kevin O'Connell has quite mastered this yet. In the same way that maybe we saw from Kevin Stefanski that just seemed to push all the right buttons,

or of course, Gary Kubiak, the legend. And I know that both of those guys were adhering to Mike Zimmer's demand to establish the run, but I think that both of them were such great play callers in their feel for the game, feel for the situation and so forth. And even though they were trying to adhere to what Zimmer did and they were running a lot on second down, which we all criticized. I think that throughout games, you really saw it. The right times to dial up a screen pass, the right times to hit something quick, the right times to go deep. And it seems to me that Kevin O'Connell is still feeling that all out.

And he has said that almost every week, like, well, you know, that one was on me or that's something I need to improve or I need to study. But yeah, out of the bye week, there's no real excuses. If this offense can't get going more. And by the way, I looked this up the first six games last year, the Vikings offense was on a per play basis, more successful and scored more points through the first six games than they've scored so far. That doesn't mean that they can't be better overall than last year's offense, which really petered out at the end of the year. But I do think that you can look at some situations. Philadelphia is one where they entirely forgot about Delvin Cook and running the football in the second half.

They treated a 17 point deficit like it was a 47 point deficit. Overall, I don't think it's been any kind of disaster, but I do think that there are times where I've scratched my head a little bit and with this offense and with a team that's in a position to go somewhere, we can't be scratching our head too many times after the bye week because, you know, the Vikings have dropped out of some of those easiest schedule graphics at the beginning of the year. Oh, they got the easiest schedule. Well, I saw PFF tweet out the 10 easiest schedules the rest of the way,

and the Vikings were not on the list. Now, these next two games, maybe, but then after that, there are a lot of teams where they're going to have to be sharper, I think, to get similar results. So, yes, I mean, I think that after the bye week, we can be a little more harsh about specific play calls and analyzing decisions and things like that. Because I think that it's been very fair and very reasonable to say, all right,

everybody's adjusting. Everybody's getting comfortable with each other. It's had its moments. It's had its opportunities where maybe cousins didn't find somebody. It's had its situations where maybe the play call wasn't great or even just the schematic um you know design or the game plan wasn't perfect or whatever and they've still gotten decent results but the expectation is now better results that everyone is comfortable and kevin o'connell is starting to understand better how to manage everything being the head coach communicating with players, calling plays, all the things that go into it. There's a reason why a lot of head coaches don't call plays,

because it's pretty chaotic to try to do that. And I think that's something that we'll be looking at a little bit in the second half of the season, especially if they hit some potholes. I think we might be talking about it unless of course their self scout during the bi-week really helps Kevin O'Connell and it's very sharp the rest of the way. I don't think it's been a huge problem. I wouldn't say, Oh my gosh, what a disaster. It's just that like everything else with this team, there's times where you go, Oh, I think that can be better in the future. All right, this question from at JTMN Skull. Fans, only question for you.

What can we point to as the reasons for why the offensive line is showing more success this year? Please pie chart this. Kevin O'Connell, Chris Cooper, Ingram not being as bad as Udo and Dozier. Experience of the four of the five guys Derrissaw playing on an island. Yeah, I think that, you know, the, the impression that we have is that the right guard situation has been better, but the numbers do not match up with that in pass blocking in run blocking. It seems like it's been totally fine. And I think the other guys were maybe disasters in every area. He also hasn't committed many penalties.

So last year, only Udo was the leader in penalties in the entire NFL. And so of course that was going to look really bad. Um, whereas Ingram has just been regularly beat and I'm pulling this up right now on PFF to give you the numbers on that. Um, but you know, beat. And I'm pulling this up right now on PFF to give you the numbers on that. But you scroll down and he is 53rd out of 60 guards that have played at least half the snaps in pass blocking. Now,

his run blocking is above average, but as far as total pressure is allowed, number one in the NFL, Ed Ingram has allowed more pressures than any other guard in the entire league. So that's not better. And I think that they showed some of their serious weaknesses. Still Garrett Bradbury played very well to start the season, certainly took a step back against Miami. And again, it's usually matchups, right? Miami overloaded the offensive line. They isolated some of these guys. They rushed five a lot as opposed to four, which made it much easier on the Dolphins to get those one-on-one matchups, to use some of the stunts and twists,

and to isolate Ingram and Bradbury as the guys that they wanted to go after. And they were very successful in doing that. The Vikings have to be concerned about that in the second half of the year. I think if it continues like this with the pass blocking, there has to be some consideration to playing Chris Reed. If Ingram continues to lead the entire NFL in pressures allowed, Chris Reed is an average pass blocker in his career and has played long sections of time to prove that. And so I think that there, there has to be some thought to it in the second half of the

year if this continues. But of course, like many other things, there's an opportunity to make progress. Why it is better than it was before? Christian Derrissaw, think about last year. They're starting Rashad Hill. They're starting Rashad Hill. And he was going up against what? Miles Garrett? That's a lot different than starting a guy who's been one of the best left tackles in the NFL. And, you know, Riley Reif for a long time was pretty good. And I respect Riley Reif. He was not as good as what Christian Derrissaw is doing. What Derrissaw is doing right now is emerging as one of the best players at his position in the entire league.

