Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Vikings expect quicker passes with Wentz; a key Bengals injury (Part 1)

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Matthew Coller talks about the latest injury report and discusses Vikings-Bengals with Cincinnati podcaster Joe Goodberry of the Bengals on the Brain channel. Then Manny Hill joins to talk about what a successful season is now for the Vikings. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matthew Collar, here. And we have more Vikings injury report stuff to go over. We got some comments from Justin Jefferson and T.J. Hawkinson. And we have a good friend of mine, Joe Goodberry, who covers the Cincinnati Bengals for the Bengals on the Brain YouTube channel. He is coming up in just a little bit here. And then later on this evening at 7.30, Manny Hill joins. And we are going to talk about what makes a successful season for the Vikings trying to project and predict what happens from here. And Manny is making a list of his favorite Bengals.

So feel free to throw some random Bengals players into the chat. As always, the show, Purple Insider, presented by Fandul. And our FanDuel question of the day for tonight is Justin Jeff. 's over under for this game, 72.5 yards, how many yards do you think he should end up with if the offense works well against the Cincinnati Bengals? So how many yards will Justin Jefferson get if I told you, hey, it worked out. The offense was great. And off we go, how many yards would you think that that would mean for Justin Jefferson? Again, Fanduil over under is 72.5. But as has been the style recently. We got to start out with this injury report on the Viking side. So Christian

Derisaw did not practice today. Now, what we were told is that Derisaw is going to have during this season, playing or not playing, he is going to have off days. He's going to have rest days that are built into his recovery schedule as part of his overall bigger picture recovery from his ACL surgery last year. So this is one of those days that it's not necessarily an indicator of whether he is going to play on Sunday or not. If I had to guess, I'd say it's a pretty good chance that Mr. Darrisaw ends up being listed as questionable.

We will wait and find that out, but we were told that he is going to practice in full on Friday. Could be a good sign for the possibility of Darrisaw returning with two full practices this week. He's had a couple before, but I'm guessing that we just remain on Darissau watch. But when you first see, did not practice, you're like, what the heck? Why was he out of practice? Did he have a setback? No, it's going to be built into his schedule. As you'll see for many players throughout the season who have different nagging injuries and things like that will have veteran days or recovery days where they do not

participate in practice, especially guys who have been around, guys who are very talented. like Derrissau, but this one does set off a little more alarm bells if you don't have that information. So that's important to bring up. Now, the alarm bells should definitely be going off about Ryan Kelly. Did not practice for the second straight day, presumably still in the concussion protocol, which means it is becoming very unlikely that he plays. Maybe we'll get a Friday surprise tomorrow and they'll say, actually, he's off the concussion protocol. But I think that you would rather Ryan Kelly be 100% long term for the rest of this season, get fully healed, and then get back out there and not jump out there too early and end up having

another concussion. I mean, I think we have enough information over the years to know this pretty clearly that if you've had one, it's easier to get the next one. And that happened to Christian Derisaw a few years ago when he got hurt against Buffalo in 2022. They played him the very next week, got hurt again, and you don't want to see that from Ryan Kelly, especially when he's had a couple of concussions before in his career. So he was not practicing today. Justin's school, still out, would not expect him to be able to get back. Clearly, J.J. McCarthy was not practicing today with the ankle injury. And Grenard was a full go. Okuda was

a full go. So I expect that Jeff Okuda is going to be back and could actually play a big role in this game because this Cincinnati team likes to use three wide receivers. They're going to try to get the ball into the hands of their playmakers pretty quick, things like that. So I think he's going to, as a tackler, potentially have more value in this game than maybe he had in week one against the Chicago Bears. So he was a full go. Andrew Van Ginkle, though, still limited, which leaves it up in the air. If he practices in full on Friday, then I would expect him to play. but the fact that he hasn't had a full practice yet coming back from the concussion,

still a question mark as of Thursday right now. The fact that Harrison Smith has still not had a single full practice, that also leaves it up in the air, whether he will be ready. Maybe they don't want him to have a full practice before he gets out there, but you would think that he would have at least one before he's ready to go. And this is something that we need to mention with the defense that not, having Harrison Smith, even though I think, you know, the defense overall has it been a huge problem? No, I mean, maybe not quite as dominating as we would have expected it, but they can't

do certain things when Harrison Smith is not out there because it has to do with his instinct, with his preparation, with his ability to identify different tells that the offense has, different ways they motion, different ways they line up, tendencies and make very quick adjustments. And the way Brian Flores put it with that was that he could do some of these things that no one else would be able to do except for a couple guys in the league with this scheme. So they could use him back, but still limited in practice. And then a number of other players, Donovan Jackson with a wrist issue is something to watch. Josh Oliver still limited as well with that ankle. Again, his snap count is something to watch because I think they would have used him a lot more had he not been

banged up. So maybe not the most glowing on the Viking side injury report on Cincinnati's, though. Something showed up today that took me by surprise a little bit and could be significant in this game. And that is Cam Britt, I'm sorry, Cam Taylor Britt, who has a hamstring injury. He was limited in his first practice this week, but he did not practice today, which makes you think that there was possibly some type of regression with Cam Taylor Britt. And this is a guy as their corner who's not a household name, but he has played 93 coverage snaps. That's the third most on the Cincinnati defense. He is a starting corner for them, played over a thousand snaps last season and not a superstar,

but you're talking if he's out with an injury, getting down to the next corner for them, which is Josh Newton, who I'm just not familiar with really at all. A fifth round draft pick in 2024 has. played 500 snaps last year, didn't do so well. So their depth could be tested here for Cincinnati in a game where the Vikings are going to want to throw the ball. They're going to want to get the ball to Justin Jefferson. They're going to want to get some favorable matchups.

So Cam Taylor Britt, one of their top corners on the shelf with a hamstring injury as of today. And that could impact how Cincinnati tries to play defense, just like it did for Chicago a little bit and, you know, their backup ended up with a pick six, but you don't expect that on a week to week basis from the backup corners. We know this here, that cornerback depth is not an easy thing to come across. So that one will be worth watching on Friday's report. Now, let's get to some of the things that were said out at TCO Performance Center and then your questions. We'll take it up to right before 7 o'clock because I have a radio appearance.

So I'm going to be on two places at once with Henry Lake WCCO Radio. But I've got an interview from earlier today to bring you. And then Mani Hill will join back again live to continue answering your questions, having a good conversation then. So that's kind of the schedule for this evening. But let's get to what was said earlier today at TCO Performance Center by Justin Jefferson and T.J. Hawkinson. So I asked T.J. Hawkinson about the underneath passing because I see even when I just logged in here,

The first question, because of the headline is about the quick passing, was why weren't they doing it before? The answer is that they were. They were calling quick plays. And McCarthy did throw a fair number of quick passes. It just didn't work, whether that was some details that you can spot on the film or whether that was McCarthy's lack of execution. The quick game has been a major issue. And West Phillips did say that that's something that they're really focused on. So I asked T.J. Hawkinson about the underneath game and how they can get that going.

What's the key to getting some of the underneath stuff going for you guys? You know, obviously I think, you know, the last couple of games, you know, underneath it have been tough. We've, you know, had some things go on. And yeah, I mean, I think, you know, it's just rhythm and timing. That's really all it is. You know, when you're talking, you know, shorter routes and things like that, you've got to get the ball out. You've got to be where you're at, when you're supposed to be there. You've got to make decisions fast.

