Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Vikings expect quicker passes with Wentz; a key Bengals injury (Part 2)

Episode Date: September 19, 2025

Matthew Coller talks about the latest injury report and discusses Vikings-Bengals with Cincinnati podcaster Joe Goodberry of the Bengals on the Brain channel. Then Manny Hill joins to talk about what a successful season is now for the Vikings. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

on the brain a great Cincinnati Bengals analyst and we're going to bring in here manny hill in just a moment but let me get you the fact that we have some sponsors first and then we'll load up manny here doing this on the fly usually we do this off the air getting him into the the room there we go amy can you hear me okay yeah got you loud and clear Okay, well, how about that? Nice and smooth and easy. And if you guys can hear everything, okay, let me know. Because usually we figure this out beforehand, but doing it live at the moment.

So let me, oh, my volume went down. Okay. Yeah, this is, for summary, man, he explained to me why. Why in the world, there it goes, I got it back up. Why in the world do they make microphones that automatically adjust the volume, as opposed to just giving you a volume button and letting you do it yourself? Like I'm watching it right now and it keeps like adjusting on its own and is annoying me like crazy. So I'm going to have to go in here and turn up the gain a little bit.

See, can you hear that? It keeps doing it to me. That now I think okay. How does that sound now? Is that okay? I think that's okay. I think that's okay. It's so annoying.

Okay. Now I think I went too high. Okay. Everybody, I'll figure this out in just a second. I think I went too hot on that now. Got a little over exuberant. They probably designed it for a big booming voice like mine that they think somebody like me is talking into it. It's, oh, this microphone's got to adjust.

Yeah. No, right. It's just like extra technological stuff for the sense of extra technological stuff where they're like, oh, you know what would be really cool as if the microphone adjust the audio itself. And then it makes it go way down when I don't need it. So, okay, let me know if that's okay. My levels now are good and very similar to Manny. So, that allows me to let you guys know about my friends over at Hymns. If you've been hit with the old hair loss bug, you don't have to be frustrated.

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I swear I didn't do that on purpose, Manny. I swear I didn't. But let's just move on from all that and microphone talk and so forth and get into some football discussion. So how you feel, Manny? It's been, you know, it's been a couple days. And I think there's been a chance to settle down a little bit for everybody.

I've noticed that the chat has taken a big, kind of, you know, deep breath and stop the freak out a little bit about this week and what's going forward with J.J. McCarthy. But how are you feeling? I'm feeling pretty good overall. Obviously, with with the Vikings being as banged up as they are really on both sides of the ball, it. raises a lot of question marks and I think it kind of changes the way we feel about where this season could potentially go. It's all going to depend on how healthy they can get over these next couple of games. But, you know, at least I think this is an opportunity of these next three games, certainly, for them to, you know, kind of stay afloat. If they can, you know,

as their roster is getting more and more healthy over the next couple of weeks, hopefully, fingers crossed. These next three games are an opportunity for them to still win some games because I think they're going to be very winnable against some possibly lesser opponents. Right. I agree. And I think that you kind of at this point have to, if you are Vikings fans following this season, you have to just grab onto the side because you might get thrown over with how rocky this

could get. And for these folks, the unfortunate part of this season, is that they've been through this so many times before. They have seen the season where the random quarterback pops up. I mean, think about how close we were after week one of 2017 to being like Sam Bradford is the franchise quarterback. Think about how last year, how close we were to saying Sam Darnold was the franchise quarterback. I mean, after week 17, I'm sure you and I did the show and said,

this is your QB. You have to find a way to keep him. And then, of course, Vikings happens. You just, nope, and that football being, you know, pulled out from Charlie Brown has happened so many times. And I think that there's a lot of that feeling right now. And all I can really say is that there are different paths that this could take and some of them are still good. It's like it doesn't have to mean that this is just over for J.J. McCarthy. It doesn't have to mean it's over for this season.

I think you have to alter expectations from this team should compete for the Super Bowl with their young. quarterback and they should be at the top of the NFC North to that's still there, but also the other side of this is now possible as well. And we'll continue to answer you guys questions if you want to throw them in the chat. But K Fow says, would it hurt McCarthy to sit the season behind Wentz? And that's the hardest thing to figure out, Manny, is what is the right thing? I was talking earlier about being solutions oriented on the show. We're always trying to find the right answers for the Minnesota Vikings to win. win football games. That's how we shape the discussion. We don't just come on and

yell and complain. We look for like, what's the way that they should be doing it? What's the answer here? And I don't know because when you start talking about having him sit for another year, you start to get into Trey Lance territory. Like, this guy's not playing and Anthony Richardson territory. And at the same time, it's like, well, can he learn how to run quick game with perfect timing if he's over there on the sideline? but then if they win the next two games with Carson Wentz, can you say to Carson Wentz, hey, buddy, thanks, good job.

Now we're going to go back to the guy who couldn't figure it all out when he played in his first two games. That's where with this situation, I'm not sure what the right thing is to do. I truly do not know what the right thing is to do. I think that the information has to present itself to us. No question. And I think what makes this especially challenging

is the reason why, you know, what seems to be holding J.J. McCarthy back or what seems to be, I don't know, stunting his development has been his health injuries. I mean, he had the knee injury last year that kept him out the entire year. And then you get this ankle sprain that's going to keep him out at least a few weeks.

You know, that's where you do kind of wonder, like you said, you wonder if it's going to be an Anthony Richardson or Trey Lance type of situation because that, that has literally been what it's held. those two guys back and really stunted their development is that they just couldn't stay healthy and get enough reps and get enough playing time.

That's, you know, it's one thing if he just wasn't playing well, J.J. McCarthy. He just wasn't playing well. And KOC decided, okay, let's sit him. We'll continue to have him learn behind the scenes. Let's get Carson Wentz in there. And let's see if

JJ can, you know, remain healthy still be very healthy and still you know participate in certain things during the week um but now it's like okay he's got this injury and he needs to learn still needs to continue to develop but he's also got to make sure that his his body is going to continue to hold up and and function and you know i mean an ankle sprain is an ankle sprain it's different from you know a meniscus tear and having to get surgery like he had last year but still it's still an injury it's still sort of that ramp up time that he's going to need to get when he is ultimately healthy and is ready to come back. So it's a very, very tricky situation.

