Pursuit of Wellness - The Psychology of Infertility & Miscarriage w/ Dr. Molly Burrets

Episode Date: June 30, 2025

Ep. 191: This episode includes discussion of infertility and pregnancy loss—please listen with care. Today’s episode is a special conversation with Dr. Molly Burrets, a clinical psychologist and professor at USC, about the deeply personal and often invisible experience of reproductive grief. Dr. Molly struggled with infertility herself, facing miscarriage, a TFMR, and ultimately pursuing IVF abroad. Having made it through to the other side, she shares what these experiences taught her—about grief, resilience, and what it means to be truly supported. Anyone navigating infertility, pregnancy loss, or supporting someone through it will get a lot from this conversation. ____________________ Leave Me a Message - click here! For Mari’s Instagram click here! For Pursuit of Wellness Podcast’s Instagram click here! For Mari’s Newsletter click here! For Dr. Molly’s Instagram click here! Sponsored By: - Get $100 credit toward your Function membership—only for the first 1,000! Sign up at functionhealth.com/pow. - Sleep cooler & lounge lighter this summer. Get 40% off at cozyearth.com with code PURSUIT—comfort you’ll feel instantly. - Try the healthiest red meat on the planet. Visit mauinuivenison.com/pow to access our favorite cuts—limited supply, wild-harvested, stress-free. - Upgrade your kitchen with non-toxic, modern cookware from Caraway. Get 10% off at carawayhome.com/Mari10 or use code MARI10—exclusively for our listeners. - Sleep better with Eight Sleep. Get $350 off Pod 4 Ultra at eightsleep.com/pow with code POW. - Experience clear, radiant skin with CLEARSTEM. Visit clearstem.com/pow for 20% off your first purchase of science-backed, holistic skincare. - Get better sleep, smoother hair, and glowing skin with Blissy. Use code POWPOD for 30% off at blissy.com/POWPOD. ____________________ Show Links: - For free resources or to work with Dr. Molly visit drmollyburrets.com - Boost your energy and focus with Bloom Sparkling Energy—a zero-sugar, 10-calorie drink with prebiotics, lychee, and natural caffeine. Topics Discussed: 00:00:00: Intro & trigger warning 00:01:45: Welcome 00:03:07: Molly’s personal story 00:04:02: Starting her family later in life 00:04:40: First miscarriage 00:05:13: TFMR (Termination for Medical Reasons) 00:07:29: Choosing IVF for genetic testing 00:10:07: IVF in Mexico vs. U.S. 00:17:56: Success with final embryo 00:20:18: Private Instagram for IVF updates 00:21:34: Setting boundaries during IVF 00:22:55: Lack of education around IVF 00:23:56: Molly's support during her struggles 00:25:37: Setting boundaries with pregnant women 00:31:39: Thoughts on viral clip about infertility 00:42:56: Group etiquette around fertility conversations 00:45:33: Competitive feelings among women around pregnancy 00:50:18: Helping friends through miscarriage 00:47:21: Struggles with secondary infertility 00:49:10: Time gap between kids 00:50:18: Healing relationship with body during pregnancy 00:52:52: Marital strain and vulnerability during infertility 01:03:11: Postpartum mental health red flags 01:05:54: Body image shifts during pregnancy 01:09:46: Grieving after abortion 01:12:06: Bittersweet emotions after conceiving through IVF Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Going through infertility is one of the hardest, most poignant stressors a marriage can face. This is the Pursuit of Wellness podcast, and I'm your host, Mari Llewellyn. Hi guys, welcome back to the Pursuit of Wellness podcast. Today we have a guest that I am so excited about, Dr. Molly Burrits. She is a licensed clinical psychologist with over 16 years of experience in psychotherapy, research and teaching. She is a professor at USC, has an amazing career, and she also went through IVF herself. She experienced pregnancy loss and secondary infertility, and her practice focuses on reproductive mental health.

I do just wanna give a trigger warning. We will be discussing topics like infertility, miscarriage, loss. And if you're not ready to hear about those topics, I would recommend clicking out, listening to a different episode. As you guys know, I went through my own infertility and IVF journey and connecting with Molly

was really, really important and special to me. I saw a clip of Molly speaking about how to discuss this topic with friends who were going through loss or infertility and just how eloquent she was speaking about this topic really spoke to me. She actually helped me when I was personally going through my HCG issues at the beginning of my pregnancy when I thought that I would lose my pregnancy. So she was there for me personally and I just know how smart and empathetic she is. I know this conversation will be hopefully so impactful for so many of you. I really hope you guys enjoy and find some value from this.

And let's talk to Dr. Molly Burrits. Dr. Molly Burrits, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you so much for having me. I am over the moon to have you here. I have been a big fan of yours. Same. You were at my house last night and I think I told you I'm your biggest fan.

Because I saw this clip of yours when I was in the trenches with IVF and you were talking about infertility and basically how to discuss it with friends and how to basically just like handle that topic. And you were so eloquent and I sent it to so many people that I know. And ever since then I'm like, I just love this woman. She gets it. Obviously you're a clinical psychologist, which is incredible. I mean, congrats, you have a huge career. But you've also been through infertility, IVF, so many

things. I know you talk about relationships and a lot of different topics. I think today we're really going to focus on reproductive grief loss. So trigger warning for anyone who's maybe not ready to hear those topics. But it is such a big part of my life and it has been on the show for the last, I mean, I think I've been talking about having a baby for like over a year on my show. So I'm really excited to have you here today. I'd love to just start by hearing your personal story with however much you're comfortable to share,

because I think it will give good context of your experience. Yeah. Boy, my story is a long one. So I'll kind of select the highlights. I was working. So I specialize in my practice in two types of issues. I specialize in couples, and I specialize in women's reproductive health and the mental health challenges that come along with that.

And I was doing that before I ever experienced any issues with infertility myself. And it's just really pretty shocking how my life sort of transformed to meet my work where I needed to meet it. And now how I work with women experiencing infertility and going through IVF and other assisted reproductive technologies is so different because I know what they're going through. I've experienced it, you know? But I had my first child on the late side. I had him right before my 40th birthday. And it was easy.

And it was very little effort, and I know that experience, and I'm grateful to have known that experience. I didn't know at the time how lucky I was and how fortunate I was, and I kind of just assumed, oh, like I beat the odds. Like, I'm just one of those people that can have kids late in life, and I didn't really worry too much about having a second kid. And, you know, maybe 18, 20 months later, after my son was born, we tried again. And I got pregnant again, right away.

