Pursuit of Wellness - Why Protein & Muscle Are So Important + Ozempic (the truth) Weight Lifting & Fat Loss w/ Dr. Gabrielle Lyon

Episode Date: February 19, 2024

Ep #74 Muscle isn't just for bodybuilders; it's the cornerstone of a healthy life. Dr. Gabrielle Lyon joins me to chat about muscle-centric medicine and its profound impact on weight management and longevity.  Dr. Lyon's shares her journey, where she challenges traditional weight loss paradigms with a refreshing focus on muscle health. We dive into the connection between muscle mass and brain health, debunk myths about plant-based diets, and navigate the controversial world of protein intake for various life stages. Leave Me a Message - click here! For Mari’s Instagram click here! For Pursuit of Wellness Podcast’s Instagram click here! For Mari’s Newsletter click here! For Dr. Lyon’s instagram click here! For Dr. Lyon’s book Forever Strong click here! Show Links: White Oak Pastures  Simon Hill Episode Paul Saladino Episode Paleo Valley Meat Sticks Forever Strong: A New, Science-Based Strategy for Aging Well Sponsored By: Bite is offering our listeners 20% off your first order. Go to trybite.com/POW or use code POW at checkout to claim this deal If you want to get on my daily routine, you can get 30 days free of Open by visiting withopen.com/POW  Get 15% off your first purchase at kosterina.com with code POW

We're talking about muscle and we're talking about dietary protein because in essence, we're talking about being a fully capable and optimized human. This is the Pursuit of Wellness podcast, and I'm your host, Mari Llewellyn. What's up, guys? Welcome back to the Pursuit of Wellness podcast. Today I have a highly requested guest, Dr. Gabrielle Lyon. You've probably seen her all over the internet. She is the queen of muscle and protein in my eyes. She is the founder of the Institute for Muscle Centric Medicine. She is also an accomplished board certified family physician

and a distinguished New York Times bestselling author, most known for her latest work, Forever Strong, a new science-based strategy for aging well. She is talking to us today about the importance of muscle and why it's so important for weight loss, health, longevity, why we need to be eating more protein and so much more. She was incredible. I think Dr. Gabrielle Lyon is such a boss. She has two kids, she's jacked, she's strong, and she's so, so smart. Today, we're going to talk about her experience as a doctor and how she noticed that a lot of sick patients also had low muscle mass and the impact that low muscle mass can have on the brain. What is insulin resistance and why does it impact our weight and muscle? Dr. Gabrielle's take on the trend for women

to do lower impact workouts like walking and Pilates, her thoughts on Pilates specifically, her thoughts on plant-based diets and what you should be eating and the supplements you should be taking if you want to get in enough protein, how much protein you should be using, how much protein you should be eating if you want to get pregnant, and the type of protein you should be using. How much protein you should be eating if you want to get pregnant and the type of diet you should be eating as well. And how much protein you should eat while pregnant. How to put together a meal with enough protein. Her thoughts on kids who are eating vegan. Can you gain muscle and lose weight at the same time? How important is sleep when it comes to building muscle? Her thoughts on Ozempic. This

one was surprising. How many times should we be strength training per week? And her thoughts on ready to drink proteins and collagen. You guys are going to love this episode. I know I did. I learned so much. Just a note, if you guys notice a little bit of a difference in the audio. We recorded this episode in Houston and had a slight issue once the recording was complete. We got a phone call from the studio letting us know that the audio was kind of completely messed up after the first 15 minutes. So we did have to pull the audio from the cameras. So if you notice a little bit of a quality difference, I do apologize. But I knew this episode had so much value in it. I did not want to rerecord it. I

wanted to get the fresh, true conversation. So without further ado, let's hop right in and I hope you enjoy. Dr. Gabrielle, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me. You are such an icon to me. You are a board certified family physician, a New York Times bestselling author, a mother, the founder of multiple businesses. You are the queen of protein and muscle in my eyes. I'll take it. No pressure.

I feel like I see you everywhere and it's clear how passionate you are about truly helping people feel their best, look their best, help with their longevity. I want to ask first how you personally became so interested in muscle and protein. Yeah. How long do we have? Just kidding. Let's go. Let's go. It's a really good question because behind every mission, there's always a story. Otherwise, it's just a thing somebody does. And I have to say, from very early on, I was interested in nutritional sciences from the get-go at 17 years old.

And I never changed, which is unusual. So I don't know if you believe in fate or if there's just serendipity in the world. But I graduated high school early, moved in with my godmother. You know, you've heard of functional medicine, right? This was the, my godmother was a PhD, is a PhD in nutritional sciences. The group before functional medicine was a thing. You've all heard of Mark Hyman. Mark Hyman, really, when people think about functional medicine, they think about him.

But before functional medicine was called functional medicine, there was a handful of providers that got together and created this idea that there's root cause medicine. My godmother was one of those people. So I moved in with her and started learning nutritional sciences very early. From then, I thought that that was the key, that it was all about nutrition, and that was the way to help people get better. I did my undergraduate in nutritional sciences, protein metabolism under one of the world-leading experts, Dr. Don Laymond, who I dedicated my book to, then decided I needed to go to medical school. Went to medical school, fast forward, and then I did a fellowship. So I did two years of psychiatry, three years of family medicine, and then I did a fellowship

in nutritional sciences, geriatrics, and obesity medicine. People will think, wow, that seems like that's a broad net, but actually it is very narrow. And it was there that everything came together. I saw this one participant. She was an older lady. I say older in her mid fifties, mom of three. And she had been following what everyone told her to do, which was exercise more, eat less. She lost the same 20 pounds for 20 years. And we imaged her brain in one of these studies, and her brain looked like the beginning of an Alzheimer's brain. And it was at that moment that I realized we were focusing on the wrong tissue. She didn't have an obesity problem.

