QAA Podcast - QAnon? In The Big Year 2025? (E337)

Episode Date: August 26, 2025

What is QAnon today, nearly eight years after the first Q drop? In Marc-André-Argentio’s new book QAnon: From Conspiracy Theory to New Religious Movement he argues that QAnon is best understood as a “hyper-real religion.” Even years after the Q drops stopped, QAnon exists as a lived religious practice, where true believers are commissioned to redpill the normies and posting is a rite. The book demonstrates that the movement has gone through three stages of existence: proto-QAnon, canonical-QAnon, and apocryphal-QAnon. Travis and Jake chat with Marc-André about his book and how it builds on other books that cover the movement. Subscribe for $5 a month to get all the premium episodes: https://www.patreon.com/qaa Marc-André Argentino https://www.maargentino.com/ QAnon: From Conspiracy Theory to New Religious Movement https://www.routledge.com/QAnon-From-Conspiracy-Theory-to-New-Religious-Movement/Argentino/p/book/9781032703534 20% Discount Code: 25AFLY2 Editing by Corey Klotz. Theme by Nick Sena. Additional music by Pontus Berghe. Theme Vocals by THEY/LIVE (https://instagram.com/theyylivve / https://sptfy.com/QrDm). Cover Art by Pedro Correa: (https://pedrocorrea.com) https://qaapodcast.com QAA was known as the QAnon Anonymous podcast. /// We’ve launched a new podcast miniseries network: Cursed Media. The very first Cursed Media miniseries is Science in Transition. Science in Transition is an investigation into the intellectual origins of the contemporary right wing backlash against transgender acceptance. Through six deeply-researched episodes, hosts Liv Agar and Spencer Barrows unearth a bizarre coalition of well-meaning clinicians, aristocratic sexologists, militant feminists, right-wing culture warriors, headline-chasing journalists, and conservative politicians. Binge all six episodes of Science In Transition by subscribing through this link. www.cursedmedia.net/ Subscribers to Cursed Media get access to three new podcast series per year, plus every episode of QAA’s existing mini-series (properly organized!) ////

Thank you. If you're hearing this, well done, you found a way to connect to the internet. Welcome to the QAA podcast, episode 337. QAnon in the big year 2025? As always, we are your host, Jake Rockatansky. And Travis Vue. Part of why I found and continued to find Q&N so compelling is that it's intriguingly difficult to define, like a really succinct way.

QAnon has been called a conspiracy theory, an extremist, movement, a larp, an org, a sciap, a cult, and a religion. And the problem was that any one of those labels is, at worst, misleading. And at best, they might be technically accurate, but still fail to entirely describe, like, how the QAnon community operates. Now, this is why I was very excited to read a new book Q&ONON, from conspiracy theory to new religious movement by Mark Andre Argentino. For longtime listeners of the show, I might remember we've had him on a few times back when our episode counts was still in the double digits.

This is like a long time ago, pre-January 6. Also is one of the few Q researchers that we've met, IRL. Yes. Most people we see, we only know through a Zoom or Skype screen, but Mark Andre actually came to the live show when we performed in Canada

and we got to hug. IRL, it was wonderful. We got to hang out behind the scenes. It was great. Yeah. I was having a panic attack too, which is so funny. I don't know if you remember that.

I was like, I wanted to, like, hang out, but I was also having a massive panic attack because I, like, even though I have a theater degree, I, like, decided to get stage fright, like, for the live shows for whatever reason. I don't know. My mind, my mom was playing tricks on me. No, I remember that, but it was still a fun time. It was great to see that. Yeah, yeah, we were still good. I'm not like an annoying panicker. I don't know.

It was subtle, but it was a great time to hang out. Yeah, it was great. So nowadays, Mark Andre works with Public Safety Canada, and what's really amazing about the book is that it goes beyond, like, describing, like, the original formation of Q&Uraibing, like, like, it goes beyond, like, like, like, it was a original formation of Cuba. It like goes deeper and provides this analysis of like how it evolved over the years and on multiple platforms. And I think it provides like the best understanding of the state of Q and on today in 2025, nearly eight years after the first Q drop. And I think this is this is valuable because, man, I like it was really interesting to see the evolution of how people have kind of reacted to me talking about what I do on the podcast. Because for the first, like, three years or so, like, prior to January 6th, the reaction was basically what's QAnon? Like, literally, the average person would have no knowledge.

I'd have to have, like, basic sort of, like, understanding, well, it's like, you know, some online sort of, like, conspiracy theory, cult movement thing. Then after, like, January 6th, all of a sudden, it kind of entered public consciousness in a bigger way. And I would have to, I have to have to explain, it's a Q&ON podcast, but like anti-QAnonon. So just be clear. But then something else happened, it's like starting two years. ago, there was this change in like all, QAnon, is that still going? Is that still a thing? There was this period in which people were like, we're aware of it and then stopped being talked about in the media so much and it kind of like faded from the public consciousness. But I mean,

it's still very much an active thing online in these communities. It's just not covered quite as extensively by the media anymore. And even though the media doesn't necessarily think that there's lots of advancements taking place within the world, the QAnon people believe that. They believe that, you know, some of them, that the storm is humming along quite nicely and, you know, that they're going to be treated any minute to mass execution. So they're still excited about it, even if the media, you know, at large in some ways, has sort of forgotten or moved on. But also, it's become so normalized in terms of how the conspiracy theories from the Q movement are standard talking points in some political spaces that, you know, it's not newsworthy if it's normative. So in a way, they're QAnon movement shifted. You know, the Overton window on conversations, and some conspiracy theories are just normal political speech now.

Well, and California is becoming so melted now. I used to say, oh, we, we, it's a show, it's a podcast about QAnon, but we're anti-QAnon. And I've run into enough people that have looked at me funny after I said that it's anti-Qanon, that now I just say it's a podcast and it's about politics and conspiracy theories. And the answer I usually get is people being like, oh, I love conspiracy theories. Awesome. I'll listen. Sorry, go on, Travis. So, yeah, this book is, I mean, it is quite an effort. I mean, you go into detail about, like, just the kind of the reams and reams of data from, like, social media platforms you go into. Like, it was like about, like, 54 million tweets, 1.7 million Facebook posts, 1.3 million Reddit posts, another 1.3 million telegram posts and 23,000 Instagram posts. So this is, this was an undertaking. So, yeah, I mean, what was that? Like definitely was a passion project to get through all of this stuff. Yeah, man. And I mean, like,

this is not, this wasn't the start of my PhD, right? I switched into Q&N and mid-2018, going into 2019, just before the pandemic. And then it became my entire dissertation. I threw away everything I wrote before that. So it was definitely a grind to start from the beginning. But there was so much data on this, so much information to report on that. It wasn't too difficult in the end to really do academic research. There was not much on the topic at the time, though a good history on what conspiracy theories were and how they impact society. But, you know, the digital way that QAnon emerged, the impact on politics, the large social movements have built. So many unique things that definitely worth the effort. And so much of it is all online. You know, it's so digital

that we really do, you know, if you know where to look, you really do have a, you know, a trail of footprints, you know, leading back, you know, seven years through all of the transformations and the various characters who are coming in and out. I mean, it's why we're still doing this podcast. It's why we even have a podcast is because the depth and different layers beneath this sort of, you know, as Travis always called it, a tent pole conspiracy theory can go so deep. And there's so many spinoffs and segments and breakaway groups that it's just, yeah, it can seem endless and it can seem overwhelming.