There's no obvious answer here because if you say that the guy just needs more experience because he's a young quarterback, but then you also say the best thing is to sit him for the team, how do those things coexist? And they really can't. So you almost have to have this decision tree where you start off by asking yourself, and this is probably a meeting inside TCO Performance Center this week between front office, coaches, I'm sure they have this sit down and this discussion of if Carson Wentz does X, we stay with Wentz. If he does Y, then we go back to McCarthy. If we feel like, you know, in their analysis of ripping apart the tape, if we feel like X percentage was just the quarterback, but X percentage, what?

wasn't. And if that percentage isn't that high that was J.J. McCarthy's fault when they looked at the tape, then they might feel much more comfortable going back to him and say, well, we've got to clean up this, that we need Jordan Addison back, we need Darrasaw back, but we think he'll be fine. Like, those are things that they know that we can only guess at. I think when the ball comes out that slow, you've got some problems with experience and someone who needs to play, because that is the Trey Lance problem of, I think Trey Lance could throw a football. I think he couldn't see defenses and see at the speed that he needed to see. And so you might end up sticking with Wentz and then having, and this is like this,

he could be playing next week, McCarthy, or he could be playing week one next year or never again. Like this is all, all this stuff can happen, depending on where it goes. If I had to pick the most likely, I think that he's probably back playing, I would say maybe in London against the Cleveland Browns. I think if they split these next two games and Wentz is just sort of meh, then you, you just go back to McCarthy and you ride wherever it goes. That's in the decision tree.

I think that's the one that's the most likely. Yeah. Well, it kind of makes me wonder to, I mean, you remember this back in 2017 when San Bradford has the great game, week one against the Saints. And then we find out that his knees, he's got a problem with his knee. Case Keenham starts the next week in Pittsburgh.

It's a disaster. But then, you know, Vikings win a couple games. Case has that great game against the Buccaneers at home at U.S. Bank Stadium. And then remember, they brought Bradford back to start the game at Soldier Field. And Sam looked lost. And it was, it got so bad. And it was kind of, I don't know if the knee was still bothering him. But for some reason, that internal clock of get rid of the football was just not there.

And the offense really struggled. They went to Case and then Case brought them back and led them to a victory. and, you know, the rest is history with that season. That kind of makes me wonder, okay, let's say Carson Wentz does play well over the next couple of games and you still decide to go with McCarthy and he comes out and he struggles. Then what do you do? And it's a kind of a different situation with JJ because he's a guy that you're still viewing as your franchise quarterback, a young guy that still needs to develop.

And the only way he's going to develop is by playing. So if he comes back after Wentz does so well, and he plays. plays poorly, what do you do? Because you can't just, you can't leave him out there because you're still trying to win games. But also, the other side of it is if you pull him, what is that going to do to his confidence, his development? What does that say about where he's going to go big picture? So it's, it's a really, really. And, you know, all of this has to be, you know, we have to see how things go over the next couple of games with Carson Wentz anyway. But, you know, these different scenarios that could possibly happen. It's, it kind of reminds me of the video game that you play where you can

you make a decision and it can kind of take you in different directions and the game can kind of end in different ways depending on the options that you choose. Folks, there's no way to prepare yourself for hair loss when it happens and you either end up frustrated or in denial, but I promise you that there is help and it is simple and easy through hymns. You could take the next step with confidence, access treatments that are made with clinically proven ingredients, like Phenesteride and Monoxidil to stop hair loss and regrow hair within three to six months, no waiting rooms, no hoops, just ingredients with a track record of results. Hymns offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients that

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oral monoxide and finesteroide prescription required see the website for important safety information choose your own adventure games except for in this case you you don't get to choose life gets to choose for you and i think that 2017 and 2008 are the seasons that are there to show you how tough this can be uh in viking's history where you know gus comes back never expecting to get to play and then things go wrong for Tavares Jackson. Gus has got to get in there. He's winning games, but he's not looking good, which is a hard scenario because if Wentz were to win games but look bad, that's kind of what happened with Case as well,

because there was a real conversation within the Vikings that year in 2017 of whether to play Teddy when he came back. There were players on the team who wanted Teddy to come in and play. Now, of course, that would have been a lot to ask of Teddy to come back from that catastrophic knee injury, but that was a real meeting that they had. And I think it was Everson Griffin told us in the locker room that they got the leaders together with Zimmer and they decided to stick with case because, you know, Teddy hadn't played and all those things.

But if you think that you know or we know or anybody knows where it's going, I mean, the people who do this for their job who know everything about football and everything about player evaluation, they don't have the right answers either. I think we can all say, hey, Tavares Jackson should not have started that point. playoff game against the Eagles in 08, but, you know, who knows? Like Gus Farrat might have done the same exact thing. I'm sure Gus still feels like he should have been playing. But we just, I mean, think about how the San Francisco 49ers, just to demonstrate how

unpredictable quarterbacks are in 2023, Kyle Shanahan called Brock Purdy and told them, hey, we're going to try to get Tom Brady to come out of retirement to play for us. And would you be okay with sitting a year? you're still our guy for 2024. And Brock Purdy was like, I guess. I mean, if you're bringing in the goat. And then Brady says, no, no, I have to own a team and be on TV and play flag football in Saudi Arabia or something. Sorry, I'm a little busy with retirement.

And then Brock Purdy goes to the Super Bowl and is in overtime against Patrick Mahomes. It's like life is crazy guys when it comes to the quarterback position. I got a question from George said, how did the Packers dominate the commanders down to starting offensive linemen? Somehow their O-line coach coached up the backups. It does depend on who is out.

Christian Derisaw is not your run-of-the-mill offensive lineman. He's not somebody you can replace. There are five guys who are Christian Derisaw in the NFL. Franchise left tackles, maybe five to seven. Out of 32 teams,

the rest are just holding on for dear life at left tackle. So there's that. I also want to throw this stat at you, too. Well, you also have a veteran quarterback now. Jordan Love when running play action is 14 for 20 with 202 yards and two touchdowns. What is that good for a quarterback rating of 135.8 when Jordan Love is running play action because they've been ahead of the sticks and they've played great defense and they've had their offense moving.

They've run the football well. And I'll take a look at where he ranks and turn. terms of, you know, time to throw. I'm sure that Jordan Love has not been hanging on to the football too long because a little bit, but he's more of a playmaker. His average time to an attempt is, let's see here. Oh, actually, he's been holding out of the ball a little bit longer. That's probably the play action stuff. So, you know, the point is that that's experienced. Did Jordan Love do that? Would he have been okay in his first three starts with no offensive linemen out there? Like, probably not.

not. I'm guessing, in fact, I saw it in 2023, just how bad Jordan Love looked when he got some pressure in that season. And then by the end of the year, he was really good. And that right there, that season tells you how much these things can change because midway through 2023, we all walked out of Lambo and said, Jordan Love ain't got it, folks. Move on. No

breath farve here. And then still going into this season, there were conversations about whether Jordan Love had it or not. Well, And that's after Jordan Love had actually sat behind Aaron Rogers for multiple seasons. It wasn't like, you know, year two or starting as a literal rookie for him. Like he had been sitting behind one of the greatest quarterbacks of all time. And he still, in his first couple of starts, had some struggles. I mean, this is kind of what the Vikings are learning now with J.J. McCarthy is

there's just going to be bumps in the road along this process. And we saw it, we see it with almost every young quarterback, not named Matt Ryan, who goes 11 and 5 as a rookie and takes the Falcons to the, to the playoffs, or Joe Flacco, who takes the Ravens to the AFC championship game as a rookie. You know, Jaden Daniels last year, but even Jaden Daniels, like last year, the first couple games, it was kind of like, okay, really like this kid, but there's some growing pains there. And then obviously he got better and better as the season went along and the rest of his history there. These are the trials and tribulations of having a young quarterback. You're just going to have these moments where it's going to be really frustrating. And the Vikings are in a tough spot because in addition to all the injuries they have right now, they have a very veteran roster and all of these free agents that they went and got.