I think that Ezra Cleveland has had some really good games and some down games. Maybe the down games have been a little less noticeable than say, if you had Tom Compton there giving up a pressure on every play to Aaron Donald. And again, that's where it comes down to is usually it's the matchups that have determined it. But I think that Bradbury had a strong stretch and Cleveland has had some very good games. O'Neal is just a superstar at this point and Derrissaw looks like a star. Um, but is it, is it so much better that it can't be undone by a great defensive line and a very aggressive approach? I think what we saw last week is that it still can, uh, and that it still has its weaknesses, but maybe not quite the disaster where you're talking about moving a developmental

tackle into guard and saying like, oh yeah, this will work. So it's not that, but I think after last week, maybe we took a step back as far as keeping praise on the offensive line. All right. One more question here. This from at I am super B4. I'm not sure if it's a fan's only question or a mini segment during the buy, but I'd love to hear you go through the remaining schedules of the Vikings and Packers and see where we'd end up in the division. Okay. So picking every game is a lot.

That would, that's gonna take a lot of time and that should be probably a whole segment, but I can do this. You all know the Viking schedule. And if you don't, I'm sure you've got it on your refrigerator or something. And what we know about the Viking schedule is that it's getting more challenging as they, as they go along, going to Buffalo will be a great challenge. Dallas will have Dak Prescott. The giants are a team worth worrying about.

The jets have a very, very good defense. You want to talk about a team that could attack the interior. Hey, plus it's Robert Sala, the guy who demolished the Vikings in San Francisco as the defensive coordinator a couple of years ago. So there's games to be concerned about. I still think now after going five and one, you have to put the Vikings at 11 wins, or at least as a pretty fair and conservative estimate that things will get harder. Some things will regress, but you should still continue to win. And maybe you end up at 11, possibly 12. Okay. So let's set the bar at 11 though, right? Now let's go through the Packers and see what they've got. Cause I don't know their schedule as well. So they go to Washington this week. Let's just do W's and L's. Why not? I'm not busy. Are you busy?

Let's go through it. They will beat Washington and Taylor Heineke. Then they go to Buffalo and lose. At Detroit, they can win. Lose to Dallas. Tennessee at home. I'm going to say they win, but I also think Tennessee's not too bad. At Philadelphia, they lose.

They beat Chicago at soldier field. Let's go. They beat the Rams at Lambeau lose to Miami on the road, beat the Vikings at Lambeau and then beat Detroit at Lambeau. So they can win. That was seven wins the rest of the way. So they can win seven. I mean,

what essentially we come up with here is that they have some hard games, some really hard games at Buffalo, at Philly, against Dallas at home. Los Angeles might have their stuff together by then. And then the Vikings January 1st. So happy new year to everybody. And even then, even if I pick the ones that they really should win, I came up with 10. So green Bay is in order to have a, still a good season for them. They're going to have to beat some teams that they're not supposed to beat the way that

they've looked. And I'm not sure how they're doing that. I don't know that there's a rabbit to pull out of the hat. Rogers is not the same guy. He's already showing that he's disgruntled. He doesn't have a receiver that he trusts, and he's making it extremely clear that that's the case. So Green Bay could still make the playoffs with that schedule

because there are many winnable games. You know, two more against Detroit. That helps them a lot. Washington, Chicago. There's a lot of winnable games there that I think will get them into the post season, but the division is there for the Vikings taking it is right there. So I think that's the conclusion we come away with without, uh, doing joints W's and L's. But, you know, I think if you set the number at 11 for the Vikings, I think that gets it done for the division.

Very interesting stuff. Very interesting stuff. So more fans-only podcasts coming on the way through the weekend. So make sure that you're refreshing your app and keeping track. And I appreciate, again, Tyler Dunn for that really fun conversation. And you can always send your fans only questions to the purple insider website, purple insider.com.

The contact me love that. So many of you have taken advantage of that or tweet me, send me a DM at Matthew collar on Twitter, and I will get it there as well and get to as many as I possibly can. Thanks so much.