Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Vikings minicamp update, Keenan McCardell and ESPN Cleveland's Danny Cunningham

Episode Date: June 8, 2022

Matthew Coller gives an update from Minnesota Vikings minicamp, then we hear from Keenan McCardell on him remaining with the team and coaching Justin Jefferson. ESPN Cleveland's Danny Cunningham joins to discuss whether DeShaun Watson will be playing this year Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider, Matt Tocala here. And before we get into my conversation with Danny Cunningham of ESPN Cleveland and formerly my coworker at 1500 in Minnesota here, and I'll also bring you a conversation with Kena McCardell, the wide receivers coach of the Vikings, who had a lot of interesting things to say at minicamp today. Just wanted to bring a little bit of an update from minicamp. First of all, they were running a little more up-tempo than OTAs. See, minicamp and OTAs, very different things, I guess.

It's similar. We get a little more access at minicamp, and it seems like they're doing a little more full speed, though the offensive and defensive lines, they take the first step of their assignment and that's it. Then they just stop. So there's no pressure on the quarterbacks. They try to kind of give an idea of when there might be pressure or how much time, two and a half, three seconds.

And then it's kind of like, okay, you might be sacked. But they were running some two-minute stuff, some more situational-type drills than we had seen in OTAs. And I don't want to pretend to tell you how they looked out there. I mean, they moved the ball. They made some good throws, some good catches. Adam Thielen had a one-handed catch. As you might expect, Jalen Naylor made a nice catch by the sideline on one play.

But a few things that are worth discussing. One, KJ Osborne and Amir Smith-Marset both didn't practice today, just as they didn't last week in the OTAs. Now, I don't think it's anything to be concerned about. Amir Smith-Marset isn't going to be available until training camp. Kevin O'Connell told us that the last time out. And with KJ Osborne, it wasn't expected to be anything super serious. Kevin O'Connell did not give us any sort of timeline,

but it does show you kind of where they stand on the depth chart that, you know, you're kind of an injury away from BC Johnson being the next man up. And if there are injuries, then he's got a good chance to make the team. Jalen Naylor is going to be behind him. Um, but that competition is going to really play out when it comes to training camp. But those were the two most notable guys that were not practicing. Also, uh, Austin Schlottman.

Now you might say, what are you telling us about Austin Schlottman not being there for him? And I might agree with you, but, the notable part of that is that Chris Reed was playing center. So Chris Reed was brought in as a free agent guard who had never played center before in a regular season game. But I do, I do believe that he had played some center when it came to a preseason games with the Indianapolis Colts before. And he's kind of

a versatile guy can play multiple different positions. So Jesse Davis took the right guard reps with the first team and it was Chris Reed playing center with the second team and then you know on the rest of the offensive line was kind of how you would expect and we talked to Chris Cooper the offensive line coach after practice and asked him about you know Garrett Bradbury and his position and he said look I, Garrett Bradbury and his position. And he said, look, I mean, Garrett Bradbury's taken all the first team reps all the way through the off season. So, you know, he's not going to say that there's a real competition there, but I guess if you were saying things that make you go, Hmm, just even a little bit, uh, that Chris Reed

taking some of those snaps with the second team would be slightly notable that if throughout training camp, they become unhappy with Garrett Bradbury and how he's playing that maybe Chris Reed will get a shot there. I tend to think that that's not really a competition though, that it just says something about if Chris Reed doesn't win the right guard position and Jesse Davis does, which it seems as of right now. And then this is another interesting comment that it's only between those two. But, uh, when we were asking Chris Cooper about it, he said, well, we've got the two experienced guys, meaning Jesse Davis and Chris Reed. And then he said,

and a rookie we're working in as well, which I assume that he means Ed Ingram, but there was no mention of Wyatt Davis who was taking reps. I think at left guard today. Now I could be wrong about that, but Wyatt Davis does not appear to be in this conversation at all. As of this moment, again, we're talking about these guys taking one step and that's the entire rep. So they're not battling it out.

They don't have pads on, but that comment I, was indicative. And remember include Wyatt Davis on that. And what a crazy kind of fall that would be from on draft night two years ago. Wyatt Davis being penciled in is this is your future right guard. You fixed your offensive line. And even as using a second round draft pick on a guard really tells you how they feel about Wyatt Davis considering Ezra Cleveland is locked in. The two tackles are locked in.