And the trade for Jordan Mason, these guys are ready to win right now. So it's a very tricky situation. Let me throw you this one. It was an example that my previous guest brought up about Joe Burrow. Week 1, 2021 was Joe Burroughs second season, so he already played, but he had the injury and he missed a lot of time. So in his week one, he was marvelous against the Vikings and threw for two touchdowns, 261 yards, completed 70. Yeah, he was, you all remember. He was great.

The very next week, he threw three interceptions against the Chicago Bears and was 19 for 30 with less than seven yards per attempt, no big time throws, two turnover worthy plays, five times sacked and a 66 quarterback rating, that just, I mean, right there, that's a guy who was in his second year and you have inconsistency. We used to call it the Kirk coaster because Kirk, after all the years he had been in the league, he would still drive you crazy with one week that was really great or one month that was really great and the next month that was down. So, you know, and I see enemy cap says still freaking out about it. I think that it's not unreasonable to freak out about it.

because of how much Vikings fans have wanted it and how much they need it. And I've talked a lot about just the fan reaction to this because that's been interesting in itself, but also this front office, this head coach, they need this. Not that they're on the hot seat if J.J. McCarthy goes bust. It's very much like a San Francisco or a Los Angeles where you've earned a lot of your stripes. Now, those teams I know have gone to the Super Bowl, but you've shown that you can coach So if this doesn't work out, it's probably more of the quarterback than it is the coach and so forth. But, you know, things get hot quick in the NFL and even someone like Kyle Shanahan going into this year.

It's like, if this doesn't work out, like, how long is Kyle Shanahan going to be there? And so they're not, I'm not saying anyone's on the hotzee, but their whole plan was around this one person. And then when that's the case, it would sort of be like if your whole life plan was to marry your girlfriend and you move in together after the marriage and you find out that she does some crazy stuff that you didn't know about. And then after two weeks, you're like, is this bad? You know, and look, you have to work through that, right? Because this is a marriage with J.J. McCarthy. But at the same time, if they get to the end of the season and they don't know or it goes bad, then this whole idea, this whole plan that we talked about for years just implodes within

one ankle injury and one bad night in Atlanta or against Atlanta. And that feels so crazy to me, man. He's week too. So it's like you can very, in talking about the freaking out part, you can very quickly get to a really bad spot with this. And then maybe have to remind yourself, well, he might play next week. Like he might get back against the Steelers and do. And look, Justin Fields had a good day against the Steelers.

And so did Sam Darnold. So it might be fine, and that's kind of the best I could do for you. Yeah. And I think, you know, when you're obviously, you know, the primary focus for them is the Cincinnati Bengals and finding a way to win this game this weekend. But if you kind of think big picture, again, I go back to all the moves they made in free agency to bring in these veteran players that are, you know, built to help you right now and contend right now.

So the window for those particular players, talking about, you know, guys like Jonathan Allen, even Andrew Van Ginkle, who's, you know, getting to be 30 years old here, I think, or he might be 30 years old already. You know, Javon Hardrave, these are guys that are ready to win right now and playing, you know, kind of in the prime of their careers or at least kind of towards the end of the prime of their careers. It's likely that two, three years from now, those guys aren't going to be on this team and what does this team look like? now you still got your cornerstone players you still got jefferson you got derisaw those are two you know prime you know elite level players at positions that you need talent to be elite to contend and win so that's good but some of these other ancillary pieces aren't aren't necessarily going to be on this team two three years from now and if you fast forward to 2027 2028 and you haven't gotten what you need to get out of J.J. McCarthy, now you're probably talking about,

even if KOC and Kwayze are still part of this organization, now you're talking about probably having to use another first round pick on a quarterback again and kind of starting this process all over. And what does the roster look like two, three years from now? Do you have the cap space? Do you have the flexibility? Do you have enough good players to where you can try this again, or is it going to be more of a situation where it's going to take a couple of more years to even get yourself back into contention? And there might be a scenario where they sort of split the difference of what we're talking about here, where McCarthy comes back and once, let's say he just does okay.

Let's say, you know, one in one or two and one in these next three games. Let's even just make it two. McCarthy, I think with a sprained ankle, can fly to London. I don't think that's an injury that prevents you from getting up in the air. So let's just say that he gets back against Cleveland in London. Dara saw is back to take on Miles Garrett and just like off we go. We're back on. And the season is not over because they're two and two.

And then McCarthy the rest of the way is okay. And what I mean is they go nine and eight and he's got some games where you're very excited about him. And they've got some games where you're very unexcited about what he does that look like the last one against Atlanta. and it's a tough schedule and they miss the playoffs by a quarter of a game, some sort of tiebreaker or something. That is a position where you're a little bit like, how do you feel now?

How do you feel now if he settles into just being okay by the end of the season? And then you're looking at the roster and the money you've spent saying we really can't prove it. It kind of is what it is for this year and next year before some money shakes loose from the tree of the salary cap and YouTube buys more games and Netflix buys more

either the Netflix is going to buy Flag Day and Netflix actually that's in June so you can't do that. They're going to they're going to buy National Donut Day. We're going to play an NFL game on a Wednesday for National Donut Day and it's going to be on Netflix. You know, it's like, it's right? Wouldn't put it past them.

The cap will go up, but next year they're not going to be able to spend a whole heck of a lot. So that I think would leave you in an awkward position as well of just kind of hoping that he builds on what he's done and what he could be consistently. But even I think a nine and eight, and this is where I wanted to transition the discussion into like what's a success now and have we shifted our expectations now of this season based on what's happened in these first two weeks because if he's nine and eight, I think you could

still go into next year talking yourself into pretty easily, well, that's fine. like he'll get there and that wasn't what it was supposed to be but it's also not the worst case scenario so he'll get there next year i think the the toughest is probably like a seven-win season where he's good in three games and he's bad in six games and you're like i because then you get into the the sam darnold like remember those three games and i was i got to say i was a little we'll get into this but i just as an aside i was a little concerned this week when west phillips was like guys you got to remember he made that one throw to nailer and I was like it's a pretty routine play Wes I mean come it's a good throw but come on I mean this was not Montana to Clark in the

back of the end zone here I mean it's just like you got to remember he took a hitch and you're like oh is that what we're doing is that what we're doing like you know we got to play to our standard but that one throw that was nice we're going to like talk about I don't know that was a little bit because that sounds to me like, you remember the Jets people, you remember those games in the last three weeks, he was really good. Like, I don't think you want to be in that spot. But how would you define Manny right now what a successful season is for the Vikings?

