Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - What do former Texans Greenard, Cashman and Griffin bring to the Vikings? A Texans writer tells us

Episode Date: March 22, 2024

Matthew Coller is joined by Texans writer Rivers McCown to discuss the Vikings signings of Jonathan Greenard and Blake Cashman. Also they look into the success Houston had with a rookie QB in 2023. https://surfshark.deals/PURPLEINSIDER Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here and joining me, my favorite Texans writer, Rivers McCown, who's formerly of Football Outsiders, when Football Outsiders existed, NBC Sports Edge, RiversMcCown.com, where he mused for many write about the wonderful Houston Texans that are the darling of the NFL ball during this offseason. And I would have brought you on to talk ball with you any time because you are one of my favorite football writers. But it just so happens that there is this intersection now between the Minnesota Vikings and the Houston Texans that none of us saw coming. So first of all, how are we feeling about the Houston Texans, man? To go into the playoffs last year, C.J. Stroud, after climbing through miles and miles of not good football to emerge like Shawshank Redemption. It's got to be fun covering the Texans now. They pick-sixed Joe Flacco twice in that first playoff game.

And the second time I threw my kid up in the air, my kid is now eight months old. Back then you can do the math, like four or five months old. And he cried. He cried really hard. And that was very funny. It's something I'm going to rub in his face when he grows up for sure. Yeah, I mean, this has been wild.

It's interesting to watch kind of how that Texans writer's sphere has grown as I've been kind of more detached doing that stuff this year. And, yeah, C.J. Stroud is, I mean, even when we had Deshaun Watson, that was a different kind of interesting, a different kind of amazing when he was still somebody you wanted to feel good about. But CJ just, he's got so much awareness of everything. It's preternatural. It's really fun. Yeah. And I think also just from a Vikings perspective, if I'm tying it in, it sort of shows you how hard it is for the world to figure out which quarterbacks are good. Because now when we have a little sample size of one year, every

single person in the world would pick CJ Stroud number one overall. And he ends up falling into the Texans lap. Not that he wasn't a great prospect to go number two, but the gap was so crazy between him and Bryce Young last year. And one of the things that I found funny was the rumors that the Texans ownership wanted to draft Stroud and that they were sort of forcing their hand to draft CJ Stroud. And there was the same story in Carolina, but that blew up, but not so much in Houston that that was a rumor because Stroud became so good. And I want to know from you just watching him and then we'll get into these Vikings connections. Like what, what is it with the guy? I mean, what, what is it that in your

mind made him so special so fast because as the Vikings embark on potentially drafting a quarterback this this is like the dream scenario is that your quarterback comes in and there's no debate about it after about six weeks that this guy is the franchise quarterback going forward so I would say what makes him special um what makes him special is the first couple of weeks of the season he was getting sacked a lot he was getting he had like i think eight sacks against the colts or something like that in week two he had five against the ravens in week one and you know everybody's like oh well you know it's another rebuilding season it's an offensive line that uh you know it's still coming together and we don't

really have all the tools yet and and then cj shroud between week two and week three was like you know what sax i don't really need that anymore i'm just gonna eliminate that from my life uh you know just i just thought about it and it's going to happen and you know we already had the kind of you know great ability to be accurate to every side of the field we already had kind of some vision that we could see working with him where okay you know he's going to get to his third read he's going to get to his fourth read he's already figured out you know the safety play game. And then he just decided, no, no, no more sacks. And then from there, it was just a rocket ship up. And it did seem like Bobby Slowick specifically set him up for success.

And that's another thing that I've been thinking about a lot with these young quarterbacks. Not that I think Stroud would have struggled really anywhere um maybe except for carolina because their team was just so bad the offense didn't fit a young quarterback they had no receivers no line so i'm being patient with bryce young uh by the way because i think that they were in a very tough spot but are we talking about here are we talking about i'm feeling it yeah i know how dare i say they had no receivers when they had uh adam thielen i apologize to the folks in detroit lakes minnesota where he's from but uh let's be honest i mean that was somebody the vikings moved on from to bring in jordan addison

so in comparison you know nico collins tank dell steps in right away uh robert woods a quality player dalton schultz becomes a quality player. But I think more than anything, that the play action stuff, the bootleg stuff, it just seemed like they gave him a lot to work with in year one, which I think is really, really important from the offensive staff to understand where that quarterback is in bringing him along. The most interesting thing about Bobby Sloik is even from, you know, week one, you know, week one and two especially, but then as Stroud got better too, you started to hear the chorus. People like, oh, yeah, they run the ball way too much, man.

