Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - What did Kevin O'Connell say about JJ McCarthy's return to practice? (Part 2)

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Matthew Coller breaks down Kevin O'Connell's comments about JJ McCarthy's return to practice and what he wants to see from the young QB. Plus, he does not commit to an answer on either quarterback -- at least publicly. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This episode of Purple Insider is presented by Fandul. All right. I believe I have Murph there. What's going on, Murph? How we doing? Happy bye week. Doing great. How did you spend your buy week?

I got a little golf in. A lot of housework. A lot of, I'm glad I didn't have, I know there was a game yesterday morning. I didn't have to watch it. Oh, my God. I slept in a little bit. And then I feel like, I don't know, I thought this, a week five, week six by usually doesn't look good on the schedule. But considering what the fan base, the team, the media is all, I just feel like it was perfectly timed.

Absolutely. Mani, do we have you now? I believe so. Okay. We got you. That's great. We're like three weeks in a row, this working as well as I needed to work in order to have this here roundtable. So, mani.

It's like a baton pass. It's really funny because, you know, O'Connell was asked about what he saw from watching games. So just like he got to be like us. I'm sure he was maybe taking some more notes than I was. But at least he, you know, got to sit back and watch the football without the intensity like all of us. And he said, you know, it just really stands out to him how every game is close and every game comes down to the last play and that sort of stuff. And I almost yelled out, it stood out to me that the game stunk. It was not a good day.

Mani, it was not in this market. Not a good day. Yeah, Cincinnati Green Bay, really. And I have Red Zone, but I mean, even Reds, even like the Tampa Bay and San Francisco game wasn't great. And I would say the second half of Kansas City, Detroit wasn't even that good. Ravens Rams was bad.

Yeah. Oh, gosh. And nasty. And I mean, obviously Broncos Jets, that was a great appetizer to start the day. 13 to 11. Yeah. yuck um yeah it was it was a it was kind of a gross day and and it didn't help that it was the viking by week so you didn't have you didn't have the viking's game to kind of lean on and say like okay well

maybe this you know the vikings always typically play close exciting games with nice finishes but um yeah yesterday was disgusting so let's get back into the discussion about what kevin o'connell had to say Last week, he really focused on wanting to get McCarthy back on the practice field, wanting to get him going back to square one with a lot of different stuff. He really went into detail about the footwork and the decision making and the progressions. And he kind of said, hey, there's five out there for a reason. And I thought that that was really a bit sharp of a comment reflecting back to his first two performances, like clearly indicating that he missed a lot of opportunities. on the field. But Murph, how do you think that O'Connell framed it today? Does it lean you one way or another about whether he's going to start McCarthy? And what did you think just in general of his

commentary? Because he didn't run away from it. He didn't say, guys, I'm not answering these questions. Move on. Ask me about whether Blake Brandel's playing center. He answered all of the questions. Well, he knew it was coming. And that's fine. He said a lot. He said a lot of words. I don't know if he meant a lot of what he said. I think where we're at is, and I'm based this just on being around the block a few times, the language was, it was very noncommittal, but it was also, I'm not going to get ahead of this, but it feels like Carson Wentz is going to start, only because I think if he was that confident in where McCarthy was in his recovery, he would have laid a few more breadcrumbs to get us through

the week and he didn't necessarily do that. He kind of put it back in Tupperware and said, we'll figure it out at the end of the week. But at the end of the week, what I think is driving this and maybe isn't even talked about enough is this is a high ankle sprain, right? This is a four to six week painful, messy recovery, especially for somebody who might be mobile. He got injured a month ago tomorrow. So we're still at the very early cusp of this solid recovery period. And for all of the words he's spilt and the intention he spilled today, KOC, is still making it clear that he needs to be 100% confident in that foot so he can plant and drive and make the passes that he needs to make. He can step out of the trouble that he needs that he's been

getting into and may continue to get into, depending on where the offensive line goes. I just feel like I don't know if there's a rush to put them in there, except for the obvious political decision, which is the franchise has pushed all its chips in the table. We need to know what we have. Yes, you do, but you also have a three and two team that could, it's kind of teetering on a needle and could fall either way with a roster that expects to win. and I just don't see the urgency to get him back on the field. Now, if this was your best quarterback option going into a week 17 must win or a playoff game,

I'm not sure Kevin O'Connell would spend as much time describing the strength and the foot and the driving and the mechanics that it would take to get him back on the field, the fact that it's still week six slash seven. He's just not going to put himself in a box. I respect him for that, but it's it does kind of like. lead it just it the less certainty we have the more pressure that builds to come up with something definitive i'm not sure we're even going to have that friday and we can get into this more too he seemed a little vague or at least not too descriptive of of wence's left shoulder injury kind of dismissing it as well it's the non throwing shoulder and he's going to be sore and this

and that uh you know if he gets driven into the ground on one sack are are we looking at rushing mccarthy out there when he wasn't ready to start or are we looking at back to prosmer i'm just saying these are things that need to be discussed all week it's only monday yeah the left shoulder does matter uh it's uh it's the old fallen shoulder a lot of times if you get driven into the ground by uh anthony bar um that it that was that was actually the collarbone i think it was with wence i just wanted to be like man what did you think you were going to do on that play did you think you were going to just like run over those guys uh but manny you're your your feeling from kevin

