Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Vikings TE Brandon Dillon and ESPN's Courtney Cronin talk about the start of training camp

Episode Date: August 18, 2020

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Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. We welcome into the show Minnesota Vikings tight end Brandon Dillon. What is up, Brandon? What's up? How are you? I am doing very well. I've got a question for you to start this off. Have you ever heard of a thing called Mr. Mankato? Do you know what that is?

Yeah, I have heard of Mr. Mankato. I've heard it a couple times on Twitter. Well, good, because you were Mr. Mankato. Okay. I've heard it all the time on Twitter. Well, good, because you were Mr. Mankato last year. You were the guy that no one ever heard of, sorry, coming into training camp, and then you have a very good camp, you have a very good preseason, and then you make the roster out of camp. You are with the team on the practice squad all last year. So I have to ask you how one becomes Mr. Mankato.

So what was it last year in training camp and then through those preseason games that the guys won't get opportunities this year that helped you make the team out of camp? I'd say the biggest thing for me was just knowing the playbook, just knowing inside and out, being able to back up multiple positions, and really just working hard. Like, I mean, camps are grind, and everyone has to work hard. But I feel like as an undrafted guy, you just have to prove yourself just working hard. Like, I mean, camps are grind and everyone has to work hard. But I feel like as an undrafted guy, you just have to prove yourself just a little bit more, go the extra mile, stay out, catch balls after practice, QBs.

So basically I try to make myself available for anything and everything I could do just to help the team. And I think I just went a long way. Did you have a sense early on that you were, I guess, making your way up the depth chart and getting the attention of the coaches. It's always really tough when you're the undrafted free agent and you're coming in, but I remember Mike Zimmer name dropping you, and I think a lot of us reporters went like, wait, who did he just mention is impressing him? It seemed like it caught on pretty early.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think in the beginning, the rookies, I mean, they just want to see kind of how smart they are and what they can do on the field, like, with all the mental stuff. So I think I was kind of, the first name drop was more mental, like I knew what I was doing. So he was impressed with that. So that's why I kind of got the opportunity and then there it's just physical and just working hard. So that's what's kind of what, I wouldn't say that's one point where I was like, okay, this is where I'm going to make

a roster. But, I mean, I'm really just following Rudy and Conk's footsteps and just kind of follow whatever Rudy does. I mean, he's been here for 10 years. He knows exactly what he's doing. So it's a perfect event to look up to. I mean, and it's the perfect offense to be a tight end in with Gary Kubiak. Like, whoever you love in your life, Gary Kubiak loves tight ends that much.

Exactly. But he has a lot of the tight ends. I mean, you see being lined up outside, being lined up in the slot sometimes, even shifting to the backfield if you have to. How difficult are those responsibilities to learn when you are just arriving as a rookie as you were last year? Yeah, it definitely takes a little onboarding process, I would say. So, I mean, just kind of trying to figure out all the different positions.

There's multiple positions of tight end, fullback. We're cross-trained with everything. We know the wide receiver, the O-line, running back. We have to know all of it. So there definitely is an onboarding process, and they have it down to an exact science, how they want to load the offense and how they want to treat the tight end. They don't want to overload you to begin with, which is nice,

but it's definitely, definitely a steep learning curve at first. Now, I remember a moment last year you made a couple of nice catches, and Kirk Cousins turned around to us and he said, that's the Marion Flash because you went to Marion, which I want to ask you about. First, is that the worst nickname you've ever been given? But second, I mean, that had to be a nice moment for you to get, you know, sort of the attention of Cousins, even if it was a very lame nickname. No, exactly.

Yeah, no, there's definitely worse nicknames to be had. I really don't mind it. They started asking me this year, like, do you mind the marrying flash? I don't really mind it. It is what it is. There's definitely a lot worse nicknames there can be. But, yeah, last year with Kirk, he just kind of took it and ran with it. I mean, it's definitely a good thing to have the starting quarterback

know you're – give a nickname, really. He was always rooting for me. Really nice guy. Always supportive. If I have any questions, go ask him. So he really helped me last year. He's kind of helped me get adjusted to all the guys and just everything with that.

Well, if someone gives you a nickname, that means they've noticed you. But I think they're the Marion Knights, right? They are, yes. The Dark Knight tight end. I mean, there has to be better nicknames that you've had in the past. Yeah, we might have to have a vote or something so we can figure out a better nickname. I want you to talk about coming from Marion because I will be honest with you. As someone who went to a college that no one's ever heard of,

I had never heard of your college, but you were recruited by other MAC schools and things like that. How did you end up going to Marion? So basically, it starts with my high school. My high school was one of the smallest high schools in Indiana. So I graduated with like 70 kids in my graduating class. I played three sports in high school, so I never really focused just on football.