They should just pass it. And, you know, it's clear that, you know, there are a lot of fans that just watch the box scores. They just, you know, they see a couple of quarters and they make their judgment on it. And I think Slowik was very intentional in the way that even though the run game wasn't working, he kind of stuck with it and built on it. And all of a sudden you had Xavier Hutchinson taking sweeps or, you know, ender rounds. You had John Mechie kind of being extension of a running game on a screenplay.

And it doesn't sound like a lot, but after watching what the Texans did with Pep Hamilton and Tim Kelly the last two years, it was a big breath of fresh air. And, you know, Bobby got, what was it, three or four head coach interviews. I'm just very glad that he decided to stay because this is, you know, this kind of sets up and feels like a pretty special infrastructure already. And now it's just kind of finding that finishing piece. Well, and I think the Vikings in signing Aaron Jones understand that if you're going to have success with young quarterbacks, you do have to build off the run game that I know we sound anti-analytical in saying it, Rivers, you're a football outsiders guy.

And I've always been a fan of the analytics. But I think that what we can't ignore is how much easier your life is as a quarterback when you can get to second and four, or when you can set up with play action. I thought Stroud working off of play action was just great. And like, look, Shanahan and Kubiak stuff's going to work forever, man. We're going to be 87 years old doing podcasts. I was like, Rivers, they're still running the boots. Like, I just feel like it's always going to work. And it's something that Kevin O'Connell, I think, has to understand as well,

is how to build that in. So I'm very excited to see where this team goes. But now they're in a position to do what every team dreams to do. You have your quarterback, and now you start to spend some of that owner's money. And one of the ways they did it was by signing Daniil Hunter. So let's start there and we'll run through all the now connections between the Vikings and Texans. The decision to let Jonathan Grenard go and sign Daniil Hunter from a Houston perspective.

What did you think of that? I was not surprised to let Jon Grenard walk. I felt like that was been, you know, kind of whispered about in the tunnels and whatnot. Like he's a very, he turned in a very good season, but he's not Nick Casario's ideal body type, first of all. And second of all, I think the way his body is, he may be maxed out already as far as what he can provide. You're not going to get like an extra step from him. I'm not saying he's bad he's clearly very good he'd had a great season but i don't think there's like a next step for him i think kind of what the vikings were hoping out of their signing is okay

well he's going to be a passable number one edge rusher maybe on a great team he's a number two and that's still worth a lot of money for however many years it is. Whereas the Texans, I think Nick Casario definitely values not having guys on long-term contracts if he can avoid it. He's very not-for-long about his contract decisions. And even though they gave out a huge amount of guaranteed money to Hunter, I mean, Daniel Hunter can hit the streets in two years and they're fine. So I think that's kind of more of a deal type that he prefers. And I think that's kind of interesting how the two flipped and kind of where it reveals about where these two teams are right now.

Right. And the Texans are very much into win now and win for the entire rookie quarterback contract for CJ Stroud and then figure it all out later. But I think the Vikings were in a position where if you were signing an older Daniel Hunter to a two-year contract, that's almost completely guaranteed that would not have really fit exactly with their timeline. I think that a four-year deal for Jonathan Grenard was probably better for them

that takes him through the second half of his prime or just coming into his prime and all the way through around the age 30 or maybe beyond that. But on the point about Grenard, I'm curious about his kind of journey to getting to this point because when you pull up the old pro football reference page, you're going to find an eight sack season from a couple years ago then not so much in 2022 and more looked more like kind of a situational player on paper until last year where he emerges as this you know sack artist for the texans and i think if there's one concern in the Vikings signing him, it's all right. Is it a one

year wonder kind of thing? And I think the underlying data says maybe because his pass rush win rate is not incredible. His pressure numbers are good, but they're not incredible. It really seemed that when he got pressure, he finished sacks and from watching, you know, the highlight reel of him from last year, he does have good quickness and so forth. But I don't think that this is a player that's on the level of someone like Daniil Hunter. No, I think that's a good way to think about it for sure. And, you know, 2020 comes in, the Bill O'Brien Texans, you know, get destroyed. Romeo Cornell's here. He's not a babysitter. He wants guys who