And I think that that's, you know, and I'm sure that you also felt that way and thought that, you know, a book was necessary to sort of wrangle in all of the madness in a place where people can actually sort of get their bearings on what this is and where it stands. I mean, it was really an academic book because Mike did an amazing book on Q&ON for popular print. There's other people that we are familiar with that have done great work on this, right? But in the academic space, having something dedicated to Q&N wasn't there yet. So it was great to be able to put something out, but especially transforming years of doctoral research into something in print was quite fun to do. And it was great. It came out just the week that all the

Epstein stuff came to head. So it was a great time to release a book where I was at a point, like, man, my book's coming out. Is it still really relevant? And well, yes, it was. Yeah. I mean, I think this is really great because, yeah, it does, it's going to provide a really a base for the academic world, for the scholarly world, for understanding this phenomenon, which again, And it's shockingly did not really exist, you know, as much of a comprehensive analysis before now. And I think this is a perfect companion to Mike Rothschild's book because that describes like, you know, really the like origins and the movement and its growth and the basic concepts like the cue drops and how the community operates. And then this book really kind of like takes it like what happens like afterwards. What happens like in the years after the cue drop stop and the community still evolves and it still exists online?

You sort of like, you sort of understand how it, how it blooms in sort of like after, I guess, where Mike Rothschild's book ends. No, and Mike's book helped a lot because I didn't have to spend so much time, you know, building the historical introduction of where it came from and all of that. Like, you know, his book was fantastic. And even within the academic space, I know a lot of my peers love this. book and regularly cite him. So it was a great companion, but it's also, I had a lot of fun breaking down the conspiracy to different components and highlighting various harms, various dimensions because, you know, QAnon's not this singular thing. There's so many dimensions and elements to it. So taking it apart in specific ways just as a start was super interesting to do. And I think

still valuable to this day and kind of gets us to understand where we are at this point, but what it could look like in terms of future conspiracy theories impacting the political sphere. Yeah, one of the I guess your methods for analyzing the community is something you call digital ethnography. What is that exactly? So what I mean by digital ethnography is basically doing your ethnographic analysis and observations in the digital space. So instead of, you know, if I wanted to study a indigenous community in their environment to better understand their behaviors and their cultures, you would have to travel, spend time with them, take notes, take your journals, and then report back on it. It's the same principle, but this time it's, I go and observe within the digital ecosystems of QAnon itself and spend time like we've done over the years, reading the Q drops, understanding how they interpret them, poisoning our brains with things like the Q clock and trying to understand some of the madness, but also relating to, you know, get to understand what it means to individuals and understand why they are mobilizing or believing in this. What does it offer them in their lives?

There has to be a reason behind it and it's trying to get through observation what it means. to the believers rather than just applying my external observations. And I try to be as faithful to what a QAnon believer would say or believe and remove as much of my bias as possible when I'm reporting on it. And I think that's one of the things that was driving me is not only a digital orthography, but looking at them from a religious perspective, is understanding what their beliefs are and what it means to them rather than what an outsider will think it looks like weirdly and it's like,

this is just crazy stuff or it's just cultish. But there's actually multiple layers and more depth to it than just a superficial glance. Yeah, I think it has very valuable. Like, try to, like, understand it sort of, like, beyond the kind of, like, outsider, sort of, like, stigmatized perspective. And, man, I just love that term, digital ethnography, because I just called it lurking on forums, but this is a much nicer-sounding name.

That's the academic term for lurking on forums. That's how you make it sound fancy in an academic book. Now you ruin my secret, Travis, but, yeah, it's eight years of lurking and reading and all they're reading their books and they're watching their videos and attention. attending their huge church services on Sundays, and yeah. But it's amazing because I think that that's, it's so easy, you know, if you look at some of the individual Q&OND beliefs, you know, just a couple of the crazier ones, you know, JFK Jr. is still alive and coming back and he's going to run with Trump or the idea that

John McCain, you know, did not die from brain cancer. He was, he was executed and the cancer was a cover. You know, it's really easy to look at people in this belief system and make fun of them. And, you know, we're guilty of that. Like, but it's a podcast, it's entertainment. And sometimes you have to laugh at how crazy some of this stuff is because it makes you feel less sad at where we're sort of collectively heading as a society. But what we always try to do, and I think that the book does a very good job of doing, is exactly like you said. Why? What draws some, what makes QAnon attractive to somebody. And I've experienced that firsthand, you know, when I, we first, the reason we started the show is because I was kind of into QAnon, not from a right wing place, but I was

into all the spy gate stuff. And I was like very interested in this idea that our intelligence agencies, you know, might not play fair if there was a candidate that they really didn't like. And I was, I was, I was fresh off a, you know, a lot of our listeners know this, but I was like, you know, fresh off a very disappointing primary where I was, I was really hoping that, that Sanders would get a, you know, a fairer shake, and it was like pretty disillusioned. I was pretty angry, and my career wasn't really, you know, didn't compare to my peers. I was single. I was kind of lonely and living paycheck to paycheck. And there was something about QAnon that felt like, oh, finally, like the, you know, the people that it's easiest to blame for my own misfortunes,

they're going to be broke or they're going to be struggling or unhappy. And for me, I felt that that was a big part of it. There was this angreness, there was this isolation, there was a general dissatisfaction in our government and politics and transparency. And I'm curious if, you know, over your research, if you found that to be a common theme between people, maybe not, not necessarily your average QAnon believer, but somebody who goes like all in, you know, to the point where maybe they become an influencer themselves or, you know, they join some kind of subgroup. I mean, when you're looking at what you're describing it's not unique right when you have these type of grievances when you have these angers you're looking for a type of answer to justify why you're feeling and the

answers in terms of like you know political outcomes or social and cultural outcomes are not always black and white there are these complex shades of gray but when you're looking at you know a conspiracy theory or even the online influencers providing you know a specific type of framing to your news it's designed in a way to give you the quick answers when, you know, that's what your brain is attracted to. You don't want to have to struggle through the psychological dynamics of questioning yourself or whatever. I think the difference, the difference between what you're describing for your own pathway versus like some who will go further is at some point you were not satisfied with just the quick answers and you kept digging and trying to find more. But there are some who are just going to

be satisfied by getting these very, you know, quick answers that provide them the comfort that they need and they'll stick to it because it becomes familiar. But then you can, you can, could also build community around it. But part of it is like your grievances are going to, and your personal risk factors are going to play a big role in how you are attracted to these things. And I mean, it could have been Q for you, Jake. It could have been, you know, someone coming in to, hey, do you want to come and help me run a Boy Scout troop?

Or do you want to join the Church of Mormons? Or when you have something that will come to you and give you meaning and it resonates with you, that'll provide you that type of comfort when you're at a point of crisis. Yeah, you know, my other choice, this guy had asked me to see if I wanted to be part of a Beastie Boys cover band that performed in Las Vegas. And I said no to that. And so I think that probably would have been, that was kind of my other option. And who knows where I would have ended up had I gone that way? Probably still in Vegas to this day. Oh, boy, I would love to see that Jake. Seriously, by the way. I'm not joking. Alternate universe Jake. Put that in bizarre world.