What she had was a muscle problem. And all my sickest patients had the same problem low muscle mass yeah wow so you can see that having lower muscle mass is impacting the body outside of just weight totally impacting the brain yes and here's the wild part about it is that right now all we talk about is this obesity epidemic that 70 of adults are either overweight or obese, and that obesity is the cause of all of our problems. If that's true, then why are those individuals that are overweight or obese, why is it that only 30% have diabetes. If it was a fat problem, then 100% of them would have diabetes. On the flip side of that is maybe it's a muscle problem. What do you classify someone as having low muscle mass? Great question. The definition is really around sarcopenia, which is low muscle mass and

strength. And there are charts that people could look at. But the reality is we know where low muscle mass would be. Right. And again, you can pick up the charts, you know, and you can see. But the important aspect of that is what would optimal muscle mass be? And we don't have those numbers. We only guess. And once we and obviously it would be very difficult to determine because your body type is different than my body type is different than your husband's body type. But what we do know is that the more healthy skeletal muscle mass an individual has, the greater their survivability. And even I know that you have a younger female audience, even with fertility, muscle mass and body composition is important for fertility. We're going to dive into that more. Yes. A lot of the girls listening, I mean, I told you before, candidly, I'm trying to get pregnant.

I think a lot of the people listening are interested in fertility. A lot of them are pregnant currently, so we're going to talk about that. What would you say are the biggest myths that you are battling day to day when it comes to muscle and protein? The biggest myth for women, believe it or not, is that they're afraid of getting too bulky. That if they lift weights and eat something other than a salad, that they will get bulky. Nothing could be further from the truth. That's number one. And again, I still see patients and I will tell you that is the number one statement that people make. The other thing that I'll hear is that animal proteins are bad for me. I should be going plant-based and that's what's going to really move the needle.

That is also what I would consider a myth when it comes to body composition. And if there was a third myth, I would say that, no, I think I'll just stick to those two myths. But yeah, I'll stick to those two. Those are the biggest misconceptions. I feel like muscle and protein have the worst PR team. Like you are single-handedly carrying the PR team of muscle on your back. Where does this come from? Because I personally lost 90 pounds just weightlifting.

That's incredible. I've looked the leanest I've ever looked and the best I've ever looked weightlifting and eating meat. And that's just the truth. That's incredible. But I just don't understand where this bulk narrative is coming from. Well, when you think about protein and you think about muscle, you often think about dudes in the gym. It's just the way that it is. I have no idea where that came from.

But if you go to any gym, I know that you're going to a gym tomorrow. I bet you that the majority of the guys will be in the weight room and the majority of women will be on the cardio machines. Again, I don't know where that came from, but it is our job to really change that because nothing is going to be more impactful in my opinion than having high quality skeletal muscle and also putting in the effort to put on muscle while you are younger. If you are in your 20s, this is the time to do it. 20s and 30s, it does become more difficult to put on and maintain muscle as you age. Doesn't mean that you can't do it, right? But it does become more challenging.

And we have to really think about what is the future for us. What are we really trying to do? The behaviors that we have now in our 20s and 30s really impact our 40s, 50s, and 60s. And I think that the other challenge is most people won't say, wow, I have unhealthy muscle. I feel it. Nobody says that. You might say, I don't feel great because my blood sugar is all over the place. I'm getting really tired. I, you know, I'm always hungry, those kinds of things, but people don't feel unhealthy skeletal muscle. And that is one reason why I think it's really, it's just been so overlooked. And then the other aspect is it takes a lot of effort. You cannot pay for muscle. You cannot Botox muscle to become bulky. At least I haven't seen that to be true. I'm sure someone

on the internet will tell me that in fact you can. There's all these things. But skeletal muscle requires you to become a certain type of person. It requires you to become disciplined. It requires you to take action. It requires you to do hard things and be able to push through physical discomfort. I am flying to London tonight and I'm landing in the morning and going straight into meetings and I want to make sure I'm feeling fresh. And I already know I'm going to be packing my Bite toothpaste. I've told you guys about Bite before and I'm still obsessed. I'm not sure why we aren't all using Bite at this point. It is so much better than regular toothpaste. Did you know we swallow about five to seven percent

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Have you seen that statistic that there are more millionaires in the world than people with six packs? Because it's so difficult to develop muscle and what you say is so true when i first got into fitness i had this my goal was to become a strong person just in general not just physically like a strong individual and i felt like the best representation of that was muscle particularly for women because it's difficult i agree it takes consistency and hard work and i feel like it is such a powerful statement to walk into a room and have like a bicep. And be physically strong.

Yes. And when you think about these strong girl numbers, think about it. Women will say, well, I don't want to lift that weight because I'm going to become bulky. I have a toddler who weighs 40 pounds. I am 5'1", maybe 110 pounds. No one would look at me and go, oh, that girl is bulky.

And so we have these limitations. Think about putting a suitcase in an overhead bin on the airplane. Yeah. I don't know if you pack like me, but I'm right there at the 50 pound mark. And we think that these things are going to make us bulky when in fact it's not true. And we require strength to get through our life day to day. It's a functional exercise. Yeah. And then this idea that if we focus on fat, again, fat is a symptom in part of unhealthy skeletal muscle. And if your listener is thinking about getting pregnant, caring about their blood markers now, things like insulin and glucose, and maybe they have a grandparent with dementia. These diseases of aging, what we think about aging actually begin in your 20s and 30s,

probably closer to your 30s. But again, insulin resistance can begin at any age. Insulin is a hormone that's secreted by the pancreas that moves glucose out of the bloodstream into cells. We require it. Can you explain what insulin resistance is? Because I hear about it a lot. I think I have a loose understanding, but I'm not quite sure how it works. Yeah. So just simply put, again, when you ingest glucose, the body, you know, glucose is toxic at high levels.

That is the definition of diabetes over a two-hour period of time. If your blood sugar remains elevated, The body will require insulin as a mechanism to lower blood sugar. And so when blood sugar gets too high or when blood sugar, when there's a robust amount of blood sugar, the body will produce insulin to lower that. And that's what the pancreas does. And over time, if you continue to eat a diet that is, let's say, high in carbohydrates, let's say you have low muscle mass, let's say you're not exercising, the body will require more and more insulin to address that glucose. And over time, the body becomes resistant to insulin and requires more and more and more. Is that a part of having PCOS? It is. How does it impact hormones?

