Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - What would the Vikings be like if Kevin Stefanski stayed? And the great Kirk Cousins debate

Episode Date: December 17, 2020

Matthew Coller is joined by Robert Mays of The Athletic Football Show to talk about whether their pre-season top 10 lists were regrettable and they dive into Kevin Stefanski's success in Cleveland. What if the Vikings had moved on from Mike Zimmer and kept Kevin Stefanski? Plus should the Vikings be looking at quarterbacks in the draft? Is that the route to being a Super Bowl team or should they focus on building an elite defense? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Soccer is going to explode, and it's going to be around this kid. We were the Beatles. Everywhere we went, it was the Freddie show. And with that came the expectation, and with We were the Beatles. Everywhere we went, it was the Freddie show. And with that came the expectation, and with that came the pressure. New episodes of American Prodigy drop Tuesdays from Blue Wire Podcasts. Welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. And joining me from The Athletic is Robert Mays. His show you can catch with Nate Tice, which is Mike Tice's son.

And Nate has been promising to come on the show someday. And I really need you. That is your first order of business on this show is to demand that he fulfills that request. Robert, let's go. I'm surprised that he's been hard to get. He's available. I'll ask him. Every Monday for you, and here I am sliding into his DMs

and can't get him on. I think it might be personal with a Minnesota thing. Listen, it's his job to come on my show. He's compensated for that, so he can't necessarily escape. But with you, I think out of the goodness of his heart, he'd be more than happy to do it. He's a much better person than I am, and I'm here. Well, see, I have a great love for the XFL, and he worked in the XFL,

so I feel like that connection should at least get me there. He worked in the AAF. Oh, the AAF. Okay, now I blew it. Now you're done now. Now it's over. Now he's never going to come on. Now I'm deleting that.

Okay, I love the AAF too. Anyway, so a few months ago you and I got together before the season, and we made our top ten NFL teams for 2020. And I went back and I found the list, and I discovered that some of our picks were fine and some of them were a disaster, mostly my pick of the Dallas Cowboys second overall. So let me give you your team,

and you tell me if you still feel like you're happy with how this worked out for you. Okay, all right. So your team was Kansas City, the New Orleans Saints, Tampa Bay Bucs, San Francisco 49ers, and Buffalo Bills. I think you did great there. And my team was Dallas, the Ravens, the titans seattle and arizona so you you were that's not that bad stronger than than i was what what what did we what do you regret do you have any regrets about how we did that i got the bills that low huh i'm not i'm surprised because i love

them coming into the season uh i'm just glad that I didn't get to pick the Cowboys because if I had the second pick, I probably would have picked the Cowboys. So I really lucked out having the first overall pick in that fake draft. You know what I'm still going to hold on to here? I'm still going to hold on to that if Dak Prescott doesn't get hurt, they probably win the NFC East, I think. Like they were a disaster to start, but look at the NFC East I think like they were a disaster to start but look at the NFC East it has been so horrendous that they probably get on a run at some point and they certainly would

have beat Minnesota with the fact that Andy Dalton beat them I don't know I think that it wasn't a crazy pick considering all their weapons and the fact that offense wins and drives success it was oh I totally agree I picked them to win the NFC. I thought they would have the number one seed in the NFC in all the predictions that I did. And based on what their offense was last year, and you add CeeDee Lamb to that and everything else, it's totally reasonable. I think it's justifiable in every way.

I don't know how good they would have been. Let's say you just drop back into this equation. Everything else goes the same. The offensive line injuries I still think would hamper them in a way that is hard to understand because you lose Dak and then you lose the line. So parsing where the fault lies is difficult. But I still think their offense would have been solid under Dak. It wouldn't have been the rocket ship I expected it to be coming into the

season. Mike McCarthy duped me. The okie-dokie and whatever he did by doing that whole redemption tour and his stop at Pro Football Focus and everything else, I cannot believe that I was roped into it in the same way that everyone else was, considering how much I've watched of those late-career Mike McCarthy Packers teams. I'm a little bit embarrassed about it, if I'm being honest. I feel the same way.