Is it only Super Bowl? Is there a different definition? How would you put it? It's a great question. And I think, well, I mean, context is everything. And I think you have to consider, you know, not just how J.J. McCarthy has looked in these first eight quarters of the season, but all of the injuries that they've had to deal with. And it's hard to really predict how these injuries are going to play out with some of these guys. You know, Blake Cashman's on IR. He's going to miss, you know, at least four games. But what's he going to look like when he comes back? Hamstrings are tricky. Aaron Jones, hamstring. Those are very tricky. You know, how does he perform the rest of the season? I think you just have to take all of that into account. And if they can find a way to finish nine and eight,

and even if they don't make the playoffs, they're at least in the conversation all the way to the end of the season for a playoff spot, I think all things considered, knowing what we kind of know about J.J. McCarthy now, based on the first couple of games that really overall look like he's probably not ready for this yet. and he can become more ready as he continues to play if he comes back from this injury and he's

all right. But I think all of that to account, if they can finish nine and eight, maybe just missed the playoffs by, you know, a tie break losing out on a tiebreaker or something like that. I think you can call that a successful season, provided that J.J. McCarthy shows growth, improvement, solid, you know, positive development as they're kind of going towards that nine and eight record. I think that's a good way to put it, uh, because the caveat of that has to happen with J.J. McCarthy playing. And I was just pulling up last year's performances by quarterbacks. And, you know, where would he have to say, just for a catch-all metric,

where would you have to rank by PFF? Like, Darnold was the 12th best quarterback by PFF last year. He's probably not going to reach Sam Darnold level. That would mean really something has happened good for J.J. McCarthy, just for his overall season, even with the slow start. It's hard to get that, you know, PFF rating that high. But he can't be where Drake May was last year or Caleb Williams either, where those guys were 24th and 25th.

He's probably got to be in the Bow Nix range, which was 16th last year. Rogers was 17th. Love was 18th. You know, we know that Love had a tough season through injury. If he is there, then I think that you can get to 9 and 8. You can be in the, hey, let's hope for a tiebreaker. And as long as he has played well along the way, That still ends up being somewhat of a success.

Now, I went into the season saying, like, this is not a fake trophy season. I'll still stick with that. I will still stick with that. If you get to the end of the year and you miss the playoffs, trust me, there's a rant on the way. That means you have failed. And regardless of whether the moves made sense at the time, this isn't, they don't give out a trophy that says your moves made sense at the time. They give it out for you winning a championship.

and they're supposed to compete for a championship. And I don't want to move that goal post just based on two weeks because these are the decisions they made. These are coaches and front office people. They got together in a room and they said, should we stick with Sam Darnold? Should we go with Aaron Rogers? Not that I think that would have taken them anywhere.

Darnold, though, should we stick with Darnold? And they all decided, hey, we're going with J.J. McCarthy. So if that fails, it's on every single person. And that will be factored into the pressure of them in the field. future. But if you get to a point at the end of the season where you're looking at nine and eight and you lose out on a tiebreaker from getting in the playoffs. And McCarthy is the 16th best quarterback by PFF and has had a lot of really good games along the way. And you lose by eight points to Lamar Jackson and you lose by six points to Jared Gough or something like that. So be it.

You get sacked four times by Micah Parsons. Okay. Then that means to me, you're headed in the right direction and you're going to take your second swing at because always been two swings in my mind this year and next year. If you can convince me by the end of the year that J.J. McCarthy will take the second swing at it and have a chance, then I think that's still successful. Now, if they get to 9 and 8 Manning and Carson Wentz has started those games. Yeah. That's just not enough. That's not enough for me. That's not doing anything for me. No, I agree with you 100%. And, And I think that's where I go back to context being everything here. Because to your point, they go nine and eight and Carson Wentz has started most of these games.

I mean, Carson Wentz is the veteran that is supposed to kind of, for lack of a better term, to have it all together here and be able to sort of, you know, it's supposed to be a situation where if Carson Wentz plays in that game against Atlanta, then you end up winning the game because a lot of what went wrong offensively was because of the play of the quarterback and just the overall inexperience of J.J. McCarthy in that moment. But if you get to nine and eight,

I mean, Carson Wentz was on an Indianapolis Colts team in 2020. Or was it 2021? I think it was 2021? Where they, you know, they had some high expectations and he played all right. He played pretty good that season for them, but they had a no-show, performance in the last week of the season on the road in Jacksonville that knocked

them out. And then Carson Wentz was on a different team the next year. So that's the kind of thing. That's that's where it's kind of a fine line between like how it, how it looks, how that nine and eight looks when you get to the end of the season. And what has kind of transpired on the road to that nine and eight is going to be a huge deciding factor on how I think a lot of people feel about it. And that I think is why that 08 season sticks out to me. and also the time that I was in Buffalo before I came here. And I think it was 2014 where Kyle Orton showed up. And they missed out on the playoffs in the second to last week of the season.

And they had benched E.J. Manuel. Manuel's first year. But it was kind of a similar deal where as a rookie, he got hurt. And he missed a lot of the season. And this is, again, how fast this stuff happens. And people who are, you know, you're a fearmonger. I've just seen it. Like, I've just seen this happen so fast. where he gets in the game as a rookie.

He's showing some signs. He gets hurt. He's out for the season. And then, you know, they play Thad Lewis or whatever, a bunch of random quarterbacks. Jeff Toole was one. I think that popped into a football game. There's, I mean, it was crazy.

There was one guy, just as random thing. But because I was in sports radio and you have callers and, you know, there is as wild as you commenters can be sometimes. And there was a guy who was obsessed with Jeff Toole. And when they finally cut Jeff Toll, we did like an homage to the guy who had called in so many times and been like, I don't think they're giving him a chance. So maybe that's going to be the Max Brosmer person, although I think Brosmer is a better quarterback. The point just being that, you know, he got hurt E.J. in 2013, 2014, Orton comes in, almost gets him to the playoffs, has some fun moments along the way.

But then going into 15, it was like, so what do you do with E.J. Manuel? And they had him in a quarterback competition. he lost to Tyrod Taylor and then the rest is history there. And I guess it eventually leads them to Josh Allen. But the same thing with 08 where it was like, yeah, okay, Gus is in and Gus is winning some games. But like, what good does this do you? Gus is 38.