It's really only the center and right guard position. And I think that with Bradbury, they're going to give him this year. And maybe if it ends up a situation where they bench him like they did last year, that Chris Reed will be that next man up the way Mason Cole was last season. But it feels like there's no real competition at center the way that Chris Reed will be that next man up the way Mason Cole was last season. But it feels like there's no real competition at center the way that Chris Cooper talked about it today.

If you were wondering, which I know some of you were, because I get questions about this all the time. Kellen Mond was quarterback number three, that when they ran the drills, first team and then second team on the first field where they were doing the majority of their practicing with the first two teams, Sean Manu was the only guy who was doing those situational drills where they'll put up on the scoreboard. It'll say 17, 17, and the clock will be counting down and they've got referees out there for mini camp. I don't know, helping them practice, not clutching and grabbing each other, uh, running routes or whatever. Uh, but they're trying to simulate somewhat of a final drive. Kirk cousins took

a couple of those. Sean Mannion took a couple of those. Kellen Mon did not. So I think that's a pretty good indication that Kellen Mond goes into training camp as quarterback number three, and he'll have a lot of practices in training camp to make up that deficit. But I just want you all to prepare yourselves for now, Sean Mannion potentially being the backup quarterback of this team and not Kellen Mond. Because I think that that tells us it's realistic because we've seen only one practice a week until minicamp where we get to see two. But they've been seeing, I think, eight or maybe nine. And so every day they're going out there and practicing and they're leaning toward Sean Mannion, at least

for the start of training camp. So just get yourself ready for that. If I remember when they brought Mannion back, I got a few tweets that people said, this is the final straw. I can no longer root for the Vikings. They brought back Sean Mannion, which, you know, I don't know. Everybody gets unhinged in the offseason at some point. But like, if you're that person, then, you know, just get just get ready for Sean Manning backup season, because that's kind of where it's pointing at this moment. Very far away, but still taking those reps tells you that right now he's QB number two. Also, Louis seen got a little bit of a look at him with the first team he was mixing in and out with Cam Bynum. And I mean, Louis Seen, I mean,

when you draft someone in the first round, you assume automatically right off the bat that that player is going to be with the first team, end of story,wis scene is a starter and i would assume that that's going to be the case but remember i mean cam bynum played really well when he was asked to step in for harrison smith so it is not a low bar that he's going to have to clear i mean he's going to actually have to play better than cam bynum throughout training camp and preseason and show a better knowledge of the defense. And it's not totally unprecedented that a rookie would come in as a first round draft pick and not get time.

Now, I'm not saying that's going to happen. And they just usually do this with rookies through mini camp and OTAs. So don't, you know, whatever, misunderstand that I'm saying that he's losing the job already. We are so far away from that, but it did make me think today, like that's a real competition, I think between Louis scene and cam Bynum. And it wouldn't totally shock me that if on the first day of training camp, we all go out there and we look, you know, who's playing what team and everything else. And we go, Oh, they're going to really make Louis C and beat Cam Bynum for this job. And I think that there are reasons to be high on Cam Bynum as a defensive back overall.

I don't mean that he's the next Troy Palomalu, but it does take a particular amount of talent to be able to step in the way he did last year and play competently and make plays, get an interception. And I, and to draft Louis scene made us think, oh, okay. They must not be as high on him or it's, he's going to be the guy to beat there. And if he doesn't win that job, then they're going to start moving him around, which speaking of that, moving people around something that I am very intrigued about have only sort of become. So over the last, I don't know, a couple of practices that we've been out there is Daniil Hunter in the standup rusher role. Now, Daniil has not, you know, like he has some experience in doing this and playing the outside linebacker type of role. But I really wonder about how different that's going to be. We're talking about somebody that basically since their first year has not done this.