And yes, him saying, I went to PFF and that whole deal, and now I'm into analytics, Mike McCarthy. But I believed in Kellen Moore. And I thought, okay, well, even if Mike McCarthy is kind of a disaster in some ways still, their offense should be really exciting anyway. And you can't be worse than the coaching job that jason garrett just did i thought and then he comes right out of the gate and i guess proves both of us wrong but at least in our picks that did not go the right way 49ers uh on

your list here i mean that's another one where it's a lot of you. You okay about that? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, so both really quarterback games. They've been respectable. Yeah, they've been respectable. I went through the same set of rationalizations with the Cowboys, so I'm very glad that we're on the same page there and my faults are not my own. Yeah, that's right. As long as you can give yourself outs and excuses that it didn't work out because of Dak.

And then, you know, the 49ers, you have the injuries, Jimmy Garoppolo out. Sorry, everyone who thought that Nick Mullins was going to be as good as Jimmy Garoppolo. That was pretty unlikely in my mind, and it hasn't turned out that well. And the teams that we would probably change here is, you know, you would obviously have Pittsburgh in the mix, even though they've hit some stumbling blocks of late. They started the season, what, 11-0. So you would have included have included them and then Green Bay we haggled over whether to include Green Bay as a top 10 team that was one where we all expected regression the NFC North is going to be a bunch of mediocrity and that turned out to be right except for Aaron Rodgers suddenly went from

washed to flipping on the MVP button. And I don't know if you have an explanation or you have talked to people who have an explanation for why Aaron Rodgers has been so much better this year than he was really the last, like, four years. But it's been remarkable. And if I knew that, then I would have put them as a top-five team. I didn't know which direction it would go. I always thought this was possible. I always thought that it could follow the same trajectory as Matt Ryan did

under Kyle Shanahan, where you get in the year two of this offense. The process with Matt Ryan and Kyle Shanahan was not always easy. If you go back and you look at the numbers of that 2015 Falcons offense, it's pretty mediocre. It's definitively mediocre. I don't know exactly where they finished in certain metrics, but you didn't launch that offense and think, oh man, like this thing is ready to explode. And there was a process of Matt Ryan and Kyle Shanahan getting used to each other. Some of that was turning his back to the defense on play action.

Some of it was specific route depths and concepts. And the same way when you've done everything pretty similarly for a long time, and you've been a guy that has tastes as a 30-something quarterback and Aaron Rodgers had the same thing and I feel like it was a feeling out process with that offense and this offseason they pared things down they simplified things like what do we both like and I think they've really come into their own so I think it followed the same path that Matt Ryan did I just didn't expect it to be headed along that path. I thought they'd be more run heavy. I let their personnel choices this offseason influence my thinking about what the offense would look like structurally.

And I just shouldn't have done that. Matt LeFleur and Aaron Rodgers are both good at this. And I think we're seeing the best versions of both of those guys. I think when you draft a running back in the second round and you already have Aaron Jones and you don't give more weapons to a guy that's already not looked like the same all-time great quarterback, it's totally reasonable for people to go,

what is this going to be? Like, how is he going to get better? And I think you make great points that the more comfortable he is in that system the better it is and maybe he's made changes to his game the last time I saw him he was throwing in 40 mile an hour wins playing against the Vikings and and had a very bizarre loss and didn't have Aaron Jones in that game but you know it's just interesting to me about almost really the theme of the NFL is how much everything going on around a quarterback is impacting that particular quarterback. Whether it's Carson Wentz going from an MVP candidate to the very bottom of the league or somebody that I know you're writing about, Baker Mayfield, and how he's paired with Kevin Stefanski, which is actually what I wanted to ask you about, because the Browns would also probably sneak into this list as well

for a top 10 team. And I wonder if you think that the Vikings should have regrets about staying the course the way that they did and letting Kevin Stefanski go to the Browns now that he has taken the worst or bottom three franchise in the sport and made them a highly competitive team? I think in a vacuum, yes. But what were they supposed to do? Were you going to fire Mike Zimmer and keep Kevin Stefanski? I think that there's a world where that sounds nice, but how realistic is that?