You've got to do a lot of different things. And, you know, you, that just comes with, you know, time and doing things. And so I think we'll get that going. I think, you know, I have no worries. You know, JJ has done that all off season, was been able to. able to get things rolling. And I think we've, we've been trying to take some shots. And, you know, obviously we're just one play away,

all 11 doing their job. And really, that's what it comes down to in football is just, you know, being all 11 doing their job at the same time. And it really just takes one play. And you just don't know what play it is. That's the beauty about football is you never know which play. And that's why you've got to do it every single one.

So yeah, I think we'll get that rolling. I'm not too worried about it. My job is my job. I'm going to try to do it as best as I can, you know, as often as I can. Two things I thought were interesting there from what T.J. Hawkinson said, which was, he said, it's a rhythm and timing type of offense. And I think we could all say pretty clearly that the rhythm has not been there nor has the timing, whether that was because of wrong routes or whether it was issues with the quarterback not seeing where he was supposed to go with the ball, the lack of anticipation. the blocking. There's lots of different factors, but it clearly has not worked. And when you hear the rhythm and timing part, you're saying to yourself, well, you know, that has been an issue starting with the quarterback. And then the other part that stood out was when Hawkinson said J.J. McCarthy was

able to do that during the summer. They've played two football games. And it is very true that during the summer, I thought the quick game looked fine. He was getting the ball to Hawkinson a lot. He was getting the ball, especially to Jordan Addison and not having him has been, I think, a major factor in this and why they haven't been as successful when they've gotten into the season. But the fact that you have to go back and you can't say, you know, hey, McCarthy's done, you know, a really good job and we've got to help him out. It's more of like, well, he did it in the summer. So, and, you know, not that I'm saying Hawkinson was sort of low key throwing him under the bus or something. That's not what I'm saying. It's just that that was in there as, you know, we, I think we can do it.

And he was doing it before, but then we just didn't get it out of them. And I think it's a pretty easy conclusion to come to that, and look, I've watched both games through. I've seen the other mistakes by the other players. I've seen the blocking mistakes and all of that stuff. But the quarterback is where it all begins and getting it out of his hands is where it all begins. And when he's saying in timing and back in the summer and things like that, it's kind of clear that we know the issue here of not being able to get the football out

with the quick game. So there's more indications of that from Justin Jefferson's comments. And again, I don't want to make this sound like either of these veteran players was taking shots at McCarthy. They were absolutely not. And you'll hear Jefferson, you know, mention like, hey, you know, I'm not saying anything bad about JJ here. But there's almost, there was almost a little feeling in the commentary today of sort of relief that someone is playing quarterback who's played quarterback before in the NFL. And you'll kind of hear that a little bit with some of the things Justin Jefferson said. He just has the experience, you know, just going out there and being able to really, you know,

run the show. Coach, like to call him the point guard because he's been in the game for a little while now, of course, him doing the things that he have already done. You know, this is just another game to him. And then, of course, him being able to be in practice last week and have a couple of reps with the ones last week. It's really just another day out there with just another quarterback. I mean, I don't feel like we missed the beat. You know, of course, it's the next man up.

But we feel confident in anybody that goes out there, especially with the guys that we have out there on that field. You just said that right now he's just working on building chemistry with Carson as quickly as possible. What does that look like for you? Really just going out there and just being myself and going through the motion is just like normal. I mean, the timing is something that we're going to work on and continue to work on. But, you know, he has that, he has that experience and he has that vet mentality to really throw to anybody, regardless of how fast or how the way they move and just seeing them out there.

He knows, he knows our speed and he knows our body types. and he knows the way we run our route. So it's just good to go out there and to have, you know, a great practice like today. And, you know, I'm definitely excited for this game. So again, not jabs or anything, but when talking positively about Carson Wentz, the number one thing here is the guy knows what he's doing playing quarterback. And that is something that you can't say for JJ McCarthy because he hasn't played a whole lot of quarterback before. and he alludes to that of not trying to take any shots at McCarthy in this later clip.

Of course, you know, JJ is a new quarterback. He's young. He's still learning. He's still, you know, developing in different ways. You know, just like you said, Carson has that veteran mentality. So he kind of knows the coverages, you know, where people are going to be at, where the ball should be at. So it's a little bit different mentality. Nothing on the downside of Jay. That's just him learning the game and him being, and Carson being a part of the game for so long. That just comes with time, you know, that you can't really rush that. That's just like me, you know, as a rookie. I wasn't the same as I am now. So just that development that training your brain, training, mentally training your brain to really see the coverages

and see, you know, the things that you need to see before they even happen. Right there at the end, training your brain to see the things that you need to see before they even happen again sort of sounds like a hey our quarterback wasn't a hundred percent ready for running this entire offense as a 22 year old with two training camps and no actual experience outside of a couple preseason games which has been a common question from viking fans is should they have played more in the preseason i thought the answer was yes at the time i think you probably you know daily listeners would remember me saying, I'd like to see him play a whole first half of a couple of games here.

That didn't happen. The explanation was reasonable enough where you'd have to play a bunch of other starters. You'd have to play the starting offensive line and you don't want to get him hurt. And O'Connell has always put more emphasis on the joint practice. But even the joint practice, it's not really the same as much as it is a great simulation of the team playing a real defense. They can't really hit you. and it's not going full out trying to feed your family, which is what those defenses are doing.

In a training camp practice, it's not quite to that level. And I think McCarthy has struggled with trying to pick apart what these defenses are doing to him when he's taking the snap and looking out there and trying to get the ball quick out. It's like it always sounds good to have a young quarterback, hey, have him get the ball out quick, have him do a bunch of quick game reads and so forth. and then you realize that that stuff is almost always built on timing, on three steps, bang.

That's things supposed to be out of there. And we just haven't seen that from him. And it sounded like from the comments there from Hawkinson and from Jefferson that it's a little bit relieving to have a quarterback coming in for this game that I think they really need to win. Must win in week three when you're one and one feels like a little over dramatic to me. but at the same time, it's kind of close because of just where you could see this whole thing unraveling and going if they can't find a way to beat the Cincinnati Bengals. And when they're practicing with a quarterback who knows the timing and the speed of the NFL, who knows how to read the defenses, who knows how to get rid of it.

And this isn't a second guess or anything of McCarthy coming out there. It's not a accusation of while the coaching staff, shouldn't they know that, he wasn't going to be ready for certain things. And the answer is there's no real way to tell because if you go out there every day for training camp and you watch and you're trying to figure it out of, well, does this look like it's supposed to look? One of the things that I thought was most impressive through training camp was McCarthy getting rid of the football.

