Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Vikings camp recap: Jefferson returns, Sando joins the show (Part 1)

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Matthew Coller talks about Justin Jefferson's return, the uncertain nature of Jalen Nailor's hand injury, their current receiver room and Mike Sando of The Athletic joins to talk about QB Tiers. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar, here. And guess what? Justin Jefferson was back on the Minnesota Vikings practice field today. A big day toward his return to the field. And we can stop maybe asking, when is Justin Jefferson coming back? What's going on there, et cetera, et cetera. He did not participate in everything today as he worked toward his return from a mild hamstring injury, which has been, I guess, maybe questionable about the word mild, because it seemed a little bit more than super mild, a little tiny mild.

What level of mild? Like when you get a hot sauce at a restaurant or a dip and it says mild, you assume that it's not going to have a whole lot. heat to it. This, but I guess medium is less than mild, right? For you people who know food, medium is less than my. Maybe this was more mild and not medium, but definitely not hot when it came to his hamstring strain. But whatever version of that is, whatever grade of it is, was not enough to keep him out for the entire training camp and he was back today. And what he was doing today was not a whole heck of a lot, but he was on the side field running routes, getting throws from Max Brosmer and Brett Rippin when those guys weren't getting some reps and taking part in the

walk-through portion, which was pretty much the most of the practice today. It was not an intense practice. This is not one that we can break down every single J.J. McCarthy throw, although I do think, oh, it is mild as less than medium, huh? Okay. So maybe this was medium. This was medium and maybe not mild, but they had expected it previously to be mild. I don't know. Whatever it was, it kept him out, I think 25 days, which is fairly significant, but I also totally respect the Vikings not wanting him to put him out there for joint practices, where Justin Jefferson is known to compete like a madman. And you would not want him to further injure a hamstring. because of that. So we did talk to Justin Jefferson afterward, and I would have audio of that for you, except for thank you to MSP for firing off every single airplane, right as Justin Jefferson was talking. But the main quotes from Jefferson were about, one about J.J. McCarthy

and one about Jordan Addison that popped out to me. He said about JJ that after every play, those guys talk to each other during this camp that after almost every single rep he was coming over and you can confirm having been standing there that they would walk over and have a conversation look at the screen so he's had a lot of discussion with an NFL player in Jefferson who has a ton of experience facing just about every defense every defensive player every look everything that Kevin O'Connell can dial up and so even if they were not able to have the same sort of chemistry as you would get out of playing together every single rep. That was the next best thing, is a ton of discussion between McCarthy and Justin Jefferson.

And he said of McCarthy, he's still learning, he's still trying to figure out the offense, but it was a great period to learn what he was thinking. So at very least, they were able to connect on a communication level to see how J.J. McCarthy watches a play, lets things develop and then remembers it in his brain to have the discussion about it with Justin Jefferson. But at least the fact that he's getting back on the field by August 18th, they've got a couple more practices. Maybe he starts to ramp it up. And then they will have the entire period of two weeks to get ready for week one, which I would assume that Jefferson is going to be a full participant in those practices starting next week.

and look, it's not ideal that he didn't have Jefferson. At least he had someone who could mildly simulate or mediumly simulate what Justin Jefferson does in Jordan Addison. And that was another thing that Jefferson talked about when he was asked about what he thought of Jordan Addison's camp. He said fantastic. And he said that he loved asking the fact that Addison was asking him questions. And he kind of joked that he was basically like the,

you know, what would you call it? He was kind of like the coach Justin on the sideline for the receivers to come over and have conversations with him. He was extremely engaged in these practices, even throwing warmups to his wide receivers and so forth. And I think that he's absolutely right when it comes to Jordan Addison's training camp that he has taken it to a different level this year, which is why it's unfortunate that Addison is suspended for. for three games. And in some ways, I get it because of the legal system and the wheels of justice turning slowly in the California courts. At the same time, it feels outdated. It feels like this should have been last year. And now it's going to be this year after an entire year

of Jordan Addison not having any issues. And he's kind of ramped up and ready to go to start the season. And then he has to serve that three game suspension, which of course, he very much earned with his decisions behind the wheel. But nonetheless, for the Vikings offense, the way that he's been playing in training camp would suggest a big season is on the way for Jordan Addison. And then you have to get that stoppage. But Jefferson on the way back, which at least you don't have to start hovering your hand over a panic button.

Because as we went on and on and on, I started thinking, like, are we getting closer here to this happening? and like when is he going to get out there because it's getting late early and if the answer wasn't today then I would have really wondered is week one in jeopardy but nothing Jefferson said today

made me think that there's any chance that he's going to be delayed for the preparation for week one and as much as I there's a part of me that wants to be like I don't know guys this could be a problem they didn't get to practice together

it's just in Jefferson and whatever obstacle is thrown in front of him, whether it's all sorts of different quarterbacks throughout his career, whether it was Mullins, whether it was getting the most out of Sam Darnold or whatever, he's always found a way to be the best version of Justin Jefferson. So you give him a lot more benefit of the doubt that he can get ready in just a couple of weeks than pretty much anybody else. But I did want to bring you what Kevin O'Connell said about the ramp up for Justin Jefferson. I don't think it'll change his routine once he's kind of

through this period of time where we let him get his football legs back underneath him. He's done such a good job with building his strength and doing the work with the medical team and the strength team that I think he probably feels like he's pretty darn close and ready to go. But we've got this time leading into, I think, three weeks from today. So we've got a little bit of time now to kind of work him back in, continue to build his reps up here as we go. and it coincides with the schedule with how we handle this week,

you know, being a pretty heavy week for, you know, that first group of guys that we can slowly integrate them back in. You'll see them doing some work with the group, and then you'll see them doing some work while practice is going on, you know, maybe, you know, catching more balls and throwing, you know, throwing some more routes and just getting a certain amount of workload in for today and then we'll worry about tomorrow. And it's really a day to time as we ramp them up.

So there you go on Justin Jefferson getting ramped up. and the next two practices, my expectation, will be ones that we can come in and talk about how everybody performed in full pads and things like that. They were running some 11 on 11s, but when it's shells at this point in the game, I don't like to use that as much of the evaluation because they've been in pads. They've had joint practices. They've had preseason games. So if they're running a practice in shells, and yeah, I mean, J.J. McCarthy threw an

interception to Blake Cashman today, but I mean, what are we really making? of that when it's just a shell practice. So I wasn't tracking every single throw today. It was more I was keeping an eye on the wide receiver situation, which is quite interesting and was the other thing I wanted to talk about. And also I have Mike Sandel of the athletic conversation that we had yesterday or I guess it was the other day and I want to bring you that. I think it must have been the same.

Was it Friday? It was one of the joint practice that. No, it must have been Thursday. We recorded, but I didn't want to. it before the preseason game. So anyway, you'll hear from Mike Sando on his QB Tiers article for The Athletic in just a little bit. And I'll get to your question shortly as well. But on the matter of Jalen Naylor and his health, O'Connell was asked about where Naylor stands in his return because he got hurt in the joint practices, some sort of hand or wrist injury for Naylor. And

at this time of year, as O'Connell went on to remind us, they don't have to put out an injury report. And it sounds a little bit from what he's talking about with Naylor, like I'm not really sure where it stands. Or at least that's my feeling is it sounds a little suspicious as in maybe it could impact week one, maybe not. It wasn't really very precise in his analysis of Jalen Naylor's entry. So here's KOC. Is Jalen Naylor still testing in the testing? Yeah, he's

you know, he's, you know, we're more than likely going to hold him, you know, out for now. He's kind of figuring out what the best plan of action for return to play will be, but do feel good about, you know, where we're at with that. And, you know, I think as we roll here, you know, it's going to continue to give

some, us answers on the rest of that room. And we got some more information in the game. We had some more information in the joint practices, even when Jalen was out there. So we'll just continue to kind of build that together. But no, I think, you know, hopefully, you know, I would consider it week to week at this point, knowing we've got three weeks out from that opener that we can ramp them back up. But the good thing is he'll be able to stay in great shape. So there was KOC.

