Radiolab - A Flock of Two

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

Animals rescue people all the time, but not like this. In this episode, first aired more than a decade ago, Jim Eggers is a 44-year-old man who suffers from a problem that not only puts his life at risk—it jeopardizes the safety of everybody around him. But with the help of Sadie, his pet African Grey Parrot, Jim found an unlikely way to manage his anger. African Grey Parrot expert Irene Pepperberg helps us understand how this could work, and shares some insights from her work with a parrot named Alex.And one quick note from our producer Pat Walters: Jim considers Sadie to be a “service animal,” a designation under the Americans with Disabilities Act that protects the rights of individuals with disabilities to bring certain animals into public places. The term service animal sometimes is legally limited to include only dogs and miniature horses. Jim disagrees with those limitations, but the local bus company, regardless of definitions, said they’ll make an exception for Sadie.

Hey, this is Radiolab. I'm Latif Nasser. So recently you may have seen just a rash of headlines about people using artificial intelligence for their mental health. There are all these therapists, bots, and just even people using regular chat bots to help them find solutions to their problem, to calm them down, to just looking for somebody to even just to listen. And I don't know, I'm not sure what to think of any of it for a lot of different reasons, but partially because the AI doesn't know anything. It's just taking an unimaginable amount of our words, scrambling them up and generating something relevant

and helpful and maybe even intelligent seeming, but it doesn't actually know what any of those words mean. Ultimately, all it's doing is parroting our language back at us. And yet I know a lot of people find it very helpful to talk to. All of that got me to thinking about a very different story

that we made here at the show years ago. A story where similarly a person who needs help is helped by something. And it's unclear if that something really knows how it's helping or whether it's helping. We originally aired this back in 2011, so that was years before ChatGPT, but it's sort of a low tech way of doing the same thing, of parroting your language back to you to help you. So today I wanna play that story for you. Here it is, a flock of two.

Yeah, wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening? Okay. Okay. You're listening to Radiolab. Radiolab. From WNYC. WNYC.

Rewind. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Trulwich. This is Radiolab, the podcast. And we're going to st. Louis. Yeah Nice nice and direct this comes from our producer Pat Walters. It's the story of a rescue a Double rescue really it's one we've been wanting to tell for a while Pat Walters, so a few months ago. I went to st. Louis because I'd heard this story about a guy

Who had this pet that basically saved his life. And the pet is a bird. It's about this guy named Jim Eggers. Oh, you're recording? Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna record. And in 2005, Jim was living by himself in a little apartment in St. Louis. It was a Halloween industry. It was the winter so Jim had just finished up his latest season at the local haunted house. I've done Halloween stuff for 19 years. What do you do? Most of the time I've been in costumes and so forth or wear masks.

You know like jumping out from behind dark corners and scaring people. I can scream and, you know, go nuts. Which is kind of a strange gig for a guy like Jim because he has a really hot temper. What's technically your diagnosis? I have a bipolar disorder with psychotic tendencies and what that pretty much is is when I'm having a mood swing or whatnot,

I can become extremely dangerous and violent. While I was there, he was totally calm. But Jim tells me that once he feels a mood swing, start coming on. It feels like real strange and tingly. It might just be a few seconds before all of a sudden, boom, here you are like the Incredible Hulk. Have you ever physically attacked someone and hurt them? Yeah.

Jim's known around his neighborhood for just losing it from time to time. He shouts at people on the street, punches dents in people's cars. One time he even poured hot coffee from a second story window onto his neighbor's head. I go off on people and it's horrible. And if you ask Jim, he'll tell you this all goes back to when he was seven. At the age of seven, I lost my kid brother in the Mississippi River.

I saw him drown. And you saw him drown? Yeah, I witnessed him drowning. We wandered away from home. We were not properly supervised by my parents. And I told my brother not to go over into the river because it was deep. He didn't listen to me.

And then the currents dragged him down. I saw him bob up and down three times. And the third time he didn't come back up. And I was pleading with God, crying, please bring him back, I'm gonna be in trouble and when Jim's parents found out they blamed him You know, it was my fault my brother drowned. I should have Been yeah, I should have saved him and then other times They told me that you know, they wish it was me that died instead of my brother

And then when he was 16 Jim's mom threw him out of the house. She just said one day, get out, Jim? Yeah, she said she didn't want me over there anymore. Get out. After that, Jim's life kind of spiraled out of control. He ended up living on the streets for years and just getting angrier and angrier at everyone around him. And then in 2005, which is where our part of the story begins, Jim did something that got him in very serious trouble.

Tell me about that Archbishop situation. Okay, as far as the... He'd been reading news reports about sexual abuse in the Catholic Church, and for reasons that aren't entirely clear, Jim had become convinced that the local Archbishop, Archbishop Raymond Burke, was involved in covering this stuff up. ...Baelin Alpries did have sexually assaulted children and so forth. And one day he was watching the news and he saw Burke on there like on the 12 o'clock news. Talking about something. Can't remember what.

