Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Watching back the best games of JJ McCarthy and Drake Maye

Episode Date: April 3, 2024

Matthew Coller and Chris Trapasso of CBS Sports talk about watching back the best games of the year from JJ McCarthy and Drake Maye and then discuss their best and worst QB opinions of the past https://surfshark.deals/PURPLEINSIDER Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here along with CBS Sports Draft Analyst Chris Trabasso. And we have a very special show for you today in which we each watched one full game of J.J. McCarthy for you and Drake May for me with fresh eyes on these prospects to make new observations about these quarterbacks that we have talked about so much. So we're going to take you through some of the highlights and things we observed in these games. So we can just dive right in here, Chris, tell me about which game you selected of JJ McCarthy and why you kind of picked that game to see the best side of him as a prospect. I went with the layup. I picked the Michigan game against UNLV. And in that game, J.J. McCarthy, 22 of 25 for 278, two touchdowns, no interceptions. So only three incompletions the whole game. And I get it that UNLV is not, like, you know, facing even Washington in the national title. But, or obviously Alabama in the Rose Bowl.

But I wanted to go with the game that just, I remembered early. I think it was their first or second game of the season that was just littered with like awesome throws from JJ McCarthy. And it's good to kind of do this to get closer to the draft. So I kind of do get a refresher when I'm going to be writing and talking about these prospects, even the quarterbacks for a long time over the next month and into May. I went in and immediately like in the first quarter, the two biggest takeaways, and then it was kind of littered throughout the game.

I was reminded of the blend of anticipation and arm talent that J.J. McCarthy has that I think the naysayers will kind of point out, oh, well, he doesn't really have that great of an arm. And we talked about it in last episode, doesn't really really stand out. Now it doesn't stand out among this class because you even have like Joe Milton in this class. Caleb Williams has a pretty big arm. Drake May has a big arm, Michael Penix. But I think because we had been talking about that for so long, I was thinking, yeah, his arm really wasn't that great. But of course I had him as a first round

grade. Going back right away, there are some throws. There is a deep comeback from the far hash off play action, a throw that if JJ McCarthy is drafted by the Vikings, he will make to Justin Jefferson next season, where the throw is before Roman Wilson makes his break. But it is a long, long throw from like the 50 yard line down to the 25. And that is a throw, shows the ball play action, has to step up in the pocket, and then he fires a rocket to Roman Wilson, perfect ball placement.

There's a few other throws that I can get to later, but just throughout the game. And there was four or five that I was like, man, he really trusts his arm talent, and he has a pretty big arm and can also throw with anticipation. So you get that combination together, you're going to connect on some of those tight window throws. So as we've been talking about McCarthy, I think a lot of times what we've gone back to is maybe not the same ceiling as some of these other quarterbacks.

And as you watched it, as you mentioned, it was against UNLV. So it wasn't against Alabama. And the last thing that is in my mind is watching his final three games, which I thought had small flashes, but not a consistency throughout them of great plays. And I guess that's, what's kind of kept me from talking about him as a potential superstar is like, does he have this one thing that's his next level superpower that he is going to beat you with when things go wrong, right? Which we'll get into when I watch Drake May. There's a lot of that with Drake May.

And I think there's less of it with McCarthy, but should we be giving him more credit because of the velo he could put on the ball for NFL type of throws that that is kind of his superpower is the fact that if you need a deep out, which is a really difficult throw to make on time in the NFL, that he is going to be able to put the velocity behind it to be able to do that. Yeah, I think so. And I've heard Greg Cosell, who I talked to a bunch of the combine I was super grateful to kind of be able to sit down and just talk to him in the media room there and I respect a lot make a point that I think is a good one that yes JJ McCarthy has a strong arm but it's

really only like when he has a clean pocket and I think I mean I I slightly disagree with that because I do think he can he can generate the velocity off structure too. But for me, and we've talked about this, yes, a quarterback is going to be pressured around 30% of the time and behind a bad offensive line, maybe 40%. But if we're looking at it just through a Vikings lens, it'll probably be on the lower side of that range. So 70% of the time, he's going to be protected well if we're kind of envisioning this scenario of jj mccarthy in minnesota and so that's the the scenario that i want to see that high level of velocity and i certainly saw that i was refreshed reminded of that in this game there's

also a throw that he made um very classic madden smash. The outside wide receiver runs a very quick comeback route. The slot receiver runs a corner. So they're really trying to bait that outside cornerback to either take that short comeback on the perimeter or sink with the deep corner. You kind of pick and choose. Right away, McCarthy notices that the outside corner is staying flat, like in the flat with the comeback. But the corner actually, this, I don't know who this UNLV corner was, does a great job sinking. And he like almost knows that that concept is coming and the accuracy, the assertiveness,

and just the velocity, like you're mentioning that McCarthy showed on that throw. And that's, again, the combination of those things. It ended up being between like three cornerbacks and that underneath corner almost gets there. Had the throw been, I don't know, five miles per hour slower and might've gotten tipped, picked off. And he kind of just, it was right in rhythm made the throw and really didn't think anything of it. So if you're looking for the Caleb Williams type stuff from JJ McCarthy even though we've kind of talked yet you know he can improvise you're not going to see him drifting

toward the sideline and flicking it 50 yards downfield but clean pocket you know smash corner with Jordan Addison and Justin Jefferson you're going to get those I think franchise caliber traits from JJ McCarthy when everything around him is kind of kept clean. Yeah. So in a game like this, where he's almost flawless and what did you say? 22 for 25 is really spectacular. I mean, in a game like this, what did you feel like was working for him that in his worst games didn't. And we're going to look at some of those as we go along in this pre-draft process is taking a back, a look at some of the ones where it didn't go perfectly for JJ McCarthy and Drake may, which I think we're going to see a lot of messy stuff there. But that's my thing with McCarthy is I think that the consistency of those fastballs

ending up in the strike zone, if you will, with the metaphor is not what I would like it to be right now and trying to figure out. So how do you get more UNLV games and fewer Maryland games out of him where it seems like he just doesn't have that? I don't know if it's technical or if it's something footwork wise or whatever it is, but even in the games in the college football playoff, if he played like that with a lesser team and was as inconsistent with throwing the ball in some of those situations, they probably don't end up winning. And so that's kind of my concern is like how much of this can be worked out. And even I was looking at one of the throws that, that I was, I was sneaking and looking at your homework on a