And again, I told myself, wow, I've hit the jackpot. I'm just one of these lucky people. But that pregnancy ended in a miscarriage. And I didn't have a ton of experience or expertise in people who were able to get pregnant but not stay pregnant. More of my practice had focused on people who have difficulty conceiving, right? And I didn't have difficulty conceiving. A second time, very soon after, we conceived again without much effort. And I thought, okay, so, you know, I had my miscarriage, odds are that's over, now I'm gonna have my baby.

And a really, really sad thing happened, which was that I lost that baby in the second trimester. And I lost that baby because that baby had a chromosomal abnormality. So that baby was really sick. And that was, at that time in my life, the hardest thing I had ever gone through. I don't think a lot of the community is familiar with the term TFMR, which means termination for medical reasons. And this is the really heartbreaking experience of finding out that the baby that you have is

extremely sick and may not make it to birth. And if they do make it to birth, will have an extremely compromised life of suffering or won't live very long. And so many people make the choice to save their baby from that kind of suffering and terminate the pregnancy for medical reasons. That's called TFMR. And I would say that that's probably the most taboo topic still in infertility. Really? Yeah. Because I had never heard the term actually, so that makes sense. And there's a reason why you haven't heard it, because people don't want to talk about it,

because it feels very shameful. The choice to terminate a pregnancy for a baby that you very much wanted is very traumatizing. I mean, to me, it sounds like pure hell. I can't imagine. I'm so sorry you went through that. And I can't imagine anything more painful, honestly. I mean, miscarriage in general is just kind of unfathomable,

the pain that people experience. And you and I were speaking about this last night. It seems like it's increasing in how common it is, which is crazy. And I'm so glad we're having this conversation because I think a lot of people don't know how to help their friends or family members who are experiencing this.

Yeah, and, you know, going through that with my baby in the second trimester, what I thought to myself was, I can never do that again. I can never go through that experience again. And so I went through IVF, not because I couldn't conceive, but because I wanted to have the process of testing my embryos to determine if there were any genetic abnormalities before becoming pregnant with them. And I'm so glad I did because I'm so glad I did do it. I'm so glad I was able to make it happen and it requires a lot of resources and privilege,

which is a whole other thing that I can get on my high horse about. I retrieved overall 40 eggs and two of them were genetically normal. So my first one, the first transfer that I did resulted in a chemical pregnancy, which was devastating because I knew I had one chance left, you know? And that's why I felt for you so, one of the reasons I felt for you so much when you were going

through your transfer and all the uncertainties because I watched that line on the stick get lighter and lighter and lighter. And it was like being given something and having it taken away was horrible. Brutal. You know? Brutal. I know you know what that feels like because you were in that space.

Yeah. And for context, guys, Dr. Molly helped me during that time. I reached out and we had a phone call and it was really, really helpful to me during that time. And I felt like you got it. I felt like I got it because I have been there. And I just think you're such a special person. And I was really honored that I even got to play a little role in it. So I was in this position where I was left with one embryo. And that was sort of, my husband calls it a Hail Mary, which apparently is a football term, whatever. Is it really? It's like when the clock is running out, you have nothing left and you throw the ball all the way from one end of the field to the other end of the field,

looking for a touchdown. Yeah. Because it's your last thing. It's the only thing left. Yeah. So she was our Hail Mary and I knew it was a girl. And I waited a long time to do the transfer because I didn't want it to be over. And I knew that if it didn't work for me, it would be over. Yeah, I wasn't going to do anything more. I was so cashed and out of bandwidth. I wasn't going to consider donor egg. Like I just couldn't do it. How long at this point had you been on injections? On and off for two years. Which is insane. I mean, anyone who's done IVF knows it's really intense.

And you're just getting kind of thrown around by these hormones. And they have a massive impact on your body. Yeah, it ran my life. It ran my life. And on top of it, I know this is going to sound so wild, but I was commuting to Mexico to do the IVF.

Can you tell us more about that? Because I've heard you mentioned that. What did that look like? Yeah. So I did a round in Los Angeles and it was pretty dismal. I got very few eggs. I did the retrieval in the retrieval. None of the eggs that I got that I got actually made it to the blast embryo stage. So it was like $25,000 to me completely thrown down the drain.

Yeah. And the doctor was basically like, I mean, this it's stats and this is your age. And overall, even if you really see this through and do multiple rounds, like I ran the data analytics and you probably have an 8% chance of being successful through IVF. Wow. And that's another thing I want people to know is like IVF is not a cure-all.

It's not like if you're not having kids now, you can be like, oh, I'll just do IVF later. It is not, it is so far from a guarantee. It's not like if you're not having kids now, you can be like, oh, I'll just do IVF later. It is not. It is so far from a guarantee. It's not a guarantee. And for many people, it does not work. For many people. So that's just, I think, a misconception, is that IVF is the insurance policy.

And as long as you have that, you'll be OK. And that's just not true. It's so valid. And it's very anxiety-provoking. I think people, I could even tell by the way people would talk to me when I was doing it that they thought that it was a sure bet and I was like no no, no I don't know. It's not, it's not. So I was like man like I'm looking at my son and trying to save for him to be able to go to college and And, you know, the way I grew up was very financially unstable. And I'm just like looking at the big picture.

And I'm like, I have some really hard choices to make here because I don't know how many times this is going to take. She's telling me like, I might have to do this like seven, eight, nine times. I'm looking at the money and I'm like, I cannot do this. And it just felt like throwing money away, you know. And I started doing some research online and I found out about this doctor in Tijuana, which is about a two and a half hour drive from my house

when there's no traffic. That's actually not bad. Yeah, it wasn't bad. Quite, it's not great, but. Getting there wasn't the problem. It was getting back across the border and waiting at border control that was really, really hard. My longest wait was 14 hours. Oh my God.