I never went to all the camps and stuff. So I kind of got, I went to a couple of camps my senior year, and they were like, okay, you're from a small school. We want to give you a preferred walk-on or something. Marion came in. They had just lost the national championship the year before, and they were kind of like, hey, we're going to give you a scholarship to come play. So at that point, it was a money option.

Where am I going to spend less money? And then Marion's only an hour away. I'm an hour north of Indianapolis. So it was honestly a perfect fit. I came in. They had me in a tight end position at the time. So they told me that. And I was like, hey, this is our vision for you in the future is just kind of be the move

tight end and just be able to really help the offense. So it was a match made in heaven. Tell me about your town that you grew up in. Because I grew up in a one gas station town. Maybe we had multiple stoplights, but I'm not entirely sure. One pizza place. Was that you in Indiana? That's exactly us.

We had zero stoplights. We had one stoplight. One stoplight in the county. There's two schools in the county, and they're both small. So, yeah, definitely the rural country living is where I grew up. But I definitely loved it, and I would encourage everyone to try it at least once in their life and live in a small town. It's definitely an experience.

Was it a more cows than people situation? More pigs than people. Indiana's biggest pigs. Pigs, yep. Okay, sorry. People get offended. Now, you also played basketball, right, in high school. So I had this conversation with actually Irv Smith's dad, Irv Smith Sr.,

who played in the NFL for a long time, about how tight ends and basketball just seem to go together super well. Why do you think that is? I think it's just the size. I think tight ends are one of the most athletic positions on the field just because you have to be – I mean, you're tall. You have to be able to block. You have to be able to block. You have to be able to run.

So a lot of that translates to basketball. So, I mean, obviously the skill of basketball you have to develop when you're little. But coming from Indiana, I think pride in the skill in basketball. I mean, that's basketball country right there. So, yeah, I mean, there's a lot of correlations between tight ends. I mean, just the physical aspect I think is the biggest thing. Now you are in a room with some tremendous basketball players.

Irv Smith was a good basketball player as a kid. Kyle Rudolph can really play. What's your game? Are you outside shooter? You had to be, I mean, for your town, you had to be in the paint, right? I was like a three, three or four. We had another kid who was pretty big, too. Yeah.

So I think I finished my career with like 980 points. So I was right under 1,000. So it was close. Okay. All right. That's not bad. Brandon, I want to hear about the year two goals here because a lot of guys who are rookies, when they come into their second year,

they talk about that offseason. And I know it's been wonky as hell this year. But what were the goals for you coming out of last year to potentially make the team this year? And where did you want to get better? Yeah, really just transform my body, become more quicker, more agile, just get adjusted to the game. Last year, I mean, I didn't know what I was getting myself into,

but now I know what's expected of me. I know the conditioning I have to be in, the agility, the routes, everything. Just doing that, getting my body in the right place it needs to be, and really just being able to back up every position with tight end, fullback, everything, anything that the team asks of me, just be able to do that. Really working on special teams, didn't play any of that in college, so just kind of trying to get the feel for that.

I feel like I'm doing a pretty good job at that. So really just overall knowledge of the game and just improving my body. You know, it was my goal to improve my body too this offseason, and you know what? Pizza got in the way. Quarantine got everybody. Yeah, that's what I'll blame it on, definitely quarantine. The golf game didn't improve either, so at least I have the –

No one's good at golf. Do you play a lot? I play a lot and I'm terrible. I just started playing this summer, and it was good days, bad days, but never a great day. But definitely need some work. Need to get some tips from Kyle. Well, you know, Thielen is like an unbelievable beast on the golf course,

and I was watching him. He was like on TV playing golf. I was like, I don't know how a human being swings that well and putts that well especially the putting which should just be outlawed I think I would be okay without putting but it's a disaster yeah golf is a a strenuous game for sure yeah well uh Brandon it's it's fun to uh chat with you I was going to ask you what your other quarantine activities were. I'm sure that you were spending a lot of time working out, as you said.

Everybody was kind of stuck at home here, and especially, you know, you guys have a responsibility to make sure you're not doing anything. So was it Netflix? Was it learning a new talent? What were you doing in the quarantine? I got a dog. So me and my girlfriend got a dog back in Indiana. So that took up a lot of time.

