Purple Insider - a Minnesota Vikings and NFL podcast - Who's doing their roster build better, the Vikings or Lions?

Episode Date: December 22, 2023

Matthew Coller and Manny Hill dive deep into the Vikings and Lions decisions that have brought them to this place and what the plans going forward for the two clubs is going to be. Plus the Rams winning is a problem for the Vikings and we talk about future QB types for Kevin O'Connell, both draft and "bridge" Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome to another episode of Purple Insider. Matthew Collar here, and you can see why the show was a little bit later than usual, because I am dressed up very slick and beautiful, coming from a dinner that went a little bit longer than I expected. So I wanted to keep the suit jacket on just long enough to prove, this is the proof, that that's why the show started a little bit late and also that i don't always just wear like a hoodie or a t-shirt that i actually am capable of dressing up a little bit got a nice sweater that my wife got for me got the jacket same one the only one that i own same one that i got married in and uh so i'm looking cute but i'll take this off so we can get

informally football manny but uh thanks for your patience in waiting for me to get back home and now we're good to go i woke up this morning at four o'clock los angeles time flew out here went out to the vikings recorded another podcast that'll be up on the channel soon enough, talked to Justin Jefferson, a few offensive linemen, went to an important dinner, and now I'm back, and guess what? Still talking ball. I did get a small nap in there. So I'm ready for this conversation, and I'm actually excited about this conversation. How are you, Manny? I'm good, man. I'm impressed with your, I mean, I've known you for seven years and, and, uh, you know, I've known, I've always known you to be a very hard worker.

Uh, and I'm just even more and more impressed with your, um, your wholehearted dedication, man. I love it. It's great. It's, you know, it's not, it's not too hard to talk football. I saw in the comments because there was if people didn't see it a couple of videos ago, I was struggling to figure out how to set up in the dark at my in-laws house. And because their overhead light didn't work, I was kind of like in a back storage room basically. And the overhead light didn't work. So all I had was a desk light. It was like, do I point it at myself? Do I point it away? And so it looked like that one horror movie where all the people point the lights at their faces or whatever.

What is that one where they run around in the woods? You know what I'm talking about? Oh, Blair Witch. Blair Witch. Yeah, yeah. Yes, yes, yes. The Blair Witch. That's what it looked like.

And so people in the comments were like, oh, well, you know, thanks for grinding through whatever. I was like, I tried, I'm just trying to bring you a football talk here, but I would not of course, miss a chance to talk ball with you, Manny Hill. So I think I've got an interesting discussion here because as it pertains to the game, uh, there's going to be other podcasts that break that down in terms of the X's and O's and who's going to win and who's going to lose. But I am most fascinated in football by front offices, the decisions they make, the strategies they take on. And in this battle right here, we have two teams that one in 2021

and the other in 2022 decided on very definitive paths. One of them, the Detroit Lions, said, we are tanky McTankerson. We are going down to the bottom of the ocean here. We're going to draft good players, and we're going to build. And they've done it. They've been an argument for tanking. Just two years later, here they are leading their division, 10-4, an opportunity to win a few games at the end of the season. I mean, going to the playoffs with 11 or 12 wins, leading their division 10-4, an opportunity to win a few games at the end of the season.

I mean, going to the playoffs with 11 or 12 wins, it would be a huge, huge victory for Brad Holmes, their general manager, and just their strategy in general. And then you have the Vikings, who deferred their rebuilding by a year, by after firing Mike Zimmer, put the onus on Kevin O'Connell to change the culture. They put the onus on Casey Daffo Mensah to create a competitive team that could chase potentially a Superbowl last year and then said, okay, now you get to rebuild it, but you don't get to rebuild it without Kirk or without Daniel Hunter. So that means you've still got to win, but you can move on from these other older players and you're doing the half one foot in one foot out. And then you don't have to extend Kirk

cousins, which means that your future is pretty open. And so I want to, I want to talk in depth about these decisions, Manny, because I think what the Detroit Lions did after firing Matt Patricia and not just trying to hire somebody else and run it back with Matthew Stafford and just fail by going nine and seven or nine and eight or whatever at absolute best six and 10 at worst somewhere in that range where they had been for so long trying to build around Stafford that it's put them in this position. But I also feel like what the Vikings did has put them in a good position for the future if the right decision is made at the quarterback position. So before we kind of dive into the arguments for each team and who did it better, give me your thoughts on broadly the comparison between what these two teams decided to do. Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, I think just taking it from the Vikings perspective

because it's the team that I've been obviously being here in Minnesota and growing up a Vikings fan, it's a team I pay the most attention to. It's weird because they have been, for the most part, during the Kirk Cousins era, have been sort of middling around that mediocre spot amongst the middling teams in the NFL. And they've had a couple of seasons where they've sort of popped up and made the playoffs, but they didn't really do a lot after that. 2019, they were able to win a playoff game and move on to the second round where they got drilled by the 49ers. And then last year with a new coach, you know, they had a season where they probably overachieved a little bit, won a

lot of close games, won the division, but kind of went belly up in the playoffs because they couldn't stop the Giants. And, you know, I think with that approach, it does kind of make things a little bit more challenging to try and get to that next level, because every year you're thinking, well, we're just one player away. We just make a move for this one guy and we make this move and we'll get them and then everything's going to be fine they've been doing that for most of the Kirk Cousins era and I think the what they've done now by not doing the things that we had been seeing them do for the previous you know four seasons under Kirk before Kwesi came aboard was they didn't really do a lot

of extensions on some of the older players they you know they were it was a little bit more I hate to use I hate to use the term cutthroat you know what I mean but you know they made some they had to make some really difficult decisions to um you know that a lot of people in the fan base you know a lot of people love Adam Thielen they didn't want to see Adam Thielen go but it was the right move to make a lot of people in the fan base, you know, a lot of people love Adam Thielen. They didn't want to see Adam Thielen go, but it was the right move to make. A lot of people love Eric Kendricks, but it was the right move to make to move on from him as he's gotten a little older in his career. And I think they've done a really nice job, you know, despite, you know, having to make those tough decisions and despite kind of being in that mediocre spot of putting themselves in a position where

if they do make some really smart, shrewd moves over the next couple of years, they can be right back in this conversation of being a serious Super Bowl contender. So I think, you know, what they've done, what Kwasi's done over the last couple of years, and, you know, we can nitpick draft picks and certain signings and those type of things. But I think overall, when you look at the opportunity this team is going to have now going into next offseason, it's a pretty good spot to be in. The Lions, obviously, as you mentioned, have taken a completely different approach.