It's one of the primary defects is skeletal muscle, skeletal muscle insulin resistance. It can change, again, the hormone profile of the body, increasing testosterone. There's all different ways in which PCOS can impact the body as it relates to fertility. And people don't address, I mean, again, there's multiple mechanisms for PCOS. So I don't want to say that skeletal muscle is the only, but skeletal muscle is a primary defect in PCOS. So if someone listening has PCOS or they're struggling with a hormone imbalance, you would say increasing muscle mass would be helpful. I would say increasing muscle mass, getting your metabolism under control, managing body fat, managing blood glucose, all of this will help.

Yes. What do you think? I've been dying to ask you this and I feel like I know what you're going to say. What do you think of this trend slash movement for women doing low impact workouts like walking and Pilates? Because there's this perception that high cortisol workouts are negatively impacting our hormones. Here's the thing. The body was designed to exist under challenge. I mean, the idea that we would take away what our body was designed to adapt to reminds me of this way of trying to raise strong children by removing any kind of stimulus. What will you get? You will get

weak, non-resilient humans. I do not think that that is the way to do it. Again, chronic stress isn't great. It's definitely not great for pregnancy, but increasing cortisol through acute exercise, the body's designed to do these things i personally feel like i wake up with a level of anxiety that doesn't go away unless i exercise and i'm not saying i strength train every day i probably strength train four times a week right now maybe five and i feel like it is my most effective way of handling my stress same because you can't really think about anything else same you probably have that's right maybe you have high cortisol maybe you know your your adrenaline is higher absolutely your body is designed to move and we live in a very domesticated world

you have to really go out of your way to create challenges for yourself. This is true. This is true. And in fact, we don't even know, you know, that movie WALL-E. I feel that if we don't actually make decisions that make us stronger, we will end up like that. And I know that that's a bit extreme, but there's a lot of misinformation out there when it comes to training, when it comes to lowering cortisol, when it comes to doing these things. Again, everybody is different. I know when I was trying to get pregnant, I was doing a lot of really intense training. I did change that up. I reduced my high intensity interval training to heavier lifts. I slowed it down. I wasn't doing a whole bunch of metabolic conditioning. Yeah, that's such a good point because I do think doing a whole bunch of metabolic conditioning. Yeah. That's such a good point because I do think people have this perception of weightlifting

that it has to be super high heart rate movement. Yeah, not at all. You can slow it down and do the heavy reps. I feel like that's such an effective way of having a good workout but not getting too crazy with it. Right. And we talked about insulin and insulin resistance and glucose. Well, exercising skeletal muscle doesn't require insulin. If you want to sensitize your body

to glucose, one great way to do that is through exercise. Skeletal muscle is the primary site of disposal for glucose. So your view on Pilates? You know, I had mentioned this before, and I think it went up to the Pilates hotline. I think there was a bat signal to the Pilates hotline that Dr. Lyon had said something that Pilates wasn't the main driver for strength. And I got a lot of Pilates hate. i'm picturing all these girls and like like mean girls being like what did you mean i mean you cannot say anything without offending somebody and the reality is is pilates good for you totally is yoga good for you yes do i feel that pilates is the number one way to put on skeletal muscle mass and to build strength?

No, I don't. I agree with you. Otherwise, that the Navy SEALs and the military operators, they would not be lifting weights. All they would be doing is Pilates. I like Pilates and I was doing it like once a week with a friend as like my rest day um in LA but what pissed me off is when I would see instructors or influencers claiming that that's how they got their butt or that's how they got their arms and it's no like you're not you're not getting a big butt doing Pilates I mean they're right there's a rep continuum I mean maybe they could be but it's probably not the most efficient way to do it. I mean, it's just not.

And also, I think that as people, we need to get a little less offended by everything. I could go off on that. You know, because the reality is, are you getting offended because you're not wanting to look at a different point? Or are you getting offended because you don't want to do the work? So if you become offended, then you don't actually have to look at that thing that is offending you and do the action. Like, for example, I don't know, let's say we say that strength training is really important for health and wellness. And then all of a sudden we see these epidemiology studies that are really poorly designed that you should only be strength training you know 60 minutes a week right that's not true

this is all based again on epidemiology causation and correlation these things but if you believe that then you don't actually have to do the work so it just becomes a distraction for people there's a lot of this in the health and fitness space and i feel like me personally going through a weight loss journey i offend people just by existing because when you lose weight and you change your life and you have a glow up you you either have people who relate to where you were at and are inspired and want to join you on the journey or you have people who are so deeply insecure about where they are and knowing that they don't want to put in the work that you end up triggering them i see this all the time in the industry that we're in i think it's it's a very emotional space and that's why there's so much conflict.

And one thing that we know is when emotion gets high enough, it definitely skews someone's ability to receive and understand information. Think about it. At the height of one's emotional ability is not the place of making good decisions. Right. And it takes a certain level of self-awareness to say, like me at the beginning of my journey, I knew I was undisciplined. I knew that I was overweight. I knew that I was treating myself badly. And you need to take that responsibility in order to take the next step. But that part's hard. So I feel like it takes people a long time to get there. But the real, the truth to that is,

it's much more difficult to be undisciplined and live a life where you ultimately regret things. It's miserable. That's much more difficult. I've been there. It's miserable. Yeah. And so when we talk about muscle and we talk about dietary protein, it's not because we're talking about these things because it's just those things. We're talking about muscle and we're talking about dietary protein because in essence, we're talking about being a fully capable and optimized human. It's a lever. It's an access point to be able to take any excuse off the table, to be able to become physically strong. You're not going to become physically strong without putting in physical training that ultimately requires an adaptation. You're not going to be able to build muscle if you don't have enough dietary protein to recover,

to build. These are the building blocks. There are, you know, essential amino acids that you must get from the diet. And then I'm sure a lot of your listeners are like, well, you know, plant and animal proteins, you know, there's this, this versus them. The reality is, if you're young, you can have plant protein and be fine as long as your protein is high enough. But again, it's not just about the protein. What about the things that ride along with dietary protein? If you're gonna choose a plant-based diet, then you're gonna have to be careful about carbohydrate intake.