Daniil brought up one game last year against maybe Arizona where he did some stand-up stuff and they mixed in some 3 four type of concepts but this is really different and we talked to Mike Smith who is the outside linebackers coach right like they have a coach just for the outside linebackers I guess if the Denver Broncos can sell for four and a half billion they can afford a coach for almost every player which is eventually how it's going to be but yeah the outside linebackers coach Mike Smith was talking about just Z'Darrius Smith and Daniil Hunter bonding and learning from each other. And especially since Z'Darrius Smith has been in this system, those two becoming close is very good for Daniil Hunter. But I also think that,

especially since it's out there and the Packers know and everybody else knows in the NFC what type of defense the Vikings are going to be playing, if they're going to face some things with formations or motions or whatever it might be that are going to be angled at trying to get Daniil Hunter to have to cover somebody because they were doing a rep today and I'm watching Daniil Hunter have to cover somebody and thinking how many times has that ever happened that Daniil Hunter has actually had to go out and coverage. And the wonderful part about the internet and about Pro Football Focus's website is that you can find things like this out. So if you look at Daniil Hunter's history in his career, it is not a very common thing. He has only been targeted in coverage 11 times in his career and they've had nine receptions. I mean, it doesn't really matter. But in terms of total coverage snaps, 70 is all the coverage snaps Daniil Hunter has ever had.

So I don't think like, don't freak out. Like, I don't think that, um, is that's the theme of the update here is don't freak out, but I don't think you're going to see it a lot, but I do think that if you're strategizing to play against the Vikings defense, knowing that there is this element of it that way, way, way more often than not, Daniil Hunter is just going to be a regular pass rusher. Mike Smith said it's more 4-3 because you're in nickel all the time. So you're really going to be talking about 70 to 80% of the time. You're looking more like four, three, but when he is coming up with a standup role and I mean, maybe teams are trying to scheme something up. So that's

just like a thing to watch. That's not me saying that offenses are going to put Daniil Hunter in coverage half the time or something like that. It'll still be Daniil Hunter rushing the passer, but that was just something that I was noticing as I was watching training camp today. So, oh, I'm sorry. Mini camp today. Got to get my verbiage, as they like to say, correct. So while I was out there, Keenan McArdle spoke to the media for about 12 minutes. I took the best couple of minutes for you because I think he's just a really interesting guy. It's, and look, you guys know about nineties NFL nostalgia here.

This is Keenan McArdle folks. So no, some interesting things to say about him sticking around. I mean, you think about Kevin O'Connell could have brought in anybody he wanted to be the receivers coach, but Keenan McCardle ends up staying. So he talks about the players standing up for him and wanting him to come back, the receivers in that room. And then also about Justin Jefferson. And I don't know if it's a next step for Justin Jefferson, but he talked about that and some of the competition as well at that position. So we'll bring you that. And then after that interview, it's going to be Danny Cunningham talking about the Deshaun Watson situation.

So thank you all, as always, for listening. And we'll catch you later. You talk about your guys. I talked to KJ last week. He said they went to bat for you. Just what does that mean? The guys clearly wanted you back and kind of made that known. You know what?

It meant a lot to me. I mean, you know, and I called them all and said, you guys didn't have to do that, you know. I think, you know, my resume would have spoke for itself. And if it didn't, you know, it was just part of the process because you know in this coaching business you got to do your job and then hopefully other people see it and see how hard you work but I appreciate all those guys going to bat for me uh it shows you what kind of room we have you know we we take care of each other

uh we look out after each other we we make sure that it's a family in there and that's that's how we feel coach I guess that being said obviously there's a new coaching staff a new offensive system but how beneficial is it to have a lot of carryover on offense and especially within your group it's it's great uh because you got a quarterback that's somewhat been through this system you know and understands some of the things and then you guys you got a group of guys in my room that have played with the quarterback the quarterback understands how how they play he loves how they play they love how he plays so that chemistry right there kind of puts you

ahead of a lot of a lot of a lot of teams that are having coaching changes Keenan what are the next steps for a guy like Justin who's set records in his first two seasons? Continue to get better. Set more goals. Each year's a new year. I tell them that all the time. I tell everybody that. Each year's a new year. Don't rest on your laurels.

Come out and be a different person. I heard Troy Aikman say this one time and say, each year is a new year for him. Each year, he's a different person. I heard Troy Aikman say this one time and say each year is a new year for him. Each year he's a different person so he has to get he has to be a better person. So you know after 10 years Troy Aikman probably could have just sat there and been the same Troy Aikman and everybody would have said yeah but now you know he would say you know the next year is a new year. It's like year one for me and I say that to those guys every day in there you know year is a new year. It's like year one for me. And I say that to those guys every day in there.