And at that point I snapped and picked up a phone, dialed the archdiocese, asked them to I dialed the archdiocese, asked them to connect me to his office. Which like, idiots they did. When they did, I told them, you know, I ought to come down and kill you. I said, I may even do that Sunday. A couple hours later, Jim went out to run some errands. And when I head out the door, here were the police. Jim ended up getting sentenced to a year of probation. Just a few weeks into his probation, something happened that would basically set the story that we're telling about Jim in motion.

It was a typical Sunday morning and Jim's at church, and he runs into this couple. These people that own Variety Bird Shop in Valley Park. The husband stopped me and said, well, we know where you can get an African Grey Parrot. And they told me that she came with a cage. I said, why would they approach you? Well, I was putting $100 aside every month to pay for a baby African Grey Parrot. And you have to understand that Jim is kind of an animal in that. He's had dogs. And cats. Guinea pigs and stuff like that his whole life. Never a bird. But when Jim

read about these African Grey Parrots, he became kind of obsessed with getting one. Because I knew they were highly intelligent and they were a lot of fun. So when the bird shop people came up to Jim and said we can get you an African Grey Parrot. And she comes with the cage for $550. Jim thinks to himself, that's like half what I was going to pay. So he says, you know, I'll go ahead and take it. Because that was too good of a deal to pass up. There was a catch, though. The bird wasn't at the shop.

It was being sold by this local kid who was just trying to get rid of her. I went over there, and she looked absolutely horrible, because this kid didn't take care of her. She was about a foot tall. You want some peanut butter? She had a black beak. Pretty yellow eyes too.

Piercing yellow eyes. Bright red. And tail feathers. But when Jim first saw her, she didn't have any flight feathers in her left wing because she'd torn all of them out. Hello. Yeah, she torn all of them out. Hello. Yeah, she was plucking her feathers.

Which is this awful thing birds do when they get really stressed. And, I mean, she looked horrible. I almost wanted to say no after I saw her. But he knew he couldn't just leave her there. So he paid the kid, took her home, and gave her lots of loving and care. And within like three days, she bowed her head.

That means she pretty much bonded with me. Like the third week I owned her, I was in another room on the telephone and she said, Hey Jim, do you want a beer? And it's like, I don't drink beer. She would say that to you? Yeah. She asked me if I wanted a beer and then she'd ask, tell me stuff like, will you get me a beer? You know, made me choke on my coffee. But a few weeks later, Sadie started imitating Jim.

Yeah. She'll impersonate a little chuckle that I do. It's like... Yeah, yeah. Hahaha. It's even better than, Elmo could laugh. Rawr. Hahaha.

And as Sadie spent more time with Jim, she learned to say words and phrases. And then one day... Several weeks after I had her... Something kind of wonderful happened. I came home and I was like in a really bad mood. I knew I had to do something. One of those moments when Jim could just feel he was about to lose control. I was trying to talk myself into calming down.

What would that, what would that sound like? I was talking to myself and telling myself, calm down, you'll be okay, everything's fine, you know, and you know, it's not so bad. And then she started repeating it. Saying calm down, you'll be okay, everything's fine. Exactly. Just like Jim was saying. Word for word. I was like, wow, and it's like, that gives me an ideal.

Jim started rewarding Sadie every time she said something that might help calm him down. Like, you know. You'll be okay. Treat. Everything's fine, it's not as bad as you think. Treat. Shut up. Treat.

I don't want to hear it. Treat. I love you Jim, and she'll make a kissing sound. It just goes on and on and on. So Jim went online and actually found this special kind of cage that you can carry around on your back. Then I took her with me just everywhere. He even got her registered as a service animal. Kind of like a seeing eye dog. I mean everywhere. Where would you go with her? I've taken her into churches.

I've taken her aboard the public buses. Take her to the gym, yes. I've even taken her into a couple of casinos through here. And Jim and Sadie had a pretty good situation. When Jim started feeling himself get mad, he'd tell himself, calm down. Sadie would repeat him. But then, one day, a few years ago ago Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. That's right after this break Just before the break Jim and his parrot Sadie

Were developing this relationship where she would help him calm down when he was about to lose control. A few years ago, Sadie did something that went beyond mimicry. Jim says he doesn't exactly remember the first time it happened. I can't think of anything right now because I'm like blanking out. But it probably went something like this.

Jim's just out in the neighborhood one day. He's got Sadie in her little backpack cage. And something happens that sets Jim off. I don't know, a car cuts him off at the crosswalk. And immediately, Jim starts getting that tingly feeling. Yeah. And then, in this split second fraction of a moment before Jim starts to talk himself down like he does...

Calm down, Jim. Calm down. He hears, Calm down, Jim. ["Calm Down Jim"] From Sadie. Exactly. He hears, calm down Jim. From Sadie. Exactly. She says it first? Yeah. Wow. Like she knew what was in his mind or inside him,

like before he even did anything. Oh yeah, she knows, she can sense that. How do you suppose that was happening? I don't know, I mean Jim thinks maybe she can like feel a change in the way he's moving. You know, I have like body tremors when I'm starting to really get furious. Maybe Sadie can pick up on those tremors.