JJ McCarthy, where he throws with unbelievable anticipation of velocity right through the trees, like, like an arrow. But I also thought that ball is so low. Like would it get knocked down in the NFL? Like does, does the linebacker close on that in the NFL? A lot of his best throws are kind of these low trajectory rockets through people that I wonder, like, are you going to be able to get away with that at the NFL level? Yeah, that's a good point. I think, and there's probably stats that could, that I could look up and maybe next episode could kind of bring forth that would maybe either prove this or disprove this, but in watching the entirety of his season, it felt kind of like when he would get into a rhythmic start early in the game,

his confidence would build and you would start to see more assertiveness. And that doesn't just mean get it out to the first read. It would be, all right, first read's not there. And there is a play that I watched where he looks left and then comes back to the middle has pressure and then kind of does like a Patrick Mahomes like throws it off one leg like a short stop and throws it over the middle gets his head back to a tight end that's waiting but doesn't lead him into one defender but doesn't throw behind him so he gets hit by the other defender it's a perfect throw technically off

structure even though he's inside the pocket and it felt like later in the season against Alabama, even at times against Washington in the national title, that he didn't get off to such a great start. And against UNLV, he did. And I think that allows him to just, it kind of sounds cheesy, but to play faster, just to process quicker and say, all right, here's where I'm going to go. I know that I need to go here when he doesn't get off to that great start, and like if you remember in the Rose Bowl, there was like an interception early on that they like had to review forever at the start of the second half. Like things like that I think hurt his confidence,

and he kind of second guesses those reads. Or, hey, do I pull the trigger here on this first read? Could this guy really be that wide open, or is there like a defender lurking that I'm not seeing it kind of feels like that's what happens but in this game against unlv you certainly yes want to get more of the unlv games if you draft him he just came right out and was assertive throughout the game and there weren't those misses because i really think he was locked in because he felt good early on. I was thinking about this with McCarthy in sort of a, you know, how he played talk me into sometimes, but if you're talking me into McCarthy,

one of the things you could say is that he was probably asked to game manage that that was the goal of the coaching staff. Now, of course you could say chicken and egg there. Like, why were they asking him to game manage if he's this great prospect, but probably because they were winning games in this way. If you're making that argument, I still am not fully buying into that argument, but if you're asking someone to play in a very safe style as maybe Jim Harbaugh and Michigan was because they knew they were dominating on defense and in the running game, then I think you're less apt to do things like you're describing. You're less apt to kind of drop down and throw a sidearm ball. I mean, I have seen him do some

extremely high level athletic things. It's not as natural as it is for Caleb Williams to just go run it or Drake may as uh works out sometimes great and sometimes terrible for drake may uh it's not as natural for him to just be like i'm balling out it's mccarthy time uh it seems more stiff for him more rigid yeah and that may have been by design and i i don't know like at the nfl, if you can be stiff and rigid, that makes me think of Alex Smith at a lot of times where he's got all the tools to make it happen. But there was a like, oh, I guess this is where I'm supposed to run rather than, hey, just run and make a play. You're that good of an athlete.

And so trying to figure out, is that just how he was supposed to be playing or is that how he actually plays? I think is one of the biggest challenges with McCarthy in general yeah absolutely and if you want to play devil's advocate here or if I want to play devil's advocate here in his final season at Oregon Justin Herbert managed the game and I remember going on a bunch of radio spots and it was why did this six foot five 240 pound quarterback with a rocket why are they handing the ball out 45 times? So for as much as I do think your concern with that is legitimate and we can't just say, Oh, Hey, like they were winning. There is a recent example of someone with pretty good, with really good traits that

the team just, they had a offensive line minded head coach and they're like, we're going to run the ball. And Jim Harbaugh is probably the most run happiest offensive minded coach in the league or obviously last year in the country. So it's kind of a difference. It's like kind of a different scenario with JJ McCarthy than most where it would, of course, if you have a potential top 10 pick at quarterback, every other team would be throwing the ball all over the yard.

And you know, that certainly was the case in North Carolina, USC, Washington. But yes, it is a little bit more rigid. And I do see some Alex Smith comparisons athletically. But from this game, to kind of go back full circle here, I was like I was remembered and it was highlighting in this game that how aggressive he is. There is a throw on an RPO slant that he's probably going to make next year with the Vikings where he throws the ball like through the ear hole of the linebacker who has his back turn. And like the still that we're going to show, if you're watching on YouTube, it literally looks like he's throwing it directly to the linebacker, but it's actually like a yard

past him. Like he doesn't care. There's a throw against Ohio State where I'm not quite sure if he just didn't see the other the underneath defender or he just was like I'm gonna make this throw where there's an underneath linebacker that comes screaming underneath this seam route for a touchdown against Ohio State big game you know NFL competition and it is like yep I'm gonna make this throw pinpoint accuracy velocity anticipation it's all there i was reminded of that because i thought that was very highlighted in this game against ulv so that's the hard thing about mccarthy is that in his numbers he has a higher turnover worthy play rate than you would actually really like uh for somebody like him for when we're talking about hey was he asked to just try to game manage but he would fire it into more tight windows than i would have expected for a game manager plays that right there are plays that should have been intercepted

and what i keep coming back to trying to figure out because yes this play i looked at what you're talking about and it's like was this the right thing to do or not? Yeah, that's what I thought too. There are, right. There are a lot of these where he gets it through the tight window, but, and I'm not making this comparison, but I had this thought when I was watching Justin Fields years ago, where he would make an unbelievable tight window throw. And of course it's one where you share on Twitter and everybody freaks out. She're like, was he supposed to throw it there? Or did it just end up kind of like ending up in the guy's hands because it's squeaked

through? And there are those in every quarterback where you just have to throw it. And maybe a guy like Eli Manning style catches it on the side of his helmet and you got to get lucky sometimes. But if that's something that he is not identifying fast enough and just trying to whip it toward his first read or something that's concerning because those balls can get intercepted in the NFL where in college, they're not going to close those windows. Before we get to Drake May, any other observations, thoughts from watching back JJ McCarthy's best game last year?