So, and you know how many appointments IVF takes. Oh, you're there every other day sometimes. You're sitting at the border for 14 hours. That was my longest one. Interestingly, our very last trip, usually I would go alone, but on my transfer days, my husband came with me. And on the very last transfer,

when we transferred my daughter, Aurora, we waited at the border for 14 hours to get back home. 14 hours, no place to pee, no place to get anything to eat, just waiting. And you have no idea it's going to be 14 hours. You don't go into it knowing, OK, it's 14 hours. You just are waiting and waiting and waiting, and you don't know what's going to happen. And this is a much more cost effective route. Oh my gosh. Okay, so I could do four rounds in Mexico for the cost of doing one round in the States. Wow. So it's a quarter of the

cost. Even more than that. There are two reasons why I did it. The first, what got me looking was the cost. But then I found a doctor down there. She's a female doctor named Dr. Isabella Martinez. And she is like a very young, cutting edge, very involved in research and international research presentation. She knows what's up. And her attitude, she told me, I asked her like, who's the oldest woman like you've ever been successful with? I think when I started, I was 43.

And she said, 41, but you're gonna be my first 43 year old. And like, so her positive mindset, I was like, okay, this person believes that I can do this, and I'm going to do it. So great to have someone in your corner like that, seriously, because it can be really hard to pick up the encouragement when you're going through so much. And she wasn't, she didn't lie to me. She said, Yeah, those stats 8% Yeah, that probably is about right. But there's no reason why you can't be one of the eight out of 100. Yeah. And let's go for it, Molly. Yeah. And the other thing is that she was able to use medications with me that are not FDA approved in the US.

Yeah. And I took that risk and I did it. When I followed her protocol, the number of eggs I got tripled. Wow, that's amazing. Oh my God, I wanna know more about that medication. Is that now FDA approved here? No. You guys know that lab testing is a really big part of my health journey, whether it's been for my skin or my fertility journey. And I chose Function because it's the best

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I feel so lucky and privileged that I was able to do IVF now. It was so expensive. And I remember going in the waiting room and I took a big step back from work during IVF, which is again, so lucky and privileged to be able to do that. But I would look around the room and see like teachers and nurses, I would like ask people, what do you do? And I was like, how are they affording to come here every other, just the time and the money? It yes, it's insane. I knew people who got part-time jobs at Starbucks or Amazon so that they could get IVF covered

through their benefits. So these were women who were like literally going to work from nine to five at their real job and then going to work at Amazon lifting boxes in a warehouse for four hours, five days a week, just so that they could get IVF benefits. It's incredible. Can you imagine going through IVF and having to do physical labor while you're like, it's just wild. Wild.

It's wild. So your transfer worked. Yeah, my transfer worked. Our Hail Mary is my daughter, Aurora, who almost two years old, and she's the best. Yeah. Oh, I'm going to cry. I'm so happy for you. The fact that you're on the other side with two kids is really encouraging for me, and I'm sure for so many people listening. And I'm just like, in awe that you pushed that hard to get to where you are now.

It was really, really hard. Like it nearly destroyed me. Like going to Mexico, and you remember I'm still taking care of another kid, you know, and was talking to him about it. And you know, mommy's going to the doctor in Mexico. Sometimes I would spend the night at like a cheap motel near the border.

I mean, I look back at what I did. I'm like, the love of a mother, man, we can do anything motivated by that feeling. I don't speak Spanish, and so I didn't understand the parking signs, and apparently I parked illegally and my car got booted in Tijuana. I was by myself in Tijuana with a boot on my car and I had to figure out what to do to get home. And like I look back at what I did for my daughter and like it's just like, wow, you can't believe your own strength sometimes. No, no, it's incredible. Do you think you'll ever tell her? Oh yeah. Well, what I did was I kept a little,

Do you think you'll ever tell her? Oh, yeah. Well, what I did was I kept a little I have a little private Instagram page that tracks my IVF process from beginning to end that like, I mean, literally has like 30 followers or something like that. So someday when she's old enough, I'll show her. Oh my gosh, that's so special that you have that. Yeah. I think I heard you on another interview say that was how you kept everyone in your life updated because when you're going through IVF or infecility, you get a lot of questions. Yes. And there is a lot of updates, like as you know, like every three days, did it make it to blast?

Did this happen? You know, it's like there's constant waiting and then news, waiting and then news. And I just did not have the capacity to tell everyone all the time, to answer all the texts. So I created a little Instagram page. I only invited people that I wanted to know everything going on. And I just said, guys, please don't text me and ask me what's going on. If there's news, it will be on my page.

Such a great idea. I wish I did that. And then I didn't have to tell everyone. And then when it didn't work, I didn't have to tell 30 people. You know what I mean? Such a good method. I feel like the it all comes from a good place. The questions. Yes, but it's overwhelming. Yeah, it can be really overwhelming. And if you forget to tell someone something, then they're offended and that becomes a whole other thing.

And you're already going through so much on your own. I'm kind of a chronic oversharer, which is why I have the career that I have. I love that for you. But I know a lot of girls don't even share the transfer day, which I think is smart. I did not publicly, because otherwise it just is an immense amount of pressure.

I can't even imagine being in your position with literally millions of people thinking of you on your transfer day and that's just too much. Yeah, no, I didn't share that. But I had people thinking I was pregnant before I was actually pregnant and that was weird. I saw some posts actually when you went to Nayarit. Yeah. People were posting, oh, she's so pregnant. She's definitely pregnant.

And I'm like, that's so insensitive. I know, no, it's wild. I know it's coming from a place of wanting you to be pregnant. Yeah. It's coming from a good place. I know. I'm luckily like weirdly dissociated from my comment section because I guess,

cause I've been doing this for so long, I don't really let it sink in. Yeah. It was more like in real life things that would get to me. And I think there's also like a really big not not that people who don't go through IVF should know, but there's a big lack of education around IVF to people who don't do it. One hundred percent. Right?

Yes. Like the questions I would get was so also calling embryos eggs. That was a big one. Yes. Do you get that a lot? Totally. The other one is when are they going to impregnate you? Yes. Yes. Yes. I'm like, okay, it's a transfer. They're going to transfer the embryo into my uterus. Like, are you getting impregnated this week? Yeah.

Can we please stop saying that word? And they always think you're going to put two. Yes. That's my biggest thing. They're like, you putting, how many are stop saying that word? And they always think you're gonna put two. That's my biggest thing. They're like, you putting, how many are you gonna put? And I'm like, just one, babe, just one. You're like, no, that's, if people aren't doing genetic testing on their eggs, sometimes they're putting in more than one.

But if you're doing genetic testing, you're just putting in one. Also as if like we all have like 10 to work with. Do you know what I mean? Right, right. You only have a- Dozens of eggs. I mean, that would be amazing.