It's a yellow lab retriever. So that definitely took a lot of time. But really just working out, hanging out with some friends, playing some video games, nothing too crazy. Well, that's good. That's good for you with the dog. I have a greyhound that was adopted, a former race dog. Well, Brandon, it's been fun to catch up with you.

I need you before you go to give me your Mr. Mankato pick for the rookies who are coming in. Who's going to be the you of this year? What's the criteria? Okay, so it has to be a guy that's drafted in the third round or later or undrafted. And now what's hard is there's no preseason game. So you in the fourth preseason game solidified being Mr. Mankato. But it's usually somebody who's got a good story. They come from a college that no one's heard of or a small town in Indiana,

and they end up making the roster or kind of making some noise. Can I give two? Absolutely. All right, I'm going to give Jake Lucina, just because he's a small school guy, and then Dan Tracina. Oh, okay. How fast is he down there? Because he's the track guy, right?

He's stupid fast. He's got real speed. So once he figures it out, I think he's going to be special. See, I think you have great instincts for this because Dan Tracine is the one where everyone's like, wait, he caught three passes in college, and now he's like out there doing it? Good story. And then Jake's from a small school.

So, yeah, those are my two picks. You get it. You can participate in the voting for this year. Great to catch up with you, Brandon. I will see you from a far distance now um you know last year i we were up close and i've told people before when you're on the sideline at training camp you really get a feeling how insanely fast everything happens in the nfl but now we're like way back away from you so i'll wave all right that's up to you all right

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That's S-O-T-A-S-T-I-C-K.com and use the promo code PurpleInsider for free shipping. ESPN's Courtney Cronin. And Courtney, we have so much going on with the first day of padded practice that I think I'm just going to say a thing and then you react to a thing so I'm down with it let's start with this thing Cameron Dantzler pretty good so far pretty good pretty big like that's the first reaction I had is like holy crap this guy is bigger than I thought because you know his nickname his nickname's The Needle. He, you know, was talking about just, like, coming into the NFL, and we talked to him in April the night he was drafted about, you know,

putting some weight on his frame and, you know, just becoming, like, a bigger guy. He's 6'2", 6'3". I mean, he's tall. So when I saw him, I was like, whoa, he either filled out or maybe I just had the wrong vision of him. Because I think I told you before, like I covered this kid's recruitment back like 2015. Like so he went to Mississippi State, obviously. I never got to cover him in college before I left.

But I remember then he was lanky and tall and just kind of this, you know, lean specimen that you expected to turn into a really athletic corner. But some of the plays that he made these last three days in practice, and he's getting some good reps with the one ones, you know, and he was playing outside corner on that final series of 11 on 11, and he broke up that pass. I'll be it. It was a slightly underthrown ball by Kirk Cousins,

but a pass intended for Adam Thielen. That turned a lot of heads. I think that that was a, probably the biggest splash play we've seen so far in the very limited time that we've seen these guys out in the field. But I walked away very impressed with that. And when I think about how this cornerback group is going to shake out, and you see Mike Hughes and Jeff Gladney both with the ones, splitting reps in the nickel and also outside

and trying to figure out where holton hill goes in that mix they have more depth than i thought they would more further along they're the group is further along at least as it appears right now granted it's still camp they just put the pads on but a lot more to choose from than i anticipated and cam dansler very early on making impressions that make me think he could potentially play a sizable role this year. Well, the swingmen for whether they have depth and the corners could be decent to maybe even potentially good are, who you mentioned, Holton Hill and Cam Dantzler, and as much as Dantzler has quickly emerged here in the first couple of days as

somebody to keep a very close eye on, and I'm not going to declare him the winner of an outside starting job just yet, but he's flashed, as Mike Zimmer likes to say here early in camp. Zimmer was a little more lukewarm on Holton Hill. He said that he still has to learn how to correct things that he's been told how to correct, but he's also been getting a lot of first-team reps. I mean, we mentioned Dantzler making a big play against Adam Thielen, but it's been Holton Hill is taking, I don't know, 80 or 90% of the first team reps at outside corner. Do you think he stays there? And when they play nickel package, which is going to be 80% of the time, it'll be him on the outside along with Gladney on the outside, Hughes on the inside, the other way or the other way around. I mean, what's the early feeling here?