Well, it's a perfect segue from what you just said, because in evaluating quarterbacks and having, again, I hate to have any bias, but I definitely have one because of Josh Allen. I always talk about, you know, being aggressive and big time throw, big time throw rate. What you were mentioning about, you were not surprised, but I guess you were, or yeah, I guess you were surprised in that you went in thinking he's a game manager. You see that he's not throwing 50 times a game and you see a lot of those aggressive throws.

That's like my overall takeaway. And again, this was probably his best. This was his best game of the season. And we were looking for those positives that I was like, man, this guy's a game manager and he only threw it 25 times. They blew him out. But there were a lot of throws where I was like, man, that was an incredible throw. And that was aggressive. He probably didn't even need to make that throw. He had Blake Corum in the flat. I like for a game manager, so to speak, that you don't have to

ask him to be aggressive in the NFL. That being in Buffalo, I watched Trent Edwards and terrible quarterbacks. You watched them too, that never were quite aggressive enough. EJ Manuel is another one that technically had the traits, but was just always so timid. So for JJ McCarthy, if he's coming in saying, Hey, I see Justin Jefferson deep on that post corner. I'm going to try to make that throw. Maybe Kevin O'Connell says, actually, there's a safety over there. We have designed this play for Jordan Addison to come open on the dig route underneath. Look to that second read. I'd rather it be that than check down, check down into the flat. I didn't get that in this game where certainly JJ McCarthy could have said, yeah, I'll just check it down all game. We'll run for 250 yards and win. I was reminded that even though he has that game manager label, I liked that he's on the aggressive side of that label. Hey, U S cellular customers. I've got good news. So don't hit that skip forward

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In hockey. They used to say that it was easier to tell someone, whoa, then go. So like, whoa, dial it back a little bit rather than go and don't check the ball down.

I mean, that was, and that's where the comparison probably fails with Alex Smith, or at least from the college tape, knowing what he's going to be like in the NFL is a different monster. But from the college performance from McCarthy, Alex Smith was always so famous for throwing it underneath the sticks,

so much so that football outsiders named a stat after famous for throwing it underneath the sticks so much. So that football outsiders named a stat after it, throwing short of the sticks. And look, we know all about this fourth and eight check down, right? Rather than letting it rip to Justin Jefferson or Adam Thielen, it's a check down to TJ Hawkinson that haunts the Minnesota Vikings, uh, in that 2022 playoff game. And I don't think McCarthy, at least from the way he's played so far, that that's really the issue with him, that he's afraid to be aggressive. I just think it's a question of, is his aggressiveness too much at times? Is it just firing it to a spot and praying that it gets there? And then when it does, it's amazing. But when it doesn't, it's a turnover worthy play. And then, you know, doing it consistently, hitting slants and stuff

like that on a mark consistently, comeback routes consistently has been something that he just hasn't really done. But I think that that right there is you can hone that more than trying to say, no, no, no, you have to throw throw the ball and i think that that's what it probably drove kevin o'connell he'll never say this but it probably drove kevin o'connell a little crazy with kirk cousins getting him to actually make all those throws that he wanted him to make that were aggressive yeah one final thing that i'll say about jg mccarthy is that everything that you just pointed out there at the end that there are some times where like uh oh okay good throw i want to see him kind of in an offense that's not so run heavy but i feel like he could be and i don't want to directly compare him to justin herbert but i love justin herbert coming out and i remember having to go back like the previous season which i usually

don't do and i was like oh there's justin herbert in an offense that's not like 95 bill walsh college football and i feel the same that jj mccarthy could go from game manager to like i don't want to say unleash but that's probably the best word to describe him where it's like oh yeah he can throw it 40 times a game like he can spread the ball around and it can be shotgun five wide receiver set or whatever, where we just didn't get to see that. And I don't, I mean, of course you could probably dig in. If you, if you could talk to people in the Michigan program and say,

was this really because you didn't trust him? And there were some thoughts about that in the national title game, but he did make those big throws late in the game, the throw over the middle to the tight end where they needed it late on a third down um so i just feel like in watching him i won't be surprised especially if he lands in minnesota if like we almost see like a different jj mccarthy because he just was in such a elementary offense that it just didn't give him the chance to have more opportunities to make those bigger throws on the field all right on to drake may we go and i watched drake may versus duke because why not i

mean that's a good game that was one of my favorite college football games all year long with him versus duke uh because it just went back and forth it was crazy went to overtime final score is something like 46 to 39 something nuts is the final score i forget what it was but It was crazy. What's overtime final score is something like 46 to 39. So something nuts is the final score. I forget what it was, but it was crazy. Uh, and this game starts out with Drake may immediately dropping an absolute sexy dime down the sideline. There is no other way to put it. It was, it was flawless. And he does this probably five times in the game. Not every one of them was caught where he just takes a step back and just lets it go down the sideline and just guides it over the cornerback to Tez Walker sometimes hits them. Sometimes it's broken up,

but on time, exactly where it's supposed to be. None of these were like wild or all over the place. And the thing about Drake May that stands out to me is how little it takes for him as far as effort wise to cruise the ball 40 yards down the field to a guy running down the sideline. Like this is this is the reason right here. This is the reason we're talking about this is first drive right away steps back one step lets it go and it just looks it looks like he's throwing a little check down and the ball goes 30 yards down the field i mean it's really remarkable how easy the ball comes off his hand yeah and that is definitely one thing that uh with arm talent arm strength it's like this seems like overly simplified, but I like to

just watch the quarterback's body language and like how much torque, how much effort it seems to look like when they're throwing the football 30, 40, 50 yards down the field. And you're right that Drake may, and this is going back to his pro day, listening to the commentators on a NFL network. I think it was actually Bucky Brooks who went to North Carolina. He mentioned that he's like, he more than any of the other quarterbacks in this class checks, the traditional boxes size and just pure natural arm talent. And that is, I know exactly what story you're talking about. It was literally a bucket throw directly into the bucket.