Coming in a carton. That would be amazing. But like most of us just have like three, do you know? If we're lucky, so yeah, that's a funny question. Out of curiosity, during your losses, your struggles, did you have a resource to turn to? Cause I know now you help so many people, but back then, what did you have a resource to turn to? Because I know now you help so many people,

but back then, what did you do to deal? You know, that question makes me sad because it makes me think in a way that I hadn't before, that there was a way in which I was very alone in all of it. Yeah. You know, I was very resourceful and I always have been my whole life.

I know how to get my needs met. I know how to take something small and turn it into what I need. You know, and the Internet was very helpful with that. That's I found the clinic in Tijuana through a Facebook group. Oh, those Facebook groups are amazing. Yeah. So honestly, some of the best support that I got, because I actually, obviously, I can't talk to my clients and get support from them.

I didn't know a lot of people in real life who had gone through this. I just didn't say that's right. Exactly. So I didn't have a lot in the people who are who were in these groups, these support groups on Facebook. Honestly, they were the ones that I got the most information from. But I was doing a lot of figuring it out on my own. Yeah, I think it's interesting now thinking about going through IVF and coping mechanisms. I definitely followed a lot of people who were going through IVF and coping mechanisms. You kind of like, I definitely followed a lot of people

who were going through IVF and wanted to see that. But I feel like social media can also be really tough when you're struggling, because it feels like is everyone in the world pregnant except me? Like, that's a big feeling. I'm curious your opinion, like what would you recommend to someone who's really struggling and maybe everyone, it feels

like everyone around them is pregnant? Let's talk about like in real life and on social media. Yeah. So I think boundaries are extremely important and you're allowed to change your boundaries as frequently and as often as you want. So if it feels good to connect with people who are going through what you're going through, or it feels good to connect with someone who's pregnant because they make you feel like, OK, if that happened for her, it's possible for me too, then enrich that relationship, you know, and stay engaged.

But if it starts to feel bad, you can take a step back. And I think you really have to pay attention to yourself and what you're feeling, and let yourself respond accordingly. If you pay attention, you will know how you feel. And if you know how you feel, it is your job to then act accordingly. So if you're hanging out with a friend who you know, it makes you feel bad. You know that it is your job then to have a boundary and maybe say, I love you so much. I'm so happy for your success. It's hard for me to be around it right now because it just brings up so

much sadness in me. I'm happy for you, but I'm already dealing with so much that I just need to take a temporary step back and take care of myself. And I so hope that you will be there waiting for me when I'm ready again. Yeah. Because a real friend will.

Yes, 1,000%. 1,000%. No question a real friend will. Yeah. Someone who is not a real friend will be Yes, 1000%. 1000%. No question. Yeah. A real friend will. Yeah. Someone who is not a real friend will be like, well, she can't even be happy for me. And you know, that's going to tell you a lot about that person's role in your life. So true. So telling. And now being on the other side, and where you're the pregnant, where I'm the pregnant one, If I had a friend that was struggling and they said to me,

what you just said, I need to take a step back. I'd be glad that they said that instead of just like, avoiding me or dodging the topic. Like I would rather have that direct communication. And I would actually personal experience, and I know my friend might be listening. When I was really struggling, it was hard. I swear when I had my egg retrieval experience and it was really bad, at that time, one of

Greg's best friend's wives got pregnant, his sister got pregnant, our next door neighbor got pregnant. It felt like every single person, one of my closest friends was pregnant and I felt like I was drowning. And one of my friends was updating me on a lot and I ended up sending her a message where I was like, I kind of, I don't know if I said it as eloquently as you did, but I set a boundary, which for me is really hard. I'm such a people pleaser. Boundaries are so hard. Really hard. But I remember typing it out and I was like,

I am so happy for you. And I said, normal Mari would be asking you so many questions and would be so interested in everything you have to say. But right now I'm kind of in the depths of what I'm going through and it's just really hard for me to hear. I can't wait to be there with you and be excited with you, but right now I just can't." And she was so understanding and called me right away and was like, oh my God. And she's also gotten pregnant naturally twice now and hasn't been through this, but she was so understanding. And I just want to share that personal experience with people if they're nervous, because I so get that feeling. But it is worth it to protect your own energy because otherwise you're just

daily like dealing with this heaviness, you know? Yes. The mute button exists for a reason, babies. And use it. Use it generously. Please mute me if I am annoying you. Like that's something now being pregnant too. I'm like, is my content too pregnant forward? Cause I keep thinking about old me and people going through it still. You're sharing your life, Mari. You're authentically sharing your life.

That is what has drawn people to you from the get-go. I don't know if you know this, but I started following you like 10 years ago. I didn't know that. Yes. Oh my gosh. I was doing, at the time it was called BBG. Yeah. And I started following you

and you were such an inspiration to me just because you shared the real you. And I was like, if she can do it, I can do it. You know? Yeah. So I've been a fan of you for so long. That's crazy. I have the chills. That's so wild. I mean, it's crazy to me that I'm sitting with you because I've known you for so long. I think we would have been to me.

Yes, absolutely. But you have gotten the level of success that you've gotten by being your authentic self and you need to keep being that. And people will take care of themselves. They can leave the space if they need to and come back if they want to. That's up to them. You just keep doing you because your life is changing. So your brand and your work and what you talk about is gonna change.

Yeah, and it is my whole world right now. I've waited such a long time for this and it is like, I'm so excited about it obviously. And you should be. Thank you. And I love the advice of muting. Like I muted a lot of people when I was struggling and unfollow if you need to.

No one's gonna be upset, no one's even gonna notice. That's right. Like make your algorithm what you need it to be. Yes. I think that's such good advice because otherwise it feels like you're drowning every day. That's right. Join the Facebook groups.

You know, I think also like meeting people who have also been through it is so helpful. I know that can be tough because not everyone's so open about it. Right. You and I spoke about this briefly. There was a viral podcast clip of a very well-known podcaster discussing infertility.

