Radiolab - Birthstory

Episode Date: January 27, 2023

You know the drill — all it takes is one sperm, one egg, and blammo — you’ve got yourself a baby. Right? Well, in this 2015 episode, conception takes on a new form — it’s the sperm and the egg, plus: two wombs, four countries, and money. Lots of money.  This is the story of an Israeli couple, two men, who go to another continent to get themselves a baby — three, in fact — by hiring surrogates to carry the children for them. As we follow them on their journey, an earth-shaking revelation shifts our focus from them to the surrogate mothers. Unfolding in real time, as countries around the world considered bans on surrogacy, this episode looked at a relationship that manages to feel deeply affecting and deeply uncomfortable at the same time.  “Birthstory” is a collaboration with the brilliant radio show and podcast Israel Story, created to tell stories for, and about, Israel. Go check ‘em out! (https://zpr.io/rX3DazcJiUUG)  Israel Story's five English-language seasons were produced in partnership with Tablet Magazine (https://zpr.io/HxYET7psAbPh) and we highly recommend you listen to all of their work at (https://zpr.io/HD3LSqq25LEx)  This episode was produced and reported by Molly Webster. Special thanks go to: Israel Story, and their producers Maya Kosover, and Yochai Maital; reporters Nilanjana Bhowmick in India and Bhrikuti Rai in Nepal plus the International Reporting Project (https://zpr.io/KxN7etFiqWHL); Doron Mamet, Dr Nayana Patel, and Vicki Ferrara; with translation help from Aya Keefe, Karthik Ravindra, Turna Ray, Tom Wasserman, Pradeep Thapa, and Adhikaar (https://zpr.io/MDyadskgwZtH), an organization in Ridgewood, Queens advocating for the Nepali-speaking community.  Audio Extra: Tal and Air had a chance to meet each surrogate once - just after the deliveries, after all the paperwork was sorted out, and before any one left Nepal. As Amir says, they wanted to say "a big thank you." These meetings between intended parents, surrogate, and new babies are a traditional part of the surrogacy process in India and Nepal, and we heard reports from the surrogates that they also look forward to them. These moments do not stigmatize, reveal the identity of, or endanger the surrogates. Tal and Amir provided the audio for this web extra. EPISODE CREDITS: Reported by - Molly Websterwith help from - Maya Kosover, Yochai Maital, Bhrikuti Rai

Hey, Molly Webster here. Last week we had a story in collaboration with NPR's Rough Translation about an amateur network of strangers trying to get abortion pills into Ukraine in the early months of the war. Part two where we go into Ukraine, that's coming out next week, in the meantime, I've got a little radio lab rewind for you. I wanted to play you a story that we did in 2015, so eight years ago, because I've been thinking about it a lot while I've been working on the Ukraine piece. It is also

a mix of border crossings and ethics and medical questions and pregnancy and crisis, and it just has Just has a really big heart. It's called Birth Story. Here it is. Wait, you're listening. Okay. Alright. Okay. Alright. Okay. You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab.

From WNYC. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey.

Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Hey. Okay, I'm Chad, I'm Rod. I'm Robert Krollwich. Webs. Oh, my let's talk. Yeah, do it. Oh, I'm Molly Webster. Yeah.

You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated.

You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. You just graduated. what it is. We're going to tell you about babies who are very recently born and who one day will turn to their parents and say to them, tell me how I got here. Like what's what's what's what's my story? What's my story?

And the parents in this case will say, well, that's complicated. This is one where the kids will hear what we're you're about to hear and they'll go really? It's a collaboration with a team of reporters in Israel called Israel Story. They are a group of folks who do sort of long form reporting and storytelling. They've been doing it in Hebrew for three years and they are in the middle of their first English language season right now. Which we're going to be in. Exactly.

And this is two producers that we work with in particular Maya Kosova and Yohai Metal. And this story begins with Maya. Okay, it was party, we were all dancing, Israeli music in the middle of Jaffa. It was a birthday, they were at a apartment, and it's Guy Tal. Tal was dancing with his partner. These are friends of yours? Yeah, Tal is kind of a mega star in the deaf community in Israel because he translates the news in the TV to deaf people to sign language.