I thought he did a good job with that a lot of times, not every single rep, but I thought he did by the end of camp, a good job of that of even just not going broke, taking a profit, underneath throws, completions, we mentioned all the completions he had in that training camp practice against the Patriots, but it's just not the same. It just isn't the same. And there's no way to really know how he's going to deal with that. And then not only that, but Justin Jefferson didn't get to practice with him. Hawkinson did, but Addison's not here, Thielen didn't, throwing routes on air in the offseason. It's just not what playing in a real NFL game is. And Carson, Wentz, I think coming in, gives McCarthy an opportunity to see the same stuff that he's run,

now run by Carson Wentz, and get a sense for what his timing looks like, what his reads look like, and how he's going about it. And then we'll see how the rest of all of this plays out, whether Wentz plays great, whether he's average, whether McCarthy's coming back next week or in five weeks or in 10 weeks. We just really can't have a good way to figure that out because we've got to see how the offense executes with somebody who has been in the league before. So I think that the picture has been painted pretty clearly after the last week of analysis of what happened and McCarthy's injury and his performance and all those different things that we've been through kind of multiple times now. But just getting that sense from the past catchers when they're talking about, yeah, well, you know, he needs to be able to read the defenses and he needs to understand like how we run our routes. the speed we're going and then things like that,

that stuff that Carson Went should be able to come in and give them at least a chance. But this is the tough part about playing a young quarterback because somebody like Brock Purdy came in as a rookie and he was older and he thrived right away in Kyle Shanahan's offense. And some of you have brought up, you know, Max Brosmer. And in this area specifically of the game now, Max Brosmer would not be running his own read and run for a

20-yard touchdown. That's for sure. And there's a few of the throws with the velocity and the arm strength that you wouldn't see from Brosmer. But his strength is getting rid of the ball. It's reading things. It's throwing with anticipation, like all those things. And so sometimes quarterbacks are a little, even if they have a limited upside, they're a little bit better fit for this. And other quarterbacks need more time and more development to get fully comfortable. we are talking 40-something passes so far from J.J. McCarthy. But knowing what we know, now if Wentz plays pretty well, they win the game 21-17 and he's okay,

then where do you take this from here? If he's just okay, but you've won and the offense looks a little bit more like an offense, do you say, all right, McCarthy, you're back in? Did you see what Carson did? Now you just go do that? Or would you rather say, we needed more practice? practice time. We needed more development. We needed more work with him because he was always going to be a little bit more of a project type of quarterback. And they knew that. That was why they got

Sam Darnold last year. They just didn't anticipate the injury. And then he looked pretty good down the stretch of training camp. They tried to bring Daniel Jones here back. He was here, but tried to bring him back with an offer to have maybe a backup situation. I think the move to send howl away to the Eagles and get Wentz was to give themselves an option, and I know this is injury related, but give themselves an option if they needed somebody else in this situation to step in and give them a chance to win. Carson Wentz at this moment does that, and where that takes them, I do not know. So questions, thoughts, comments, let me get to a few of them. And then Joe Goodberry, who covers the Bengals, is going to join the show. C. Bakes 27 says,

with just how underwhelming the offensive line has been, do you think that we need to start asking questions about the O-line coach, or do you attribute it most to injuries? I would definitely attribute that to injuries. I was texting with an offensive line source today. Very knowledgeable source. It was Jeremiah Searle because Jeremiah knows more he's in that world. I mean, this is, you know, we're all listening to the classical music,

but he is the composer. There's only a few people who understand truly offensive line play, and he's one of them. And so, of course, Jeremiah had seen the meme out there. It's basically become a meme at this point that Ed Ingram has a very good PFF grade for Houston. And so it's like, wait a minute, did we just give away, you know, the next Steve Hutchinson? Naturally, I think the answer is no. And I made a milkshake bet with Jeremiah that Ed Ingram is going to finish with a PFF grade lower than 65. So we'll see what happens there.

But I think that when we talk about PFF grades and offensive line performance, something that gets left behind pretty often is context. And context might just be who's in the game. Blake Brando last year is a reasonably good guard until he doesn't have Christian Darrasaw. Then he's not. And I think that this offense is also not the easiest for offensive linemen. There's a lot of straight drop back where you're sending out four or five options. and you're not giving a ton of help to the offensive line.

There's a lot of shifts and changes and checks and all those things that they have to do at the line of scrimmage that the quarterback is asked to handle. I think it's a mental workload for the quarterback, which also means for the line that's constantly having to make a lot of adjustments, and they pass the ball a lot, which means lots of dropbacks, lots of pass protection reps, lots of opportunities to have a negative play in there, are lots of opportunities for the opponent to dial up all their stunts and twist.

And somebody sent me a note earlier about asking if Kevin O'Connell's offense has been solved or something. And, you know, I don't think that the last four games going back to last year and then into this year says to me, oh, they just figured them all out. And it's all said. I really think that it's probably a lack of execution from the quarterback and from the offense. but I would not fully discount that other teams watched the Rams game.

And when they were trying to figure out, how are we going to face the Kevin O'Connell offense, you can bet more than a milkshake that they all watch the Rams game and say, all right, how did they do it? And one of the ways is just deception. I still think that Jonathan Gannon for the Arizona Cardinals was the one that came up with the best plan against the Vikings. And it's a lot of deception.

It's a lot of delay blitz. It's a lot of guys going to look like they're going to blitz, dropping back, stuff like that. And then there's a lot of stunts and different movements up front. I think I saw a stat from someone that the Vikings got stunted last year more than anybody else in the NFL. And when you have a rookie left guard in the first week, this didn't happen to him too much and he's fine.

He grades really well. The second week, they went after him with a lot of this different movement and twists and things up front and stuff that's more deceiving and not just man versus man. And that's what the offensive line position is a lot now. And the Vikings are facing a lot of that. If you are running an offense that is under center, it does a lot. And the Vikings do a good amount of under center, but under center a lot and a lot of play action, a lot of outside zone and rollouts and things like that, you can help your quarterback

quite a bit and also help your offensive line when it comes to those PFF grades and pressures. So there's context to just about everything. Everyone I've ever heard has spoken highly of Chris Cooper as an offensive line coach. I think that he was in part responsible for turning around a unit that had gotten into a really bad place and has made them over the last couple years reasonably good. If Derisaw plays week one, they have almost a flawless week. So we can't forget that either that I believe they had six total pressures on McCarthy and four of them were one guy. And when your left tackle is struggling, there's no coaching it. There's no coaching point that you can give a left tackle other than just hang on for dear life, my friend. That's it.

So I think I think the injuries are a much bigger part of it than anything else. But I also think that there might be some merit to teams getting a feeling based on that Rams game of what was going to work. And Rahim Morris comes from Los Angeles. I mean, you think he watched the game? You think he studied that? You think he threw some of the same stuff at him? absolutely bet that he did. And it is on this coaching staff to find some answers there. But there is no answer for backup players. There's really not. And we know that over the years where it's like, you know, if they have Derisaw and O'Neill and Ingram and Cleveland and, you know, whoever, you know, there's what, they coach

the tackles well, but they don't coach the guards or there's no answer for someone picking up Garrett Bradbury and throwing him at the quarterback. And New England eventually will find that out too. I know he's graded pretty well. over the first few weeks. But I also think some teams are throwing screens. And I think that they're running bootlegs. And I think that there are some teams and you're going to see it from Cincinnati who 60% of their plays or something like that, 50, 40% of their plays are just the easiest stuff for everybody. And the Vikings haven't been in that position because they've been playing from behind, which also really hurts you.