Because they have been rotating quite a bit. Yeah, and that's like why it's hard to gather just because I know that Mike Hughes has only taken reps of the ones. So we should at least just point that out. Some of, you know, there were back-to-back series earlier today during the team portion where Gladney was staying in there with the ones at nickel, and then he stayed in with the second team defense at nickel, which I thought was kind of interesting.

Just, you know, they clearly want to get him a look there, which is kind of reminiscent when you think back to Mike Hughes' rookie year. You know, when he went, you know, he started in the nickel, like, you know, early on that season because Mackenzie Alexander was hurt. So, you know, do they want to kind of do the same thing with Jeff Gladney, use some of that position flexibility? Because you talk to a lot of people, different scouts across the board, you know, he was one of the top star players, you know,

that star position on the defense coming out of college. That's why he was a first-round pick. And if he can play that position and make it a little bit more seamless than having maybe a year or two, then I think they can kind of get their, you know, their bang for their buck by having that sort of flexibility of being able to play him wherever. But if I had to guess, it'd be Hilton, Hilton, Hilton, Hilton Hill. Griffin once called him in a press conference.

Hilton Hill, probably at right corner back, and then you'd probably put, you know, Gladney at left when Hughes is in the nickel. And if Hughes is not in the nickel, then, you know, I think that Gladney probably has a shot at that because you really haven't seen outside of, you know, the first two teams, like you haven't seen anybody else mixed into those positions. Yeah, maybe in the base package it would just be Hughes and Holton Hill as the outside corners, I think.

But it was just the first day of padded practice that we're reacting to here. I just think it's interesting that on draft night, we could all sense that Cam Dantzler was a pick that had a chance to surprise us because anybody who had watched his film and the draft analysts that you trust said, look, that NFL combine really wasn't a good representation of what he could do. And then when you look at the PFF numbers from his last season, he only allowed a 41% completion percentage of SEC teams throwing against him. And when he played LSU, it was one of the guys that was not lit up by LSU.

And that says a lot in terms of how quickly you might be able to transition. Though I am going to pump a little bit of brakes. I just put out one tweet with some eyeball emojis, and already I got comparisons to Richard Sherman for Kim Gensler. And I think if you're saying that he's going to be better than Jeff Gladney long-term, I get where you're coming from, but we've got a long way to go here. Yeah. I think that that's something that, you know, it's the first day of padded practice.

Maybe people are just so starved for this whole thing that that's what works that they're expecting. And they're just, you know, taking this a little too far. But, you know, the upside there, you don't find corners of that size, a Xavier Rhodes sized corner, even bigger, you just don't find those guys that are that athletic and can move that way. And I know that there are some questions about his pro day or you know the speed speed of the 40 that he ran and in the video and you know all that stuff that came out and just kind of questioning like okay how fast actually is this guy I mean he's kept up really well so I think that there's no question for the Vikings that he can be that guy and in you know for a third round

corner to come in and contribute right away is a very good sign of hitting high on a draft pick. All right, with the wide receivers, it's Thielen and B.C. Johnson when they're running two tight ends or two running backs. And when there's a slot receiver in, it's Justin Jefferson. But I would also say that Justin Jefferson has looked pretty good when he's been in. He's also been working on the outside receiver as a second teamer, so with the Sean Mannion group, and I think this is the way it's probably going to stay, Courtney, as much as Justin Jefferson told us on the Zoom call that, oh, the offense is exactly the

same as LSU, or there's a lot of similarity, like, okay, sure, yeah, sure there is. I mean, I believe you that he's farther along than some people would be coming out of college, but it's not the same. And I think what we see here is that BC Johnson is going to have a chance to break out potentially and hold down this number two outside wide receiver spot. just because of the way they use their draft capital and, you know, trading the pick away, trading digs away for a hall of picks and using that the highest pick that they got to go draft the receiver to replace him. I mean, that's a great storyline and everything, but BC Johnson, I mean, he's got some swagger to him. You know, you hear him talk about just how confident he sounds when we had him on the zoom interview on Monday this week and, you know,

all the stuff that he could do. I mean, you think about the similarities between where he was as a rookie, as a seventh-round pick, and where Justin Jefferson was. They both had a fairly defined route tree. That's the one thing that Mike Zimmer, Gary Kubiak, every time we ask him about it, they'll point to that with Justin Jefferson, just because he did run a pro-style offense at LSU. Yes, it's not the same as the NFL.