You know that you're probably not gonna get enough B12 and bioavailable zinc and iron and selenium and creatine and all these other things that are really important. And if you choose high quality animal proteins, you will get those things. But it also doesn't have to be one or the other. It can be a combination of both. Let's talk about how to optimize for muscle. For someone listening, let's say they're a beginner. They have no idea where to start. How much protein do they need to be eating? Like,

how do they calculate that? The good news is if you're a beginner, you will be the one that has the quickest visual. You will be able to get the biggest impact. Let's say if you are untrained, the way that I like to think about it is number one, you have to determine where an individual is. The average female is getting maybe 70 grams of protein and maybe the average male is getting a 100 grams of protein. That means 50% are above and 50% are below that number. The first thing that I would have people do is track what are you actually eating? How much protein are you actually getting? And then for an individual who is just starting out, they could get from 1.2 to 1.6 grams per kg. That's not much. Let's say 0.7 grams per pound of ideal body weight. And that's not that terribly much. If an individual was feeling really robust and wanted to go to the higher end of protein, that would be one gram per pound ideal body weight. Okay. So if I'm 150 pounds, 150 grams of protein.

If that's where your ideal target is, but you could always go a little bit less, you would be fine at 130 grams. So is there a point where the benefits drop off? Like you hit a certain amount of protein where it's like there was no reason to eat that much. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, of course. The answer to that would be if it is taking away your ability to eat other foods. For example, if you're not able to get enough fruits and vegetables in because you're just solely focused on protein and you have zero appetite to be able to get some

of these other things. That also being said, eating cyclically can be helpful, right? Sometimes people will go through a period of time where they're eating more of a carnivore type vitamins, and then they'll add in fruits and vegetables. A way of eating doesn't have to be just one way. There's seasons, right? For example, if people wanted to get pregnant, I never recommend fasting. I typically increase their carbohydrates. We're not in a calorie deficit if you're going to go for being pregnant. So maybe instead of having an ultra high protein intake, maybe they're at a one to one ratio of protein to carbohydrates. So if your goal is 150 grams of protein, then your carbohydrate goal, because you're trying to get pregnant, could be 150 grams. Since moving to Austin, I have really set the intention

of meditating more, having more still time, doing more breath work. And I'm not the type of person who can just sit down and do it on my own. I really need help. And that's where the Open app has come in handy. I think I told you guys about my breath work class experience at the Open Studio in Venice, and it was absolutely incredible. They have so many different options on the app from breath work to meditation. They can focus on things like clarity, anxiety, focus, energy, sleep, and so much more. The way I feel before and after doing an open app session is mind-blowing. I love doing their meditations. I sit in front of my red light. I can hear the birds. I do my meditation. And the way I feel is simply just so much more calm and present in the rest of my day and also

grateful. And I love the fact that they have different options every single day. The breath work is so great if you're looking to kind of move through any emotion or have more clarity on something. And the meditations are fantastic before bed. This app is really, really life-changing. I highly recommend you guys try it. I really believe in this brand and I think just my breathwork class experience was so life-changing. I think that the app itself is so, so worthwhile. If you want to get on my daily routine, you can get 30 days free of Open by visiting withopen.com slash pow. Again, 30 days free by visiting with open.com slash pow. Okay, because I tend to be a higher fat, lower carb type gal. Like I really just have carbs at

dinner. And usually it's like a little bit of potato i don't know why i have this and i prefer it in terms of the way i feel and the way it tastes and i just feel like carbs don't sit well with me but you would recommend maybe increasing it during this fertility period i mean it depends because we know that fat is really important for fertility yeah it really just depends on how you feel best and of course if you, you're regularly menstruating and you're actually cycling appropriately. And that's really where that, you know, the focus should be. But I definitely recommend not being in the calorie deficit if you are going for fertility, for sure. A lot of people ask me how to build.

I think a lot of people don't know how to build a meal around their protein, which is kind of wild. How do you recommend very simply like putting together a meal that has enough protein? It's actually really easy. And also when people start with protein, they tend to be less hungry. If you have your choice of protein, carbs, and fats, and you start with dietary protein, you'll probably be able to manage your hunger for that meal better versus if you have dessert first. I recommend starting at 30 to between 30 and 50 grams of dietary protein, but let's take breakfast.

You could do a scoop and a half of whey protein or two scoops of whey protein. That's 40 grams of protein. That's so easy. 40 grams of protein, throw in a handful of berries, maybe mix it with almond juice, you know, throw in some MCT oil, whatever you want, and you have a meal. It's so easy. If you don't want to do that, you could have a handful of eggs, like four or five eggs. I know that's very offensive to some people. I was that was me before I got acne from it. OK, maybe some eggs. Same. Maybe some turkey bacon.

I do sausage and turkey bacon. That's so easy. And your goal is five ounces of whatever that protein source is, whether you're having chicken or maybe you'll have you know lean beef this morning my kids had um turkey bacon and some eggs for breakfast and they love it they love it okay i have a question i feel like people are going to get upset what do you have to say and i've encountered this a couple times in la to the parents who are deciding that their kids are vegan. I mean, that's child abuse, in my opinion. That's child abuse. Yeah.

I mean, that is, people can get upset all they want. They should look at, it's a luxury to be able to eat what we have. It's a luxury that we have access to red meat and organ-based foods. It's a luxury what nutrients do you feel like iron iron we know that they're the pregnant women and children if you they don't have enough iron um and protein they will have stunted growth and it's a real problem in other countries do you feel like it impacts brain development? It does.