Oh well, so he's like the little guy in the corner of the TV. Yeah. And his partner? Amir. Amir or Amir? Amir. With an R. He's a psychologist that works especially with children that are autistic.

Anyway, they're at the party. So we were dancing all together and then Tal was, oh my God, maybe it's going to be the less party that I'm in because I'm going to be a parent and not only a parent, I'm going to be a father for three. And then we were like, oh my God, three babies. How is that going to happen? And it turns out how that was going to happen is a...

It's a crazy story involving four countries. Three women. Two guys and three babies, as we mentioned. And two, we check points. We check points. Two of them. Hundreds of thousands of dollars. At least four languages.

Yes, I have to tell you, yes, all that. But we should go back a bit to the beginning. The first thing that I saw in Tali is his ability to be a father. This is a mirror. Really? Yeah. How so? Because he was a good man. You know, he was very gentle and man, you know, he was very gentle and really an adult to build a family. I don't know to describe it to me. I'd like to see that. I mean, you know, America is also more like a real dash. If did you see that like on first meeting or was this like four months in? My career is established to work with artistic people and to take notice for every sign of communication and to understand other people and to analyze them.

So it was really immediate, I said. Let's say after two or three times, he said, okay, I want children. So are you interested? I wrote a manifest about my future, what I want to do, what I want to do in my career. It's kind of my vision. And I gave it to him and I said, this is what I want. I... Sign at the bottom, please.

Yeah, it kind of was a contract. It's like, this is what I want. If you want to join me... So let's do it. So let's do it. And tell what was your reaction to the manifesto? what I want. If you want to join me, so let's do it. So let's do it. And tell what was your reaction to the to the manifesto? I like it. It's looks like someone who want the future. If your own parents have any

either of your parents have any views about that? Saying don't do. It's weird. Yeah. Yeah. So if I used to say their families did not approve, especially when it came to the idea of them having kids. Now, how to have those kids? That is a question. Basically, there are two options.

If you're a gay couple and you want to have, there used to be three options. That's Yukai Myt towel from Israel's story. Here is how he and Maya laid it out for us. Option number one, which is now not as much of an option. You could adopt a kid from a third world country. But he says over the last few years what happened is that those third world countries figured out who was adopting their babies and one by one. They banned it for gay couples.

Yeah. The second option which is becoming very, very popular in Israel, is sort of the new family. That's what it's called in Hebrew, at least. Sort of getting together with another woman who wants to be a mother, but doesn't have a father. And then they do a joint parenthood. They all live in the same house? No. The mother lives separately and it's kind of like divorced parents that get along really well.

They sign a contract before the process and everything is in the contract. Tell Namiar said that early on, they tried this route. Tell got an offer from one of his friends to do the co-parenting, but then I spoke with Tell and asked him, listen, it's very important for me to have a baby of my own with my sperm. I said to Omeer, I want to have a baby of my own, with my sperm. And I said to Amir, I want to try, but I don't care if, in the end, we have only one baby in your sperm,

so it will be my baby the same. I think I was more stubborn about it, in total. Amir couldn't really explain why it was so important to him, just that it was important to him, but reflecting on it later, Maya, from from Israel's story put it this way. It's very Jewish and Israeli. I mean, if you are not in the Israeli mainstream, if you are gay or if you are different and you'll have your own baby, it's like a signature of being part of the game, you know.

