Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Vikings, did you watch the Bills win over Kansas City? This could be your future

Episode Date: October 13, 2021

Matthew Coller and Sam Ekstrom talk about how the Minnesota Vikings are similar to what the Buffalo Bills used to be under Rex Ryan and how they can become what the Bills are now under Sean McDermott. Why there's reason to believe the Vikings could get themselves on a good path very quickly and some of the holes in the argument, including that not all teams that change directions are stable. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome into our Purple Insider slash Bring Me The News live stream. We do this every week. I'm Matthew Collar. Sam Ekstrom is with me to talk with you for about the next 45 minutes or so about Minnesota Vikings football as they are two and three and get set to face the Carolina Panthers. Sam, how are you doing this afternoon? Doing well, my friend. It's Panthers week. Have we pivoted from the Lions fiasco yet? I think we're still all kind of in shock at the way that game went.

I think the answer is yes. I think once we get past all the Monday reaction, Tuesday is on to talking about what's going to happen going forward. But at least we have another game of context to work with. But I want to start our show today by telling you a tale. You know, yeah, Joe Nelson of bring me the news, put up the, the scary graphic here.

So I figured I would tell a story, but this story is not so scary. This story, in fact, for Vikings fans might be inspiring. Okay. This is the story of the 2016 Buffalo bills. Okay.

This was my first year after I had moved to Minnesota, but I am all too familiar with the 2016 Buffalo Bills because they were coach that under Rex Ryan and Tyrod Taylor for the entire season. And they finished seven and nine in 2016. And the 2016 Buffalo Bills were good offense. They had Robert Woods and Sammy Watkins, two good wide receivers. Tell me if some of this sounds familiar, a quarterback with a 500 record who had his great games and his poor games, Tyrod Taylor. A head coach who had once been great at defense, but his defense faded and they were 16th in the league. So 10th in points for 16th in points against their expected win loss was a little higher than their record of ultimately seven and nine. Now, when I present that to you, that sounds

like a, okay, middle of the pack football team. The previous couple of years under Rex Ryan had been nine and seven and eight and eight. And the Buffalo Bills decided we've seen enough of middling football. They moved on. They hired Sean McDermott, who has become the premier coach in the NFL. They drafted a quarterback high who has a freakish arm and is gigantic and can throw the football a million yards. They use the cap space created by said quarterback to trade for Stefan Diggs, who has become one of the top wide receivers in the National Football League. And they just defeated the Kansas City Chiefs after last year being in the AFC championship. Do you understand,

Sam, where I am going with my story? Yeah, I believe you are drawing what they would call a parallel, a parallel to the Minnesota Vikings, who are also engaged in mediocrity, who run the ball really well, who have a defensive minded coach, who have the potential to go on little streaks here and there, but in the end seem destined for purgatory. Is that where you're getting? That is where, that is where I'm going. And the head coach, by the way, is known in 2016, of course, known for his candor, but also known for some, say, not as, I guess, becoming moments at the podium. That's being Rex Ryan I'm talking about. Their running back, by the way, in 2016

Buffalo Bills averaged 5.4 yards carry, tremendous running back with Sean McCoy, a superstar. You could say that they built their offense around this all sounds very familiar and what the bills ultimately decided is if they wanted to go from being this team that was sort of stuck in the middle relying on a run game hoping a defensive coach would change their fate the only way to do it was to move on from their middling quarterback move on from their middling coach who was past his day and defensive minded and move on to now. Sean McDermott is a defensive minded head coach, but one of the most innovative offensive coaches in Brian Dable was brought in

to coach young Josh Allen. And then of course they built their roster by spending a lot of money through free agency to stack it up. And I was thinking about that quite a bit just the other day as I was watching the Buffalo Bills on Sunday Night Football, because when I look at this Vikings roster, the thing that I keep coming back to is I think it's got a lot of really good players and i think it has the bones of something that doesn't have to tank uh we always talk as if you have to just tank like it's either well you're winning um but you just have to like sell off everything and lose every game and this is not a team that did that um the bills went seven and nine that year they dropped back a little bit and then they were off and running into the playoffs, what, by 2019? And then, or 2018, maybe?

2019? Not 18. That was the year that they upset the Vikings. Maybe a precursor of what was to come. 2019, they're in the playoffs. So a poor year in 2018. 2019, they're in the playoffs. And by the year 2020, they are in the AFC Championship.