You know, this is a new year. You know, why not you? Why not you be set the record for yards, catches in a year? Why not you? You know, what you did last year was good. You know, let's be great. Listening to you and JJ out there, it sounds like he's always asking you questions. How has your relationship with him over the past three years kind of grown?

It's been great. I mean, I think, you know, he understands me. I understand him. You know, and I try to keep it simple. When you've got a great player like that, you try to keep it simple and let his talent do the work. I mean, you help him with things that he may have not seen before and that I have probably seen in my career and I've probably

seen every look that he's seen but you know I try to help him through it and once he gets it he gets it so fast and he knows how to capitalize so you know his talent is is there and I just let let his talent do the work. Hey Keenan I've heard Wes Phillips mentioned that this offense might put more on the plates of the wide receivers just in terms of maybe some unspoken adjustments at the line or stuff like that. What are your impressions of it, and just how do you go about teaching that kind of stuff? You know what, I love it because it puts more onus on us.

We got to put that onus on us to make the passing game work. So we got to be dialed in. We got to communicate. You know, I love it being a former receiver that that that has a control you know it's like we are in control you know we got to make we got to hear it see it run the right routes and make the plays so that puts more ownership on our table uh when you were first coming into the league what were you ninth round pick uh 12th round 12th round how did how did you separate yourself do you remember yes easily um a coach of mine told me uh db coach told me you you have to make a play a day

to keep keep us thinking about you so every every day and practice every practice i was gonna make a play a big play one hand catch was going to make a play, a big play. One-hand catch, run by somebody, make a touchdown in the red zone. I was going to make a play a day. And then he came back and told me, this league is about playmakers. If you're making plays, it's hard to get rid of playmakers. So that's what I did when I was a 12th-round pick. And I caught some PYs. Joining me, a former brief Minnesotan from ESPN Cleveland, that's what i did when i was a 12th round pick and i caught some people's eyes joining me a

former brief minnesotan from espn cleveland my friend danny cunningham what is up danny what's going on buddy oh just enjoying life in lovely cleveland ohio how are you doing matthew uh doing okay doing all right well i wanted to bring you on to have a discussion about what is happening with Deshaun Watson, because I think that it's one of the most challenging stories to talk about and challenging for the NFL. And also one of the stories that could shape the league the most, considering that Deshaun Watson is an incredible football player, but also just had the 24th lawsuit for sexual assault filed against him. I guess, why don't we start there? Like, what does it mean to have another lawsuit get filed? Because it seemed like the minute the Cleveland Browns traded for Deshaun Watson was when they

thought this whole thing looked like it was over. So where do we stand? Yeah, Matthew. And I don't think the Browns or really the NFL stance has changed on this. I do think that the NFL obviously is in the midst of an investigation in the matter about whether or not Watson has violated the personal conduct policy. Now there've been, of course you mentioned a new lawsuit. That's the 24th lawsuit alleging sexual misconduct by Deshaun Watson in essentially massage parthers throughout his time in Houston.

And I don't think that these new accusations coming to light really change how the Browns feel or how the NFL feels. I'm pretty confident in my thinking that the NFL has known about this specific one and all the other specific ones through their finding. It's obviously changing things from a public perception matter because we get a new lawsuit that has very grotesque details in it that emerged earlier today. So I don't think that it changes the thinking of the league. I don't think that it changes the thinking of the Cleveland Browns.

There's 230 million reasons why nothing outside of criminal activity, which Deshaun Watson had been cleared of before the Browns traded him by two separate grand juries in the state of Texas. There's 230 million reasons on that contract for the Browns to not change their feeling on Deshaun Watson. And ultimately, if he's a really good quarterback, they're getting what they paid for. That's that's really what they care about. And of course, they say that they did their their due diligence into him. To what extent is still shrouded in mystery. And I really am, Matthew, fascinated to find out what sort of punishment Watson will receive

from the NFL when their investigation is closed. Well, it seems like the due diligence was, could he go to jail? No. And so, all righty then. He's our quarterback. We're going to trade for him. That probably is the extent of it. And when teams won't answer

to whether they spoke with the alleged victims, you know what the answer is. It's no, we spoke with lawyers who told us that this is probably not going to result in him going to prison at any point and we can deal with any suspension when you think about james winston was suspended i believe six games um or maybe four and the same thing for ben roethlisberger was a relatively short uh suspension kareem hunt was on video kicking a woman and it was an eight game suspension and my guess is that that's kind of what they expect but the nfl is in strange territory here