Whatever the reason Amir and Tal talked it over, and then they went back to this woman, Tal's friend who had offered to do the co-parenting. And we asked her if she can obligate to us to bring two children, one of Tal's firms and one of my own. In the end, she said, no. And at this point, a year had gone by. So then we've decided that maybe the best option would be. Option three is

is Sirugacy Meaning of course if you're a gay man that you take your sperm take some eggs from a woman Put your sperm in those eggs into the womb of a second woman Who carries the baby to term but Sirugacy is illegal in Israel only for gay couples Yeah in Israel if you're a hetero couple you can use an Israeli woman as a surrogacy is illegal in Israel. Only for gay couples, yeah. In Israel if you're a heterocouple you can use an Israeli woman as a surrogate, but if you're gay you can't. So there's a big problem, but that problem also creates a big demand. As you can imagine, quite a lot of

gay couples in Israel, and so the companies spring up basically offering international brokering of sperm eggs and ovaries. Babies outsourcing. You can see this play out every year at these conferences in Israel. Conferences where they get prospective parents together. We are here for our first time in Tel Aviv. So it's this big room of people. Several hundred people. Pretty much all gay men. Pardon me for not being able to speak Hebrew very well, or at all.

Shalom. Basically what happens at these conferences is that surrogacy agencies will get up and basically sell their products. We now offer surrogacy in Mexico, DioNTe, Panama, the United States, India. Anybody that have been to Fort Worth? Very nice place. You can go see a basketball game, you can go see a baseball game. These agencies will find women in all

of these places who will serve as the surrogate for your child, depending on which country you choose and whether or not you provide the donor eggs or they do or a million other factors, the costs will vary. We offer very competitive prices. For example, $36,000, complete start to finish in Mexico. $38,000 in Thailand. Anywhere from $65,000 to $85,000, $150,000. It could be that much. That's excluding the donor, of course, but we have a good selection of donors,

including Jewish donors as well. Yeah, and we have session with the lawyers, you have session with the... The family, you have session with the doctors. You have session with the... The family is your session with the doctors. Tell Namiro went to two of these conferences, successive years, and coming back from the second one. We take a calculator and the... Yeah, we start to think how we can make it.

Reaching money, money, money. Yeah. They figure if they go with a company that does circus in the US. It's probably going to cost $150,000 or... Is that lawyers? And lawyers, the hospitals, the sperm delivery, the egg donor. There is a lot of people that we need to pay.

And he says, keep in mind, when you pay that money, you are not guaranteed a baby. You buy a process. Yeah. We don't buy a baby. One of our friends did this kind of process and they spent five times and they still didn't succeed. Five times. Yeah. They figured with that kind of risk, doing it in the US was just too expensive.

And so they started looking at surrogacy agencies which operate in India and Nepal. Because over there you can do the same thing and it will cost you about $60,000. So it's almost half price. Almost a half price, yeah. Now, one of the tricky things, according to your high, is that in 2013, India basically outlawed surrogacy. For gay couples, I mean, if you're a straight couple,

you can do surrogacy in India. But not if you're gay. Also in a parallel, by the way, in a parallel also outlawed surrogacy. Effectively, the cabinet said, if you are a Napali woman, you cannot be a surrogate period. But, there's sort of a loophole. Indian women are allowed to be surrogates in Nepal.

Just Nepali women aren't allowed to be surrogates in Nepal. So, what ends up happening is this really strange situation. It looks like a puzzle. These agents in northern India will find Indian women. Move them across the border into Nepal, take them all the way to Kathmandu, where the surrogacy agencies have set up shelter houses and work with local hospitals and clinics. Maya says, for Talonamir, the decision to do it this way was not easy.

They had like different opinions. Tal had a bigger issue with the moral concept of this process. Yeah. Amir was like, this is the thing that we need to do. I want to be a father. But Tal. Tal was very hard for him. I thought it's a moral to do, think like that.

To use another woman to give me a present like that, and I know she will never see this baby anymore. Is it a moral because you're essentially just using a woman's body? Yeah, you can say that. He felt like he's using other people at luck for his own good. Yeah. She has no choice. She's not doing it out of freedom.

She's just doing it for the money and maybe it's not morally okay that will use this weakness. Telling me you went back and forth on this for months and eventually the argument that one the day was this. That if they're going to do it, they're going to do it with this agency called Lotus, which to their understanding paid the surrogates $12,000. I mean the surrogates were actually paid in Indian rupees, but that would be the dollar equivalent.