And so my point being that sometimes you just end up at the end of the road. And if the Vikings do not beat the Carolina Panthers on Sunday, I believe that this would be the end of that road. But it's a road that does not have to take you into the gutter for many years or something like that. I think it's a road that ultimately can have a bump in it for you to be better down the road. How do you feel about my story, Sam? Yeah, I love the way you laid it out. I mean, you had sort of rising action, you had a climax, you had falling action, you had resolution, you tied it all together. You're quite the raconteur as they would say um in france but

i i think that uh the vikings roster it it's in no way a a tanking roster and that therein lies maybe the problem like it's going to be hard for them to get a high draft pick but you don't need the number one pick it's not the nba where like, you know, the, the Timberwolves by losing the lottery so many years are like worsening their chances of getting a good player in the NFL. You can get a franchise quarterback without getting the number one quarterback in the draft. It happens all the time. So if you have the 12th pick, I mean, I think you're still equipped to probably get, you know, a pretty good player or take a stab at a pretty good player. So you don't need to be three and 13 and this team's not going

to be three and 13, or I guess three and 14 would be the new, uh, three and 13 with the 17 game season. Um, I believe Rex Ryan in your, your scenario, he was fired with one game left. He was. Yep. Yep. And, um, I think we I think we're maybe looking at if the Vikings win at Carolina, the Zimmerleish maybe goes to the end of the year, maybe all the way to week 18. If they lose to Carolina, then we might be having this conversation next week about, I mean, it's going to be Tuesday next week, two days after the game.

What are the chances we're talking about a coaching change at this time next week? Well, according to Vegas, it's about a 50-50 game, right? The Vikings are going on the road, but the Carolina Panthers are only favored by one and a half, I believe, right now. I'm sure there's still, even though the advantage has been mostly mitigated of a home field advantage in the NFL this year, in fact, I think road teams have won more games than home teams so far this season, but maybe Vegas still drizzles in a half a point or something like that for the Vikings being on the road. So essentially it's a coin flip type of game. And so I guess my answer would be it's 50, 50 to me. It's, it's about 50,50 that we're talking about that because the way I am looking at it, especially after the handling of the Bashad Breeland tweet by Mike Zimmer, I thought that was very Rex Ryan-ish.

That everyone was in love with the brashness in New York and then he lost and they fell out of love with the brashness. And the same thing with Zimmer, the bluntness and how much everybody appreciated that early on in his time in Minnesota, because they had been so poor, just like before Rex, they had been very poor. And then like, oh, they're competitive all of a sudden. This is great. And in 2017, there were things said about Case Keenum that shouldn't have been said about Case Keenum, but we went like, who cares? They're winning. Suck it up, Case. But when you are two and three, and that's the way you handle your cornerback saying something like he did, I think, well, that's very Rex-like. It's very kind of, I guess you're being old school in a way.

Like, I don't know. Did they act unprofessionally in the old school? I guess you're being old school in a way. Like, I don't know. Did they act unprofessionally in the old school? I guess sometimes. But that sort of thing has run its course. And then I heard from some people yesterday, just, hey, this is one of the things that the Wilfs will be considering. And so if you thought that Zimmer

was going to do himself any favors by being nicer to kickers, well, the last couple of weeks in the handling at the podium has not done him any favors. And I think that if you try to sell everyone on your team is good, you beat the lions by two when you're favored by 10, and then you go to Carolina and lose to a team that's just, you know, definitively mediocre. Um, yeah, I don't see any reason to keep going down this path i see that i see that is plenty of reason to say what's our next path and can we start our next path today rather than waiting until the very end of the season and i'll just finish the metaphor even

more at one point the buffalo bills beat san francisco 45 16 in that very season that rex got fired i mean there were wins. It wasn't like it was just, you know, like you said, three and 13, there were wins. There were times where they said, ah, yeah, we're a good team. See, we can beat the 49ers by a bunch of points. But ultimately it was the same thing that had been going on with Rex for a long time. And they just decided they had to move on a different direction. So I, I mean, I'll say 50, 50, cause I think it's based on the results, but if they want to get the new direction started now, as opposed to waiting till the end of the season or one game left or something, I mean, I think that's fine.

The way that things stand right now and the way the fan base feels about it. And even the tension with Zimmer, every time he it's it's almost like you have to either go on some big run and go deep in the playoffs or change directions and those are the only two options yeah and just for clarity for everyone watching too without getting into gory detail Rashad Breland had like a really disgusting tweet directed at the fans Mike Zimmer was questioned about it and then defended Breland, defended his performance, turned it back on a reporter. It's just a little bit strange, just for anyone who missed that. But here's the thing about the Vikings changing direction.

It's that they have building blocks on offense, which is the more important side of the ball for a rebuild. Like whoever would happen to inherit this team is inheriting. Okay. Albatross of a contract at quarterback. Yes, I accept that, but that's kind of a given that you're going to move on from this cousins era at some point. You've got a running back, you know, who is probably overpaid just because he's a running back, but he's locked in. You've got Justin Jefferson, rookie contract, Irv Smith, rookie contract. Say what you will about them as players and prospects, but Cleveland and Bradbury, rookie contracts. Ole Udo seems to be playing decently. He's cheap. You've got a cheap offensive line. You've got one stalwart in Brian O'Neill, but you're not

over-invested on offense. You have a lot of long-term contracts, a lot of rookie contracts. You've kind of got that group together and it's a good group. I mean, you fortify that offensive line. Maybe Christian Derrissaw is really good. You've got something there. So whoever would kind of take the reins on an interim level, and I'm thinking Andre Patterson, but you know, Clint Kubiak would have a lot, probably a lot of say in the direction going forward, too, I would imagine. You are set up well, I think, for the next generation offensively, which is what matters most. The defense could be a mess. Like, I mean, a lot of these guys signed on because they wanted to play with Mike Zimmer.