can play right away. And so he had no chance. Rookies were verboten to that whole regime. 21, he was actually probably the Texans' biggest bright spot. He had the eights actually brought up, yeah. But also just on a down-to-down basis, he played really well, played the run really well. And when you're surrounded by the rest of the 2021 Texans, wow, you look amazing, don't you? 22, he gets hurt a little bit, gets dinged up. And then 23 comes back, has this big season, which, you know, you bring up a good point that a lot of the sacks, you know,

that come up against quarterbacks that aren't that great. We got lot we got we got some little level sacks in here folks for sure but uh i do think he can at least you know he's he's he's improved enough over these two years to where you can say okay i think this is a guy who uh improved his repertoire who has enough agility skill uh you know, brainpower to win these, these, these fights on the line of scrimmage. And I think, you know, he is going to be a solid contributor for a while. Yeah. I mean, I think when Brian Flores is looking for players, we're going to find him getting high IQ types of guys who can do multiple

things if he needs them to, but is often looking for the outside linebacker type. And you mentioned that, that body type and somebody like Flores who likes to move people around and show lots of different types of looks. I think having somebody who isn't necessarily like the traditional four, three D end can work for them. But I was just struck immediately by his personality,

by how outgoing he is. I mean, you just get, you get right away that the energy from Jonathan Grenard. And I think that if you're bringing in somebody whose reputation is that they're on the Ascension and also a high IQ player, that just sounds like it would be a fit for Brian Flores. Yeah.

And here's another text in the sky interview guy interviewed by Brian Flores could have gone a totally different way in 2020, 2022 there. Yeah. I do think Grenard is, you know, he, by all accounts,

a good, a great guy, a good locker room guy. Everybody here was pretty impressed by him. And it's just kind of about the business of which would you rather have a very good pass rusher for four years or an elite pass rusher for two and hope that works out for you. Yeah. And I think from both teams perspective, it just made the most sense for these guys. And it almost seems like a trade and you wouldn't

trade necessarily Hunter straight up for Grenard, but you would maybe trade Hunter for two players, including Blake Cashman. Now, Blake Cashman is a guy that we're very familiar with in Minnesota. Somebody who has, you know, developed over the years in the NFL after being a fifth round pick came from the university of Minnesota, but last year was his big breakout year in a similar way to Jonathan Bernard. And this is both a thing that you sort of love to see a developmental player who becomes, you know, a, a guest borderline star for the Texans. Uh, but also the same sort of thing where, all right, is this a one-year thing or is he now a really good NFL player? And they paid him like he's now a really good NFL player.

So what did you think? Where do you stand on that? I was more on the wonder, wonder camp, but it's not because I think he's a bad player. I think it's just that Cashman has had a hard time staying healthy, staying on the field. Even last year, he missed a couple of games to a hammy, I think it was.

And he's clearly fast enough to be a three-down linebacker. He's smart. He made a lot of plays on balls this year when they put him in good positions to do so, unlike in maybe past regimes where he wasn't in good positions to do so. But, you know, you look at what happened there, and I was like, yeah, I totally get why the Vikings would sign him. They think that they can keep him healthy.

Then they could win that bet for sure. For the Texans, I mean, if you're Nick Casario, you're like, I just generated a starting linebacker out of nothing, and it cost me, you know, nothing to let him walk, and maybe I got a comp pick out of it. So I got it for him for their perspective as well. And they moved on and got, uh, I'll share for, for his position.