And it looked like it was like, he was just a bucket throw directly into the bucket. And it looked like it was like, he was just kind of like throwing the ball just over the offensive line. And you see that with, I think other quarterbacks we've, we've mentioned Jalen Hurts and the comparison to Bo Nix when he lets it go, it's like the shoulders really into it, the legs, the hips need to rotate. And with Drake May, I mean, he could certainly do that when he really wants to crank up the velocity or throw it 55 or 60 yards, but the 30 to 40 yard bucket throw, either over the middle or down the sideline, he made about 50 of those in college that are pinpoint and little to no effort. You want that out of your quarterback today. So sticking with early in the game for my notes here, There are at least three checkdowns that are completely

inaccurate that are like, you can't believe that a throw that easy would be missed by someone this good. And, and they caught them, but behind the guy up here, just all over the place. And you're like, Drake, my guy, just like just short arm it. It's kind of like a three point shooter who can't hit a layup or something. Drake, you don't have to be shooting an off balance fade away. So there's that. They also had no screen game whatsoever. Every time they threw a screen in this game, it got blown up in the backfield. So we talk about Bo Nix and how much of his yardage is racked up on those screens.

I'm going gonna guess that Drake may it was like nothing against any team it was just nothing so he was constantly in like third and 14 because he threw a screen that went back four yards or something in the second quarter though there were there were a couple plays where I really amazed. One of them is he drops back and he gets pressure from his right side. So it's in his face pressure. He turns to his left, escapes that guy and flips the hips and throws it 25 yards on a line to, I think, I think everything went to Tess Walker in this game, but to a receiver 25 yards down the field and there is a there is a fluidity to this guy that i think is very rare for someone at his size and that's why i think he's even more fluid than someone like matt

stafford or eli manning who because of their size can be a little bit a little bit rigid at times uh with with their play but i mean it just just like Gumby type of bendy flips and throws this ball. And I'm like, what the, like, how did, how did you get this out? And the amount of times where he is in the grasp or he's being tackled and he's getting a throw out, there's a play that gets called back at the end zone. I think they had 12 men on the field. This was like, this was just a clown show at times at North Carolina that I'm like, Oh, what a play. That's a touchdown. Oh, there was 12 men on the field or whatever. Like what were they doing? Uh, but he's in the grasp and he finds a way at the end of the game. He's

going to try to win the game. He starts to run. They start pulling him down. He finds a guy, throws a touchdown. This must've happened eight to 10 times in the game where there's someone who's right on top of him or he's in the grasp and still finds a way to get the football to somebody. You just don't see that all that often. Yeah. And with Drake May, I think, which again, we'll see if it happens, but all of the talk pre-combine and then at the combine, oh, Drake May is going to be the one who falls. he's going to be the will levis of this class vikings could get him at 11 we'll see if that happens um what i found so strange about that is and kind of my theory on it is you watch drake may and if you just do like a brief overview of him like you i don't know you watch a i don't i guess like a highlight package

or you just watch one game and it's not the du game. You're like, wow, he's a really good pocket passer. And you think he's bigger. He's a white guy. He's probably not that athletic. And he's athletic, like really athletic. And I was talking about earlier with JJ McCarthy, that if you're going to be a game manager, I still want you to have the ability to, or the want to, to throw those tight window passes. With Drake May, he's certainly not a game manager, but I kind of want you to have that ability and that desire to make a throw with a defender on your hip or as you're taking a hit. Josh Allen has that. We saw it with Levis when he flashed last season.

He's doing somersaults over guys. Drake May kind of has that and I I'm literally going to hate myself for saying this he has that like it factor of like I will just do whatever it takes to again raise this clown show to a respectable level on this play where oh the left tackle didn't block anyone and the running back right there didn't actually pass protect so now that I have two defenders in my face I'm gonna going to like step up into the pocket, do like a jump throw 30 yards downfield while I'm taking a shot. I want those not just like crumble under the face of pressure type, uh, demeanor from your quarterback. And Drake may certainly has that. This also resulted in a lot of stupidity from Drake May in this game.

And this is his best game. So I imagine his worst games, there's more stupidity and I've seen some of them, you know, toward the end of the season. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Some serious problems with this. Uh, they are backed up to their own one yard line and Drake May drops back, tries to hit like a deep over or something like that. And just overthrows the guy by 10 yards right into the safety's hands as if he was targeting the Duke safety and the broadcaster for the game is just absolutely incredulous about this like what are you doing it was it looked like it was clear that it was supposed to be kind of the back side of the play where it was a simple little in route that he should have hit for maybe eight yards and instead he's just going for broke throwing the ball 25 yards down the field over

somebody's head for an interception you're like uh drake i wish you had a longer name so i could call you by your full name like when my wife is mad at me and says matthew what are you doing or christopher what are you doing like drakeus what are you doing? Like Dracius, what are we doing here? And there are several Dracius moments that that's what I'm going to call. I will call him this. If he's a Viking is like what he does crazy stuff because there's another one. So that's the worst moment of the game for him by far. This horrendous interception in his own zone, where if there's nothing there, or if you

don't see it, you just can't throw that ball. There's another one where he tries to do a Josh Allen hurdle of a guy, but it doesn't exactly work. And he just gets hit in the groin and just goes down and you just drink. Yes. What are we doing here? Why are we, why are we hurtling another human being? He's got the first down.

He could just step out of bounds. And he says, no, I'm actually going to jump over a linebacker who then, of course, reaches up and hits him in the middle of his legs. And then he goes tumbling down. Luckily, he's OK. I don't think many of us would have been. But if you do that too many times, you're going to get yourself hurt. So there is so much in this game back and forth

between, Oh my gosh, I can't believe he pulled that off with true NFL stuff, dodging tacklers, throwing on the move. And then there's also this sort of cover your eyes kids. It's very ugly here with Drake may now in this game in particular, way more great than bad. Those couple of things really stood out to me but there were too many times where even so he runs a rollout like a little like rpo roll out to the right kind of fakes a hand off everybody rolls he's got a five yard pass right in front of him where the guy is going to catch the ball and go for 10 to 15 yards and he's like no i don't need that and throws it out of the back of the end zone trying to gun it to the end zone for a guy. And they end up with a field goal instead of getting a touchdown there.