The odds of them re-signing probably go down with a new coach, an offensive-minded coach, and a new scheme. So the defense has a ton of question marks going forward, and even with Zimmer. Even with Zimmer, they have question marks. So that's going to happen either way. But I think the offense is more set up for continuity to continue playing with a lot of talent into next year,

and maybe whoever is calling the shots can harness that maybe a little bit more effectively. You know, there's another guy that came to mind of sort of a connection of Robert Woods because Robert Woods, when he was in Buffalo, was kind of just a guy. And then he goes to Los Angeles and plays with Sean McVay. And he's one of the better wide receivers in the NFL.

He's not exactly your fantasy, whatever, but I think anybody who really studies the NFL closely will tell you that Robert Woods is one of the best receivers in the league. And nobody thought that when he was in Buffalo. And now people do think that about Justin Jefferson, of course, but here's what made me really sort of get the wheels turning about, um, about sort of like what the future could be. If you decide, Hey, it's the end of this road, let's take another road. I was looking at the pro football focus grades and numbers for wide receivers.

And number one is Devontae Adams, no shock there. He is incredible, the premier receiver in the league at this moment. Right behind him though, Justin Jefferson, second highest graded wide receiver. The difference in targets is 61 to 44 between Devontae Adams and Justin Jefferson, second highest graded wide receiver. The difference in targets is 61 to 44 between Devante Adams and Justin Jefferson. Now you might say, well, isn't that because Adam Thielen is taking his targets? Well, no, not really, because you have to scroll way down to find Adam Thielen's targets.

In fact, he's not even in the first page by PFF in his total targets this year. So that makes me think as well that you know buffalo had robert woods and they had sammy watkins just the way that they have stefan diggs and cole beasley and emmanuel sanders now that that the weapons are there and to me the quarterback uh comparison is you know you almost have to kind of be there to understand how similar it is because i think fans would say whoa look kirk is way better than tyrod taylor but i mean espn was coming out to buffalo writing huge articles about how tyrod taylor was actually great and that no one would

give him the credit and his statistics were all really good and his qbr and his pff grade and all those things but ultimately tyrodrod Taylor was a 500 quarterback year in and year out. And they said, instead of signing him to a huge contract, let's get the big giant guy on the rookie deal. And they, and this is how Buffalo has gone from a long time laughing stock, which the Vikings are not, but have a long time laughing stock to now the team that you would all vote number one to win the super bowl this year in in just a matter of a couple of seasons and i think because the vikings don't have to rebuild so much this can be you this can be your future you don't have to go matt stafford to jared goff

to whatever the hell else is on that detroit lions team like you can maintain the bones of a very good team and make changes to your direction at key spots and get right there quickly. But what's very hard to do is continue rolling out the same people and the same things in the same offense and the same front office and the same draft picks that you take a guy in the fourth round and tell us it's going to be Daniil Hunter and the same quarterback in the same offense that he's in. That's very hard to get different results. And you know where you even see this sometimes good franchises like Pittsburgh, what's Pittsburgh going to be this year, nine and seven or nine and eight, something like that. Like, yeah, that's what they've been for a really long time. Cause they've been rolling out the same thing over and

over again. So it even happens to great franchisesises i guess that's what was on my mind on watching sunday night football is like this can be you this doesn't have to be just for special people like what lamar jackson think of baltimore defensive franchise quarterback who was pretty good and they won a super bowl in his prime but past his prime he's still pretty good good you know good coach who's there for a long time. But then they get the quarterback who's different. And I think their coach is different. I think that their front office is on a different level from where the Vikings are. So they've got the coach, they've got the exciting quarterback on the rookie contract, they've got defensive players that they've stacked by paying a lot of money, and they've got a progressive and smart front office and decision makers. And there you go. And that's where you can be. Sam, you're muted.

Sorry about that. You look at the last four, like really good Vikings teams, right? To the last three, the three that went to the NFC championship game, they made kind of one big tweak, right? I mean, in 2017, they gave Pat Shermer the play calling reins. You know, they had Case Keenum catch fire at quarterback and the 2016 team had good bones, right? And they just made a little tweak. The 2009 Vikings brought in a really good quarterback. That was their tweak and they almost made the Super Bowl. 98 Vikings, you know, they upgraded from Brad Johnson to Randall Cunningham. That was due to injury, but that tweak was enough to get them over the top to become an elite team. You know, in 2000, they had Culpepper.