When you play from behind and you're just, the other team is doing everything that they can do. So, you know, I think a little bit of this week has been kind of a, like the Anchorman thing. Like, are you just looking at stuff and saying that you love it? Like, in this case, the opposite. Like, are we just kind of looking at stuff and being like, is that it? Is what about this? And, yeah, so I think they're in a good spot with the coaching. But I also think that if you don't have your superstar, then you're never going to get the performance that you'll

like. Let's see. William, when does the final injury report come out? That'll be tomorrow, but there's very likely to be several guys listed as questionable. I guess we'll see that. Shift, he says, believe in KOC running quick game when I see it. Well, this did happen, did happen when he first got here in 2022. Now, was that KOC running quick game or was that Kirk Cousins? I can get you the number on that because I think it might have been Kirk Cousins running more of the quick game than anything else. But let me see what the average depth of target was for Cousins in 2022, because I seem to remember him getting the ball out of his hands pretty quickly.

Cousins was 11th in terms of the shortest passes in 2022. So he did have a lot and only average 7.1 yards per attempt. So he did have a lot of quick throws that season. I don't think it's that O'Connell is incapable. I think that with J.J. McCarthy, all of his best throws have been either deep or in the intermediate area. And when your timing isn't very good. And Kirk was really good at this where if the Reed was there and he saw it, he would go bang, bang, bang, bang, throw. Like step, step, throw. You know that he would have all the steps right and everything else. And guys would be

where he thought and he could throw with timing and anticipation. It's why it worked a lot, I think, for Kevin O'Connell and Kirk Cousins when it came to the quicker passes. I can take a look here at what his statistics were on those quicker passes in 2022. I think 23, he started to push the ball down the field more under Kevin O'Connell because that's what O'Connell wanted. But he still wasn't throwing a massive number of deep shots. Let's see. So it was, yeah, in terms of quick game, zero to nine yards, 45% of Kirk Cousins passes in

2022 were that and he completed 80% of them and then in 2023 it was actually 47% and he completed 82% of those so it was a it was a very high percentage when kirk was playing quarterback and when you had darnel that was a little more downfield a little more intermediate little more into tighter windows because he had better arm strength they just nobody really knows what mccarthy is going to be in terms of his strengths i think we all know know that Kirk was good with timing, that he could throw a slant really well, that he could throw a little in and out or a little outbreaking route to T.J. Hawkinson really well, but a lot of that stuff was based on not only timing, but also chemistry. Cousins and

Hawkinson had been around for a long time. Hawkinson, his main skill was kind of getting to space. But you have to understand where that space is. And instead, it was just a little bit against the falcons of chicken with your head cut off where you're not understanding anything when you're dropping back there. And that's kind of how it looked. So that's, that is when they talk about experience. That is a lot of what they're talking about. Mama says, I'm worried if we keep losing Harrison Smith may decide to retire midseason before seeing the field and not deem it worth it. I wouldn't want to go there just yet. He is continuing to practice. You do start to wonder if he's not playing this week. Like, when is this going to happen? Because he wasn't placed on

i are so when is this recovery going to kind of come to fruition here um but it's concerning because he's just such the head of the snake and when you spend your entire off season trying to make you know making him the head of the snake and then you have him three quarters of the way through camp out and then not being able to come in now and direct the show then you're going to ask him to to kind of drop back in and start doing that but they're not working at full capacity in fact last week, I would say it wasn't even close. The fact that they were in, and I've seen some of the numbers that don't really look all that good for the Vikings defense the last two weeks, but, you know, especially last week,

you're without Harrison and you're without even Okuda plays a role on this team and without Van Ginkle, without Cashman. It's the same sort of deal with the offensive line. Like, there's no coaching when you just have a bunch of players who usually aren't supposed to be out there or a bunch of guys who aren't in the roles that they're supposed to be in. and you saw, I think, the value of Cashman as a run-stopper when Wilson was in there. Wilson's a veteran player. He's very good in his role.

But Cashman's an elite run-stopping linebacker. That was part of the idea was that he was going to take care of a lot of those things that maybe the defensive line couldn't lock in like maybe they did last year. But Cashman, when he was in there, he's chasing down running backs left and right. So these injuries, what's so frustrating about them is that we're always like solution oriented in our discussions, whether it's me or you. We're always looking for answers. Like you're asking, well, is it the offensive line coach? Like is it?

And I'm asking, is it quick game? Is it this or is it that? Right. We're always looking for the answers. But sometimes that's the frustrating part about injuries is the answer is right there in front of us. We just, you know, I'll have to kind of work around that conversation. because otherwise it just ends the discussion. Like, oh, well, injury, and let's sit here silently frustrated.

I mean, otherwise, you know, where do we go with that discussion? And we also have to talk about how they're going to work around these things in order to resolve them themselves because they can't just sit silently either. Shifty BTW says, no, Wence is a veteran. But Hendrickson, Trey Hendrickson is going to go up against the third string left tackle, possibly, yeah, if Darisaw doesn't play. and a young backup center. Throw, throw, throw, throw might not be the ideal plan.

That I agree with you for sure. They have to find a way to get ahead of the sticks and run the football with Jordan Mason. Not having Aaron Jones kind of reminds me a little bit of when the Lions didn't have David Montgomery last year. And I remember saying going into the game, like that actually might be good for them to miss Montgomery for a while because then Gibbs just gets all the carries and he's better. and that I think is the case with Jordan Mason as well. And you're right about Hendrickson and in just a minute, going to talk to Joe Goodberry about Trey Hendrickson and their defense as soon as I have to go on the radio here, which actually is right now.

So let's bring you a conversation here with my friend Joe Goodberry, great analyst covering the Cincinnati Bengals. I will be back momentarily when after the interview with Manny Hill and we'll break it all down then. So here you go, Joe Goodberry. folks there's no way to prepare yourself for hair loss when it happens and you either end up frustrated or in denial but i promise you that there is help and it is simple and easy through hymns you could take the next step with confidence access treatments that are made with clinically proven ingredients like finesteride and monoxidil to stop hair loss and regrow hair within three to six months no waiting rooms no hoops just ingredients with a track record of results hymns or offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that work, including choose, oral medication, serum, sprays, whatever works for you. You shouldn't have to go out of your way to feel like yourself.

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Prescription required. See the website for important safety information. All right, we welcome back into the show. Joe Goodberry, who is Bengals on the brain on YouTube for my money, one of the best Bengals analysts out there, a go-to for me. As you probably remember, if you've been listening to the show all summer long, that I had Joe on the show. We did a way too early preview, and it did turn out to be way too early because now

the two starting quarterbacks that we expected for this game, Joe, are not actually playing in the game. So I will say, though, it has to be much more crushing on Cincinnati's side than a sprained ankle that can keep J.J. McCarthy out for a couple of weeks. And to tell you the truth, when the schedule came out, I looked at week three and said, you know, I haven't seen Joe Burrow in person since 2021. Like, I'm excited. Burrow versus Flores. Like, let's go. US Bank Stadium. And the, as Mike Malarky once said, the sales out of the winter. Yeah, that I was also excited for those same things.