I mean, he didn't say that he won't be out there week one, but he also didn't say that everything is fine. And he said, you know, they're looking at options and ramping him up. and a lot of vague language there from Kevin O'Connell on Jalen Naylor. But here was my thought walking out of practice today because I also saw, and we'll see if we get an update on this, J. Sean Jones was walking with a trainer back into the building. I mean, they are kind of taking hits left and right in this wide receiver group. So today, as J.J. McCarthy's out there with the ones, and this is the thing that I saw that made me think, okay, it's finally time to pull this.

lever, as far as my opinions go, it was Tim Jones taking first team reps today. Now, not all of them. I mean, there was the other guys that were out there as well that have been taking them Lucky Jackson and so forth. But Tim Jones has been on the third team for the entire offseason. He's been practicing when Max Brosmer's out there. Those two have formed a pretty good connection. And Jones played well in the preseason game. He's played a the NFL before. He has 17 career catches, but Tim Jones is really a special teamer type. He is not the type of wide receiver who you want out there running a bunch of routes and catching a bunch of passes. I think he can do it a little bit. He had three receptions last year for

the Jacksonville Jaguars, which kind of tells you where he's at with that. And because of the number of players who are injured in this receiving group, Moore's out for the season. Jefferson's not back yet. Now J. Sean Jones goes into the facility with some type of ailment and you're running Tim Jones out there. And that's where I decided it's time to call for it. I'm not just going to say maybe I'd be okay with it. I'm going to call for it. I think it's time to trade for Adam Thielen. Yep. I'm going there. I am going there, folks. I think it's time. And you know, the thing about the trade for Adam Thielen idea. So here's what I want to know from you is let's say, the Vikings trade for Adam Thielen comment section tell me what would you give up what would

you give up if I told you if I just came on here in my first words where the Vikings traded for Adam Thielen what would you expect the return to be if they decided to do that I'll give you mind but first I want to tell you why I think that it makes more sense than probably anybody else that we can come up with and I'm seeing your names in the you know the thrown out Gabe Davis, thrown out Tyler Bore. Like, these guys haven't been good in a while. But, you know, Adam Thielen has actually been pretty good the last couple years in Carolina. It's just why would anybody notice or care because it's Carolina and they haven't been very good over the last couple of seasons.

But when you go back to last year for Thielen, let me call up his regular season stats here. Last year, he had 48 catches in 10 games for 600. 115 yards. That's 12.8 yards a catch, five touchdowns. The year before, he had 103 catches. And both years, he's really been a slot receiver for them. So he has played in more of a depth type role. And I mean, if you're going to tell me that anybody else on your lists has been as good as Thielen over the last couple of years and would be able to step in faster than Adam Thielen, I want to know. who that is. Like, what person is that? Is that Amari Cooper? Can Amari Cooper get there faster than

Adam Thielen when it comes to ramping up? Has Amari Cooper been better recently because he was pretty bad with Buffalo and Cleveland last year? Gabe Davis, two years ago, he was okay, kind of a deep threat. Aldrich Robinson is a great, a great pull. Maybe if you want to throw a Taj sharp out there or somebody like that, Kendall Wright. the number of different guys that they have tried in depth, wide receiving roles over the years is in the high numbers. But, you know, Josh Doxon maybe is a good answer to this question as well. I mean, there's just not a lot of very good options. And I was trying to come up with some for, I did a 53 last night. And I'll tell you about my most like finger quote

controversial decision on the 53 last night. But I was trying to look for. other options for the Vikings and Amari Cooper was obviously the best one with the best track record but I couldn't find too many great option maybe they have somebody in mind in the league that would be better than trading

for Adam Thielen but I'm struggling to come up with one and at this point after losing Rondale Moore and having Lucky Jackson drop two passes and I know it's just a preseason game but when you got to go out there and this is your pressure moment and you drop two that are right

in your hands, and then he had a drop in joint practices as well, it's pretty hard to make the argument, oh, yeah, like, you should feel great about this guy as your wide receiver who's going to have to play. Like, we know that Josh Oliver is going to play a ton. And, I mean, CJ Ham's been banged up. I don't know what his situation is right now. So they haven't been running a lot of fullback stuff. Josh Oliver, you better be really ready to play 60 snaps. The tight end three situation is not particularly good. Like early on, they're going to lean on that two tight end personnel. When they come out for seven on sevens, they got a lot of that going with him and

T.J. Hawkinson and then Addison and whoever is pretending to be Addison, well, Jefferson is sideline. I mean, it's just a little bit, a little bit funky there, the way it looks in practice right now. And I feel like after watching J. Sean Jones walk off the field today, after seeing what the receivers have brought to the table. it's just time to hit the button, pull the lever and bring in somebody else as in similar to the Stefan Gilmore thing. It would be kind of just like that. Only you'd have to make a trade

as opposed to making a signing, but somebody that everybody thinks is kind of washed, but can at least bring you an average level of play. I mean, he gave, if you traded for Adam Thielen and he gave you 10 games and 40 catches because he was filling in for Addison the first few games and then he's a rotational player after that. I mean, that's a pretty good acquisition, but what would you give up? For me, it is probably right around the ballpark of what Rob said, a fifth or a sixth. Lequan Treadwell, that's a good. David is also thrown out there a fifth or a sixth.

Rob is talking about a fifth conditional pick for Cam Robinson. That would be a pretty good comparison. That's exactly where I stand. I mean, with somebody like feeling, and the. reason and well somebody asked i'm sorry uh let me see who asked uh oh why would carolina so brand uh why would carolina give him up and that was my initial thought as well my initial thought going into this was hey you know is carolina really going to give up adam theelin they need Bryce young they need the locker room they need uh you guys who are reliable and can catch passes have

great hands. I mean, he caught 77% of passes last year. Adam Thielen's hands are never going to slump. So why would they give him up? And I think the answer is when you look at that wide receiver room for the Panthers, it's a lot of younger guys. And it's a younger team that I think is a little more on the rise. So you've got McMillan, you've got Leggett, you've got Coker. Like, these are guys that they like and they like where they're going with the young quarterback, young receivers. And I don't think this version of the Panthers is really there yet as far as competing for a championship. So if you can get some draft capital for a guy that maybe you weren't going to use as much because you want to lean on those young wide receivers and figure out what you

have, that would make sense for the Panthers to move Adam Thielen. And just reading some of the reports from Carolina and how their practices have gone. Mike Kay is a really good reporter down there in Carolina, been kind of keeping an eye on his coverage. Like, is it possible, Mike? And I think it is. I think it is possible that they would consider offers for Adam Thieland. And, you know, VA Viking, he doesn't, he doesn't have to reinvent himself as much as just contribute, just run the routes he's supposed to run and just get in the right

position to make catches for what, you know, underneath stuff, whatever it might be. I mean, they have no one that is reliable right now. And I would actually throw Jalen Naylor into the category of a guy who just wasn't, wasn't all that, you know, effective last year and has not been all that effective during camp. And Dr. Smug, being a little smug here with your anti-Thieland, he's not worth the squeeze. I mean, have you looked, though? Like, have you looked at what Adam Thielen has done the last two years for Carolina? I mean, 48 catches last year, 615 yards, five touchdowns, and the year before, 103 catches,