$12,000. Now, for a rural woman in India, that is a massive sum of money. They figured this won't just help her survive, it will change her life. She'll be changing their life and they'll be changing hers. Maybe this was kind of what comfort. Yeah, they get money, they can change their life, they can buy a house, they can send their her children to school, to learn in the university. When I thought and understand it would be life changer and it's not... Exploiting. Exploiting are so I agree.

At the start of the whole process, one of the main issues was to peak the egg donor. And like, who are these women? Like, where do they come from? Ukraine. They're from the Ukraine. They're all Ukrainian. That is not a country expected to be thrown into the mix of countries. The reason the eggs are from Eastern Europe are generally because they're white. So it's like cheap white eggs. Cheap white eggs.

Wow, that's quite a phrase. So you have like a website and you see a lot of pictures of women. And then you need to choose the most... It's like J-Date? Yeah. Jewish online dating service. Yeah, I think it was the most straightish act that I did in a very long time. Oh, straightest.

Oh, because you're picking out a lady. Yeah, how did you decide which criteria you wanted in a donor mom? No. The first one was height. You wanted someone tall. Yeah. Why? Why was height? Your first one.

Because then it's more easy to live when you're height. Yeah. Okay. ‫כי זה... ‫-היה, זה מורך... ‫-היה, זה מורך. ‫-היה, ובאחר. ‫-היה. ‫-היה. ‫-היה. ‫היה עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד.

‫הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד. ‫הוא עוד עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד עוד. ‫-הוא עוד. It was very uncomfortable to choose. For me, it was very... I think it's a different story. It's a generic... like improving... Oh, you're doing like a... Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

You're genics. Huh. Now, since Talon Mir had each wanted a baby with their own sperm, they told Lotus. We would like to rent two wombs, no guarantees. So, Talonamir, they give Lotus their sperm and little cups, Lotus reases the sperm, sends it to a hospital in Nepal. The Ukrainian woman, the egg donor, is flown to Nepal, her eggs are harvested somewhere along the way to North Indian women are moved across the border into Nepal.

Finally the doctors at that in Nepal, the hospital take the Israeli sperm, injected into the Ukrainian eggs, create some embryos, and implant those embryos in the wombs of the Indian circuits. Four countries, one baby. A few months go by, they get the news that both surrogates are pregnant. The process worked. One is pregnant with twins, three babies in all. They're sent sonograms, pictures of the surrogates pregnant bellies.

I all the time look on the picture of her, all the ultrasound pictures, all the time looking on my cell phone in the picture. Gistelle says there wasn't really much she could do because for three or four or five months, not much happened. Until. Six months in. Six o'clock in the morning. Dana from Lotus called us and Amir was answering the phone and I hear him said, okay they are okay, I wake up and say what because it was too early, too early, how early?

about eight weeks ahead, wow. The surrogate who is carrying twins had given birth. I was cry a lot. Wow, the surrogate who was carrying twins had given birth. I was crying a lot This is the surrogate carrying Tals baby which turned out to be two babies. Yeah, were you on the plane the same day is getting that color Day after we we fly from Tel Aviv to Istanbul and From Istanbul to It was very... Crazy day. I then gilley.

This is one of Tal's friends who was also in the Paul for Sir Gasi. It took me to the hospital. And wow. I was shocked. Because Gilly was so tiny. Gilly was 3.8 pounds. His brother Yuval, 4.8 pounds. And I was very scared to touching.

He says he expected the twins to stay in the hospital for a month, but the nurses were like, nope, going on tomorrow. I thought I don't have enough time to think because I understand tomorrow I need to take them home and to be alone and I never take care of in the babies. So I said to the nurses, teach me how to feed them. And after three days, I took them home. So where was the surrogate during these days, was she at the hospital?

I think she was in the hospital. Because she had a seesarian surgery. I was asked if she's okay and if she needs something they said you cannot see her until she signed all the papers and then you can see her. The papers hadn't been signed. Yeah, because we need that she's giving up all her maternally rights. And if she doesn't want to sign on this paper, we can lose the baby. The laws on this get crazily complicated, but basically they needed Israel, India, and Nepal to all recognize that they were the uncontested parents. And hanging in the air.