and this even connects to delvin cook's issue that when it's a civil case like does it violate their personal conduct policy i mean their conduct policy has been interpreted by the same commissioner in many different ways. There were players who were suspended for multiple games for having like a marijuana arrest that got dropped instantly. Or, I mean, think about Kareem Hunt wasn't charged with anything. So you're saying, wait, Deshaun Watson isn't charged with anything, but you suspended Kareem Hunt. Like, how are we dealing with this? And it seems like the NFL is entirely just haphazard however they feel like they want to go with something so in this case i i wouldn't be surprised if there was no suspension or i

wouldn't be surprised that there was a huge hammer laid down on deshaun watson at some point matthew i have to agree with you that i really have no idea what's coming in terms of the suspension because the personal conduct policy she mentioned has been interpreted so many different ways. I mean, you look at a guy like Josh Gordon, wide receiver, used to play for the Browns, who I'm very familiar with covering his career. He basically, and he's still in the league, he's on Kansas City currently, but he basically lost the prime of his career several years because of failed marijuana tests. You mean to tell me that that is worse than anything that Deshaun Watson is alleged to have done or what we saw Browns running back Kareem Hunt do on video? You mean to tell me that is a worse thing?

And it obviously is not. Anyone with a brain knows that to be the case but the way that it's written it's so great that these things can be interpreted a number of different ways and i sort of think that's on purpose i will say i do believe that this is the first investigation of its kind that the ruling or the suggestion is not going to be made by roger goodell right away now of course watson will have the ability to appeal, which is given to him through the collective bargaining agreement. I do believe that Roger Goodell and the NFL could also appeal if they don't like the findings, which I would bet we will see an appeal because no one ever likes the findings.

Of course, like Watson believes that he is completely innocent, did nothing wrong, did not violate any women or disrespect women in any way, as he said multiple times at his Browns introductory press conference. He believes that the suspension should be zero games, that he shouldn't be in any trouble. And the NFL might have a different point of view. But ultimately, it's this is an incredibly interesting case to follow because in a way and I realized that there have been a lot of bad guys in the NFL that have done a lot of bad things, Matthew, but in a way, I think that this case could be sort of a precedent resetter with the way that these things are handled now as compared to when they were, when Ben Roethlisberger was suspended or even more recently with James Winston. I think that this could be something that sort of resets the precedent.

Right. And I think that there's a difference between what those guys were accused of doing and the sheer mass of people accusing Deshaun Watson of all pretty much the same thing. Now, there's another case that is with Trevor Bauer in the Los Angeles Dodgers, where it's still in flux and yet Major League Baseball is suspending him for two years and that did make me wonder if the NFL would look at Major League Baseball doing this with Trevor Bauer and really laying down the hammer on Bauer which they must have found a lot of evidence that he was uh doing the things he was accused of doing. And then his attacks on people after that on social media and so forth were also a very bad look for the league.

But it ran through my mind that Roger Goodell would have to take note of another major league looking more progressive on this matter or harder on this matter or smarter on this matter than them but i also just cannot see the nfl laying down a two-year suspension on a player that would be completely unprecedented and totally shocking yeah matthew and a couple of things go into comparing the trevor bauer situation to the deshaun watson situation that I do think are important to note. One, and the accusations against Bauer are not only sexual manner, but they're also a very violent accusation. It's not just, you know, violating women in a sexual way. It was a

physical violence type of thing. So I do think when you combine those sorts of things, it's an even worse look, despite the fact that the number of accusations against him are lesser than that of Deshaun Watson, because Watson has not been accused by anybody of rape and he's not been accused of anybody of being a violent type of offender. So I do think that's something that's worth noting. I also would find it very, I guess, interesting is the right word to see the NFL follow the course of Major League Baseball. I just think that the NFL kind of sits on its own island where they care about themselves. They really don't care what happens in baseball. They really don't care what happens in basketball. They probably don't know anything that happens in hockey. Like the NFL cares about the NFL, and they're going to decide what they want to decide

because they view themselves, and I guess rightfully so with the way that we care about this sport and talk about this sport, they view themselves as we are what matters most. Baseball can do whatever it wants. It doesn't affect us. Whether that's right or wrong, I don't know. But if I had to guess, the two suspensions between what Trevor Bauer has received from baseball and what Deshaun Watson could potentially receive from the NFL don't really relate to each other. Yeah, I think that's fair enough. Maybe, I mean, just thinking about

like what they often just react to whatever kind of pressure is on them. Right. Like with Ray Rice, if I'm not mistaken, they didn't suspend him at first or maybe suspended him. He got two games. Two games. Right. He suspended two games originally. And then the videotape came out.