I just don't see that happening. So if that's not going to happen, I don't know how you're going to keep it. I always lean toward offense, and I think that that's not a new idea. We've come to understand that it's more consistent. It's easier to replicate. Having a good offense year after year allows you to be a better team than having a good defense or building through defense, and I think that Kevin Stefanski is very good at this I thought he was last year if you look at that offense they were 10th I believe in offensive DVOA Kirk Cousins was ninth in EPA per play among quarterbacks is a quarterback friendly system that he ran very well and you could argue

about how much of that was him and how much of it was Gary Kubiak everything else I think now we have a lot of evidence that it was a huge chunk of Kevin Stefanski so I believe that he was going to be a good head coach I thought it was a good hire I'm just not sort of I'm not sure what sort of recourse the Vikings would have had to retain him well so if we go back in time it did sort of almost happen because they go into the game against the New Orleans Saints with ownership kind of teetering on the edge of where they wanted to go in the future. And if they get killed by New Orleans in that game, I think that they do it. I think that they, if you remember, there were rumors that they could trade Zimmer.

I was on your show that week. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think that there is a world where that happens, where they do decide to go with Kevin Stefanski. And then I don't know where we're at right now, because I think the biggest frustration of Vikings fans is that as much as Gary Kubiak is a legend and their offense has been effective, as we were talking about just before we went on, Kevin Stefanski is like the guy that everybody wants when they hire the young-ish, good-looking dude who loves play action, right, and is very creative. Like that is Kevin Stefanski, and it's worked out for them. And I think when Vikings fans look at Justin Jefferson getting four catches

in a game that you lose and two of them are late in the fourth quarter, you go, man, that other guy is nine and four, and this team looks pretty good, right? I understand that argument, and I think it's totally reasonable. I also think that this team has issues that that Browns team does not. If Drew Samia was the right guard for Kevin Stefanky's Cleveland Browns, I don't know how much of this is happening. There's a skill set and there's a group of talent there

that really is able to run that system incredibly well, even without Odell Beckham. I think that the Vikings had to play through some early growing pains with some young players on that offense that the Browns didn't necessarily have to deal with. And he was pretty ready-made to drop Baker Mayfield into that. So I just think Gary Kubiak is a very good coach and even if the pillar of Kevin Stefanski and having him as that foundation of your franchise is more appealing than how old is Mike Zimmer now 60 something

64 I think maybe yeah so then having 64 year old mike zimmer and gary kubiak who is younger than you think he is i think gary's only like 59 but he's been around for so long but those are guys that yes like they're mainstays and it's hard to get excited about those guys even when they do a decent job and you see the shiny new thing that is kevin stefanski and i completely understand why you'd want to attach yourself to that. But I also think that it's not a guarantee that he'd be getting that much more out of this offense than Gary Kubiak has so far this season. Got a great holiday deal to tell you about from SodaStick. If you use the promo code PURPLEINSIDER15,

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whether it's me sitting in the press box at U.S. Bank Stadium, a very empty U.S. Bank Stadium, or if it's at home on your couch, which I've had to do this year for road games, Pepsi is the refreshment you need to power you through any game day because Pepsi isn't made for those who play the game, it's made for those who watch it. Pepsi, made for football watching. Go to madeforfootballwatching.com to check out the latest football watching content from Pepsi. Yeah, I think that's true. And I also think that the margins are thin in terms of like the games that they lost

and how close a lot of them were. And you have to ask yourself that little extra boost on the offense that little extra creativity modernist not running on second and long more than anyone in the NFL despite the fact you've been down in games a lot I mean they just like not having an obsession with a running back to the point where the guy probably next year is going to be so worn down he'll average three yards to carry like these things are the frustration of Vikings fans and the other point is too I wonder about just with Mike Zimmer and Kirk Cousins as a pairing like individually I think Mike Zimmer

is a top 10 head coach he's very competent in the role he's great on defense he's great at scheming he's great at teaching and he's proven that he can win a lot of games in the NFL. And Kirk Cousins is a good quarterback with a lot of talent. But you have a head coach who is afraid of Kirk Cousins and does not at all want him throwing the football. And here's – I got a stat for the evidence here. In the first half of games, Cousins' quarterback rating is like 86. And then they get behind, and then they let him throw, and it's like 117 in the second half this year.

I mean, it's just – It's the Russell Wilson corollary. That's right. Same idea. I think the head coach is terrified of the quarterback. It is an odd pairing. I think there are a lot of quarterbacks or a lot of teams in the NFL that would love to have Kirk Cousins.