O'Connell and the way that he has kind of laid out, I think he's done a really clear job of laying out what he needs to see from J.J. McCarthy and he won't know if he sees it or not until the end of the week. Yeah, I mean, because this, it sounds like this is the first week that McCarthy is really going to participate in a lot of like football, footbally things, you know, since preparing for that Atlanta game and really with everything that went on and O'Connell kind of talked about that today about how you know he's only practiced basically one time since you know preparing for that atlanta game you know that you only had the one practice that week so he hasn't really gotten a lot of work you know physical work of he going out there and doing a lot

of football footbally type of things and i think if you're going to put him back out there I think you need to get a real strong sense of where he's at first before you ultimately make that decision. And he's coming off of an injury, an injury that can affect how he's able to play the position. He is a mobile guy. He does like to run around a little bit. If he can't do that and he's starting for the first time in a month,

you know, what are you really going to get out of him and are you going to get, you know, the best kind of performance that you need out of him? obviously like you know to your point if this were a sort of a dire straits type of situation where it's it's week 18 and they're going for a playoff spot and he gives them the best chance to win whether he's 100% or not I would imagine he's going to be playing but this the way o'cono kind of laid it out without actually saying it it sounds like it's going to be cars and when starting against the eagles on Sunday and and I'm okay with that and you know what

with the next game after that with the chargers being on a short week, we might not see J.J. McCarthy until, you know, November 2nd at Detroit, you know, just because of the way the schedule is playing out and everything, too, which I think is okay if they decide to do it that way. If they decide to say, you know what, that's a lot, like, think about, you just mentioned the date. What is it, November, what, when they play? November 2nd. November 2nd. So it's October 13th right now. And you could give yourself several weeks, including that mini buy for J.J. McCarthy to continue to get 100% healthy and also lock in with some of this stuff that they're asking him to do because right now he just got

healthy, as you mentioned, just got back to participating. So he's going to have to have what, a couple of days working one-on-one with O'Connell last week in the building. And then this week of practice with an extra day today, which is nice for him, but it didn't look like it was going to be the most intense practice. They weren't out there in pads like it was the middle of August or something today. So a light practice on Monday, full practice, Wednesday, Thursday, and then Friday is not like a super heavy day practice wise. I mean, that really gives him two full days and a little bit of this and that as opposed to several more weeks to be fully ready. And then you could also assess where your team is at because if you go two and oh and whence is

awesome, then maybe you're saying, like, actually look around the league, you might be good. And this is what I want to play this game with you guys. I want to play this what happens then games. So I'll throw you guys a scenario and then we can talk about what happens then. Let's start with that one. Let's start with this scenario that Carson Wentz plays really well and they go two and oh in these next two games. Murph, what happens then?

Do they just stay with Carson until the wheels fall off and have Jay, J. McCarthy ready to go? Not based on everything I've heard in recent times and certainly in the last six to eight months or certainly not in the last 18 months. Carson Wentz was signed August 24th as a safety valve because Sam Howell couldn't win the job that they thought he should win in May. That still doesn't really affect where J.J. McCarthy is in his development, right? So it's been difficult because even the, you know, before O'Connell mentioned it today, it didn't dawn on me that, yes, he did have that game against Chicago, then he went and had his first child. So he really didn't have much time after the Chicago game leading up to the Atlanta game. Then he gets hurt. We're still only looking at a snapshot of two professional games, two real games right now.

So I still don't know if it's, you don't know what you have in him and you need to know what you have in him. I find it difficult to believe that Wentz is going to perform any better than he did these previous three games, and these previous three games were just fine. That's what he was there for. You know, look, if he goes off for $350, $400 against his former team, we know what that storyline is going to be Sunday, taking down the Super Bowl champs if that actually happens. I mean, it does build momentum and it does build pressure for a difficult decision. But based on everything I know about where this organization's been the last 18 months slash three years, it's J.J. McCarthy's job. If he's healthy enough to return, he's going to do it. If he looks awful in the first couple of weeks he's doing it and the Vikings are hanging on at five and two or six and three, then you may have to make a difficult decision that returns the ball to whence. I don't want to get too far ahead on that. We know where this could.

head. But all indications are it's still J.J. McCarthy's job to lose. And I don't know if he's lost it based on his first two performances. I'm not saying he can't lose it on his next two. And you have Wentz there as the safety valve. But again, these are incremental decisions that have to be made based on performances that occur, based on circumstances on the ground that we don't know. There are known knowns and there are known. unknowns and we don't know all the unknowns or knowns. I don't know. I'm kind of blasting through my Bush era defense secretary, you know, sayings. But I just, I don't, I feel like we're all, we're all trying to solve the big problem and the big equation and the big question. And there's

still a lot of evidence that needs to come into play before we can really do that. So, Manny, if Wence plays well the next two games and you were in KOC's seat, would you still say, look, McCarthy's our starting quarterback. We're playing the Lions at Detroit. He's going to start. Off we go. I feel confident in what I've seen in practice. He's taken major steps back to where I want him to be. He's QB1. Let's go. Or would you stick with Carson Wentz? I think if Wenz plays well and they win the next. two games and they're five and two. I think it's really going to depend on how well Carson Wentz looks.

I mean, if he looks like, if he plays the way he's played these last three games that he started, then I think you go back to McCarthy because I think what we've seen from Wentz has been very solid, very, you know, very good for the most part. Hasn't really cost them. Hasn't been awful, hasn't been great. I think he's been good enough, which is what you expect out of a backup quarterback. I think at that point, even if you win these two games

and he plays well enough for you to win, I think you still go back to McCarthy because that's ultimately the plan. If McCarthy is ready at that point, too, and you're getting enough look at him and practice in those weeks leading up to that game against the Lions, then I think you go to McCarthy.