Yeah. But no, I mean, that's real. And I think I think it's interesting to, you know, when we talk about Q&ON and conspiracy theories to talk about these roadblocks that happened or these off ramps. You know, For me, it was when the QAnon group moved off of Reddit and they went on to this other anonymous sort of clone Reddit platform where they could, you know, they could say what they really wanted to say. And a lot of the posts were anti-Semitic and deeply, deeply offensive to me as a Jewish person. And that was the off-ramp.

I was like, oh, this is actually not. The stuff that I'm interested in is just at the surface. And what's actually beneath this is something that I don't want to be a part of, you know. And I think it was like that for people with J6 to some degree. they said, oh, you know, I have a couple family members who were pro-Trump who, after J-6, they went, oh, no, this is not what we signed up for. And that was an off-ramp. And I think some of the Epstein stuff, Trump calling Epstein a hoax, you know, was potentially an off-ramp for some Q&ONB believers. So, yeah, it's interesting to see what brings you on, what takes you off, what keeps you, what keeps you

there. You talk in the book about how Q&ON really can't be understood outside the context of the COVID-19 pandemic. And it's like, well, this is something we talked about before. But, man, you really drive it home in this book. To illustrate this, you provide a statistic that made my eyes pop. So on Facebook posts, like made between March of 2020, which is like really when the pandemic started to hit the U.S. in a big way. And August of 2020, that time period accounted for 65% of all Q&N posts ever on Facebook. At like this five-month period, I mean, it sounds like people like when the world

started turning upside down. There's this disease that, you know, all of a sudden forced people to socialize less and upended their jobs and their social lives and everything. They turned to, they went online. They tried to make sense of what was going on and they found QAnon. I mean, like how would you, how do you think we should understand the relationship between the start of the pandemic and Q&N? You're absolutely right. Those numbers are even staggering for me looking at it back today. But we have to remember, if we're looking at that period, we had maybe not parts of the U.S., But, you know, we had lockdowns in most of the world. We still had a lot of unknown about what it is and information coming out.

Like, oh, it was spread by blood, spread by water droplets, spread by air. It's not transmissible. It's preventative. We were coming at a period where we don't really know what's going on. Scientific evidence was changing on a weekly basis because people are trying to research this as fast as they could. And some findings are good. Some were not. People are reacting.

So you're creating this very chaotic environment for most of the human population. We've never lived through this type of crisis. were not adapted or able to, you know, deal with these type of impacts. You know, governments closing down borders, limiting access. Where I was in Montreal, you know, we had lockdowns between 8 p.m. and 5 a.m. You weren't able to leave your house. So there was a lot of different restrictions, which A, does push people to go online because what else are you going to do is, you know, spend your time online, try to find friends, connect with people. But also everyone was also speculating and trying to find answers.

And it wasn't only QAnon, but you had so many different individuals, both well-intentioned and ill-intention, that were putting information out as fast as possible to try to get answers. And people were coming together and trying to get comfort. And you really saw the Q&ON influencers who had years of experience before the pandemic, creating a attractive narrative to a locked-in audience and how to bring those people in. So during, like, the biggest crisis that most people have gone through in their lives, those that were useful, like, very successful influence were able to, drag people in in droves. And we kind of saw that early, like, especially with like the

weeded media crowds that were coming in at that time. Like all those influences were very successful at dragging in their audience to this day where they're still considered influences because of that foundation they built, you know, five years ago. Yeah. It's really, yeah, the equation of a 24-hour, you know, media versus a brand new virus that we don't know a ton about. It was the, it was the perfect storm for a disaster because people are, you know, there is a expectation that information will come out quickly. And because of that, I think that the narrative change. And, you know, I think that we all saw that these influencers, you know, especially in the QAnon space, we're taking advantage of that. And that when something would be, you know, one of the

pillars of, you know, if you're a conspiracy theory peddler, is if you catch the media in a lie or you catch your, you know, your enemy political party in a lie, you use that to build a foundation to discredit things that actually are well-sourced and actually are true and real. And so it's a mess. And, I mean, it's not only the Q&O people. We have to remember that there was a fair amount of foreign interference going on at the time. And we saw Q&N influencers latching onto Chinese narratives, which were coming directly from the state spokesperson, and they were amplifying it and making these posts viral,

several of which, you know, were successful campaigns just because QAnon influencers were running with it and community members were linking it to Q drops and Passants and they already had all the architecture to run wild with everything. So their capacity to connect any tidbit of information good or bad to Q drops to justify their prophecies or their conspiracies. It was just a perfect storm for this type of movement. Yeah, in the book, you sort of like talk about like kind of the tricky work of like describing what it is. And in chapter two, you ask like, are we dealing with a new religious movement and how this is like maybe distinct from the more sort of like stigmatizing label of cult. So like what kind of like tipped you towards saying that it is

in fact a new religious movement? A lot of it was trying to understand the behavioral impact that Q&on was having. And it was trying to frame it, you know, using a bit of the work that Michael Barcoun had done on conspiracy theories and looking at the framing of those early American conspiracy theories on human behavior, but the scale was so much more. And what I found interesting was how much ritual was built into Q&on practices, you know, everything from baking the bread and making your threads on Aikun and 4chan. But it's also how it was aligned with this concept of hyper-real religion or hyper-reality. And it's to understand that individuals were framing this in a way that is not necessarily just a cult or conspiracy theory because of the amount

of meaning you were getting through it. You had ideological adherence that was obtained through participation. It wasn't just this, you know, passive consumption of a conspiracy theory. You had to, you know, work your way through it and understand you had, you know, I talk about the three types of practices whether they're, you know, entangled religious practice where there's a high degree of overlap between social action and religion. And we could see that this was a group that was driven by social action. They wanted to mobilize. They wanted to change politics. But they also had, because it was rooted in American culture, a huge tie to evangelicalism. So there was a lot of borrowing from evangelicalism and Christian religions. And we even did one of the episodes on the

Church of QAnon where they were having these services on Sundays online based around the conspiracy theories. But then we also saw how QAnon-Ty on to mainstream popular culture and tying to movies and comic books and, you know, stuff like yoga and crystal and other forms of spirituality. So what we're seeing is this type of religion that is based on the premise that pop culture really shapes and create a reality. And QAnon was not the first one to do this, right? If you want to go something very wild, you could look at the concept of Jediism and why it's

a religion in the UK is because this type of digital movement on the census, people just signed up as putting Jediism as their religion. And they had to be officially recognized because they had over 100,000 people that were recorded for it. But it then became a practice because of this whole popular culture thing. So we could really see how popular culture is embodying the characteristics and roles of faith and religion for this new generation. And it's also important to understand that, you know, if we're looking at those who are within their 20s, 30s, 40s now, they talk less about being religious and more about being spiritual and finding attachments to different types of things. So this is all.