And those are the things that you go, okay, are you going to do this in the NFL? Or is this just you being young and trying to do everything? Sort of a similar question to like Caleb Williams. Yeah. So everything I said about JJ McCarthy, that I want to see him in an offense that's not so run heavy when he's in the NFL that just kind of lets him let loose a little bit. I think everything that you mentioned and you use the term clown show for North Carolina last year kind of feels like, and this is my obligatory mention of Bill's quarterbacks of the past. Kind of how Ryan Fitzpatrick used to be with some of those bad bills teams where like, it would be 17, nothing at the end of the first quarter. And then Fitzpatrick would throw like two picks in the third quarter.

And you're like, Oh, he was just kind of trying to get back in the game somehow. And that last play that you referenced, I remember that play and it's blatant. Like you watch it. Anyone sees it. I don't know if the broadcasters say it, but it's like a dud dude, I remember that play and it's blatant. Like you watch it, anyone sees it. I don't know if the broadcasters say it, but it's like, duh, dude, like hit that guy in

the flat. That's probably where the play is designed. It almost felt like from this game and a lot of others, even the bad game against NC State and throughout the season, he was just like, I know what I have around me or what I don't have around me. And if I'm not throwing like ridiculous touchdowns to Tez Walker on every drive, we're going to lose like 61 to 21. So I want to see Drake may in an offense that is not so reliant on him being

Josh Allen or Caleb Williams on literally every drive. And they can still move the football score points. The defense isn't going to just be a total sieve like the North Carolina defense was. So if you want that for one quarterback in JJ McCarthy, you have to want it for the other. And they're on two polar ends of the spectrum, JJ McCarthy at Michigan and Drake May last season at North Carolina. And at the end of the game, just it's so it's so Drake may, uh, he has in overtime, a guy running a little in and out wide open. If they just ran this route,

every play in college that you'd never in complete a pass because the defenders just don't know what to do. So like breaking inside and then just slams on the brakes, goes outside. It's an easy touchdown. The game is over. Just flip it to him and he misses and like Drake. It's it's right there. You know how, I mean, that's like the biggest cliche is I could have made that throw. I could have made this throw. I mean, the guy is just so wide open. You just toss the ball and instead he just is inaccurate on it. And that's the thing he's really going to have to change. And I, I guess what, what I think about Drake may is, can you fix the simple stuff? The short passes, the check downs, the wide open, whatever that you're missing.

Can you rein in some of the insanity from this man and still get all of the high end? And sometimes you can, and sometimes you can't, I mean, with Jameis Winston, no one was reining that in not ever. And with Sam Darnold, Sam Darnold does the craziest stuff I've ever seen. And, you know, sometimes it's great. Sometimes it's terrible. But there are other quarterbacks. And you mentioned Josh Allen. Patrick Mahomes is one of them.

There are plenty of quarterbacks that were doing this same stuff. And it did remind me, this game did remind me. And like, warning, warning warning red lights not saying mahomes i when i was watching my homes at texas tech there were like every game was like this it was just oh my gosh how did he do that patrick what are you doing what it's like it's like a guy shooting fade away 35 yard or 35 foot threes over and over and over again. And, uh, sometimes they're great and sometimes it's not. So I think that there is a, um, there's an element of Drake may that does frighten me a tad. Cause I've seen this player blow up before, but I also see exactly what

makes him the high end potential draft pick. And I final thought all in all in, they want to trade up for him. I'm not going to worry about what any draft analyst says. Sorry. I know you like him, but I mean, anyone who says, any former quarterback who's making content now to keep the vibes going, it doesn't matter to me. If they're in, I'm in. I think the high end is incredible for this guy.

Yeah, that's exactly how I felt. And like I said, he is neck and neck with Caleb Williams. And Caleb Williams does that stuff too. My final thought beyond that, and we agree on just the final conclusion with Drake May. I'm glad that you mentioned Patrick Mahomes because I think now three Superbowls later, I don't want to say that people forgot the 2017 draft and that draft season, but like Patrick Mahomes was very much like the next year we got Josh Allen. He was a lot like that. And he was a lot like Drake May where Andy Reed had to literally in this,

in the modern age gave him an entire red shirt year. And there was, I think I probably referenced this on this podcast, but there's an awesome profile from Jenny Vrentis. I think it was when she was at Monday morning quarterback about like Andy Reed, Mr. Like West coast offense coach, Brett Favre in the 90s was like all right Pat like what Texas Tech concepts do you want to run what's this air raid thing that you want to do like he had to really at like the later stages of his coaching career like almost like drop a whole new playbook to do things for Patrick Mahomes that he was comfortable with

and be okay with, oh my God, that was the dumbest pick I've ever seen because of how it was outweighed by the insane plays. I'm not going to say like you were that it's not to the Patrick Mahomes level and the pure talent isn't quite there, but I got those same vibes from watching Drake May on like a Texas Tech level team last year at North Carolina. Folks, if you don't know what a VPN is, you might actually need one and not even realize it. If you already know the positives, you also might not be using the right product. In either case, you want to check out Surfshark. VPNs keep your information safe, and anyone who tries to track what you're doing online will not be able to do so if you are using Surfshark.

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Get Surfshark VPN at surf shark dot deals slash purple insider enter the promo code purple insider for three extra months for free you heard me right three extra months for free that is surf shark dot deals slash purple insider and there's there is that bendiness to him that is similar to mahomes in that way and both guys look like they played something else and mccarthy has this element to him as well like were you a basketball player were you a shortstop because you are doing things at angles that you usually see from those sports yeah um so there you there you have it a deep dive into the best of those two quarterbacks that should be targets for the Vikings. We'll also get into other quarterbacks as well in some

of their best games. And maybe we'll touch on worst if we have time as well, leading up to the draft. What I wanted to do is a little rapid fire here, Chris, to end the show. Last week, we ended on your bust comparisons in which you did get roasted into the sun on YouTube comments about using Christian Ponder. But what I want to do for this fun way to end the show, I want to go through some of our past successes and failures with recent quarterbacks and look ourselves in the mirror here, expose ourselves as both geniuses and total frauds when it comes to quarterbacks. So three, I told you three that you love that you got right. And three that you can't believe you got wrong to go through.