Now, the other part of this is if Carson wins somehow in these next two games looks like he did in 2017 when he was an MVP candidate before he got hurt, then maybe you're having a different conversation because if he's playing red hot like that, how do you just go,

and you're winning, how do you go away from that? But I think that is sort of high-end, you know, possible, but not very likely scenario in that case. So I think if he's average, if he's solid and you win the two games, I think whether he's, well, really even winning the two games at that point doesn't really

matter. If he's just solid and you split the next two games or whatever, I think you go back to McCarthy. See, I think this is the biggest fear of playing Carson Wentz this week is that Philadelphia is not at 100 percent and they just had their one of their better pass rushers just decide, I don't want to play football anymore, which is a real new one because he was playing well. Zadarius Smith was doing a good job for Philadelphia in his role and just was like, yeah, no, I'm good. I'm good. I think this smells like a veteran who smells the rod in that locker room saying I don't want anymore. Doesn't it feel that way? I know, right, like, why, wait, I've got millions and millions of dollars and 80-something career sacks. Like, I'm going to go fishing, uh, rather than deal

with this. And it does feel like Philadelphia is kind of on the verge of a full melt. And if Carson Wentz takes advantage of that, say he starts. and he throws for 210, two touchdowns, no picks, sack three times, and they win 21 to 14. I, and then they go out and beat the Chargers, even if it's a grind fest, I don't see how you can go into that locker room as KOC and be like, actually, guys, he's not your quarterback anymore,

even though we've won five out of six or whatever. I mean, that's just not, I just don't know how you do that, especially there's a very important guy in this mix, which is he has just pumped the football to just, Jefferson time and time again. And if Jefferson is averaging nine catches a game and they win back to back games and they are five and two and they're right at the top going into a game with Detroit who very well could be five and two when they face them and it's for the division lead, you're not going to bench Carson Wentz at that point, right? The locker room would probably go

crazy if he was doing enough to win because they all believe, hey, all the quarterback has to do is just enough. And that's what Wentz is doing. Let me throw another scenario at you, which is the total opposite, which is, so we all know, the easiest scenario is, if they play McCarthy and he plays well, he's the quarterback, we move on, right? Like, and then off we go into the rest of the season. But how about if McCarthy plays and plays solidly, what is the ceiling for this team? Like, what happens then in terms of how competitive they can be if we see Murph, McCarthy come in and plays okay, but they win those two games? Where would you feel like your confidence level would be that they were a legitimate contender at that point?

Well, if they win both these games and then they play solidly, they're going to be five and two, which says they're a contender. They may not look the most aesthetically pleasing contender, but they are a contender, and you're developing your quarterback, and you're developing your franchise quarterback while relying on playmakers that seem to come up at the right times to make the plays that need to be made. And if you have an offense that is at least productive, if not dominant. And if it's secure in the football, then you can win games 21 to 14 and feel okay about that.

And then maybe as we go along in the season, McCarthy's gaining confidence, his technique, his relationship with his receivers, the confidence in the locker room is kind of growing here and there. Then maybe it ticks up here, where then there's a game that he does have to do what he did in Chicago and come back with three touchdowns in the fourth quarter. Maybe there is a moment where he has to step up and you provide him that moment.

And either he does or he doesn't. But I don't feel like the fate of the team has to rest on the quarterback. I don't think going into this season we felt that way because of the way the roster was constructed, there was this sense that if McCarthy can grow into the role and not lose games, but be there to supplement what all of his playmakers on his side of the ball, all of the defensive playmakers. If they could just get through that while he's developing, it would accumulate over time.

And I think by November and December, as he's playing tougher games, he's going to develop a little bit of a thicker skin. And you have a sense that coming into these late games, maybe against Detroit and Green Bay at the end of the season, that he won't feel as overwhelmed. as he might have against Atlanta. But again, we only have the two. We have seven out of eight quarters that are ugly. We have a great fourth quarter in Chicago. And we have a lot of, you know, speculation, which has been the theme for the last 18 months. You know, you mentioned how do you go

into that locker room if Wentz plays well and you're five and two and you suddenly say, hey, it's, it's J.J. McCarthy's team again. There's a flip side to that too, which is if you don't actually have the confidence to make that decision, whether or not you lose guys in the locker room. I mean, Quasi, the front office, KOC, they are all invested in the long term. The guys in the locker room aren't, and I've talked about this tension in the past. They are looking to win yesterday. But as franchise stewards, the damage you could do to yourself, your credibility, and also McCarthy long term, if you just say, let's just give it to the hot guy that we think can take us there. We also have a pretty good sample size of Carson

Wences performances in recent years that doesn't say he's going to sustain this. You mentioned the 2017 level that he was playing at. I don't think he's ever going to get back to that. Now, I could be proven wrong, but I don't see that. So my point is you may have to ride this out with McCarthy because politically the decision you make has ramifications well beyond 2025, both in terms of job security and also McCarthy's confidence going forward rather than satisfying some veterans in the locker room who want to win now with the question mark that is Carson Wentz. So just going back to the scenario with McCarthy,

if he were to play just okay or maybe even not that great and win the games, then I think what you'd be hoping for is him turning a corner with the more experience. If you can find a way early, then it will eventually start to click in as you go because now, like, Detroit's defense isn't scary, neither is Chicago, neither is Baltimore. Like, now we're looking out a little bit and going, you know, those teams don't look the same as they once did. And before I get to your response, Manny, I shot you 99 says, so we're going to be in a never-ending cycle of recycling veteran quarterbacks. Well, you already have been. It is the Vikings. Right.

And just keep McCarthy. Story of the franchise, man. Keep McCarthy in the background. too afraid to play him. No, I don't think that that's, I don't think that that's what we're talking about here. I think what we're talking about is, even if McCarthy were to not play another snap this entire season,

he will turn the disgusting old age of 23 next season. I think what you'd be talking about if Wentz continued to play well and they stuck with him and McCarthy learned behind the scenes is handling this the way that they actually wanted to the entire time and weren't given a chance to work with him behind the scenes because of his injury last year. It does not end his career if he has to develop some more. And that's kind of been my point about all the quarterbacks who are first-round busts who are now playing great for other teams is.