Like they've kind of made that one key adjustment to go from good to great. And, you know, in this case, we might be talking about a bigger, more wholesale philosophy change. But I think that can also, you don't have to abandon everything you've created with this current team. So I'm trying to look for counter examples because I've used the examples of where it worked and where it was similar. I think until right now, you could have said Cincinnati, but Cincinnati would be an example of a team that did not change directions at the right time, hung on for too long and then had to tank. They had to go all the way down, but they didn't have a Justin Jefferson, an Eric Hendricks, a Harrison Smith. Like they lost all of that. They ran out of talent and

then they had to tank. But even then, would you trade places with Cincinnati? You bet you would right now. I mean, with the way that Joe Burrow is playing and the amount of cash they have, it's not their fault that their ownership is not good. But is, is there a counter example? I'm trying to think like, is there a team that sort of stayed with their direction after it had hit kind of the dead middle, not tanking. And then they just popped out of it and sort of, they stuck with it, stuck with it, stuck with it. And then just went, whoop, we win now. Like saints, Sean Payton. Okay. Yeah.

With, with Bree, they had three straight years of seven and nine with Breeze. If things felt stale, um, you know, they, they weren't that far removed from, uh, bounty gate. Payton suspension and they drafted really well one year and kind of popped out of it. That's, that's the, the one that comes to mind for me and maybe far, let's see, was it McCarthy with Favre when Favre kind of had that resurgence late in his career after he was stale with Sherman, but that, again, that might've been, that might've been the switch to McCarthy, which actually sparked that. Yeah. And there's I was gonna say Pittsburgh with uh Bill Cower after they had won a Super Bowl but um he kind of wanted a little a little later in his career so that wouldn't that wouldn't really

be it either uh the example with New Orleans though is interesting because even in those years where they won seven games they still had really great offenses and they needed just somebody to not be speaking of the Ryans, Rob Ryan, who was a, and, and this, this was the sort of thing where like when you see, and there's similarities here, but like when you see coaches doing things that sort of feel like on the way out things like Rex Ryan brought in Rob Ryan in Buffalo to coach in 2016. It's like, what? Rob Ryan is one of the worst defensive coaches in the league. I mean, he's a guy who totally tanked New

Orleans' defense. Why are you bringing him in? Oh, because he's your brother and that's what you do, I guess. And so there's some feel of that around here at times. But I guess when it comes to New Orleans, you already had that. You needed Marshawn Lattimore. You needed Mario Davis. You needed Cameron Jordan. You needed like those key players to step in. But it's a lot easier to take a defense from bad to average, as we've seen this year. This year, they sign a handful of players who go from bad to average.

Then it is to change your fate with offense. And I wrote the piece at Purple Insider, and you have another one, and they both sort of point to the same thing. You look at their end of game stuff or end of half stuff, and I looked at a bunch of statistics, a lot of them on the offensive side. They're 16th in offensive expected points added,

which is basically situation how you perform. Sounds about right. Sounds about always. If you sounds about always if you're new orleans and you're third every year and your defense is just historically bad sign some players get a new defensive coordinator fix that kansas city did that with spagnolo after they were so bad in 2018 that's a lot easier to change in terms of your fate than it is being in the mid-pack and expected points added year after year on offense. Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I mean, you've seen what one kind of savvy

offseason can do to your defense. You can get all sorts of new starters, some of them pretty cheaply and some of them pretty effective. Xavier Woods is cheap and pretty effective. Mackenzie Alexander is dirt cheap. Nick Vigil is dirt cheap. Everson Griffin and Steven Weatherly are dirt cheap. What's the combined salary of those five names? $10 million? You're not paying a lot on that side of the ball. And sometimes you can kind of scheme your way to a good defense, which I think Mike Zimmer has done for a lot of years and maybe is running out of steam a little bit, which I think Mike Zimmer has done for a lot of years and maybe is running out of steam a little bit, but I think that's harder on offense. I mean, I think you still need those horses on the offensive side, on your line, your quarterback, obviously, and that

receiver where it's harder to fake your way to a good record because you're going to get exposed over time. Well, and I was thinking about this defense last night and sort of looking over the numbers and my conclusion was it's fine i mean it's fine it's good enough to win with it's certainly good enough to win with yeah you get run over sometimes it's going to be hard to dominate time of possession but think about this i mean if you are a top 10 defense against the pass and pretty poor against the run. You're going to take that all day in 2021. I mean, okay, go ahead, run against us. And I think that Zimmer is, is smart in doing this in using his two deep safeties back and not putting that extra guy in the box to stuff the run. It's going to be harder without Michael Pierce, of course, but I think that that's the way you should

do it. I think he's got a lot of things, right? I think his third down defense is excellent. I mean, there are so many things on the defensive side that they do well. Everson Griffin has bounced back and is just terrific. Eric Hendricks is a superstar and the scheme I think is fine. It's just how far does this take you is the question that I keep coming back to.