We've been terrified. It was a recent case in Thailand, which is all over the news, where the surrogate, that they were the uncontested parents. And hanging in the air. We have been terrified. It was a recent case in Thailand, which is all over the news, where the surrogate, after the baby was born, changed her mind. Lake and his husband believe the surrogate decided to try and keep the baby, because she found out they were gay. We had a little bit of an anxiety, let's say, if they were going to know that the baby is going to grow

in a house with two dads. In a case, Tal is in Nepal with the twins, Amir is back in Tel Aviv, a couple weeks go by and then... Tal called me and said, the Mazeltovier dad. The second circuit had given birth, one baby. And day after, to Istanbul, went from Istanbul to Kathmandu. And then it was very, very, very nice that we went, only asked with the babies, like no parents, no friends, no phone, no phones, no war. To build the first blocks of our relationship with the babies. And for the next month, they lived in an apartment in Nepal, just them and their three babies.

Learning to be dads. Waiting for the paperwork to be done. Now the paperwork incidentally is a beast because after the circuit sign way there are rights, the babies have no nationality. And then they're suddenly illegally in the country. So then the guys have to take a DNA test and it to Israel get verified, then they've got to get a passport for the babies, then several sets of visas need to be gotten.

And all of that means multiple trips to the Israeli embassy. And it was on one of those trips that they learned something. It was really weird because we went over there with our kids to get the passport. And over there, there was sergon from a different agency. An Indian woman and standing next to her was an Israeli woman who happened to speak Hindi. And we just like you know out of curiosity we asked her to ask the sergon in Hindu how much she's getting for the whole process. Yeah, but the ser service was very shy.

Yes. Not very delighted to speak about the money. Which made them even more curious, so they persisted. And then we discovered that she get only three thousand US dollars or something like that. Three thousand dollars for the whole pregnancy. Mirrors like, wait a second. In the agreement, $12,500, supposed to go to the surrogate.

That was at least his understanding. Now, this was a different woman from a different agency, and this was just one woman's account. But still. In your narrative, you've described that you thought that the reason that this was okay to do the circusy is because you or you the phrase uses this will make a change in the life of the woman No, yes a life changing some of money Somias says they walked away from that meeting wondering if they should do something in Israel

You know call the agency to really say hey, we heard some rumors I'm sure they're not true, but what do you think? We started to ask questions, but then... literally the next day. horrendous scenes of death and destruction from the Paul today. After a powerful earthquake that started outside Kutman-Doo... It's not really big a jump on the street. We get a lot of slender. And every floor that moving like that, that's it. We're going to have to land it. And before that we're moving like that. The death toll is now over 5,800 nearly 14,000 orange.

Officials say it is the most destructive earthquake to hit Nepal in more than 80 years. The death toll would ultimately rise to somewhere between 7 and 10,000. Maya says she was in New York in a meeting and she gets this voicemail from Tal. I was like, I'm going to die, I'm going to die. I'm going to die. And he was shouting in earthquake just happened here. We saved the babies and we got down to the street.

We are half naked. We don't know what to do and he's crying over there. And then... That's why I'm like this. I'm going to die. وحفنة قد يدعون ما يدعون ويجبون فيه ويجبون لا يجبون لا يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون

يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون

يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون يجبون No connection to them. We didn't know if their lives are not, you know, everything was unknown. I don't know how Batal took his cell phone and we just ran barefoot. Mir says they ran out of the apartment down the street half naked holding the babies and the phone. On the way they ran into their friend Gilles who had four babies and other couple who had two babies.

We are in this street and we are nine babies. Yes, they actually shot a video on Toss Phone. You see Toss only in shorts. A bunch of other couples holding babies and they're all literally standing on a pile of rubble. As they're standing there a guy with a badge walks by. Your policeman? Ah, no.

You're from the American Embassy? Yes. Where is Riley Citizen? We have in... Nine babies. We need help. Please, we don't have food for the babies. Thank you.