And she basically suggested that the topic of infertility and miscarriage is almost too spoken about. Like it's being shoved down everyone's throat, quote unquote, and that it's scaring younger girls, and we need to be talking more about natural pregnancies and positive experiences. And the IVF community was and is up in arms about it. I was very upset about it myself. What is your take on that? Like, what would you say to someone who thinks that? I would start from a place of grace, because I'm sure there have been times in my life,

I know there have been times in my life, when I didn't know what I didn't know. And I probably said some things that were at minimum insensitive, and at worst, very harmful. And I think this is an example of that. When you don't know what you don't know and you haven't had an experience, but then you speak on that experience, it is the least insensitive and at most very harmful. And I think from what I have seen online

that it has been very harmful to people who are already going through the most suffering of their lives. There's not too much information out there. It's wonderful that there's a renaissance and that we are finally, just for the first time, starting to get information from women to women. So if it feels like it's burgeoning, it is. And that's wonderful because we have been waiting so long to stop being in the dark about this. So if it's not your struggle, I can really with grace understand how it seems like, oh my gosh, people are talking about this everywhere, shoving it down. Well, people are talking about it because so many people need it. And just thank your lucky

stars that you don't. Just hold that gratitude and keep it moving. If it's not your pain, keep it moving. If it's not your pain, I don't think it's helpful to comment on other people's pain. And I think it's really important that women be educated about their reproductive health across all domains, whether that's natural family planning or assisted reproductive technologies, there's lots of ways to get pregnant and there's lots of ways to have babies. And you can have babies without getting pregnant. So I just want there to be room for all of it. It's not a competition. And I want us to be sensitive to the pain and struggle

that people are going through, because I can promise you this, we are not going through all of this just because we don't have a positive mindset. Thank you. I didn't spend my life commuting to Tijuana, Mexico and shooting myself up with drugs and going through the heartbreak and pain of waiting, loss and disappointment just because I wasn't thinking positive enough. And hey, I'm a psychologist, so I understand, appreciate and respect the

value of a positive mindset. It's something I'm working on all the time and teaching my clients. And so it's not all or nothing. A positive mindset is super important, but a positive mindset does not change your body's chemistry. And I think at the heart of every woman who's experiencing infertility, maybe this is too generalized, but I feel like every single one of us,

there's a voice in us somewhere that says, what did I do wrong? Or I'm doing something wrong, or what's wrong with me? And I think it's different for everyone, but I think that that's a core experience. And so we don't need other people who aren't suffering through this also telling us there's something wrong with you. And if you would just think positively, you would be through this.

Absolutely. So I honestly, I would love to speak to that woman from a place of just like grace and compassion and see if there could be a conversation just to have a little bit more perspective. Yeah, absolutely. I think that was so well said and you summed up how I feel as well

and I think how so many women feel. I think, yeah, a lot of us feel like we are broken and it takes a lot of work to get out of that mindset. So we definitely don't need very impactful people on the internet kind of adding to this conversation. And also I think when you're going through infertility, it does, positive experiences are everywhere. Yeah. Right?

Like I felt that way. I was going- People are getting pregnant everywhere. Everywhere. Yeah, that's all we see. Everywhere. Yeah. And I so tried my best to celebrate everyone, but it is so hard. Yeah. So really well said.

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You get 30 days to try it at home and return it if you don't like it, but I am confident you will keep it. Another question I have, and a lot of my friends actually wanted me to ask you this. Okay. Yeah, the girls chimed in. I'm 31 and a lot of my girlfriends and a lot of people listening, they're women, they're in the same age range as me. It's a big topic of conversation, talking about conceiving babies.

Everyone's kind of thinking about it or they're on their journey or maybe they've already suffered a loss. What is the etiquette around talking about it with your girlfriends? Like, should it be spoken about? Is it not appropriate? How do you delicately talk about it? Like, should it be spoken about? Is it not appropriate? How do you delicately talk about it?

Like, how do you know? Like having babies in general, conception and planning and all of that. Yeah, like someone in the group's really excited because they're trying to conceive, but maybe someone else has had a loss and they don't wanna hear about it. Like, how do you balance that?

Yeah, I have a direct conversation in the group about, hey guys, how do we wanna manage this? Oh, a meeting. Yeah. A conference a direct conversation in the group about, hey guys, how do we want to manage this? Oh, a meeting. Yeah. A conference of sorts, yeah? Yeah. Yeah, because, you know, gosh, I don't know if your life is like mine, but my friends are my soulmates. Yeah.

And I just need them so much. Yeah. And you don't have to figure out, you don't have to be a mind reader and figure out on your own how you should be with your friends. You can just ask each other, you know, guys, you're going through this, you're going through this, I'm going through this. What are the ground rules? How do we want to respect each other around this? How can we make this like a really supportive environment? What do we need? I'll go first. here's what I need.

Yeah, oh, I love that approach. I'm a big like, if I think someone's mad at me, I'm like, are you mad at me? Like, what did I do wrong? Let me fix it. I love that approach. I almost feel like everyone's different too. Like I am again, a chronic oversharer.

And when I was going through IVF, I was super duper open about it and talked about it a lot with my friends and answered every question. Because I just I don't really mind. But I have some friends who are a lot more private with them. So it's almost like everyone has different boundaries when it comes to that topic. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that conversation creates space for people to have different boundaries. Yeah. It creates space for someone to say, like, for me, I just I don't want to share

as much like I'm totally open to hearing everything that you have to say, but I probably won't share as much. I'm just not quite as comfortable. Yes, period. Or, you know, this whole thing is hard for me to talk about. I totally want you guys to be able to support each other. I just put it on a different thread because I just can't right now. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's great. And I wonder if a lot of people experience this, honestly.

Also this might sound like a crazy question. Do you ever find that women, okay, like groups of women, I wonder if social media adds to this too, like get competitive with who can get pregnant first. Do you know what I mean? Yes, I know exactly what you mean. Is that a real thing? It's a real thing. It's not a crazy question. They do get competitive about who can get pregnant first. And let me tell you what's going to happen for you in a couple of years, Mari.

Oh God. Then they're going to get competitive about who could have the next baby and who's going to have more babies. No, I can't. I know. I know. It took me so long to get here. I know. I know. It's like a real thing. There's something so deep within us that our value is so tied to reproduction and fertility. It's just like we can't help ourselves. I know. It feels like it's instinctual. Yeah. And I never felt competitive with my journey.

I think because maybe I was the one of the first of my friends to like start trying and then I was going through, I just always felt like I was in my own zone. But now I'm just noticing the older I get, the more girls are talking about it. And it feels like there's this underlying current of, well, who's going to get pregnant first? Yes. Yes. Yeah.