So, you know, it seems like, uh, with Cashman that there's some versatility there. I think now I don't know how much D'Amico Ryan's liked to use guys in the same way that Brian Flores did. Like Brian Flores moved his linebackers all over the place. The Vikings actually had a hybrid defensive player, which you never actually see. You hear a lot about, but you don't usually see. And they were able to do that with Josh Metellus. And when I was looking at just, you know, Blake Cashman's numbers and it seemed like he thrived in kind of every area. Like he was good at coverage coverage he was good at rushing the passer if they asked him to do it and that's another thing that I just think goes well and is really important for the Vikings defense and they really did have

to rush the passer a lot especially in the middle of the season when Willie Anderson was hurt like the the Texans didn't have an upper echelon guy they kind of had to generate a lot of rush and that kind of swayed the overall numbers, I think, away from the way Ryans would like to play, which is more straight up and play coverage and disguise it and all that. So, yeah, I think Cashman, I mean, there's definitely nothing wrong with how he played. I wouldn't call him, like, you know, a big banger in the trenches

or anything, but he can definitely handle it, and it's just kind of a bet on his health at this point. Like that was what concerned me. Just this was only the one year where he was like really healthy. So, you know, if you want to play special teams though, Nick Casario always finds the special teams linebackers. Folks, have you ever heard of test driving a phone network i did not make this up it is an actual thing and us cellular is letting you test drive their network for free for 30 days

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Terms apply. Awards based on open signal, independent data. Visit uscellular.com for details. Well, that's how the Vikings have found most of their safeties. So I know that story quite well. Now, there's one more guy I want to ask you about, which is Shaq Griffin. And when I first mentioned to you off the air, I was like, oh yeah, the Vikings got a former Texas Shaq Griffin.

They're like Shaq Griffin. He was on the team. And I noticed that he was waived in the middle of the season by the Texans and his numbers, PFF numbers, which for corners can be, you know, a little up and down, maybe inconsistent. They seem fine. They seem fine with Houston over his career. They seem fine. He's been a starter in the past. What happened there with the Texans?

Yeah, he was just playing as a backup mainly. And Derek Stingwood got hurt with a hamstring for about six to eight weeks. He stepped in and started played you know i wouldn't say he played well but he played about as you'd expect a backup to play there's no he wasn't he wasn't a guy who was like here's a target on my chest please throw at me every time and that's really all you kind of hope for when you get a veteran backup so i mean i was pleased with how i played the texans were like, okay, Stingley's healthy. We're going to let you go because we think you can find work elsewhere because they weren't going to play him anymore because he's, you know, didn't fit whatever roster construction they were doing at the time.

I think it was about special teams probably. And then he went to Carolina for the rest of the year, and the Texans brought Stingley back, and Stingley played really well on the stretch. And that was yet another thing to be excited about in a world where as a Texans fan, I have to be excited about a lot. Yeah, I know. Right. When Derek Stingley hitting is fifth, sixth on the list of things to get excited about Texans football. You know, you're doing pretty well for yourself. Griffin's numbers, though, are I mean, with the Texans and overall actually for last season pretty solid he allowed an 82 quarterback

rating into his coverage you know only 63 completion percentage but i don't think this is any sort of like pure answer for the vikings this is more of depth one year six million dollar contract is just kind of a guy to bring in to solidify their unit a little bit more. But he has not been a starter in quite some time. I mean, really not since 2021 with Jacksonville where he was okay. And then 2022 only played 300-something snaps. So even though we have been campaigning for the Vikings to get a corner, and they did here in Shaq Griffin, I don't think it's really like an answer. Um, so there's, there's all the hot takes that people

need about Shaq Griffin joining the Vikings as the, uh, smaller signings start to tumble in, but I need to know, I need to know your take on the Vikings and what they're doing here because another Vikings Texans connection is this trade where the Texans move back, the Vikings move up to get the 23rd overall pick. I think we all know where this train is going for the Vikings, that they're going to try to trade up to the top of the draft. So obviously the Texans' perspective was, sure, we'll take your 2025 second-round draft pick. There was probably a Jimmy Johnson draft chart where this looked good for

them and they decided to say yes, but give, give me your opinion from afar on the Vikings making this move with the Texans with likely the idea to move up. I mean, in theory you get the right quarterback. Yeah. I mean,

that's great. You, you should have two times and you get, you know, I don't know who's, who, who's a, who's great. You trade up two times and you get, you know, I don't know. Who's a recent bust? Oh, maybe Bryce Young. Yeah, maybe that guy.

