Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - What do stats, tape reveal about JJ McCarthy's game vs. Bears (Part 2)

Episode Date: November 18, 2025

Matthew Coller breaks down what he saw on tape and in the numbers about JJ McCarthy's rough day and where they go from here. The Purple Insider podcast is brought to you by FanDuel. Also, check out our sponsor HIMS at https://hims.com/purpleinsider Hosted by Simplecast, an AdsWizz company. See https://pcm.adswizz.com for information about our collection and use of personal data for advertising.

This episode of Purple Insider is presented by Fandul. And now to the round table. Good evening, Mr. Manning Hill. What is going on, my friend? How are you? I am pretty good. How about you? Oh, you know, it's been a day.

Brian Murphy, how are we, sir? Gentlemen, always a pleasure. Let's begin with what I was just talking about. about with J.J. McCarthy, and I kind of haven't, yeah, I know, I haven't, a little bit over the question about the timeline. I think at four and six, you could pretty clearly say that you whiffed on the idea that he could come in and win games right away. I am seeing a lot of goalpost movers and I am not okay with that. Like, I am not that person who's going to say, well, this year was always about developing McCarthy. The hell it was.

the hell it was after 14 wins last year and after them calling him the franchise quarterback and all that sort of stuff the things we've seen behind the scenes are the reason we believe in moving on from mccarthy no way is anybody get to say this year was just about developing mccarthy they were supposed to win and we know that uh but it should we be manny looking at this and saying all right, well, yes, you're not going to win. But had you brought back Darnold, had you signed Aaron Rogers, had you gotten Daniel Jones and didn't give him opportunities to play and develop, would that be worse if you didn't really win?

Like, they're in kind of a conundrum there where you are getting something out of this, even in the form of negative information. But at least you're getting negative information out of this, where if you had had Daniel Jones in one nine games, or Aaron Rogers, then you wouldn't have gotten much out of this. I feel like it's a tricky thing to sort your way through. Yeah, and I'll admit that I was somebody in the offseason when there were still some conversations about maybe bringing Sam Darnold back

or trying to find a way to keep Daniel Jones to try and compete with J.J. McCarthy. I was one, you remember this, that was saying they don't necessarily have to go to J.J. McCarthy in 2025, you know, because he's coming off a season in way to, which he didn't play at all. He didn't really practice at all because of the injury and being on IR. So you don't necessarily have to rush him out there in 2025. But the decision was made to go to him,

and then that freed up a lot of cap space because you didn't use a franchise tag on Sam Darnold. You had that money to spend on other parts of the team that needed to be addressed, like the offensive line, like the defensive line, like with, you know, at cornerback going and getting Isaiah Rogers. But, you know, the tricky part is to your point, you know, McCarthy is not as far along as they anticipate.

They were banking on him, having, you know, a year in the league under his belt, even though he really didn't do a lot last year. They were banking on him just being able to be sort of this plug and play. You know, young quarterback that needs work to, to, to grow and develop, but just plug them in with all of these new toys that we went and got in the offseason and the first round draft pick guard that we got. We address all the offensive needs, but he just, he's just not there yet. And if you would have went and, you know, kept Sam Donald or kept Daniel Jones, the biggest

problem, and I don't know if you talked about this before me and Murph jumped on, but I think one of the biggest issues would have been that first interception that Donald or Jones throws or that first bad game, that first three turnover game. We saw Sam had a four-pick game yesterday. The moment Sam Donald has a game like that in a Vikings uniform this year, all of the fans and everybody's going to be pounding the table to put J.J. McCarthy in. They were pounding the table for J.J. McCarthy last year during the Jacksonville game and McCarthy wasn't even going to be able to actually come into the game.

And you had people online saying, oh, I can't wait to go to JJ McCarthy next year. Well, you know, that puts them in a tough spot. And so, and the other part of this, too, is you have the fact that McCarthy is not as far along as they hoped. You're also dealing with a much more difficult schedule than what you're not playing the AFC South this year. So that's been a trickier thing, too. So I just say all that to say that this is this is the situation that they're in now. And now you just have to turn your focus on just trying to get McCarthy to improve as much as humanly possible because it is really vital that he continues to grow and develop because if he doesn't, then you're going to be in a really, really tough situation as a franchise whenever that time comes when you figure out exactly what you have in him. Yeah, I think in a theoretical world, it would make total sense to do, you know, you and I talked about a lot because I thought there was a realistic possibility they could franchise tag Sam Darnold, that they could bring him back.

In a theoretical world, it makes the most sense. Okay, you've got Darnold, see how this year plays out, develop McCarthy behind the scenes, learn about McCarthy, teach him to throw a football the right way throughout all of those scout team reps and everything else. and then you move on for him after that, and then you spend the money in that free agency period and so forth. But in a realistic world where the criticism ramps up very quickly to the point where McCarthy is being booed off the field yesterday, and the entire talking head universe is calling him a bust at this point after five games, it's very hard to say that if Sam Darnold had struggles

and they had the tougher schedule, didn't have the defensive performance, didn't get the turnovers of last year, didn't play the garbage teams of last year, that they would be anything more than maybe six and four. And people would be saying, well, why keep going with this? You're not going to win the Super Bowl. Let us see McCarthy and learn about him. So you're a little bit darned if you do and darned if you don't. Murph, where do you stand on a little bit of a different subject here?