his percentage for receiving percentage when, you know, when targeted is over 75%. I mean, the last two years, Carolina quarterbacks have over 100 quarterback rating throwing to Adam Thielen. He has hardly been awful. I mean, and also when you're talking about the squeeze, well, what's the squeeze? I mean, if the squeeze is a fifth round draft. pick that's conditional and it's based on who knows what maybe it's based on a number of catches maybe it's based on how far the vikings go like hey if they reach the nfc championship the fifth turns into a fourth or if you know whatever it might be uh you can put stuff like that in there and make it a conditional type of fifth round pick or if he plays x number of snaps or however you

want to do it with adam thielin but i would feel much safer with thelan on the field with Justin Jefferson than I would, and who knows about Naylor's situation, but I would feel even better with Thelan on the field than Jalen Naylor at this point, because he already was having some problems catching the football, and now he's got a hand or wrist injury. Like, that doesn't really bode well for him either,

that I think Naylor is kind of in the perfect position as a wide receiver three who runs deep routes. It's kind of like a Marquez-Veldes Scantling, where, you know, he runs deep and occasionally makes a couple of big plays. But other than that, he really is running a lot of clear-out routes for Justin Jefferson. Yeah, I know what you mean by the squeeze. And his, I think his salary is pretty manageable, but I guess you'd have to look that up. When it comes to the draft pick, but you're talking about a fifth round draft pick.

I mean, this year is the type of year where you trade a fifth round draft pick for someone who can help you as much as possible. And I think what this is giving you, and you have to remember that the veteran player that they were bringing in to be receiving depth was Rondale Moore. And I know Lucky Jackson was getting more reps, but I think there was a better chance that Rondale Moore would have started to work his way in around this time of year. But then he ends up getting hurt for the season and he's out for the year. So you don't have that guy. You don't have that fallback type of role player. where as, you know, somebody like Adam Thieland could be that guy. So, you know, I do think, well, look, I mean, when it comes to their actual draft picks,

maybe you have to make it a fourth conditional or something like that if they don't have the fifth or the sixth, which, yeah, I know you always have to check with Vikings draft picks. What are they got? Vikings draft picks 2026 because Quasi loves to trade them. so okay so call it this so they don't have they don't have a fifth uh because they're expecting yeah okay so they're supposed to maybe get those for comp picks how about then just for the logistics of making it work how about we call it a conditional fourth round pick uh you could give up a fourth round pick and get the one is that worth it i think for a year like this i think it is that might be stretching it out a little bit to a fourth round

pick. It might be a little bit much. But, you know, I mean, Scott says done mortgaging the future. I mean, are you mortgaging the future giving up a fourth or a fifth round pick? Does that really mortgage the future? I don't think day three picks mortgage the future. We're not talking about giving up a third. We're not talking about giving up a day one pick, a first round pick. This is somebody who can still play wide receiver in the NFL can still catch 77% of the throws that came his way, his quarterback with over a hundred quarterback rating when getting targets and knows Kevin O'Connell's offense. It's pretty hard to learn on the fly for any other wide receiver you're going to bring in. And a lot of times we don't see this be very successful. We just don't.

I mean, Amari Cooper for the bills last year, he was supposed to be a game changer for them, never got on the same page with their offense. I think he got banged up. And then that was just kind of it for Amari Cooper. It's hard to bring in wide. wide receivers at the last minute. But in this case, Adam Feeleyn would be able to have that fundamental, foundational knowledge of playing here for at least, you know,

the 2022 season and have a sense for what Kevin O'Connell's offense would be. So I am into it, even though, yeah, I guess that makes it a little harder. I think it's worth a fifth, but if they only have a fourth, then I think that that's, when you're talking day three picks and you're in the mode of winning

as many games as you possibly can, and also giving J.J. McCarthy the best opportunity to succeed because you have to also along the way here, get a sense for how good J.J. McCarthy is. And if you're talking about, you know, not having a number two wide receiver who you can rely on and it's really only leaning on Justin Jefferson and then the backfield and tight ends, that's not easy when you have some games that you have to win right out of the gate. And once I saw Tim Jones taking first team reps, it's like, okay, that is going to be pretty difficult to succeed if that's somebody who's going to be your number one wide receiver or your number two wide receiver behind Justin Jefferson. That's going to make it a little tricky. Or if it's lucky Jackson, you're not sure about him catch a passes or you guys are talking about Ty Felton.

I still think that Felton is a guy that has to develop. and could he go in there right now and maybe be okay and make a couple plays? Yes. And I think he had a really good preseason game from a receiving perspective. At the same time, I'm not sure that he is as. Brains as you didn't know, we had someone named Tim Jones. Well, I guess, you know, you got to watch closer when it comes to the third, fourth quarters of the preseason games.

But yeah, I mean, Tim Jones. is just a guy who is been a special teamer, and I think that that's been a good role for him in the NFL, but he's committed a couple penalties. He's made a few catches. He's definitely made a few catches against number three type players, but as far as actually being on the real NFL field, 17 career catches, and he's the most experienced guy out there.

With Felton, I'm just going to keep saying, I need to see him develop more, and that's okay. He was the last pick of the third round. I mean, if the last pick of the third round doesn't step right in and become a superstar, that doesn't mean he's a bust, guys. I mean, you remember KJ. Osborne was a fifth round draft pick, and it took him some time to develop before he could get in there. And maybe, you know, Alan Robinson is another name to throw out,

but when's the last time Alan Robinson was even serviceable? I guess the other debate for someone who you could actually see understanding the offense pretty quick and getting into it, and performing at fairly high level is O'Dell Beckham Jr. Do you want that? Like, do you want that? I don't want to call it a circus, but, you know, do you want the celebrity of O'Dell Beckham Jr

when you just need him to kind of fit in? That I don't know, because does he still view himself as somebody who should be getting 10 targets a game like he used to? Or could he be okay with two targets? That's another question. Is someone like Osborne going to end up, on the market. Are there other players? I can look at the, the names that I came up with last night are just not inspiring for my 53 man article for wide receiver. Kendrick Bourne was one of them.

I'll read them to you. Not inspiring. Tyler Boyd, Jameson Crowder, McColl Hardman might get cut. Trey Palmer might get cut. Elijah Moore from Buffalo. Josh Reynolds could get cut. I mean, does that make anybody excited because that does not make me all that excited. And I agree, Steve, that I would be a little bit concerned about Odell Beckham just as far as what comes along with him. I don't think a whole lot comes along with Adam Thielen. And somebody asked if they left on bad terms. I didn't think so. I mean, Adam Thielen is a competitor. And I'm sure that when the Vikings didn't give him the offer that he wanted, he was probably a little offended.

At the same time, if you're traded here, you're going to play. And Adam Thielen can still play, at least according to his last two seasons, where he played the entire season in 23, missed some time last year, still played double-digit games, and was an effective, efficient receiver when they had him. So I think that's the best option. If you have to give up a fourth, that is kind of tough, that's a little bit more than I would want to.

I would rather give up a fifth or a sixth. But as was pointed out, they have already done that for other veteran players. But you know, you think about it last year. I mean, wasn't it worth it though? Like Cam Robinson,

I know at the end of the day, Cam Robinson got steamrolled against the L.A. Rams. But he certainly played a big role in them getting to where they were at and having a chance. And even, you know, Cam Acres giving up the late round pick. I mean, is there a big difference? And this is a quacy thing, and I tend to agree with it.