My experience was after, so after I had my son and I developed a whole new group of friends, my mommy friends, you know, that happened. Does that happen? Yeah. 100%. Okay. Yeah. You got to have friends that have kids and it's especially helpful if you have friends

that have kids that are the same age as your kids. Okay. It's very important. Nice. And I'm really lucky because my mommy friends are my real friends. Like I would be friends with them even if they didn't have kids my age, the age is my kids, because it's a true friendship. I really love them. Shout out to Katie. Love you girl. Katie, I hope Katie's listening. What happened for me was my mommy friends then started having their second kid. And sometimes even their third kid while I was going through IVF. I would just see my friends having more and more kids and it was so hard.

And there was this weird thing that happened for me where I felt like I wasn't a real mom if I only had one kid. Oh, yeah. Can you believe this? Yeah. It still shocks me to this day, but I really felt that. I'm not a real mom. Real moms have more than one kid.

And I'm like, where did I learn that from? That's so weird. I can so imagine it. Obviously, I don't know what it feels like, but I can imagine that feeling. Yeah, but I felt like an imposter. Yeah. I'm like, oh, I just have one kid. I'm not a real mom. And like, it's just not, now I can look back and I'm like, it's just not true. No, no. Like I was a mom from the moment he was in my womb.

Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it does kind of feel, I've like started to, I have some mum friends and like listening to the way they talk and just seeing how things go. Is it almost like the more kids, the better? Like, is that sort of the, I can't even imagine the head space I'm gonna feel like. Yeah.

And I also, I'm kind of rambling a little bit, but after going through this for so long and just thinking about it for so long, I can imagine that once I have a baby, I would like to wait a year plus because I just don't wanna really think about it anymore. Yeah. You know what I mean? You wanna be free.

Yes. You wanna have peace, my gosh. Yes. And you deserve it. Yeah, and enjoy it. And you know what? You deserve to just enjoy having a baby. Yeah, yeah.

Rather than thinking about having a baby. Yes. You deserve to enjoy having your baby, Mari. Yeah, for sure. And let me tell you, as someone who has a big age gap, you know, and it wasn't intent, I didn't wanna have a big age gap, but I have one, like a five-year age gap.

There was something really, really special about having all that time with my son, just the three of us, me and my son and my husband. Still, I would go back and change it. I would not want to have had to go through IVF. Like, don't get me wrong, I would never choose that. But you do try to see the good. And for me, part of the good was I had a lot of uninterrupted time with my son. And now I know what it's like to have two kids and it's a lot and it's a big juggle and you don't get as much individual time with your second child as you do your first because you're having to take care of two of them. Yeah. So I just want you to like revel in being a mom and enjoy having your baby. Yeah. And you'll know when the time is right. Yeah, for sure.

I feel like you can trust your intuition, Mari. I think so too. I feel good about it. I feel like actually being pregnant, I feel much more sure of my decisions than I ever have. Like decisive. That's wonderful. Which is a good feeling.

I used to struggle with that. What would you recommend of how to help someone going through a loss? Like let's say we have a friend, because it's really difficult to put yourself in their shoes unless you go through it yourself. And I haven't even been through a loss. I obviously went through the HCG issue

where they basically told me I was losing the baby, but I never did. So how can I or other people help their friends going through miscarriage, especially if you're pregnant also? I think that you be direct and honest with your friend about not knowing what to do and not knowing what they need and then assure them of your availability.

So that might sound something like this. I know that there's no way that I can possibly empathize with what you're experiencing right now. I don't know what it's like, and I can only imagine how hard it is, but I will never know. And I don't know what to say, and I don't know what to do that would be helpful. But I want you to know that if there were something I could say or do, I would do it in a heartbeat. And if you have feedback for me about what I can do, I want to hear it. Amazing. That's one approach.

Yeah. Another approach you can take is you can just start doing things that are of service. So instead of asking someone, what can I do to help? That is a burden for the person, because then they're like, oh, they gotta think of what you could, you know what I mean? Just go ahead and do it, you know? Drop off, you know, a big tinfoil thing

of spaghetti and meatballs at the doorstep and say, text and say, hey, spaghetti and meatballs on your doorstep. Yeah, great. You know? Like pick things that like everybody wants and needs and say, Hey, spaghetti and meatballs on your doorstep. Yeah. Great. You know, like pick things that like everybody wants and needs and loves who doesn't love spaghetti meatballs, you know? Yeah. Or like, you know, just send over a gift certificate for a laundry service or for a

house cleaning service. You know, just do something and be like thinking of you, I know it's a really hard time. And let that just do it. Don't ask them necessarily what they need. Yeah, you know, because then that becomes a burden for them to think about and tell you how you can be helpful. Totally. Think about yourself and what would be helpful to you if you were going through a hard time. Yes. And then give it to them. I love that. Yeah, I think that's fantastic. And don't get so hung up on the details. You don't have to get the perfect gift. You don't have to find the perfect flowers. Just like do something. Yeah. Do something. I love that. I think that's great. Okay. I saw some questions from the community about this actually. For someone who's going through maybe a relationship or marriage strain due to infertility. Yeah. Do you have any recommendations there? Okay, yes. The very first thing is for people to know that going through infertility is one of the hardest, most poignant stressors a marriage can face. So baseline what I want you to know if you're out there and you are having a hard time in your marriage because of infertility, that is to be expected.

It's really hard for me to imagine how a couple could go through infertility and IVF without having the stress impact the relationship. You're not at your best. You're constantly waiting on answers that are life-changing, you are so out of control, any illusion of control that you thought that you had is totally gone. And on top of it, there's this weird thing of like, now we have to time our sex at this time. And sex goes from hopefully being something that was enjoyable and organic to like this

very high stakes endeavor. Yeah, it's stressful. It's stressful. Yeah. It takes something that the purpose of it is supposed to be connecting and fun and turns it into this high stakes endeavor that is very stressful. So a lot of couples lose that way that they used to feel connected, right? It takes something that used to be fun and is now not fun anymore.

So I guess the baseline that I want to start from is you're not alone. Every couple going through this is having impacts on their relationship. You might not see it from the outside, but it's happening. The other piece is that, look, when you're going through infertility, if the infertility is due to a female factor, right? Sometimes infertility is due to a male factor. We're talking to a lot of women right now.