And I watched Lamar Jackson last night do a thing that I have done on Madden, like 500 yards for one guy. You're supposed to compete with that. Tom Brady threw for 400 plus, and here you are plotting to 19 points, having to get a 54 yard field goal to get to 19 points against the Detroit Lions, who, by the way, in yards per play, you saw Kansas City Sunday night. Guess who the next worst team other than Kansas City is? It's Detroit in terms of yards per play allowed. And you got 19 points.

And Lamar Jackson's in this league, and you play him. I mean, what are you going to do here? Right. And what do you, what is the answer to this? There is such a flex that is tangible with the Kansas cities and the Baltimore's where when they need a score, maybe it's to like put the boot on the throat or maybe it's to get back in the game. I mean, maybe they're down by 10 before halftime and they say, all right, we've got to close the gap here. They flip that switch so easily and they do it with urgency and speed, decisiveness. The Vikings are not explosive on offense. There's nothing they've wanted to be. They've claimed they want to be. They're not. There's nothing about that offense that really makes things easy like even when they're playing really well offensively which they've done and you can't you know and

maybe this is a little bit of why they've kind of come back to the pack these last couple weeks is because even in those really good games against Seattle and Arizona they were still dependent on kind of rushing the ball well long drives drives, picking up first downs with the run game. They had to convert some longer third downs with the pass, which isn't always sustainable. I mean, those were still pretty long drives. They're not a quick strike team. And I think to be a modern offense, you have to have that ability just to say, we're going to get this done. And I don't know if the Vikings, have the desire or be like, you know, have the ability. Folks, football season is in full swing, but we've got basketball and

hockey getting rolling as well. And soda stick has got you covered. You have to see the moose t-shirt designs for Marcus Foligno. You could also get your hands on the very popular dollar bill Kirill shirts as well. On the basketball side, the design with three wolves howling at the moon, perfect for the spooky fall season. And the design with the wolf carved into the state of Minnesota is just awesome. It's very cool stuff. And hey, for you college football fans, check out the Tanner Morgan t-shirts as well.

SodaStick has tons of hats and hoodies with all their great designs on them you will love it go to sodastick.com that is s-o-t-a-s-t-i-c-k check that out today use the promo code purple insider for free shipping and also follow myself and soda stick on twitter for our giveaways it does feel a little bit like to make a Timberwolves comparison, or maybe there's a twins one mixed in here of like Tibbs and the way Tibbs wanted to play. As much as I think that Tom Thibodeau is a very professional coach and good. I think he's good. Just like, I think Mike Zimmer is good. I was getting tweets from an obvious burner account yesterday about how, you know, I, I,

I want him fired and I think he's terrible and all these things. It's like, well, first of all, I don't, I don't want anybody fired. I only look at the reality of the thing and, and the point in the road in which you have reached and how many times I've seen it before. And so that's what we talk about. But you think about Tibbs, even though he was good, he got them to the playoffs. Dumping it down into the post was the way that it was done in the early 2000s, 90s and so forth.

And if the 90s New York Knicks, who I grew up loving, shout out Charles Oakley, they would get murdered by the best teams in the NBA. Now they would just get murdered. They're just playing a different game. Steph Curry would drop 33 pointers against the Knicks from back in the NBA now. They would just get murdered. They're just playing a different game. Steph Curry would drop 33 pointers against the Knicks from back in the day. There's no delusions about that. Like that's how it happens, right? You advance the way you play. You know that I wrote the article about Steven Weatherly in chess. Gary Gasparov is considered the best player of all time in chess, but he gets beat now. Like he's, he's older and he's not as advanced as some of the younger players who use data and stuff to analyze their moves. And he just goes to tournaments and gets

beat because that's how this world works. And that's how it feels. And so I guess I thought watching Buffalo, I wasn't like, wow, this is just, you know, dreadful for the Vikings that there's teams this good. I thought, I don't think it's that, I don't think it's that i don't think it's that far away i just don't i don't think it's in a different universe that you could play with a team like that and yet against detroit it felt like it and that's when you get to the point where you go okay now uh like you have you seen the meme that's like um what does it say like tell me i'm wrong or something or talk me out of it what is the it says that, right? That the guy's holding up the sign. I mean, go ahead. Like talk, talk me out of this opinion, Sam, you don't have to believe it, but just

talk me out of this because that's, that's where I, that's where I stand at this moment today, especially after that ludicrous comment in the press conference. I just thought like, yeah, okay. I'm, I'm good with thinking that Brandonon staley is the way to is the way that you need to go your team needs to have justin herbert and brandon staley or sean mcdermott and josh allen if you want to win anything in the league tell me i'm wrong or talk me out of it okay so here's where you're not wrong you're not wrong that like trying to freshen it up is probably a good move where you're you're not wrong. You're not wrong that like trying to freshen it up is probably a good move where you're, you're not flat out wrong, but I think it, there's a little bit of, of maybe a little survivorship bias when you look at the teams where it's worked,