And he's – Kirk Cousins is such an interesting case study. He's like the true north of quarterbacking. Like if you don't have a guy that's that good, you look at Kirk Cousins, you're like, God, I would love to have Kirk Cousins. And when you have Kirk Cousins, you do the opposite. You look at all the guys that are better than him and think, God, can't we get better than Kirk Cousins? He sits right there in the middle and he's never good enough for

anybody, but he's also too good for other teams. It's such a weird existence that he's always lived. No, you're right because the Vikings fans will look at, you know, Patrick Mahomes, which everyone does, or Deshaun Watson or Drew Brees, and they'll point to here are the differences between those guys and your guy, and here's why those guys win and here's why your guy doesn't. But that's kind of always been the league anyway. Like, did anyone check the AFC from, like, 2000 to maybe 2015 and how it was always Peyton Manning, Ben Roethlisberger, or Tom Brady? I mean, that's not really going to change.

But the one thing about having Cousins and making sure you maximize him is that every team that's made the Super Bowl since 2015 in that Denver team has been a top five scoring offense. It's the way you get there. And you don't get there by handing off 30 times a game. You don't get to be a top five scoring offense. I wonder about this pairing and whether if Cousins had his Kyle Shanahan back or he had somebody that would let him let loose, that yes, he would make mistakes, and yes, he would have those bad games where he'd go WTF, Kirk, but at the same time, that's the only way to get to the party that you want to get let into.

We had this conversation on our show on Sunday, and I'm curious your thoughts about it. I like the Vikings. I like what they've done. And I think that even this group is an intriguing core of talent. If it's Thielen, Jefferson, Cook, Cousins, Brian O'Neill, Garrett Bradbury, whatever the offensive line looks like, I think they'll probably make an upgrade or two there. We always say that, right? Every single year, they'll make an upgrade or two there, Garrett Bradbury, whatever the offensive line looks like, I think they'll probably make an upgrade or two there. We always say that, right, every single year. They'll make an upgrade or two there.

But the offense, I think, has been okay, and you'd think Jefferson can even keep ascending, whatever. The defense, some of it's aging, but if you keep the development of the guys in the secondary, let's say you get Daniel Hunter back, you figure out the pass portion of what you have this year, it's still a top-ten unit. Are the Vikings going to keep tinkering with this group, again,

going into next season, convince themselves, oh, if we do this and we do that, maybe we will be contenders like they have for the last three or four years. And if they do that, are Vikings fans just bound to be disappointed again? I don't know the answer because I tend to like that team because your point about the offense is correct, right? But I think you have to change your thinking a little bit when you're confident that your coaching staff can build you a top 10 defense every single year. And even after the early struggles, they're a top 10 defense again.

So that's my question is if you know you're going to have that and the offense you just need to be good enough, are you going to talk yourself into that equation yet again if you were the Vikings going into 2021 after you fall short this year? Because it kind of feels like we're headed toward like round seven of this exact same dialogue we've had about this team, essentially since Mike Zimmer took over it feels like right and we're that's exactly right is having the same conversations all the way down to the left guard

still going into draft season being like you know is there a left guard in the top 12 or whatever who's trading up for the top left guard I mean this is the only franchise in the world that obsesses over one position like that but it is remarkable how it's always the interior offensive line we're talking about. It's always can you get enough offense to get past that level of just being a playoff team. It's always how far can a defense actually carry you. And the reason that they signed Kirk Cousins, the press conference where they signed Kirk Cousins, the justification was if we have another defensive struggle like they did in Philadelphia in 2017, like the defense struggles, then we need a quarterback who can overcome it. But that's not how they ever play, though. They don't really play as they're going to give it to the quarterback

and let him turn it loose, and then the defense will help him out it's always it's got to be uh you know defense first and then if we need the quarterback then we go to the left of the bullpen or something and that's not usually what you want to have if you're going to be a Super Bowl team so I think you end up getting stuck in sort of like the Marvin Lewis conundrum of your team is good your team is competitive When someone else is playing your team, they're like, we've got a tough matchup. That's a well-coached team. That's a good quarterback over there. And you're going to win eight, nine, ten,

but you're never going to get the one seed, and you're never going to have home field throughout the playoffs, and you're never going to get to the Super Bowl with the Andy Dalton, A.J. Green, good defense type of thing. I think that Kirk Cousins is better than Andy Dalton, A.J. Green, good defense type of thing. I think that Kirk Cousins is better than Andy Dalton. Oh, yeah, I agree. But I still think that Alex Smith, the Andy Dalton, like that's like the sort of area you're talking about locking yourself into.