So why don't you start out with the three that you got dead ass wrong. Okay. You mentioned him last week and I was like, didn't say anything. Cause I knew that like we were going to maybe do this. Uh, Mason Rudolph from 2018. It was my first year at CBS sports. I was super pumped, poured over all the film I could get to. And I think you wanted me to also mention in our little pre show notes, like what I learned. Cause I think it's important to kind of talk about that as opposed to just saying, hey, I got this wrong. Mason Rudolph in 2018, the three years of production was there, the ability to get through his reads.

He kind of felt like, I don't want to say super old school quarterback, but like pre-Mahomes, pre-Josh Allen quarterback, because he was. And I thought, arm strength doesn't really matter. Look, there's Drew Brees. There's Tom Brady. There's all these, you know, Peyton Manning at the end of his career. He didn't have a strong arm. You don't need a strong arm in the NFL.

Mason Rudolph did not have that strong of an arm. Had a lot of talent around him. It was a spread offense. It was like basketball on turf. They called it there at Oklahoma State. And he was my quarterback one in that draft class. Like I'm fully exposing myself. I just thought he's going to pick apart defenses, sit in the pocket, but turns out it right coincided with Patrick Mahomes first year as a starter, where he threw 50 touchdowns, Josh Allen's rookie year.

Then the next year he takes a step and it really was like man you can never uh undersell how important athleticism is at the quarterback position because mason rudolph he was big the stats were there but just not a great athlete the traits weren't there and i think you mentioned it last week that's why he was a third round pick not because of what he showed in the stat book or what he was able to do with his mind but to be a first round pick, you usually, like we've mentioned, have to have those big time traits, whether you're a receiver, an edge rusher. And now I think in today's NFL, even if you're a quarterback. I don't think you were alone in some Mason Rudolph love. I remember seeing that going

into that draft and wondering if he could be a first round draft pick and you know look he's been in the nfl so if you can pick out a quarterback who's won some games in the nfl that's taken in the third round i guess that's okay but to have him as your qb1 yeah that's a that that was my rookie year that's my rookie year but it was bad yeah no that is but i i think yeah learning the lesson from that and always kind of wondering what's the upside going to be for a guy like that. And I think we've seen it, which is a backup quarterback for me. My first tremendously bad miss is Zach Wilson. I watched the hell out of Zach Wilson for that year at BYU. I think that was COVID year and we weren't really going outside of our house.

So I just watched Zach Wilson all the time. And I thought he was phenomenal. Even his worst game against coastal Carolina. I remember watching that game and thinking, you know what? His team was out, man, but he kept battling and he was trying to fire it down the field. The plays he made, the throws he made that year, the raw arm talent of Zach Wilson was, and probably still is completely absurd, but that's not always what wins you football games is just run around. And what I missed on, on that was a, I was just having a lot of fun watching it, but spoiler, I had been right about Patrick Mahomes. So I was like, I'm going to be right about Patrick Mahomes again

and be all about Zach Wilson. And the difference between the two is size for one. Mahomes is a much bigger dude. He's like 230. The other thing is too up in here between the ears. I mean, Patrick Mahomes is wildly intelligent, but also mature. He had been around pro sports his whole life. He is the most natural gifted leader that you will ever see. Like Joe Montana, John Elway, Patrick Mahomes, most easy leadership. He doesn't even try. It's

just, that's him. He just gets people to follow him. And I think the work ethic that he put in, you could have never predicted that Zach Wilson would not do that or that would be immature or anything. Maybe they knew that at BYU, but they certainly didn't know it for the Jets. So that was the Zach Wilson lesson is just because somebody's a lot of fun as a huge arm doesn't always mean they're going to be the next Mahomes. Yeah. So I definitely missed on him too and I was gonna for my next one bundle him and Justin Fields together they were my number two and number three overall prospects this is when I had my scouting grade book up and running position addition was a real thing it still is so I was like hey like there's some other good players in the 2021 class but like they're quarterbacks

they're athletic I understand that now I've learned from Mason Rudolph. I love Lamar Jackson, which I'll get to. But I was like, Hey, athleticism matters. Everything that you said about Zach Wilson, I also got like lulled to sleep with how fun he was on film, but I wanted to bundle those two together because of what I learned from them. And it's something that I feel like we haven't probably talked about enough with quarterbacks that I've learned beyond athleticism. There's lots of other things that you kind of pick up like throughout the years, like this matters, this doesn't. Zach Wilson and Justin Fields, they were not pressured enough in college. The BYU offensive line was outstanding. It was kind of like a Minnesota Vikings, like bootleg action. He was just throwing the ball all over the field,

making ridiculous throws. And I don't remember specifically what his pressure rate was, just how often he was pressured per drop back. But I remember it being very low. Justin Fields, same way at Ohio State where, wow, that was a great throw. He was the number two recruit in the nation behind only Trevor Lawrence, but he was thrown to a bunch of awesome receivers they just did not experience literally adversity in the pocket very often they get to the Jets and the Bears and suddenly it's oh my god I'm getting pressured 45 percent of the time like what the hell is this and it's happening in under two seconds or a second and a half I think to me I had the exact same experience as you with Zach Wilson, but now I realize I actually kind of want my quarterback to, even if it's, you know, a season where he's

not great against pressure, like Caleb Williams last year, I just want him to have experience pressure and how to deal with, Hey, this game, our offensive line is getting whooped and I'm going to need to make some plays, either getting the ball out quicker or being better off structure. Zach Wilson, Justin Fields didn't really have to do that in their final seasons at BYU and Ohio State. So the pressure thing is definitely real. And when you watch college football as an NFL person, it breaks my brain and just like throw the ball through. Why aren't you throwing the ball? Why are you sitting there for so long? Right. It that way and knowing how much uh to factor it can be actually quite difficult uh from the same draft