Is there a big difference between the fifth round or the sixth round pick, the late day three pick, even a fourth rounder and getting five of the best undrafted free agents? So is there a big gap between that? I'm not so sure that there is. Maybe a fourth, you know, seems like too much to some of you, a shifty. And I get it. I know, fourth is where I teeter because fourth makes me go like, oh, that, that is. is a pick that you kind of expect, but can we go through Vikings fourth round picks?

Let me see here. I'm going to call up draft history.com, and we could take a look at Vikings fourth round picks. Let's see, draft history. Let's see. Let's see what we got for Vikings fourth round picks because my recollection of Vikings' fourth round picks is that they have not been particularly great ever. And I know, like, a lot of people like to point out different. draft picks that haven't gone well for Quasi, but I don't remember a lot of them going all that

well for Rick Spielman in the fourth round. So this is just to make the point about Adam Thielen and what he could bring to the offense right away as they are really struggling. And I mean, this has to do with Naylor's injury as well. If Naylor was 100% and didn't get banged up and Rondale Moore was there, I probably would have said, okay, yes, David, I'm aware Stefan Diggs was in the fifth. That is, that is true. That is true. Every once in a while. Did you know Tom Brady was drafted?

You're not going to believe this. You guys aren't going to believe this. Tom Brady was a sixth round pick. So you should probably keep all of your sixth because it could be the next Tom Brady. I'm not so sure that that logic works out. Let me get back to the fourth round picks of recent memory. Jay Ward. He's a contributor, I guess.

A Caleb Evans. let's see Kenne Wong Wu Okay, Cambine him Turned out to be a good player Kenne Wong was a good kick returner We got DJ Wanam He played James Lynch

Troy Dye These are some guys Drew Samia that didn't go too good Jalen Holmes Ben Gideon Jaliel Johnson These are fourth round draft picks Willie Beavers That one didn't go so good

TJ Clemmings That one didn't go so good Gerald Hodges. He played in the league for a while. Hey, Jarius Wright. Jarius Wright and Red Ellison. Those are fourth round picks. Greg Childs, that didn't work out so good.

The injury there. Yeah, you get my point, right? Like the fourth round picks, they're great and everybody loves them. And I am absolutely sure that on the third day of the draft, everyone will say, what was Quasi doing giving up that third round pick for Thielen? He only caught 30.

seven balls and help them to the NFC championship or something. Maybe. But, you know, it's a boring day three for the draft. But if you can trade picks that turn into Jalen Holmes and James Lynch and Jay Ward for a guy who's going to give you real receptions in real life and has good hands and can help your young quarterback compete for, you know, the NFC North this year, I think I'm willing to do that. I think I'm willing to do that. They're just, that's the world that they're living in right now.

And I think it's a little bit mythological when we talk about, I mean, think about like the Green Bay Packers. What have you heard about the Green Bay Packers for the last two years? The Packers are the youngest team in the league. They are so young. Do you guys even understand how young? I don't think you do. They're so young.

You don't even understand how young they are. And what does that, what does that mean? I mean, it's great. great everyone wants a young team everyone wants a bunch of superstars on rookie contracts and that's that's wonderful if you can do what detroit did and draft a bunch of guys that absolutely crushed it and you know were even guys that they shouldn't have drafted where they picked them turned out to be good a tight end or running back a linebacker and they all became great players and all that that's wonderful but a lot of the time they turn into james lynch and dj

want them where it's okay that guy can play in the league but is that really replaceable it probably is and you can find that in an undrafted free agent you could find that in an xFL guy like jalen redmond you can find as someone to be your fourth round type of draft pick those guys if you're sort of clever you can get but when it comes to someone like adam theelin a real legitimate proven wide receiver it's much harder to do so that's where i stand on that i know that it does say sound a little bit like cheesy nostalgia for Thielen. It really isn't. In my case, it's very much, look at those numbers of what he did the last two years, catch percentage above 75 percent, played a lot in the slot, helped out Bryce Young last year, kind of turned

things around in the second half of the year, was reliable for a young quarterback that seems like something that the Vikings could use. If it's not him, I think it has to be someone else. Like that's my first choice would be to give up a third round draft pick. I'm sorry, not third round, fourth round draft pick, day three for a proven player who can help you throughout the season. And also another part of this is the trust for Naylor. He's just, he's had a lot of drops during this training camp. And even if he comes back, you're talking about missing time here leading up to the start of the season where he's supposed to play a different role than he normally would play with a different receiver. coming in back into camp in Jefferson and Addison being the one out there's just a lot you're

asking of him you'd like to have one more potential option outside of him whether it's I'm making the case for Thielen because it makes sense to me when I look at the other guys it's just man that's tough you know when you draft poorly your depth suffers well here's what I'd like to know is first of all is does this team have bad depth I actually don't think that this team has bad depth. We can go position by position. They've got good depth at running back. On the offensive line, they've got a guy who played 17 games last year as a backup in Blake Brandel. Justin School has been a starter before.

Another two development draft picks that they've had that have at least looked like guys who can play in the league in Juergens and Walter Rouse. On the defensive line, they're very deep with Dallas Turner. Gabe Murphy's had a great camp. I think Bo Richter has even showed up, even at the cornerback position, Zemaya Vaughn. Now, I don't like the way that Mackay Blackman has played in training camp and preseason, but it's still a third round draft pick who, if someone gets hurt, has shown before he can play. I mean, it feels to me like this roster has a good amount of depth.

But if you take away the guy, Rondale Moore, who they signed to be depth because of a random, terrible play. Just he was looking like he was coming along and then you just have this random thing happened to him. I mean, I don't know what was like that's football. That happens sometimes. So that takes off some depth. A suspension. Now, normally they have good wide receiver depth when Jalen Naylor is your third, but then you have this suspension. So now you're down, your fourth and your second.

Tell me what team I would like you to just go through and tell me what team who's fourth or fifth or sixth wide receiver. you're like that guy's the man he's awesome i wish he was our guy like how many there's there's not that many you know what every team has they have tie felons who they are developing they have lucky jacks who have been on the practice well that's what every single team has when it comes to their fourth fifth sixth wide receiver uh yet you're right the texans do have but they don't the texans also have two rookies that they're relying on like those aren't proven players those are guys you might like that I like, but they're not proven players. So I think every single team, if you were to lose your number two and your number four

wide receiver, would be looking around trying to find somebody else. And, you know, maybe they will end up looking at Ty Felton and saying, like, hey, you're, you're the guy and you're going to have to do this. Or maybe there's a competition in the third preseason game. I mean, O'Connell had a very interesting. way of framing it he was talking about how well you know we like all these guys for a reason they're all here for a reason but you know we're still going to have to kind of figure out who's going to emerge at that position which doesn't sound super promising uh braxton barrios

is a good name there's a there's a bunch of guys who are going to get uh that are going to get cut and that'll be out there that they could look at i think k j osborne might be one of them Kendrick Bourne might be one of them. The reason the Thielen thing makes the most sense to me is that they won't cut him. They'll just keep him unless you give them something. Like they're not, I don't think that they're going to release Adam Thielen that he's losing a battle so badly. I just think it's possible because of their depth chart and because the Vikings might be in a position where they're a little bit desperate to get somebody to come in that they could actually rely on. If you throw me all these names, I mean, they haven't played as well as Thielen recently.