Well, all these guys fall into the same category, right? If you actually look at the numbers, it's actually really funny. And even like Mike Sandoon as the quarterback tears to the athletic, it's a similar thing where all of the play action quarterbacks are in the exact same space. So, and you know, the group it's Tannehill, Garoppolo, Cousins, Goff. And now I think you probably put Baker Mayfield in there when you look at a lot of the numbers and even the way he's playing right now and those are quarterbacks that you win with not that you win because of and i remember talking to rick spielman about this after they signed kurt cousins and the idea was after that 2017 season that they believed cousins was on a different plane than case keenum and teddy bridgewater

and he could give them something different and i think you you're right, and in a lot of ways, going back to the Russell Wilson conversation, remember when I watched that 2000 – God, I'm just getting so old now. What year was the Dallas game, the Dallas-Seattle game in the playoffs? Was that after the 2018 season? That would have been – was that 2018? Yeah, 2018. Where Dallas beat Seattle, you mean?

Yes. So I was at that game, and I remember thinking at that game, because that was right before Russell Wilson was going to sign his contract. And I remember sitting there thinking, you can't run an offense like this if you're going to pay your quarterback $35 million a year because you're marginalizing him so much that he no longer becomes worth it even if his talent dictates that he is worth it right and i think that we're kind of in a similar

boat with the way that some of these quarterbacks are being used whether it's golf or tannahill or even kirk cousins the tannahill thing is a slightly different conversation because it's the best possible version of this offense they're're a top five offense. They have it supercharged to every single level. But I think that Goff and Cousins are, at some point, if Baker gets paid and they're still running this system, fall into a similar conversation. If you take them outside of the structure that you provided for them, Or if you start throwing enough to warrant that contract, are you going to be as efficient? You start talking yourself in circles.

And I think that's the difficulty with this is that, like you said, quarterbacks are so often a product of their circumstances. And if you have one of those, I don't know, what do you think the number is? If there are, let's say, five or six guys that transcend their circumstances and ten guys that are going to be bad no matter what, do we have ten guys that are a product of those circumstances? If you have ten of those guys in the middle, how do you build around that in the most successful way possible?

I think that's the $10 million question associated with structuring your roster in 2020. I think we have the answer, which is make sure he's cheap, right? I mean, Cleveland is a great example. I mean, they, Sheldon Richardson, right? The Vikings couldn't afford to keep Sheldon Richardson. So Cleveland says, we've got a bunch of money. We've got a bunch of cap space because our quarterback is on a rookie contract. And so if you were to make an argument to move on from Kirk Cousins, trade him to somebody else the best case would be look I mean you never really wanted to give him the keys to the car anyway nobody says he's not good I mean he's a good quarterback and he puts up huge numbers and he makes throws down the field and all that but can you afford to win the way you want to win

if you have him can you build that top 10 defense that you're talking about because it really can't be top 10 if you're going to win the Super Bowl it's got to be like top three if you're and that's the problem right right is that that window for this defense is gone right and that's why the 2017 season is so it sparkles in the eyes of Vikings fans in the way that it does and it's almost such a letdown and I just I think back to that moment I was at the NFC championship game that year were you there I was yep yeah I remember being there and just being so struck by what it felt like to know that the Vikings had lost that chance with that team that they had because it was a special team and to have them get jumped on by that Eagles team I mean I feel like my tone probably

mirrors that of Vikings fans when you look at it longingly because they knew what it could be I mean that defense was special and now it's not now it's merely very good and I think that leads to an entirely different set of questions so if you were the Vikings if you were Rick Spielman right now and John Lynch calls you you know on February 26th he's like hey we're moving on from Jimmy what would it take to get Kirk would you take it too if you're the Vikings would you do that I think that I would in part because I'm not locked into Jimmy either right like his contract situation contract situation, you can get – Oh, you can't trade Jimmy. Jimmy has no trade clause.

Oh, he's a no trade. Oh, you're talking about just straight up for – I thought Jimmy was involved with this. Okay. No, that's part of the issue. I think if you're Minnesota, you do that 100 times out of 100. You take Garoppolo and the pick because then you can get out of it whatever. But it was a very smart move by Garoppolo's agent.