my two other biggest horrendous misses josh rosen and josh allen so josh rosen had this comeback game against i think it was maybe texas oh okay yeah yeah yes yes there was a Tennessee one they were they were down I think 41 to 10. and they came back and won the game won the game in the second half down 41 to 10. and he was tough he was accurate he he just showed everything that you would dream of from an NFL quarterback he could go off schedule more than you thought his his his, uh, there was this whole thing about how he's a tennis player and he had this smooth release. It just came out so easy. And I thought the guy was just brilliant. I don't like that man. This is my dude. And the team wasn't that great. And he just, he just in the pocket, he could step back, hit the back foot. The ball comes out. It was so nice. And I was like,

okay, this is my guy. This is what an NFL quarterback looks like. And when I watched Josh Allen, it was a mess. We called North Carolina clown show. This was so much worse. And I just went like, why am I supposed to like this quarterback? This, and I just was reminded of like the, I don't know, the Dan McGuire's like way back in the day, but the, the, um, the Paxton Lynch is like, there's just been a lot of these big arm Christian Hackenberg quarterbacks where if you bet against them, you're probably going to win. And what I did not know about Josh Allen, one was that his team had been better the year before and his numbers were fine the year before. And so

I didn't, I didn't realize that at the time that like that it was in there. Uh, but the other part was Josh Allen just has this drive to be great. And he has this ability to make plays that you could never expect from anyone at the highest level because he is six foot freaking six and 240 pounds. And it's kind of Dante Culpepper, like only if, you know, Culpepper was more accurate, but where it's so hard for defenders to take him down or stop him from doing what he's doing. And even if there were wild moments for three years that he still came out, you know, being great. But I also think too, that with Josh Allen allen i also look

at this as sometimes outliers just exist there are very few quarterbacks who need as long as him before you see like the real sign of it and the real statistical part of it come to fruition and he just he just had it like the drive and ability to improve those things that usually are fatal flaws for most quarterbacks. Yeah. And that is, uh, I think that's all spot on about both Josh's. And what I will say to start is everyone loved Josh Rosen. Like Josh Allen was a very polarizing prospect. Baker Mayfield became that Lamar Jackson, certainly in that 2018 class, everyone had like Josh Rosen, either at like quarterback two to quarterback four. Like he was just like the, the, the clean, like I always reference this

in my head for some reason, the Tyler Eifert of that draft where when Tyler Eifert got picked by the Bengals out of Notre Dame, it was like, he's safe. Like he's going to be good for a long time. He's maybe never an all pro, but just really good. So you weren't alone there. I had Josh Rosen as my quarterback three, but what I will reference about Josh Allen, because I was wrong on him too. I, it was again, it was before what I kind of call the Mahomes line where I kind of feel like the floodgates were opened in the NFL to like, Hey, Andy Reed type head coaches, like do some college stuff with these guys and let them throw across their body if they're going to make ridiculous plays

offside of structure. Like the off structure stuff kind of opened with Mahomes and Josh Allen was, you know, the next year. And we saw it in 2019 with him really take that step. What I learned from Josh Allen, and I still do this today, is I remember watching him and I kind of stupidly watched the Iowa and

the Oregon games. Like first I was like, I want to see this guy against some real competition. And those games are literally, I don't know if a first round quarterback has ever had bad. And then Nebraska too. He throws five interceptions in that game. I actually went back last year and rewatched that and was like, Oh, it wasn't quite as bad, but Oregon and Iowa are like horrific. And I was like, what, why is this like Deshaun Kaiser 2.0? Like, why are they hyping this guy up? And as like football outsiders, which I certainly respect the hell out of them, Aaron shots and all that crew. Um, they call them, you know, a parody of an NFL draft prospect. Then I went back where the talent level was kind of similar, like Wyoming was playing other teams in the Mountain West,

where he didn't feel like that Ryan Fitzpatrick urge or that Drake May urge to push the envelope on every play, literally on every play to try to score a touchdown, either with his legs or his arm. And I remember after the combine writing, I think it was a pro day write-up for him, that I was like, okay, like Josh Allen needs a lot of development. I still have him as my quarterback six in this class, but he's not like so horrible where he shouldn't even be drafted.

And like, we saw him against power five teams and he can't complete a pass when things were level, which will probably be closer to in the the NFL where there's not a huge disparity between team talent, like the worst team in the league to the best team, then you saw him throw a lot of fastballs. You're like, oh, I saw it. So Josh Allen, I learned when you are dealing with even, I don't want to just say small school like FCS, but a Wyoming or even Texas Tech for the Patrick Mahomes example, when they're facing an Alabama, don't totally just destroy a guy be like, Hey, couldn't do it against Alabama, especially playing the quarterback spot. Because a lot of times, like we're saying with Drake may, they have to push it and it's not really their true identity as a quarterback. Yeah. And, uh, that was also with Josh Allen. That was also, was also me probably taking statistics too seriously with prospects. And it's not that you have to throw it all out, but in some ways it's so muddy that you can't just be like, and this goes to now transition to the ones we got, right. It's so muddy that you can't just say, well, he completed only 50% of his passes. So he's not a prospect.

And that was kind of like the Chris Redmond thing where Redmond had had a 49% completion percentage in college. So then everyone drew this line of, Hey, if you're below the Redmond line, you can't be an NFL prospect. And I bought too much into this guy's statistics. Aren't that good? So he can't be a good NFL quarterback. And look, realistically with most positions and even with quarterbacks, sometimes if you bet on

stats, if you bet on a guy who sacks quarterbacks in college versus somebody who doesn't more times than not your sack artist in college is going to work out. But every once in a while, Daniil Hunter comes along and just blows that out of the water. I think that's the same for someone like Josh Allen. On the other side of that, I never believed that Lamar Jackson's completion percentage was a problem because he had such bad wide receivers. I thought Lamar Jackson was quarterback one or two, maybe at worst at that draft class. Loved him, would have signed on for anything. And all three of my successes are all based on the same thing.