So if you want to talk about that, you can. But just the response you've seen from Kevin O'Connell about McCarthy in these last couple of games. And it does strike me when he said he had a great practice week last week. And I've been saying this. He looked really good at practice and training camp. I don't think he was perfect. I don't think he was as good as, you know, Sam Darnold or Kirk Cousins in their training camps. But I thought there was a okay lot there. And I remember thinking, let's pick 11 games to be how many they win, because I think he could do it. And it just hasn't been what we've seen. But how do you think O'Connell has navigated this so far, Murf? Well, I think he's got, I think he's

done with feathering the nest. I don't think there's that much more leeway he can give McCarthy publicly before the credibility gap explodes. Because right now, he's very, he's towing the line between not destroying his confidence while also trying to acknowledge what we can all see with our naked eyes. So it's there. And it's, I don't expect him to come out and say at four and six, were done because that's clearly counterproductive and just not in the DNA of any coach. But I'm pretty sure in the back of his mind, and I'm pretty sure in the back of everyone's mind in the organization, this is a lost season. And if they somehow go on a run of five or six wins, I see no indication that that's going

to happen after 10 so far. But let's say that does happen. Then it's all, it's all gravy and it's all house money and it's all beneficial to McCarthy. clearly. But right now you are the entire focus of the season is developing McCarthy or finding out whether you cannot develop him, whether or not there really is a ceiling here that he is banging his head on. I'm trying to be as gracious as I can because there's so much writing on this. It's not as simple as just flinging him aside because flinging him aside essentially damages him and probably ruins any chance that he'll have to succeed in Minnesota.

Doesn't necessarily mean he can't succeed somewhere else. It also pretty much says to the world that Kevin O'Connell and Quasi Adolfo Menza didn't really know what they were talking about. So they sold us a lemon. They sold us the lemon that was, this team can compete and make the playoffs and maybe even go on a run in the playoffs. while McCarthy is still on the assembly line. And that has been proven to not be feasible.

It's not viable right now. Kevin Seaford had a great line in history today. Both of those worlds that those two tensions we're talking about, they're cannibalizing themselves right now. There really is no pathway forward to get to the playoffs with McCarthy being out of the way. There doesn't seem to be a path forward for that. So what we're doing now is concentrating on getting his feet right, his eyes right, his decision-making right, and his accuracy right.

This is as back to the basics as it gets, and it's usually not much of a runway in the NFL for that. Maybe your first training camp, maybe your first preseason. We're 18 months into this, and granted, he's lost a lot of time because of injury, but if the basics hitting your open receivers, because they've been schemed open by a coach who's doing everything he can't, to make it easy for you, including kick-starting the running game, the pass protection was there. The pieces were in place with a vulnerable opponent at home to finally right-size, and McCarthy couldn't do it, if anything, he's regressing every time he's out there. So O'Connell's saying the right things, but he's on the clock right now because there's not

much more he can really ring out of this. Let's pat him on the head and protect JJ. Just a real quick thing. A flip side to this is to see how Ben Johnson's handled Caleb Williams. I mean, Caleb Williams was a mess last year, all indications where he didn't take a lot of coaching. Johnson's been pretty harsh on him, or at least hasn't given him a lot of leeway as far as how he's controlled the offense, and he's still challenging him to stay within his means. That's going to, so you've got a contrast here. You've got one coach who's doing everything he can to shroud and protect. mccarthy from the firestorm the justifiable firestorm that's out there you have the

opponent yesterday uh who was picked nine spots ahead of mccarthy and you have a coach that's kind of like calling him on the carpet a little bit publicly and i'm sure behind the scenes to stick with the plan so you have both of these operations going one seems to be succeeding i don't know how much longer uh McCarthy can be sugarcoated here well i think uh with kevin o'connell he is the right personality to work through this well being positive about his quarterback. And I don't think that means not coaching him. I think that that's just how Kevin O'Connell is always going to be a coach. I don't think he's a screaming lunatic. I don't think he's a bully behind the scenes with his quarterback or anything else like that. I think that he is sort of a forever type of optimist that

always thinks that he could fix these things. And sometimes that he thought he could fix the pestronaut. And, you know, that couldn't really do that either. Like, because the, the pure throwing ability for Josh Dobbs wasn't there. And I know, man, he's the world's biggest Josh Dobbs fan, but at some point, you know, it's like, well, this guy's probably not going to be able to execute. I was very skeptical when they traded for him. Yes. I was like, I love him, but yes, you were. And then every one of us after two games was like, ooh, maybe he's the bridge quarterback that actually turned out to be Sam Darnold, who also had been bad for most of his career. So you never really do know with these quarterbacks. But I think all, all O'Connell can

really do the rest of the way is put him in positions that every single starting quarterback in the league that's above average could make. And I thought there were 10 throws yesterday where if you're an above average quarterback in the league, I could just drop in, oh, let me just throw in. Okay, I've got Dak Prescott, and I'm just going to go, boop, we'll use AI and we'll replace Dak Prescott for J.J. McCarthy, how often does he hit that throw? And the answer's 90% of the time. Let's drop in Justin Herbert. Let's drop in the lowest level of franchise quarterback that you could think of. And does he hit some of these plays? And the answer would have been yes for most of those quarterbacks. And that's what makes it so

concerning, but also he has to not lose his mind, as coaches often do, because there could be a turnaround as we go down the stretch. I don't think that's happening in these next two games. In fact, I think if McCarthy gets through them and is healthy, then that's a win, like, because sometimes he has a tendency to run himself into pressure. But if you get into the Washington game, you get into the Giants game where Abdul Carter's just falling asleep and not going to meetings. You get into the Dallas game. It's the worst defense in the league.

Like there is a time where you could see it. But I think what makes that argument harder is that Chicago is just as bad defensively as those teams and he couldn't do it. So, yeah, I do think that O'Connell is handling it probably the best he could. But, man, my opinion on the post game yesterday was. And some people liked it. Some people didn't run the whole offense the way you want to run it. Run it like Matthew Stafford was your quarterback and see what happens.

Just learn as much as you can. And I'm exaggerating, obviously, for, you know, those people who like to take clips of the show or comment on, you know, sentences that I clearly meant in a different way or whatever, you know, but the point is- Leave the running game. Yeah, right, yeah, right. The point is the, but you know what, if you want to throw on third and two, throw on third and two. If you want to throw 40 passes, throw 40 passes, the season is over. You're plus 1250 to make the playoffs.