This is not helping you figure out whether Tavaris Jackson could be your franchise quarterback or not. But the roster was so good that year that you should be in the playoffs competing against the Philadelphia Eagles. So you can kind of end up getting stuck in the middle when you have the veteran quarterback in some ways, and I'm not saying that this is true for, because if it goes ideally, then Wentz plays two weeks, wins one out of two or two out of two, and then JJ takes over again, and then we go off from there.

But there's a little part of me that thought, it might have been better if it's Sam Howell because there would be no, there would be nobody in that locker room who went, hey, we got to stay with Wentz, right? Right, right. Yeah, yeah, I mean, because, I mean, Sam Howell is, yeah, I'd be really nervous of Sam Howell was starting even this week, even against Jake Browning. Yeah, I mean, so yeah, you kind of think like you want these decisions and these scenarios to play out and make the decision easy for you. I mean, but again, they're going to be in a tough spot if Carson Wentz throws for 350 yards a game, these next couple of games and he's lighting it up and they win in dominating fashion over these next two games, which is,

possible, you know, then what do you do, especially like I said before, the scenario plays out where you still decide to go back to McCarthy and he comes in and he plays poorly because then what do you do? Because now that's, that's probably the worst case scenario there is if you go back to McCarthy after Wentz has played really well and McCarthy just stinks up the joint because he's just still not, not ready yet. That's, I think that's the situation that they really have to hope doesn't come about. Then you end up with quarterback controversy, quarterback carousel. Then if Wentz plays bad in a game, he's getting booed, and they're calling for JJ.

And yeah, that's, that is be ugly. It'd be ugly. What they really need is McCarthy to come back in and play good. That's, I mean, that's just what they need here. And, you know, I've seen people every night, like, sky's not falling and that sort of thing. If that happens, then, then it's not. But if that doesn't happen, then I don't know where you go from here. CJ says it's not about how many wins.

It's what the wins represent. That is absolutely true. KFT, I totally disagree that Pennix wasn't better the other night. I thought Pennix did a great job with that game. He, he, so Pennix did exactly what you're supposed to do as a young quarterback, and the Atlanta Falcons did exactly what you're supposed to do around a young quarterback. They leaned on the run, ran effectively, and then Pennix kept the train. on the tracks, didn't have to be special, didn't make any big mistakes, got sacked a couple

times, but did not fumble the football and just kept his team in the lead all the way to the end. That's some game managing there. I was impressed, actually, with a few throws that Pennix made where he could have tried to be risky and said, you know what, here's the score of the game. We're in control. We're ahead. I'm not going to take that shot. So I liked his game, but he's also four years older. Mani, let's talk about, let's talk about Cincinnati. out of Cincinnati here. We're on to Cincinnati. I feel like, I feel like this whole situation has ruined the many opportunities to say we're on to Cincinnati this week. But the fan duel question of the day is Justin Jefferson's over under for this game is 72.5

yards. How many yards do you think he should end up with if the offense is cooking? Like if Carson Wentz works out how many yards with the over under on fan duel at 72.5, how many yards does he end up if Wentz is on point in this game against the Bengals? I think he definitely ends up with over 100. I think if this offense is cooking, I think it means Justin Jefferson's getting the ball and Carson Wentz is delivering the ball to him. And I think especially going up against this defense, we know Trey Henderson's fantastic and Hill is really good as well.

But, you know, that's secondary. You can, you can pick apart that secondary for Cincinnati. Maddie. And, you know, I think it's, in order for this offense to really be successful, it's going to take it in the ball to Justin Jefferson as often as possible. And I think that means, you know, somewhere between seven and ten catches and somewhere between 100 and 140 yards. I mean, that's, to me, I think that's going to get it done. So William's got 128. Stephanie's got 100. KMack wants 133 and a touchdown. So looking at last year as a little bit of a guidepost here and some of the games where the offense was cooking doesn't necessarily have to be over

100, one, two, three, four, five games over 100 last year, but he had a bunch of games that were almost 100, 81, 85, 92, 81, 81, 99, 92. I think that that's probably the range for me that it has to be because the, not only the Jefferson big plays that get mixed in, but also the threat of Jefferson as well, that if he's doing nothing, then the other team does not, and the quarterback's not finding him, then they don't have to give them the type of respect that they usually do. But if he gets them at least enough times for six catches for 85 yards, like he had last year against Green Bay, for example, Detroit, where the offense was pretty good at the home game, seven catches for 81. Even that just makes

your opponent think about, like, Jefferson's doing enough and being involved. I will still stand with he needs at least 10 targets in this game, at least 10 targets, because this is how it's supposed to work with the offense. And I don't need to hear any of the excuses about how he's double-teamed. I mean, this is a guy who was double-teamed all last year and had 1,600 yards receiving. So that, and that to me is actually the true tell of J.J. McCarthy and how it just wasn't working in these first two games is how hard it was to find Justin Jefferson. As we look at the targets, 158 targets last year from Sam Darnold, well, the year before he was hurt, but he still had almost 100 targets. He had 185 with Kirk Cousins. And sometimes it would feel

like Kirk Cousins was ignoring him for the first two or three quarters. I mean, this needs to be. It's not going to work if you don't have a quarterback getting him the 10 targets. And I think it's symptomatic of where your quarterback was at. Like if you're looking for when we play the whose fault is it anyway and we end up with a lot of people's names written on the chalkboard, well, there's only one guy who is supposed to throw the ball to Justice Jefferson a lot who's not doing that. And that is where Carson Wentz, I think you heard, well, you didn't, you were living your life. But the people who were listening at the very beginning, who absolutely are still listening right now. And I'm, and I love those people, heard me play Justin Jefferson talking

about just how, like, practicing with Carson Wins and he sees the coverages and he's not trying to take shots. He's just saying like a veteran kind of comes in and throws it where it's supposed to be thrown. And if he does that, 10 balls will go to Justin Jefferson and he'll have a big day. Yeah. And I think it would be different, caller, if like, if Justin Jefferson's kind of being taken out of the game because of certain coverages that they're putting on him and somebody else is benefiting from that if somebody like t j hawkinson or you know jordan addison when he's playing obviously he's still going to be suspended for this game sunday but somebody else on the offense is getting a lot of chances to eat because of how they're covering

jefferson but in these first two games we haven't seen anybody else really emerge either or benefit from justin jefferson quote unquote not getting the football so that tells you right there that this this offense needs to get it in gear it starts with Jefferson but if Jefferson's not going to get his 10 targets somebody else has got to be getting some of those targets and they've got to be productive and when those guys aren't being productive your offense is a complete mess just to follow up on the Pennix point KFT yeah I know I know the box score stat line there he actually was under pressure 40% of his dropbacks but here I'll give you the key stat and why I loved Michael Pennex's game, zero, zero turnover worthy plays for Michael Pennix in that game.