If you trade up twice and get him, that's not quite as good then. So, I mean, I totally understand it for the Vikings. You know, Kirk Cousins gone. You take your swings where you can get them, and you've got to live with the results. So I think as an organization, you know, that becomes priority one, one, one, a, one B, one C, et cetera. And yeah, I mean, you got to do it. You just got to hope that you land in the right spot here. Yeah, I know. And that's, what's so difficult. Um, but I think that the way that they have set this up is when we were talking about all the things analysts talk about, and also knowing that by the time they get to the NFL,

how different it is and how different they can be as a player. C.J. Stroud, you go back and read every draft analysis thing, oh, he's not a playmaker. He's a pocket quarterback. He's not a playmaker. And then you watch him throw an off-platform, making some crazy throws and crazy plays that, platform, you know, making, making some crazy throws and crazy plays that honestly, you didn't see a whole lot from him in college outside of

that one game in Georgia. And then instantly that happens. So I try not to go too far into the weeds with saying, Oh, I love this quarterback way more than that quarterback. Cause here's his strengths and weaknesses and data but there's also this part of me that wants more information about every guy and and to try to figure out whether they're going to make it or not so i i don't know how you kind of balance that going into the stroud thing but i i kind of struggle with how much value do i want to put on even what i saw on tv and my observations that i'm making about that player i I think Josh Allen really broke a lot of brains, mine included with that,

because you come into this and you have all this analytical data. That's like, Oh, this guy is absolutely like a clown. We could draft somebody from Washington state and he'd be better than this. What are we doing here with this Wyoming guy who can't throw any accuracy? And then all of a sudden he's the, you know, just becomes a cyborg. You can throw everything downfield 70 yards on a dot and the accuracy works out.

And you're like, oh, well, I guess that's what they were thinking. They were just, yeah, a little projection there. So, yeah, it's – with Stroud in particular, like last year I had him above Bryce Young. I was very happy that that pick worked out the way it was before it happened. And I kind of leaned more on, okay, so down and down, sure. But what are my upper echelon traits here? What am I banking on? And I thought that Stroud, even if he didn't develop the way that he did, if all the Ohio State sack criticisms were true,

if he couldn't move in the pocket, can he still have something to fall back on? Yeah, he has got that accuracy. That accuracy was great. It was probably the best I'd seen in a couple years out of somebody coming out so you know you kind of have to look at it in probability buckets like if this guy's poor is he you know a washout where you don't want anything to do with them or is he like kirk cousinsousins? Is he Derek Carr, somebody like that, where you at least get somewhere? And yeah, I think that's the way I approach these quarterbacks now is more based on the probability buckets and the Vikings have

some interesting buckets to aim for now. No, they most certainly do. I also think of it as what does the guy do exceptionally well? And this is where my struggle comes in with JJ McCarthy. When you ask people about McCarthy and you're like, tell me the thing that he does super, super well. And they will say, well, the way his mind works. I'm like, oh, okay. Well, that's really hard to project to the NFL because how your mind works in college is going to have to be a hell of a lot faster when it comes to the NFL. When you tell me about Drake May and I watch him, it's very easy to spot the superpower. It's the cannon. It's like, oh, there it is. Okay. He just whipped that ball 25 yards down the field on a dig route and hit the guy right on the money. So that's what

I'm looking for. And I think with Patrick Mahomes and Josh Allen, that is the instructive part, which is what is your cheat code? What is it that makes you potentially special? And then you have to fix the other stuff. And that's on you. Like if Patrick Mahomes didn't fix his footwork, he wouldn't have been good or at least this good. And if Josh Allen didn't fix his accuracy, he wouldn't have been either. And a lot of that comes down to, does the guy have the work ethic, the heart, the dedication, the want to, how do you know that? I think that McCarthy is probably the one that you could say most clearly has been on a path since high school to be an NFL quarterback and is going to put in the work and so forth. But is he ever going to develop a skill where you go, all right, this guy can't be denied. You know, it's, it's the fourth quarter or whatever. You got to have somebody go win you a

football game. Can he not be denied? Cause that is what held up Kirk cousins is that he never had that. And Alex Smith never had that and you know those sort of quarterbacks that only take you so far so what is what is your feeling on this draft class by the way like how are you viewing that whole thing well yeah I think I think if you if the Vikings do get wind up trading up they're going to have a choice between McCarthy or May and I'm with you on that I think May is probably the better selection there I understand kind of where they built McCarthy like I like I try to follow people who even if I don't agree with them I'm like okay where are they coming from with this guy and I think what what what really worries me about it is you kind of get some of the same Bryce Young isms in

