Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - We gotta talk about Joe Burrow and the Vikings, right?

Episode Date: December 12, 2025

Matthew Coller is joined live by Manny Hill... they talk about what this week means for the Vikings and Adam Schefter saying that Joe Burrow's comments caught the attention of the league. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider presented by Fanduil Matthew Collar here along with Manny Hill. And usually on Thursday night, we pick the schedule, but you know, the schedule is now down to only four games, which leaves us a lot more time to discuss other stuff. And Manny, I really hesitated when, you know, And I got a lot of questions from fans about Joe Burrow. And I thought, okay, so he was very upset at the podium or however they do it at the table that they do their press conferences. And it's been a miserable year for him.

He's had the injury and the team is bad. And they play this great game in Buffalo, but he throws an interception or two. And then they can't stop anything the Buffalo is doing. And when you're a quarterback of that level and you lose, it is absolute hell. So, I mean, people say stuff all the time when they're losing that we talk about and we break down, but maybe don't mean what they say. They're just in a really bad spot. However, so that's why I was going to say, like, I was going to write it off as like, he's obviously just upset. Like, move on.

However, Adam Schaefter reported today that Joe Burroughs comments caught the ears of NFL front offices that there. is at least some thought that it is a possibility that Joe Burrow could be unhappy enough in Cincinnati that he might want to be traded. And the number one team that has come up repeatedly is, and rightfully because of their quarterback situation as it's gone so far, and the fact that Justin Jefferson, his teammate and dominant wide receiver at LSU, is here in Minnesota. and I think that there still is a belief that Kevin O'Connell, at least with a veteran quarterback, can have an elite passing offense as he did last year with Sam Darnold.

So my question to you, Manny, is, is it worth us having a discussion about what it would take, how it could happen, what circumstances there might be for the Minnesota Vikings to get Joe Burrow? I think it's certainly worth the conversation. when you consider how good Joe Burrow actually is when he's healthy, the question for him, I think, is always going to be, you know, can he be healthy? Because really outside of, I mean, last year he was great, played the whole season, he was great,

but the team around him just wasn't great, particularly on the defensive side. So he put up great numbers and was even with the Bengals being kind of a 500-ish team, he was in the MVP conversation. So obviously he's one of the best quarterbacks on the planet when he is healthy. And I think when you factor in where the Vikings are right now with the roster that they have, you know, this is a team that at least we all thought going into this year was ready to win right now with all of the moves they made in free agency, even the draft pick that they've made with Donovan Jackson.

That was to solidify the offensive line to help the young quarterback. grow and develop. All the moves they made on defense, it's to solidify the holes that they had on defense last year. I think when you're in that situation now and when you've kind of underperformed largely because of the poor quarterback play, rather was J.J. McCarthy or Carson Wentz or Max Brosmer, I think it's worth at least having a discussion.

The problem and the sort of the hurdle is going to be, all right. Compensation, what is it going to take? And we can get into that. The contract with Joe Burrow, how was that going to fit into the Vikings cap situation? And I think also it's just, is Joe Burrow going to be healthy enough to make this whole thing worth it? Because he has a guy that historically speaking has had some times where he's been a little bit banged up. So let's try to answer those questions. let's start with why Cincinnati would ever do this because my initial reaction, even to Adam Schaefter's report that it caught the ear of front offices around the NFL, and I promise you it made its way to Minnesota and in TCL Performance Center that

there was probably like a little bit of a bell that rung in KOC's ears like a quarter, a quarterback, a quarterback, he's in the middle of practice, a quarterback might be available. Who could it be? But my initial reaction was, no way. If you are Cincinnati, you cannot take the greatest quarterback in your team's history. Shout out Ken Anderson. Joe Burroughs probably better. A guy who is widely considered to be on the same level as the invincible

quarterbacks we talk about all the time and then ship him out. You cannot do it. You are already kind of a joke of a friend. franchise. Look at their last offseason. They couldn't get their first rounder sign. He stinks, by the way. You couldn't get, you know, T. Higgins, you finally sign for those contracts. You waited so long on them. They're not very good. The Trey Hendrickson thing became kind of a mess. And then when your team was floundering, you did not trade Trey Hendrickson. So why did you sign him to a short term contract? If you weren't going to trade him at the deadline when your team was

struggling, doesn't make a whole heck of a lot of sense on multiple levels here of, you know, what's Cincinnati has done with that roster since they went to the Super Bowl in 2021. It's just gotten progressively worse. They fire their defensive coordinator. That doesn't matter. Now he's really good in Indianapolis. It's like you are kind of a joke franchise. If you remove Joe Burrow from that, you are talking about people showing up to the stadium with bags on their heads or not at all. Empty stadiums that you're going to play in front of the following season if you have to trade Joe Burrow. But that's

the key word is have to trade because there is history with that franchise of having to do this. Carson Palmer told them, I am not playing for you anymore. I will take my ball and I will go home. I will quit playing football rather than play for you. And they said, go ahead, Carson Palmer. And then eventually what happened? The Oakland Raiders called and said, what if we gave you X, Y, and Z for Carson Palmer? and they said, ah, shucks, I guess Carson was really going to do it.

So we'll have to trade you to the Oakland Raiders. And eventually he ends up going to the NFC championship at one point with the Arizona Cardinals. There is a scenario because Joe already has so much money where he could say, I'm just not going to play again. If you won't trade me, then I will be Andrew Luck. I will say I had a nice little career in the NFL and I will move on and I will do something else. Or he could even say until my contract runs out and those void years hit,

I am just going to sit until that contract runs out or whatever or fake an injury. There's a lot of ways you could do this. I'm going to fake an injury for the next two years. This was Kauai Leonard with the San Antonio Spurs. Oh, my knee hurts. Sorry. Can't get back. That is what I will do. Or your organization could have a complete reset with a bunch of draft picks. I don't think that that's completely unrealistic when you're talking about a team that doesn't even have a practice facility when you're talking about a team that doesn't spend money on anything and then like oh no they have to be bothered to pay their best players and then they still mess that up by not managing the rest of the roster i could see burrow having enough power to force his hand here and when you

look at the history of that ownership sticking with head coaches too long i mean how how long is how long is the Zach Taylor thing going to be a thing? I know they got to the Super Bowl, like you said, in 2021. But it's been, you know, they got back to the AFC title game the next year and lost to the Chiefs. But really, ever since then, it's been burrow injuries, bad defense, missing the playoffs, underperforming, high expectations. And, yeah, I mean, I think when you just look at the history, why wouldn't this be something that they would do. And like you said, if Burrell comes out and says, I'm not going to

play for you anymore, if you're that ownership group and you're that front office, how do you look at that and just say and fold your arms and say, you can't let him walk for nothing? You can't let him just sit for a couple of years and then the contract is up and then he moves on. And then At that point, you've lost an all-time great quarterback for absolutely nothing. It's like letting him walk in free agency, essentially. So if he's not going to let you play anymore, if he's not going to let you, you know, screw around with his career anymore, you've got to find a way to get some compensation. And then that now turns to the conversation of if he forces their hand,

what does that do for the kind of compensation that they can get in return for him? what kind of impact does that have? Okay, let me answer that in a first, uh, in a second, but, uh, thank you so much to pizza Gary OG with a huge super champ. My goodness, pizza Gary.

I just had some pizza tonight. Uh, I really appreciate it, man. That is way too kind. Uh, certainly not required. Just watching is, is great and support enough. But thank you so much.

Also, Steelhead 737. Thank you so much as well for the super chat. And, uh, steel heads got an idea. for the compensation. So let's read that. And then we'll talk about it. So Steelhead wants two first, two seconds, some mid-round picks, Addison and McCarthy, all going to Cincinnati. It's is probably more, but that's the start. Burroughs cap hit the next three years, aren't even top 10. So let's, one thing at a time. So how it could happen, we established. Now let's establish what the compensation

would be. I think Steelhead, you're a little bit on the high side just because we're talking about a player who is forcing his way out now there will be many offers for joe burrow but you're also going to have the problem is that burrow can decide where he's going or oh darn my little toe is not capable of playing if you're trying to trade me to the los vegas raiders he would have to be involved in this in accepting a trade he might even have a no trade clause in his contract that's possible i don't know but he would have to agree to it if he's threatening, I will either not play or I'm going to play where I want to play. And that would, I think, narrow the field to maybe two or three teams.

And then you're looking at the compensation for that, those teams bidding against each other. And I think that three firsts is probably where the conversation begins. I don't know about additional players. That's kind of hard to figure out there. Like Addison, they already have two elite wide receivers who are under contract. Would it have to be like Jonathan Granard or something? something. Would it have to be a younger player like Dallas Turner? Because this is a full blow it up

nuclear all the way down to the dirt the franchise would be rebuilding, except for Jamar Chase and T. Higgins. That's not really something you want to go out and get somebody who is on the older side. You're looking for younger, cheaper, so they can eventually spend money again, get a bunch of draft capital. That's what they would be looking to do. I think you begin the conversation with three first. It probably has to be. to evolve a second or two seconds. I mean, we are talking about someone just, I was going through his PFF grades over his career.