But I think it's an approach that we've seen a lot of other teams around the NFL do, and it's worked. We've seen the Cincinnati Bengals tank, and now just within a couple of years, they were literally in the Super Bowl and possibly a drive away from winning it. And so you look at what the miami dolphins have done from tanking a couple years ago and they got things turned around pretty quickly made a coaching change but they're you know arguably the best offense in the nfl and they've got an opportunity to go on a deep playoff run if things go their way um so i i think with with both approaches

have have been really solid i think the v the Vikings deserve a lot of credit for getting themselves in this position to possibly get back into this championship contending mix, despite kind of doing it sort of an unconventional way from what we've talked about with teams tanking. So I think both routes have been solid, but they've obviously been very different. I want to talk about some of the nuances of the way the teams went about it because from the Detroit Lions side, the rare part of their rebuild is Jared Goff.

It is, I don't want to say completely unprecedented, but darn near unprecedented to see a team rebuild of that magnitude. And maybe we should just like not use the word tank and just talk about it in the phases of a rebuild. I mean, clearly it was a tank. They tore everything apart and lost the first, what, eight games of the season, then had a tie or something. And then their first win came against the Vikings in 2021. It was a tank, but really what we're talking about here is a full complete rebuild versus a half rebuild versus the Zimmer era where it was fiddling around in the middle for several years after they were in a winning window and couldn't admit they were out of their

winning window. So those are like the phases of the NFL. You're either completely rebuilding, half rebuilding, fooling yourself or competing for a Super Bowl. And that's pretty much it. Right. And fooling yourself was 2020 and 2021 for sure for the Vikings. But with Jared Goff, what he added for a different dynamic here was that they had their quarterback in place that they knew would be good enough to make them a fairly competitive team throughout. That even when they were losing a lot of games early on, it's not like they were ever losing 50-0. I think the Vikings had to beat that team early in the year with a last-second goal. The one where Kirk like shook Mike Zimmer or something like they were competing week in and week out because they had a good enough quarterback. They just were coming up short. And then by the end of the season, they get a couple wins. Golf starts playing a little bit better, but they were able to evaluate everything

that they had on the team because their quarterback was good enough. And then as soon as they got some players, I'm in Ross St. Brown shows up. They get a couple offensive linemen in there, Penny Sewell. And then it's last year where they can compete pretty legitimately, especially in the second half of the year, because they have golf. They didn't have to spend a first round, first overall pick, top three pick on the quarterback position just to get somebody. They were able to have a good quarterback in place. So as soon as the roster was built around him, they would be, they would be there. The quarterback is always the hardest thing to get

usually where you can find receivers. You could find tight ends. You could find pass rushers. And especially if you get multiple first round draft picks that some of them, if even some of them hit now, they've had a lot of them hit, but if even some of them hit and some don't, you're, you're going to be in good shape. But if you have to spend, if you get a number two overall pick on your quarterback, that's a little bit harder. I think not impossible because we saw Joe Burrow do it. We saw CJ Stroud do it, but the fact that they could get aiden hutchinson that high and that they

could have two first round draft picks this last year and spend them on or was it even three it was was it three first round graphics or was it two it might have been two uh but maybe it was it was like four picks in the top 50 or something and none of them had to be spent on a quarterback so that that part is really something. And then from the Vikings perspective, tearing it down after 13 wins is so unusual. You just never see anything like that. Teams always run it back. And with Aaron Rogers leaving the division, it made it even more bold not to try to bring those guys back and screw themselves in the future. But now the Vikings stand in a position.

I'll give you a comparison here. When the bucks signed Tom Brady, that's the position. I feel like the Vikings are in where everything is there, except for the quarterback position, except there's no Tom Brady. Who's becoming a free agent. Unless he wants to come back,

feel free Tom. But there's no Tom Brady to join them and make them like a legitimate Super Bowl contender right away, which leaves them in this sort of mysterious world. So even though a lot of it has worked and a lot of players have developed, we know what the Lions are going to do in the next couple of years. With the Vikings, we know a lot less because so much of it hinges just on what they end up doing at quarterback and whether it works or not. Absolutely.

Like you said, the Lions making the trade with the Los Angeles Rams to get Jared Goff and also getting the two first-round picks as well in that Matthew Stafford trade. You know, it was almost like they traded for three first round picks because you could argue like, well, we got Jared Goff and he was like another first round pick that we would have used on a quarterback. And he just so happened to be a guy that was young enough to where he was just kind of starting to enter, you know, the prime of his career. And he had enough years under his belt to where he had kind of developed into a pretty good quarterback.

The Rams were looking for more, looking for an upgrade, which they did with Matthew Stafford. But Goff was good enough. And he's a guy that had led a team to a Super Bowl already. We saw that back in 2018. So you know he's capable. You just have to kind of surround him with a lot of talent, a good offensive line, good weapons to throw to, and a defense that can get you enough stops.

And the Lions have done that. And now Jared Goff is, you know, he's really kind of turned his career around in the last couple of years. And, you know, now they're in a really good spot with the Vikings. You know, it is going to come down to what we've been talking about, what they do with that quarterback position. And it's going to be so vital for them to whatever, whatever route they choose to go.