It is not happening. So throw the football and figure out as much as you can about this kid. And at some point, if you toss him into the deep end and he swims, then you got a quarterback. And if he doesn't, then you better go trade for Trevor Lawrence or something next year. I don't know, whatever, whoever you want to get. It just can't be only him. If you guys have been wearing hats or trying different haircuts in order to cover up for your hair loss, trust me, I totally feel you.

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one of or even dare i say both of these games at green bay at seattle yeah i i think you just have to kind of at this point you know the season's over you don't have to treat this thing with kid gloves anymore just throw this kid at the end of the deep you know the deep end of the pool and just throw the ball all over the field i mean mike leech lincoln riley air raid offense just throw the ball all i'm serious though i mean you're right i'm with you i think at this point you don't really have what else do you have to lose at this point the season is lost the, you know, the moves that you made in the off season, you know, some of them have really worked out really well. You mentioned Roe Fry's being really good yesterday.

I think overall he's been really good. The defensive tackles are, you know, picked up the two guys you got there have been pretty good. But math is math. And right now, it's just your, the odds are against you to go on a playoff run. So I think at this point, you just kind of let it all hang out with J.J. McCarthy. And, you know, McCarthy's never really, if we're being honest, McCarthy's never really been in this situation where he's just said this for weeks. He's never been in a situation where he's had the offense on his shoulders.

And it's just, all right, kid, throw us, you know, throw us to victory. He was never asked to do that at Michigan. He's not been asked to do that in the NFL yet. I think now is a good time, as good a time as any, to just try that out and to see if he can handle it. The only way he's going to get better at this point is if he continues to play and get more throws in. Just throw the ball. He's got to throw the ball. That's the only way he's really going to get better at this point.

You know, you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube as far as, you know, bringing him along, you know, safely and not putting him out there yet because he might not be ready. It's already been kind of established. He was put out there sooner than he maybe needed to be. But now he's out there. So now you just got to see what you can get out of him. You know, KOC, hit that pass button as much as you want now for the rest of the year and just see how things play out. And you know what?

You do that over the next couple of weeks. And then, you know, maybe we do see some real growth, realistic growth over the next, you know, three games. And then when that Dallas game comes around, you're going up against that defense, we do see a 350-yard four touchdown pass type of game with McCarthy. So, but I think it's going to take some ramping up to do that. And I think at this point, so let him throw the ball and see what happens. And I know that yesterday, or not yesterday, last week, we were talking about KOC, run the ball. What's wrong with you?

I know. But here's the difference, because I do want to clarify the difference. The difference is last week, the idea was when you have to win. And if you want to win with J.J. McCarthy, you probably have to have a game plan like yesterday. And it was proof that even with the perfect game plan, the. perfect protection, the perfect open receivers, the perfect, I mean, they ran so well. I mean, I'm an ideal opponent. Right.

Right. I may have, I may have gotten Misty a little bit on that Jordan Mason run because Will Fries took a guy and just deleted him out of the play. It was, it was like, Big Fat Center. We dreamed of this guard. We dreamed of this guard. We dreamed of both of these guards. Don of it, Jackson was phenomenal yesterday.

Like, this is what we asked for for so long. Look at the, look at the, look at the. Blood block. But, you know, the rest of the way, you don't need to find out about Aaron Jones, you know, or Jordan Mason. You know what those guys are. You need to find out about J.J. McCarthy. Let me ask you, Murph. You've seen a lot of quarterbacks in your day as the elder statesman of the podcast. I'm not a name dropper, though, so be careful what you're going to ask me. No, I know. So tell me about the 1974 Detroit Lions quarterback. No, I'm just kidding. But, um, not that. I don't. Well, you could, I don't know, you could have picked up a history book while you were living in Detroit. But here's what I was really going to ask. You've seen a lot of quarterbacks in your day. You think you think he can make it? You think he could turn?

Like, is this too far? Is this too far away? I don't know if he can make it or not, but I do know it's way too early to throw him out. I can say that with confidence. I mean, you've got five games. And if you're, if you're at the point where you're going to. you're just going to throw him aside and deal with him later, maybe. Maybe we can coach him up and turn him into a viable quarterback.

I don't know what your alternative is. So, no, I don't know for sure. What's interesting about what he's done, and it started in week one, is there are always things to cherry pick out of his performance where you go, man, that's some NFL medal right there. That's somebody I can see playing a long time and leading, you know, the Vikings to a tough win in January or a playoff kind of environment where it would be rough because he has moments. I mean, the five for five getting into the end zone and taking the one point lead yesterday was almost the same recipe that he used in Soldier Field to kind of wipe away a multitude of sins. The Vikings being the Vikings, of course, the special teams breakdown made it all for not.

But you can't unsee the previous 55 minutes, just like you can't unsee, what, 80% of his performances have been, in totality, have been awful. You know, there's been 20% where you're like, boy, he's a gamer. Look at that throw. What a clutch throw. Look at that touch. Look at his moxie. Look at the guys rallying around him. Look at people responding to him.

it's just not been enough. So I think he can, I think he needs to have the chance to make it. I'm going to make that assessment in January because then you're going to have the sample size. Then you're going to see how he responds to adversity. And I'm not talking game to game, minute by minute, drive by drive.

I'm talking about getting boot off the field. I'm talking about being the top 10 pick that the nation thinks was a waste of time. I'm talking about blocking out the noise, getting to work, being with your guys, doing the things that need to be done, and not treating it as a chore, but treating it as survival. And this is my livelihood. And I also have pride to be, you know, worthy of the investment this club has made. I don't have any doubt based on what I've seen and heard that he's going to regress as far as work ethic or, desire to be better.

He wants to win. He wants to be the man. You know, it's all there. It's just got to play out over, you know, the course of games. And again, you say it's just the inaccuracy and the inconsistency. If that can be shaped and molded into more acceptable numbers, I mean, look, 50% complete percentage. It's almost in cement right now. It's game by game.