And if J.J. McCarthy, I promise, I promise, I'll hold me to this. If J.J. McCarthy plays a game where the Vikings run for 200 yards, they control the game the entire time with their defense. And J.J. McCarthy has zero turnover worthy plays. I will be sitting right here with Emmanuel Hill saying, great game J.J. McCarthy. I promise you, I will. And you probably heard me say it for a game or two for Darnold last year at the beginning of the season. I promise you I will, because that's how you play to win in the NFL. It's not necessarily about stat lines. And I thought he played to win.

And that's when you're a young quarterback, that's where you're looking for. Aaron Rogers probably has 300 yards in that game. But when you're a young quarterback, that's what you're trying to do. And that's what I want to see J.J. McCarthy do is have zero turnover worthy plays, manage a game. But they need a lot of other things to work there. They need the running game. They need to move the offense well enough.

And they haven't even put him in a position to play game manager. And he hasn't put himself in a position to play game manager either at any point this season. So let me try to circle back to what the point was. Oh, yeah, Jefferson. 7 to 9 catches, CJ says, for 85 to 105 yards. Yeah, I agree with that. Let's see. I'm just scrolling back.

up for for answers there 98 to 108 yards yeah i mean i think we're all on on kind of the same page there that it needs it needs to be fairly consistently working for just to jefferson in order for this offense to go somewhere so that leads me to this question manny um this is one of the hardest ones to figure out i was walking out today with alec lewis you know the athletic and we're talking about the game and just like what the heck's going to happen in this football game i mean you never really know, you know, but it's like, we can usually get a good sense. And with this one, like, I don't, I don't know. I really think that they should win. Here's what I know. And you could, maybe you've got a better, you know, crystal ball for what's going to happen here. What I know is they got

to win. There are must win games at the end of seasons that we talk about a lot. And I think that this pretty much falls in the category of must win because next week you're facing the Steelers who are not good, but they're not a joke. And Cleveland is a joke. Okay, that's a free win, but it gets so hard after that. And I don't know, like if their quarterback situation is bad and the other team has Miles Garrett, it might not be a free win. I have no idea. They almost beat Cincinnati. So I know that they need it. I don't have a good feeling on if they'll get it. Yeah, it's, it's tricky because I, well, I'll take it here. Christian Darisaw's got to play in this game. he's got he's just i think it's imperative for him to play in this game if he's not ready

obviously you got to think about his long-term feature and everything but i think this is the game that he's got to play because if they got to try just in school or walter rouse out there left tackle to go up against tray anderson it's going to be i don't care if it's j jay mccarthy or carson wince or patrick mahomes or tom brady it's going to be a long afternoon if your left tackle situation is that and you're going up against that as rusher who has led the NFL in sacks the last couple of years so that to me is going to be the the big key for this if christian derisaw plays and he's looking like himself which i have no reason to think it he won't i think 65% of christian derisal would be better than the alternative um then i i like their chances

of winning this game because I think that means that the quarterback is going to be protected and it's going to give Carson Wentz an opportunity to really kind of move this offense. But if he doesn't play, it's going to be a really long day. And I don't know. I mean, Jake Browning is not, he's not Joe Burrow, but he can go out and he's capable of playing well

and winning a game because we've seen him do it for the Bengals already in years past. So that to me is going to be the big key is just getting Darrys out there. And I think it'll really help stabilize everything. because I think that's going to have a domino effect on the rest of the offense. I'll throw this out there for you. Jake Browning, 2.34 seconds average time to throw quickest in the NFL.

It's not a guy that's just some joker back there. Like he'll get the ball out and he'll get it to his playmakers. I think the biggest factor here, so you name the biggest factor. It's whether Derisaw plays. The second biggest factor is I'm just going to name some folks in the secondary. Byron Murphy, Jr., Theo Jackson, Josh Mattelis, Harrison Smith, maybe, very big maybe on that. Jeff O'Kuda, Isaiah Rogers, here's what they need. I'll throw Eric Wilson into this or Ivan Pace, two picks.

I think they need to intercept Jake Browning. He's not accurate. And even though he gets it out quick, he doesn't throw it very hard. Like, they need some game-changing defensive plays, some takeaways to turn this. game in the Vikings favor or I could see them just hanging on to the ball all day with matriculating passes down the football field on a defense that does have to kind of bend not break right now until it's got its full breadth of players. And if they also for the future, if they get run on in this game by Cincinnati, I'm sounding the alarms. I'm getting a big

giant alarm and I'm hammering whatever button makes it go off. If they, they can't be john robinson you don't have the ball day i get it like your quarterback keeps throwing interceptions i get it but if chase brown and this team runs on you then you got some serious problems chase brown is averaging two point i just looked it up he's averaging 2.4 yards a carry yeah if that guy runs for a for for a hundred yards on you then oh boy we're in big big trouble yes um dino suggesting put brandle back at left tackle i i would rather go with rouse for now. I mean, Rouse is a guy that they've drafted and developed. Brandl has not played any tackle. I would go with if Derrissau doesn't play, it would be Rouse to start. But then if he's getting

worked, then go to Brandel. But the last time Brandl had to play on a top notch edge rusher, remember when Micah Parsons just ate him alive in that Sunday night football game where Darisaw got hurt, wouldn't want that either. There's no good option. I'm sorry to inform you that there's it's not like a kicker where you're like maybe there's some other guy kicking at a high school who's fine and then there is a lot of times this is not like that it's not like that with left tackle i got some breaking news for folks tray hendricksson is a monster i literally thought you had real breaking news i was like oh what happened i thought maybe you were looking at twitter or something and like though you really sold that total total total sarcasm tray henderson is

a monster. They need Christian Darrasaw to play in this game. Yes, they do. Giovanni, yes, Josh Oliver was practicing, but only limited. And I think that's a concern for me as well, because that's a guy who's supposed to help your left tackle, but just couldn't be on the field enough. KFT, why haven't the Vikings worked on McCarthy's long windup? So this is, this is what I mean by when I said earlier that we become like the anchorman thing where you're just like, are you just pointing at things and saying that they're a problem? I don't know if his wind-up is a problem or not. I mean, I don't think that the way the ball has actually been thrown is a problem.

I think it's the decision-making that's the problem. There are lots of quarterbacks who use their body to throw the ball. There's quarterbacks who bring the ball down. I mean, you know, there are other quarterbacks who do it really quick. Drew Breeze always brought the ball all the way down and then brought it back up. But Drew Breeze threw with anticipation and had a quick mind and quick eyes. He had to kind of throw that way because his shoulder was broke for half of his career. But there's plenty of quarterbacks who throw with their body or whatever.