It had some NFL-like tendencies to it, but, you know, it's just not the same. But, granted, he knows what a rap tree is, unlike some receivers that have come into this team. Like whom? Whom could you be referring to? The last first-round receiver that they had. But, like, B.C. Johnson, think about it last year. They had four rookies

I want to say that I remember on the they were on the side field with Drew Petson one day the former wide receivers coach but halfway through camp so not July not the first week of August but halfway through camp four receivers so it's like Alexander Hollins Dylan Mitchell there's everybody but BC Johnson and these guys could barely figure out how to line up, and they could barely figure out how to get in and out of their breaks. And I remember Mike Zimmer was kind of like, he kind of called them out, being like, these guys have to do better. You don't have that with this group of receivers so far,

at least with these rookies. And, you know, comparing B.C. Johnson and Justin Jefferson, I think that that's the one thing you can take. They both came to this team with a defined route tree and to, you know, being able to do more than what, you know, rookies can typically be asked of. And that's why I think Johnson kind of had a leg up on the competition for sure last year is the only rookie to make the, you know,

the 53 at that position, but they're not in a bad spot. They've gotten good depth. I know what Gary Kubiak said about having your top four guys. I mean, this could be actually like a surprisingly very difficult position to flush out because, you know, obviously it's Phelan. Obviously it's Jefferson and B.C. Johnson. But if you have like four or five, who's your fourth and your fifth? B.B. and Tajay Sharp?

Could it potentially be K.J. Osborne? I mean, we haven't seen enough of him yet, but there are some really interesting concepts that I think with this receiver position that really intrigued me, and that should be a more intriguing position battle for people down the stretch of camp. Yeah, when he says four, is it Beebe or is it Tajay Sharp, who's number four? I tend to think that it's probably Beebe,

just based on past history of bringing in a guy for almost no money off the free agent market and how that's worked out, the Kendall Wrights and the Jordan Taylors. We thought, oh, Koobz, he loves Jordan Taylor. They're best friends forever. He's going to make the roster. And then he just didn't play very well in training camp, and he ended up getting cut.

And Beebe is a guy that they have really shown a lot of loyalty here. To even still be around after having two straight years of injuries is pretty tough, and they seem to like him. He has a unique ability to get open when he's coming out of the slot. And, you know, if Tajay Sharp doesn't show the same thing, he's not going to make this team. But the thing about those two is neither one of them really play special teams, and that's always discussed by Mike Zimmer. If you're going to be the number four or five, then you have to be a good special teamer,

and I'm not sure I see that out of either one. So maybe there is a door open for somebody like Alexander Holland. The fact that Dylan Mitchell has not moved up really into the second team makes me think he still has a long way to go if that's ever going to happen, and it probably isn't. So I look at it like those guys are in that mix, and then KJ Osborne has to win the punt returning job. Yeah, for sure, and it's like, I don't know. They say that every year about the wide receiver position. These guys, you know, bottom of the depth chart depth chart you got to play special teams who can you think of at the wide receiver position for this team though that's actually been like a serious can i mean outside of feeling in 2014 or whatever but like they haven't had a serious

contributor at the wide receiver position um on special teams in a while i mean you can say what you want about laquan treadwell that was never was never, he wasn't drafted to be a special team or to get, you know, fine for crack back blocking. It wasn't bad at it, but I mean, that was, that was not what his ceiling was supposed to be. Nonetheless, you know, when you bring up somebody like KJ Osborne, I mean, that is his ticket to this roster to be, you know, a return specialist. And does he end up knocking somebody off the depth chart just because that's

what he can do and that's how they really think he can contribute? That'll make things really interesting as the numbers game kind of plays out here. So, all right, we know that there's an open competition, corner, wide receiver. We've kind of got the starting points. I'm not sensing that there is a big competition on the defensive line. Are you?

Nope, not anymore. Yeah, it kind of feels like that's decided and that Jaleel Johnson is going to be the guy along with Shamar Steffen. And it's been a roller coaster with Armond Watts where we thought, oh, he's just going to be the guy and he's going to step right in and Jaleel Johnson might fall right off the map. And now Jaleel Johnson is looking like he's in line to be a starter, and I'm not sure Armond Watts is going to be more than a rotational player.