right. And you point to them like Buffalo 2016, and you say, that's the model, but how many middling teams have tried the reset from caldwell to patricia right and they fall flat on their face from uh was it trestle to naggy no not not trestle who was this john fox john fox i thought there was a guy in between who went to it was like from the cfl who had glasses yeah yeah yeah i know who you're thinking of but that was uh it was fox because remember he was there in 2017 against the vikings with trubisky making his first star but i know i know who you're talking about yeah i think he might even get it be like a minnesota native anyway from that guy to naggy that was supposed to be a rejuvenator and it was for like a second and now he's almost fired right

mark tressman mark tressman's who you think tressman yeah i knew there was like an s sound in the last name nailed it um so i and there's i'm sure countless other examples that are that are eluding me right now but the reset you have to get it right and to pull that timberwolves example you know that you were you were going after, we've seen, um, middling teams with that organization, try to freshen things up, try to like make that extra step with a savvy hire. And it doesn't always go well. Um, so you gotta get it right. You've got to get not only the coach, but the quarterback too. Um, and the bills nailed it with both, you know, the chiefs nailed it obviously with the quarterback and pairing him with a brilliant offensive minded coach.

I mean, home run doesn't always work that way. So let's talk about the teams where it hasn't worked. So, I mean, the Giants have not been stable since Tom Coughlin. So, I mean, maybe you could say Tom Coughlin was a problem. They tried to go to what, like Ben McAdoo or something. And then they got themselves stuck in this giant rut, but really, really they got themselves stuck in a giant rut because they had a, uh, great quarterback not be great anymore. And then they couldn't move on from him because he was Eli Manning and he won two super bowls and they just had no other choice.

Right. So that doesn't really match up here. You have no loyalty to Kirk cousins, I don't think. So let's see other teams that are absolutely horrendous, like the Falcons. They've sort of fallen into disrepair, but you would say this for the Falcons though, with their coach who seems offensive minded and is using Cordero Patterson. If they go like six and whatever, and they draft a quarterback and pair them with Kyle Pitts, Kelvin Ridley. What's left of Cordero Patterson's career in terms of excitement, offensive line. That's pretty young. Like you'd bet on them, right?

That they could be pretty good. I mean, I mean, that's like, like even Carolina, I think made, I mean, holy cow, just the worst move in trading for Sam Darnold, like a very bad bet. And I think we're going to see Mike Zimmer really toy with Sam Darnold, like a very bad bet. And I think we're going to see Mike Zimmer really toy with Sam Darnold this week, but you, you, they should be in good position though. Right? Like they look like they're on the upswing. They move on from Ron Rivera and Cam Newton because it had reached the end of its road, a road that took him to the Superbowl at one point, but it had just reached the end. And then they had, they had to go all the way back

to the bottom because they had no talent, but you still see them as a team on the upswing that has drafted a bunch of players high and is taking a more offensive approach with Joe Brady and that kind of thing. Like even the teams that are struggling with this, the jets, they don't look so good, but, and if Zach Wilson clicks and Robert Sala clicks, you're going to be good. So even the teams that have struggled with this direction change, you even think there's a decent chance that they're the next two or three years. And that's my point about the Vikings is that you don't need to be the Jets. Jets have nobody to throw to, nobody to block. They, you know, Makai Becton is like their only player.

They have a long way to go and their quarterback needs to sit probably for a while. But in the Vikings case, I think it could be, how about, how about this? How about the chargers? Anthony Lynn, good coach, right? There's nothing wrong with Anthony Lynn. He won his last couple of games with Justin Herbert. They were, I think, 12 and four with, with Phillip rivers, but they just reached the point with Anthony Lynn and said, okay, I i think we we just need something more fresh and then and and we can't go with the same quarterback with his limitations and and river still played in the league and played fine but he had limitations that got them booted out of the playoffs in the first round right yeah yeah you know i i look at the v situation. Let's assume for the sake of the conversation that they move on from Cousins and Zimmer.

So they're flush with cash, probably have a young offensive mind. They've got all the resources in the world, generous ownership, great practice facility, great stadium. And there's no geographic disadvantage in football to being in Northern City. I mean, guys go to, you know, that's not a criteria like it is in the NBA. So they haven't really had a chance to spend that way as, you know, a free agency player, if they can open up some funds for this new regime, potentially down the road, you know, it could come together pretty quickly if they can, you know, combine that coach's influence onto the draft and then bring in some preferred free agents, then yeah, you could make a quicker turnaround. And we see quick turnarounds

all the time in the NFL, like the margin between being a seller dweller and a real like contender, it's pretty small. I i mean you've got the occasional browns who like sit in the doldrums for a decade but that's the exception um anyone the cardinals have turned things around rapidly in arizona so i think that that gives you hope you know the rams when they go to mcveigh quick turnaround uh stuff can happen like that that's that's crazy unexpected and it might only take a couple That's, that's crazy unexpected. And it might only take a couple of tweaks. No, that's a good point is that it shouldn't. If you have a functional franchise, you hire the right coach and these are ifs of course,

but it can change directions quickly. And that's why I thought the bills were the good example, because it's not like the bills were breadth of talent. It's not like they just had this horrible roster. They couldn't do anything with, they had talent to work with and then you filled in the rest with money, but they really just needed something else. Like they just needed a new person to be their head coach who has new ideas and hasn't been doing the same thing over and over. And they needed a quarterback that's big and giant and has a huge arm.