And Jim says this just kept happening. She does it all the time. And you know, it makes you stop to think. If I would go off on a person or something like that, I wouldn't have any remorse or anything. But I mean, it's just a little innocent animal. But seemed to know him in this really intimate way. Which kind of blew my mind.

But Sadie didn't do it while I was there. So I left Jim this tape recorder and I asked him to try to get something like this on tape, just so I could prove it to people. Hello, my name is James Eggers and I'm standing here with my parrot Sadie. She's standing here right next to me on her little perch. See something? You can see something to the microphone, huh? Week or so later, I got the tape back.

What do you have to say? And Siddy was on there saying all kinds of things, like hello. Hello. Hello. She said her name. Say it. She said good girl. Good girl.

Things that I could imagine Jim saying to her. But did you ever get a sense from anything she said that there was a kind of... good girl, things that I could imagine Jim saying to her. But did you ever get a sense from anything she said that there was a kind of weird intuitive exchange happening or something? Not really. But I thought if it happens as often as Jim says it happens, that someone in his neighborhood must have seen it. Yeah.

So I called this woman who runs a coffee shop around the corner from his house, asked her if she'd seen it. She hadn't. Oh. Then I figured I could call the company that runs the buses and the trains that Jim rides every day, thinking that maybe one of their drivers would have seen him get upset about something. And? Nothing. And then I called Jim's best friend Larry, and I figured if anyone has seen this,

it would be Larry, because he's around them like all the time. He hadn't either. Huh. So I called Jim to ask if I was like missing anybody. He didn't answer, so I left a message. Left another message. Then finally, hello? Hi Jim, I got him on the phone. It's Pat again.

Yeah, go ahead. It seems like nobody else has ever seen her or heard her say those kinds of things to you. Well, she definitely has said those. But, I mean, she's not going to say the same thing every time she talks to me. Right, but has anyone ever seen her talk you down from being mad? No, because most of the time people aren't around me when I'm having a mood swing. I started to wonder, like, is this the kind of thing a parrot is even capable of?

So I decided to check. Hello. I called the scientist. I'm Dr. Irene Pepperberg, adjunct associate professor at Brandeis University. She's basically the world's expert on African grey parrots. So I asked her, have you ever heard of anything like this before? Not exactly, but it doesn't surprise me. In fact, Irene told me that something kind of similar had happened to her once.

With this parrot named Alex that she worked with for like decades. Irene told me that whenever Alex would get out of line. Preening instead of working or butting in with the other birds when he should be quiet so we can train them, we'd say to him calm down, just calm down. And one time I come storming into the laboratory because I've just come from a horrible faculty meeting when I was in Tucson and Alex takes one look at me and he says, calm down. Really? Yeah.

And I actually stormed off and I said something to the effect of, don't you tell me to calm down and I went into my office and slammed the door. And Irene says that a parrot like Alex or Sadie probably doesn't know what calm down means or you'll be okay, Jim. She may not know what each of those little phrases mean but she knows that when she says calm down Jim calms down so she has learned from association that that will bring her flock mate back to normal which is a big deal for parrots Irene says because they're prey so they're constantly looking out for each other trying to keep from getting eaten. And in Sadie's case...

She's in a flock of two at this point, so if she wants to feel comfortable while preening or eating, she needs to know that he's going to be watching out for her. Remember, she doesn't have a big flock. She just has him. Wow, so in the end, what do you make of all this? Well I mean, I can't prove that she does the things Jim says she does. But on the other hand, everyone I talk to around Jim says that whatever is happening between them is keeping him from threatening people on the street, from punching dents

in people's cars. It's just keeping him a better guy. Yeah. So, maybe it doesn't matter. I don't care if anybody believes me or not. You know, it's not, I'm not here to prove anything to anybody, that's not the point. The point is, I know what she does, and that is that.

No, he can't do it. is I know what she does and that is that. Say hello. No burp. No, don't eat, no eat. No, don't eat, no eat. Couchy, couchy, couchy, couchy. Couchy, couchy, couchy, no. Thanks to Pat Walters. Come on, fly home. And to Sadie.

Hello. Good girl. And to Jim. Sadie, what are you looking at, huh? She's got her eyes focused on me. And trying to figure out what you're doing with the mic. Yes, yeah. Can I get you some coffee?

Thanks. Hi, I'm Jonathan and I'm from St. Louis, Missouri. Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Lutf Nasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bresler, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gabel, Rebecca Lacks, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nanyu Sambadam,

Matt Kielty, Annie McEwan, Alex Niesen, Sarah Khari, Sarah Sandbach, Anisa Vita, Ariane Wack, Pat Walters, Molly Webster, Jessica Young, with help from Rebecca Rand. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, Anna Pujol-Matsuni, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, I'm Daniel from Madrid. Leadership support from Radiolab Science Programming is provided by the Simons Foundation and the John Temple Toll Foundation. Foundation of support from Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.