Yeah, I mean, I still think it's early, and sometimes I worry about the ceiling with Jaleel. I know that everybody has boasted he's played a lot of football, like he knows his defense. Okay, did it really take till year four to figure that out? Like, is there something that we missed? Or is this just a byproduct of not having what you need at that position? I think he likes playing the three technique better than he likes playing nose. He's talked about it. Obviously, those guys are, you know, they say they're interchangeable. They say they are brought in here and they are taught both nose and three technique but obviously you're going to

find that some guys are better at one position than they are the other and I think that Jaleel is better at you know being able to kind of push you know or you know be the source of that interior push and being able to you know pressure the quarterback probably better at that three technique position than Shamar Steffen. I don't know why it took so long for us to find out that answer, considering it felt like the most obvious thing that Shamar Steffen is a nose tackle, given the strength, given the size, all things Mike Zimmer and Andre Patterson talked about,

but also just what he wasn't able to do and kind of what they needed at that three technique position on earlier downs. So the way I look at it is it's Shamar Steffen's job at nose tackle Armand Watts is probably right behind him um but everything changed when Michael Pierce opted out like if Shamar Steffen was staying at three technique then we're talking about that position being one of the biggest ones in camp if you know now that Michael Pierce isn't there and it's you have your you know you have Shamar as your starter you have Michael Pierce or um Armand Watts as your as your backup and then

you have three techniques probably what Jaleel Johnson and then Hercules Madaf has gotten in there but the one thing that's kind of intriguing to me is Jalen Holmes and how they're using him with Daniil Hunter sitting out um he has some sort of light tweak or whatever Mike Zimmer said it was. You know, Holmes played outside in college, and he was brought in here and was learning under Sheldon Richardson in 2018 after he was drafted as a defensive tackle. So he's got the speed to play on the edge, and that one's going to be really intriguing to me as far as it talks about, as we talk about kind of like some of those rotational edge rushers. We'll get back to the conversation in just a minute, but first got to tell you about TheraOne CBD. From tight muscles, tough workouts, signs of aging,

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Use the promo code BLUEWIRE at checkout to get 15% off your subscription. Visit NFLSundayTicket.tv and use promo code BLUEWIRE at checkout to get 15% off your subscription. Visit NFLSundayTicket.tv and use promo code BLUEWIRE. What do we make of this guy being like the fourth time that this has happened where it's, you know what, we're going to take this edge rusher from college and then we're going to move him to defensive tackle. No, we're not. Is that going to happen with James Lynch too eventually where it's the same kind of story? Yeah, I don't know what to make of that because there have been past times where a guy gets first team or second team reps and it looks like, oh, he's going to

make it. He's the backup. And then as camp goes on, he kind of falls out because it's clear that he can't do it. And it'll be really interesting to watch Jalen Holmes on a day-to-day basis, how he performs, if he stays with the first team, if Daniil Hunter's out for any longer, or just with the second team, if he's actually got a shot at this. Because I think he's playing for a career here in this camp over these next couple of weeks at defensive end. Eddie Yarbrough got some first team reps.

I think they want to see how he looks and he's been good so far. Anthony Zettel is playing on the second team and the third team kind of mixing in and out. We have not seen much of the rookies, DJ Wanham, Kenny Willikies, and they're going to have to go a long way in a very short period of time to actually play legitimate roles on this team this year, I think. Yeah. Kenny Willikies is my Mr. Mankato pick, and I'm already not feeling so great about it. Like, air time.

I need to stop freaking out about that. I just really want to win Mr. Mankato this year. I mean, Cameron Dantzler is already kind of running away with that three days into camp. But it's like how many guys do they want to keep around in the D line? Because, you know, typically they go 10 offensive linemen nine on the d line some years I believe they've kind of flip-flopped that number 10 and 9 I don't know if you could go heavy on both and do 10 and 10 um you might not have to um I think that they're probably pleasantly surprised with how Jaleel Johnson is playing right now that that at least gives you the option of parting ways with a younger player.

You know, Jaleel's in a contract year too. Like he's, this is his fourth season. He was a fourth round pick in 2017. So he's got a lot to prove this year. Do you want to end up keeping somebody who, you know, younger can potentially rise to that level? Sure. But like, you're just not in a position right now to play the long game,

even though you are built for the future. I think being able to shore up that three-technique position, which has always kind of been in Mike Zimmer's mind, that's really, really important. So that's why I think that they'll, you know, some of those younger guys, like, you know, James Lynch to me, we haven't really seen too much yet. I mean, it's still really early early but he's somebody that like I think it's probably what Jaleel, Hercules, James Lynch

maybe the third and the fourth team um but beyond that like they just you know the the deeper you go it's going to be harder to keep those guys around and and with the really deep practice squad the fact that you can protect certain guys would allow you to cut the fourth-round pick if you wanted to and keep him on the practice squad if there were other people there. It really hit me today, though, Courtney, with Daniil Hunter sitting out. You are one Daniil Hunter injury. Look, Mike Zimmer's going to say it's a tweak even if his arm has fallen off. It's just how Zimmer has handled injuries for about the last three years in