And Baker Mayfield and Daniel Jones and these teams just didn't have a lot of patience or were incompetent and set those guys up to fail. So, man, he just, how good can they be, though, is the question. If you saw McCarthy win two games, it's not mind-blowing, it's not terrible, keeps the train on the track, say that they win them the same way that they did against Cleveland. Yeah, I mean, I think especially when you look at these next handful, again, at least these next four games where, you know,

early in the season, we were looking at these four games like, oh my God, this is like murderers' role, this is going to be the really hardest part of their schedule. And now you look at what's happening with the Eagles. They seem to be in a little bit of disarray. The chargers are banged up. Detroit, you know, it at least looks like you'll be able to move the ball on them a little bit and give yourself a chance. Baltimore is a mess right now.

So this is an opportunity, I think, for if J.J. McCarthy does get into these games, you know, let's say Detroit and Baltimore, there's an opportunity for him to play very solidly for you. And then, you know, he gains confidence. He gets better and better because then you're playing Chicago at home. Green Bay will be tough. Seattle will be tough. You know, Washington will be tough, but you'll have that game at home. So you're looking at scenarios where, you know,

and then you got Dallas and the Giants. You're looking at scenarios and matchups where he could go out and play well. But the only way he's going to be able to do that is if he plays. That's the only time you're really going to get a chance to see him really grow and develop. And they can work with him behind the scenes and everything because we've seen that with other quarterbacks in the past

where, you know, they don't start, we don't see them at all for two, maybe three seasons. And then, you know, when they're finally ready to go, they sort of hit the ground running. So I don't, I don't know if there's really a wrong way to go with this. If he plays well enough and gives you a chance, I'm kind of looking at, I think on the high end, 10 wins, a 10 and 7 type of season, 11 and 6, maybe if some things go your way. But the other part of this, though, I think, is you've got guys on defense coming back and getting healthy as well. Getting Blake Cashman back is absolutely massive. It is, I don't think you can put a price on getting him back in the lineup.

Van Ginkle, you know, that's going to be a little bit tricky that you certainly use him back to. But who knows with that. But getting Cashman back, I think is really going to help things on defense. And I think it's going to give them a better chance to really compete in a lot of these games. I think that they could be, by the time you actually arrive at that moment in the playoffs, if he has played well in these next two games, then you could be talking about, hey, you're five and two and make one, one jump to the next level and look around and go, you're there with everybody else in the NFC.

Let me, what I want to get into is around the league because everybody got a chance to just chill out and watch football this weekend. And we've just got so many interesting. developments in the NFL. So I want to talk about that in just a moment. Marauder says Wents has been throwing turnover worthy plays two to three times a game. What I love about having statistics is we actually have this number for you on the turnover worthy plays. So right now, Carson Wence, in terms of turnover worthy play percentage, has committed a turnover worthy play on 3.1% of his dropbacks, which is 23rd out of 39, right next to Matthew Stafford, Bryce,

young Daniel Jones, Jackson DART, Jordan Love, Mack Jones, and just behind Jared Gough. So there are other quality starting quarterbacks committing turnover worthy plays at a similar rate. That's 23rd out of 39. 39th is J.J. McCarthy among quarterbacks who have had at least 50 dropbacks. That's the trouble. That's the trouble. That J.J. McCarthy committed turnover worthy plays on 6.6% of his dropbacks in his first

two games. You cannot win that way. That's the same rate of Jake Browning. So that's what Kevin O'Connell is talking about is whence he's clearly pointed to in his commentary. Wence has played the way he's wanted him to play. It has not been perfect by no means. It hasn't been flawlessly accurate. He doesn't have a great BFF grade. I wouldn't give him one either. But it's been enough to win two out of three. And there's been the fundamental stuff, the footwork, the timing on the throws. The decision making, I think, has been mostly good for Carson Wentz. It's really been the sacks hanging on to the ball way too long, although we could give Pittsburgh a little bit of credit, by the way, being a four and one football team and having mostly a great defense.

So let's go there, by the way. The Fandul question of the day today is your biggest surprises through six weeks. And I mentioned that the Bucks being minus 1400 to make the playoffs, just running away with that division and Indianapolis minus 520. I mean, those are majorly favored to make the playoffs, teams that you would have been like, I don't really know. Or you would have thought the Colts were horrible going into this season. But I'll throw this out to you guys for the biggest surprise for me is the AFC North. It has been so consistent, competitive, even years where Burroughs been hurt.

That team's been in it. The Browns made the playoffs just, what, two years ago. And Mike Tomlin is still at the top and still fighting that fight. And I got to, I got to give this to Aaron Rogers. And it is far from over. But Aaron Rogers, I don't think he's played great this year, but he hasn't caused any problems. And as long as Aaron Rogers doesn't cause any problems, that defense looks awesome for them. Their pass rush is sick.

And Jalen Ramsey's starting to come together a little bit for them. they're going to make the playoffs going away, it looks like, with how bad that division is. So, Murph, that's been my biggest shock of the year, good or bad in the NFL. How about you? Well, I'll piggyback off that and stay within that division. I'm really shocked the Baltimore Ravens are one in five and apparently can't play defense. Yeah. I mean, that is in their DNA.