If they want to go and get a veteran in free agency, if they want to bring Kirk Cousins back, if they want to use a first round draft pick, they may have to move up, you know, use up draft capital to move up. Whatever decision that they go, it has to be the right one. They can't swing and miss on it. But if they swing and hit a home run, they're in a great position to be really good for a while with a lot of the other young players that they have, not just on offense, but on the defensive side as well. I mean, that's the thing that makes this so interesting is because now you have,

because of the way that the two teams have done it, you have the Vikings feeling like they are a year or two away from being where the Lions are right now. And yeah, OK, If they beat the lions twice, that gap's going to feel a lot closer. I have a tough time thinking that's going to happen. Maybe it will. Like we do see some strange meltdowns from the Detroit lions franchise. It's kind of what they're known for. It could, that could always happen, but just following along the two teams timelines that this year feels like last year for Detroit in Minnesota, if that makes sense. So the Lions going 9-8 after dealing with a very slow start to the season,

some major issues on defense, just the team starting to progress and come along and so forth, and getting to 9-8 was a victory for them. And beating the Packers on that last day, oftentimes I would argue, progress and come along and so forth. And getting to nine and eight was a victory for them and beating the Packers on that last day. Like oftentimes I would argue, okay, none of that matters. Week 17, week 18, we'll never remember it, but that was so meaningful and memorable to them to go there and play the way they did for Dan Campbell and, and fight to the end and eliminate the Packers. And it was on national TV and everybody remembered it. And it was a sign of the things to come for them. I don't know how the Vikings are going to end this season, but the sign of things to come to me, even in a loss was Jordan Addison and Justin Jefferson

and TJ Hawkinson all having fantastic days along with maybe a running back who I'm becoming more and more intrigued by the more that he touches the football. And so you're seeing it. It's not there to be talking about Superbowl odds. The Vikings, by the way, on DraftKings have the 20th best Superbowl odds. So just, you know, I mean, I'm not saying it can't happen, but if you're this late in the season and you're 20th, that probably means that nobody really thinks you can go that deep in the playoffs. And that's fair with Nick Mullins, a quarterback. It's just that when you look at from a rebuild perspective, there's so many

foundational pieces in place for the Vikings that this can be your nine and eight year. And then next year, depending on what you do with the quarterback position, it could be a much more competitive year, or it might be one where you're hoping that a rookie quarterback does some things that Dak Prescott has done. Brock Purdy has done in the past, but it could be another year that you go nine and eight, but it's a nine and eight with Michael Penix.

And you feel like that is, so it's, is it a year or is it two years? Or are you trading for Kyler Murray? And then it's all in, like all chips to the middle of the table. Like the Vikings rebuild path is much less clear and defined because of that quarterback position. Is it a year from now? Is it two years from now? And what is the salary cap implications?

Does Kirk come back? And then it's all in on trying to win for next year. There's a lot of different ways you could interpret that. But here's what I wanted to do, Manny, because I really enjoy this discussion so much about teams and their decisions, timelines. I want to play the role of the general managers, Brad Holmes, GM of Detroit. That's you. Kweisi Adafo-Mensah, taller than me, slightly more educated, but I could still put myself in his shoes. I could still try. So I will be him. You be Brad Holmes. And I want us to make the argument for the rebuilds working better or for the future going better.

And that can even include if you Brad Holmes want to argue that you can win the super bowl this year. So if you were arguing for, let's just even say which one of these teams wins more playoff games over the next three years, you argue as if you are Brad Holmes. I will argue as if I'm crazy. So convince me that the lions win more playoff games in the next three years

than the Vikings. Go. Well, you know, I mean, it's pretty simple. I mean, hell, I think we've got an opportunity to win a playoff game just this year. I mean, even if we end up playing you guys, the Vikings, in the first round of the playoffs, I like our chances to come away with a victory of that because we're going to win the NFC North. We've got the better quarterback. We've got the better overall team. And I think we've got a pretty good shot. And hell, I think if we get an opportunity to go on the road, you know, the Lions, this franchise historically hasn't always been very good on the road, especially when it comes to the postseason. I think we've got a decent shot, you know, to go on the road. The Philadelphia

Eagles don't look as strong as they were last year, a Super Bowl team. They're still very good, but I don't think Lincoln Financial Field is as tough a place to play as it has been, you know, in recent years. So I think we can win a home playoff game against the Vikings or the Rams or whoever we end up playing and then go on the road and possibly make a run to the NFC Championship game. We've got a young quarterback who's still really good, and we've got a defense that can make some plays at times. We've got a really good overall foundation on offense,

and our head coach believes in our players. And I think when you look at the players, what we've done in the draft the last few years, getting Panay Sewell, who's been a staple part of our offensive line, who's one of the best units in this league, Aidan Hutchinson, who's an excellent pass-rushing defensive end out of the university of michigan and this is where crazy this is where i'm gonna really pat myself on the back you know people are gonna give me a hard time for the jameson williams pick you know he had things haven't quite worked out for him yet in his first you know year and a half in the league he's dealt with some injuries and he had a suspension early in the year for some stuff he should have been doing off the field, all that stuff. I get all that.

But look what I did in the 2021 NFL draft in the fourth round. I took Amon Ross St. Brown, one of the best and most productive wide receivers in this league. He's been excellent since his rookie year in 2021. Now he's in his third year, and he's just making all sorts of plays all over the field. So we've got a really good foundation here, and I'm going to pat myself on the back. We've done a great job building this team. I think Dan Campbell has done a great job leading the way for this team and instilling confidence in this roster. We're set up for years to come.

We've made all the right moves, and we've got a lot of really young players that are going to continue to get better and better over the next couple of years. So I think we've got a real strong shot of being a real strong Super Bowl contender over the next three years. This show is being brought to you by BetterHelp. Folks, the holidays are an exciting time for buying gifts and spending time with family, but you have to remember that sometimes the best gift is the one you can give yourself. If you're finding the holiday season tough on you, maybe the best gift is paying a little

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visit betterhelp.com slash insider today to get 10 off your first month that's better help h-e-l-p.com slash insider i like that you went immediately into character. You were like, I am Brad Holmes. And I was thinking of, because when we do this show on YouTube Live, people pop in and pop out, of course. And so somebody pops in and they hear you like, we have Jared Goff. And you're like, what? We did what? But you know what?