We know that it impacts brain development. And at some point, it's not like you can go back in time. No, we are a society that has a lot of luxuries that we take for granted. And then we impose these views. And the rest of the world thinks probably thinks we're crazy with the decisions that we make yeah it's like why would you choose that when you have access to so much yeah out of curiosity when you pick your meat do you have a preference over chicken, beef? I pick red meats, low fat red meats because excess calories, excess calories and saturated fat, it really just depends. Calories do matter. Calories from protein doesn't matter nearly as much, but calories from excess

saturated fat in a total caloric picture is not ideal for some people. You would never pick a ribeye, for example? I would pick a lean ribeye. Okay. I would pick a lean ribeye, but I wouldn't pick a ribeye every day. Okay. And if I chose a ribeye, it would have to fit within my total calorie budget. One of the things that, you know, we always eat at home is, have you ever heard of certified Piedmontese? Yes. Okay, so they are buff cows. Have you ever seen these cows? Yes.

They are jacked. They are fully jacked cows, but they're very lean. You could get a ribeye that's very lean, might have six grams of fat. And by the way, nearly maybe 45% of the fat in red meat is monounsaturated. It's not saturated fat. Aren't Piedmontese always grass-fed too? Is that a myth? I don't know.

That's a great question. I mean, if you'd have to ask them. I think I saw that somewhere. But I'm not crazy. It's okay if it's, I would rather have a lean protein and not care if it's grass-fed than not have it at all,

than choose something else. I like hearing you say that because I do feel like there are people listening who may not have i mean when i go to the grocery store there's very few grass-fed grass finished options actually and what i always recommend is for people to maybe order it online i order a ton of our meat from white oak pastures i've heard they're amazing amazing have you had ma had Maui Nui venison? I have. Do you like it? Yes. It's good.

Yeah, it's amazing. I made meatballs out of it, actually. It's incredible. Yeah, I wasn't expecting to enjoy it, but I actually really liked it. And just think about how nutrient dense that is. Mm-hmm. Full of iron, B12, zinc, creatine.

We know creatine is good for the brain. These are good choices. And again, we have to circle back in what is the ultimate goal. I think the ultimate goal for health and wellness is, you touched on earlier, is discipline. And then from the things that we can do or the things that we ingest, it has to be high quality and nutrient dense. And one way to do that is through animal-based products. And, you know know i've been in

this space for 20 years and before social media it wasn't there it wasn't um this huge dichotomy that we see now it didn't exist it did not exist the split the way of dividing people through nutrition, I mean, it was much more subtle than it is now. There's a lot more morality and a lot more, I guess the word is wolves in sheep clothing, that will go and have a personal agenda because they believe it's a certain way and speak about those things. Yeah. And it's interesting being a podcast host because I talk to a lot of different people with different perspectives on things. And obviously, like I have the way I live my life, but I'm open to hearing from other people. I just had Simon Hill on the show and he has a very different perspective than you, than me paul saladito he kind of brought different science and it's so it's interesting to see the way that people um there's so much research and information like you could kind of pull a study for whatever you want yeah and again not all studies are done

appropriate yeah right so there's low quality evidence and then there's high quality evidence and i think it's really important to look at high quality studies and that becomes important when making decisions. That also being said certain things are going to work well for some people and certain things are going to work well for others. I had this question a lot and I think it was a big question for me when I first started. Can you gain muscle and lose weight at the same time i believe you can how do you recommend doing that it's very difficult right because the idea is um you're talking about body recomposition yeah and you know we do this in our clinic all the time and we do see people lose body fat and build muscle at the same time the way in which they do that is again you do have to track

your calories you have to figure out what is your maintenance calories. And again, with weight loss, oftentimes you have to do calorie reduction. But with muscle building, you would increase calories, whether it's 10 or 20 percent. But we typically start people on a weight loss, like calorie restriction, depending on what their goals are. And if they're eating enough protein, one gram per pound, ideal body weight. Again, when you're restricting calories, then you need a higher amount of protein

to maintain lean tissue. So not just skeletal muscle mass, but all lean tissue. And when you do that and you are training, you're still in a calorie deficit, we do see body recomposition. I like hearing that. I think a lot of people I saw in the Q&A I posted, someone said that they were obese and trying to lose weight. But she was confused because she was like, how do I make sure I'm eating enough protein while being in a calorie deficit? It shouldn't be a problem. Okay. Right.

That wouldn't be a problem. If someone is obese and trying to lose body fat, then you would pick her target body weight. So if her target body weight is 115 pounds and she's 200 pounds, you choose 150 grams of protein and you build everything else around that. That's exactly what I did. Yeah. So if she, her total calorie goal is, let's say when I was working on some of the early weight loss studies, let's say it was, I don't know, I'm just picking a number of 1500 calories. Then you build it around that. Okay. How important is sleep when it comes to building muscle? It's very important. There's some new data out of Galveston and what it showed is that one night of sleep restriction blunts muscle protein synthesis by 18%.

Stop. I mean, that's, but again, more studies about this have to come out. And then you see individuals like some of the SEALs and the military operators that will go through days with sleep deprivation. The one way to combat that is actually to increase resistance training and increase training when i first got into fitness i was obsessed with bikini competitors and bodybuilders and i would watch their like full day routine and something i noticed with the really big guys is they would just train eat sleep train eat sleep like sleep was a really important part of their routine and

i feel like that was the first time i kind of realized that obviously looking that way is a full-time job it is but as a normal person each part of your routine really is important and i'm gonna also tell you this when you have kids that goes out the window okay yeah wait how do you look so good and healthy and you have your muscle and you work out when you do not get sleep? So I have two little children. Let's, let's have a real talk. People can say, Oh, this study is this, this study is this, but until you are in the trenches, right? You are a mom of two little children with a husband who works a hundred to 120 plus hours a week. I have a child that is not quite three and one that is four and a half.

Okay. Let's talk about what it really takes to make things happen. How much sleep do you think I get a night? I don't even know the last time. The only time I get a full night's sleep is when I'm away from home you must look forward to trips yeah bye Felicia they're all you can I come with you absolutely not do you miss me no I do not don't let the door hit your butt on the way out the truth is is I would say that I'm nothing special but I would say that my habits are I would say that I'm nothing special, but I would say that my habits are, I would say that my discipline is, I was exhausted this morning.