And they don't have any familiarity with the Vikings, like a Braxton Barrios. I mean, he hasn't played well. I mean, recently, has he? Like, I don't think so. I haven't heard his name pop up too often. Somebody like Kendrick Bourne, you know, they sign him. And it hasn't worked all that well. You know, Cordero Patterson, I know that you guys have brought up Cordero Patterson a couple of times.

but I'm certain that Pittsburgh released Cordero Patterson because he just doesn't have the juice anymore that he used to have. So, you know, Dante Pettis, like these are not options that you can point to last year and say, look how he played, averaging five catches a game and getting 13 yards a catch and catching 70-something percent. So that's where Adam Thielen has been recently,

and that's why I'm making the argument. KJ. Osborne, he had a really brutal, year last year. I mean, he couldn't get on the field for New England and they had a pretty pretty rough receiver room. So none of these ideas are as good. I mean, Gabe Davis might be a guy to take a look, you know, Frank. I, I think that makes sense with the role that you'd be looking for. But Gabe Davis, I mean, played pretty poorly last year. Brandon Powell, I think with Brandon Powell, if they wanted Brandon Powell, he would be here. I like Brandon Powell as a guy who could just go back can catch punts.

I don't know if they're going to go with Miles Price, if they want Felton to do that, if Silas Bolden is still even in that conversation. Gabe Davis was good at least two years ago, but we can say that Thielen was good last year. And he wasn't healthy for the entire season, but at least for 10 games, if he gave you 10 games and gave you 30 catches,

I mean, is that worth it for this team that really just needs somebody to, add something to the mix that is reliable. That's, that's all we're looking for here in this discussion. You guys are bringing up all these receivers and I'm going, is that guy reliable? Is that guy reliable? I probably not. I did see that Gabe Davis was trying out with the Steelers today. Also probably says quite a bit that he was, Gabe Davis was having to work out for somebody to even make his case, right? About where he's at health wise. Yes, Thielen and JJ did work out together. I think it was Alec Ossmiss from KSTP, who had a conversation with Thielen about that.

And if you're Thielen and you feel like you're, and some of you brought this up, like, what do you want to come back and that kind of thing? Well, I mean, when you talk about the situation, you get to 30-something years old and the team wants to play younger wide receivers and develop them. Whereas Adam Thielen is in his 30s and wants to win, why not come back and do it? here. So I'm in. I've decided that I'm in. And yeah, I agree with you guys that the right price is a fifth or a sixth round draft pick. They don't have those draft picks because they gave them away. It looks like, you know, for you comp pick freaks that they will get some of those back

after letting certain guys go this year in free agency. So they'll eventually get them. But, you know, when it comes to what they would have to give up right now, it's probably a fourth would have to be that conversation and maybe there is a fourth can turn into something or maybe you get a sixth back like what if it was this what if it was a fourth of fourth for feeling and a sixth you get a day three pick back there's not a huge gap between any of those days or undrafted free agents i don't think that's too bad uh let me look up i look i love over the cap dot com but i always cringe when i have to go there during the show because it melts the computer. So I'm going to look up Thielen's contract as fast as possible before,

because, you know, over the cap is a huge, huge website. So right now, the cap number for Thielen is $10 million. And if Carolina trades him, they take on $5 million hit. And he's in the last year of his contract. So, you know, that doesn't sound unworkable. So we'll see. We will see if the Vikings go out and get somebody else. But the way that it sounded to me from Kevin O'Connell was somebody show me something here because in the last game, they didn't really do it. It was actually Tim Jones that ended up doing the most. And that's probably why he was getting some first team reps.

So anyway, well, I appreciate that conversation and all the names that you guys dug up. But also earlier this week, or I guess it was late last week, I got together with Mike Sando of the athletic to talk about the quarterback tiers article and what people had to say around the league to Mike Sando about J.J. McCarthy. So before I, you know, before I do that, yeah, yeah, Brands says love a website that makes your computer sound like it's going to take off into the stratosphere. Well, look, I mean, over thecap.com, you can never give it enough credit. You can never give Jason Fitzgerald, the founder of that website, enough credit. He has completely changed how we view football. But that requires a lot of data that goes into that website. So the loading process can be a little bit tedious there.

But it's, I mean, just the way we all analyze players, contracts, front offices. I mean, it's been incredible. But yeah, if they make the trade and it ultimately ends up the Panthers. And look, I was just peering at this, not working it out completely. If they keep five and the Vikings have to take five, like that's, that's totally fine. A player trade, Mr. Mayor is an interesting idea. But who would you want to trade? Would it be a defensive player?

Because I think Carolina still needs defense. But who are you trading? Are you trading Mackay Blackman? That name comes to mind. Wouldn't want to trade any. But even with Blackman. Like, he just hasn't had a great camp, but I would prefer that he is depth if something goes wrong with Okuda or Isaiah Rogers or Byron Murphy rather than Zamea Vaughn or Dwight McLeather and two guys who basically haven't even been out there. So, I don't know.

I don't know which player. You'd have to give me which player you think would make sense to make a trade because, yeah, I mean, Dwight McClother. leathern would be a throw-in it would be if you were trying to give them you know a later pick or something and you're trying to toss him in there but i mean that's somebody that usually that caliber of player cornerback six sam how is a funny answer sam how is a is a very funny in fact there's probably a lot of there's probably a lot of funny answers there of like hey which player could they give him like how about corey vedvick or you know how about matt while i don't know there's a there's a lot of random names you could go with there and feel free to throw those in there.

But so I wanted to bring you the conversation with Mike Sando, but I also wanted to mention before I bring you that, that the conversation is a little bit, I would say, how do I put this? Like, we went back and forth a little bit with the J.J. McCarthy situation and what coaches had to say. So I just want to say first that it is a friendly back and forth because I have the utmost respect for Sando. And he's one of those guys that as a football journalist, you know, I've read for so long and he has so many contacts. And he's somebody that I look up to and is a friend of the show. So keep that in mind because we kind of get into it a little bit in this interview going back and forth about J.J. McCarthy and the Vikings off season and making that decision. But so I wanted to say that first that Mike and I are still very much on good terms here. But there's a little bit of, there's a little bit of a debate, I would say in this.

interview. So here is myself and Mike Sando from the Athletic. All right, we welcome into the show from the athletic with his legendary QB Tiers article out this week. Mike Sando, welcome back to the show, my friend, I've been pouring through this, pouring through past data sets of QB tears. And I've got a lot to chat with you about, especially about J.J. McCarthy. How's your week, man? This is like your 473 appearance, I think. It is. They're all a little different. I think I've learned as much as anybody else does off of these because, you know, you get so close to it that you don't really know what, you know, people that aren't as close to it see. They look at it differently. And especially in each market, there's different things, too. So we'll have fun with this one. J.J. McCarthy's interesting just because he hasn't played. You know, and usually, there's no rookies in this thing, but usually you get to your second year, you've got three games like Michael Pennings. We got something to go off of. We got nothing. We got nothing. We got. We got. got nothing for jj but i put him in there just because i wanted to hear what people had to say it wasn't the beefiest section but we can go wherever you want with it well yeah let's start there with the takes

from some of the coaches and general managers former general managers that you spoke to i think every single comment from somebody in the league i kind of went yeah really uh they're you know they start by you know talking about his injury from last year and wondering if he might be injury prone which is kind of an odd one because it was just a meniscus that you have repaired and that happens to a lot of people and like that's his only injury that I could remember him having and then he had a shoulder he had a shoulder in college right okay it did not require surgery but they thought it was there was a report initially he was going to need surgery on the shoulder and then he didn't have it right okay so he was banged up that was around the time of that Penn State game right where he threw like four passes right yeah yeah yeah yeah I don't think there's a huge uh you know he does I don't to know that that was the number one concern of him coming in. Right. And then, you know, there's another comment that says he's slight, which was probably true like six months ago when he was recovering, but now he's probably at 220 pounds. So I thought, okay, well, that doesn't seem to be a big concern. But there's one that really pops out to me as one where I thought,