I wanted to watch Burrow and Flores and go at it and just watch Burrow again because that's fun. And instead of listening to depressing songs the last few days here, a lot of Simon and Garfunkel. And, you know, I'm sitting here like, not again, really are we here again? And it's funny because I didn't think Vikings McCarthy too much until about Wednesday. So yesterday and I'm like, oh, yeah, I'm going to talk to Matthew. they're in a similar situation, their quarterback's down and pretty much two years in a row. It's not season ending for you guys, but it stinks. It stinks all around to not see it's such the, it's the main course of why we watch football

as the quarterback and the development on your end or the guy that we think is an elite quarterback and we're robbed of it. We don't get to see it. And I wish that there was some way that we could analyze this as in like, you know, we always look for actionable things from the team. what what does this team need to do better what does this guy need to do better that's always what we're doing here and with this it's just like i don't know joe needs to have his toe work right like i don't really you know what i mean like well yeah he does take hits and he does scramble around the pocket but

it's not like he's the first quarterback to ever do that this guy has just had some really bad luck when it comes to the injuries they're freak injuries right like the first one your knee gets hit it happens that it's happened to every single quarterback tom brady had it right we've had it twice in the last 20 years with Carson Palmer and Joe Burrough. So that stinks. But and then the next one is the wrist injury that no quarterbacks had to deal with with a torn ligament in the wrist and surgery. That's typically a tennis thing. I think we talked about that during the summer. And he came back and he was good last year. And it was fine. But it's bad luck to have that happen. It's a rare thing. And then the, the turf toe, which is a terrible name for actually tearing a

ligament in your big toe to the point where it's not working, right? If it's a grade three, I listen to Kurt Benkirt talk about it. He's because he had the same thing, but on his right foot. So that's where you're driving. It's on Burroughs left toe. It's a snap of that tendon. And it can be like an Achilles tear where that tendon pulls back completely and they have to go and surgically reattach it. And he was like, oh, yeah, Burroughs not coming back at all.

I had this. And it takes a long time to come back. And so we're holding out hope. The Bengals said they're not closing the door on it. I do think there is conversation, though, about getting your quarterback. hit as often as the Bengals have with Burrow. And honestly, watching the game last week, the Falcons, Vikings game, McCarthy was taking a beating back there.

And they've got some offensive line issues. And typically that scheme does more to protect their quarterback with more play actions and screens and things like that to get the ball out quickly. Bengals don't do a ton of those things. They just have Burrough dropping back and throwing the ball against the porous offensive line, who a lot of linemen lately have come out and said, it's a tough job to block for that offense because you're dropping back to really pass protect for two foot two and a half plus seconds often too often that you're going to look

bad so there is maybe some changes that the the team can make around him but burrow is burrow and you got to let him cook you got to let him do what he does best and some of that is scrambling running around making plays and being a tough dude in the pocket right he's said before that he's willing to hang in a little bit longer to take the hit if he can make the throw that he wants to make and i think that joe burrow suffers from the same thing kind of sam darnold did which was I'm okay with getting my body smashed. If I can hang with this for just a little bit longer. And then when Sam Darnold tried to do that against the Los Angeles Rams of the playoffs,

they said, we are happy to smash your face in. We'll make that trade. Right, exactly. And that's happened to Burrow and in some games as well. But, well, we're on to Cincinnati, though, with the actual football game here. And it's probably a great place to start with Jake Browning,

this supporting cast, this coaching staff. You know, when it happened in 2023, the Vikings were on the wrong side of Jake Browning and a magical comeback in the fourth quarter with one of the coolest catches I've ever seen in my life from T. Higgins. The thing about Jake Browning is that even though he's Jake Browning and there's physical limitations there, you have probably one of the most competent backup quarterbacks in the NFL

and maybe at least he will get the ball out a little bit faster having some familiarity with Jake Browning. I know that he is a high IQ quarterback, very competitive, and he's not a guy that you should ever just like take for granted in a game. But what have you seen from that season and then last week from Jake Browning? So our first exposure to Jake Browning was the Bengals drafting John Ross and seeing who is this terrible quarterback at Washington? And Ross is bailing him out making these plays down the field. And we're like, man, that Jake Browning dude is terrible. Well, some years later, he ends up on the Bengals roster and his preseason is a disaster.

And he doesn't look good. And that ends up being 2023 where Burrow goes down. And the Bengals actually signed Trevor Simian because Browning didn't look good. And they're like, all right, we need a veteran quarterback to back up Joe Burrow while his calf is an issue. Simeon was terrible as well. But Browning gets inserted. And early in that 2023, they drop them into the Joe Burrow offense, which is dropped

back, make reads, make the correct read, get the ball out quickly to your targets and keep functioning that way. It was a disaster. Like that first game against the Steelers, they absolutely killed the Bengals and Browning looked horrendous. And we're all just like, yeah, this is going to be a long season. The very next week, they scrapped that. And they're undercentered. And they're running play action. They're running wide zone runs. The stuff they have not done all year long. There's the screen percentage went up. The quick short throws went up. It was just they understood you can't just drop Browning in there. And maybe you didn't have time to completely revamp the game plan so quickly

after Burrow went down in 2023. And I get it. So it took a couple weeks. So let's see how fast it happens this time. But I think in that first game versus the Jags last week, instantly the screen percentage went up. Technically, Joe Burrow has not thrown a screen yet in 2025. Browning through enough that he'd be considered if he had enough of times to be the seventh

most screen quarterback of 2025. So, you know, major difference there. They're getting a ball out of his hands and into probably Jamar Chase as often as possible. But 2023 ended up being statistically pretty strong for Browning. They go four and three with him. He ends up with like a 99 quarterback reigning. I think it was 98.9. Efficiency number is pretty good. 70.3 completion percentage that year to finish. Like that's that's really good. It saved Zach Taylor's job in a lot of ways. I think a lot of people at that time were really frustrated with the lack of creativity. They call it all the lack of the screens, the play actions,

all these things. And it was being pinned down. on Zach Taylor. And I think through 2020, we figured out it's not really. It's probably that Joe doesn't like it. And clearly we can see Zach can scheme up in offense if he has to. And he did under Browning. He did a great job. So I expect to see that again. I expect we're going to see more scheme throws, more schemeed offense, taking it out of his hands, not making him have to put on a cape and be the hero. And instead putting it on your skill positions. And I think that makes sense, right? You have a good skill position group around Jake Browning. let him do it. I will say for in terms of difference between he and Burrow because you're getting

good production, but they're not the same player, right? There's a difference between good quarterback play and good quarterback production. They'll get good quarterback production from Jake Browning because he's willing to just throw it. The things that that Burrow sometimes, he'll drop back and he'll see it like, that's not right. Let me make a play dance in the pocket and get it to the right guy. You got to have that in today's NFL, right? But Browning will see it and he's like, I'm chucking it. And he threw three picks last week and against the Jags. But he also threw a bunch of balls to let their, let his receivers do their thing and they're good players. So let them do their thing. So it's a fun brand of football.

It's a scary brand of football. But there's a lot of exciting games in 2023. And chief amongst them was the Vikings game that I just rewatched and posted on X at Joe Goodberry and then did some commentary to go back and watch. So if you haven't seen it, check that out. It's a good time. Well, that was a game where Zach Taylor kind of figured out some things about Brian Flores defense. and then they just kept running deep digs, maybe like 15 yard in routes every single play. It seemed like there was some internet debate yesterday about coaches who called the same play over and over again.

And this goes back to watching a lifetime of football with my dad where he'd be like, if it's working, keep doing it. And I'm like, I agree with that. And that's what they did in that game. I think Flores will be a little more ready for it this time around. But with Browning, I went back and looked here, 25% of his throws were behind the line of scrimmage in 2023. That's like Bo Nix college numbers where you're throwing lots of screens, lots of quick stuff.