there like oh well you know he was scrambled really far to make this play, and this was a big play in this game. I'm like, okay, how's that going to work in the NFL when the guys are much faster and much bigger, the pockets are much tighter, and also when you do escape, you better get it out in a hurry or else you're going to go down in a hurry too. So, yeah, the McCarthy thing worries me quite a bit. But also, as with the Allen thing, I try to approach it with, okay,

is there a chance that I am wrong? Absolutely. I don't pay the same level of attention to these guys that NFL GMs do. I don't know their personality scouting reports, all that stuff. I don't know his S2 scores. Ooh, ooh, very topical. And yeah, yeah. I'm open to being wrong,

but I definitely would see May as a better prospect than McCarthy. Or his fake leaked S2 scores. We don't really know exactly what happened there. Everybody just lighting up to make the S2 people look bad as if we knew who they were for the last five years or something. You know, by the way, with that, and they had a bunch of excuses and stuff for that happening. After they themselves touted that test as we'll find the great quarterbacks with our S2 test. And then when it doesn't hit on something, it was like, uh, fake and wrong. And we flagged it. And we have got a lot of excuses, but really Mr. Uh, S2 test man, nothing is ever going to tell us

with a hundred percent certainty who's going to work out in the NFL. And I used to call it draft nihilism. And now I, maybe I should call it like draft humility is just to be able to admit that. And that's the same thing with McCarthy is that throughout this entire thing, I've brought up a lot of concerns that I have, but you could also bring up a lot of concerns with every quarterback who's become good all the way through. And I guess I just have to say, I'm going to lean on who they think is the guy that they're going to take. I mean, if they're trading up to four, which this hasn't happened yet. So I don't know if that's where they're going. If they trade up to four, that means they trust McCarthy enough to be their franchise quarterback. That means they've seen

something that their staff has seen something that they have talked to him, that they have an understanding of what he can learn and how fast he can come along that I just don't have. So I can have my questions, but if they take them, how could I ever be against it knowing the history of this and how difficult it is to pick out which guys are going to work? Yeah, it's really weird especially when you have people in your front office who you don't actually trust but that's that's coming from the text and stuff like okay yeah ross blacklock in the second round who thought that was a good idea and now i'm supposed to trust him to pick a quarterback like that sort of thing and yeah davis mills did not work out very well nico collins didn't look like he'd be working out very well and then it becomes apparent to me before this year's draft that the texans would

prefer to have bryce young over cj shroud if they had the choice. Sometimes it's just about being lucky. Just, you know, you pick the right guy at the right time. That person is more than whatever the accumulation of your data is. And it's funny to think about because in a way we all kind of live lives where we're like i can do this one thing that would be the best for me or i can put it off and do some bullshit like we all are faced with that every day in some form maybe it's even as simple as i can go to sleep and get an extra two hours and be ready for tomorrow where i can have this candy bar and you never know who's going to pick what or when that's going to turn. And if the NFL understood everything to that level, picking quarterbacks would be easy.

But that's why they pay all these coaches and GMs so much money is to make sure that they got the best chance of hitting that pick. Folks, if you don't know what a VPN is, you might actually need one and not even realize it. If you already know the positives, you also might not be using the right product. In either case, you want to check out Surfshark. VPNs keep your information safe and anyone who tries to track what you're doing online will not be able to do so if you are using Surfshark. IP addresses, what you're searching, what games you're playing, or what shows you're streaming will belong to you and you only. Plus, if you use a VPN, you can virtually travel the world from the

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That is surf shark dot deals slash purple insider. Yeah. And I'm not sure if I am completely following the analogy, but when people, when quarterbacks come into a new environment though, it's so much different that how do you know how they're going to handle it? And you really can't know that. And you could take a guy that you think is going to be really, really great with the way that he

handles it. And then immediately starts to melt. Like I would have, I mean, you know, Kenny Pickett was never good enough. That's just kind of a reality. But I guess I wouldn't have thought that Kenny Pickett, the minute they traded for Russell Wilson would have at least by reports sort of like demanded out and thrown the fit or whatever. And like, Kenny Pickett, really? I would have thought that guy would have been well grounded. And I'll tell you like a story that's not exactly related, but still pro sports. There was a WNBA draft pick who came from one of the smallest universities.