It's Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, and Jalen Hurts. It's all the same reason. I just thought they were being over-criticized and too much focus on some of the downsides of their game and forgetting the special parts of their game. Jalen Hurts is a special runner. He's not just okay. He's special. And his mentality, his character to go from the backup thing at Alabama to thriving at Oklahoma winning. I thought that was really special from him. Lamar Jackson. I've never seen

anything like, I have never seen anyone move like that except for Michael Vick ever period outside. I mean, Randall Cunningham, but like recently to ever move like that at that level of speed and bendiness and matrix stuff. And the sit in my homes, I thought my homes, his offense was bad. I thought his teammates were bad. I thought his offensive line was atrocious. Everyone's giving Spencer Rattler all this credit for having a bad offensive line. Go watch Patrick Mahomes at Texas tech. It's immediate pressure every time. And the throws he made out of that, the games he kept them in when their defense was atrocious and the guy never ever stumbled. He never, I was kind of obsessed a little with him. So I watched a lot and he never threw his teammates under the bus,

threw his arms up, you know, yelling at his coaches or pouting on the sideline, like a certain number one overall draft pick did. I just, I was amazed by how well he handled that whole thing and the throws that he made. So those are all three and they're all three making the same bet, which went wrong with Zach Wilson, but it went right with those guys. Yeah. So I love Jackson too. He was my quarterback too in that draft class. And it's kind of weird. Like, I don't know what I was thinking. Cause I had Mason Rudolph as quarterback one and then Lamar at quarterback two. But again, I I've learned a lot. And because of that hit at quarterback two, it really reinforced like athleticism matters. And

what I always thought was funny there was all the you know bill polian he should be a running back whatever it was like he didn't and there was really silly criticism of jackson that he didn't run a pro style offense well bobby petrino was in the nfl before he was with lamar jackson and i saw like the pocket navigation skills uh throwing the ball with touch to all layers of the field. I remember writing for CBS Sports early on, like you knew what he was as a runner. But writing like I think in October, like we need to take Lamar Jackson seriously as an NFL draft prospect. It's probably still on the Internet somewhere.

I think I want to say the game was against Purdue, but it was a team wearing black in my head where there was like first read, second read, third read. And I'm like, whoa. And there was a great like pose, a deep pose for a touchdown where it was like, man, that was all NFL stuff. Oh, by the way, he's probably a four three guy and can fake out anyone in the NFL basically at like any linebacker, most corners run past every safety. So I agree

with that. We've were eye to eye on Jackson. A few of my other hits, it's a hit, but kind of. So Justin Herbert, you probably remember this because it wasn't that long ago, 2020. By the time the draft came, and I mentioned it earlier, a lot of people were out on Justin Herbert. It was Joe Burrow,, uh, and then like, oh, you can pick Justin Herbert, like in the twenties, he's too shy. He's not a leader. They handed it off 50 times. And because of all the lessons that I had learned about arm strength and athleticism and experience that I think was really important. I was like, whoa, guys, we're missing something here. Like this guy has insane, like Josh Allen level arm. He's big. He's like kind of the Mahomes

level runner where he's not going to hurdle a guy or run through him, but he's just difficult to sack. Um, he was a top 10 overall player for me. And I remember taking some, some stuff like, Hey, this guy's like more of a late first rounder as opposed to someone that will go that high. Um, and then two others that I'm grouping together, like I did earlier with the misses, Dwayne Haskins and Daniel Jones. I had Dwayne Haskins at like mid-second rounder. I had Daniel Jones even later, like a third rounder.

Now you could say, hey, you kind of missed on Daniel Jones because he's made some plays. But like we mentioned last episode, like Daniel Jones kind of just been there. And like, had he not been the sixth overall pick, the team have given him as as long of a leash as many resources probably not and those two are Daniel Jones similar to Sam Darnold and I actually hit on him too that too many turnovers and not just like oh he occasionally will miss a high throw it's fumbles in the pocket it's bad decisions decisions. It's inaccurate throws. It was like the Holy Trinity of turnovers. And with Dwayne Haskins,

it was kind of the pre Zach Wilson, Justin Fields, where there was just too many wide open receivers, too many clean pockets. Like I think he, in his final season at Ohio state, I think Haskins was pressured like under 20% of the time. It was some like astronomically low and he wasn't a great athlete. And it was like, I had learned at that point by 2019, you can't have slow feet in the pocket. So certainly RIP to Dwayne Haskins. I like mean no disrespect for that, but those are two that the turnovers and you just did not have the traits

again to be as highly picked as they ultimately were in that 2019 draft yeah so that's interesting that you went with guys you were right about that you didn't like and i was thinking about that going through your list uh for me because i just went with ones that turned out that you did like um probably james winston is the biggest one for me that I remember so much hype on him as if he was just the next Andrew Luck asked kind of right yeah oh and he he is so incredible with football IQ and this guy is through the roof and I just remember watching and I know a lot of the nonsense was going on with him and some and I call it nonsense but some very disturbing stuff also with him in college which I would probably be out at that point anyway but judged on the reporting and how that whole

situation went down um kind of you know Deshaun Watson-esque type of stuff and so but even put that aside that he I thought did not come across to me like I would want him leading a franchise. I remember this, and it's easier to say now, but he was suspended for a game and they kept showing him on the sideline. And he was cheering on his teammates so much and they kept going to him after every play. And it was like, look at Jameis.

And I just thought, this is such a performative act he's doing on the sideline he just came across as so disingenuous to me and as not any type of legitimate leader and I also thought it was it was a circus with him with the turnovers and I kept being told don't worry that he led the nation Interceptions like what are you talking about we were talking about all this crazy stuff Drake may does And he threw a handful of picks and had a handful of fumbles. And this guy was leading the nation. You lead the nation in picks. I'm probably out one way or the other. So that was probably the one that I was most completely. I would not draft him. I'm totally out that he did not work out and through 30 interceptions in the NFL. So it's never

not interesting to talk about who we had right, who we had wrong and what we can learn. So we'll go forward. We got more quarterbacks to watch their best games, which I want to do again next week. Maybe we'll have a little progress, a little news, some things trickling in, maybe a giant trade up. We'll just try to keep nudging the Vikings. All right. Now that you met with these quarterbacks, it's time. And we will go from there, but always, always great shows with you, Chris Trapasso.

And I'm looking forward to the next one, man. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Football, Chris. Say it. Football.