And to have them be a Super Bowl, perennial Super Bowl contender with the reigning MVP, a quarterback, and is sort of always, you expect Baltimore to be there in January. It's going to be a, you know, a grind it out. I just figured it would be the Bills, the Ravens, and maybe the Chiefs, you know, just kind of knife-fighting each other to the end. And Baltimore looks lost. They look lost. Obviously, they're without Jackson.

I don't know how much longer he's going to be out. It sounds like he might be back by November 9th at U.S. Bank Stadium. But having watched the Baltimore Ravens from their inception, just because, be a constant defensive problem to becoming a turnover prone defensive liability that really seems lost under John Harbaugh, a guy that's been there, what, 15 years, is really startling. Now, all that being said, because the division is such a mess, they may be able to recover from this.

I doubt it, but they may be able to at least make it a fight because other than Pittsburgh, no one else seems to be doing anything there. And then on the flip side of that, I would say the buck. And O'Conneers being five and one feels like, and Baker Mayfield being in the MVP conversation, not just because of how he's playing, because he's earned it. But because when you, if you're chewed up and spit out by Cleveland and end up with four teams, despite all of the, the endorsements and sort of the superstar in that you had, maybe a bit before you earned it, I, these are kind of the stories that you don't see a lot of comebacks to. And this has been impressive to watch him single-handedly win games with his legs and his arms and his improvisation and just sort of his gaming skills. And we saw it a bit last year in that season opener against the Vikings. You know, there was a little bit of that.

And I just felt like it just feels like there's a shifting a bit. There always is a shifting. But I'd say those are the two biggest surprises. The fact that the Ravens are at the bottom at one in five and the Buccaneers. look like the class of the NFC. Yeah, and Baker Mayfield, he's reminded me of Steve Young right now. I mean, he really looks like he's really playing like that. Like there was a stat that he's got, I think, nine first downs on third down and long this

year where he's scrambled for first downs. He's been super accurate. It doesn't even matter who's played wide receiver offensive line. He's just been making plays. And it is funny because it's a comeback and underdog story. yet he was the number one draft pick in the NFL. And it's kind of like Darnold where it's like this is who the guy was supposed to be. It just took a lot longer and the right circumstance for him to eventually get there.

Your biggest surprise, Manny. I got a couple piggybacking off of what Merv said about Baltimore. I mean, it's just to see the identity of the history of the Baltimore Ravens has been great defense. and to see their defense, you know, they only gave up 17 points to the Rams yesterday, but I mean, it didn't matter. They, you know, was Cooper Rush playing quarterback

and they only scored three points, so it didn't matter. But to see the Baltimore Ravens defense just get torched week in and week out is just unbelievable to me. And I think unbelievable to a lot of people. I'm going to go a different route. You know, I think Tampa Bay is a big surprise

to Indianapolis as well as they play, but Daniel Jones in particular. I'm a little bit surprised with, you know, the New England Patriots are four and two. Yeah. Just like quietly four and two, and they went into Buffalo and won last week and won a sort of a hard-fought game there.

And they're kind of sitting right there in the conversation in that division. I still think Buffalo obviously is still the class of that division. But, you know, New England is kind of pesky. And they've been competing in every game that they've been in, even the games that they, the two games that they lost, the start of the year against the Raiders and then at home against Pittsburgh. But Drake May has made some real strides.

He looks a lot better in year two. Better coaching it looks like, too, with Mike Ravel stepping in there. I think it really kind of shows Mike Ravel's a pretty damn good coach. But, yeah, New England is a team that's kind of like, oh, kind of raised the eyebrows, like, oh, they're four and two, and they were awful last year. So, yeah, Patriots are kind of standing. out to me too. So I am a little bit shocked by that just because we saw them in joint practices and I was talking to all the Patriots reporters. They're like, look, Drake May looks pretty good, but this

team stinks. Like roster wise, like he's got nothing to work with and, you know, Stefan Diggs is old and that kind of thing. And May is making those guys look good. I mean, just, I mean, receivers that you've never really thought much about are now making plays. And I totally agree. Mike Vrable is good at this. don't, I mean, you don't win as much as he did with Tennessee with rosters that were up and down and Ryan Tanna Hill as your quarterback without being a good head coach. So I guess I'm, I am like mildly shocked, but not as surprised just because knowing who their coach is and the pedigree of the quarterback. I'm going to throw something out there that might be an overreaction to a half of football, but what if Buffalo's not that great? So like right now on Fandul, Buffalo is the Super Bowl favorite

at plus 600. And I want to talk about some of the other favorites, but they are losing 21-27 to the Atlanta Falcons. They lost last week to the New England Patriots. They actually had some moments against the New Orleans Saints. Spencer Rattler has been playing better lately, but they had some moments against the New Orleans Saints where they were in a little bit of trouble in that game.

And they have just not been impressive at any real point so far this season. And just looking at the first half of this game against Atlanta, maybe J.J. McCarthy is at home going, hey, that happened to me, too. But Josh Allen is five for 12 with 98 yards. I mean, his numbers have just not been that good. They have bad receivers. It's just bad. Josh Palmer is their top receiver.

Keon Coleman looks like a bust to me. Elijah Moore is still in the National Football League. Like Curtis Samuel, where, where's that guy been for years? So you're saying New England's. going to win that division. I mean what so that would be like for as far as compared to what we thought that would be a huge shock. But I just feel like Buffalo is not what they were last year when they kind of got away with not having the the wide receiving core. So let me give you Murph the Super Bowl favorites right now. And just, uh, just tell me what you think. So the bills are the Super Bowl favorite.