It was in Buffalo. And she didn't make her team right away, which happens all the time. They have very few teams. And so, you know, a lot of times players get cut and they're brought back when someone gets injured. And this player went on the internet and threw an absolute hissy fit acting like she had been the biggest superstar in the league. You're like, I would have never expected that from some small school type of player who should have been thankful to be there. But the minute she sort of got a taste of attention, WNBA draft pick changed. And that

can happen with anybody in the NFL. And that's where, you know, someone like CJ Stroud, what I really love about CJ Stroud that has come about, I think to the public more, but maybe he was always this way. This guy is 22 going on 34. I mean, it just, he's comes across as so incredibly calm and mature. And he was on like college game day talking with those guys. And, you know, they're always trying to get people to joke and say, you know, silly stuff that'll go viral, whatever. And, and he just, he was just so calm talking through that, breaking down games, like he had prepared and everything. I was like, man, every time I see this guy, press conferences, interviews, he just has such incredible maturity. You don't know that that's

going to be somebody when they come out of college. And that's, what's really amazed me about him. Yeah. I was really drawn, especially by when Nate Tice got to interview him at Superbowl and go over those three or four plays or whatever it was. And just like all the things he's looking at all the, all the, the, the pre-snap recognition that comes from all the work that you put in before that and that's kind of what i was trying to get at you know bring up candy bars and stuff like you got to trust these guys it's it's one thing where you know what you want to elevate on your on your draft board like okay this guy can sit down at the board drop the play and tell you everything

about it that's great is he actually going to do that in the nfl now that you've seen that he can you know draw it up that's an open question that's totally it could go either way and is he going to know enough about the traits of the guys he's playing that could go either way it's really you know the texans tried to create this like culture thing from 21 and 22 where they're talking about, OK, we need to make sure everybody's working their hardest, working their best every hour of every day. But you can't watch people 24-7. You don't know what CJ Stroud does when he goes home. You don't know what Davis Mills does when he goes home. And that's kind of also what builds in how good you become. Yeah, and Kirk Cousins has talked about this before, of just how much you have to live 365 being a quarterback. It's not just a position.

It's not just a job. It's an entire existence. And it's an entire lifestyle that you have to live. And if you're not willing to completely buy into that, then you're going to struggle. And I do think that tying this back into the Vikings, if McCarthy's their guy, he is the one I think you'd be most confident that that is him. Like it just strikes me as being that guy, like as someone who has wanted to go to IMG Academy or something and has kind of come up through this and he's gotten better and better as he's gone along at Michigan. And if you could get along with Jim Harbaugh really well, then I think you've got to be an extreme football guy. And so I think if he's living and breathing that sort of quarterback existence, that he's got a good chance to elevate beyond what I think is actually there because it is about resolving the touch on the fastball for him.

It is about, you know, I think getting the ball out sometimes a little bit quicker than he did or at least on time on like comeback routes and stuff like that. So there's a lot of details to be worked out, but he just strikes me as that guy. That doesn't mean he will be, but I think that if you're a team and you sit down with him and you listen to him talk, he really sort of exudes.

I'm like that quarterback type of guy. It doesn't guarantee anything. It's just, if I'm trying to make that case for McCarthy, I think he presents that extremely well. And that's one of the things that teams could buy into him. Yeah. I think if he does get picked high, if he does get picked in the top 10, for sure, we'll get some, some articles all around that. And I'm not even sure that it actually matters, You know, like to some extent, when you character study and then you build narrative, they just become one and the same almost.