Yes. And he knew that when the dead money was all gone, I'm putting a no trade clause in because you're either cutting me or you're keeping me. And I think it's a really, really shrewd choice by him. So I thought in your hypothetical, Garoppolo waived it because he wants to, I don't know, play with Justin Jefferson or something. But would I do it? The answer is yes, because I just think that that's the way to get to the promised land. And if you screw up – What are you then?

That's my question. What are you? Who plays quarterback if it's not Kirk Cousins? I don't think if you – listen. As a man who has trudged through the quarterback wilderness for 33 years as a Bears fan yeah it's cold out there it is it's real cold and if you're going to move on from Kirk Cousins and you have this defense that has a core that even if it's not as good as it once was is still Eric Hendricks and Harrison Smith and Dean Hunter when he's back and Anthony Barr when he's healthy and you have that group, if you draft somebody,

you're not even in a position to draft somebody. So what avenue do you have toward a Super Bowl with this group that's better than the one you'd have with Kirk Cousins? I'm not sure it exists. Well, I mean, one thing it might involve just moving up. Like you've got to get one of the top four quarterbacks in the draft. You've got to get maybe it's Trey Lance or Zach Wilson's probably going way up there, Justin Fields, but you might have to move way up and use a lot of your draft capital in order to

do it. But I think that Buffalo might be a good example of a team that is run really well, makes a lot of great choices, and has two wide receivers who beat man coverage every time and are open. And that's the one thing about this quarterback situation. If you were dropped into it as a rookie or someone on a rookie contract, maybe you even have a filler quarterback for one year that, you know, you pick up and you play for 2021. But in this hypothetical situation, you can put this quarterback in a situation where he's got Brian O'Neal is a

really nice offensive line piece. You've drafted another two guys in the first two rounds in the offensive line. You have two elite wide receivers. I don't think Adam Thielen falls off the face of the earth anytime soon. You can give him Irv Smith. Assuming Delvin Cook remains good, you give him one of the best running backs in the entire NFL. Like the guy can inherit a throne of gold and be kind of like Baker Mayfield or Josh Allen. I don't think either Baker Mayfield or Josh Allen is John Elway. I don't think either one of them is stupendously special.

I think both of them are good enough to have their teams be right there in the mix. And if Kansas city didn't exist, you'd be calling them, you know, potential Superbowl teams. So, and then, you know, every once in a while you hit on your Mahomes

and then the guy's a franchise quarterback forever. With Cousins, you know exactly what the ceiling is, and you know that your coach doesn't really want to play the way that you have to play to maximize everything that Kirk Cousins has. Thinking about all of this, I'm really trying to consider it. I love the dramatic pause. Because I'm looking at the salary cap table. I'm looking at the of this. I'm really trying to consider it. I love the dramatic pause. Because I'm looking at the salary cap table. I'm looking at the salary cap table right now.

And because I understand where you're going with this, but I think that to move up for a guy, you have to be really secure in the way that you built your roster elsewhere. And that's why I feel like a team like the Colts could do it. Because if you look at the Colts, they have all these young ascending pieces and they don't have a lot of holes. You know, there are no, we need a left guard considerations on the Colts. That's not real.

They have every piece. I think that offensive line is the best example, right? Where you just need functionality at every single spot. And I think that the Vikings probably have an argument now that they have that, but that's the important thing. And that's why I think that the bills are really good example too. The bills use their free agent money and they spread it out. They said, we're going to get four new interior offensive linemen.

We're going to snap the pool cue in half and give it to you dark knife style and one two men enter one man leaves you're the offensive line and if you can have functionality there it's important and brandon bean he lives by this he doesn't make big swings in free agency he takes the money that they have from the josh allen contract and spreads it across and gives himself multiple base roles. And because you do that, you have fewer holes. I don't know if the Vikings have a strong enough roster top to bottom to rationalize giving up what it would take to get into the top 10 of the draft and pick somebody.

I don't know if they're in that position. You could argue that they might be, but I'm not sure they're as secure in that spot as a team like Buffalo. I think Buffalo has made it palatable by the way they've built, and I think that the Colts are in that position right now. And I'm not sure if the Vikings can get there and mirror that sort of success. Maybe they can. 2020 has already reshaped how we work, and it's almost over. Businesses across the globe are challenged to be their most efficient, which means every hire is critical. Indeed is here to help. Indeed is the

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Like, you know, Terrence Newman is a guy that Zimmer brings in. He's not a megastar, but he's just good at his job. And they had players like that. Even Linval Joseph became a superstar and a pro bowler. But when they first got him, it was more like, oh, they're signing like a solid guy.