The issue to me is just the decision making has to be fast. And West Phillips said it perfect. He said, if you're going to play quick game and you're going to get the ball out, you got to kind of start throwing the ball before the guys even in his break, which means you really have to trust it. That is super hard to do. And that's inexperience, I think. So I don't know.

I'm not a wind-up technical. technician analyst when it comes to that. I've seen that windup before. It's not something I've never seen a quarterback do before. You'd prefer that the guy was, you know, six foot five and only had to do kind of this, you know, whatever, just a little short release, but or like, you know, Aaron Rogers with his and how fast that was. You'd prefer that, but he's also 22. I think there's probably some things to work on through the years. Well, and the wind up is not Tim Tebow slow. Like, Right. Yeah. You know, I mean, I think it's, I think that's just kind of something that is probably getting a little bit overblown. I mean, if it was Tebow level of like slowness and a windup, then I think, yeah, we probably have a huge problem with that. But I don't think it's that bad. Well, and Tebow had no velocity. I think what makes up for it. And Alan can be this way at times too. And I think he's worked really hard on it, Josh Allen, because his was really long to start his career. But I think that velocity helps you there where so even if it takes a little bit extra on this end on the end of the ball and it's how fast it's moving makes a

difference kind of like if it's a shortstop where you might see a shortstop quick but he doesn't have a big arm or you might see a little more wind up but it goes faster gets there about the same time i don't i don't think that defenses are sitting there going yes his wind up is taking so long that we'll just know like the game's moving too fast for that where i do think that they have taken note is the eyes. And when the eyes are exactly where he's going to stare down a target and then go there, that's something that because you have lots of players whose technique is eyes on the quarterback and they're reading and reacting. So I would say that's a little bit more concerning. But I also, I mean, I also think that he's going to get stronger and work on this

for years and they're going to be working on things. I think actually, if anything, when it comes to the windup. I don't think it's the windup. I think that the stride can get a little long and then it can sail on him. That's what I saw during training camp at times. I feel like he's not a natural touch guy who just can guide the ball with the perfect amount of touch on it. And when you, how can I put this? It's like if I was learning how to be like a, what do they call the guys with the bicycles that go like the dirt bike racers or whatever? You know, if I'm, like, alone on the track, I could be like, we and going over the jumps and I'll be okay. That's way different than the race where there's 10 other dudes flying around you and you're trying to ride that bike.

I think that's kind of what practices with some of this stuff versus playing in the real game. Like, you're alone in the gym, make it threes. That doesn't mean you make it in the game. The only way to do that is to play so much that you feel like you're alone in the gym and have that level of comfort. So some of those things that you practice time and time and time again. Did I ever tell you about seeing Dwight Howard? How I went to Orlando with a buddy of mine when Dwight Howard was at his absolute peak. And we got there too early.

So we got there. It was a 7.30 game. We thought it was seven. So we got there like 6.45. So we're just sitting there eating popcorn and watching Dwight Howard practice his free throws. He was shooting about 40% on the season. We watched to make 20 in a row with his coach. Bang, bang, bang, bang.

gets into the game goes one for five. And it was just like, what happened? It's just different. It's just different. And the only way to get better at it, I'm not saying he's Dwight Howard missing free throws because he was never good at it. It's just to demonstrate that it's different when you get out there.

And you usually sort of regress to who you are. So these are things that he needs to be on the field for. Anyway, let's circle back to the football game with the Bengals. So I think that they win fairly on. ugly fairly close. You agree with that? Yeah. This feels like a game that could be really ugly at times and not, not, you know, three nothing like it was in Vegas. The Vikings and Raiders a couple of years ago. But I do, I can kind of see this being kind of ugly and the Vikings winning like a 20, 23 to 17 type of game where it's ugly at times, but then there's some moments where

we see some good quality football. Warm up your leg. in pregame will riker you might be needed in this one is how i'm looking at it i'll go i'll go 1714 i just think it's going to be some turnovers some ugliness some punting the special team's going to have to be good so let's do this before we wrap up it's been a it's been a heavy week uh will be live tomorrow but it's going to be mostly my conversation with andrew kramer with our hardcore position by position breakdown um i'll do at the beginning of the show kind of the injury update and then we'll, you know, go to that and that'll be the show for tomorrow night. But just to add some fun to this, let's talk about your five favorite bengals of all time.

And somebody tossed a Kajana Carter out there, somebody tossed a Jeremy Hill out there. I would love for the chat to toss in a few more random or your favorite bengals of all time for Manny's list. And I am still working through getting us some music back. But I'll get that for the future. I'll get us some music to play underneath some NFL music or something eventually. But for now, for now, your five favorite Cincinnati Bengals of all time, Manny. So let me preface this by saying there are three wide receivers in this top five here.

You know, the Bengals kind of low key, if you think about it, especially now with Chase and Higgins, who they have now, we're both fantastic. Bengals have a nice little history, low key, of some really good wide receivers over the years. even in seasons where they've been pretty bad. So number five on my list is A.J. Green, just terrific, really consistent, especially first half of his career, some injuries and everything in age, kind of caught up to him. But when he was at his best, he was absolutely one of the elite wide receivers in the league. So A.J. Green is number five on my list.

Big fan of A.J. Green always wondered if he had a little better of a quarterback. I think actually if you're making a comparison for Justin Jefferson, like, who's the receiver he is most like, just historically? I think A.J. Green would be a really good answer. Just like great athlete, great basketball player, like very natural catching the football, great size. Yeah, big, big fan of his just sort of got saddled with, you know, Andy Dalton for a large part of his career. And probably was the reason Andy Dalton got to play so much. Number four on the list, another really one of the great wide receivers that the bengos have had is Ocho Cinco, Chad Johnson, really one of the best, like, just in terms of route running and great hands, really one of the most complete wide receivers that we've had, certainly of his generation and really over the last, you know, quarter century. So Chad Johnson, number four in my list.

Jerome Simpson, T.J. Hushmanzada, David Fultz. Pete Johnson. Pete Johnson, I don't remember. That's a old, must be quite an old school one there with him. So Chad Johnson, I was always a little bit, a little bit hot and cold on. I thought he was absolutely hilarious during his career. And I just thought, you know, let him wear the Hall of Fame jacket or eat a hot dog on the side. Like, this is harmless stuff. I get so.

Post to the cheerleader after a touchdown. You know, like it's harmless. It's entertainment. Remember when Jefferson did the too small after he caught a touchdown against the Panthers and they flagged him for it. They're like, oh, come on. That happens every basketball game in the world.