also where there was a good resonance with QAnon, because those who were within the spiritual place, or we're talking about conspiruality, we could really see how that's tying into a lot of the same things that conspiracy theory has, but trying to offer this meaning to those who believe and practice into it. And, you know, some things are not a big leap. If you're doing yoga, there's a lot of esoteric practices that are tied to that. Same thing if you believe in angels or crystals or some of the other type of esoteric things that are quite popular on forums like Instagram. So we could see how that tied in, but it's really that Q&N believers were making meaning in their real lives based on Q drops, how Q drops interpreted movies or historical facts or everything. So it's really

that pop culture element that dictated behaviors. You know, it's really interesting, too, is that if you go and look at these quotes from whoever was posting as Q, there's a ton of religious stuff baked in. I mean, you know, the big quotes are dark to light or dark versus light. God wins. The Great Awakening is a perfect example. You know, I went through, many, many years of Hebrew school when I was a kid. Not to say, you know, I'm not trying to pit one religion against the other, but I did, you know, I grew up, I was raised, you know, Jewish. There was never any talk about any kind of awakening. There was not that, what, that's not part of the thing. That, that seems to me to be unique to evangelicalism or some, some, the

millerites. There's something there that's different that's deeply, deeply baked into the pie crust of QAnon, if you will. It's their apocalyptic language. They were waiting for the apocalypse, right? This great awakening, this, the storm coming is your apocalypse and your great awakening is everyone realizing, oh my God, this storm came, we need to change, we need to be better. This is like that future golden age that you're promised in these type of religious beliefs

and practices. They're barring that from a lot of the evangelical movements that a lot of these influences are from. They were using what they're familiar with. This didn't come out of nowhere. These individuals grew up within these communities. and they are using what they are familiar with and adapting it to either their new beliefs

or in some Q-influencer places, their grift. We were just saying the other day we did a Brad Abraham's and I did an episode about this impending alien invasion in November that people are getting pretty excited about. And we found this guy online who goes by Cab and he is an end-time prophecy guy, like a Christian end-times rapture guy, but he's also a Q-Anon-A-Lan alien guy.

And, you know, what's really interesting is that the alien, like the extraterrestrial apocalypse, we found is compatible with the religious apocalypse. You would think that those two don't go together, but these guys will point to, you know, book of revelations or other passages in the Bible and say, look, they're telling us that they're extraterrestrials. And so the way that it's now combined in the soup online, and this guy's got, oh my God, hundreds of thousands of followers on X. And I'm sure, one actually kind of off-the-cuff question that I've got.

got for you is, have you noticed that since Elon has taken over Twitter, that the conspiracy community is boosted much higher than it was beforehand? Because that, to me, anecdotally, seems very true. I mean, I don't know if it's the conspiracy theory community because I've been on a different part of X for my current research. Sure. So what I did notice is Grock really pushing out a lot of the Q&on, tropes, narratives. I mean, I think it was this week. I don't know if it was Travis or posted it maybe or but it was the GROC actually just putting where we go one, where we go all at the

end of the post after someone asked if Q is real. So we could see it. So if that's what it's saying. I didn't see that. We know that it's pulling that from some type of Twitter user base. But X in and of itself has just become a platform where everything is permissible. So why would you not go there if you're

a QAnon influencer? Because you know you're not going to be taken down anymore. You have free reign to push whatever conspiracy you want, your political audience that you want to have as a user base is there. So for them, it's the perfect place to go because you don't need to go to a half-baked gab or something else. You have a kind of functional platform, kind of. Yeah, a premium, a premium platform. And you took it, you know, in your mind, you took it from the libs, which makes it all that much better. Well, exactly, because you stole it from all the,

you scared up all the journalists, the academics, the liberal politicians, everyone. So for them, it's also a victory ground for them to do their deeds on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I like, yeah, I really like this hyper-real religion and sort of new religious movement framework because I think it like, uh, I think helps her understand the sort of like the practices and why, um, why these Q&O followers were so devoted to something that, uh, that from the outside seems so deranged. You know, I mean, it's like, it's almost like this, uh, they used posting as a kind of like religious sacrament. You know, they felt like they were commissioned to red pill the normies and they have to do this. And this is sort of a practice that they do like.

every day, which is just a lot for religious practice. Like if a Catholic, you know, went to mass every single day, I think even most Catholics be like, oh, that's a little much. You don't have to go every single day. But these QAnon followers, they take part in this essentially religious practice of posting for red-pilling the Normies just daily. And that hasn't just served the purpose of adding more QAnon followers or like, you know, or spreading the message of QAnon, it also reinforces this devotion of the practitioner.

And I mean, like, Q&ON participation from a religious perspective is very similar to militant religious individuals. Like, the average Catholic will not go, well, is just an Easter and Christmas type of Christian. So, you know, your ease and seas, you might have people who are more practicing will go regularly on a Sunday. But the militant ones, those who are committed, will be going every day. And it's the same thing you see with them. You know, if we think about their whole concept, we're digital soldiers in a digital war, you see that with melanarian perspectives where you are a Christian soldier in a war for. the soul of the earth. And you're seeing that mandate that they believe they're given is what's really helping them dictate their behavior, which is why they're spending all of this time. They have

no concerns about the relationships that they're losing because for them, whatever the end promises, that golden age at their promise is going to be worth all the sacrifice that they have. The sad part is that that end is never coming and what they've lost our friends and families and employment and whatever else they might have lost along the way. So you might have built a new community, but in the long run, it is going to be a costly practice for those who are still holding on to this years after it was initially created. And you provide this sort of like more sort of like granular framework of understanding Q&ONN as a lived religion.

You break it up into like proto-QAnon, canonical Q&N, and apocryphal QAnon. So I thought this was very useful for sort of understanding. So I mean, like, so let's start with like what exactly, how would you define the proto-Qanon? So the way that I was looking at this is thinking about how QAnon changed over time, right? And it's the same way that religion evolves. And the proto-Qunon, or I borrowed basically from proto-religions, is what is the groundwork, the stepping stones that were laying to permit Q&N to flourish, right? Because even though this seemingly came out of nowhere for most individuals, if you are an observer of the edge sphere, at least like the three of us weirdos are, You saw that this type of stuff was not new, right?

We started with not even Pizza Gate being the first one, but really thinking about the type of larping you have online with people like FBI and on and all of the other type of individuals that just appeared and tried to be these type of online influencers. But they were playing a role as well. That type of pretend being an agent and leaking secrets. And there was an element of play that was part of this. And it was part of like this image board culture that could be problematic, but in and of itself was not a terrible thing.

And we had some going back historically, like to the early 3,000s of the internet where, you know, we're pretending to be time travelers and talking about the future. And so we have all of these possibilities that laid the ground. But I thought it was important to realize that, you know, there is the the Pizza Gate conspiracy theory, which was crucial to setting this up because we wouldn't really get there without the success of Pizza Gate and the leftovers of it and especially the stuff around. abuse that would have led to the current iteration of QAnon. Then because they were also on 4chan, this culture of LARPing was part of the QAnon space, right? A lot of the people who were there from the beginning were familiar with this type of role playing that occurs in these spaces. And we could see that they borrowed a lot of that from the early individuals who created Q to even those who were participating. It was not odd for early members of QAnon to have and participate

within these type of conversations. And the last one is the work that Q origins did on the lost Q drops, which predate actually the first Q drop that's been collected by the aggregators. So we could see that even from the core Qon community, there were attempts early on to create the Q movement that have now been collected and demonstrated that this is not something that was started specifically in October 2017, but that there were attempts earlier on to try to get this going, and it's rooted in a bunch of other things.

And I think that's important to understand to get to, you know, the main point of the QAnon space, which is what I call the canonical period. And this is the easiest one to describe. This is everything that is covered by the QNon aggregators and considered official Q posts by the community. So between October 27, 2017 to December 8th, 2020, I don't include the garbage fake Q post that came out while you were trying. The gym posting? Yeah, we don't consider the gym posting as Q drops and not even the Q&N people believed. Yeah, even they don't, yeah. Even they didn't buy it.