I mean, I think that's fair. But I mean, they just have not been that impressive. The next two at plus 700, so very close, are the Packers and the Chiefs, then the Lions, Eagles, Rams, chargers after that. So the Packers, Murph, are second in the Super Bowl odds. I mean, are we wowed by the Packers? Because I definitely have not been these last couple of weeks. They kind of look like the same Packers that they've been for three years with Jordan Love to me. I think they're a very good team. I don't think they've reached great. yet. I still feel like there's some shifting sands going on here in both conferences, right? We, we're not, it's mid-October, so we're seeing some of the warts show up on certain

teams. We're seeing some of the same issues that may have been plaguing teams before, but we're also seeing other teams kind of step into the void and kind of create this whole new kind of level of expectation in a variety of divisions. Bottom line, I still think Green Bay, right now is the second best team in the division behind the Lions, but I don't view them as formidable as I did maybe early in this, or, you know, before the season, mainly because of what you said. I think there are some, there are some moments where Love looks like he's a two and a half, three quarter kind of guy, or the defense is a two and a half, three quarter kind of a team. There hasn't been, other than that week one win against Detroit, I'm not sure there's been a

complete performance by Green Bay yet. And the other thing, you know, I wasn't paying that much attention to the Chiefs before last night, mainly because it's the Chiefs, you know, wake me in December. They'll be there. But with Rashid Rice coming back a little bit and seeing how Mahomes look pretty comfortable yesterday, picking apart a pretty good elite team, I feel like the Chiefs are still going to be there at the end. And I think so much of that scar tissue and championship medal sort of keeps them in the conversation.

It's easy to forget about them and kind of do this elevator game where we see this team rising. We see this team maybe falling. We see this team right. It still feels like Buffalo and Kansas City are the class of the AFC. Buffalo may not be a 14-win dominant team, but again, they're learning a lot of hard lessons in the regular season and also in the playoffs. they know what it takes. Green Bay hasn't been tested quite like Kansas City, and I know I'm toggling between conferences,

but I'm trying to talk about the big picture of being an elite team, winning, coming close to winning, expecting to win. Green Bay is still kind of knocking on that door a little bit. I don't think everybody's expected them because they've kind of been a little brother to Detroit the last couple of years. So I'm still waiting to see really what Green Bay is exactly. about and whether they are going to be the Vikings biggest competition in the division or the Lions.

How about many of the Lions? What you saw from them last night. Yeah, they do lose to Kansas City looking very Kansas City-like. And when Mahomes is rolling like that, I don't know how many games he's ever lost where he has 130 quarterback rating at the end of the night. I'm going to guess that's pretty few. But at the same time, the Lions wins just don't. look all that shining. I mean, they've beat Cleveland. They've beat Cincinnati. They've beat

Baltimore. Those are three of the worst teams in the NFL. You should beat them. They beat Chicago coming off of that crushing loss to the Vikings. We're going to get to Chicago in a minute by the way they're winning right now. But I mean, are, are you feeling like they are, if they get the secondary healthy, still really good? Maybe we were too high on them after a couple of mediocre wins. Like, where are we with Detroit? I still think that they are, you know, sort of in that upper echelon, certainly in the NFC. I think that they are still certainly one of the favorites and one of the front runners to go on a run and get to the Super Bowl because of, you know, the personnel that they still have. They still have Jared Goff who's still playing well.

I know he wasn't great last night, but, you know, he's still been playing at a pretty good level this year. They still have the weapons on offense, you know, offensive lines. there's some question marks there particularly on the interior side and on defense there's some question marks there too but I think Dan Campbell man just I think he's another guy that's kind of like

Mike Rabel where he just you just look at him and you're just like that guy knows what he's doing and it's not going to be right right exactly and you know it's not always going to look pretty it's not always going to be glamorous

but that's one of those teams that, you know, they haven't won the championship yet, but they still, they'd seem to have some championship DNA within, within that locker room, within that head coach. And what kind of stood out to me was Brian Branch does what he did to Juju after the game last night. And Dan Campbell goes to the podium after the game and basically calls him out and says, no, that's not okay. We don't do that here. And that to me, I think, even though he's singling out his only player and calling out his own player. I think what that shows is a lot of, you know, humility from the head coach and understanding like, hey, I love Brian Branch and I need him to be

at the top of his game. So what he did after that game last night is not acceptable. This is, that's not the kind of team we want to be. We want to be a team that wins and wins and loses with class because there's a bigger goal that we have. And I think that kind of represents a team that I think is going to be there in the end in the NFC, NFC championship game type of scenario. So it hasn't looked pretty for the lions and there's some question marks certainly on the roster, but I think ultimately they're going to be there near the end.

I also think that the Lions can be buyers at the deadline and improve in some of the areas where they've been struggling, especially a second pass rusher. By the way, just as I was talking about how Buffaloes look so flawed, they score touchdown. And I wouldn't be shocked if they win this game. I just mean that for a team that's supposed to, to be a juggernaut, the runaway favorite, they've shown a lot more weakness than I expected so far for them this year. And just to touch on Chicago, it's a little hard to do this in the

middle of these games, because it's 13 to 7 Chicago right now. It could end 42.13 or something, depending on how stuff goes. But Caleb Williams is looking pretty good. And I don't mean he's looking amazing. But he is looking way better than he's. he looked last year and even in the first week against the Vikings where it looked like the same Caleb Williams and then it wasn't good the second week but recently it's starting to come together. Did we write off Chicago too quickly, Murph? Because if, I mean, if they win this game against Jaden Daniels against Washington, then all of a sudden Chicago is part of this conversation and we're talking about Ben Johnson as potentially like is putting his name into that

coach of the year, putting his name into a quarterback whisper. We've just seen, and right now, and again, middle of the game, Caleb Williams is nine for 14 with 80 yards. He just looks more quarterback to me this year by far than he looked last year. And that's what we thought when Johnson took the job in January. We thought, well, now Chicago's going to be relevant. We're going to have a juggernaut division. I mean, it didn't come together quickly in the first couple of weeks. Um, I, think what's interesting is there's I want to I don't want to compare McCarthy and Williams because there are different skill sets and body types and whatnot. But what you're looking at is Caleb