It's throughout the season. It's terrible. and you're not going to last long if you can't get the ball to receivers who are open with good protection. That's just, it's not even table stakes. That's just, that's your ticket into the NFL. So, yeah, I'm not willing to give up on them yet. I don't know if the market is or not. I'm not that plugged in. I know there's a lot of rage out there and justifiable. But maybe now that it seems obvious at four and six that this team's headed to six and 11, seven and 10, I'm not saying embrace it. I'm saying, you know, come to terms with it and laser focus on what it's going to take to get

him better. And if those measurables are where they are today on January 5th, then I think the franchise has some serious reckonings and decisions to make and whether or not the brain trust that has told us all along we need to buy in, you know, they should have the opportunity to make that decision. But I'm sure the Wilps are looking like, what did you guys? guys sell us here? We were, you know, I'm sure they would have backed up the truck for Darnold, if need be, or Farrv, or I'm sorry, or Rogers, geez, that was a Freudian slip. I just wonder if, you know, there's got to be a lot of tension and second guessing throughout the building because it's all interconnected right now. It's all interconnected to

the coaching future, the GM philosophy, the investments that was made, that was made, the veterans, in the locker room, everybody sort of has a different agenda right now, but the only agenda that matters is, is McCarthy going to be able to get better? And it's really, really alarming how regressive he's looked. When you look at the contracts that they handed out, it really, really looks like a two-year thought process for J.J. McCarthy of we're going to have two with this group that we've built, legitimate shots to be very, very good, right? And probably the better shot all long was 2026 because you would assume that J.J. McCarthy would have had a year of development and a year of playing and so forth. But, you know, we also saw a real world where it was like

Denver, where Nix gets dropped in. The team is pretty darn good. The coach is really good. And they win 10 games and they lose the Buffalo. But everyone in Denver felt like, oh, this team is going in the right direction. I think that's the feeling that everyone, wanted to come out with J.J. McCarthy and is still possible. Not that they can make the playoffs, but if you have five backup quarterback games and then you go 500 overall with J.J. McCarthy. And at the end of the day, if instead of 52%, it's up to 62% after a pretty tough start. And instead of a 65 quarterback rating, it's up to an 85 quarterback rating by the end of the year. I think then you could say, all right, you still need a

veteran backup that could be your fallback type of option. But this is enough to go forward with. I guess I want to note, Manny, what your standard is the rest of the way. Because when the season, and this is what's so darn hard, because I like, and you like this too, Manny, we like preview in games. We like talking about, oh, you know, the outside linebacker for this team's pretty good. Look out for him. And we like, oh, how are they going to send blitzes?

What's their corner matchup with Jefferson? Unfortunately, a lot of that stuff is a little bit off the table now as we focus on. just what is McCarthy. So what could get you, if we consider it a two-year window with this year and next year, with this roster, what could get you to within reason from what we've seen to the point where you would say, yeah, you know what, I'm, I'm in. I'm in for 2026 with J.J. McCarthy. Like how many wins or where does his numbers have to be at for you in order to say that?

so they're four and six i i think if they can get to eight wins and you know we kind of talked about this a couple of weeks ago too about just where how many wins would it take for you know us to feel good about where they're headed and i think i'd closed in on like nine wins now it kind of seems like nine wins is a little off the table because now you're talking about a five and two finish here in the last seven i think that's that's a lot to ask Um, but I think at this point, if you can get to eight and nine and McCarthy is showing improvement and finishes the year strong and plays well, even if you lose both of those lions and Packers games at the end of the year, but McCarthy plays really well and give you, give you some hope and finishes the season strong, that's where I would like, that's where I would feel like, okay, I'm, I'm back on. on the bandwagon of let's let's give this kid another you know offseason um you know another year training camp to just really fine tune all of the little things that need to be kind of

tweaked and worked on you know we're talking about the mechanics and the accuracy and all that stuff is just give him another year to really kind of clean a lot of those things up and then next year stay healthy get off to a good start and see see what happens I don't know. I mean, they've spent so much in free agency these last two off seasons. I don't know how much they're going to be able to do that in 2026. They'll find a way. But, you know, I think it's going to be, you know, just get him another year in the system and, you know, see how 2026 goes. But in order for me to have that mindset, I think they've got to finish the season a lot stronger. And we've got to see some real legitimate improvement from J.J. McCarthy. as these last seven games progress. Not, you know, oh, he had a nice drive to end the game, you know, like yesterday. It's got to be, you know, more complete games and actual improvement that we can see and that we can look at in the numbers as well.

I think the numbers have got it. We've got to see the numbers go up too for him. And you know what? If they start throwing the ball all over the place like we're saying, I think we should see those numbers go up. But we got to see some real legitimate growth and development, not just what we want to try and convince ourselves that we're seeing. We've got to actually see it.

It's got to make sense. Where's your bar, Murph? You know, I'm not even looking at victory totals right now because when I see the schedule, I see maybe three wins the rest of the way. I mean, I'm thinking Washington, the Giants, and Dallas. And I wouldn't even say Dallas is a gimmie just because their defense is awful. But, you know, you could go down there and lose 4138. So what does that put them at 7 and 10?

I mean, that doesn't do much for me. But as Manny was saying, I want to see four quarters. I want to see, I don't want to see, you know, 12 of 28 for 150 yards and three touchdowns. You know, I'd like to see 20 of 24, you know, for 280 to 300 and three touchdowns and no picks. And I also want to see, I want to see him take charge early in a game. I want to see him respond from a turnover, maybe well, you know, a fumble that maybe wasn't his, an interception that wasn't his fault. I want to see how he responds to the next drive.