Right. I believe the suspension was then increased to six, but he never played football again. Right. Right. Right. So it ended up more or less being on the team. Now something,

uh, talking to Danny Cunningham, by the way, ESPN Cleveland, Danny, I mean, again right right right so it ended up more or less being on the team now something uh talking to danny cunningham by the way espn cleveland danny i mean something we've been talking about on the show here tonight is about teams and the way that they present themselves publicly and just what like what all that means i mean if you're the Cleveland Browns, the message you're sending to your community in Cleveland is, hey, if you don't like this potentially serial sex offender, that's a you problem. Come watch him play football. And while that's super icy cold and kind of disgusting, there's also a part of me that understands people who just look at sports as if like look that guy and his off-field stuff is not my problem and go browns um i i'm not saying that that's the

right way to look at it because i've never been able to get to a point where i think that that's an okay view to just say sorry ladies yeah he's a creep but he's on our team he's our creep um but i wonder how you feel with that i mean you on radio talk with fans every day about this subject which i'm sure is a joy for you but i mean but i guess i guess how do you view that with a team just saying look we don't care at all how you feel about this. Here's the biggest contract of all time, Deshaun. I think that there is a faction of fans that, you know, you brought up. They don't care. They just want the Browns to win.

The Browns in my lifetime have won two playoff games. One of them came in 1994 and the other one came back in 2020. There's a large faction of fans that they don't care what Deshaun Watson may have allegedly done, may have allegedly not done. That doesn't matter to him. But the fact that he is, let's be honest, really, really good at football. There is no question about that. When he's on the field, he's one of the best quarterbacks in the game. That's what they care about.

Because with him, the Browns are a team that could be potentially good enough to win a Super Bowl. And for a lot of people, that's all that matters. And I'm not saying that I am one of those people, but I can sympathize with them, especially with everything that's going on in the world right now, Matthew, where there are so many things just in our world that are worth being upset about, that are worth stressing about, that make it feel almost on a daily basis like the world is coming to an end in a sense.

There are people out there that on Sunday at noon, they want to sit on the couch, watch TV. They don't care what anyone on that field has done off the field. They just want to be made happy by the guys that are wearing their favorite colors that's all that matters and i i'm not saying that's a right or wrong way of doing it but it's a way of doing it that i understand and then of course there's the other side of the coin where there are many people that i know that they're not browns fans anymore because of this, because they don't feel as if they can support this type of person who allegedly did these things on the football team. And that

matters to them. But I do see both sides of it. At the end of the day, there are people that they just want to be happy watching football. They don't care that, you know, running back Kareem Hunt has an issue with an off the field thing in the past. They don't care that Deshaun Watson may have allegedly violated 24 women and is accused of sexual misconduct by all those women in civil court right now. That doesn't matter to them. What matters to some people. And again, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, is that he's really good at football. Yeah, I think that there are extremes to this i mean if one player has one problem i mean you can look at that and say sort of isolated incident when somebody is accused of 24 lawsuits how can you look at it how can you go to a game and be like yeah my team cares about the community we brought this guy to the community but but they certainly care. And so teams are always trying to put up these fronts of, oh, we can't like Kevin Stefanski

was on a zoom call for like women trying to get into NFL coaching right before they traded for Deshaun Watson. Like, I'm sorry, man, but that's about the most hypocritical thing I've ever seen. I mean, there's no way to look at, there's no way to look at this and say, Oh, okay, well this team that's claiming to care about the community and pumping up all its community efforts and more diversity in the front office and everything else. And then you trade for this person. For me, it's either be all in or be all out and don't claim that you're about anything else. You almost have to respect the, respect the Dallas Cowboys from back in the day where Jerry Jones is

like, yeah, I don't care. Whatever, whatever Michael Irvin is snorting up his nose. I do not care. Like we are here to win football games and don't care about anything else. I think that that's gotten, I think frustrating for me. And also, I mean, that's the, in a way the problem when something becomes so big, there's literally no way to hold it accountable because the NFL and the Cleveland Browns know, yeah, you guys are going to show up.