2021, he was the number one graded quarterback in the NFL by PFF. 2022, he was the number one graded quarterback. And I'm talking by 0.02 over Josh Allen and Patrick Bohm. So basically right there. 2024 follow with me. He was the number two quarterback graded by PFF. I mean, we are talking about someone that is in. the elite of the elite that tier one one a club not even the one the one b of hey these are

franchise quarterbacks like these are the legends of the game the hall of famers that you'll be talking about trading i'm not doing that for if i'm cincinnati unless i am getting preposterous return like not micha parsons it's a great pass rusher type of return like historic you might not even be able to trade that much legally according to roger Godell type of return, which leads us to the next question of, is that a good idea for the Minnesota Vikings to trade probably historic return? Let's just begin the conversation with multiple firsts and maybe a couple of second or third round picks and possibly even a player that you're going to have to throw on top to get Joe Burrow. If you guys have been wearing hats or

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See website for full details, restrictions, and important safety information. Well, if you're trading for Joe Burrow, I would think you're probably including J.J. McCarthy in that conversation to send back to Cincinnati, I would think. Yeah, absolutely,

because what they would have to sell to their fans is something. Like, hey, we got this quarterback. They could come out and say, we were extremely high on J.J. McCarthy coming out in the draft. extremely high. We, in fact, we had them rated higher than Caleb Williams and Drake May. If we didn't have Joe Burrell, we would have,

we would have loved up to begin with. Exactly. That's what they would come out with. And of course, there's one player that's completely off limits here, which is Justin Jefferson, because that's the point is to pair them back together. But probably no other player on the roster is off limits other than

I would say probably Darisaw. I don't think you trade a franchise left tackle. because that kind of defeats the purpose. The purpose would be that you can actually protect him, unlike the Cincinnati Bengals. So I think that that's probably where we're headed with McCarthy going back the other way. Yeah, and I think, yeah, I mean, is this feasible for the Vikings? Does it make sense for them to do it?

I think if you're, I think it depends on what your outlook for 2026 and probably, I guess, 2027 kind of looks like if you, feel like this is a serious window where all you've got to do is just take one of the elite quarterbacks in the league and just drop him into your offense with that elite level wide receiver and that, you know, elite level left tackle and you still got some pieces on defense that can be competitive. If you're, if you're looking at that and saying, this is our window now, then I think it makes some sense to do it. The other side of this is, if you make this move and you give up that much and it doesn't work because burrow gets hurt or you're just something happens where you don't make the playoffs you go nine and eight and just come up oh or just came up just short then there's going to be a lot of heads that are going to probably roll and now you're looking at a situation where you don't have any draft capital I mean this is a team that's already kind of starved of draft capital they've been using up a lot of picks to move up and get guys and and and things like that.

that. So it's a big swing. It's a big, you know, you know, gamble. What makes it so enticing, though, is if it works the way it should, oh boy, you're looking at. You win the damn Super Bowl. That's kind of the point. Right. That's it. And we're talking about a quarterback that led a team with not a great defense, not a great offensive line to the Super Bowl and have the ball in his hands in the final minute of that Super Bowl with a chance to go down and actually win the game. So it's a guy that is that good.

And if you think that these next two years, that is your window to win the Super Bowl and you want to go into a full-on Super Bowl or bust scenario, then you can do just like the Rams did with Matthew Stafford. F them damn picks and go for it and just see what happens. You guys are going insane in the chat with these super chats. I just cannot thank you enough.

John says, as a Vikings fan since the late 70s, I can't afford to start hoping like this. Why are you doing this to me? Give them whatever they want outside of Jefferson. Yeah, well, hey, I didn't bring it up. I was going to be like, oh, man, I feel bad for Joe Burrow. But like, let's talk about this Cowboys game in McCarthy. But once Schaefter popped his head in and was like,

he did the Brian Winhorst like, oh, maybe. Then I started to get interested. And if you can't, if you don't think that these things can happen. I mean, as we mentioned with Carson Palmer, but also I would look at the NBA and point to a Luca Donchich trade where sometimes a franchise gets put in a position where they feel like they have to do something like this. And it does occasionally happen, even the Seattle Seahawks, which now we know the results of this.

But when they traded Russell Wilson, that seemed insane. That seemed impossible. Like what, why? You know, and again, they hired Nate Hackett. They probably wasted, you know, the last year of Russell Wilson maybe being a competent quarterback. But like, what? I mean, if I had told you that in, I don't know, 2018 or somewhere around there that

Russell Wilson, this guy who was on a Hall of Fame track, I don't know if he's going to get there now, but was on a Hall of Fame track at the time would just be traded. you'd say that I was absolutely insane and that they were replacing him with Gino Smith you'd be like, uh, no, no, that'll never, ever happen. And it did. So it can happen. Uh, Jim, you are crazy for the, uh, for the super chat here.

And thank you so much for that. It says great content, but no more Herschel Walker trades. Well, here's, here's the difference, though. Herschel Walker, he's a running back. And the whole reason he was traded by Jimmy Johnson was that Jimmy Johnson knew. You cannot build a, a winning franchise around a running back, so why not trade him to get a bunch of other players? You can build a franchise that can be flawed as a roster that goes to the Super

Bowl with Joe Burrow. And think about this. This is a guy who accomplished in his second career season, something the Minnesota Vikings franchise has not done since the 1970s. We are not talking. This is like when the Lamar thing came up a couple years ago. And for whatever collusion reasons. Nobody would call Baltimore and make this trade. And it was like, does anyone realize that this guy's like good enough to take you to a Super Bowl? I know he's choked in the playoffs. They're not the point. Like Joe, Joe Burrow is good enough. He meets the threshold of good enough to take you to an actual Super Bowl that even we're talking about how great Sam Darnold was last year. Joe Burrow, most of his seasons are better than that. And that got

you to 14 wins, and Burrow has showed up in some huge playoff games, including going to Casey. Oh, wait, no, no, it was in Cincinnati, wasn't it was in Cincinnati that they beat Casey. But either way, uh, it was in Kansas City. Their first playoff game was in Cincinnati because I remember the people were like crying, leaving the stadium. Uh, they're really going to be crying if he goes. But to go to Casey and defeat Patrick Mahomes there to go to the Super Bowl and outplay him. Holy cow. Like, this is the level. you're talking about you are when we talk about like all time viking's quarterbacks we have super fun conversations and we're like i don't know maybe brad johnson is number three and uh i'll throw

jeff george in there it would be like fran burrow immediately the minute he arrives here he is the second best quarterback in minnesota viking's history uh and if he goes to the super bowl and wins he would be you know considered the best to your point though manny you talk about all in this is so far beyond all in. But there is evidence that they would consider this. And here's the evidence. There was a report last year, didn't make too many waves because, you know, it didn't happen, that they called about Justin Herbert. And, or may, this might have been in 2024 before they decided to draft J.J. McCarthy. And when a Harbaugh first got there, there was like, hey, would you want to trade us Harbaugh? And you can draft McCarthy, your guy for Michigan. And Harbaugh

hung up the phone. But as you should, when you have a quarterback that, good, although I think Burrow is better than Justin Herber. But the Vikings have hunted this, and they have talked in a way since Quasi Adolfo Menta got here about chasing the Super Bowl. The reason they went to JJ and didn't stick with Darnold, as much as that deserves criticism for the 2025 season, the reason they did it was to chase the Super Bowl. It wasn't to get to the first round and then get blasted by somebody because you can't afford linemen like what happened with, you know, Kirk.

in 2022, this would be a full true swing. And like you said, if you trade for Joe Burrow and he gets hurt and you go six and 11, yes, you're all probably very fired. But you know, if you stick with J.J. McCarthy next year and it doesn't work. You go six and 11. You're probably going to get, everybody's probably going to get fired. That's correct. Yeah.

One way or another, this timeline runs out probably after, 2026. It is a 2022 to 2026 timeline that they plotted out when they got here, and I don't think they looked past that. Because you can't. Like, you really can't look past three or four years in the NFL.

And you are on the last leg of that. And it was this year and next year that you're supposed to win. Well, this year, you ain't winning. So next year, it would make a lot of sense to say bleep them picks for this group. Because if it doesn't work,

then the next people are going to have to deal with the fact they have no picks. And if it does work, they will build a freaking statue of Kevin O'Connell. And you trade for Joe Burrow, you instantly have the best quarterback in your division. Like it's not even a conversation. And Jared Goff is good. Jordan Love is good. Caleb Williams is playing better and he may end up being great down the line. But you make the trade for Joe Burrow,

you absolutely unequivocally have the best quarterback in your division and you're going into 2026 with a lap playing a last place schedule because you're going to finish in last place this year so you're going to have a lot of things that could potentially work in your favor again if it borough can stay healthy you know you get you get your line healthy you have justin jefferson you still have some pieces on defense it's a tough division but i think it would be a a huge opportunity for them to compete in this division it's not this division is tough, but it's not insurmountable if you can get an elite quarterback of that level. There's a real point there, though, Manny, of if we're doing a quarterback ranking this year,

Jared Goff and Jordan Love are both top 10 quarterbacks. Jordan Love might be top three to five quarterbacks this year. And I know Vikings fans can't stand when I bring that up, but like the facts are the facts, the grades, the rating, the numbers, all that stuff, and the winning. has all gone in Jordan Love's favor. But we know he's not perfect. Jared Gough has had another great season. They've lost some tight games.