I don't want to see another three and out. I don't want to see it get worse before it gets better. Those are the things that just passing the eye test. I mean, I can't imagine being there yesterday how frustrating it was to see the receivers that were so open and so. the dynamic of the game could have changed. I know everybody's kind of ripping on a KOC for his pitch and catch quote, but I truly

believe that a few of those completions on the first possession to Addison, I think he had wide open or Naler, one of the two that just fell in front of his feet. I mean, that just sets a tone and sets a level of expectation that's not healthy. So to

get those kinds of embarrassing throws, the happy feet, stepping into pressure, managing your adrenaline, managing your emotions, being a professional. That's what it all comes down to. I want to see some of that sustained. I want to see him take a huge hit, get up and throw a bomb. I mean, these are the things that I think differentiate the Hall of Famers, the playoff contenders, and even just really good passers from guys you don't remember anymore because it's how you respond in games.

And then like I said earlier, he hasn't dealt with this kind of the world is caving in around him pressure ever. Any 22-year-old elite athlete who gets drafted 10th overall and didn't have to really carry a lot of weight at Michigan, I mean, he's a superstar. And he got the money and he got the contract and he's got the buzz and the market's just dying for him to to deliver and wants to embrace him. But the patience only runs so deep and that that was on display yesterday. and I'm curious how he's going to respond. He's not going to be at home for a couple of weeks. Now he's got Lambeau. There's a big test.

May not determine the division, but going up to Lambo on a cold day and dealing with a playoff contender, how's he going to respond? All these little things, that's what I'm going to be looking for, not so much the record. Well, I think that this next two weeks

really is a make or break type of situation for somebody like J.J. McCarthy. And when I say break, I mean, could really break, because you have Micah Parsons. And look, the offensive line's been fantastic, but they're going to attack with Parsons from left, right, and center. They'll probably go after the center. Blake Brandl will see, I mean, Ryan Kelly could potentially come back.

I'm a little nervous about that myself. But Brandl, I think, has played really, really well. You know that Parsons is going to get after him, though. You can't stop that guy. They've got a really good defense. Their coverage unit has played a lot better. They've got a really good defensive coordinator. and then Seattle is totally stacked.

Great defensive line, great secondary. They played really, really well and gave their team a chance to win despite four interceptions from Sam Darnold yesterday. That says a lot about the Seattle Seahawks. Plus, going to Seattle, I was kind of a, eh, I'm not so sure that it was, maybe it was really just that they had a great team, that whole Legion of Boom thing and all the, whatever, 12th man.

But then last year, having actually been there, I was like, okay, yeah, it's real. It's real. That doesn't always mean they're going to win every home game, but it is really difficult to play in these places. So if he can get through these games, split them, win one of these, pick up some momentum for him to where, yeah, it isn't perfect, but it also, he says it doesn't snowball on him.

I think it actually does. And I think it does on a lot of young quarterbacks where when you're out there and you're on the stage and they're booing you and you're missing, it can really feel like you are drowning out there. And just the piggyback real. quick, sorry to interrupt you, just, but he's not only going to go to Seattle, but the whole NFL nation is going to be talking about the Darnold versus McCarthy matchup and what the Vikings could have and should have done.

He's going to have to handle all of that going into that game as well. And the thing is, the hard thing about with that whole personality bit is that we have seen at work at times where guys have fought through it and they've gotten to the other side and it's been impressive. But we've also seen some guys who are really, really great. as people and as leaders and all that sort of stuff. And it just, you couldn't throw the ball well enough. And I think of Kenny Pickett when I think of that.

Where it's like, Kenny, I think, you know, he's still a backup in the league and he won or at least played well in a couple of games for Philly last year. And that's great, but he just couldn't throw the ball well enough. And when we talk about this experiment of, yeah, you're dropping a younger quarterback into a great team. They're not the first ones to ever do it. You know, Trey Lance was another example. of that. I think the Indianapolis Colts believed that they were a really good team when they

drafted Anthony Richardson. And that's why they started him right away is because they thought they could compete if they could just sort of work through the inconsistency. So there have been times where it's worked great. Jalen Hertz came right into being a starter and got them to the playoffs. Then the next year he's in the Super Bowl. And he had to work through some things. I think we're still at the point where we don't really know yet. But I also don't think that, I mean, he is not going to be a screwball where he's going to throw people under the bus and he's going to not come to practice on time. He's not going to be that guy. But also just being not that guy and working hard and trying your best doesn't mean that this will actually work for you.

Football is very, very hard that way. You can't just intangible your way into being a great quarterback. Yes. Intangibles are great to have. And all of the great ones in the league have them. Lamar has it. Mahomes has it. Josh Allen has it. But it's going to take more than just the intangibles to be one of the great ones in this league. You've got to have the physical ability. The accuracy's got to be there. All of those things have to be there in order for you to be their total package. What else you guys want to talk about with this game? Did anybody else play a football game? Gosh, poor Miles Price got another kick return taken back. Had a great game, the specialty, how special teams are just determining games all over the NFL now.

And I feel like, you know how I just bang the drum for that kickoff to change? I both can gesture at it and say, see how great this is? And also, oh my gosh, it's kind of messed up everything. It's made games so much less predictable. It's made starting field positions ridiculous. It's changed just about everything in the NFL. I don't know what to say about the end of the game. usually they've been very good at stopping returners.