I think if you are Brad Holmes, which I know I might, I might have to call you Brad for the rest of the show because you get into character there. But if you're Brad Holmes, you're looking at San Francisco and Dallas as teams who have been consistently competitive over a number of years and just kept adding pieces. So Dallas, even specifically, if you're Detroit, you're looking at a quarterback in Dak Prescott, who is similar to Jared Goff. Dak Prescott has become a true pocket quarterback who has his weaknesses, but picks teams apart when he's at his best. He is, I mean, just incredible at picking defenses apart, accurate,

great arm talent, great intellectual part of the game I think those two are very similar quarterbacks and can lead elite offenses but you're probably looking at Dallas as a comparison as a couple of years ago Dallas didn't have a very good defense and then they drafted Micah Parsons and you know Trayvon Diggs is out but you know Trayvon Diggs and they've spent some money on that side of the ball. And they've had to do everything they can to rebuild that. Brought in Stephon Gilmore. Kind of a crafty move for an older veteran there.

The Lions have to do the same thing. I don't think that they're quite there yet. Could they win a couple of playoff games? Yes. But I don't think they're quite strong enough to win the Super Bowl. But if you're making their three-year argument, a lot of the offensive pieces are set, especially the offensive line, the weapons that you mentioned.

So now it's pouring assets into the defensive side and making that stronger and stronger to where you can be a complete team. Because the funny thing about teams that go to the Super Bowl statistically is they're usually good at everything. That's the key marker. Just be good at everything and you've got a chance. Now, if I am Kweisi Adafo-Mensa, my argument that the Vikings will win more is on the defensive side, we have seen, and I don't know what Brian Flores' future is, he's vital to this, but we've seen so many new pieces show up that are going to be here for a while and already way overachieve and produce.

Ultimately, this thing probably ends up like a top 10 defense. That's something the Lions have not been able to do, is produce a top 10 defense that could stay together for a long time. Hunter's situation is unclear, but look at everybody else. You don't have to give up Josh Metellus, Cam Bynum for quite some time. Ivan Pace Jr. These are guys who are young that are going to be here year after year that they can build upon. So they've got that. They have an offensive line that could stay together.

Left guard, we'll see, but could stay together. And every one of the other guys that is a key weapon is young. They're in their prime. Jordan Addison is going to be cheap for years. TJ Hawkinson is under contract. I believe Justin Jefferson this offseason will sign a contract. None of this is going to go anywhere. It's all in place. And that when you look around the league, and this would be maybe his strongest point, when you look around the league and you go, all right, Jalen Hurts has gone from a second-round pick to a star. Brock Purdy is the last pick of the draft to a star.

Dak Prescott, fourth-round pick to a star. What do all of these guys have in common? They have offensive coaches. They have great receivers, great systems, great offensive lines. San Francisco has the best offensive lineman alive. So there's that, but they're a little ish sometimes, but mostly great. These quarterbacks don't have to be perfect do we think that jalen hurts is a perfect quarterback i don't think so do we think that brock purdy is perfect like no i don't he's not patrick mahomes but in so many instances the supporting cast and tua is another great example this the supporting cast is so vital and maybe even more than ever it has been before is so vital if you

don't have Mahomes or Brady or Peyton Manning or so forth that you can prop up a quarterback or I should say maximize because that's unfair to Brock Purdy he made the throws like what is he supposed to try to throw to someone less open like you know you know, oh, sorry, I threw to the wide open guy for a touchdown, penalized me for it that he was open. I never understand those arguments. How much credit should Brock Purdy get? A lot. He threw all the touchdowns.

You can't take them away from him. Anyway, the point just being that there are so many instances of this that if you're the Vikings, you should be saying, if we find our Michael Penix and he can be that guy, that distributor, like these other quarterbacks are, everything else is there for you. And all you need is to spend a little money on the defensive side and you've got something here. I think Manny, that these two teams should be one and two in the division for some time to come, unless Caleb Williams or Drake May becomes a megastar in Chicago. But suddenly this division going forward seems like it's going to be a problem. It seems like all of a sudden it goes from one of the maybe weakest divisions last year to two years from now being as strong as it gets in the NFL. Absolutely.

And, you know, if you factor in Chicago into that mix, if you get, you know, if they get a Drake May or Caleb Williams and one of those guys turns into a star and the Vikings hit on their guy, if they take Michael Penix in the second round or, you know, if they trade down in the first round, maybe get him at the end of the first round, however that plays out. And he ends up being really good. Now you've got two really good young quarterbacks in this division and another quarterback in Jared Goff, who's not so young, but still, you know, one of the better quarterbacks in the league. You know, whatever happens with Jordan Love, we'll see. I mean, maybe he gets better. I don't know.

But yeah, you get two young quarterbacks in this division, and if the Lions are that team that's sitting at the top that everybody's aiming for, that can be a lot of fun, man, and a lot of really competitive Vikings-Bears, Vikings-Lions Lions, Bears, Lions games. You know, we'll kind of see how things kind of play out for the Packers over the next couple of years. But this could be a lot of fun. And I think after watching the Packers dominate this division for so long with Aaron Rodgers and with Brett Favre before that, it'll be a nice sort of change to see, you know, some of these other teams kind

of step up and see like, okay, well, who's going to do the best job, you know, continuing to build their teams over the next couple of years? If the Lions, can the Lions maintain this over the next couple of years? Or will the Bears kind of come in and take over? Will the Vikings come in and take over? It's going to be a lot of fun to watch over the next couple years if some of these other teams outside of Detroit play their cards right. Yeah, I completely agree. Suddenly this division and its rivalries has shape-shifted with how it's worked for Detroit and where the Vikings are in their position.