Williams now growing into being an NFL veteran. And that's what McCarthy was robbed of last year. Even if he didn't play, he lost out on that opportunity to be on the field, to be in the practice huddles, to be running the scout teams, to do all of the things that when you build yourself up and you kind of build that experience and that DNA and that scar tissue, Williams has had a lot of it. And he had a lot of it last year. Matrygo Fluse failed him and the Bears failed him. But they got the right guy and Ben Johnson to kind of mold a quarterback. And it's not going to happen overnight, but I do see the bears being relevant here this season. I mean, I wasn't writing them off after the last couple of years as typical bears. I was

more thinking this is going to be a marathon in the NFC North. We're not sure exactly what the Vikings are going to become because of their quarterback situation. We're not exactly sure where the bears are going to ascend to, but I don't think the bears are going to be that, you know, five and 12 team. I think they're going to be a factor. And watching him progress kind of gives you a blueprint of what maybe McCarthy can do from an experience standpoint, getting the reps, getting the starts, having the failures, having the eight-sac games, the three interception games, you don't want to see him lose his head coach.

But I do think Williams is benefiting from so much of the adversity that he had gone through. And I just feel like, again, we're in this, we've always been in this win now. We're always been in this, he's a 22-year-old first round top 10 pick. He should be winning now mode. You referenced Steve Young earlier. I mean, he's the prototype. of a guy that was an afterthought and had to wait behind a Hall of Famer in San Francisco

before putting together his own Hall of Fame career. I'm not saying McCarthy or Williams should have to wait to their late 20s, but what I'm saying is it does take time for these things to organically play out and unspool. It's not as simple as looking at a schedule and saying McCarthy should do well here, he should do well there, the Vikings should do well here,

they should do well there. You know, schedule prognosticators in May typically shouldn't have jobs come October because so much has happened. So many scenarios have played out on and off the field with teams that you can't predict. You can kind of troubleshoot for, but until it really happens, you're not sure where you're at. And that's why not only do they play the games, but it's also why we endure the narrative buildup through the week, because nothing is what it seems in May or July or September. it all kind of comes down to what you've endured and what's gotten you to January.

And that's why it's kind of fascinating. Let's talk about Manny, the Eagles here as the Vikings get prepared to play them. Right now on Fanduel, they are plus 1,100 as far as the Super Bowl goes. And that would be the fifth best odds. So they have not decided, hey, Philadelphia's season is over. They're toast. They're cooked. Good night.

I want to ask two questions of you about Philadelphia. one is just like where do you think that they're at I mean are you reacting strongly to what you saw the last two weeks or maybe saying hey of this team is still pretty darn good and the other question is are they where do they rank in terms of teams that Vikings fans hate the most that just you know with Philadelphia their fans and all that stuff what happened in 2017 like start start with that part like do you think that they have elevated to the top of that list other than of course green bay is always going to be number one but where does philly rank after green bay i think they're up there um i think they're up there in you know saints conversation too with sort of the the hatred of the saints that goes back to the 2009 nfc title game and maybe that's just more so less about the saints and more sure more so about Sean Payton for some reason.

But, you know, I think with, when you look at the history between the two teams and particularly the playoff history between the two teams, the Eagles have always kind of been a thorn in the Viking side when it comes to the postseason. You talked about 2017, the Shalacking in Philadelphia and all the experience that the Vikings fans had when they went out there to Lincoln Financial Field. You know, there's the playoff game in 2008 at the Metrodome,

where DeVarce Jackson throws the pick six to Asante Samuel and gets kind of like trucked into the end zone by whoever was blocking for Asante Samuel. The long touchdown on the screen passed to Brian Westbrook. And even I go back to 2004. Yeah, after the, after they beat the Packers at Lambo, they went to Philly. Yeah, they went to Philly and they lost that game. And I think it was Jeremiah Trotter had an interception of Dante in that game. There was a situation in the end zone where Freddie Mitchell,

who was just like the fifth wide receiver on the team, catches a touchdown because I think it was like Willie Offord and maybe Corey Chavis or somebody, like they ran into each other and ruined an opportunity to get an interception in the end zone. And then the ball just like landed right into Freddie Mitchell's lap, essentially for a touchdown and that happens you're just like oh come on like what's going on here um but yeah i i think there's that just those sort of playoff games that have had those moments that stood out i think is why the eagles have kind of been a thorn in the side of the vikings and viking fans and

there's been regular season games too where it's been tough to win out there but um i think just with the postseason history between the two teams. I think that's where the egos kind of go up there is like that. One of those top nemesis of the Vikings. Hey, just a little public service announcement, the level of institutional knowledge, anybody that's listening just got from Manny Hill. He's referencing Fred Mitchell and Corey Chavis on blown coverage from 20 years ago.

Oh, yeah. You can only get that on purple insider.com. That is very true. Murph, what do you think of the current Eagles, though, this game? Should we expect the Vikings to win? The Vikings are not starting the week favored, but should we expect the Vikings to win this game? I've never expected the Vikings to win this game. As of today, I think they do have a better chance, too, just because there's a lot of moving parts

and a lot of tension that you're reading about coming out of Philadelphia, obviously because of their performances, but also, you know, A.J. Brown and the offense just doesn't seem to be doing much. Sequin Barclay is nowhere near the pace and the dominance that he had last year in his 2,000-yard season, which is that, and you wrote about this two-collar, that doesn't happen. There's always a falloff after a 2,000-yard season. Whether it's teams adjusting, whether it's the wear and tear on the back, whether it's the Eagles trying to, you know, not rely on him as much as they had to last year because their passing game was terrible last year. It's still terrible.