well, this is interesting because I think a lot of people do think this. A head coach told you, I just don't hear slam dunk stuff out of there, which that one is the one I would probably contest the most because this team. Really? Yes, because this team won 14 games last year and they moved on from their starting quarterback that won 14 games. And then a Hall of Famer came to Kevin O'Connell and said, please sign me and let me play for you. And they said, no, we're going with J.J. McCarthy. I mean, I don't. Yeah. So what more evidence do you need for a slam dunk? So do you think they were unanimous in deciding to move on from Donald that the whole building wanted to do that? There's no way,

right? In any organization, there'd be no way. That's true. I mean, I don't think any organization agrees 100% on anything, but I also don't think that there's a democracy in the Vikings building when it comes to what to do at the quarterback position. I think that that's more of some other tocracy, which would be Kevin O'Connell makes that call along with Quasi Adafo Mensa and the ownership. But I mean, no, there was there was a lot of discussion in the off season. So I get I get where that coaches would generally want to go with the known player, right? Always. Yes, yes. Yes. And I think that probably if you're on the defensive side of the ball, you might be like, we're going to have a great defense this year. So can you just get us to like the 15th best offense with Aaron Rogers or bring back Sam so we can guarantee like what we're doing here. And you know, McCarthy didn't miss a lot of time, of course. But when you ultimately land on pushing aside to really good proven quarterbacks to go with McCarthy, I don't know what more. evidence we need when we've got that right there.

So you never heard any kind of whispers or anything. There was no, there was, you think there was never any concerns in the Vikings building ever about whether they were ready to turn it over to J.J. McCarthy. Oh, no. I think that they had a lot of conversations about it. I'm not saying that they never, do you think they had concerns? Of course they did. Because I see that quote.

I see a real big gap here between, uh, those types of vague quotes and what's actually gotten out. Okay. it feels like there's more to the story that we just don't that isn't being reported is what it feels like this whole offseason does including all of those Rogers reports there's a there's a disconnect somewhere in the narrative around j jay mccarthy and how the vikings do or not do not feel about him and the way the people who cover the team seem to have rallied around the idea that it's all just perfectly fine and everything makes perfect sense and this is complete smooth

and there's absolutely no concerns about JJ right that's the that's the view from internally right that's the view from the people covering the team well there's a big gap between those things you talk to a head coach the head coach will say i don't hear slam dunk stuff we pull every beatwriter this is a slam dunk i mean what more do you need they went right to this guy so what kind of conversations do you think the head coach is having? Do you think he's talking to people on the staff or in the front office or he's just making it up? No, I mean, I think that that is what has been spun

as a narrative from some people, some people who were really banging the drum for Aaron Rogers to become a Minnesota Viking. I think that that's been kind of the thing that's been out there in a lot of national outlets of there's something going on there, there's something going on with J.J. McCarthy. Now, how could you ever be 1,000% when the kids,

was recovering from a serious injury when he's never played before. Of course you're having that discussion. I think they wanted to watch him this off season. I think they wanted to make him earn it. I think they didn't want to annoy him because you could have easily on day one of the Rogers stuff once you knew it wasn't going to happen.

You could have said, look, we are a million percent. This is JJ's job. And that's not what they said. That's what the Colts would have said if somebody had a report that Andrew Luck, they were looking at somebody when they had Andrew Luck, correct, before he had played, or the Packers with Love

who hadn't played if there's a report they were looking at somebody it'd be like immediately put to rest right and it kind of wasn't stuff was stuff was allowed to linger there a little bit well how long did it linger I mean like a week and a half I mean it was a very long week and a half it was it was it was crazy it was it was crazy I did seven podcasts on it yeah exactly I'm just saying where there's where there's smoke there's something there's just a little something there that isn't as seamless as it could have been. And it all may work out great. It all may work out great. But I think it's an interesting situation to watch. And I think my conclusion is, let him play. Let's just see him play. I'm tired of all this stuff. If we had to,

if he gets hurt this year and doesn't play the whole year, I'm not going to be able to take it. You know, it's just like we just have to table all discussion on this guy until he actually plays. because I do feel like it got a little out of hand. Well, and that's what I think that a lot of the conjecture where it comes from is that people just haven't seen J.J. McCarthy. But I think if you're the Vikings and Aaron Rogers calls you and says, do you want me to come play for you and throw the ball to Justin Jefferson, you have to think about it. You have to ask ownership's opinion.

You have to get the opinion of people in your building. And you have to think about that very hard about whether you want to give J.J. McCarthy another year. And I agree with you that when you talk about slam dunk, of course, until you actually see him out there playing in real NFL games. I mean, there's guys on your list who have moved up and down tears every single year that people debate every single week on the internet that aren't a slam dunk yet. But the point that I would make is you have to consider bringing back Darnold. You have to consider Aaron Rogers. You have to consider where he is at health wise, which he was still coming back from health-wise as they're making this decision in real

time. But when they land on the conclusion, they have all the meetings, all the discussions that they conclude, this is the best possible way to go about it. That to me feels like quite a high bar to reach when you turn down other people. And then also, you know, it should be pointed out, like this was the plan the whole time. Like when Casey Adolfo Menza and KOC got here, the plan was to have this guy at this moment with this team. So I guess that's where I think the disconnect is. But I also think it's very clear from the comments that everyone needs to see J.J. McCarthy because there's been a lot of inventing of a J.J. McCarthy in people's heads

who haven't seen him. It's funny. You know, I have a file here of all the comments. And I wish I would have put, I can't believe I didn't put this one in. Let me just see. I don't think I did. Here's one from someone in a front office for for now, but he was my favorite. favorite guy out of that class. Not the most talented, but the, the mental side, the intangibles, the ability. I thought he was just wired for success. I should have put that in there. Probably should I put that in there. I just saw it here to the last one in my notes. So, you know, there's people who really liked JJ McCarthy. In fact, I did a podcast with, before Randy Mueller left the athletic to go back to the Saints. I mean, he was banging the drum for McCarthy before anyone else was that he's going to be a top 10 pick, you know, that that high. And no one was really saying that for a while. And he was.

he was on him i do remember that so there's a lot of people who like jada mccarthy i think it was been implied in the coverage of him more nationally and somewhat somewhat uh locally that they have had some some questions about him have arisen behind the scenes and we're not privy to that that's the what's implied and so let's just let him play it doesn't seem to be the case now and no of that stuff seems to be relevant uh and his play is going to and how he handles the situation, is going to tell everything. I do think it's a fascinating team

because they got older this offseason. I think they're leaning into this idea that, hey, we've got a good medical plan here with these older guys who've been hurt. They'll be fine with us. And I don't know. I've seen that before. But they went with a super veteran team

and then you're plugging in the green guy, who best case scenario, probably J.J. McCarthy's going to need half a season or two-thirds of a season, just to find his bearings. You know, the hard part for him is, you know, it could very well be rocky for half the year. That doesn't mean anything.