So I know we've talked about this, and we've gotten into it with we've got, you know, we've gotten into it like with what they should do a quarterback. Should they bring back Kirk? You and I are enough on the same page that we don't need to dive into like all the reasons you wouldn't bring back Kirk Cousins. Part of it is like, they're going to need to spend some money on the defensive side, by the way, it's not even entirely about, it's never entirely about Kirk, but I was reading an article from Jeremy Fowler and Dan Graziano of ESPN about some of their buzz. And I am curious what the Vikings would think about a bridge quarterback, considering that there's been some

effective bridge quarterbacking this year, most notably Baker Mayfield with the Bucs. I thought that was going to be a disaster. I mean, I'll be honest. I thought that the Bucs were going to win like three games. And when the Vikings lost to them in week one, I was like, what a joke. And now it looks a lot less jokey because they're a 500 football team and Mayfield has played pretty well. They named three quarterbacks as potential next

year bridge. And another guy, Gardner Minshew, has put his team in position to potentially make the playoffs. So Baker Mayfield, Gardner Minshew, both free agents after this year. Minshew is definitely not going back to Indianapolis because Anthony Richardson will be the starter there. I don't know if Tampa Bay will keep Baker Mayfield, if they'll draft someone else. And then the other guy is Ryan Tannehill, who has been really good in his career when he's had great weapons over the last few years, those weapons dissipated AJ Brown most specifically, and he's been banged up and so forth, but they wanted to move on and they're a rebuilding team very much. But those three quarterbacks,

the question I would have, if you're the Vikings, because they are so much in competitive rebuild mode, does any of those three interest you as an idea to bring in cheaper? And I think on a mid-level deal that we just found out last year

kind of exists, well, still drafting a quarterback, but maybe it's not necessarily like spending all your draft picks middle of the table for draft pick quarterback x do you like the concept of a kirkian type that you think you can boost up and still be a playoff team still be a contender while also thinking toward the future of drafting a quarterback because all three of those guys pinged in my head as competitive rebuild quarterback that's not Kirk. Yeah, I will tell you, I looked at all three of those guys and I read that article. Gardner Minshew is the one that kind of intrigues me the most

because I feel like he would be the guy that would walk into a situation already knowing that he's not going to be the long-term franchise quarterback of a team, that he's going to be brought in to be the starter, to be a veteran guy that has had some success in the past, and he's also going to be a good teammate and help the back. Manny doing his weekly freeze act.

Come back, Manny. Just give him a second. He'll come back. Gardner Minshew is an interesting one to me because I wonder how much Gardner Minshew winning is Gardner Minshew is an interesting one to me because I wonder how much Gardner Minshew winning is Gardner Minshew because it's hard to find stats that... Oh, are you back, Manny? You got me?

Okay, your weekly freeze act. It's like once... It never fails. Does that mean that something crazy happened in the game tonight? No, it's still the Rams. Not good for the Vikings, the Rams winning, I think, if I'm remembering correctly. So you were making the argument for Gardner Minshew. And while you froze, I did point out that Minshew's numbers are pretty for Indianapolis, but he sort of like found a way to win.

But maybe with the situation that they have here, he would put up better numbers and he's proven that he can win in the NFL. So anyway, so carry on talking about Minshew. Yeah. I mean, Gardner is interesting to me because I, I think he, he's a guy that kind of seems like he recognizes who he is. And if you bring him in he's not going to be a guy that's like i'm the starter and i'm gonna be pissed off if you draft a guy to just you know i'm not going to train the younger guy because i'm the starter i'm supposed to be the guy like he seems like he

would be a really good soldier a good teammate and he would help the younger guy, whether it's Bo Nix or Michael Penix Jr., whoever you end up taking should you go that route. So he's the one that kind of intrigues me the most. Baker, I think, you know, out of the three guys, I think Baker's the most talented guy out of those three, and he's probably played the best out of those three this year i mean tanny hill's been banged up obviously and hasn't played in a while but um but i just sometimes with baker i wonder like if you bring him in is he gonna really understand the situation

like it's i think it's pretty easy for him to be a good soldier in tampa because they don't have anybody to, to, that's going to really challenge him for that job. So he can just go out and play and he's the guy there right now. You know, will he be long-term? Well, obviously remains to be seen, but you know, I, I kind of wonder, I question how Baker would, would handle a situation if you brought them in and you also draft a guy in the second round or

late in the first round or something like that like is Baker the guy that's really gonna like help this guy because he's a very competitive guy he's a former number on overall pick himself like he is still of the belief like I would imagine that hey I can be a long-term starting quarterback for somebody in this league maybe it's for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers. They just need to give me a chance, yada, yada, yada. So that's where I kind of wonder if that would be the right fit. I think he could come in to this situation and play really well with the weapons and the system and everything.

He's got a really good arm. We know Kevin O'Connell likes guys that – likes quarterbacks that have really good, strong arms and Baker has that. So I don't think there's any question about like how good and how productive he could be in this situation. But I just wonder like, is it, would it be the right fit from the standpoint of like, do you, you know, if you want to go with a young guy, is Baker the right guy you want to have in front of him? Is he going to be the right guy? Ryan Tannehill, I just, I just don't know how much he has left. I mean, he's just been so banged up.

He's the oldest guy out of these three. And you just kind of wonder, like, if there's much left in the tank. He's 30, I think he's going to be 36 next season. He's always kind of had some problems with injuries and now you know at this stage of his career you just wonder how long he's going to hold up and if you bring him in anoint him your starter is it going to be a situation where he gets hurt again or you just realize he just doesn't have a lot left and now you're forced to put in that young quarterback probably sooner than maybe you

want to um so but i i think they're all intriguing options to me if if if i was choosing between the three i would probably go with gardner minshu just because i think it situationally i think it would make the most sense and you know he's capable of winning some games for you and play well enough. And you give him these weapons, I think he'll be pretty productive for you. And he won't make too much of a stink about being kind of the bridge guy. I think you really laid that out super well. Because when you get Gardner Minshew, he's a nice bar to have to reach if you're the starter. So think about Anthony Richardson.

You've got to beat out a guy who's won games in the league and is a pro and really understands NFL football and can win real games. So if you're Richardson and you're a rookie and you come into that camp, like you got to outplay him in order to win that job. So if you're the Vikings and you draft Michael Pennix or Bo Nix or JJ McCarthy, like they've got to outplay a real pro who was a winner this, the previous season. And it's basically like a 500 Kyle Orton type quarterback, maybe just cause they have a similar look to them. I don't know, but I think there's, I think there's a lot of similarities there. Um, but that's like Kyle Orton type Andy Dalton type is a guy that sets a good bar. Like you have to outperform that guy to win the starting job. If that guy does win the starting job, you can prop him up to win games and be competitive and have a good season. You're not going to win the Super Bowl with that guy, but it allows your quarterback to develop and you don't have to throw him right in because Nick Mullins is your backup and you

don't really have an option there. Baker Mayfield wins more games and is more talented and it's not even close. The arm talent of Baker Mayfield is pretty ridiculous. And that's where I wonder about O'Connell and Baker Mayfield. And I think Mayfield, just like Jared Goff kind of panics under pressure and has never really figured that out. But this dude, if he throws on time, this was always his thing in Oklahoma. It was his thing for that one year with Stefanski where it was working. If he throws on time, he has like that arm throwing to Justin Jefferson. And we've actually seen it work throwing to two really good wide receivers in Tampa Bay. Give him a little better pass protection. You might end up with really something there for an offense. But if you draft a guy, does that competition get a little bit awkward? Because you don't want Baker to be a backup.