I mean, it's, this has always played well in the NFL. I mean, you know, Dan Marino, pretty big fella could throw it pretty hard, right? John Elway, not too bad himself. There was a time in the NFL though, where it sort of felt like you could get a guy who didn't have to move much with accuracy, like the Drew Brees kind of thing or Peyton Manning. And that became what everybody looked for. But after watching Lamar Jackson last night,

the way you have to win is you have to have your coach make the right decisions and say, Indy, how about not like handing off just like the Vikings did? Like just handing off, settling for a field goal and the guy misses it and I cheer. Good, you deserve that. You earned that when your kicker misses the kick It's just handing off, settling for a field goal. And the guy misses it. And I cheer. Good. You deserve that.

You earned that when your kicker misses the kick, because that's what you played for. You played for 70% chance as opposed to 100, which is if you get a first down. So anyway, but now you really see it, don't you? Like when you watch Lamar, when you watch Buffaloar when you watch buffalo when you watch the chargers it's it's like seeing the matrix where you're like i see all the zeros and ones for how the teams are going to do this and your team isn't doing it but they're not that far away from doing well you know what's going to happen in the next 10 years right i mean the the darwin principles are going to like kind of eliminate the traditional pocket

passer. I mean, teams are going to start or colleges, first of all, will start recruiting those kind of players to be their quarterbacks. There will be fewer prospects that are the statuesque Brady, Cousins, Breeze, Manning archetypes, and teams will be criticized for taking them too highly in drafts when they are available so that type of quarterback will become your day three project um and you know i i think more and more unlikely to be given big contracts or big investments in the nfl i just think that's the way it's going you're starting to see the mobile quarterback you know maybe inch closer to outnumbering the pocket passer it that is the trend and i'm pretty confident that it's a winning

trend i don't think it's just a fad do you i mean this is happening so you may as well get on board and it's not just it's not just mobile but it's also like laser beam. It's also guy who throws the ball crazy hard and is willing to take risks down the field and has the arm to do it. That doesn't have to be in a perfect platform. I mean, think about Kirk Cousins was pressured nine times on 37 dropbacks, I think against Detroit. And it still looked like he was kind of off balance too often throwing the ball and couldn't put juice behind it. Like there's just realities that exist with Tyra Taylor. There's realities that exist with Kirk cousins as your quarterback. And so now it sort of brings me back though,

because I've gotten down this futuristic road that you could go down. And I have galaxy brain to this entire stream, but Carolina, I mean, what, what should we be? What should we be thinking about this football game? I mean, we talked about maybe two weeks ago, how like the Cleveland game sort of represented a pivot point between we get to break these down hardcore each week and we don't. And we talk about big picture stuff all the time. Um, but I, I think that no matter what Vegas says about this one, that the Vikings should win it. I think you should go to Carolina and you should win.

And anything less than that is just like, then we've got our answer. Detroit was never going to give us our answer. And this is what I like about the Carolina game. Carolina, you will tell us. Well, Detroit almost did give us an answer. They almost closed the door, right? Yes, it's true. an answer they almost closed the door right I mean yeah um I've watched a lot of that um

Eagles game sorry I was gonna say Jets they lost to the Eagles last Sunday they look so bad I mean that football team at 3-0 was probably playing with house money a little bit and they have regressed back to the pack I I'm not sure that Darnold is going to hold up well against this Vikings pass rush. They get some stunts, some blitzes. It's the kind of quarterback that Mike Zimmer does well against. And I know Darnold can move a little bit, but he's doing it more. He's trying to run. I still think this is a good matchup for the Vikings defense against their offense. Now, the other side of the think this is a good matchup for the vikings defense against their offense now the other side of the coin could be a good matchup for the panthers defense against

vikings offense which is struggling panthers defense has talent they're playing really well points against is very low i think the only thing you can hope for if you're the vikings um or if you're a fan of the Vikings is that they like were so taken aback by the results against Detroit that they they kind of just like lean hard in the other direction they're aggressive they work the ball downfield they use their weapons in the passing game I think that could be like the necessary counter adjustment that makes this a, a win for Minnesota. And I'll say this, that we've had,