My son got up at four in the morning. My husband is gone by five. I still woke up. I still got to the gym by 7 o'clock. What gets you there? Like, mentally, what gets you there? I rely on my standards. I have a really good friend and mentor who would be a wonderful guest.

His name is Ben Newman. Oh, yes. He changed everything for me. He changed everything for me. Because, you know, he said to me, you know, Gabrielle, it's not about goals. It's not about goals it's not about motivation it's all about your standards and he's right it is about standards exhausted when I tell you exhausted and then try taking your four and a half year old to the gym with you

which I do every morning I saw a video of you that's what we do on the row machine with a small child on your back. And I was like, is that real? It happens all the time. Happens all the time. But how great that you are setting that example for your children, right? Yes, it's important. And the reality is, does sleep matter? Absolutely.

I don't know how people wake up and have this perfect morning routine because when, you know, the reality is, is morning routines, sleep, it, once there is impact, right? Impact with the enemy, like say whatever, not that kids are the enemy, but it doesn't hold up. So you have to have such tightly dialed in behaviors that there's much more flexibility when things don't go well. For example, sleep. If my diet was not tight and my training was not tight and my discipline when I am studying or when I'm doing something scholarly or when I'm with a patient, I wouldn't be able to manage the things that I do. So for the moms out there listening, for the people that want to get pregnant, for the women that want to get pregnant,

thinking about what are the standards that you're going to set and what are the things that you're not going to be able to do. Yeah. I love that. And I also think when you, I talk about this all the time, when you develop develop habits like when i first started lifting hated going like it took so much mental energy for me to get myself there now it's not even an option it's just part of my day like it's kind of like on autopilot at this point and when you keep showing up every single day keeping your own promises it gets easier and easier and easier because there's no choice and you become a different type of person yes 100 and then you become a different type of person speaking to the pregnancy element yes with strength training yes do you recommend women's

strength train through their pregnancy i do obviously i'm not whoever is listening i'm not your doctor i might be but yes there are not a ton of studies on pregnant women because it's just very difficult to do. You know, you don't do a lot of studies on children. You don't do a lot of studies on pregnant women. I trained throughout my entire pregnancy. I trained kettlebells throughout my whole pregnancy and I had a hyperemesis gravidum, which means I threw out between 10 and 20 times a day for 10 months. It was impressive. Damn. And I trained throughout the entire pregnancy.

And then I, you know, I did two natural births. Stop. We are in the presence of greatness, you guys. Oh my gosh. Did they just pop right out? No. I was thinking to myself, all the people that say you don't remember how much it hurts. What are they talking about?

What are you talking about? That's such bullshit. And you have not given for it. What are you telling me? Oh, you see the gates of heaven open and then the angels come in. It's the most amazing thing. That shit hurts, man. But anyway, what do I think about pregnancy and training?

Sometimes it's very difficult. Again, so I threw up multiple times a day for a very long time I couldn't I had such a meat aversion that I used protein shakes wow that would be devastating for me it's gonna happen just let just whatever happens happens okay it doesn't matter it's temporary yeah it's temporary yeah and so what I remember I ran into my best friend my best, and I had a huge pretzel on Fifth Avenue. I was so nauseous that there I was eating a pretzel on Fifth Avenue from one of the carts. She was like, what are you doing? But it's fine. You should train throughout your pregnancy because there's something that there's this epigenetic change

that happens within you that happens within the fetus, the baby. You care about gestational diabetes. Remember I had mentioned that insulin pregnancy typically is an insulin resistant state because there's growth that's happening. You don't want elevated levels of blood sugar. You don't want elevated levels of blood sugar you don't want elevated levels of insulin doing resistance training is your best defense how much protein were you eating right now a minimum the recommendation is currently a minimum of 100 or 100 grams at least right because you need your if you are not providing it to the child it will take it from your body from your bones from your mouth like wherever it will get it to the baby but i was not super again it was very difficult to eat the first pregnancy but it's fine again it's fine okay women have been doing it for a very long time yeah and then i trained throughout the first trimester you're going to be exhausted and you do what you

can you shouldn't be hard on yourself there's all all kinds of changes. You'll sleep a lot. You'll fold three pieces of laundry and then that's it for the day. And the moms out there are laughing because you know what I'm saying is true and right, ladies. But you have to give yourself some grace, be a little flexible. And then once you're feeling better, really get back into training. It's not about hitting your one rep max, but it is, again, about maintaining a healthy body composition as much as possible. How long does it take for muscle to start breaking down when you don't train? This really comes from bed rest data. And if you are an older individual, for example, I say older, I use this number arbitrarily,

but when you think about it, the number one treatment that individuals get when they are sick or go into the hospital is bed rest. Bed rest happens. And a older adult could lose two kilograms of muscle in a week. That a lot how many pounds is that that's so 2.2 kilograms in one pound so that's like five pounds you know what this is making me think of ozempic we'll talk about ozempic okay but a younger individual it will take them you know it will take them a lot longer you know it's questionable if someone goes on bed rest you will certainly lose mass quickly you could lose mass in a week the way in which you can counteract that for the first week

or so would be dietary protein okay and again getting enough protein I don't care if you're eating animals or plants, but you're going to have to eat on the higher end of dietary protein. If you are more plant-based, you will need the higher end of dietary protein to cover that because the recommendations for minimums were based on individuals consuming animal-based products. What should plant-based people be eating for protein? What would you say is the best source? I mean, I don't think that plant-based protein is your best source because again, it's not just about the protein. It's about the full spectrum of what the food matrix has to offer. But typically soy or there's soy rice pea

blends, those kinds of things. Okay. But just making sure that they're getting 1.6 grams per kg. Really making sure that they're hitting a higher amount of protein. Of course, when you're younger, it's easier to be more plant-based. And as you age, it certainly becomes more difficult. Okay. I wish I could convince my parents to strength train. I feel like our parents' generation just kind of missed the boat with that, but I know it's really beneficial to have muscle as you age. Can you talk about that a little bit? It's your body armor. There's probably nothing more important than to have muscle, build muscle when you are younger and maintain it. These diseases that we see of, quote, aging,