So, you know, you weren't doing a pretty good job at the Q&N believers were like, yeah, this is bullshit. Wait, I've got an interesting question. So like, because role play has been part at least of popular culture forever. Look, I'm a guy that's got three Ghostbusters proton packs in my basement. You were talking about Star Wars, massive, massive community of people. Some are so into it. they are like actual professional lightsaber duelers and we'll go

to lightsaber duel competitions. I watch videos of these guys and they're fucking incredible guys and girls and so I guess we do kind of have a history of doing this but also but they're healthy ways you know that role play and larping have been embedded in the culture

and ways for people who you know really identify with a with a particular intellectual property or a book or whatever whatever it is you know that they can kind of like live that fantasy and it's it's yeah you know I often think about were there more dangerous ones preceding cue or ones that were just as dangerous or just as popular and I don't know if you came across any that flag you know that you flagged as like oh well this is this is really interesting

and and could have potentially set the you know set the stage for something like cue to really take off I don't know if there was anything that was really more dangerous and I don't think Q'd on itself was dangerous because even like we think 2018 the movement was dying up until the pandemic hit and that gave them a big boost right it's the only real reason they were alive because after the Christchurch attack you know 8chan was taken down 4chan was under fire red it was taking down stuff so there's a lot of content removal so even early on like Q was interesting but its reach was still quite limited for a long time yeah but a lot of the stuff like I was super interested in like online larping and communities from the get going I remember like early on

on when I was getting, when I was onto, my God, I'd be old now, one of the first computers I was ever playing on. I remember reading about, you know, John Titter, like time traveler is zero, the guy who was saying, like, I traveled back from 2036. I was like, oh, my God, this year 2000, you have a time traveler from 2036, you know, even though I knew in the back of my mind, like, this wasn't something real. It's cool to play and be part of that and try to build this community around talking to this individual and getting these type of responses back. So it is this type of plan. It's, you know, if you're a gamer, you've been, these type of place, if you played an RPG, if you played dungeon and dragons, you've played

Balders game. Right, right, right. So, like, it is, it is healthy in a way. I think the risk is when the larping becomes attached to either an extreme movement or either is tied to individuals with extreme goals and combining that with personal grievances and risk factors, then you could go extreme. I mean, if we think about, like, the reptilian conspiracy theories, we do have that guy in Tennessee who blew up his RV, you know, we have the guy in Kansas.

California who killed his two kids in Mexico because he thought they had reptilian blood. In it of itself, like, yes, the reptilian conspiracy theory is extremely anti-Semitic, but there's no real indications of, oh, you need to mobilize and do that type of stuff. The push factor really comes within the individuals who are participating in it. But it's, you know, now when we look at these type of conspiracy theories on the edge sphere, it's more like, what does it take for this to become dangerous or how it could be dangerous rather than having that old joy of being like, oh, this could be fun to participate in? So I think now we're just more aware of the risk, but also how we're interconnected to these type of spaces along to how everything just becomes political so quickly.

I think those risk factors within these things are just higher at the moment. It's really interesting that you bring up John Tider because this is a LARP. We did one of our very, one of the first episodes I ever did for the pot, I think, was like on Titer. And, you know, what was interesting about it is that he included all of these pictures or they, you know, whoever was posting, there was pictures, there was manuals, there was content. you know, to really sift through. And this was kind of like, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was basically like a list serve conspiracy or an email list, you know?

And it's like, you go, and then I think about, I think about going back to like Prodigy and AOL, you know, when we first got access to that in my house, you better believe I was going into chat rooms and like pretending to be somebody else, anybody else. Because an 11-year-old kid in the, you know, in the suburbs of Chicago, like, wasn't that interesting to me? And, you know, it just sort of brings up this really interesting idea that as long as we've had this digital place where we can kind of start over and reinvent ourselves in whatever way possible, people have been doing this.

Maybe they're too afraid to go to the Renfair. They think it's stupid. They don't want to dress up. They don't whatever. But like online, all you have to do is open a web browser. The bar to entry is pretty low. It is. And I mean, like, this is also why we're still seeing these things that continue today.

like, you know, when I'm talking about the third category of like a prokofokunon, there was a question at the time when Q stopped posting, is this the end of the movement? I remember chatting with you guys about this, like, what is it going to happen? You know, January 6th happened, Q is gone, Trump is out of the White House, you know, the Democrats are coming in. The general sense should have been like, well, this is going to pitter out. But the reality is, was they took all of the opportunities in the chaos after J6 and used that as a form to continue and adapt the play. And we could really see that these are individuals. who are quite proficient at LARPING online,

they were able to adapt to this new environment. And they're also able to overcome the failure of prophecy over and over again. Even though everything failed, oh, my God, everything's going on. It's like, oh, no, it's, okay, we don't have all the information. We could move on. And these new figures were coming in. And a lot of these new figures that came in early on are gone. You know, we could see that they're no longer really playing a role.

They're not as important. But they acted as this bridging between that chaotic period to where we are today and their original influencers are still around and then they just get to keep continuing pace. So you had new people trying to, you know, take on advantage of this stuff, but it made the capacity for the influencers to take the time and adapt

while the really wild people who came on board on like, you know, in 2021, we're able to go. Some of them are still around, though. I mean, negative 48, tragically passed away in a motorcycle accident, but his followers are still active and still gathering on a regular basis. Romana Doolo and Canada is still around.

She might be, less directly linked to QAnon, but we really see more of that conspiracy theory overlapping with the pseudo-law movement in Canada and how she's still continuing strong. And I mean, the influence is still there. It might not be at the height it was back in 2022, 2022, 2023, but we could really see that that influence is still there. We have to think, like, you know, all the court cases that were happening after January 6 were a extremely important platform for those who were tied to the Q-sphere to keep having a voice, keep having relevance. And the fact that that that, dragged on for four years means that you had to be relevant for that time. If they didn't get the

type of attention they did, it might have peered out. But because of how successful they are in this digital space, we saw them continue having success. Well, and, I mean, what do you think about this? There's now real oppression. You do have QAnon believers and influencers who are facing legal consequences. They're in jail for years. Some of them, the stakes are now high, you know, And I think, you know, which brings up some of the stuff that's happening currently with Trump ordering the military to seize control of DC and deputizing, you know, government officials as law enforcement agents. And like, you know, my biggest fear always when we started this is that they would make QAnon real, that the narrative of QAnon would give them a guide of what to do because they don't know what to do. And so the storm will actually happen, not because it's been planned for 30 years, but because it's what the base wants, because it's what QAnon promised them and we're stuck in this fucking bizarre cycle, that now there is real, now there is a real, you know, I doubt Hillary Clinton is going to be dragged out of her home, but the fact exists that there is, you know, government law enforcement agency descending on D.C. You know, Trump has taken over. I mean, I can't imagine that people who are still deep in the, the rabbit hole on QAnon aren't going to see this as the beginning of the storm.

What are your thoughts about that? I mean, the type of crisis we're seeing right now just fits in this type of millennial and apocalyptic narrative that Q&ON has founded on. The big risk for Q&N was always this concept that they're digital soldiers in a digital war, but we saw that the digital was not enough, right? J6 is a clear example that Q&N influencers can mobilize. I had how many cases that of Q&N individuals that were arrested over the years, 200-something then now. Did I hit my 297, I think? So, you know, we have several hundred people getting arrested.