I did wonder one thing. Here's a hypothetical for you, Manny. If they just stop Devin DuVernay and then sack Caleb Williams and they win that game, what do we talk? What are we talking? Are we still having the same conversation or not? I think so. But I think it, I don't, I think we're still having the conversation of them, you know,

with a chance to make, to go on a. run here and make the playoffs. But I think all of the concerns that we have with J.J. McCarthy right now are still being talked about because if we're if we're being honest, we just saw one good drive from him yesterday. And it was great that it happened when it happened. It was at the most clutch time possible in the game, late in the game, last possession. But up to that point, the first 54, 55 minutes of the game, was not good and he struggled so i think we would still be having the conversation but i think we would be having it within the prism of well what you know this team still has a chance to make

the postseason what can this quarterback do now you know how much of what we saw on the last drive is a indication that he's really going to start to pick things up and and help this team get to the playoffs but i would still think that all of the concerns that we have are are are real. And even if they would have held on and won the game yesterday, they would still, exist. Do you feel that way, Murph? Yeah, I think the conversation would be, can they make the playoffs in spite of J.J. McCarthy? Yeah. Because I think, you know, what he did yesterday was in the final drive, it would not have been enough to cover up the blemishes of the day. And it also kind of, it's funny, because it does harken back to the week one game against the Bears at

Soldier Field, where he was pretty miserable for three quarters and then got it together. led them on three touchdown drives, including the scramble to score for the winning score. And it's like, wow, what a debut, right? You can almost just erase everything that happened for 45 minutes because of how he performed in the fourth quarter. I don't think he would have gotten that grace yesterday because we all saw how awful it was. And frankly, if he was able to go five for five and lead a touchdown drive and, you know, they were able to get the running games and Mason to start. the comeback, where was that earlier? And why was it so impossible to be that accurate and that

focused and that dialed in earlier? Because then it begs the question is, is he ever going to be a complete player? So yes, the W would have been great. The manner in which they got it would have been nice, finally win another home game. Yeah, by the way, they're one and four at home, which is just, you know, unforgivable for the advantage that stadium has. You know, I said a couple weeks ago after the Lions win, none of that's going to matter if they can't take care of business at home. And the way in which they lost against Baltimore and Chicago completely different ways, McCarthy was ineffective in both, more so yesterday than a week ago when it was of the fall starts and whatnot. But it just feels like he can't get a free pass anymore. So no, I think we'd be

nitpicking them big time. They would still be viable at five and five, but now the meat grinder's there. I mean, you're going to Green Bay, you're going to Seattle. You know, Washington is, you know, DOA, it looks like. Dallas could be a win, but you still got to play Detroit and Green Bay at the end. And I'm not sure, you know, we keep chalking up the Giants game. I mean, I, you know, if it's cold and windy and who knows who's quarterbacking or coaching or doing what with that team, I don't know. They're just so, they're so unhinged. They're dangerous. So I wouldn't even know if that's, it's even good to predict a way there. They played the backers tough. yesterday.

Yeah, they did. So, you know, that might not be the walk, you know, the walkover. So they, he's, he would be dealing with all of the, the challenges that lie ahead. He just may be able to, he might have been able to wink his way out of it a little bit yesterday, but, uh, no, uh, we'd still be looking at the glaring gaps that really, that really have people up in arms. Right. And if you, you can't beat this, I think they're a very mediocre bear's team.

I know what the record says. I also know who else they've beat. then we can't really write anybody in is just a guaranteed W. I think there's opportunities there and opportunities for McCarthy to have a lot of clean pockets and a lot of looks at open wide receivers. And that's where you could ultimately go back to this game at some point and say, well, look, you could see the improvement because when he played the Bears, this happened and against Dallas, that happened.

But to your point, I think that it would feel, the discussion would feel a little different in the way that we'd be saying, good job, KOC. you found the formula to win with McCarthy. If he hits three more throws and, hey, some guys use some stick them on their hands, then maybe I think we'd focus on the drops probably a little more. I think if the drops were the only incompletions and not the eight other passes that were nowhere close, I would probably, or, you know, that some of the drops were they didn't mean that much or were on throws that were

a thousand miles an hour over just to Jefferson's head, but technically it is a drop, like that kind of thing. Well, we'd probably focus on that more and say, man, if they just catch the balls, then at least you could get mediocre, 150 yards offense, run the ball a lot. And you can win some games this year in the NFL because of the environment that is sort of set up for teams running, kicking field goals, like that kind of thing. Get two first downs, kick a field goal and your scoring points. But I still think it would be very worrisome through five games, what the statistics are. saying about J.J. McCarthy, it would just be much more of, man, if they could just win this game at Lambo, get back to 500, and then, man, like this season is still interesting. It's still

live. It went not live yesterday. So the, uh, fan dual question of the day, my friends, was just, uh, who are you guys counting as legitimate Super Bowl contenders after another week in the national football league? Mani, what would your list look like? Let me give you on Fan duel, the top teams in terms of Super Bowl odds as of this moment. Philadelphia Eagles are at the top at plus 500. The Rams plus 650. Buffalo is plus 800. Then Kansas City is still a top five Super Bowl odds team,

despite the fact that they are not in the playoffs plus a thousand. A nostalgia pick. Yeah, I guess so. The Colts, Lions, Seahawks, Ravens, Broncos, Packers, and the Patriots all the way at plus 1,700. The market is not buying them. and I'm not sure that I would put anybody else in that conversation unless I'm missing someone.

San Francisco got a win yesterday. Who do you want to put in your legit, legit? Not just the like, maybe, but like the, I really think this team could win it all. Well, if I'm looking at the NFC specifically, Philadelphia and the Rams, I think, are just head and shoulders above everybody else. I think Seattle's really good, too, but I think there may be a notch down. But, you know, Philadelphia and the Rams, I think, are really far ahead of everybody else.

The Rams especially just Matthew Stafford, my goodness, how he continues to do this is just unbelievable. On the AFC side, it's a little bit harder. I mean, I think, you know, Kansas City, the fact that they're sitting as like a nine seed in the AFC right now at five and five. But I think as long as they're still mathematically in the playoff hunt, I think you can't, you can't count them out mainly because of number 15 and, you know, number 87, too, is still got a little bit left in the tank. It looks like, you know, New England, I love what New England is doing. I'm not quite sure that they're there yet, but it's hard for me to say that because Drake May is playing so well right now. I mean, you talk about a quarterback, a young quarterback that has made a jump. He's been fantastic. Mike Vrable can really coach. But it's just something just tells me that they're not quite there yet.