He's got to be a starter. So you'd have to convince him to come here and you're going to be a backup. Like he he's gotta be a starter. So you'd have to convince him to come here and like, you're going to be a starter. You're going to be our starter and we're going to draft the guy. But is he going to, like you said, is he going to work with that guy or is he going to try to compete with that guy in a way that you don't want or right?

Because after this year, after winning a lot of games, he's going to want to make the argument, Hey, somebody should be making me their franchise quarterback. Again, the price tag might also be quite a bit different, but I think as far as if you took some of that other politics out of it, the dynamic out of it, and you just focused on the quarterbacks, Baker Mayfield could win 10 games with the Vikings next season. And, and, and I, I mean, I think he's good if he could

win seven so far with Tampa Bay, who I think is a much worse team than the Vikings. I think he could win 10 with the Vikings, but is that going to be the best option if you draft someone and then that quarterback is ready and then you have to bench Baker Mayfield, or would you just trade Baker Mayfield at that point? Or would he not sign here because of that? So it just struck me with those three quarterbacks. Tannehill, I am out on that conversation because of the injuries. I think if it wasn't for the injuries, he would be a good fit. But as far as those types of guys go, there will be those level quarterbacks available for the Vikings if they want to split the difference. And that's what stuck out to me uh let's talk about what is happening right now which is I think we're safe enough to say is the game over it's not quite over no it's the third quarter

that the Los Angeles Rams are going to win this game the Los Angeles Rams it's 27 to 7 so maybe we'll jinx it and it'll be a craziest comeback. But with Derek Carr, it's going to take a lot of checkdowns. I would not want to play the Los Angeles Rams if I'm in the NFC. And I think, Manny, this is, and he won the Super

Bowl, the most impressed I have been with Matthew Stafford in his entire career. He is playing brilliant pocket quarterback football. I'm blown away. I am absolutely blown away. I was always a bit of a Stafford skeptic because like, oh yeah,

the arm talent, but he throws the ball to the other team, takes a ton of sacks. He's been incredible, incredible this season. And the way that they fought through, they had the injury to Stafford and he's fought through and is operating that office at a super high level.

It says a lot about Sean McVay as a coach. They've turned it around defensively very quickly from a bad year last year. If I am San Francisco, if I am Dallas, if I am Philly, if I am Detroit, keep me as far away from the Los Angeles Rams as I could get. I want no part of playing Matt Stafford at his hottest going into the playoffs, especially

since we saw him play at an extremely high level in the playoffs. I mean, they are really good. And there's now, in my mind, there's one spot that the Vikings are playing for. Because the Rams are going to have one. And then it's up to whoever else. It's the Vikings and then battling with whoever else is going to have this spot. And I think after this, their playoff odds probably took a pretty big hit. Yeah, just on the Rams very quickly. I'm 100 100 with you and the other thing too about them they have a guy on the defensive side who's one of the greatest defensive players of all time

who we have seen many times simply just take over a game by himself we saw it in the superbowl aaron donald you know if not for cooper cup Cooper Cup playing out of his mind in that game, Aaron Donald could have been the MVP of that Super Bowl if not Cooper Cup or Matthew Stafford. He's a guy that if he has a good matchup in his favor on the offensive line, he can disrupt your entire season in one game. And if that offense continues to roll the way it is and you get Aaron Donald going well,

I mean, and this is a team that, like you said, it dealt with a lot of injuries, Stafford battling his own injuries. It's been really, really impressive to keep that together. And for the Vikings, I mean, I mean, I, I think, you know, Sunday is key. You know, you, you, you've got to find a way to win that game because if you lose that game, then your season is potentially on the line against the green Bay Packers on New Year's Eve. So I think you've got to find a way and it's going to be hard because they're playing a

team that's really good in Detroit. So but they've got to find a way to win that game because now you're really, really up against it if you don't. And all the pressure is on you against Green Bay on New Year's Eve. And, you know, you're just going to have to find a way. So Sunday, I think, is really vital if you're if you're the Vikings and you're trying to make the playoffs still, which I think they are Sundays, it's huge. Your season,

I think is on the line at that point. Yeah. I mean, you have two games against the team that's 10 and four. Then the Packers team that even though they kind of ate it over the last couple of weeks is still shown a capability to be dangerous. The other thing is I just pulled up Seattle schedule and they play Tennessee, Pittsburgh and Arizona, Tennessee, Pittsburgh, Arizona. That could easily go three for three in those games.

Pittsburgh is kind of give it up. Arizona is bad. Tennessee is bad. I have no guarantees, but they they could make it so they get to 10 and the Rams get to 10 and you just can't be a part of this party, even if you got two out of four, you're a lock. And now it doesn't look that way for the Vikings because of these other possibilities. And it's just it's just become more complicated. They still probably get in with two out of three. But I think it is much less of a lock because of that Seattle presence there as well. So the Rams, they have complicated this thing by being really, really good. Let me get to just a question or two here before we wrap up.

But first, I want to tell you about the prize picks for the week. We've been playing along prize picks all season long. Very simple. Go to prizepicks.com or download the app. And you've got tons of players, tons of options, and it is very simple to play. Just more or less on touchdowns, field goals, yardage. They've added new options that I've been messing around with. And so for this week, my prize pick selections are more passing yards for Nick Mullins than 259.5 yards.