I think some very interesting discussions about what it is to be a winning team in the NFL versus what your team looks like, which is two and three. And it's not been above 500 since I was sitting in the Santa Clara press box to watch them play the San Francisco 49ers. That's basically the last time. So that's, you're not a winning team. You haven't been for a while. This would be, if they win this game, then I will put this on the shelf, this conversation for now. You go to three and three, it's sort of a reset button on the season. And then we go to Dallas and we start talking

about, here's how you beat Dallas. Here's how Dallas can beat you here's the great matchups of this game here's the coaching matchups then we get to do that thing again and then we won't circle back to this conversation for a while but if they lose this is the conversation and will be going forward is who can you take with you and how can you get there? How can you get to be a team that gets talked about of, Oh, well, they put up 44 points again on Sunday. And this is where, I think this is actually where Sam, tell me how you think about this. Cause you've been around this sports market more than me,

but I think that people who grew up playing Sega dreamcast with Dante Culpepper and Randy Moss or became a Vikings fan because of Randy Moss, this particular brand of football probably drives you more nuts than even other fan bases because you've seen what the other thing can do. And, you know, you have one year of where you were number one defense and that took you somewhere and that had limitations on it as well. But, that was with a backup quarterback good for you great season super fun all that stuff had a great moment but i think that those people who grew up at a certain time even if you go back in the day talk about like tommy kramer airing it out and things like that

i just feel like it's a franchise that just doesn't want to see this kind of football and it was reflected in the stadium the other day yeah yeah I think that the the generation that grew up with the purple people leaders quickly turned into and there's there's not a great nickname I guess three deep like late 90s Vikings three deep Reed Moss and Carter like that group what appealed to the next generation and it's that generation of fans that you know that, you know, they're in their 30s now. They're still pretty hardcore.

And they grew up in love with that offense. I mean, those teams turned so many fans into avid, passionate Vikings fans. That was maybe their first influence. Like if you were between seven and 17, that's probably your favorite team ever that you've watched and you want that back. And then you kind of got a little glimpse of it with Favre again for one year.

You got got teased with it. It's the running game is never going to be as attractive as the deep ball. And wow. I mean, the deep ball has transformed if you look at what they're now doing in Kansas City and Baltimore with the ability to buy time, call back to Tarkington maybe for all those purple people leader folks, but then the ability to throw it is unbelievable. So I think there's a high bar. I mean, there's a high bar in this market anyway to just win because the Vikings typically are a winning franchise. They've been right there for a lot of years. But there is an expectation, too, that you're going to have a good offense. And they have the pieces. They have the pieces on this team.

They have receivers that can sort of fulfill that. So I like your point that I think this market has gotten accustomed to being in a dome, being able to air it out, having that aerial attack that gets the crowd on its feet. And what I would say before we wrap up is just that, you know, I can be the guy that says, you know, prove me wrong with the sign or whatever. Tell me otherwise. And they can.

Like, you've got the chance to do it in the second half of the season. Of course, it has to require a win against carolina you're just not making the playoffs it's pretty simple but if you beat carolina in the second half of the season the offense goes from 16th and epa to fifth then i will say okay maybe i don't maybe i don't have this right maybe i maybe this isn't 2016 rex ryan there's a long season to go and that's going to be the sort of week to week like do you make the necessary changes to be a real contender in

the nfl or do you just kind of plot along with this same thing just like rex ryan did in buffalo let me i'll end the podcast with a tale you started with a tale. Okay, all right, story time. It's almost Halloween. The tale of the 2008 Minnesota Vikings, who had a much worse offense in terms of their quarterback and receiving talent, but they did have a very good running game. They also had a very good defense. They also had a hideous win against the Detroit Lions, who that season were winless. The Vikings needed a late field goal

to beat the Lions 12 to 10. Does this seem familiar to you? That got their record to three and three. And from there, they started playing a little better. Now they lost to the Bears going into the bye. So they were three and four at the bye but they came out second half of the season they beat Houston they beat Green Bay at home which was a pivotal win um then they they lost to the Bucks beat Jacksonville beat the Bears and they beat a good Cardinals team on the road signature win and they beat a good Giants team in uh in week 17 to make the playoffs so even though that team went one and done because Tavares Jackson, I think that is the kind of run that you're hoping for is that you figure it out after the bye

and you start putting up real points. And if I recall, I think Gus Farratt took that team over for a while. He did. And kind of like carried them through. So I'm not suggesting you need a quarterback change, but that is an example of a team that was

extremely underwhelming to start and um sort of figured it out as the season went along and and what is the moral of the story it's what happened the next year is what the moral of the story is with a quarterback with a big strong arm right so anyway well this has been a lot of fun sam and appreciate all of you who have watched uh we do this every Tuesday with Bring Me the News, but we do it every day at the Purple Insider podcast. So if this is your first time watching us, go find the Purple Insider podcast. I just recorded an episode with Morton Anderson this morning. So yeah, it was great.

It's great. It's super fun. So you'll enjoy it. And he talked about what it's like to kick a game winning field goal. So that was really cool. And we've got Jeremiah Searles, former Viking on there as well with our every Tuesday. So lots of stuff going on there. Purpleinsider.substack.com is where you can find our written work from TCO Performance Center. We go out there every day. So make sure you catch us

there. Thanks so much, everybody, for watching, and we will see you next week.