So we know that there's a risk for them to mobilize to criminality. But I do think what's interesting is the pushback, the Qaeda movement has done against the current administration. And the Epstein files, like you mentioned, were that turning point where the child abuse narrative within Q&ON is central to everything above and beyond everything else. And that is one of the real motivating factors for people because they do believe they're doing good because they are saving children. That's their main idea. That's kind of one of the justifications they have on top of I'm going to save America. So when you're taking away this

Epstein thing where it was everyone's like we're going to release the files, everyone's going to know. And we saw QAnon influencers talking about yeah, you know, 10 days after Trump is in, he's going to release the Epstein files and we're going to be vindicated. When he started pulling back on that, we really saw, you know, when Jay Tansley basically turned around being like, you know, Qon shaman's

like, I don't support Trump anymore. This is all a scam. When you lose his support for the guy who did go to jail for his beliefs, like you could really see that he's losing a core of the audience. So that little shift is created some tensions, but even with those who are in office who have or had, we'll say maybe some of the had Qadon beliefs in the past, we could see that even those individuals are pulling back from the administration because of this. So this is something that was so central to them that if you navigate away

from some of these things, I think it's going to be problematic. The other issue too, I think that's important to remember is that QAnon is not just a white-only movement. So for them is that they are vulnerable to any type of, you know, risk factors, grievances are targeting that will look at individuals based on their race or religious beliefs or, you know, what they're standing are in society. So for them, because you have this wide-made bag, they are less likely to be going alongside specific, you know, legislative or law enforcement choices that are happening right now because they are at risk. And you've seen some Q&ON influence or Q&O members come out being like, hey, you know, my cousin, my wife, my brother, my sister are being detained. They've been deported.

You know, we've been here forever. I've been fighting this war alongside Q& Trump for years. Why am I being targeted? So in terms like that type of shift will impact some of the individuals, some of the members of this community in a way that will want to turn them around. And it's this difficult space where I think it's less about the Q&N base, but more about those who hold to conspiratorial beliefs and practices, that are going to be coming in and wanting to accept these type of changes

because they do see this chaotic type of belief and environment as something that will be beneficial. to what they perceive as their own overall goals. And I think that's where the risk is going to come. But as a wider thing in itself, I think Qadon is kind of split between being supportive and being kind of at risk of being a victim of what is going on. Because it doesn't really matter what you say online when you're bound in the streets or in the real world

and to a certain extent when it comes to these things. Yeah, because they're like not the proud boys. They're not the Groypers. They're not like armed up. I mean, maybe they are. But, you know, as we've said for years talking about it, You know, the whole, one of the most attractive things about Q&N is grab your popcorn. You're watching a movie.

You don't have to do anything. You know, you don't have to do anything. You just get to watch and enjoy and tell all of your fucking bitch family members that, like, you were right all along. And they're going to come to you, hat and hand, begging for forgiveness and asking which, you know, YouTube videos they need to watch to get caught up to speed. I mean, the chaos is beneficial to them. And you're right. Like, you know, it's popcorn day. They're just going to be looking at it.

or we're over the target, it's all going well. So all of these things kind of fit into this environment. And in a way that's almost, and I'm going to be very light on the almost, but it could be a protective factor for some people who are just happy to sit and watch all the chaos that they were promised a long time ago. Again, it's going to depend on what your personal situation is.

Some of them might not be happy with this, but there's also a lot more pull and push factors that are more impactful to other movements within this space than for QAnon believers. But also I think that some of the kind of cumulative levers might just leave the Q&L movement and go latch on to something else. What they latch on to will be significant and determining what might happen with these individuals in the future. But, you know, we saw a bunch of them get arrested on J6 get pardoned. So all of a

sudden there's like, well, if we got pardoned, what is the real risk if I want to do something again of this sort? So in terms of like some of those things, some of them are like, I don't want to go back to jail. I'm done with this. They learned their lessons. There's a fair amount of stories coming out that way. But you will have those who will be like, hey, you know, Jake Chansley came out and he was like, I was vindicated, you know, maybe less now that the Epstein files didn't come out, but for him, it was like, yeah, this was worth the reward was worth the risk for me. Yeah, like the sort of the, the situation that's really incompatible, I think, with like general QAnon belief is like peace and unity and stable, strong democratic institutions.

Like, like that, that kind of situation, like, does not make sense in their worldview when they are just on the edge of their seat expecting, uh, violent, massive change. to the political order, like the chaos and, like, the confusion and, like, you know, the decaying democratic norms is, like, perfectly, not only compatible, it's like, is what they're expecting. It's what sort of, like, is causing them to think that, you know, what they're hoping to happen is an inching ever closer. And, I mean, like, I think it's also important to remember that, you know, this is not only a U.S.-based situation.

The Germans, for example, have had a huge issue with the Reichbergh movement. A lot of them have been arrested, wanting to overthrow the government. So I think, like, what we could really see with the Q&O movement is this adaptation to their political and sociological environment where they are going to latch on to groups that might be more attractive to what they want to do based on, you know, some of the members. But I don't think we have the influencers in the U.S. context or Canadian one that are interested at the moment are willing to want to move offline and take the risk to want to mobilize or do violence. I think they're quite comfortable in their grift and having their, you know, dollar redoes come in from their platforms and their followers and their YouTube's because they know that the consequences could be prison time, could be arrest even in this current situation. So for them, being able to rake in the dollars during a period of quiet and comfort is

preferable than taking any types of risks. But again, if this movement is still around, probably will be in the next three years, what will happen then if there is a change in government or what happens if there is, you know, sociopolitical escalations, are they going to keep the status quo and celebrate? Are they going to want to mobilize? There's a lot of unknowns because you still have a group of individuals who are in a way primed to act either into the digital space or in real life as a large social mobilizing movement. So there's still that question in terms of if you have the right influencers that do get upset that call upon their followership to do something, we might see that again. But it will take this, you know, organizing factor of bringing multiple people to. together like we saw on J6, I think, before we would have her get to that type of point

again. So are we going to have the type of people that are going to be in key roles to want to organize and coordinate this versus, you know, a couple of randos on YouTube and Telegram and Gavin X wanting to move their followers offline whose followers are just happy also to be online these days. I just hope. I just hope he survives. You know, the guy's not a healthy, he's not a super healthy guy. He drinks a lot of Coke. He eats a lot of McDonald's. He's getting up there. I just, I pray he makes it because if he doesn't, for whatever reason, he'll live forever, if you know what I mean. They'll live forever.

It'll become a myth. It'll become legend. It'll become a hundred more conspiracy theories will spawn of what really happened. Who really did? It will never, ever, even if it's like on the toilet, you know, Bob Marley style, 3 a.m. It's clear that, you know, the body just gave out. Even if it's that with all the evidence, it'll never be that. It'll be an assassination.

It'll be this. It will never, ever, ever die. That's like my biggest thing. And I always said, you know, when people were really worried about, you know, the second term of Trump, I said, you know, the one good thing about it is that he'll have two. I mean, you know, provided he doesn't alter the constitution or perform some kind of coup, which I wouldn't say is entirely out of the realm of possibility. But I also would say it's not likely. You know, like two terms and done, that's it. He can never be part of that conversation again.