This one is going to be a shootout Manny, which will also include Jared Goff with more than 252.5 yards. This one is going to be a shootout Manny, which will also include Jared Goff with more than 252.5 yards and Jameer Gibbs rushing for more than 46.5 yards in part. That's because the Vikings defensive line is banged up. So there are my prize picks for the week. Go to prizepicks.com. If you use the code purple, then you get a match up to $100, and it's very fun, easy to play. And for this particular play, $20 to win $100. Not exactly breaking the bank if you don't want to. You can if you like, but very easy to play at prizepicks.com. So make sure you go check that out. Josh asks, does KOC want a more mobile-type quarterback? I think he doesn't. If not, who fits the pocket passer mold in this year's draft? What do you think about the mobile quarterback? Kevin O'Connell himself was a very mobile quarterback when he played in college.

That was one of the things that got him drafted. The guy ran a 4'6". I struggle to think that he would in college. That was one of the things that got him drafted. The guy ran a 4-6. I struggle to think that he would hate that. But he's also said at some point you have to drop back and make a play. And that is absolutely always unequivocally true. What's your feeling on Kevin O'Connell and the type that he should be looking for? I don't know if we can really definitively say that he doesn't want a mobile quarterback that he wants just the prototypical dropback passing type of quarterback

i don't know if we can really say that he definitively wants that now to your point he does want somebody who can stand in the pocket go through his progressions, make good, accurate, anticipatory throws, and be productive. It's what he expected out of Kirk Cousins. We saw once Josh Dobbs got a little bit more acclimated to the system, it was what he was trying to get Josh Dobbs to do. Dobbs did not do very well at it and the offense struggled it's what he wants Nick Mullins to do so I think whatever quarterback you know if they draft somebody next spring that guy is gonna have to be able to do that and he's gonna try to develop that guy to do that rather the guy runs like Lamar Jackson or not you know what I mean so you know I don't know if it's really you know if they if if they

give up an entire draft to move up to take Caleb Williams we know Caleb Williams is super athletic and he can run around and extend plays and he's got a good arm and all that stuff but if if that's the guy Kevin O'Connell still going to want him to be able to stand in the pocket and make all the traditional throws to run the offense. So I don't think it's a situation where he's going to look at a guy that's super athletic and runs around all over the place. Like, I don't think he would look at somebody like Bo Nix, who we know can kind of run around a little bit to an extend plays. He's not going to look at Bo Nix and say, no, I don't want him because he runs around. He's going to look at him and say, okay, can he make this throw in from the pocket and this throw from the pocket? Can he? Okay. Yeah, he can. And

oh, look, he can run around and extend plays too. So let's take him and bring him into our team. So I think, I don't, I don't think it's a situation where an athletic quarterback is going to turn Kevin O'Connell away from him or anything like that. Yeah, I agree. And this is why I have thought that someone like Kyler Murray would be an interesting fit with O'Connell because a lot of the concepts are downfield. And Kyler Murray has the MLBR that he can absolutely hawk that thing. And that's most of their offense is trying to push

the ball downfield. And if the guy happens to add another 700 yards on the ground, I don't think that's going to be something that Kevin O'Connell is upset with. But I think if we were to build a Kevin O'Connell quarterback in a lab, it's either a what Matthew Stafford is right now, which is in the pocket, not trying too hard, but is going through his reads, full understanding of the offense, firing it into tight windows when he needs to take it a shot in the pocket when he needs to. The other guy I was thinking of is Joe Burrow because Joe Burrow is a little bit more of a playmaker with his legs as in escapability, but is just so brilliant and is so accurate. And I think that if you added to Kirk Cousins, for example, that playmaking part that Joe Burrow has, you are talking about the perfect

quarterback for Kevin O'Connell. I think that what Cousins has been is a very good quarterback for O'Connell because he does a lot of those things with the accuracy anticipation. He trusts his arm to make those throws, but he doesn't quite have the velo of Stafford or the playmaking of Burrow that makes those guys a level up from what Kirk Cousins is as a quarterback. And I think that would be perfect for him. I don't think, but there's no one in the league that ever, as far as quarterbacks goes, relies on running that it's, it's always that you have to be a passer who is a great runner. And that goes for even the greatest runner in Lamar Jackson. So, uh, you know, we see that, I mean, like Lamar Jackson's running

a handful of times a game and it's really effective, but he's not like running 30 times a game. I mean, it's not like it's Navy or something in the NFL. The quarterback has to be effective, straight drop back and make those plays and throw on time and throw accurately. So I don't think that if he's got like jayden daniels who has amazing passing numbers by the way in production that he would be like no i hate that like who's gonna dislike that right somebody who hey if things go wrong he can run for a 50 yard touchdown that feels pretty good uh but i you know i look at someone like Bo Nix or like Penix. Penix has no running to him at all. That's actually the biggest concern for me is that he's got injuries and is just not quick. And Bo Nix has more of that to him. How accurate is he when he has to throw into tight windows?

Because he's never doing that at Oregon where everybody's wide open all the time. This is what makes it such an interesting discussion. So let me answer a couple of questions before we wrap up for the evening. And again, I appreciate people's adjustments here for timing wise. Kyle reminds us that Ryan Tannehill said it's not his job to mentor Malik Willis. So that won't be a position that he would get. And maybe Baker Mayfield feels the same way. Let's see. Breck says, do you think this defense really believes it could dominate

the next three games? I don't think they could dominate the next three games, not with how banged up they are. And we saw that there's just some weaknesses with the defense. It's just reality. I mean, I remember a couple of weeks ago, I kind of said like, I love what I'm seeing, but there's no Micah Parsons here.

There's no like, I mean, Daniil had an amazing season, so I'm not taking away from him. I mean that they have, like Dallas has like a Daniil, and then they have a Micah Parsons, you know, DeMarcus Lawrence. And they have four other guys who are awesome. And I think you need the beasts on the D line before this can be one where you go, hey, they can just like dominate long sections of seasons and take you deep into the playoffs. I don't think that they're there yet as a defense. And I think some of those weaknesses are going to be revealed

in the next few weeks. Yeah, and they also, you know, the Cowboys also have Stephon Gilmore, who's like one of the best, who's been one of the best corners in the league for like the last decade. Like he's, that guy might be in the Hall of Fame. Like he's that, he's been that good. He's been that fantastic.