So I'm not sure where I think the Eagles are kind of in a, I would, disarray might be a little bit harsh, but they do seem kind of on that tipping point, but they were last year as well. I mean, there was a lot of this discussion early in the year last year. Who are they? What are they trying to be? Why can't they produce more? Why is Hertz struggling in the passing game? And next thing, you know, they just handed the ball to Barclay and they win the Super Bowl.

So I'm not saying that's the blueprint, but this is a team with a lot of, a lot of scar tissue, a lot of battle tested, you know, they're not going to panic in mid-October. And I do feel like they are vulnerable, though. And this is an opportunity for the Vikings to maybe not just signature win, which would benefit them hugely just because of the opponent, the timing. and as they are trying to come off that long European trip and the buy and kind of reset their schedule, I'm not exactly sure they're going to come out and do it yet. I've got to kind of see where the week goes and how each team is responding to the situations that are in. But I feel a lot better today than I would have Friday or three weeks ago or six months ago when the

schedule came out. Yeah, I think when we talk about a team coming off the Super Bowl, we always just project them to be exactly the same. And don't factor how much they lost from that team is what happens every year with the Super Bowl team is that everybody else comes in and goes, ooh, all of your free agents look very shiny, will pay them way more money than you will and then you lose them. Like Milton Williams getting $26 million,

the Philadelphia Eagles could not keep that guy. And now he's playing very well for the New England Patriots, but they couldn't keep that guy at 26 mil. So they have to go, ah, well, I guess we'll bring in this guy who was kind of a bus with another team, but maybe we can make it. And, you know, usually if you win the Super Bowl, you stay completely healthy, which doesn't always carry over as we found out from year to year.

So you have a banged up team, a team that also has set the bar so high for themselves the last couple years that any time they lose, it's like a big national story that they lost the game where a lot of other teams, oh, well, they lose a game. Like if Washington loses to Chicago, it'll probably be like, well, you know, that's a pretty bad loss for them. but it's not going to be wall-to-wall on ESPN. What is going on with this team like it is with the Super Bowl champs?

I did want to answer one comment. Christopher said, why do you keep saying Wence can't get better? You don't think learning the offense will lead to better play. It makes zero sense unless you're a Wence hater. So I have checked off the boxes of hating both quarterbacks so far tonight, which is always means I guess I'm doing my job of speaking. When did the objective criticism become eating?

Well, I mean, look, Look, now here's, so here's the thing about quarterbacks, right? All of our evidence would say Carson Wentz can't get better. Like his age, his recent performance, he's been on six teams and six years. The last time that he started, he was benched for Taylor Heineke. And the year before that, he went nine and eight with a very good Indianapolis Colts team. But I will- Nobody's making any of this up.

But I will say that. Like, them's the facts, my friend. But I will say that when Case Keenham won a couple of his silly cartoony games, early in 2017. I felt the same way about putting Teddy Ridgwater back in. Like, yeah, I mean, you know, it's just kind of a backup quarterback

who's getting away with it and not through those horrible interceptions against Washington that year. And Zimmer went crazy. He had a very middling performance against Green Bay, but one because Aaron Rogers got hit by Anthony Barr and ended that game, but he wasn't playing well.

And then all of a sudden, he started to play great and won game after game. put up big numbers and you're like, I don't know, man. And then never did anything ever again. Like sometimes quarterbacks can be the most unpredictable thing. We know this. Rich Gannon showing up with the Raiders at 30 something years old and then winning, well, winning MVP and reaching a Super Bowl.

Like, look, it's very hard to predict. So I shouldn't say that there's no chance that Carson Wentz couldn't have the offense click and play great and be awesome and compete for the Super Bowl because it's happened. and it happens here seemingly all the time. But there isn't much logic behind that. Other than to say the guy's got a big arm and he's been pretty decent, but it's not like we have a big body of evidence to say that. So usually the ceiling is already kind of set by the time your Carson Wentz's age.

But you never know, my friend. And 31 teams decided that they didn't need Carson Wentz by August. But that's what we love about the National Football League, Mr. Murph, is that a bunch of teams decided even this off season that they did not need Sam Darnold. And he's playing great. They decided last off season that Darnold was worth $10 million. $10 million.

And he ends up borderline MVP last year and playing great this year. And the league valued him in $10 million. How much did Daniel Jones get? Hardly anything. Go play for the Colts. He's leading. Like, we just don't know. So is it possible that you're right that he could get better if they keep playing him?

Yes, it is. And then they are in a real world of confusion. If Wentz keeps playing well and McCarthy is sitting there watching and then you're going, what is this team once again, part 1,000 for the Minnesota Vikings? Brian Murphy, Mani Hill. Every Monday, we do this here, Roundtable. Mani picks the schedule on Thursday night. We will definitely be looking forward to that and the build up here to Vikings and Eagles.

So fellas, great stuff. Appreciate all of your time. and enjoy the Monday night doubleheader. Hopefully you got two televisions. Maybe watch on the iPad and the TV, something like that. I have two TVs in my living room. I'm not surprised. I am totally that guy.

That does not surprise me at all. So gentlemen, thank you so much. And we will talk to you again next Monday. All right. Football. Football. And thanks everybody for watching slash listening. And make sure you answer that Fandul question of the day

of your biggest surprise. this year so far in the NFL if you're rewatching this down in the comments. So thanks again and we'll catch you all later. Football.