But he's going to be like, hey, what if Darnold has having a good year with Seattle or Rogers comes back? You sort of have to live with that. And, oh, questions about JJ, this and that. And, oh, he missed this read. And it's like, dude, he's a rookie. He may have a, he may have a not great season. That's totally normal.

right i've uh i have already prepared myself for uh if he is you know 16 for 28 in the first week and they win 17 14 of is j j really good enough to win with this team uh there's already been a lot of that and i've i've brought that up with with viking fans of like prepare yourself you're going to be on get up every single week especially because they start the season monday night football and then sunday night football so you get the island game which means you get all the talkers But let me ask you this, Mike, you mentioned, and I agree with you that ups and downs are to be very much expected. What tier would he have to be in in the 2026 version for this team to be a serious Super Bowl contender?

Oh, I think you'd love to see him go up into that Bo Nix range. Like Bo Nix winning, Bo Nix had a good season, but people want to see it again, right? So in the absence of a Jaden Daniels type here where you're in the championship game, you know, and you had a bottom 10 defense. and, you know, I mean, you were a superstar almost for part of the year. You can get to the top of tier two doing that. Like Lamar did that early in his career. Herbert quickly went up to the top of tier two.

I think that's probably the outlier type of a situation. Stroud kind of did that. But I think a Knicks type of year where you feel like the marriage is good between the quarterback and the head coach, right? No one's saying that Nix is Mahomes or Lamar, Josh Allen. Like physically, he just may not be. But you can see what the head coach was looking for when they drafted him. coach is super invested in making this guy succeed, unlike Sean Payton was with Russell Wilson,

by the way. And it just feels right. And it feels like he's going to get tier three, but most people in Denver probably feel he's tier two. And if he does the exact same thing from last year, he is tier two. And you had Denver like last year with a good defense top five. The coach was even saying, hey, we were looking for we were so bummed. We lost to Buffalo. We were looking forward to playing in Kansas City. Like that's a level of optimism and confidence that they have in their guy after a really good year where it just felt like a great fit. So I would love to see that. Kevin O'Connell's gotten a lot of, you know,

pats on the back over the year for over the years for making the most of these quarterbacks and including guys who were backups who got in in dire circumstances. They've, they've done better for the most part than people thought they would have. So, hey, if JJ McCarthy's his guy, he's had a year in the building to, you know, learn the offense, get comfortable with the guys, earn everybody's respect, hope hopefully why couldn't this be like that right why couldn't it be like bow nix who was the sixth quarterback uh you know uh taking in the draft why couldn't j j you know have that type of year especially he's got the weaponry right so is bow nicks a good comp of like a first rounder who

not everybody had as their top quarterback he wasn't like consensus but if the coach liked him just like they like bow nicks you got a chance for success well and i think that bow nicks did a really great job last year of kind of managing his way through some games with a great defense and then coming along and starting to open things up. Yeah, you went along where I think there's a difference is the supporting cast. I mean, once they get Addison back, you're talking about one of the best groups of weapons in the NFL and improved offensive line, although Denver has a good offensive line, but they might have to play like that a little bit early on those first couple of weeks, like try to win with a little lower scores and then see it all start to kind of come to fruition. Um, but I felt

I think it's a good, I think it's a good comp, though. I think if he's Bo Nix, that they win a lot of football games. Oh, a ton. And you're right. Like the first half of the year, Bo Nix's numbers were kind of hollow, weren't they? It looked good on paper, but you sort of knew what they were doing. And then by the end of the year, I think it felt better than that. So that's a great comp.

I think that's a great realistic expectation. Maybe it's the high side of the realistic expectation, but he has a good group around him. I mean, you've got to say O'Connell's a good coach, good offensive play caller. They've invested in the offensive line, right? They've got really good receipts. ievers. Why not? I mean, that's what their, that's what their whole argument is, is that not franchise tagging Sam Darnold, paying him 40 mil allowed them to go get a guard, allowed them to

go get defensive tackles. So he doesn't have to do everything right away. The 2024 class is so interesting, though. When I look at the tears, it feels to me like there's a lot of, and it's totally fair of, eh, like we're not really sure. Like Michael Pennix has some amazing throws last year looks the part, but don't really know. Drake may, I just got done watching him at joint practices. I'm just, I'm wishing the best for Drake because he doesn't have an offensive line and his best receiver is a 30 plus year old coming off an ACL that wasn't doing everything in practice or definitely wasn't dominating practice. I think he's really in tough, but Pennix has a good supporting cast. It seems like the only one that people are really like very high

on is just Jaden Daniels. Yeah, but Jaden Daniels, you know, he's the highest that anyone's ever debuted as a second year quarterback. Remember, I don't have rookies in it. He broke Stroud's record. Stroud had broken Herbert's record. Stroud and Herbert, you know, so far, I don't know if plateaued. You know, they didn't make the push into Tier 1 yet. Maybe Stroud still will.

Maybe Herbert will. But I thought that was very positive talk around Bo Nix. In fact, somebody, I thought a really interesting quote from somebody was, hey, don't, you know, don't set in stone the order of this class after one year. Obviously, we can't with the guys who haven't played. The idea was that this could come down to, you know, a quarterback coaching competition between Sean Payton and Cliff Kingsbury. I thought that was an interesting way to look at Bo Nix, like, hey, you know, is he going to be pushing up into high tier two next year? And will,

will Jaden Daniels, you know, with everyone gunning for him and having better defensive plans for him and maybe not, you know, I'm an okay supporting task, but not a great one, does he just sort of stay there or is he two ticks lower and does Bo Nix kind of get into that conversation? I think that's interesting. I was struck by the negative conversation around Caleb Williams. He was the consensus number one pick in that draft. And I just didn't get the feeling that the voters would still take him there. And there were real concerns about his kind of processing that when you hear that

from enough people, you're like, oh, how much better at that do you get? Some people just either sort of have that ability to deal with everything quickly or not. And so like not an issue with Jaden Daniels doesn't seem to you as Bowen. no one's saying those things. But when you have everyone saying that about a guy, I, you know, that I wonder about that. With Caleb, I felt very much that way in his two games against the Vikings. And one of them, he made a bunch of incredible scramble plays. And in the other game, he didn't.

And that was Caleb Williams last year, basically, right? He was either good when he was getting the stuff out of structure. And when he wasn't, it seemed like he just couldn't see the field very well. And he couldn't process stuff. but is there was there a sense that you got that ben johnson is going to flip that on its head for caleb williams because i personally am a little skeptical when it comes to that i think that that was not the total consensus i mean that it could help him that he may just need more time but you know i think people recognize there that ben johnson kind of has the longer

runaway of anybody there and i'm very interested to see does ben johnson you know try to see if Caleb Williams can do his offense or does he tailor it and bend it around the young quarterback and maybe there's some limitations there and it looks a little bit different. I've been struck by Ben Johnson's like willingness to kind of air stuff publicly, right? I mean, he's like talking about the player's body language and implying guys are in the training room too much. It's a little bit old school. I think it's kind of refreshing.

But if you don't have success, you know, I think that that type of stuff can wear thin too. and how does Caleb respond to that, right? It's very interesting to me because usually you inherit the number one pick like that, and that number one pick is going to determine your success. And I just sort of feel like the juice belongs to the new head coach. It just seems that way there. Yeah, you can either be, you know, the genius who turned around the culture with your hard nose approach or you can be Matt Patricia.