We know he's not perfect. Caleb Williams is ascending and he's getting better. We know he's not perfect. Their coach is really good. Their team's going to get better. But they have a very high bar set this year. With Williams ascending and his Jordan Love, I think is playing on a different level since he got Christian Watson back.

And we know how good golf is. He's not losing any of those weapons this year. year. All those teams are going to win. They're all meant to win. They're built to win. Their timelines, they tanked. They got to this point. They could spend money in free agency. The Bears can. The Lions are in their Super Bowl window for probably one more year. The Packers, we hear all the time, how young they are with their, uh, around their expensive quarterback. All these teams built for this moment. So if you go into next year with a pop gun to a shotgun fight, you're probably going to going to end up with similar results.

And the only reason you got five wins right now, other than Cincinnati and Washington really helped you out, is that dude who's the D.C., Brian Flores, has propped up one of the worst passing games in Vikings history so far this year to even have like a remotely respectable record. I don't want to call five and eight respectable, but like within, within shouting distance of it, I mean, if you're going to compete with those teams, to win a division next year, you have to have not good quarterback play or okay quarterback play.

You probably have to have fantastic quarterback play because you're not just going to do it with a run game and defense. And then, hey, maybe J.J. McCarthy could throw for 163 yards. If this is your, if this is your plan, then it's probably not going to result in a Super Bowl.

Now, McCarthy might develop and get better and become a much better and more competitive quarterback. and they'll, you know, continue to build the roster. But when you look around and go, do you have a better roster than Detroit? Like, probably not. Do you have a better roster than Green Bay when they have Michael Parsons? Like, I mean, it's, you know, maybe, but not, probably not.

And then you're going to lose some people. Harrison Smith's probably going to retire. If Chicago spends another 100 mil in free agency, are you going to have a better roster than them? Like, probably not. This is, this is the path. like the path that has the best chance is this now can it actually happen we laid out how it's possible but it now we should answer the final question with how likely personally i feel like someone

uh you know gave me some really good pizza before the show that had you know energy drink lined into the sauce here with this conversation because i'm like oh man let's talk about all the ways that could happen right but give me a percentage realisticness manny of joe burrow minnesota viking 2006 i'm honestly going to say like five percent i just don't realistically it's not that i don't think that it's possible i just don't think it's very likely coming because look we saw never a 17 years ago never in a million years, what I have thought Brett Farr would play quarterback for the Minnesota Vikings. Yeah, right, exactly. I never would have imagined it. And then a couple of years later,

it, it happened. And he had them on the brink of going to the Super Bowl. So I'm not going to say never, but I just don't think it's very likely because I just, I can't imagine the Bengals full on screwing this up again. I mean, you have, you have almost like a golden goose quarterback here. And what you, to me, what you have to do is you're the Bengals. You have to focus. Now, look, if he comes out and says he wants out, then you're in a tougher situation. But you have a guy this good and he's in the prime of his career now. He's 20, what, 27, 28 years old. He's already gotten you to a Super Bowl. He's fantastic. You've got to try. You've got to try. and really continue to build around this guy and compete.

Maybe a coaching change might be necessary there. I don't know how they feel about Zach Taylor. But to me, it just feels like unless somebody swoops in and absolutely just blows them away, I just have a hard time believing that they're actually going to trade them. So I'll put it at about 5% that the Vikings get in the mix here and end up with him. All right. Let's go through the responses.

I mean, you're right to bring up Favre in terms of, like, don't ever say something could never happen in Minnesota. That they don't ever, having been in the building for the Minneapolis Miracle with Case Keatham and having seen Brett Favre take the team within one throw across his body to the Super Bowl, something that no one had ever dreamed of anything, as KG said, is possible in Minnesota sports. Let me go through your responses. Justin's got it at 1%. uh raymond says great talk about joe he would look great at purple but don't see it happening but you never know you're right uh steelheads got it at three to five percent a pipe dream but things about it do make sense saberborn has it at point five percent and jack has it at a hundred

brian's got it at one uh your favorite overlord has it at 25 percent and uh case goal has it at 12. So we're kind of all over the map, uh, with this stuff. Um, let's see, a good point by Chase. I want to talk about this. How concerned can you be with Burrough's injury history and then confidently say, uh, stick with McCarthy. Oh, okay. Yeah. Well, well, right, because he has an injury history himself. It's a little, it's a little bit different. Um, one sprained ankle that kept him out a lot longer than you expect for a sprained ankle and one meniscus surgery. Uh, Joe Burrow is like the game operation like it's injuries all over the place and this you know turf toe is one of the nastiest injuries you could get it needs a different name it needs like hell toe or something because

it's just awful and he's playing in a ton of pain with a shoe this just tells you what a psycho this guy is to keep playing for his terrible team it's like a shoe that has steel in it or something and it's so uncomfortable for him that he takes it off on the sideline like this is what a terrible injury it is. And his injury history as part of this conversation as we go through, hey, man, look at, look at his numbers, look how good he's been, look how fantastic this player is. If you are giving up three firsts, two seconds, and Dallas Turner or something to get

back a player that has a injury history like this, it is beyond an all in for one year to try to win the Super Bowl move because you are also risking. look at the Bengals this year. All off season, they were like, yay, we got our receivers back. We got Hendrickson back. Let's go fight, fight, fight. And he gets hurt right away. And your season is just completely blasted.

The reason for me that I would roll the dice on that is just because what we went over in the NFC North, I have such a tough time seeing them next year, have enough juice to beat all those teams and to win the Super Bowl without J.J. McCarthy transforming. into a butterfly over the off season and just becoming a great quarterback. That's a long way away. And I think JJ can be a really good quarterback in the NFL. I can see

where that would happen. But to do it next year, one off season and he becomes Josh Allen or something to compete with those guys, it's taking Jordan Love three years to get his coach to trust him to run a whole offense. It's not easy, man. And McCarthy's going to be the gross old age of 23 next year. So, I mean, when you're going to go all in, you got to, I think you got to go all

in and you know that it's 50, 50. This could completely blow up in your face. Another thing to think about and something that me, you and Murph talked about a couple of weeks ago is don't sleep on the mindset of the Wilps because that is an ownership group that again, this is their 21st season owning this team and they've made the playoffs less than half the time that they've owned it and they've got three playoff wins since they bought the team in 2005 from Red McCombs.

So you have to think if they see an opportunity where they can get a quarterback of the caliber of Joe Burrow, a guy who's already proven that he can lead a team to the Super Bowl and lead them to at least on the brink of winning a Super Bowl.

I got to think an ownership group like that who wants to win, who does not like losing, does not like missing the playoffs in consecutive years, no doubt. You know, they're going to miss the playoffs this year. Do you think the Wilson want to miss the playoffs next year? Writing it out with J.J. McCarthy and going eight and nine or nine and eight

and coming up just short, they're not going to be happy with that. So I got to think if they see an opportunity there, I would imagine they would at least be trying to push and say, hey, maybe this is something we need to do because we need to win right now. we want to win a Super Bowl, we want to put ourselves in the best possible scenario to do that. Right. And I think, you know, those of you bringing up the Herschel Walker trade, there is a reality that if it didn't work, it would take a really long time to rebuild to a point

where you are relevant again. But I also think that the Detroit Lions, the Chicago Bears, they are proof. And this is like my other little, you know, offshoot of this is this has always been, the pro tanking show manny since you and i have known each other we have had conversations about tanking every time i watch anthony edwards play i go gosh where do you get a player like that oh yeah number one overall where where cincinnati they were trash where they get a player like this joe burrow oh yeah where they get that jamar chae oh yeah where you know right so i could go on and on but you how did detroit build up a team that was relevant for that long if you go after joe burrow and you fail then you will absolutely have to, you can't really tank for the number one draft picks, but you

will be in for a very long type of rebuild that may end up looking really, really gnarly. And that's the hard part about it is that you know that the wrong side of this thing is super wrong. It's probably Cleveland wrong. And it might result in all sorts of calamities, but it also is not impossible to rebuild the team. Because one of the things you could do to recoup those draft picks is trade other veteran players and move guys. And ultimately, if we're going this far down the road, you probably end up having to trade Jefferson at some point, if it all blows up in your face and then you try to get the draft picks back.