If it's due to a female factor, what's happening if you have a male partner is probably that he's feeling a lot of the same losses that you are feeling, except he's not the one going through them. So it's like he doesn't have, I know my husband felt like the things we're going through are so hard, but it's worse for you.

And so I have to be the strong one. I can't really have my feelings about it because yeah, I'm going through it too, but it's worse for you. And I think for my husband over time, two years, that really takes a toll of always having to center your partner in their experience and kind of swallow your own experience to be the strong one. That really can really chip away at someone.

So I really recommend that men try to find like groups, support groups, people that they can talk to what they're going through because their experience is not centered in all of this. And then it becomes really, really hard to show up in the relationship. Yeah. So people don't think enough about how this impacts men, and it's very real. True, and it can be easy to slip into

a little bit of a resentment feeling, which feels horrible, you don't wanna do that, but when you're trying to figure out what's wrong or why it's not working, the worst thing you could do is turn on each other. That's right. But sometimes it happens because you're just so frustrated and confused. And there's so many ways that the stress can show up in your marriage.

I'll share with you something that happened for us just to kind of give a hint of there's so many different ways that your marriage can be impacted based on your circumstances. So I am seven years older than my husband. And my infertility or my difficulty maintaining a pregnancy was due to age-related factors. And it was the first time in our relationship that I really ever thought about our age difference. Because it never mattered before. It was the first time that I started feeling like, man, I'm a liability. Yeah. And it made me feel bad about myself. And it made me have these like, you know, I would tell myself these lies in my head, like, you know, he could do better.

He wouldn't have to be going through all this if he had just married someone his age or younger. My husband could be with a 30 year old right now, you know, and it really started the cycle of lies of like, I'm not good enough. And that can that really, if you let that go, and you let that spiral, that can really infiltrate a relationship. For sure. So we really had to like, deal with that like head on. Yeah. And he was able to like, until I told him this is where my mind is going, he didn't know to tell me I would choose you 100 times out of 100. If I could be with a 30 year old, I would never want that, you know, but he had to know what I was thinking. I had to be vulnerable and

admit that in order for him to give me what I need. Yes. Which is, Molly, I would take you 100 times out of 100. I wouldn't want an easier journey with a younger person. You know? Yeah. And that's how it was solved. But it was really scary for me to say that to him. Yeah, because, yeah, you have these thoughts where you're like, I can never say that out loud.

Right. This is like my deepest vulnerability. Yes. Facing it head on is kind of usually the only way. Or I'm having these thoughts and feeling like this, what should we do about it? And kind of becoming a team. We're going through this together. I like that. Yeah. And I know Greg was very involved and I love that for you. I think there's another presentation where the woman's just kind of taking it all on herself and the

guy's like, well, I can't do anything about this. So, and that's a very isolating experience for both people. Yes. So you have to find ways to connect over it, but you also have to have boundaries that allow you to have a relationship outside of infertility and IVF. Not every conversation can be about that. You have to find ways to say, you know what, we're out to dinner. We're not going to talk about that tonight. There is more to life than our struggle having a baby. 100%. And find each other in that again. Yeah, such great advice. Yeah, no, you're right. Greg was very involved and I'm so lucky that he was.

And even now, like Friday is my day that I hit the next week. So I'm 16 weeks today. And every time I get to see that new fruit on my app that I hit the next week. So I'm 16 weeks today. And every time I get to see that new fruit on my app, I run to him, because we have so much fun seeing what fruit it is. What's the fruit? It's an avocado.

Oh my God. Great fruit, yes. Great fruit. But it's just so sweet having these moments with him now, because we've been through so much the past couple years together. And I just see the look on his face when I get to tell him this new fruit and it's so silly and whatever, but like it is so special at the same time.

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That is B-L-I-S-S-Y.com slash pow pod, P-O-W-P-O-D, and use code pow pod to get an additional 30% off your skin and hair, we'll thank you. Okay, let's ask a couple more communities get an additional 30% off your skin and hair, we'll thank you. Okay, let's ask a couple more community questions because the girls had questions and they're good. Can you provide insight on postpartum depression or anxiety? Oh, wow. Okay, here's why it's so complicated, because when you are in that space, you don't know that you're in that space. This is why it is so important to have people around you that can be a mirror for you and

reflect back to you what they see. So somebody who can say to you, Mari, I love you so much. I know you. How you're showing up right now, it's different. And I think that I'm seeing something in you that isn't consistent with how you normally are. And I really, really, really want you to feel well. And I think you might not be seeing

like what we're seeing. So you need mirrors around you that are paying attention to your well-being and are willing to reflect to you what they see. And then there are these guidelines that it's like, if you're depressed for six weeks, that's called the baby blues, but if it goes beyond six weeks, that's depression. I don't know, man. Having a baby is the single most transformative experience of your life ever.

It's going to take some time to adjust, and your hormones are on a roller coaster. So I just say give yourself time, but you also don't have to be in it completely by yourself. You don't just have to be on the roller coaster with absolutely no agency. You know, be talking to your doctor about how you feel. Every time you go into the doctor, they should be giving you a mental health screener that asks you how often you're having difficult feelings. And they'll count up your score and they'll tell you if it reaches a level that is something where you might want to consider a different type of intervention like an SSRI or something.

But I'm, of course, totally biased. I'm a big fan of therapy. And if you can set yourself up to have a therapist with you as you go through this transition, that will be another mirror for you, someone who can say, here's what I see in you, Mari. Here's what I think you might want to consider. It's like an unbiased opinion too. It's not like a friend. You don't feel attacked.

It's like this is the person who's supposed to help you. And it's a person who's hopefully an expert, you know, in this. So they would know. Yeah, I love therapy. I think it's everything. I do every week. Me too. You do? Oh, yeah. You have your own therapist? Oh, yeah. I love my therapist. Love that. Shout out to my therapist. Any advice on body image during pregnancy?

We talked about that a little bit. And it is a interesting thing to go through. Quite a dramatic shift. Any advice there? Well, I'll share what I experienced and I know what I experienced is different than what you experienced. So maybe you can share a little too.