So yeah, I mean, there's just not enough. What Brian Flores has done with this defense has been nothing short of Fame. He's been that good. He's been that fantastic. There's just not enough. What Brian Flores has done with this defense has been nothing short of amazing, but when you just look at what they have on paper, they have a lot of really nice pieces, but they need more. They need another guy on the defensive front

that can be a little more disruptive from a pass rushing standpoint. They need those corners, those young corners to continue to develop and get better. They've played well at times, but they're still very young and they still make, you know, young player mistakes. So they need those guys to continue to get better. But they've got they've got some really nice pieces. It's just they're just not quite there yet from you know to being a elite 2017 level vikings defense um but but they can get there i think they can absolutely get

there they just need a couple more pieces um so time got away from me a little bit here manny but do you want to run through your favorite lions here? Let me just answer two more quick questions and I'll make it short because I looked up at the time and I'm just all messed up. I started on the West coast and, uh, you know, we started late on the show, everything. So I completely got caught in the conversation. Didn't realize how deep into the night we have gone here. So let me answer these and then we'll get your, your quick top five favorite lions. Cause I, I know that you put more work than you should into these lists. Uh, so Jeffrey says, I think hall is our future starting quarterback. Uh, and if that's true, the Vikings will have a

great draft without having to draft a quarterback. I assume you mean last year. Uh, I, oh, you, or you mean next year, they'll not have to draft quarterback. Now I get, I gotcha. Uh, I feel like they're going to bring back cousins. Anyway, the second part of that might be true. I don't think Jaron Hall's in the discussion for a future quarterback. Uh, he would be starting right now. If he was, that doesn't mean they don't like Jaron Hall and taking a shot at him may ultimately turn out to be a good idea. But if you were banking on him being a starter for the future, he probably would have been the guy that they went to. And as far as Cousins goes, I could see it. I also would ask why didn't they do it last year if they wanted him to be their future guy? Lee says, heard JJ

McCarthy described as a more athletic Kirk Cousins. I don't see that, by the way um could he be koc's preferred quarterback he could i don't see that i i see kirk cousins is a wildly accurate quarterback just i mean like one of the most technically sound when he could step and throw quarterbacks in the league i watch mccarthy and i just don't see that i i don't i don't see this insane precision to his play. I think he's a more athletic Jake Browning. I mean, I just don't see a lot of velo. I think that this is one of those, the guy gets hyped up and ends up being picked

in the middle of the second round. That's just my observation from watching three J.J. McCarthy games or four, but I don't view him. I just don't view him as a first-round, but I don't view him. I just don't view him as a first round talent. I don't know. Caller that team is so loaded. There's so much talent around him.

They've got like, I think what I said, like 11 of those guys could get drafted, you know, in next spring. Like that team is absolutely loaded. They might win the national championship and he might not have to do very much for them to win it. I mean, he's just, he, you know, I, I don't,

I don't know how good he is because he hasn't been asked to play in any sort of really tight competitive games. I mean, the Ohio state game kind of was that, you know what I mean? But outside of that, they were just steam rolling everybody. So there was never a highly contested situation where it was like, all right, yeah, the ball's in the hands of J.J. McCarthy and he's going to go and make a play for this offense. He was never asked to do that. So I don't know. I'm kind of with you there. He can run around a little bit, but can he run around because he's like 21 years old and young?

Or can he run around because he's like a freak athlete? I don't I don't. He's not. Bo Nix is more of an NFL athlete quarterback, not JJ McCarthy. In my mind, he's not running away from anybody in the NFL. The defensive linemen run for fives, man, or even better in some instances. Okay. All right.

Let's wrap up on your five. Run through them fairly quickly. Give the player, give a quick explanation, and we won't keep everybody all night. But I do want to hear this list before we wrap up. All right. Number five, Robert Porsche, one of the really elite pass rushing defensive ends in the late 90s had 95 and a half sacks in his career just an excellent player at his peak number four Herman Moore again back to the mid 90s one of the most productive and unsung wide receivers from that era unfortunately played at

the same time where Jerry Rice and Chris Carter and Tim Brown were also in the league at the peak of their powers as well. But Herman Moore was fantastic. Number three, Megatron, obviously one of the greats of all time, a Hall of Famer, just an absolute truck of a man as well. Just massive and ran like a deer. Amazing season back in 2012. Number two, I cheated a little bit. I went with a coach and I went with Wayne Fonts. I think we'll see what happens with Dan Campbell over the next few years, but I think Wayne Fonts is the best coach in Lions history, you know, certainly since the merger of the AFL and NFL. Really productive guy, got kind of a raw deal. His job seemingly was on the line every year. This guy took the Lions to the NFC Championship game in 1991.

I mean, come on. It's ridiculous. Wayne Fonce was awesome. Number one, it's pretty obvious, Barry Sanders, my favorite football player of all time growing up. Amazing. I was fortunate enough to see him get enshrined into the Hall of fame in person

back in 2004 and uh just one of one of the all-time greats and absolutely just a joy to watch and just a kind of a a quiet but quirky personality too kind of funny a dry sense of humor too barry was awesome so uh those, those are my top five lines of all time. I will throw in my second favorite because of course, Barry Sanders is there, but Chris Spielman, what a quintessential middle linebacker back in the day and all time. Great. Who belongs on that list as well. You can also put Brett Perriman, Johnny Morton, like that, that whole list of guys, and then no one from the two thousands and all of you should be ashamed. Uh, I mean, what a, what a sad and unfortunate run that they had through so, so many years of just the abysmal Matt Millen built teams. So it's kind of like the nineties and then more recently, um, that, that we have lions worth talking about.

So great stuff, Manny, as always, thanks everybody for the time adjustment for today. And off we go to Vikings lions tomorrow night on the YouTube channel. We'll have the round table from inside TCO performance center that was recorded today. And then we'll go to us bank stadium and see what the heck is next for this season.

Thanks everybody again for watching and appreciate you, Manny. We'll see you guys soon.