But you know, it's a funny world in the NFL right now because I feel like the universe of Aaron Rogers and Peyton Mannings, then Tom Brady, and that was everybody's dream as a quarterback. I'm going to stand in the shotgun and I'm going to make checks and changes at the line of scrimmage. and I'm going to run the whole show. But that doesn't really work for too many guys right now. I mean, Josh Allen can do whatever the heck Josh Allen wants to do. But even with Patrick Mahomes over the last couple of years, they've limited his ability to just stand back there and then run around and take deep shots.

The easy button stuff, and we've talked about it a lot here with the Vikings not throwing enough screens for J.J. McCarthy and having him drop straight back and running empty protections at times that, you might be asking Matthew Stafford to do. I feel like there's an effect here of almost the easy button stuff is called that for a reason and the coach being forced to do it by the fact that he has a worst quarterback. In some ways, I think can help this Bengals offense because the offensive line looks like

it's pretty mushy up there. I was just getting to this point watching the rest of the league where I was like, I blame the Bengals and Burrow for watching some of these other offenses just drop back straight out shotgun and just trying to have their quarterback pick apart defenses because the Bengals have had such success at it, right, from early borough, just implanting the LSU offense in 2021, right? And then carrying that and scrapping a lot of their under center wide zone stuff because it just looked who just joined it to have two different offenses running, right? So they scrapped the one and just went full spread. And it worked. And the Bengals have had a good offense. That's the part. Like they

started off slow this year. They've started off slow every year towards the midpoint and towards the end the season, that drop back offense is phenomenal. And it's high efficiency, high EPA. They look good. And so it's hard to criticize it too much. The criticism is that you're making Burrow do so much and drop back so often, take so many hits. He looks drained at times after games dropping back 40 times and maybe five of them are easy button plays. And there's 35 others where he is deciphering pre-snap, post-snap. And it's just, it looks like a lot on a lot of guys. And then if you make a postseason run, I mean, you're just adding to that toll. So I'm watching around the league and you're right, there's other teams that are doing it.

And I'm like, even the chiefs who had such a great scheme for so many years and I think they lost some of the weapons. So they can't get as deep. They can't do some of the things they want to do. Kelsey's not the same guy. Their running game is a shell of what it used to be at times. So now they've got Mahomes dropping back, a ton of true past sets lately. Their line is getting killed in some ways. I think they're better, you know, on the interior than the Bengals are. Josh Simmons looks like a good player. But it's interesting to watch the evolution around the league. And I was just getting to this point before Burrow got hurt where I was thinking,

I'm blaming the Bengals for this. The teams are looking at what they're doing. And I don't think it's right. I think you need these easy button throws, these Shanahan style. I think McConnell is one of the guys I look at and say that normally they can do that. Maybe they weren't running the screens right now. But I do think the Vikings are one of those offenses that I would like to emulate a little bit more of. Yeah, you know what's interesting about that is I feel like over the last couple of years,

what I've seen is so many teams running more stunts and interior blitzes than probably ever before. And that's where when you're dropping straight back and even the other night. So the Vikings have a strip sack. And on the play, Atlanta, they sent a guy fake blitzing, which messes up Brian O'Neill's That it was, it was sort of like that. Yeah, it was a little bit like that. It was kind of like take one step and then drop back as opposed. to that sort of the coffee houses where

you kind of delay. Oh, that was the Texans Bucks game where they did. Lamontivate David, I think, dropped back and then came down. So I was confusing the two Monday night games. Yeah, but you're even seeing this in college. Now they're starting to do some of these things. And so the guy just kind of fakes coming on a blitz

and then drops back into coverage and that messes up the tackle. And then like the number of straight dropbacks where there is something that goes wrong on the offensive line because of the amount of confusion, the amount of interior rush who are absolute freaks these days, the amount of linebackers who have great speed

who are getting to the quarterback really quick, I just think it's really, really hard to live in that world where you're dropping straight back, and it might actually help them to be forced not to. But the Vikings have had a bit of an Achilles heel here in the first two weeks, which is stopping the run, especially against Bejohn Robinson. And I know that Chase Brown is not Bejohn Robinson

and the human being with the rock in his hands, makes a difference. But can the Cincinnati Bengals run the ball against this Viking defense? Great question. You could have ended it just before he said Vikings defense. Can the Bengals run the ball? Great question. We're all asking the same thing. Not only are they not consistently trying to run the ball with Burrow. So we'll have to see that changes. Right. I expected to under Browning. Can they get a push up front? It's they look so disjointed. Somehow this running game got worse through two games. And I don't know how that's possible. I mean, they fired the offensive line coach who was also the run game coordinator in the offseason.

They didn't replace run game coordinator on their staff. So I think it's just more of an effort from the whole unit, the whole coaching staff. But it's disjointed. It's, it's broken. It's the guys up front, the old line are not running in sync. They're not working together very well. They're not passing guys off very well. They're not getting to the second level.

They're not getting a lot of push. Everything that you can say about a run game, especially up front is bad. And I like Chase Brown. And I like them a ton. I hope they figure out and make an, and really put an emphasis on figuring out this run game. Maybe Burrow does come back. And in the meantime, you've kept your head above water and you've got a run game.

That would be best case scenario. I would love to see that. I don't know. I really don't know if the Bengals know what they're doing up front at all. There's really nothing that gives me any hope right now that they can scheme up a run game. So if you're looking for a glimmer of hope there, it's that the Bengals are probably looking at second and eight plus and then probably third and eight plus if they don't complete a pass on that second down.

maybe it's a screen out second down since they run so many of those. But point is, it's bad. Well, and that really does play to the Vikings favor because you have two great interior rushers and edge players who can get to the quarterback, but the run-stopping sacrifice that they made by moving Harrison Phillips, not bringing back Jonathan Bullard, is that that is going to be a weakness, but if the Bengals can't run anyway, we also know that if Dalton Reisner is on your offensive line, you're not going to have a lot of success running. He is a good pass protector.

He's a veteran player. And when Cincinnati signed him, I went like, yeah, they kind of have to at this point. But there's a reason why the guy is always unsigned into September every year is because he truly is about the worst run blocking guard in the NFL. And I think that that's going to be an X factor for this game. But it's all going to come down to can the Vikings cover Higgins and Chase. How much can they still do with those two guys?

They can still do a ton with them, actually. And I think we saw it last week where it was funny. When Chase caught his 10th pass of the game, I said, oh, really? I can't believe it's been that many. It kind of snuck up on me. And then I say, I know it's 14 catches, right? And he's FedEx air ground, however they do it, player of the week. And he had a huge game.

And T. Higgins had a touchdown. And Chase had a touchdown. And I think that will still feed them pretty well. I think last time Jamar's averaged up the target dropped under Brown. which I expect he's the guy you're going to throw the screens to when you can. I think it'll be him and Chase Brown. We'll see if they rarely throw a screen to T. Higgins or Andre Yossubash. We'll see how it goes from there.

But I think the deep balls are the jump balls, the deep digs are still going to T. They'll move Jamar around so much. And that's the thing they do now, I think more than 2023, is they move Jamar to every single spy. He's used like a true number one. And so I think he's still going to get 10 plus targets. you should still expect 10 targets a game for him. And he typically wins those. So as long as he's having a good moment, good game, he's going to get his numbers.