training camp. So we don't really know. But if Hunter gets hurt at any point in the season or can't play for COVID-related reasons, let's hope not. But you're looking at a defensive line, potentially, of Eddie Yarbrough or Jalen Holmes, Shamar Steffen, Jaleel Johnson, and Afadi Odenabo, and I could tell you how many sacks you're getting in those games. It's about zero. I mean, I think that Odenabo has a chance here and could be potentially a starter, but the only way that he steps up and gets eight sacks

or seven sacks we had last year again in this role is if there's a lot of attention paid to Daniil Hunter, the elite player. And you are going from having a defensive line not too long ago with Sheldon Richardson, Linval Joseph, Everson Griffin, and Daniil Hunter to now you are one injury away from yikes. Yeah. No, it's terrifying when you think about it, right? Like, Daniil being out today, it's just kind of,

you see, all right, this defensive line looks completely different than it did when you had the heavyweights up there. I mean, Everson Griffin's not coming back. Linville Joseph's not coming back. And if Daniil Hunter is gone for a game, then the dynamic changes completely. Uh, you go from being, you know, a defensive line with a superstar to a defensive line with Jalen Holmes at, uh, right defensive end, at left defensive end. So, you know, a defensive line with a superstar to a defensive line with Jalen Holmes at right defensive end, at left defensive end. So, you know, I think Ofadio Denebo has a high ceiling, and they are looking forward to seeing what he can do this year, but he's still a raw product. That pass rushing prowess is going to have to get better over time. And I think he's getting there, but you can't expect Everson Griffin when you look at him. You have to realize that it's a

completely different player. And, to realize that it's a completely different player. And, you know, he's only now in his fourth year, he's just kind of coming into his own and learning how he wants to play that position effectively or how he can. So, you know, I think that that's probably when you look at the situation, you really, that's one you cannot afford injuries on or any sort of COVID-related stuff. Right, because Daniel Hunter can do enough damage by himself to make it reasonable and help everybody else get there, especially if Armond Watts is mixing in on third downs or obvious passing downs. Then you're saying, okay, well, you can get enough pressure to make a difference,

and then you've got to cover on the back end. But if Hunter's not around, you've got some serious problems. Speaking of serious problems, the guard rotation at left guard. I waited until last to talk about this because, you know, we've just had to talk about left guard so much over the last three years, and it's left guard. But Aviant Collins is mixing in with Dakota Dozier, and Ezra Cleveland right now is the second team left guard. How do you think this ends up playing out?

I mean, Dozier has more experience. Collins, I think, started one game last year. They've been splitting reps pretty much equally at that spot. I would venture to guess, though, that it's not a complete done deal there, that Ezra Cleveland, I mean, they did draft him with a second-round pick. Is he ready to play left guard yet? Which, by the way, since the last time you and I podcasted, and I'm sure you've talked about this on previous episodes, Ezra Cleveland is not playing right guard, as we thought.

I mean, you're the one who brought that up. I don't know why it took me so long to kind of realize, oh, they might actually move Alpheline over to right guard. I thought they were just kind of done with the experiment. But nonetheless, something in me tells me it's still too early to rule out that Ezra Cleveland could potentially compete for that spot but when Mike Zimmer does say that he wants to by the third day of pads and you know figure out kind of like the combination on the offensive line that's a

little um that's a little telling if they really are going to stick with that so right now my money would probably be on Dakota Dozier just because he has more experience um than someone like Avion. And Avion's been a swing tackle for them for a couple years now. He can play multiple spots. So he at least would have that depth, even if he's not a starter. Can I both respect, with the utmost of respect, a guard who can keep himself in the league and be a smart guy when you talk to him, Dakota Dozier, and be impressed that you stay in the league when you're not a high draft pick or anything like that and you earn jobs and you can come into multiple positions. So just appreciate the value of having someone like that as a backup. But if he's a starter for a whole season, I think we're talking Tom Compton territory.

It feels the same way as like when we talked about Compton, where when they signed him, it was, all right, well, Nick Easton is the starter, and he's pretty good, but if he gets hurt, you don't want Compton playing 16 games. I feel that same exact way about Dakota Dozier. I would rather see them go with Aviant Collins or Ezra Cleveland as the starter and have it blow up in their face because either guy couldn't play that position than going with someone who you know what they're going to bring you and it's not going to be above average play.