And then Denver, Denver's defense is fantastic, but I don't know if they're going to be able to have enough offensively in the postseason. You know, I don't know if they're going to be able to do enough offensively for the defense to just sort of carry them the way they carried Peyton Manning back at 2015 to winning the Super Bowl. I don't think that they're there yet. Indianapolis is a hard one, too, because of, I don't know if this Daniel Jones thing is going to fall out the table or not. So the AFC is really hard to pick. I don't know if there really is a legitimate team outside of Kansas City just because, you know, and maybe Baltimore, too, because it feels like, you know, they've won four in a row now after that one in five start and they have Lamar. I think they seem healthy now.

So maybe Baltimore is that team. that's starting to look like their old selves now, too. So I'll go with Philadelphia, the Rams, and then Kansas City and Baltimore, as kind of my teams that I think can legitimately still win it. Murph? Yeah, I was a little skeptical about the Eagles for a bit, and especially last week with all the AJ Brown drama

just spilling over once again, and their inability to really do much offensively. It just seems very perplexing. And they weren't great offensively yesterday. they were good enough. But the way they dominated Detroit on defense and the way they played defensively, they may just be able to win 16 to 9 all the way through. And I think they have the tiebreaker with the Rams because of a head-to-head.

So if they end up playing in the snow again, I feel like the road is really going to be difficult if it goes through Philadelphia now. That being said, the Rams, though, they always fly under the radar because they're out on the West Coast and maybe we don't get to see enough games. and, you know, it just feels like they're doing it. You know, Stafford is Stafford, and he's producing at a 30-year-old level. We know that. But defensively, that's a team I would not want to mess with either.

They find a way to make huge plays. It's a young unit. They got skill players. McVeigh just seems to get so much out of all of his team, and they want to run through a wall for him. It was a big win against Seattle. I think Seattle's going to be a challenge. But I really think it's going to have to go through L.A. or Philadelphia and whoever wins that NFC championship game, I think wins the Super Bowl.

I still like Buffalo as a team of destiny because they have Josh Allen, and it's now or never with them. And I'm kind of rooting for them a little bit, Collar. You know, I think the country would love to see them in there. Certainly not the Chiefs. I think people are done with the Chiefs. I don't know if the Chiefs are done with us. I think there's still going to be a factor. They could be, you know, look, Mahomes in a playoff game.

I don't care where it's at or what the stakes are. He's going to come to play. But Denver, that was a huge win. I mean, because you really are taking down the king, right? You gave him your best shot at home. You got a young quarterback who, you know, doesn't really light up the scoreboard. But, man, when the game's on the line and the money throws need to be made, he's proven he's able to do that.

and nobody's sacking more teams than the Broncos. So I would say they would almost be my, you know, dark horse in a way to really maybe upend some things. But I really do think it's right now where we're at. It's in Eagles Rams league right now. Which is funny to call them the dark horse because they beat Kansas City and they're nine and two. And yet no one has bought into them all year long.

I think that they should be a Super Bowl favorite in part because they could win the whole conference. And then they're playing at home. And with a buy week, I mean, if you go out to Denver, I think it's a really, really hard place to play against that defense. And it should be mentioned, Bo Nix has the lowest sack percentage in the entire NFL, which is something, it doesn't get baked into the statistics. But when you play pretty safe football, that, you know, all you need is a couple of plays when you're not taking negatives all the time. And they are playing a field position type of game, which I feel like in this year can actually work. Even in previous years, we would have said, no way, the quarterback's got to be much better.

But would you be shocked to see sort of a early Ben Rothsburger type Pittsburgh Steelers team or an early Joe Flacko Ravens? Like, that's what this Denver team feels like. It's not that we've never seen teams like this go to the Super Bowl. And that's even with superstar quarterbacks in the conference. Buffalo is up and down, but you know, you tend to think that Allen is going to be able to drag them to places where maybe they're roster doesn't deserve them to be. They also have a great offensive line, which I think helps when they get to the playoffs.

So they belong up there. But I feel like Denver being only plus 1,400 is pretty surprising to me. And yesterday, I would like to congratulate some Vikings fans on their Super Bowl, which was yesterday when Sam Darnold lost because they reacted to the loss like it was their championship. So congratulations, I'll be interested to see what those rings look like for a lot of you. But, you know, the thing about Sam Darnold was. Maybe they can show them off in two weeks. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. And the head to head. Yes. Sam Darnold lost to the Rams ring.

But he dropped from the number one PFF quarterback to number two. So congrats on that. But look, I think what with Sam Darnold, where he's settled into over his career, is the same spot as Dak Prescott, Jared Gough, Justin Herbert, where there are kryptonites to these guys. They are great quarterbacks, and they win a lot of games, and under the right circumstances, they're great. But Justin Herbert is terrible yesterday versus a great Jaguars defense because they get to him. And the same thing with Darnold, he's missing his center, and then Gray Zabel got hurt. What does that sound like? It sounds like the playoff game from last year.

And then all of a sudden, he's trying to force it and he throws bad interceptions because that's who he is. Jared Gough, last night, what did Philadelphia do? They got to him. and he had no real answer for it. Like this is, this is a lot of quarterbacks in the league overall. I think that's what makes Stafford so hard to beat is that he's a guy you can't just knock down over and over.

I would also put Jordan Love in that same category. So the question you'd have to ask if you're having that whole debate is whether you would prefer, you know, five or six runs at it or something with a Sam Darnold level quarterback that also a lot of the rest of the league has this type of quarterback or you're aiming for what the Vikings tried to do this year, which was the rookie quarterback contract and stack your team, well, that's what Denver has done.

And they've had a lot of success. It has not worked so far for the Vikings. But, you know, anybody who's just dancing on, I shouldn't say his grave, what's his record, seven and three, what's your record? So dancing on that game yesterday is just idiotic to me because Sam Darnold was awesome for your football team in 11 games and played his butt off.