And I think on some level, I don't know, maybe some of the mythology dies down. I don't know, Mark Andre, you would know better than me. What do you think? Like, do you think that if Trump serves out this second term, you know, without incident? And we as a nation also survive, you know, survive it to a certain degree, do you think things can begin to heal? Or are we kind of be stuck with kind of these conspiracy forward candidates because that's what excites people. and that's kind of what politics is now for lack of a better, you know, for lack of a better term. I mean, it's a question that does not have enough information to answer, but it's an important one, right?

Because are we seeing a permanent cultural shift and what is the status? Like, what is the Overton window for normal political behavior? And you could kind of see hints of that, if you look at like global elections and global political debates, how there are beings like some leaders, some nations, starting to emulate this type of more pop culture, performative type of politics rather than the more traditional, you know, policy-led, you know, serving the constituents and the citizens type of debate. But it makes sense because if you are someone who is watching the news and the media, you're going to want something that entertainer.

Very few people are pundits are interested in watching four-hour debates of people debating policy and stuff. They want the type of action. They want this type of, you know, rude and, you know, obscene type of political behavior that brings in the views, and we could see that's reflected in the type of entertainment that they watch. We'll see that the type of podcast they like or the type of YouTube videos they like. I think the big thing, though, is when I write about this in the book, is that Trump plays a very important role within the Q-Naw movement.

If Q was the Oracle that's sharing secret knowledge necessary for decoding the environment they're in, Trump is their messianic figure, right? He's the one that's going to bring them salvation. And this is the movement's closest form of leadership, because it is decentralized. you have influencers, but in a way, Q's, cue drops, and Trump serve as this messianic figure. And that's what is going to impact how they move forward. And especially it's part of the role why they have such longevity. Because even though he was not in power after 2021, he was still relevant in the media.

You saw him more in the press, in the news stories, in the reels than most Democratic candidates for the last four years. What does that mean? You get all the attention. You get the limelight. You may lose political power. power, but you still retain the cultural power. And this is a political environment that we're seeing where pop culture, cultural elements play more an important role in shifting and deciding how people will vote than actual impact of, you know, the legislative behaviors. And again, the charismatic leader is

important with this. Whether you want to say he's charismatic or not, he definitely has a vibe that fits the taste of a lot of people. So we could really see that that type of leadership is attracted to people. People are, when you talk about interviews, oh, he doesn't take no shit, he says what he wants to do, he's not influenced by others. So they're seeing this type of persona that is something that's powerful

and willing, and it does fit the role that Q gave Trump within the Q-Drops. But what they're not seeing is from, if you look at it from a political perspective, then it's someone who doesn't take advice, it's someone who doesn't read briefs, it's someone who make decisions on a whim. So if you take that, you know, you take Trump out and you put, you know,

any Democratic candidate or even probably any former reprolican president, and you'd put them in a situation where they're like, oh, well, they never read the briefs, they do that what they want. Like, that wouldn't have flown, if you'd look at, like, past political situation. So we are seeing this type of change

because of the charismatic rule that he's playing, but within the Q space, it's even more than that. For them, he's the salvation, he's the savior. And that's important. And so in terms of what it means after the fact, it's going to be hard to tell, because what type of attention will there be in the media,

what type of platform will we have to influence and get the type of views that he has from this audience. Yeah, he's just going to do like Trump TV plus Q. What's stopping him from? You know, just once he's out of office going, I am QAnon. It's all real and it's all still happening. And here's my channel.

Subscribe to it if you want updates on the storm. Like and subscribe. It's not impossible. And there's so many other things that he could do after that could gain these views. But again, it's business oriented. It's, he knows how to get people's attention. Now, before I let you go, I want to get your reaction to a recently, Tucker Carlson was talking about Q&N on his show.

And I mean, you know, he's obviously a massive pundit. So I think it's a good sort of like barometer about like how Q&N is being received in like, I guess that more mainstream kind of like conservative right kind of space. So here's the clip. Let me share my screen here. QAnon. Yeah, QAnon. What was QAnon? I don't know.

I don't either. I avoid, you know, I'd be listening to something and it would have useful information. and all of a sudden then it would show the whole and here's Trump and his generals are going to save the world. No, I agree. But the interesting, I never do anything about Qaeda. I never paid any attention at all. I have a good friend who I really admire

as much smarter than I am, who because he is smarter than I am, took like a year to look into Qadon. What do you get? I don't fully understand it, but here's what I understand is that some of the predictions of Qadon came true. I mean, it's a sophisticated thing. It's not just

Oh, I think it's a bunch of ex-spooks. for sure. It's not a bunch of college kids on 4chan or whatever they claim it was. These are guys who are probably pissed at the system went bad. The point of it and it's unclear, you know, who's behind it, I have some theories, but

people I know actually, but I don't know if they're true. But what I, what is obvious to me is that it was, it's a control mechanism. Trying to siphon off some of that energy and move it in a less, siphing off the energy. That's exactly right. Less dangerous direction.

I mean, I thought this was a kind of a startling take from Tucker, again, not a fringe figure, because he's validating essentially with sort of the core myth of the origin of QAnon, which is that it's like, oh, he says like ex-spooks, people he may know even. This is like, this is the lines with the Q&N belief that, well, it really was high level military intelligence making these drops. And it wasn't, it wasn't sort of like a slap dash kind of grift. But at the same time, he also kind of like hedges and it says that it's like siphoning off. energy and this is a man this is something i see a love like like right wing groipers saying about qanon that it was they they compare it to the um the bolshevik operation trust that was like trying to uh capture and trick people who are still sort of loyal to uh the czarist order uh and there was like some sort of op to sort of like trap people who might otherwise be sympathetic to uh the right

wing cause but it's like man it's like what do you what do you make of that that take from Tucker here. I mean, this throws me back to like 2017, 2018 Q&On early days when you're talking about the ex-spooks, like, you know, the white hats working with Trump. This is, you know, it's super interesting to see a push there, but you could also see the type of doubts and mockery he's had about the movement over the years because he's still putting this type of negative spin on it and Jordan Sater could have a whatever he wants to say about Tucker's take. But, you know, we could really see that he's very much more against what it's really saying. So he knows what he's doing. You could see how he's tailoring his answers to this type of audience to give them this type of hope

and meaning, but he's trying to shift it away from the conspiracy space and link it more towards an actual political machination that's happening. And I know that's the core of, you know, the conspiracy theory, but for Q believers, it's gotten a little bit more far-fetched and into the clouds in a way of how they see this. He's bringing it right back down to this type of political current environment where we're seeing more interest on these type of spaces. So we could see that he's trying to bring it back to what's happening on the ground. But also, well, what's Tucker trying to do with this? Obviously, get views, get likes. And he knows that QAnon crowds are going to post this, and then he's going to get a bunch of views. So he also knows how to antagonize this space just enough

to get the revenue he needs on his site. But the impact of this is, again, you're reviving these old debates. You're bringing these type of questions. You're giving it a more realistic meaning than some of the stuff that we're seeing right now. And this is not about UFOs. This is not about men living on the ground. This is about what's happening, you know, in his country right now and what they're going to do about it. So it's, you know, he's a smart man. I don't like him. But he knows what he's doing in terms of this entertainment, right? He really knows how to grab that audience, bring them in and keep a hold of them. So I wouldn't be surprised if Tucker does a couple more of these in the next little while just to keep the momentum going because it does look like

he's gotten a fair amount of use from this little bit. One last question before we let you go. So, I mean, you did a really interesting analysis of, like, all the Bible quotes that were shared by Q and on followers. And, of course, Christianity is often very, very important to the movement. But you identified one Bible quote in particular that were shared more than any other. And it was Ephesians 610 through 18. And let's let's let me have Jake read this one. Finally, be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power.