But I was afraid of getting pregnant because of gaining weight and how it was gonna, everyone told me it was gonna change my body. I was very afraid. And I went, it was like a part of the reason, like even when I got married, I like didn't wanna get pregnant right away because I was like, oh my God,

I know it's gonna be so hard, losing weight is gonna be so hard, I don't want my body to change. And so it was something I very much dreaded. And really like, there was energy around this that I was like dreading my body changing. For me, when I got pregnant, I never felt more beautiful in my life. I just let myself eat whatever I wanted. And for me, the experience of pregnancy really freed me from a lot of my body dysmorphia because I started really thinking more about what my body was doing rather than what my body looked like.

I shifted from becoming an object to becoming embodied. And I was no longer looking at myself and judging my body. It was more just like, I was like, wow, look at what my body's doing. And I don't know, it's like the growth of my body and my boobs getting so big and my butt getting big and my stomach getting big, like stomach getting big. It felt so feminine to me. It was healing to me in a way because I started seeing my body as more than just an object for men to look at. I was like, oh, I'm so much more than that. I'm God's child.

And my body is doing this incredible thing. So for me, it was very healing. Yeah. But I know it's not that way for everyone. I love that mindset though. That is really therapeutic to even hear. That's my advice. Yeah.

See if you can start thinking and tapping into what your body is doing, rather than viewing yourself as an object. Yes. I feel like I feel that way when I see the ultrasound. And I'm like, oh my gosh, something's really alive inside me. Like that makes me really register it. Yeah, I had a little bit and I feel a lot better now actually. But at the beginning, well, actually even just a couple of weeks ago,

I had a moment I talked about on the show in a public gym where I looked in the mirror and I felt like I was looking at me before I lost weight. And I had this triggering moment where I was so upset and it immediately brought me back to that headspace. I'm lazy, I let my life slip away from me. And I had to really work out of that feeling. And I'm sure people who have gone through weight loss probably could resonate. Now that I feel like I look a little bit more pregnant, I love it.

Like I like showing my belly and like, I wanna look pregnant. I can't wait to have a big belly. But at first, when your body's, you kind of just look a little bit bloated at the beginning. That was the tough part for me. And I'm still a little bit in that, but yeah, it's been an adjustment for sure.

And I think also when you go through infertility, you're kind of like, well, I'm not allowed to feel sad. Or people tell that you can't feel sad. Because you should just be grateful. Yes, yeah. That's what we talked about last night. Like two things can't exist at the same time. Yes.

I can be grateful, but also freaking out. Right. How can I forgive myself for the abortion I had? Yeah, that's real. Abortion is also a loss. Yeah. But it takes on an extra layer because it's a loss that you chose.

Yeah. But please don't forget that it was still a loss. It's different for everyone. And not everyone experiences abortion as loss. But if someone feels that they need to forgive themselves for an abortion, then that tells me you experienced your abortion as a loss, right? And a loss that you chose. Maybe you would make the same choice over again.

Maybe you wouldn't. I don't know. But I think that you need to grieve the loss. Talk to yourself like you would a friend with compassion. So you can say things like, you made the best choice you could with the circumstances and the information that you had at that time. Yeah. Right. And, you know, it's hard because some people have no regret whatsoever about their abortion. and that is completely valid. This woman sounds like there's a piece of her that, you know, at least has a part of shame and regret around it.

And I think grieving the loss and then being compassionate with yourself about you did the best that you could with the information, resources, and knowledge that you had then. Because we're all just doing the best that we can. Yep. You know? Yep.

And Lord knows that there are choices that I made previous in my life that I now could judge based on the resources, knowledge and information that I have today. But I wasn't that person then. I didn't have those things. So you can't go back and make a different choice from a place of being the person you are now. You have to give yourself grace that you did the best that you could with what you had then and grieve the loss. So well said.

And I don't see that topic spoken about very often. No. So I'm glad that was asked. How do you explain to someone that even when you're finally pregnant, it might still hurt to see others get pregnant easily? I don't know if I actually really feel that way, but someone asked that and I thought it was relevant.

I felt that way. Yeah. Yeah. Even if you get pregnant through IVF, there are things that you lost. You lost the element of surprise. Yes, for sure. You lost the element of ease. Yeah. You lost the element of spontaneous sex with your partner.

Mm-hmm. You know, it didn't happen for you the way you wanted it to. Nobody is like, yes, I can't wait to get pregnant through IVF, right? It didn't happen for you the way that you wanted. And you still, at least I still had this sort of fantasy in my mind of what it is and feels like to get pregnant without all of that pain and loss associated with it.

Yeah, I do feel that. Like man, how nice that must be. To just be pregnant without having to go through trauma first, to just like enjoy your pregnancy and not be a traumatized person. Yeah. You know, I really get that. I think I felt a sting, but then it goes away. Yeah. Because you got what you wanted and you can rest in that.

Yes. Yeah. And I think I also get excited to be pregnant with other people. That's kind of what I channel it into. Yeah. But I do very much understand this feeling. Like I did grieve losing that. I always envisioned like finding out I'm pregnant one day and oh my goodness, and the way I was gonna tell Greg, none of that happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's okay. It doesn't mean that you're not grateful to be pregnant.

It doesn't mean that you're not excited to be pregnant. You are, it's just, you can feel lots of different things at the same time. Absolutely. Because we're complex people. There's a great area. Big fan of the gray area. Dr. Molly, thank you so much for this amazing conversation.

This is seriously, I think my favorite episode I've ever done. It was so fabulous. Can you please tell everyone where they can find you online, any resources, if they want to work with you, all the things. Yeah. So on Instagram, my handle is at DrMollyBuritz. So that's D-R-M-O-L-L-Y-B-U-R-R-E-T-S. My website is www.DrMollyBuritz.com. There's a lot of free resources on my website

and more to come soon. Also, I've got a podcast in the works that I'm really excited about. So if you follow me, you'll get lots of information about that. Yeah. I can't wait. I think that's going to be so fabulous. Thank you so much and have a safe flight back to California. Thank you. Thanks for having me, Mari. Thank you for joining us on the Pursuit of Wellness podcast. To support this show, please

rate and review and share with your loved ones. If you want to be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred podcast or video player. You can sign up for my newsletter to receive my favourites at marieloellen.com. It will be linked in the show notes. This podcast is a Pursuit Network production brought to you by Michaela Phillips, Joel Contartese, Davielle Waldner, and Mackenzie Maisel. You can also watch the full video of each episode on our YouTube channel at Pursuit of Wellness podcast.

Love you, Power Girls and Power Boys. I will see you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and does not constitute a provider-patient relationship. As always, talk to your doctor or health team.