Yeah, and in a Tom Compton experiment from a few years ago, I mean, that was part of the reason. They took a step back in terms of pass protection, and that's why Kirk Cousins struggled so much in that 2018 year, because he was constantly getting just like the pocket was getting pushed right into him. Especially from that left, that left guard spot. That was tough from like Elf line on. I mean, he was coming off the injury and then Compton was miserable and, you know, Riley Reif was having an up and down year.

It's just a situation you can't necessarily afford to mess with so I would be worried about that one too uh any chance that it actually works with Pat Elfline at right guard and he's decent yeah I'll give it I'll give it a chance because he played right guard I think it was 25 starts at Ohio State like that's where it was his natural position uh before Ohio State moved him to center in 2016 his senior year and that's you know it worked for him then but I think honestly when you talk to him today just about you know how much goes into that center position um and and you know coming off that injury he was never the same player uh so right guard might in a way take a little bit of a burden off of him when you're not having to note literally every single minute detail of the playbook.

He made that point. I thought that was a very astute point for somebody who's been a center and called plays. Maybe at right guard he can just focus on hand placement and footwork. And obviously keeping really strong interior defensive linemen away from his quarterback. But given it was the position he played the most in college, I think that it might be a better fit. We do reach a point in my mind where I can't reach back to 2017 with him anymore.

I know it's hard because it's a completely different player from, from that point to now. Right. Three position changes in three years. That's a hard one for me. He is a very good run blocker. It's just that that doesn't mean that much. And he also talked about how much he loves the screen game. And the Vikings were first in expected points added in the screen game last year. And that's where, as far as I know, Akeem Hicks is going to play this year. Kenny Clark's going to play this year. And I just have a really tough time with this. It's the same sort of story of if you face a vicious, monstrous defensive tackle,

Elfline can't even play at an acceptable level in pass protection against those guys. And the fact that Bradbury can't either you can't make up for one guy being poor I think you can survive one guy struggling give him a little help somehow but if it's two guys and if Dozier's in there and it's three guys then you're talking about a lot of the same from what you saw last year um now has there been anything else that's kind of popped out to you? I think one thing is, Irv Smith looks really darn good. I mean, really, really good. They did a drill in the red zone the other day where he outran, what was it, maybe Kendricks or Eric Wilson, I think,

yeah, outran him, reached up for a touchdown at the back of the end zone. Like, this is what you expect for the camp of a second year of someone who becomes a star. Yeah, I mean, it's been boiling to this point for a while, right? Like, we expected this from him. And how much more he's going to get involved in this passing game. We saw a glimpse of it, like, truly a glimpse of it when Thielen was hurt last year.

And when you don't have a proven receiver at that number two spot, and B.T. Johnson or, you know, Justin Jefferson could eventually become that, but when you can't run a lot of 11 personnel, just because you don't have that depth from two to three, it's just not consistent depth. You're going to still, these are young receivers, that I think you're going to see a spike in a lot of 12 personnel in all of these, you know, heavier tight end sets

where it could be Kyle Rudolph, but it's probably going to be in more situations, it's probably going to be Irv Smith. And I think that, you know, Guy's an athletic freak. I'm really looking forward to seeing, that's the one thing I would have loved to have seen with the preseason. I don't know how much he would have played, to be quite honest, but just be able to see him, him like go up against, you know,

run some of those routes over the middle of the field. What does that do for Kirk Cousins? But I mean, that's going to be a huge part of his Cousins game this year, being able to have that security blanket over the middle of the field. That's the option that they've been missing for him. So I'm really looking forward to that. And I think Irv is going to be a huge target for Kirk this year. Probably, you know,

just when you look at like the history of Kubiak's tight ends like the tight end usually your leading receiver the tight ends your number three receiver so yeah all right before we wrap up I want you to give your blazingest hottest most irrational possible first day in pads take? Super Bowl? No, I can't do that. I'm not irrational. I can't do that. I would say winning the division. Winning the division. Is that fair?

Okay, they look that good? Yeah, it's not like a blazing hot take because it's very likely, you know, very possible to happen um but i would say the blazing hot take is the past defense is fixed no longer a problem cornerbacks look great there you go winning the division coverage is going to be elite no problem all set sorry nick foals you're going to struggle this time against the vikings all right courtney well we will be connecting all throughout camp and really just the foreseeable future.

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