Like if three years from now, you know, he takes a meditation trip and decides, you know what, I'm going to become Jim McMahon. Like anything can happen in the NFL. Anybody you study character- wise can become a different person with one or two changes. And sometimes things just random things happen. John Metchie got cancer, you know,

or leukemia, I should say. And yeah, like he could have been, you know, one of the best receivers in that class. I don't think we'll ever know anymore. Like it's, it all becomes a little bit random at some point well i mean we know that here teddy bridgewater and uh the knee situation just as he's ascending yeah to be that

texans vikings uh intersections there uh i wanted some teddy so bad in 2014 and they were on the route. And that was the thing about Teddy is that he came across sort of that way, like that leadership and how he handled himself was his, one of his top traits. And that all came to fruition very quickly and became one of his best things. And, you know,

there's also a gosh, there's so many pitfalls and there's so many unpredictable things like Teddy Bridgewater connected with that locker room super well. And even though the coaches weren't necessarily the best at the time, sort of fought through that and, you know, connected with Mike Zimmer as a head coach, you just don't know how those personalities are going to work out. The other thing with McCarthy on the other side of the coin is that Drake May has been punched in the face in college because his team is bad. And so he's had to battle and he's had to fight. Even Caleb Williams, you could

say has been through it and has already started to feel the NFL style criticism where JJ McCarthy has never lost. And if you, you start your career two and six or something like welcome to the NFL, my friend, where you can get your tail or whooped in this league that has never happened to him before when his team, when his team's in the national championship, he's just handing off and winning the game. And it's like, the guy's always won. So how will he deal with failure? If he doesn't win the job out of training camp, how will he deal with that? Like there's all these questions that have to be answered that I think makes it fascinating, but also frustrating because I want to have a take. I want your take. I want everybody's take, but we all have to admit at the end of the day that we're not really quite

sure. But you know what I am sure of Rivers is that the Vikings hired Josh McCown. All right, let's go. Your cousin, Josh McCown, you look just like him. Not actually my cousin, but we'll go with it. No relation whatsoever. And you look absolutely nothing like him. And I would suggest that you might be a tad slower, less athletic. If people have seen the Josh McCown playing basketball highlights, oh my gosh. What an athlete.

I don't have a jean jacket either. No, and you don't do this with your hair. you don't have hair that you could do this with no not at all but uh for years we have joked around that you're a journeyman quarterback because of Luke and Josh McCown and you have such a backup quarterback name what a great moment for the Vikings to hire Josh McCown. And I actually think we should mention one time Houston Texans head coach candidate. Josh McCown is what we should mention as well. So I feel you are obligated, even if you have absolutely no opinion on this whatsoever, since he was a Texan, since you are distantly somehow related to him, I'm sure your opinion on the Vikings hiring Josh McCown.

He also played for the Texans for half a season. Yeah, he did. I want to make sure to throw that in there because Jack Easterby tried to make him the head coach based on partially that half season of him sitting there. So, yeah, my opinion on Josh McCown. I think Josh McCown seems like a bright guy from afar I you know I don't know deeply what he believes in I don't know kind of you know his coaching style or anything because I didn't watch him coach here he coached in Carolina last year right so I mean I think he definitely deserves a chance to be a QB coach and grow from that. And yeah, other than that, I don't have deep hot takes about this.

I just think, you know, it's a guy who you're hoping develops into even more. And, you know, he's definitely got the tools to become more than he was last year. I think you did well with that because there's no way you could have an opinion on the Vikings hiring Josh McCown. And I would never ask you if that hadn't been a long time joke with us, but it is cool though. I think it does. It does help somebody who's been through what he's been through, who has probably worked with, I don't know, a dozen young quarterbacks at this point of all different kinds throughout his

career. And that was a major part of his value at the same time. He was in Carolina. So nobody's a miracle worker, I guess. But Rivers, I'm really glad that we could get together, man. I know that you are on daddy duty these days. So your NFL writing is a little bit less. But your child will grow. Your NFL writing will come back. And you know that I'm a huge fan of having you on the show and of your writing as well.

So you deserve to write about good quarterback play, and I'm looking forward to more of that in the future. So thanks for coming on, man. I'm glad we could get together. We also need to bring up, before I go, Texans-Vikings connections, Sage Rosenfels. That's awesome. Sage Rosenfels, good friend of mine, great guy,

one of the best journeyman quarterbacks ever. Sage Rosenfels. They did on Sage Rosenfels. good friend of mine, great guy, one of the best journeyman quarterbacks ever, Sage Rosenfels. I did on Sage Rosenfels. That's all that matters. Yeah, Brad Farr's backup, 2009. Yep. So the connections run ever so mildly deep. Thanks, Rivers.

Thanks a lot.