And now we've gone way too far. But for me, the reason it's not the Herschel Walker trade is that the quarterback actually can take you to the Super Bowl. It was really faulty thinking by the Vikings. There's two levels to that. There's the, you traded a guy who resulted in getting, them all sorts of crazy good players and that looks really bad for you but also you traded for something that's not that valuable in this case you're trading for something that is truly

that valuable and when you start also putting it in your mind kOC's offense requires what anticipation and accuracy and timing this dude is a freak when it comes to that stuff this guy is Drew Brees. This is like getting Drew Brees to your offense. And can he push it to a number one wide receiver? Let's Google Jamar Chase's numbers. Yes. Yes, I think he can. Like the, the, the, best side of this to me is so worth it. But you do know that if it goes wrong, your franchise is in for some hell for probably multiple seasons. You just, I think if you do it, you just better hope you win the Super Bowl because I think the sting of that probably four or five years stretch of hell, cap hell, team being bad hell, will be worth it if you're hoisting a Lombardi

trophy in the next couple of years. I want to say one more thing with the Herschel Walker trade too because people have been bringing that up. The other part of that too, I think that some people are forgetting is the head coach didn't, the head coach of the Vikings at that time didn't want Herschel Walker because he didn't fit his scheme. Yeah. Bernsey did not want Herschel Walker because Herschel was not a guy.

You know, Burnsey liked the running backs that he could toss the ball out of the backfield, you know, throw the ball two out of the backfield, Darren Nelson and guys like that who weren't great backs, but they, you know, they fit a role and they fit into his, into his scheme. Joe Burrow fits, to your point, fits everything that Kevin O'Connell wants to do with his offense. So that, I think, is a huge, huge, huge difference there and why, you know, at least on paper, this would make a lot of sense for the Vikings to try and do. Zumer K.O. says you trade for Joe Burrow. You now have a 10-year window. And that's another point, too, that, you know, when it comes to the cap, I should talk about the cap because that's it, that is important.

Like, can you make that part work? We kind of just sort of said, well, that's a big question. Then we talked about other stuff. So that, that is important to talk about. Let me talk about that in a sec. but this is a good point that let's say let's say they trade for burrow and in 2026 they're great they go to the divisional round things fall apart maybe a kicker misses wide left not that will rickard whatever but you know whatever the backup kicker after riker got hurt mrs wide left and they lose in the divisional round you're like oh no now you're screwed you know how you're going to rebuild but look at Cincinnati last year and they won nine games they needed one stop on defense against the Denver br Broncos to make the playoffs. And that team's horrible. If you have Jefferson still, and I don't know, we'll just say Addison for the sake of argument and Derrissau, like those core players that are in their primes and are going to, you know, guide you through this, you are still going to be competitive until you can build up the rest of the roster and then have other shots at it, because he's still young enough if you could keep him healthy, that he could be in this league a lot

longer. Philip Rivers 44, set in the new mark for quarterbacks coming back. So I think that that's an interesting point. As far as the cap goes, because I did see a couple people saying, like, this is great, but you can't afford it. So here's the thing about his cap hit for next year. You can, because he has guaranteed salary left, you can restructure it to lower his cap hit to get in the ballpark of being pretty reasonable. I just looked at this yesterday when people were asking about it.

I think you could chop like $20 million off of his cap hit by restructuring it. And if you're talking about this type of play, we know that the Wilf's do not, you know, have a tight wallet like Cincinnati does. If you're doing this, they're going to go for it. Also, imagine the resale value of tickets at that point. Like, holy cow, right? They're going to fill U.S. Bank Stadium every single game. But if they spent six years restructuring Kurt Cousin's contract, I think they would do that for Joe Burrow. Right.

And so that's another point. Like long term, yeah, that does become tricky because you have to extend him. but what extending it would do is allows you to BS that contract with void years at the end, which Cincinnati already did. And that's another point of why they could actually have to trade him because after next year, he doesn't have any more guaranteed salary. They can't restructure. They can't screw around with that deal.

He kind of holds the cards where he's going to say, yeah, I'll walk into that season with a 50 or 60, I forget what it is, 50 or $60 million cap hit and there's nothing you guys can do about it. because it's always set up for an extension. This is, it's same with Jefferson. These are always set up for when are we going to extend and then low cap hit, low cap hit, void years at the end. And that's how they did it with, with Burrow.

So the Vikings would be able to do that also with him eventually with a long-term extension. And then that would kind of extend out this type of window. But, I mean, with the team that they have, they would be limited, I'm sure, for what they could do in free agency. would be true. They would have to give up, you know,

a top 15 draft pick so you don't have that player. Your roster will be flawed. But your offense, if you don't have to touch that, and then you restructure players like O'Neill, which they've held off restructuring, you could extend Grenard and lower his cap hit almost, you know, maybe cut it in half and push that money into the future. Like, oh, yeah, you'd be, you'd be doing some crazy stuff to get there.

But you can. You can if you start off with a restructure for him. And I remember when they traded for Fav, and I know it was a very different cap, when they traded for Fav, I remember the story was they were like, they were like all the way up against the cap and then, or not traded, but signed Fav. And then they signed Fav. And it was like, oh, yeah, no, they just figured it out. It's like for for one or two years, you can figure out just about anything that you want to with the salary cap. It's, but, you know, long term, it would become problematic for the following seasons and the idea is that he's so good and Jefferson's so good that you can remain competitive after that. And then, you know, finally when you get your draft picks back and stuff like that. But I think there's no question about it, Manny.

If you're doing it, you are doing it for pretty much 2026 to try to win the Super Bowl. And the precedent for this, I think is probably, it's probably Los Angeles. I mean, you brought them up where they said. said, Jared Goff is good. Matthew Stafford here could be great. And we're just going to take that big swing. And it's happened before with teams and it hasn't worked. But I would credit any team that did it.

And I'm still, I still credit this team for trying to do it with the rookie quarterback contract. But if you're at a point where you're like, okay, McCarthy would have to have a miracle happen in the off season to compete with Jordan Love, Jared Goff, and Caleb Williams, then you are looking at doing something like this. and when you think about the Rams, everybody said, you know,

they went all in on the Stafford Trade and it worked out in the first year and look at them now five years later. They're still right here in this competitive, you know, and they had some couple down years and Stafford got hurt and there were some questions about rather he'd be back or if he was going to retire and all that stuff.

But here they are, I guess, I guess it'll be four years later now. Here they are. The Rams still one of the best teams in the league. week in a Super Bowl window. They, you know, the Waster's been replenished and newer, younger players and everything, and they've done a nice job with that. But that all in approach hasn't sunk their franchise.

And in fact, has put them in a spot where they're competing for a Super Bowl again. Because of, you know, some of the good drafting that they've been able to do and getting some of the younger players to work out and staff are still playing well. And they have, you know, one of the great coaches in the league today. it's possible that you know you go all in on this borough thing and it works out and then it still can kind of work out after you know maybe a couple of down ears you find yourself back in a good position if you make some good moves along the way yeah i mean look everybody everybody knows that nothing is 100% and that it could blow up in your face and so all the points about that in the chat are not wrong like hey there's even if you trade for Joe Burrow and let's even throw out the he gets hurt thing. Let's just say that they're really good and somebody else is great and they don't win the division like what happened with 14 and 15 wins last year.

They go on the road in the playoffs. You have a bad break. Somebody has a kick return for touchdown and to win a game or something and you look around and you go, oh my gosh. Like it's so narrow. The Stafford thing was so narrow. I, look, I was against the Stafford thing because I thought, I was too.

This is crazy. They give, if you go all in like this and give up your draft picks and mess up your salary cap and it doesn't work, like they were able to get back here several years later. But, you know, the following season, what do they win? Like six games. And the next year, they lost to the Lions because their team wasn't good enough at Ford Field. So it does set you back, even if you've got a great front office like that, not fully convinced this is a great front office.

I think it's a good one. I don't know that if it's a great one. But, you know, the point just being, like, everybody knows that. Everybody knows that if you get a bad break in a divisional playoff game and you lose, you're going to look around and go, oh, no. But you've been bumbling around with nine or ten wins. Oh, it's a five win or it's a, you know, it's a six to a seven win season. It's a, oh, my gosh, a 13 win season.

season that was kind of fake. You know, okay, seven wins season. Oh, a 14 win season is kind of fake. And, you know, I think last year was a lot less fake than 2022. They still outscored their opponents by 100 points. So they were a good team. But once again, you know, you weren't quite good enough to get there. And this always a bridesmaid thing, I think is worth considering doing something insane

to not be that if there's any chance to not be that. Even if you go into the season with a 10% chance to win the Super Bowl, it will be by far your largest chance to win the Super Bowl entering a season since Brett Favre walked out there in 2010. I mean, to me, that that makes it worth the chance. And if, Manny, if this team had been super methodical with their build, if they had said, all right, 14 wins, but, you know, look, that's, that was tough. So we're going to stack draft capital.

and, you know, that was a one-time thing and the AFC South or whatever. We're going to stack draft capital. This is a longer-term thing with J.J. McCarthy. We're trying to build a sustainable. This is what the Packers did. The Packers, they stacked a bunch of draft capital that they got back in the Rogers trade

and they drafted a bunch of players. They didn't go crazy in free agency and didn't make the Parsons move until they were pretty damn sure that Jordan Love was a really good quarterback. They were methodical. The Vikings have not been methodical. They went berserk this offseason.