Put on the full armor of God so that you can take your stand against the devil's schemes for our struggle is not against flesh and blood but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. Therefore, put on the full armor of God so that when the day of evil comes

you may be able to stand your ground. And after you have done everything to stand, Stand firm, then, with the belt of truth buckled around your waist, with the breastplate of righteousness in place, and with your feet fitted with the readiness that comes from the gospel of peace. In addition to all this, take up the shield of faith, with which you can extinguish all the flaming arrows of the evil one. Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit, which is the word of God. Jake, I just want to say that if you are around when I die, please be there to read at my funeral. I would like you to do...

You got it. Thank you. That was fantastic. You got it. Absolutely. I'm here. I mean, this biblical passage is, like, you guys know, I'm a religion scholar by training. Before I did engineering, computer science, I was a theologian.

So when all the Bible stuff was coming out of Q, that's what brought me initially to be interested in QAnon, right? It's this religious element. That's interesting. I didn't know that. yeah, I'm a... Oh, he's a, he knows what's going on. Yeah, I used to translate ancient texts from like Coptic and Coyne Greek into normal language to see what it means putting in cultural context.

So for me, this was like perfect, but it's like, you know, we have to think this was put in cue drops during the pandemic, right? So this apocalyptic mindset you need to put on the armor of God, you need to protect yourself. That is something that's very closely linked to, you know, the conspiracies they had about either ID 2020 5G, event 201, the mark of the beast, and we can't forget people like praying, medic, we're running all over this, right? So like, you know, this is a familiar Bible verse for a huge American evangelical population normally. So when you're putting this in a cue drop,

it's super relevant. So the Bible becomes this type of lens to interpret who is good and who is evil. And, you know, this in-group, I grew dynamic is important for these type of extreme groups that might mobilize the violence. So when you're adapting language of spirit, warfare, and it really changes how you perceive this. And, you know, spiritual warfare for your listeners is this idea of a dualistic struggle between good and evil, and that there exists across at least evangelical Christianity, but specifically in Pentecostal and charismatic circles. They believe that there is a literal, real world happening right now on the ground conflict where you have to use your faith and your practice to change the world. And sometimes that might mean you have to come in there.

For some, that might be, you know, I am going to run a Christian business for Christians. I'm going to make my community safer for others is I am going to go and fight and target all those that are perceived as demons. So when you're putting in the context of Q drops, you know, their regular mention of the armor of God, but also, you know, mentioning of like Thessalonians and Psalm 46 and Matthew Sick. Like, you're framing this in this apocalyptic conflict. It fits with the digital warfare and narrative that you're a digital soldier. again, reinforcing that we are at war, you need to fight, you need to defend what you believe in. And that's really what pragmatic was doing. He was really running with this.

And we could see how, like, he had videos that were over 300,000 views talking about the spiritual warfare that QBel believers were going through. So we could really see how this religious passage turned into a metaphor for daily actions. It was binding scripture, conspiracy, and politics into one single narrative that not only resonated with a base in Europe, Australia, Canada, and the US, but also specifically with the Qadon community in order to justify what they were doing. So when you're talking about, oh, we need to, you know, people were pushing back, oh, I don't want to kill people. I don't want to harm people. Like, this is against my beliefs. It's a lot different when they have the mark of the beast, when they're demonic, when they're the reason the apocalypse is happening now.

So this type of narrative was extremely influential. And this type of like, you know, physical and spiritual battle. We saw it used also by several of the candidates that were also evangelical and believed in Q&on. So you're taking it away from not only a Q-drop, but you're seeing elected officials then resonate this. You're seeing people in the media, influencers, mentioned this. So you're giving also this, you know, they don't have to, like, sacrifice yourself and you have to defend yourself from Ball and all the other Jewish demons that are mentioned in the Old Testament, but you have to go like, we will win. God is in control. Q is in control, pages aren't control.

You're seeing this overlap all the time where God, Q, Trump, were all put in this Trinity of power that is there to protect them. So whatever, you know, Q did that was counter moral or illegal or said that was illegal, you put in this framework, well, like, in the end, it's for the greater good of God. It's for the greater good of, you know, what we need for our society to build this golden age that is, could be secular for some Q believers, but was most, for most of them, a heavenly objective that they're trying to achieve. So for them, the apocalypse is here, you need to act.

You are already primed as a Christian believer to understand what that means. Yeah, fascinating stuff. Man, thank you so much, Mark Andre, for coming on. Again, that book is QAnon from Conspiracy Theory to New Religious Movement. We'll put a link in the show notes. Man, it's been great. I hope we can. It won't be another five years before we get together, Mark Andre.

Hope not. I mean, hopefully the new stuff I'm working on might scare some of your followers. but, you know, I think the stuff I'm doing now related to child safety online and the stuff that's going there is extremely relevant. And I'll also give you and Jake a discount code that I have. You could put in your notes for your followers if they want to get the book 20% off. Great. Oh, awesome. Thank you. Well, we love to be scared.

And this is where we live now. We live in a, you know, in a house of fear. So keep slinging it, Mark Andre. Thank you so much for all of your work and being such a, you know, just a wonderful colleague over these many, many years. is where we've been in the swamps together studying this crazy stuff. And is there anything else you'd like to plug before we let you go? I will plug my website. This is where I still post on a kind of regular basis on my current research for or public scholarship.

So you could find me at MAA Argentino.com. I'll give you the link to post also in your notes there, Travis. But that's it. And again, thanks to both of you, you guys have been great to work with over the years. And like, you know, the book wouldn't have happened if it wasn't initially coming across some of the early work the Q&O Anonymous podcast did. Like, you guys were helping shed light on this and it acted as a motivator for me to do more

the academic work and go more in depth in what you were describing in your own episodes. You heard it here first, folks, dark to light. Thanks for listening to another episode of the QAA podcast. You can go to patreon.com slash QAA and subscribe for $5 a month to get a whole second episode every single week

plus access to our entire archive of premium episodes. We've also got a website that's qa-a-a-a-podcast.com. And if you like what we're doing, we have recently launched a media network. And our first show is now bingeable, all six episodes. It's called Science in Transition, and that is helmed by Liv Agar and Spencer Barrows. And you can find that on cursedmedia.net.

So if you're interested in that and more miniseries coming this year and beyond, go check out cursedmedia.net. It's good stuff. I think you'll enjoy it. Until then, listener, may the Deep Dish bless you and keep you. We have auto-keyed content based on your preferences. There's no plan. I don't know what, you know, QAnon, Q, whatever the hell it is.

Wake up. It's a damn good, it's a damn good sci-op. That's what it is. I hate to break it to you, but QAnonon. is a military intelligence sciop that was created to distract and deceive true American patriots into believing that there was some form of operation going on behind the scenes to dismantle the deep state. How can we trust a plan when there's been no arrest made of the deep state? There has been numerous claims that the deep state has been. has been prosecuted and sent to Gitmo with absolutely zero valid evidence that these

things have taken place. Zero. The Clintons are still out. Obama's still out. Bush is still out. Fouchy's still out. Corrupt judges are still in control and three-letter agencies are still behind the scenes pulling the strings covering up on the Epstein case. There has been zero arrest made.