It just may be a little bit less yards per catch. Or T, maybe the volume's a little bit less, but he's still going to make those big plays down the field. I still think they're going to, when in doubt, I still think this offense throws the ball. It doesn't matter if it's Browning or Burrow. And because they can't run the ball, I think they end up in those situations a ton.

So I, if I'm in fantasy and I've got this question a lot this week. What do I do with T? What do I do with Jamar? Is it a big hit? I'm like, no, I'm still would think you may burn down the cap on both guys a little bit, right? Maybe Jamar's not going to end up triple crown. 17 hundred, 17 touchdowns. But maybe it's still 90 catches and 1,300 yards and 10 touchdowns. Like, that's still worthy of your roster spot starting every week. Yeah. And I think that if we make the comparison of Jefferson and Chase, the biggest difference is that you can take Jamar Chase and just be like, here, football, run. And that's not really who Justin Jefferson is. Justin Jefferson is a little more reliant on his

quarterback getting rid of the football in his direction 20 yards down the field, which is why I think it worked so well with Sam Darnold because he would just force that ball in there to Jefferson. We've never really seen them establish that just quick passing game to Jefferson. It's almost always been intermediate and downfield where Chase is really quarterback proof in that way. I'm not saying that you and I could do it, but if Jake Browning can just get him the football like that. He can make plays with his legs. I think he's kind of, I think he's like, remember how many great running backs there were when we were growing up. And now a lot of them are just playing wide receiver and learning to catch as kids.

And that's Jamar Chase. Let me give you, you brought up fantasy. The show brought to you by Fanduil. So let me give you a couple of numbers here on the Bengals offense. Then we could talk about the defense. Jake Browning over under 239 and a half yards. Where would you sit on that? I would say over. I think they're going to throw the ball. I think this is going to be a tight game that demands you to stay with the passing game. And again, because the running game has looked so bad, I would take the over.

So does that mean you're taking the under on Chase Brown's 69 and a half yards? I would. Yeah. I'd say this is probably a 50-something yard game again on 15 carries, just absolute terrible yards per attempt. And we'll take it. I think the number on Jamar Chase is probably pushed down by Jake Browning, maybe errantly here.

69.5 yards receiving for Jamar Chase feels like, you know, empty my bank account on that. But that's, I would, I think we're both going over on that one, right? I would go over on that for sure. And it's funny, I don't, you know, the, I feel like the Vikings aren't blitzing as much this year, but because they show it so much still that I think there's going to be a lot of quick funneling passes to Jamar just to get the ball out of his hands.

And maybe the Vikings tackle really well and rally and get to them and stop. him and it puts a cap on his yards. But I just think he's a big play waiting to happen. That's one big play. And you're hitting the over on that. All right. On the defensive side, Trey Hendrickson, you know, it's amazing how some of these players don't really need training camp. Seems like he's just fine to me. This is the biggest question that we have going into this game is, will it be Christian Derisaw? Will it be Walter Rouse? You're talking about a fifth year sophomore player versus one of the superstars of the National Football League facing off with Trey Hendrickson. But I notice Shamar Stewart is on the injured list here.

So I don't know what his situation is going to be. Does, oh, you think he's definitely going to be out. Okay. So it does look like to me, though, that the Bengals defense, which we expected to be hot garbage, has been okay through the first couple of weeks. How would you describe it? Yeah, I would say, okay, same way you said it, because there are moments. where we are frustrated, wondering what is going on.

And I watch the film. And it's like, oh, they're just sitting in cover three or a single high safety. And especially on critical downs, they're not blitzing. They're blitzing amongst the least in the league. But it's interesting because they'll send four, but they'll drop a D-end and send a linebacker or a nickel corner or a safety or whatever. So it's still four. And I don't think a lot of these charting services chart that as a blitz, although I would.

I would say that is because you're trying to overload one side of the offense. So you still have to be aware of what. what they're doing. But it's a lot of man coverage on money downs. And if you got good receivers, they're going to get open on that, right? The Bengals corners aren't great. Although I think Dax Hill has started the year really well. It's probably there.

It's Trey as their star. But, man, Dax is going to flash a ton if you're watching this game. And if you haven't watched the Bengals, he's in the slide. He play the boundary. They'll move him around. They'll cover tight ends with him. So he's been a good time to see what he's doing. The defense, though, has made big plays and big moments.

So they're getting to turnovers. getting the interceptions or catching all these tip balls. They're raking at the ball, trying to pull it out. Those big plays have saved them and kept them in games and probably won the game two weeks in a row for them. But they have been the beneficiaries of a lot of drop passes from the Browns and the Jags in crucial moments. So it's hard to completely say they're good.

They're playing well because if those guys hold on those balls, it's completely a different game. The Bengals are probably 0.2 if they're not dealing with that. Yeah, I saw the, uh, the Brian Thomas Jr. A couple of those drops. That was weird. He had a weird game.

Very, very gnarly. And also, just as an aside, I don't know exactly what they're doing with Travis Hunter, but do something different. Do anything. That doesn't seem to be working for a guy with that kind of talent. But I keep coming back to Hendrickson as the factor for this game. 14 pressures in his first two weeks.

My goodness. I mean, look, this is a Cincinnati problem of why you don't give that guy. whatever money he needs for as long as he needs. The last time he even faced off with Derisaw, he had two sacks. This dude, I think, is probably the least talked about absolute freak pass rusher in the NFL. I think if you went to 100 people and said, hey, who led the NFL in sacks last year? They'd be like, I don't know, Miles Garrett, T.J. Watt, like 17 and a half sacks and then 14 pressures at two sacks through the first two weeks. This, this dude is a problem.

And even with if Darisaw comes back, you're talking about facing the best of the best right off the bat. Yeah, and that's the last two years. I think he leads to the league in total sex. Four straight Pro Bowls. He was second a defensive player of the year last year. And he looks as good, if not better so far through two weeks. And listen, each team has been hampered at left tackle. Walker Little didn't look the same as that what I remember.

He was really struggling. In week one, DeWon Jones does not look like a good. player at right now. I don't know what's going on with the Browns there. He looked, I had a strong rookie year, but I guess Calhian left. So maybe that was the biggest difference for them. But he was killing him, absolutely killed him. And Black goes getting that ball out really quickly. But the Bengals are doing things different with Tray for the first time. He was 99% of his snaps at right defensive end throughout his time with Bengals and Lou Ann Arumo. He's actually playing a little bit of left defensive end now. It looks like they're going

weak, strong side. So at times, they're like, okay, kick Tray to the to the weak side and let him rush, get away from that tight end. But also they will, they're doing a lot of stunts and twists up front. So he's getting chances to get to slide inside or stunt inside, loop inside and go against the defense attack once in a while. Still, it's been money downs, third downs, late in the game, Trey's getting wider and he's just teeing off. And if you allow him to do that, he is extremely dangerous.

So what do you think of Carson Wentz? You know Carson Wentz? It's been around. What do you think of Carson Wentz? You afraid of Carson Wentz? I mean, there was a time where Wentz was good and fun and athletic with a strong arm. He's never really had a big game against the Bengals. You know, even going back to his Eagle days, I remember he, I think when I say he threw three

picks in a game, Vantes Berwick got him over the middle on a fake blitz and then jumped right in his face and intercepted a pass. It's, I always felt like you could get him second reaction or off script and confuse him a bit and he would force things while he had the athleticism and arm to do it. He just kind of fell apart in those situations. I still, I think he could be a low-end starter in the league. He never really has had that opportunity since. I guess opportunity is weird.