And even if you, you, you, and you don't, other people will take your season tickets. And so we're asking them to have some sort of moral standard when they're so big, they don't have to. And I think that that has to be really frustrating for a lot of fans. Yeah. And that's kind of the, I'm confident saying that the NFL cares about two things genuinely, or at least teams, they care about money and they care about winning. Yeah. Sean Watson can help them win.

That is ultimately what really does matter and you know you make the case about the the hypocritical aspect of Stefanski going on a call about women getting into coaching and how bad that looks after the fact and I don't want to defend the Browns here because it is a very hypocritical thing but organizationally at least prior to Deshaun Watson showing up they had been an organization that really had done those things andrew berry obviously is a minority general manager they've had several minority head coaches of course no head coach of the browns really until kevin stefanski regardless of anything else has been very good but though minorities have gotten a

chance in cleveland with the browns if you look at their chief of staff right now is Kelly Bronson, a woman. Kwesi Adofu-Mensah, the new general manager of the Vikings, who I'm sure everyone up there loves so very much, came from the Cleveland Browns and was Andrew Barry's right hand man. But it is a hypocritical thing to say we are going to do these things for women. We're going to do these things for minorities, which they genuinely had done and then turn around and do this because at the end of the day, all those things are nice and it looks better as an organization, but those things don't help you win football games the way that Deshaun Watson can. Right. Right. And, uh, if you sell your soul, um, the NFL rarely makes you pay for it. And that's correct. I think for a lot of a lot of fans, that has to be very frustrating.

And I don't have an answer for it. And I also don't want to tell the person that doesn't care. No, you're wrong. You have to care. Like, no, you don't have to care about anything you can. And also trying to avoid, I mean, anything. I mean, Michael Jackson songs or something like it's really hard to avoid in any sort of entertainment, anything problematic. So, uh, it comes back to the whole, it comes back to the whole separating the art from the artist here.

And I'm not trying to, you know, call football arts, although I'm sure you certainly would. But like, do I think Kanye West is the best person around no i i don't i think there's a lot of issues with him do i think kanye west has created some of the best rap music i've ever heard i do am i not going to listen to some of his older music because i don't agree with the things that kanye west does no i i still enjoy songs. So I do think that there is merit to that where there are a lot of people out there that their teams, let's face it, every team in the NFL has someone on it that has done something that's less than savory. Right. But at the end of the day, I can't tell you to not cheer for the Browns because of Deshaun Watson or the Vikings,

because they may have had a guy that's done something or the Los Angeles chargers, because something happened out there. At the end of the day, you have every right to be a fan of the team that you want to be a fan of. And if you can separate the art from the artist, it's going to make your, it's going to make your experience on Thursday night,

on Sunday afternoon, on Sunday night and on Monday night as a football fan, much more enjoyable. Yeah. But I also think that you can look at that team and say, you know, and I'm just going to cheer for somebody else whose quarterback didn't do that. It's not, it's not a linebacker. It's, it is the face in the front door of the organization. It's not somebody, if you wait around a little while while they'll kind of be on their way out it is the true like franchise player and uh the accusations are so extreme that i think that this situation is different from some something else where it's like oh well that team's got a wide receiver who x y or z you know what i mean so that's a fair point too that's a very fair point

that this is the you know this is the guy on the commercials and i'm not saying he's going to be on commercials in the near future but probably not yeah you know when the monday night football graphic comes out each and every week whether like if it's you know the cardinals and the rams it's going to be matthew stafford or and kyler murray like that's just the nature of the position it's the most important position in sports not only on the field but from a marketing standpoint too right danny great stuff great to catch up with you man uh at real d cunningham on twitter espn cleveland from five to seven eastern time if you're perusing the internet and want to listen to danny talk for some reason uh, always great to catch up with you, buddy. I know it's a weird subject, but, um, you know, it's, it's one that's really

kind of dominating the headlines at the moment. So I appreciate the time that you took here and we'll talk again soon. My pleasure, Matthew. Thanks for having me.