It was crazy. The number of emergency podcasts I had to do. If you went absolutely nuts to try to win in 25 and 26, then let's get nuts. So what an interesting thing to pop up that I think, you know, everybody's going to have different opinions on. But let me give you the fan dual question today. This is going to say anything that we move on to right now is going to be like, oh, Well, yeah, fandal question of the day. Because this is just so interesting with the borough discussion.

And I'd like to keep going with it. And we still have to pick the schedule, which also seems pointless in comparison to this. It's like, when can they do? Yeah, people in the chat are like, is it illegal to do it now? Yeah, it's very illegal to do it now. Yes. It's it's extremely, that'll cost you three draft picks if you call, uh, well, let's see. You could, I mean, you could, you can't call borough, but you could call them.

You can call them. You can't call Borough and be like, demand a trade to Minnesota. You know, you can't send him a carrier pigeon that drops it off at his house with a note that just says Jefferson. You know, you can't do that. But, I mean, you could call Cincinnati and be like, hey, at the end of the season, would you guys be interested? Like, where does he stand? I guarantee their phones were ringing off the hook today with 10, 12 teams checking in. Just want to make sure that when the window to make this trade opens up again,

That, because remember, the crazy thing about the Stafford trade was that trade was done in January, but they couldn't actually finish that trade until March, I think, right? Yeah, because the new year has to begin until you can actually make that trade. So these things happen all the time before, but usually they don't happen like now. The season usually comes to an end first. But yeah, you can call. A Fandual question of the day, by the way, is the Vikings are. six and a half point underdogs against the Dallas Cowboys on Fan Duel, what does J.J. McCarthy have to do statistically to beat them by at least a touchdown.

That is the fan duel question of the day because we really should get to talking about J.J. McCarthy and the Dallas Cowboys. But you know, there is a, there's a borough connection to J.J. McCarthy, Cowboys, rest of the season, which is, is there anything that he can do in these final four games that would make you say actually I'm out on the borough idea I'm in with the direction let's just keep going with JJ McCarthy

is there any level of performance Manny that could make you say you know what you know what let's just let's say the course I think we would need to see and not even any one individual performance, I think we would need to see a collection of performances. And I'm talking about not just winning games,

but, you know, can you throw for 250, 260 yards in a game that you just win and dominate by a couple of touchdowns? You know, I mean, Sunday was great. They got to win. They dominated a vastly inferior football team in Washington. When you look up and McCarthy only threw for 163 yards. Now, Vikings were able to run the ball a lot because they had a big lead

and controlled the clock in the second half. But still, you know, we haven't seen that moment yet from McCarthy where he just comes out and he's just throwing darts for four quarters and just kicking somebody's ass, kicking, just destroying a defense and just absolutely shredding. We've seen moments of, you know, drives or, you know, a quarter where it's like, oh, yeah, there's some really good throws there.

and he, you know, led the offense really well, and they moved the ball with some consistency. I want to see a full-fledged four-quarters performance from him where he's just lightening up and throwing darts all over the place. And I want to see it happen over the course of multiple games. And again, we've been saying this for weeks, he's going to have an opportunity to do that against the Dallas Cowboys defense. It's going to be a little tougher, not as good of defense,

or not as bad a defense as he saw in Washington this past. Sunday, but I need to see something like that before I have any belief that he's just going to turn this around and they're going to be in great shape at the quarterback position next year. I agree. I think it would have to be Herculean type of performance. It would have to be win a shootout against DAC in Dallas. I mean, 324 touchdowns, game winning drive. Okay, that's one. And then you go to New York, just doesn't even matter what you do there. Just blast them. Like, you know, statistically you might get ahead by so much. It's not a huge game. Beat golf on Christmas Day. Outperform golf. And then do some sort of damage to the Green Bay Packers,

whatever it is. I don't know what their scenarios are going to be. But, you know, cost them something. Like beat them at home on the final day of the season and put up like 250 plus and have PFF grades that are in the 80. Like, we're talking about Joe Burrow. His PFF grade in most of his seasons, it's like a 90. McCarthy just had his best game ever, which was like a 70. I mean, like, we're talking about a gap that is just worlds. And I know, like, it's a young quarterback versus a superstar.

But, like, that's how far it needs to go to get to that level where you're talking about, okay, you're going into next year feeling great. I don't think it's insane to think he can perform really well in these last four games. I don't think it's insane to think that he could win three of the next four games. But if it's like Washington and it's 13 personnel and, hey, here's a deep out against a cornerback that's terrible and then run, run, run, check down to Ben Sims, run, pop pass to Jalen Naylor, run, run, run, like, that's not, that's not going to do it. And I think if you're O'Connell, you're maybe trying to baby step your way into those last two games

and then, like, roll out the full offense again, just sort of get him some confidence. I actually think it was a good idea, right? Pair it down, get some confidence, and then see if you could build them back up over these next couple weeks. Like, it's not impossible. It's probably about the same amount of odds

that they trade for Joe Burrow, though. It's probably like 5, 10%, but it can happen. These are some bad defenses, and then those games are at home at the end. And it does happen fast sometimes for quarterbacks. Like Joe Burrow in his second year, and I know he had way more college, you know, play than J.J. McCarthy, but he just came on in his

second year. And all of a sudden, it was pedal to the medal. So it can happen. God forbid, they have a balanced game plan. They didn't have a balanced game plan last game. It was just running all the time and then throwing, you know, every once in a while when you're up by 20 points. But anyway, you know, so look, you know, there's, you can, I'm done with trying to blame the game plan. and any of that nonsense. You got to go play football. Like, you got to, like other quarterbacks have done this in this offense. Go play football. You've got everything. Go play. Go, go win games. Go put up yards.

I'm tired of this nonsense of pure progression, debates and everything else. I'm exhausted of it. Sam Darnold won a bunch of games before. Nick Mullins played well. Like, I'm just, I'm just sick of that. Sick of the blame everybody else. He's got to get better, man. And he's got to, he's got to show it. I mean, we, we can't tiptoe around this stuff.

and look at 163 yards against Washington and be like, all right, yep, this is what we want to see. This is great. Like, it's like, okay, cool. He didn't wet the bed against one of the worst teams in football. Congratulations. We need to see more. It's got to be more.

This team is not going to be able to compete. They have no chance to compete over the next three or four years with this guy, quarterback, if he doesn't show significant improvement. It has to happen. They need this. happen and if it's not going to happen then they got to look elsewhere right yeah and that's just the reality like i think we all agree that and this is you know tom brady kurt warner all these people we all agree that if you could develop j j mccarthy for five seasons slowly methodically

and every year he gets a little bit better that it would be great and he would probably get to a point where he could read defenses immediately and where his timing would just the jefferson was on point and You know, if this was 1971 and the team was bad and you got lifetime contracts for players and it was Terry Bradshaw with the Steelers, yeah, like, that's fine. Like, you can do that. It's not. That's not the world that we live in. It's, we're already talking about 2026 and the job pressure that exists.

The ownership also back in the day, because people like to bring up, well, this team spent this much time with that player before they turn the corner. I don't think when Terry Bradshaw was playing quarterback that his ownership spent $300 million of free agency to build the team around him because there was no such thing. So they just had to have great drafts and, you know, build around Terry Bradshaw and develop him over five years. It's a different world. It would be lovely if you could do it.

But you can't. There's pressure to make this happen very quickly. And I think that there's a, you know, a good point about from Joe about finding Justin Jefferson. and, you know, like, it's not working if you're not finding Jefferson. That's, that's an absolute fact. In this offense, if Carson Wentz, so I looked this up today, Carson Wentz hit Jefferson for 34 passes in five games, which if you translate that out to 17 games is 115 catches,

which is Justin Jefferson's per 17 rate under KOC. So if Carson Wentz, you know, can do that, then at least you should be able to get more than 11 yards. for the number one wide receiver. And if you can't, then you're not doing it right in this offense. And yeah, you know, of course you can be, you know, snarky marauder and say, oh, seven games is all you get. Let's look at history, man.

There's a lot of examples of quarterbacks who didn't get five, seven years to develop. And a lot of times where they do, they were playing for absolutely horrible teams who just like had no better ideas. but when you look at the Trey Lance, you look at the Anthony Richardson, like there's a lot of recent examples of quarterbacks. And do I think it's fair? Absolutely not. I don't think it's fair.

In a philosophical world, I'd love to give him the world. I'd love to give him till he's 27, 28 years old. Look at Sam Darnold. Was it fair to Sam Darnold that the Jets were a freaking garbage fire? And then they traded him away like it was his fault. And then he goes to Carolina where they hire a college coach to try to coach an NFL team and the guy has no idea what he's doing. And then they finally fire him in Darnold plays well.

And it's like, oh, okay, well, you know, finally. And the guy has to go be a backup. Is that justice? Is that fair for Sam Darnold? No, but it's life in the NFL. You don't get forever. Turn a corner here. Make some plays against some terrible defenses.

Show that you could be the quarterback for next year or different conversations need to start happening. So that's where we're at. And you can't erase six games. and also you can't hang a freaking banner for 160 yards passing. If Kirk was playing against Washington, the guy throws for 325 and four touchdowns that day. That defense was a joke.