If he wins a job, he would go and win it if he was good enough. I still think his pocket presence is an issue and has been it throughout his career. And then if you can get him to try and create and go off script, maybe confuse him a bit with some rotations after the snap, you can get him to throw a ball that's maybe ill-advised. And if you can, that could be the difference in this game, because Browning is going to give you a couple. So which team actually intercepts the balls that,

go into their defender's vicinity. And I think that's the team that probably wins. Yeah. And this is where I think it comes down to and why Hendrickson is so important and why the front for the Bengals is so important because if pressure is created on Carson Wentz, this is a guy who hasn't really started since 2022 and it didn't go very well in 2022.

So he hasn't really, really started and had any sort of success since late in the season, in 2021. That is two, three, four. That's a long time ago now. You were just finding out about Joe Burrow in 2020. The last time that Carson Wentz was playing

well. And yet, when I look here the, we were doing the, you know, the over-unders on Fanduel, 200.5 yards. I think Carson Wentz is going to throw for more than 200 yards in this game. Because I just don't see the Vikings at any point. And it's, we need to stop talking about it all off season and accepting that they're not just going to slam a team's face in with the run

game. If they were going to do it, they would have done it the last couple of weeks and they were still having J.J. McCarthy, you know, drop straight back and things like that. I think that Kevin O'Connell just, it's in his nature to be like, oh, new quarterback, throw the ball. Here we go, down the field. And I think that's what this will come down to is, can they protect him well enough because we've seen him throw in warm up and practice and everything. I mean, the arm is still very live, but it's just can they give him time to make plays against this Cincinnati secondary? Because you mentioned if, I mean, if you're playing, I don't think they'll play cover one against this team because nobody does. But if they do, they're going to get smoked by Justin

Jefferson. So I think the opportunities will be there. Yeah, it's interesting that the Bengals did play it against the, it makes sense against the Browns because it's really Jerry Judy and he's kind of, you know, he's never really fulfilled that wide receiver one potential. But then against the Jags, they played it a bunch, even though the Jags can be. it with their receivers and they've got three guys. And Diommy Brown was the one actually doing the work. And he looks pretty good. And I was a big fan of his coming out in North Carolina.

But yes, the front is going to be the big test here. And the Bengals don't get a lot of pressure other than Trey Hendrickson. Like if you look at their totals, you're like, man, man, they're getting decent pressure. But yeah, that's Trey getting most of that again. Even one of their nickel, their nickel defensive tackle is Chris Jenkins, junior second year guy out of Michigan. He has a zero pass rush win rate so far. He has not won a single pass rush.

based on pf which is insane he's got like 46 rushes so far yeah should probably have won one of those at least one just by accident please you should have fallen the other guy slips or something yeah and shamar stewart was getting a lot of those reps as either the rush power left defense men really try and push the pocket towards tray or they're kicking him in the defensive tackle and he's been fun because at least he's got raw power his hands are a wreck he's like an inflatable arm man out there but at the same time you know he's powerful and we'll run through your face if he has too. And then so now he's gone. He's got an ankle. I think it's a low ankle sprain. High ankle sprain. I mean, two to three, maybe four weeks. So he's definitely out of this game.

So Miles Murphy's going to probably kick in and take those reps. Who's been okay? But again, not racking up any stats. Same with Joseph O's side. Ben okay, not racking up any stats. It's just Trey. It's only Trey. And there's a lot of frustration from early to midpoints of different weeks, four week one, a week two, where it's like, they're getting no pressure in two straight drives and we're starting to freak out. And then Trey has a sack. okay there we go here back on it i guess on third down we you know we we finally got one but that's been the bengal's defense all right joe before you tell me who you think is going to win this football game i want you to give me a totally random x factor here something that i'll give you

one first and let you think i think the viking's return game is an x factor for them in the first week it worked really really well with miles price an undrafted free agent who came in and was like whoa this kid can really return some punts uh second week, not so much. And it made a big difference with, and now we're seeing all these kick returns. The Vikings have almost as many kick returns this year as they did all of last year. Last year they had 14. This year, they've already got 11. So the execution of the kick and punt return game, I think will matter in a day where there could be mistakes, there could be turnovers, there could be strip sacks. This could be a circus. You never know when that one special

team's play is going to come through. So that would be my X factor. Good shout out on special teams there because Evan McPherson looks a lot better this year. He's back to looking normal. That could be a big, you know, advantage or at least a fight between these two teams if it's a close game, which kicking game gets off better. Ryan Rico, the same. The Bengals probably won a game against the Browns at the end there because he downed it at the one on the last possession for the Browns, like gave him almost no chance to get down the field and kick a field goal. So he's been good. Interesting on the kick returns as well. Charlie Jones is supposed to be their primary kick returner, but the Bengals put two guys split out there on

each end because the teams are kicking it into the corners. And the Jags kicked it to Samajai P. Ryan, who's supposed to be the blocker for Charlie Jones every time. And P. Ryan looked good. He just ran full speed straight and bounced off dudes. And he had like a 25 and some change average. He was getting them out to 35, 40 each time. And it's like, hey, we'll take this field position all day long if you want to keep picking it to be Ryan. So he did a really good job there. I'm interested to see how that evolves if you want to do that or maybe give it to Charlie Jones and see if you can, you know, he's a skinny dude. Maybe you can hit him and knock that ball loose. I'll give you one, though. The Bengals wide receiver three has been interesting for me. Yoshi has been taking,

Andre Yosey Bosch, been taking pretty much all of those snaps, but they've been slowly rotating in Mitchell Tinsley. And if you watch the preseason game against the commanders, he had like three crazy catches on one drive and really solidified his spot on the roster. He was a former commander, too, so maybe a little revenge preseason action for him. The Bengals didn't even play them the last preseason game. They said, you made the roster year good. And this was right off the heels of a germane Burton injury. The Bengals have just made Burton inactive since then because Tinsley has been so good. Well, he got his first NFL target last week. They've been bringing them in on like heavy or obvious run situations, maybe as the blocker, putting them

in motion a lot and just trying to use them like, hey, this is our blocking guy. And I think the Jags must have slept on it because they give him one-on-one on a fade ball. Browning threw it up who throws a really catchable fade ball and then that's a good thing for higgins but maybe it's also a really good thing for tinsley goes up one-handed keeps both feet in gets a shin in makes a great amazing first target catch of his career and i wonder if we're going to start to see more of that because if that's a guy that can go up and get a ball for you and you're starting browning i really like that option yoshi has really done nothing as wide receiver three i'd like to see more of a rotation and maybe that includes charlie jones and maybe germain burton at some point this

sounds like the exact type of player who would have a random huge breakout game against the Minnesota Vikings and we'd be saying it's the Mitchell Tinsley game and you'll never forget it. So, uh, well, we'll, we'll see. I mean, this one becomes every NFL game is unpredictable. This one becomes supremely unpredictable when we have two backup quarterbacks in the mix. So everybody just strap in, hold on for the ride and we'll have to see what happens. Joe Goodberry bangles on the brain. So good to get together with you. you again, though, even though it's under these circumstances without the quarterbacks we expected, it's always good football talk, man. So best of luck to you going forward for another

rocky season. And, you know, I'm sure we'll talk again soon down the road. Thanks, man. Thank you.