like cardiovascular disease, like Alzheimer's, like just name it, hypertension, obesity, these are diseases that originate in skeletal muscle. And when there's some really interesting work from Bill Evans and what they show, this group shows that when you measure skeletal muscle mass directly, which we don't through DEXA, it's something called a D3 creatine and it tags creatine. 98% of creatine is in skeletal muscle. And it allows us to look directly at the amount of skeletal muscle mass someone has. It's actually the loss of skeletal muscle mass that has more negative impact on outcomes than the gain of body fat. So it's the loss of skeletal muscle. This is one of the reasons why we see an increase in insulin resistance and triglycerides and

diabetes and all these other metabolic derangements. It's not the gain of body fat. It's the loss of muscle. And as individuals age, the issue with muscle is it can become more difficult to put on. I say that I say that cautiously because when you look at the studies, they'll say healthy, sedentary adult. There's no such thing. Being sedentary is a disease state being there's activity and then there's sedentary behavior. And people think that being sedentary is this neutral kind of state it's a disease state for someone listening let's say they're and i doubt this but i'm just curious in their 60s you might be getting your by the way i was talking to your team before and your podcast is absolutely crushing it So I believe that you probably do have six-year-olds. I know I have one, and it's Fee's mom, who's a huge fan of yours.

Actually, we've got to give Kathy a shout out. She's probably dying right now. But she lifts weights. She's a savage. She's shredded. But let's say someone's listening who's 60 and hasn't started weightlifting yet. Is it too late? It's never too late.

The best time to start was yesterday. The second best time is today. It's never too late. The best time to start was yesterday. The second best time is today. It's never too late. I love that. And also it's necessary. It's the most important thing that someone can do because it's not just about strength. It's not just about power. It is about mobility. It is about being able to maneuver your body so that you can live a life that is independent. You have to be able to get up off the floor. You have to be able to go get groceries by yourself. I mean, this ruins people's lives. Falls, old people fall, right? And then they don't have the muscle to protect their bones. You know, the statistics are devastating for falls and the cascade of events that happen. Wow.

I want to jump back to Ozempic. Yeah. And the reason I thought of it is because there is an alarming amount of people on Ozempic. I mean, I was living in LA a week ago. And when I tell you... I heard they put it in the water. You would be shocked at how many people are on this stuff. And I don't know how much data there is about the results of it because it's so new. Maybe you've seen something. But what I've heard is that people are losing weight rapidly because they're barely eating, right? And they're losing

muscle with it. What are the dangers of something like this? First of all, we use Ozempic all the time in our practice. We use Ozempic and Monderno all the time. I've never seen anything work more effectively for individuals who have weight to lose. Wow. Here's the catch. I believe that it is going to be part of many longevity protocols because it can be used in appropriate people, in appropriate doses, having them eat protein and train. Again, we track all this stuff. They don't lose muscle mass.

Our patients do not lose muscle mass. Okay. The ideal person for a Zempig, do they have to be obese? Again, the definition of overweight or obesity, let's say obesity, 30% body fat. I think that that is probably very generous. I think that there is some perspective that if someone has been trying to lose the same 10 pounds for the last 10 years, and they don't quote qualify for obesity, would I be opposed for that individual to speak with their physician about using Ozempic? I would not. So let's say you have

someone start taking ozempic is the plan to wean off of it yes got it yes there's a lot of other things that it does and whether that's brown white adipose tissue or you know ozempic can also be used for those with um gosh alcohol abuse problems there's all different things. Binge eating disorder. I've seen it do enormous things for, again, is it a cure all for everything? Is it all of a sudden getting a huge bad rap? Yeah. But now my question would be, how come it's so easy to prescribe something to make people be less fat but not prescribe something like testosterone which is not FDA approved for women that has to be used off label to support their skeletal muscle mass what do you think of women using testosterone it's amazing for women as they get older like

would you give it to someone like me for example no you're trying to get pregnant and also you're young right you? You're young. Let's get your sleep dialed in. Let's get your nutrition together. Let's get you lifting weights. You're doing all the things. You should have a robust amount of testosterone. But my point of saying that is the way in which we think about these paradigms are wrong. We think about obesity. We talk about, well, I can give a medication to treat fat, but I can't easily give a medication to treat the health of skeletal muscle. There was a period of time where testosterone treatment for men and women was, oh, my gosh, I cannot put fringe. But there has never been a time where treating obesity was fringe.

We're treating the wrong tissue. Wow. I like that perspective on it. I mean, it does have a pretty bad rap, but I think, do you think the wrong people are taking it? I think that that's difficult to say. Yeah. We have 70% of Americans are either overweight or obese. Now, my next question would be, who is going to have the biggest problem with that? If now all of a sudden people are not consuming foods, who do you think is going to have the biggest problem with that? The food industry. Exactly. So is it possible that some of the information that we're hearing and the, quote, hype maybe is coming from somewhere else?

You know, there was this whole thing about how animals were killing the planet, right? The cows. Right. And then if you actually look at the data, it's the majority, especially in the U.S., is all industry. So the greenhouse gas effect, these things, you know, it's a very complex topic. And I'm not an expert in this. But if you look at the EPA and you look at some of the data, the majority of greenhouse gas and the impacts on the environment come from electricity, transportation, industry. Eighty three percent or so. Nine percent is agriculture.