It's a nice step to get some confidence, but we are nowhere close to declaring like, oh, yeah, don't even call Cincinnati about Joe Burrow. You're all set because he threw for 163 against the 32nd ranked defense, please. And we have seen a couple of examples this century with this franchise where they were trying to build up a young quarterback and we saw some flashes towards the end of a season

that made us think, oh, maybe the guys, maybe he's actually figured it out and they go into the season with that guy being the starting quarterback and then it just, they fall flat in their faces. We saw it with Tavares Jackson, may rest in peace. And we saw it with Kristen Ponder at the end of 2012. And that game against the Packers, game where Adrian went over 2,000 yards and almost broke the record. That was one of the best games of Ponder's,

career and everybody was like okay maybe we've got something here and then you went into 2013 and everything fell apart and leslie fraser got fired and it was here we are then they were drafting teddy bridgewater the year after that so it happens fast it happens fast and you have to be careful not to get too enamored with one game that you see towards the end of the season due to certain circumstances. So I think for McCarthy, we've got to see him put together a few games here of really rock, solid, excellent growth and development as a quarterback to have any sort of idea that this is going in the right direction.

And here's my point. Just to be clear, I really liked what I saw from him last week. I gave him an a minus for the game. And the only minus was some of the sacks and maybe a dangerous throwaway or two. But that was it. Like, he played really well. And I think that McCarthy has the right mentality to be a good quarterback eventually in the NFL. And I think that there is a potential here for some confidence to click in, to find Jefferson,

to play some teams that aren't as great as Green Bay at Lambeau Field, and then go into those last two games and have a chance to really show everybody the progress that he's made. It's been really tough on him, I mean, everything, like the pressure that he was put on. He did not do that to himself. the organization did that to him and he didn't make his own meniscus get hurt and that's I mean that's never even happened before where a rookie was drafted in the top 10 and had to miss their whole first season it's been a really hard road for him and if he gets to the end of it and you're saying wow you finished eight and nine and you've got a chance to go into next year and be a really good team with j j mccarthy that's the desired outcome my point is just

that you reach a moment where it's either put up or shut up up. And unfortunately, that moment is way too soon, but it's here because it's gone so badly that you have to start putting up or shut up because everything from the history of his first seven starts looks like Josh Rosen. And if that's how it looks, then what did that team do? After one year of Josh Rosen, they were completely right. They bailed and went and got Kyler Murray. like that's again another example of like oh why didn't the arizona give josh rosen nine years to develop well i don't know like because you can't do that you just can't zach wilson didn't get nine years to develop uh it would be wonderful if you can and maybe someday he'll show up as a i don't know a uh a berlin bobcat

in the year you know 2034 but like that's just not how anything has to work in this situation so it's time and i think that i've really gotten the sense from kevin o'connell it's like we've gotten QB school all year long and now he's just like I got nothing left I've taught him everything I can teach him he's got to go make some plays I've put on three tight ends I've run play actions I've run deep outs to get you know so he doesn't have to throw over the middle and read a linebacker or anything he's put it as well as he possibly could for him last week and he did and he did fine but you know I also thought that some of the reaction was like he had had a great game and it was fine it was fine it was fine fine it's and that's a thing you know marauder who has been one of his uh biggest defenders and that's fine uh is says it isn't even two years i mean we are four weeks away from it being two years of him being an NFL player i mean you have to start seeing something you have to start seeing something in in two years so i mean the the Denver broncos have the best record in the afc and they're getting ready to go to the play

for the second year in a row with Bo Nix and people are still like trashing Bo Nix as if he's terrible. So like, why are we going so hard for this situation when we haven't even seen Bo Nix level play from this quarterback yet? Well, because people want it really badly.

Like they want it. That's why. I mean, and they were told by the team for a long time, that entire year that, you know, J.J. McCarthy was the future. And then we told them, which is true. I didn't come lie to you that McCarthy had a good training camp.

I did notice T.J. Hawkinson was talking today and he said that something about how the opening script was like running routes on air. And he just sort of slid it in casually against Washington. And I was like, it was a routes on air game. But, you know, like he has shown some flashes. I think he has a competitive fire that, you know, I think Kevin O'Connell is trying to be like, okay, let's cool it down a little bit there with the whole nine thing and everything else after one win.

But, you know, that's always been the ideas that you'd rather pull somebody back than try to get them fired up. So I think that there's positive things about it. It's just that when you create a situation for yourself as a franchise where, you're hoping that year two and three are when your young quarterback starts to click as has happened so many times in the NFL. Jared Goff by year two has the number one offense in the NFL. Jared Goff by year three is in the Super Bowl. It's hard to be a young quarterback in the NFL and I think it's gotten way harder just in the last two or three years. I totally

agree with that. That's why in part why, you know, Philip Rivers is playing for the Indianapolis Colts and so forth, although they would be playing Anthony. Richardson if he hadn't got hurt behind the scenes. But the point just being, like, there is a severe lack of young quarterbacks who are able to take on these defenses. And it probably, we probably are in an era where these guys are going to take a little bit longer than even eight years ago with Jared Gough. But it's also not an impossibility to make progress through your first season as a

starter and your second season as a pro and get to the point where we have expectations. for you in week 15, 16, 17, 17, and 18. And that's why I'm saying, like, raise the bar, folks. This is the end of his season. By now, most rookies don't feel like rookies anymore. We know who they are as players or we're starting to get that sense. So these four games, to me, have serious expectations and serious implications on what is going to happen in the offseason.

Yeah. I mean, I just think that. again, we've just got to see significant improvement because the only way that this team is going to compete, the only way they're going to have a chance, especially in this division, that's the other thing. That's the other reason why the bar is so high now, fair or not for J.J. McCarthy is you brought this up earlier. The other quarterbacks in this division are not going anywhere. I mean, Jared Goff's on the other side of 30, but he's still really, really good. Jordan Love, you said the numbers.

He's really good. And he's in his mid to late 20s. He's not going to decline anytime soon. And Caleb Williams is only going upward from here. So if you're going to compete and if you're going to have a chance in these next handful of years and JJ McCarthy's going to be the guy, he's going to have to get up to that level. Otherwise, you have no got even in this division, let alone this conference.

Let's pick these games because we've gone over our usual amount of time here. And I know I don't know what's going on in the football game. But I'd like to see some of that. Let's see. Mission Murphy says, what does JJ need to do in the final four games for you to feel confident going into next season? Yeah, I think because we talked about the scenario where you would like tell Cincinnati we're good, which would be, you know, if he goes absolutely berserk and just has four crazy amazing games. in order to feel confident, I think what you would need to see is him running the full offense with success.

And it's not like Sam Darnold played every game perfectly last year. But if he played Sam Darnold-esque football at the end of the season where he is running the full offense, because look, last week was a you could have won this game with Tim Tebow, a quarterback type of performance. and they kind of acted like it when you run what 34 times and past 23 like i i commend them for winning the football game god dang the organization needed that right they needed a win there because it was melting into the sun at that moment but uh you know like anyone could have played quarterback and won that game because of the way they set it up what you want to see is all right you're going to the line of scrimmage you're looking at the defense you're making the requisite

checks, changes, you're sending somebody in motion, all right, you're shifting somebody else. All right, now you're ready. Now you got your right look. It's not just this little half-field read versus a team that doesn't even know what they're doing defensively. It's like, oh, no, make a good read, make anticipation throws, find Justin Jefferson, which is really going to be, you know, I don't know if it's the right term, but like the canary in the coal mine, I think.

It's like the one thing will tell us how you're performing in this offense is, are you getting the ball to him, because it's all designed for him. I don't need perfection, but I need something like eight touchdowns, one pick, run a couple other touchdowns, like make good decisions with the football, don't turn it over, stop taking sacks and run the whole offense. If you could get to that point, I would have a lot of confidence. I don't need an MVP-like performance, but I need something like that. does he look like he's capable of throwing for 4,000 yards in a full season?

That's kind of what I'm looking for. In these last four games, it's not, it doesn't mean he has to average, you know, 300 yards a game. But you've, it's got to be like it's got to be the ultimate eye test. He's got to look the part and it's got to be the absolute driving force to them winning this game and kicking ass on offense, blowing a team out, you know, can you go into the Meadowlands and just whip up on the Giants 37 to 10 because they stink and they fired their coach, they can't stop anybody on defense, you know, can you show something like that and throw for 280 yards doing that? And can you put that together in the subsequent weeks after that?