Or you could be Joe Judge or you could be Josh McDaniels, right? if it doesn't work and your quarterback doesn't respond to it, you just end up being Urban Meyer or something. Yeah, yeah. And I think, yeah, exactly. Ben Johnson was a great coordinator, you know, and now it's a new thing as the head coach. So I do think, though, that in general,

it's easier to start out being hard on guys and then to kind of manage it than it is to, you know, go the other way around. Like I think there's been a couple of coaches. Brandon Staley was maybe one of him, maybe Mike McDaniel's one, who you come in and you're sort of everybody's, you know, you're on everybody's side. And then it's hard to sort of like pull the reins later after that. So Ben Johnson may know exactly what he's doing. And, you know, it may work out really well for him too. I'm very curious because you've done this for a number

years. What was the first QB T years year? Do you remember? 2014. So that would that have been like, yeah, 2014, I can't remember what the rookie class was that year. But yeah, it was first year. Okay. So I mean, that's a decade worth of data sets here. And what I'm curious about is your observation over the years when it comes to young quarterbacks and how transient they are in the list from year to years. So at like these 2024 class, they've got them in a certain spot now. What do you observe of how much change there is from year to year, especially with young quarterbacks? Well, so because tier four is has two possible definitions, it's either. the veteran quarterback who we don't think is a full season starter like Joe Flacko, he's kind of a bridge or something, maybe Russell Wilson's in that bucket now. It could also be J.J. McCarthy, we don't have enough info. You're giving him a four, but you're not saying we think he sucks, right? You're just saying, I'm giving him a four, he didn't play, he had an injury,

I just need to see him come back and before I pass judgment. So oftentimes what happens is, like this year, Kirk Cousins is a couple spots ahead of Michael Pennix, but everybody would take penics. the difference is that after three starts uh i believe pennix was able to get 11 tier three votes and then he got 39 in tier four that we're just like hey it's only three starts the kid looks good but i don't i want to kind of abstain this year right from voting but cousin gets like a 25 or 26 tier fours that's 25 or 26 people saying we think he's not a starter anymore

so cousin's a little higher but he's really falling so i kind of discount a little bit the first year, especially for Jake McCarthy, I mean, 4.0, he's just, that's just, that's not even a judgment on him. I look, I mean, Patrick Mahomes started in Tier 4 after one start. People liked him, but they weren't going to give him a two after one start. So I really think you have to look at next year for those guys who didn't play. Now, if you're Jade, Jaydon Daniels or Bonex played the whole year and showed a lot, you can really, in your first time, after your rookie year, you can start out in your tier two or three. But don't worry about being Tier 4 after not. playing or playing only three games like Michael Pennix. It's just sort of a placeholder until we get

to see you. Okay. Last question for you. Jordan Love is 13th on this list. That is exactly where I would rank Jordan Love. I mean, just kind of in the middle. Obviously, he's a starting quarterback who can win and have great games, but I wouldn't put him ahead of many of the guys that he's ahead of on this list. Do you think that's who Jordan Love is? Or do you think that there is opportunity for him to rise the list. Because if you ask our friends to the east here, they will tell you, well, you know, has wide receivers and he was banged up last year, et cetera, et cetera. So they draft a couple wide receivers.

Do you think it's going to be different based on what you heard about, Jordan Love? Well, based on what I heard, it was all over the map. I mean, people had very different opinions that, hey, the coach should be tailoring things more to him. No, he, you know, the coach did a good job. They sure throw the ball deep a lot. I think he's a year away from people's wondering a little bit more.

And so I don't know that I'm going to bet on it just being super consistent because they drafted a receiver in the first round this year. You know, maybe he's going to kind of be a low two. Settle in as a low two. I think people do want to see a little more consistency from him. And if he is more consistent, he probably goes to the middle of tier two. But, yeah, I think I'm going to wait and see mode with him. You know, I'm not, you can definitely see the talent.

but you've got to be on the field the whole year. You've got to be more consistent. I think he has it in him, but it's a little, I don't know crosswords is the right. Crossroads is it's too early for a crossroads. But, you know, I've seen this before like where like Justin Herbert just sort of is where he is, right? And we can see the talent. Like, is he ever going to be the guy that he could be?

I mean, what do you have by now? I may be, you know, Lamar Jackson needed some time. Josh Allen needed some. time. So I'm willing to say that it's possible. But we got to probably see it this year, right, a little bit more. I think there's a lot of quarterbacks who get one big shot at that where everything goes right for them that year, schedule offensive line, health, receivers, coaching. And there's quarterbacks who just are that every single year. It doesn't matter about those other things. And they'll make it right. I don't think he's a guy who makes it all right.

I think he's like, I mean, he's right next to Dak Prescott. It's a great example. Like two years ago, Dak Prescott had everything kind of right, had the number one offense, missed his chance. That's probably how it's going to be for Jordan Love. Of course. I can see that too. Yeah, and Dak Prescott's been a good starter for 10 years and maybe organizationally Green Bay can, you know, they're the opposite of Dallas in terms of the focus in Green Bay is all in football. You know, in Dallas, it's Jerry Jones, this and that. Maybe, you know, maybe they do get a breakthrough in the playoffs. They kind of did that one year. They beat Dallas that coincidentally. So maybe maybe they can do that. Yeah, I think he's like in any given week. Any given week you play Jordan

love, you could get lit up or you could light him up. Mike, I could go through every single quarterback and grill you on every single one of these because it's just so interesting. It's one of my favorite articles of the year. I wait for it every summer. Love talking about it with you, but you've got this media tour. So you got about 50 other these to do today. Here's what I'd love you do someday for me. Just pick a random old year, like 1994, and ask everybody who was around then, hey, where would you rank the different quarterbacks from quarterback tears? I wish this was around when I was growing up.

It would have been so cool to have. It would be so great. It would be hard to not look back and realize what the guy did later, you know, or earlier. You didn't see for them for the body of their career, but I would love that. Wouldn't that be fun? Go back into the scouting reports. I wish I could go back.

That would just be awesome. So thank you. Quarterback tiers, go find it. at the athletic, Mike Sando, you were the best. Thank you so much for finding some time for me today. I really appreciate you, man. Thanks for coming on. Great discussion.

Great discussion. Thank you. There you go. Mike Sando. Let me get you. I forgot about the Fandul question of the day. And actually I had something different related to Justin Jefferson. I can give you or I can save it until tomorrow because it popped into my head as I was

talking with Mike Sando there about the Bo Nix to look up what Fandul has for Bo Nix and J.J. McCarthy for this year for yardage totals. And it's actually really, really similar. Bo Nix is 3,500 on the nose. And J.J. McCarthy is 3,575. So the fan duel question of the day is who will end up with more yardage passing this year, Bo Nix, or J.J. McCarthy. and I think I would lean a little bit toward J.J. McCarthy to start off, but Bo Nix has a year of actually playing under his belt. They've improved that football team. I think they're going to run the ball better.

They've got a little bit more in terms of at least developing some of their younger wide receivers. I was a little surprised that they did not do more as a franchise to give Bo Nix more wide receivers to work with, but I think they got what, Evan Ingram out there, so at least giving him a tight end. I would lean toward J.J. McCarthy is the better bet to hit the over there on fan duel than Bo Nix, but I also see some of you I saw in the comments saying, like, you didn't like Bo Nix coming out and he's not that good.

I liked a lot of things that I saw from him last year. I mean, he got his team to the playoffs. He improved greatly in the second half of the season. I don't think that he has quite the upside of some of the other quarterbacks in that draft, including J.J. McCarthy. but I also have already seen him take a team to the playoffs. That's hard to do. It's hard to win double-digit games as a young quarterback coming in for the first time in the NFL.

So Fandul question of the day is, which is the better bet? The over on J.J. McCarthy at 3,575 or the over on Bo Nix at 3,500 exactly.