But cows are killing the planet. And then we repeat this over and over again. And then this becomes true just because it's repetitive, but a repetitive nature to a statement just makes it repetitive. It doesn't make it true. Yeah. And there's money behind it have you seen that new no netflix documentary with the twins no i haven't seen it either i will not be watching it but it's funded by beyond me isn't it i i will not i don't get my i don't get my scientific information from anything on netflix i love and love netflix but again these are educated they are entertainment This is not a peer reviewed piece of work. What's wild is things like that. I have friends who were strength training,

eating red meat, doing amazing. I'm thinking of one of our friends specifically who started training with my husband, Greg. He felt so good. he'd been so afraid of red meat for so long and he watched that documentary and came to us the next day and was like I think I'm going to go back to being vegan because he watched this documentary that scared him and I found out it was funded I feel like it's all funded yeah I mean there's a lot of propaganda the The question is why? Why is all of a sudden there's all this propaganda? And that's why it becomes challenging from a health perspective. People can try. Some people will probably do better mitigating any kind of animal based products. Maybe their gut microbiome can make up for X, Y and Z. But again, there are certain fundamental behaviors for the mass majority of people. It's probably a combination of both plant and animal versus only animal and only plant. You know, I don't have, I would say that my view is not extreme, right? But I absolutely do advocate for animal-based products.

Yeah. One thing I forgot to ask you that I selfishly want to know, how many days a week do you recommend strength training? Depends on your program. I train three to four days a week. And I train pretty heavy and intensely. I don't think I could hit. I could not do another day. I just couldn't. But I like hearing you say that because I think there was this idea that people had to strength train five to six times a week. I mean, I think that the more advanced you are, again, it just all depends on what kind of program that you have and how advanced you are and what is the goals of your program. I think, again, are we looking for what is the outcome that you're looking for? Me personally?

I mean, I know your outcome. To be jacked up. No, to be pregnant. So you are not losing body fat, right? So you want to be jacked up. And again, you want to be healthy. I want to have the biggest butt I've ever had. Same! When you get the formula to that,

I'm signing up. Listen, I just think my genetics are not... I'm not a big butt queen me neither but i'm working on it i truly am working on it my quads grow like weeds but my butt she just doesn't want to do anything can i do a rapid fire fan q a for you because the girls had a lot of questions yeah okay sorry i'm asking you a lot here okay thoughts on collagen? Great for skin, hair, potentially joints. I love it. Okay.

I use it 15 grams a day. I'll probably go up to 30. Okay. Incomplete protein doesn't count towards your protein goals. Because it doesn't have all the amino acids. Exactly. Nailed it. I listen to your podcast. Drinking things like Fairlife or ready to drink protein.

Great. Convenient. Slay. drinking things like fair life or ready to drink protein great convenient slow is too much protein bad for your kidneys no we there's multiple meta-analyses you know i've been told that from my lab work i've been told that i eat too much protein that's impressive. I eat a lot of meat. Can muscle be marbled with fat on humans? Yes. Really? Yes. That's one of the things that we see with obesogenic sarcopenia.

That's one of the things that we see with aging individuals. That's one of the things that we think that individuals just show outward signs of obesity. You get fat marbled in just like a cow. Wow. That's Wow. Okay. What is your take on post-workout protein consumption? How soon after? Doesn't matter. It can be within that 24 hour period. I will say as you are older, let's say you have, let's say you're an individual who is older or fighting something. You maybe you're fighting against sarcopenia or you're fighting against a chronic illness and you're eating a lower protein diet, your muscle is primed now to take in these amino acids. I would say whatever, 90 minutes. But again, that's an arbitrary number because the majority of the time it doesn't matter. Okay. Best protein pack snack.

Have you ever had a Paleo Valley beef sticks? I think I've seen them. Oh, Matthew gave me some. They are legitimately, we cannot keep them in our house. My kids pound those guys. Oh my God, that's great. Yeah, meat sticks are awesome. Chomps, Paleo Valley, Maui Nui. Yeah. Meat sticks. Okay, great. Is creatine a good supplement for someone trying to lose fat and build muscle? Creatine is a good supplement for brain function, for muscle. Is it necessarily for fat loss?

No. Do you take it? Not right now. Sal was talking about it with me on MindPath. I mean, it's amazing. He wants to start a creatine supplement company. I was like, please do it. He won't do it.

He was like going on about the margins. I was like, Sal. Okay. Now it's time for the question we ask every guest. I started this podcast because I believe everyone's pursuit of wellness looks different. What does wellness mean to you? Wellness means being globally strong. It's about global strength it's about physical and mental strength and also strength within your family hell yeah i love that

answer where can everyone find you online where can they get the book oh yeah the book forever strong hit the new york times bestseller list instantly the first week it outsold Arnold Schwarzenegger and Atomic Habits. What? It hit Publishers Weekly, USA Today, Wall Street Journal, all of it. Yes. Yep. It was number three on New York Times bestseller list, but it outsold both of the other two titles. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, wherever books are sold. If you want to suffer through the audio book, I just recommend that you listen to it on two speed it was actually my favorite thing to do about the whole book i read my own audiobook oh i'm gonna listen yes but just listen on two speed because they they slow you down do they uh yes they make you slow down you're like is this ever gonna end but and then and then pause but it was amazing you can find me on Instagram at Dr. Gabrielle Lyon.

I have a great podcast, a medical-based podcast. Really kind of just awesome. We have world-leading experts on. On my website, we do have a new community, by the way, a Forever Strong community, which is amazing. So when I did the book launch, we had 7,000 members. And we realized that there was a need for community. So I come on, someone comes on every week, answers questions, and people just

are there to support each other. So that's really cool. People can all find that on my website. All of this is under drgabrielyon.com, Facebook, Twitter, you name it. Amazing. I love what you're doing and you are awesome. And you are awesome. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us on the Pursuit of Wellness podcast. To support this show, please rate and review and share with your loved ones. If you want to be reminded of new episodes, click the subscribe button on your preferred podcast or video player. You can sign up for my newsletter to receive my favorites at marilowelland.com. It will be linked in the show notes. This is a Wellness Out Loud production produced by Drake Peterson, Fiona Attucks, and Kelly Kyle.

This show is edited by Mike Fry and our video is recorded by Luis Vargas. You can also watch the full video of each episode on our YouTube channel at Mari Fitness. Love you, Power Girls and Power Boys. See you next time. The content of this show is for educational and informational purposes only. It is not a substitute for individual medical and mental health advice and does not constitute a provider patient relationship. As always, talk to your doctor or health team.