Can you put something together consistently to give us the sense that this is really going in the right direction. That's the only way I'm going to feel really confident going forward. Roder says yards don't matter. Wins do. I mean, here's the thing. They kind of do, though. Like, they do. Because if we go to last year, you have your best quarterbacks in the NFL. Listen to how many guys, how many of these guys threw for. I mean, Josh Allen also ran for like, I don't know, 800 yards. Wait, hold on. Let me switch that to regular season. Yards. Okay. So, Josh Allen, even though he ran most of the time last year, still had 3,700 yards, Burrow had almost 5,000, golf had 4,600, Baker had 4,500, Darnold had 4,300, Lamar, who probably should have

won MVP, 41, Holmes 39. I mean, I don't know, man, looks like the best quarterbacks in the NFL do tend to stack up a lot of yards. And I know, I'm the person who says, hey, when you're losing, you get more yards, and it's true. You do that. Dak Prescott is a good example. But even on these winning teams, you still have 4,000 yard passers because driving success with passing is still the way to win in the NFL unless you have a total anomaly like the Philadelphia Eagles last year with Jalen Hertz and your running back goes, what do they run for 3,000 yards a team? Okay, well, if you can do that, I will shave my head on here if KOC has a team that runs for 3,000 yards. All right. I'll look like Manny except for my head's

wrinkly, actually. It had, like Shane Badiye. You remember how Shane Badiier had like wrinkles in the side of his head? So it's not a good look, but I'll do it if they run for 3,000 yards. Anyway, the point, the point just being that, you know, yeah, like if they win, if they win three out of the next four and you're thrown for 150 yards a game, I'm not going to be super confident that you could go do that for an entire season next year. Derek says if the Vikings trade for Burrow, do you think Quasi makes the trade or a new GM? Well, I mean, I guess that depends on when, how, and what it looks like at the end of this. I mean, if you got to the end of this season and you finish eight and nine, you're probably not doing a bunch of overhauling, I don't think.

But I don't know, like, who could get it done? If he's capable of getting it done, then do it. And if he's not, then get somebody else who is. I mean, if that's on the table, whoever it takes, whatever it takes to get to the end. I have not been, I have not been really, um, in favor of making that change just because they set this up to this point. But if, look, if they finish five and 12, whatever change they make is whatever change they make. Like there are consequences to actions and, you know, stuff happens. That's the leak.

So let's do this, uh, mani. And the Fanduel question of the day, if, if you all missed it was, uh, the Vikings are 6.5 point underdogs on Fanduel to Dallas. what does McCarthy have to do to beat them by a touchdown was the Fanduil question of the day. So let's pick these final four games, Manny. At least we know that McCarthy is the quarterback for the next game, and we'll see what happens after that. Do you think, as I mentioned, the Cowboys are six and a half point favorites on Fandulul? This has, let me look up what the over, under is for points for this game. Because I think that always used to expect kind of a shootout.

47 and a half. So a pretty high number. Do you think the Vikings can beat the Dallas Cowboys? I think they can. I don't think they're actually going to. I think this is going to be a tough game for them. It's on the road. I know in past weeks where I've picked the schedule,

I've kind of given the Vikings the benefit of the doubt of being able to go on the road and towards a really bad Cowboys defense. But it's a defense that's playing a little bit better. The recent winks since they went and got Quinn and Will. Williams and Kenny Clark, even though he's maybe not quite the player he once was in Green Bay. He's still a guy that's kind of been a thorn on the Viking side, historically speaking, with those two guys in the inside, I think it could potentially cause some problems for the Vikings. So I don't think it's going to be as easy for them to sort of light up this Cowboys defense.

And that team still has really good quarterback, two really good wide receivers. I'm going to give Dallas the win here. I think the Vikings will compete hard, but I'll give Dallas the win. I'm sorry. I'm distracted by laughing at Tracer XC's comment. Did Josh Allen win the Super Bowl? Well, you know, you're right. You should get rid of every quarterback who didn't win the Super Bowl.

So just have no one. I'd take them. Yeah, I think I think I've, I'd take them. It's really funny. You know, when you start, I'm sorry, I know we're doing our pick of the Vikings bit, but I just can't help myself with stuff like this because when you start thinking about other franchises. So I was, here's, here's what I was thinking about the other day.

You know what I was thinking about, I was thinking about Trevor Lawrence. And the reason I was thinking about Trevor Lawrence is, and let me, let me just pull this up real quick on Trevor Lawrence. Place for the Jacksonville Jaguars, we would all agree the Jacksonville Jaguars are a sucky franchise. They've been so bad for so long. Shout out Fred Taylor and all the other great players there. This is a guy, Trevor Lawrence, who will have a chance maybe this year to win a second playoff game.

He's going to have a chance. Like, they have a good defense. He's playing a lot better lately. He already has one playoff win. The Minnesota Vikings since the Minneapolis Miracle have how many playoff wins, Mr. Hill, since the Minneapolis Miracle. One. Correct.

So Trevor Lawrence and the Jacksonville Jaguars. Trevor Lawrence was still in college when that win happened. Right, right. So Trevor Lawrence, who was in college and becoming known as a generational prospect that he didn't turn out to be. He was drafted in 2021, which is what, five years ago. And he has a chance to have more playoff wins than you do since the, Minneapolis Miracle, and he has a chance to tie your franchise for playoff wins since Brett Farve threw it across the middle.

Trevor Lawrence and the Jaguars. I mean, I don't even know where that was going other than just, you know, you're saying, I know you're trolling, like Josh Allen was who would want him? But like, the level of ineptitude here when it comes to. actually being in big games and relevant games, it is nowhere near as hard as this franchise has made it look to win a playoff game, two playoff. If Trevor Lawrence wins too,

he will tie them for playoff wins since Tharv. Holy cow. And we're talking about, hey, if JJ McCarthy throws for 160 on Sunday, like, that'll be great. Like,

no, I don't think that that's the standard. I really don't. You know another, you know another team that has won a playoff game since, the last time the Vikings have won a playoff game. The Cleveland Browns. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah, they did. Yeah. So anyway, I don't think they're going to win in Dallas either, but I think there's a chance because I think Dallas's offense is a little overrated by some of those playing from behind statistics. And I think their defense is an atrocity.

And as long as J.J. McCarthy does not get strips Act several times by Kenny Clark. Ryan Kelly's here now, Kenny Clark. Doesn't matter if they're five and eight. They got their guy to stop Kenny Clark or Quinn and Williams or Osa Odigizua. Those guys could cause problems. Everyone else is a trash fire on Dallas, but I still think it's going to be a tough

one. Okay. And also, can I say real quick, CD Lamb practiced in full, what are we doing? What are we doing as a society where we allow CD Lamb to go play a football game after last week the concussion that he had what do we what do we do like this this is gross this needs to stop um next game after that is the uh new york football giants who are really bad at football but you know jackson dart will play i think probably if he doesn't get hurt again uh speaking of the giants daniel jones another guy who's want to playoff game oh since uh it was against the vikings

actually sure was i was there uh funny funny story I lost, I was, I lost track. There was like a timeout. Remember Kirk misses K.J. Osborne over the middle. And, which oddly was the play he took responsibility for and not the checkdown. And when I, so I'm sitting next to my friend Sam Extram. And so he misses KJ. Osborne. But then there was like a timeout.

And I kind of lost track of where they were. So he checks down. And I said to Sam, man, whole season comes down to this. next play. And Sam's like, the game's over, dude. I was like, what? He just, he just, no, he just checked down on that play. What? So, uh, yeah, Daniel Jones has won a playoff game since this regime was hired. I just don't think that it's, that's when you talk about like, should they fire this person or that person? And my, you know, My answer is, like, I don't think that's a good idea.

But also, if they lose a bunch of games here and they do, as you said, like, the Jaguars have won as many games as you. The Browns won as many playoff games as you. Like, I don't know. If they do it, then they do it. Sorry, go ahead. Vikings at Giants. We're picking the schedule here. You pick the loss against the Cowboys for them to drop to five and nine.

What happens in New York or New Jersey, I should say? I think they beat the Giants here. I think the Giants are just this talent there. and dart is, I think, showing some signs of being pretty good. They're just a ratty team, though, that just nothing they, nothing they're doing seems to make much sense right now. And this just feels like a game that the Vikings, with the talent that they have. And again, it's going to come down to McCarthy playing well and showing improvement.

But I think this is a game that that can be, that can be had much, much like what it was against Washington. The Giants are better than Washington, but not that much. better. So I think the Vikings come away with a win here. I agree. That's a team in peril. And you know, like when we're talking about this is the crazy thing is that we get out my calculator. Let me see what this is. This is the weird thing about the end of the national football league season is now I'm not very good at doing math right on the fly. But if we divide four by 17, there is 23.5% of the season remaining, which seems crazy.

right like the season's over but it's not that's almost a quarter of the season left to go still with these four games and if you go to dallas and lose and if you lose in new york you're rightfully predicting a win but if you lose in new york i mean then the whole this whole little pocket of good vibe against washington could just go flying out the window and you talk about like that's one where when those guys get in the plane and they head toward new jersey they know you better not lose this. And for the draft position, like, feel free. But I mean, in terms of, like, as an organization,

you better not collapse against the New York Giants because that team has fired everybody. There was a report, I don't know if this was a fake news or not. So let me just like, sometimes, you know, you get fake stuff, that there was some conflict with the seating on the plane that had to do with them firing someone. It's like, I don't know that I don't even know if that's true, but it sounds like it could be.

that's how funny that right that's how funny that that position is in abdul carter is just like i'm just going to sleep i don't really he's me in college like do i want to go to this class i was up till 4 a.m playing mad last night i'm just going to sleep uh so okay they get a win there they go to six and what it is six and nine oh nice uh then they will play the detroit lions at home on christmas day what happens there I think again, like I said last week, I think the Lions are going to be fighting for a playoff position here. And I think they're going to bring it and still going to be mad about losing at home to the Vikings earlier. And so I think they're going to take it to the Vikings here and win, I think pretty handily here at U.S. Bank Stadium on Christmas Day.