What are we doing here? So I always thought, like, let him have his fun. And as a receiver, he is unbelievable, unbelievable route runner. But I also thought that he had a little bit of that Stefan digs to him where when it went wrong, it went really wrong, and then it went publicly wrong. And that's where I think people kind of got frustrated.

with him and he's kind of a strange guy in post career so i think he was during his career just a great great player really really fun but i thought he had that wide receiver gene in him where if things were not going his way he was going to let you know about it i remember the year uh it was one of the early years when marvin lewis first became the coach and they were playing the kansas city chiefs who were coached by dick from you and they were like undefeated nine and o or something like that and chatted guaranteed he told the media like two days before the game we're going to win on Sunday I guarantee you we're going to win on Sunday and the Bengals went out and they beat the Chiefs so so number three is and this guy had a nice decent run you know in the mid 90s with

the Bengals the teams were terrible but I always kind of liked watching him play had a really nice arm his quarterback Jeff Blake those Bengals teams in the mid-90s. 90s, really bad on defense, but they always seem to have a pretty good offense with a guy that's going to be number one on my list playing with Jeff Blake at that time. But, yeah, Jeff Blake was always a guy that I kind of, as a kid, especially gravitated to watching him play with the Bengals. So Jeff Blake is a guy that I thought in a certain time and place in the NFL would have been really, really good. And I don't know if that time and place is actually right now. I think it was like five years ago from 2015 to 2020, where the play action stuff was crushing it,

deep balls were crushing it. Teams were hunting explosives. You know who'd be a good quarterback for Kevin O'Connell's Jeff Blake? Dude had an absolute freaking canon. I don't think he was the best at executing the underneath stuff. But when he would let it loose, he would let it loose. And he had that one season. I think it was 95. He's a pro bowler. He was really good. The franchise is kind of a disaster. He got another chance with maybe the Saints or something, but kind of flamed out there. Fun quarterback when he played, though,

just a monster arm. So that 95 Bengals team was really fun. Number two on the list is Corey Dillon. Just when he was at his peak as well with the Bengals, he was just one of the great running backs that we've ever seen in the league. And so obviously went on to New England, won a Super Bowl with the Patriots and everything. But I remember, and he was on some bad Bengals teams, too.

You know, he kind of, Marvin Lewis got there. He started to kind of contend a little bit more. But Corey Dillon was another one of those guys that suffered through some lean years with Cincinnati, but was still a really productive back. I think one of the best running backs of all time, a borderline Hall of Fame player. I remember the game listening to it on the radio where he broke the rushing record, the size speed combination was just phenomenal and it really showed you though just how much a running back really means to your wins and losses because they couldn't get good quarterback play they had bad quarterbacks going in and out and just never really worked out for him to be on a great team great player though he was one of those guys that I always tried to get in mad because you just I mean you could run over people but he was also 90 something speed and that was how I used to decide what players I like

back then was just, hey, like, can I get this guy on Madden and how good is he? But Dylan was also another guy that in the fantasy era, in the era of we can watch Red Zone and see every player, he's a player that I feel like I just missed out on seeing enough. Kelvin Johnson is this way for me. Like, what's your favorite Calvin Johnson memory? I mean, there's not many of them because I just didn't see a lot of him with the way that football was, you know, available then, where you're more of reading. box scores with Calvin Johnson be like, this guy must be great, but I've never seen him.

All right. So number one on my list is he's always going to be my favorite bengal of all time. And it's Carl Pickens. Carl Pickens in the 90s. He was played on those mid-90s teams with Jeff Blake. Big reason why Jeff Blake was so successful for those couple of years with the Bengals. And this is a guy. I'm going to read to his stat lines for three straight seasons, 94, 95, 96 for Carl

Pickens. 94, 71 catches, 1,127 yards, and 11 touchdowns. 95, 99 catches, 1234, 17 touchdowns. And 96, 100 catches, 1180 yards, and 12 touchdowns. He was second team all pro in 95 and 96. And mind you, this is with Jerry Rice, Tim Brown, and Chris Carter at the peak of their powers. the NFL and Carl Pickens was second team all pro during that time, really a really great wide receiver. Didn't have a super long career, but when he was at his best, he was fantastic.

Had he only had some quarterback play and a competent franchise, which is really when you just look at the history of the Cincinnati Bengals, I mean, a lot of players, you could say that same thing for, I think they had a lot of fun players in the Andy Dalton era that just got kind of looked over Demonte Pico, you know, guys like, I think there were a lot of really good players, Carlos Dunlap, you know, you go back a little bit, Gino Ackins, right, you go, well, you know, Pac-Man Jones was really controversial at the time because he kept having issues with anything regarding a club, but at the same time, it was a fun player, like a great punt returner, great, you know, those eras of Zimmer where he was their defensive coordinator,

they were, they were excellent. They had, gosh, they had one of their edge rusher that everybody always thought was going to come to the Vikings, and I can't remember who that was. But Dunlap was extremely good. They had Justin Smith for a little bit. Justin Smith, yeah, I don't know if he's the one I was thinking of,

but Justin Smith was really good. So the Palmer era, that was a Justin Smith was a Palmer era, and they had a lot of fun players too. And I was, I was always a fan of Carson Palmer. And when it worked out for him with Bruce Ariens in Arizona, and I was very happy for him because I just thought this guy, you know, you go to a franchise that's that dysfunctional in that time where even like now people still talk about Cincinnati is being dysfunctional. I mean, they were twice as much in the early 2000s and just what a bad

break in that playoff game versus Pittsburgh because I always thought this guy could go to the Hall of Fame someday and then somebody falls on his ankle and then the next thing you know he's playing quarterback for the Raiders. You know, historically, they've got a ton of great players. Anthony Munoz, maybe the best tackle of all time. James Brooks was a really fun player for them. Boomer Asiason. Steve Weish, their head coach, was the guy who was really innovative in a no-huddle offense

that they ran that up-tempo and the Icky shuffle. Even though Ikey Woods wasn't like the best player, at least, you know, he was a lot of fun. So, and Chris Collinsworth, who is at the center of my book, you know, football is a number, game if you guys haven't heard about that so okay manny what a week it's been why don't we uh take a take a break and uh we'll reconvene on monday and see what we've got on our hands i mean i this it wouldn't be us talking vikis football if we had any idea where this thing will take us next so i appreciate your time as always look forward to a roundtable on monday we're going to get MRF table lamp or something so it doesn't look like he's a high he's just in

his basement but manny and i have lights so we'll work on that we'll get murph up to speed but we'll have a good discussion and uh tomorrow night as i mentioned that it'll be Andrew kramer and i we recorded today out at tCO performance center that's more of a hardcore player versus player type of breakdown so uh if you're rewatching this member to answer the fan dual question of the day, which is Jefferson's over under 72.5. How many yards should he end up with if the offense has cooked? So another episode of Purple Insider presented by Fandul, and we'll talk to y'all later. Thank you, Manning, and football.

Football.