Like, what are you mad at? So I don't know. Weird stuff, but fans are weird. So, all right, wrap this up with this. We'll look forward. Mani and I will preview Vikings and Packers. We'll pick the schedule on Thursday. What's, what are we make of the Packers?

Like, what's our early feeling on the Packers? They go to New York. They play James. They get a win. Jordan Love, I watched a little bit of that game. I was like, his numbers didn't look like his performance. He played great. You talk about drop passes?

I think they had like four or five, too. I thought he was really good in that game. He got banged up. But it's the Giants. Where are we at with Green Bay, Manny? I think that they are, they kind of just seem like the team that they've been the last couple of years, which is really good,

going to make the playoffs. But they're just, they're going to get, they're going to run into the Rams or the Eagles. And it's just not going to be good. enough on the road having to play either one of those two teams and it's just not going to be enough i i think getting micha parsons obviously you you that's any any team that picks up micha parsons is just like a plus man because he's a monster but it just feels like there's there's

not enough consistency from them as a as a team as a whole to make me really want to believe that they can go on a deep run to to the super bowl i think for for the for that to happen, it's going to have to be Jordan Love just having like four games in the playoffs where he is just unreal and thrown for 350 yards or 400 yards in every game. And he just kind of throws them to the Super Bowl. Other than that, I just don't think that they have enough. They don't really, I mean, Romeo Dobbs is a good wide receiver, but is he like really a true number one. He's number one for them. But is he, how many teams in the league would he be a number

one receiver for? And I think that's, that's going to kind of hurt them a little bit come postseason. So I think they're good, but just not quite good enough to really be taken seriously as like, oh, yeah, that team's going to kick everybody's ass and go to the Super Bowl. I just don't, I don't see that yet from them. Yeah. KFT says, I don't think people are mad at Darnold. There's a recognition that maybe he plays bad in really big games. At least he's playing in big games. At least he's playing in big James. Murph? Yeah, I mean, I, yeah, that's, that's a great point. I mean, he is there, and he probably will be there this January again. I, the Packers, I, it's been hard for me to get a feel for them. I don't want to say they've leveled off, but there was always this sort of

ascension that they seem to be on, love taking them there, but he's banged up again. He's got a little bit of a shoulder issue. He seems to have really, and I, it's probably his style of play. You know, he's fearless. It takes a lot of hits in the pocket. It's not afraid to lower his shoulder. I don't know how effective he's going to be later on. I think the Lambeau mystique is waning a bit. The tie to Dallas, you know, may benefit him, may hurt him. We're not sure how that's going to play out. I don't see, you know, Chicago feels like a fraud to me, but they've got seven wins. So whether that plays out as frauds or they keep going up, I mean, Green Bay certainly within their sights and the lions look vulnerable too. So I think it's there for Green Bay and I think

it's about time that LaFleur step on the gas because it's weird that he's taking questions about his job security, which seems a little odd considering his overall record and where he's at today. But there just seems to be a sense that they're just not as good as they should be or they're leaving too much on the table, especially offensively. Then again, you acquire Michael Parsons and he's a gamebreaker. And he's the one guy who could probably single-handedly win you one or two games down the stretch because he's going to destroy an offense with one snap. So in one snap.

So I feel like they can be dangerous because of that. I think Love's Health, you know, Jacobs is hurt now too. So everybody's banged up, but they seem to be nicked in some key spots. So, you know, loves health. And relative productivity and development and Parsons' ability to break open any game at any moment still, I think, leaves them, you know, somebody to be contended with. I think that they fall under the category of all second tier contenders in the NFC, which is good, flawed. San Francisco, good team, but they're flawed. Like, they don't have a great defense and they're banged up and missing key players.

and I would say the same for the Packers, the Lions, good. The Lions are good team, but they're flawed, especially when they're backpedaling a bit. Right. When they call pass interferences that don't exist at the end of the game, but they had six points or whatever at that point. Yeah, that was my thing of like, yeah, you're right. That wasn't a pass interference, but also, what do you come on. I mean, your team was. They weren't winning that game regardless.

It is, to me, Philadelphia and Los Angeles are Titans. And then you have everybody is sort of fighting for. maybe we can be a contender, too, which is Seattle Green Bay, although it wouldn't have been funny if Jason, if Will Reichert's kicking for that team, then Seattle wins, but it would have been crazy if he had made that. But either way, the point just being that, like, there's a clear first tier, clear second tier, and they fall into it. What I'm curious about, J.J. McCarthy has never faced a Micah Parsons.

It was Carson Wentz, who played against Miles Garrett. and then, I mean, look at the other one. I mean, Aiden Hutchinson is great. There's no doubt about that. He's great. He's not Micah, I don't think. I think Mike is the best of the best. Him and Miles Garrett are one and one A in the NFL.

And I would say Hutchinson is a little bit below that. So, and also Hutchinson is just a defense event. Parsons will line up anywhere and do anything. There's never a time where he's faced a player like that. So that is a unique challenge. but I think that they're good. I also think you could beat them. I mean, they didn't crush the Giants.

They've lost to the Browns this year. Like, on a bad day for them, you can win. And if they do, then I think we are having a slightly different discussion. I don't think it'll change the playoff odds, but we're saying, okay, there's the win that you were looking for that might be able to propel whatever. And I think division games are closer than usually any other. Mani, Murf, we're going to do a lot of this over the coming week. weeks of breaking down every single thing that happened to the quarterback position. We'll try to

spread the love a little bit more to other positions and different things like that. But this is, this is at the top of the list for most interesting as we go forward. So thank you for your time, Murph, Mani. We will see you on Thursday night. And don't forget to answer that Fandul question of the day. You're legit Super Bowl contenders. Not the, maybe, but the, you're true legit Super Bowl contenders. So thank you. And thank everybody. for watching slash listening and we will catch you all tomorrow with jeremiah surles and then we'll go forward through the week got some good guests for you even aaron nagler is supposed to come on to drive everybody crazy so uh we'll catch you guys all later football football