And that'll be unfortunate for the home crowd, but it's kind of how I see it. yeah what usually happens in a short week like that is the better football team usually just wins everybody's banged up there's no real time to game play and I think they get one practice and that's why you know Thursday night football I would love to look at this a little closer but I think that people have done research on this where essentially like the favored team usually kind of takes care of business if they're favored by X number of points like there's not as many upsets as there is like a noon game situation and if they are still alive in any way they will be scratching and clawing because they're lions you get it and biting kneecaps

yeah they and uh also if i mean based on what we saw now if j j mccarthy there's so many layers to this manny that's why the show has gone so long um if they go to new york and McCarthy is amazing and they beat Dallas and they've won like two games in row. The Christmas Day crowd might be a little more amped up for McCarthy and be like, oh, okay, like we're back on board to some extent. Against Washington, it was not a exciting atmosphere. Once they started scoring and stuff, people got into it. But at the beginning of the game for the whole like, you know, pompant circumstance for the game, which is usually, I mean, some days in the past, that game last year, week 17 against the

Green Bay Packers. That place was ready to explode. I don't think we're going to have the same feeling if this team is six and nine. It's an average win against the New York Giants that they just got the previous week. And it's been a massive disappointment. So I don't think that the edge is going to be maybe what it has been in the past. Now, here's the hardest one. So you've got them at six and ten. The hardest one is Green Bay because there's a halfway decent chance that the Green Bay Packers are playing for absolutely nothing.

and they are just vibing in Minnesota Week 18 and it's Malik Willis and, you know, just whatever practice squad players, they elevate, or there's a chance that the Green Bay Packers are frothing at the mouth in that game, desperate to win the division. I don't know which one of those scenarios going to happen. So let's just assume it's like an average football game

with some implications. I don't know, right? because we can't we can't say for sure do they win that game at home against the regular packers well and even if the packers you know have the division wrapped up maybe they're trying to win that game to because they're trying to kind of you know they've got the ties what that will come into play here but maybe they're trying to leapfrog the rams or the sea hawks for the number one seed in the NFC which would then give them you know home field advantage throughout and you know who wants to go to Lambeau Field in January when it's like 10 degrees and play an NFC championship game.

Tom Brady did pretty good with that, but I digress. Yeah, I think there's a realistic possibility that the Packers are playing for a lot here, even if they have the division wrapped up. But they might be in a position where their seating is not really going to matter, and they have the division wrapped up. And then you want to rest Micah Parsons and you want to rest, you know, Jordan Love and some of the other key players, they have. That would present an opportunity for the Vikings, but I just have a hard time believing that the Packers are just going to sleepwalk through this game. It's week 18. I think they're

going to want to finish the season with some momentum going in playoffs. That's a team that's really confident right now, feeling really good about themselves. A quarterback is playing great. Defense is awesome. Suddenly they don't want to fire the head coach anymore, which is interesting. Never should have come down to that in the first place. But anyway, that was awesome. We all knew that. We all knew. We all.

Yeah. It's just so ridiculous. And I say this as somebody who hates that team. But, yeah, I'm going to give the Packers the win here because I'm going to air on the side of they're going to have something to play for the division seating, something like that. And they'll come into U.S. Bank Stadium and take care of business. Well, I would pick the same if it has stakes. especially, I mean, especially if they're really amped up and they're going 110 miles an hour, then that could, yeah, probably be in their favor.

If you finish, what we always talk about at the end is the implications. If you finish six and 11, it is one of the biggest disappointments that we have ever seen from this team. Usually the disappointing seasons are, I mean, even think about like 2018 as you and I were in the same radio studio when I may or may not have had my head explode after Kirk Cousins suggested that it'll all be fine next year and I lost my mind. Tough times. I asked tough people do. Yeah.

Well, hey, Kirk's out there. They're leading, right? At halftime. So, Kirk's grinding through it. But if they are to go six and 11, I think whatever the Wills decide to do with the people in charge, I don't support blowing it up. I support giving them 2026 and seeing if they can.

fix it because they won 14 last year. If they won seven last year and then six this year, I'd be like, okay, this isn't working. But because they have two seasons that have been very impressive, okay, like I think that you've earned our belief that you can competently turn this around. And if you can't, then we'll have our answer. But I would also say it's six and the only teams you can beat are the Giants in Washington. I'd be like, whatever they decide to do is whatever they decide to do, and I'll probably just kind of roll with it after that. Do you feel that way? Yeah, if it were me, I probably wouldn't.

I'd be very hesitant to make a change at 6 and 11, but I would totally understand if the Wilf's just decide, no, you guys won 14 games last year, you decided to move on from Sam and put all your eggs into J.J. McCarthy's basket it and it blew up in your face, sorry, see you. We're moving on, going in a different direction. I would understand if that's the route that they go. But if it were me, I would give them, because of the history with this regime, the ability to kind of turn things around after 2023,

I would give them another year to see if that happens again, and if they can win 10, 11 games and make the playoffs. But it's, if I'm bringing them back, I'm looking at everybody and saying, you go six and eleven or seven and ten next year that's your ass you're out of here because that's that's where the pressure really i think in that situation has to really ramp up uh kFT says i think quacy's the fall guy and i think uh will deserve to be fired excellence uh is the goal well you know like i said i mean if you go if you go six and eleven i mean who

am i who am i trying to defend like that's a that is a truly terrible season they came nowhere close to your goals and you spend a lot of the ownership money on things that didn't work out if you're doing that and keeping KOC, I think what you're trying to do is, and it's so funny how this works, right? You're like, culture of collaboration. Actually, we could be have collaborated too much. Like, let's now hire, you know, a football guy or something who is going to take the reins. And I think that that's what it would really be is it has not felt like they have a general manager who has the, how do I, how do I put this to right? way who has like the authority over everybody else to say it's my call guys it had and that's what

they were aiming for the collaboration they were aiming for coaches give you the grocery list you go get the groceries i think they've done that i think a lot of the roster right now when it's healthy looks really darn good doing that it's the quarterback position that was not ready for this so i haven't been in favor of hey blow this whole thing up it doesn't work but wait a minute look at this offensive line when it's healthy look at this defensive front when it's healthy i mean what we're going to talk about like one safety position that that isn't good like they found more players redmond and you know eric wilson they went out in god and turners looked better and jackson looks really good and like oh okay

link i don't know there's a lot to work with here going forward so i don't think it's the right thing to blow that up but if you decided you know what we gave maybe the coaches a little too much power and we need somebody who's an experienced GM to come in and just take the reins and say it's my roster now and I will make the draft picks and I will go out and get the players and you guys will coach them and that's how it's going to be that would be that would be kind of the shift of like going from Zim to KOC and oftentimes teams do that so if they did that I would not blame them because I do think a lot of this was when coaches have a lot of power or what do they want, they want to win right now.

They don't, they don't think as much in terms of, like, pragmatic is a word that I've used a lot because they haven't been that methodical. They haven't been that. It's, oh, man, we need DTs. Get me some DTs. And then the GMs, well, okay, all right, we need these guys. So let's go get these veterans and so forth. But that's not a, it's like not a long term type of thinking.

It's just a, I need this position filled and I need you to go do it type of thing. if another GM came in and said, oh, you want that $21 million defensive tackle who hasn't been good in three years? I'm sorry, no, develop someone, right? A little bit, oh, you want Jeff Ok,hauta because you like him? Okay, fine, but no, actually develop

this guy that I signed for you, that I drafted for you, whoever it is. I mean, the fact that, and these aren't stars, but like a Caleb Evans played last week, and Nashon Wright's played, and Reddy Stewart is here. And like, these young corners that, brought in, it's like, well, the coach wants guys who could play for him right now. He needs

Stefan Gilmore, right? And they need a GM who says, I'm sorry, you're going to have to develop that guy. Or I'm sorry, we're not spending that money and has the credibility to do that. If that's, if that's what they decide to do, because I think their current circumstance is much more of a collaboration of let's all come together with the coaches and the general manager and work through it and then come to a decision. But the coaches took a lot of the power. when they won 14 games and looked like geniuses. So, you know, I don't know. It's a very interesting political dynamic.

Mani, we'll get you a Christmas bonus for an extra show and a half here on a Thursday. Let's go watch some Thursday night football, some cream sickles with Tampa Bay. Thanks, everybody, for indulging the very interesting slash entertaining scenario of Joe Burrow. And look, and, you know, if you didn't like this conversation, It's like eight more podcasts this week, including a hardcore breakdown of this weekend's game coming tomorrow with Andrew Kramer.

So thank you, Mr. Mani Hill, and we will catch you guys all later. Thanks, everybody. Football. Football.