And then they developed him even more and gave him more opportunity. And then he becomes a great player. Even the in-house guys were cheap then. Like the Daniel Hunter contract is his agent should be fired. It's the same way. Fee one was dirt cheap back then. So it was kind of funny. They made those signings.

They just happened to be their own players, which, I mean, it's really similar though. Right, right. But, I mean, it's a difficult needle to thread. And I always want to acknowledge this, that I can say that. Here's what I would do, this, this, this, this, and this, but I don't get fired for saying it, right? And even if you think that rolling those dice are better, you know, Rick Spielman wants to keep his job. And Kirk Cousins is a job-keeping quarterback. I mean, he is, I think it's exactly like Alex Smith in Kansas City, where even when it's bad, he's still, this year it's bad. And you're 6-7, and you're in the playoff race, and he's going to keep you there. And in 2017 in Washington, their team is terrible,

and they're 7-9, and they were in the playoff race. And that's just how it ends up going. So before I let you go, I love the conversation. I love when we get into it like that. Who's going to win the Super Bowl? Who's going to the Super Bowl? Two teams, two squads. You're going to pick Kansas City? Got to pick Kansas City. Who's playing Kansas City? I think it's the Packers. And I think it's the Packers for this reason. I think that the bye is extremely important. And it's more important than it's ever

been. And if you look at it, even home field advantage, I don't think is that big, but playing one more game matters. And who knows what what drew breeze's health is going to look like i just think that the offense that the packers are trotting out there every single week is enough to carry them there and maybe it's because i want to see aaron rogers play against patrick mahomes in the super bowl just because i think that's an unbelievably fun game but that's in my opinion i think that's what happens because i don't know if anyone outside of Buffalo can give the Chiefs a real fight in the AFC. And I think that the reason I put the Bills in that category is because Josh Allen's volatility, in a good way, I think gives them a puncher's chance in a way that these other teams that are dependent on offensive structure and game script don't. It doesn't matter if you get up two touchdowns against the Chiefs

or you get down two touchdowns against the Chiefs. I think that the Bills have the best chance of staving them off. Yeah. No, I agree. I think that they're the strongest team. And the fact that they have this philosophy where they throw it to Diggs all the time, it works. Just just saying so I am so I'm my victory laugh about Stephon Diggs has been truly enjoyable I mean same honestly like right I mean if you were really watching and you were really talking to people you knew this was going to happen I he's one of my favorite players in the entire league to watch and i

that's not i have receipts you know i wrote about it back in the spring when they made the trade why i thought that it was a potentially transformative move it's honestly he's done less of the types of things he did in minnesota than i expected him to do like last year he led the nfl in deep receiving yards and his true his truly exceptional trait as a receiver is his ability to track the ball in the air like he's a very good round runner he gets open he creates separation all the things but if you talk to people who coached him that is where he truly separates himself and he hasn't done any of that i mean he's i think like 30th or 35th in the nfl in yards on deep this year. They haven't used him in that way.

He's been much more of an underneath option. He almost is Keenan Allen just supercharged in that offense. I didn't expect that necessarily. But the fact that he's able to do that and be a slightly different version of the player that we saw in Minnesota and still be a star, I think speaks to just how truly great he is. Yeah, you look at his usage from even 2018 to 2019, it changed in Minnesota. So it's really, it's fascinating that he can handle any type of role. Make sure that you follow the Athletic Football Show and former AAF personnel man,

Nate Tice is on it with you. And follow Robert, I'm sure that you already do, at Robert Mays on Twitter. It's always great to catch up with you. And I love the fact that you end an appearance in Minnesota talking about how Stephon Diggs is great, the Packers are going to win the Super Bowl, but I'll tell everyone that you made up for it by wearing a North Stars hat. You have a North Stars hat on.

There's a lot going on. A lot going on. An unbiased appearance. Thanks a lot Stars hat. You have a North Stars hat on. So that kind of There's a lot going on. A lot going on. Right. An unbiased appearance. Thanks a lot, Robert. Great to catch up with you, buddy. Always, bud.