To go out from this place very quickly. To go out from here. Thank you to go from this place very quickly to go from here. Thank you So they took us in to the embassy the US Embassy or the Is really embassy They went to the Israeli Embassy and the Israeli Embassy sort of went into emergency mode Give He gave us some blankets and they put out tents. And shortly after, the news cameras arrived. And Tal.

Tal is, he's like in the media and stuff because he's the sign language translator. And so he realized that he doesn't have any way of communicating back home that he's alive. So you guys says Tal shoved his way in front from one of the television cameras and started signing. 12 hours after the earthquake, Maya says she got a call from her partner back in Tel Aviv. And she said, there are on the news now. I can see Tal speaking sign language to his parents saying everything is okay.

There are live, the three babies are with them, and they're waiting to the rescue team to come and take them. But what the camera's also captured was this scene that hadn't really been grasped yet. So this whole thing has been going on kind of quietly. Now you have an international earthquake, everybody's watching the television, and in the middle of the story, they're like 10 Israeli babies and gay people. And all this, there's more than 10 babies.

Yeah, it was like 24 own babies. 24? 24? Yeah. Yes. Because there is another agency that, that is also, it's like all of a sudden you realize

there's this pipeline of babies. Yes. Moving from Nepal to Israel. Yeah. Maya says when the images of those 24 babies splashed across Israeli TV screens. It was like the first time that the interrogation was discussed in the Israeli media as such way. She says a huge debate broke out. One side of the argument was, okay, we are using women and it's un-moral.

And from the other hand, there was like, okay, in Israel, for gay couples, they don't have a lot of choices, I mean. And everyone was asking, what do we do with all these babies and the surrogates? There was like a huge argument in the Israeli media about the questions of there are women that are waiting to to give birth and we need to bring them to Israel to give birth here because the fathers are here. So they would fly the women to Israel, have the baby and then fly them back? Yes, they was talking about it. Yeah, they talked about it but I don't know, I think that legally, they could not do that. Because that just, it feels like kidnapping a lady.

Yeah, and so what happened was that very quickly, Israel sent over a search and rescue and medical aid delegation. In all the babies, in their parents. They basically just all put on a plane, and sort of the process was exped expedited and they just brought everybody over to Israel. Back in Israel, a parade of newborns. They will celebrate together knowing the medical stress they've been through and very much aware that many in Nepal are still going through it. So what happened to the surrogates? Any idea?

They checked with the agency what is the situation with the surrogate mothers, and the answer was that two of them are back in India already, and they weren't there in their earthquake. And what about all the surrogates who were in the Paul but hadn't given birth yet? Yeah, I mean, about them, there's a big question. I mean, no one knows. They were like worried fathers in Israel. It's terrifying. All my thoughts, all my prayers are for the Served Mother and for their unborn child.

Telling them you made it back to Israel with their babies, they were fine, but there was still a lot of questions. If I were one of you guys, I would still be wondering, after all, both of these women gave you, as you point out, a remarkable gift. Both of you believe that you hope, rather, both of you hope that that gift was well rewarded and was life changing. But both of you don't know at this point, you're just a little suspicious that maybe it wasn't. And don't you have this funny feeling that you need to find out whether they got paid what you thought you'd paid them. Yeah like this is why we're so glad that we made the connection with

you guys and we heard that you can find them maybe. Yeah. So we started a kind of a whole new leg of the story. Hello. Hello. Hi, Mali. Can you hear me? Yes, I can hear you. Ooh, I hear some other things too. Oh, what do you hear? Actually, it might just be I'll just switch off the fan, just give me a second. Our producer, Molly Webster, was able to track down a reporter in India, Nalajanabomik, and jester if she could find those surrogates. Okay, so you had given me a name, right? Lotus. Lotus has your representative in Nepal. She asked her if she could find those surrogates. Okay, so you had given me a name, right? No, yes, yes. Lotus.

Lotus has your representative in Nepal. I actually call that person in Nepal. And they did tell me, you know, the location of the clinic. And I spoke to the doctor and she said that, yes, I will put you in touch with one of the surrogates. And the next morning, we were supposed to touch us again, but then, you know, she just totally went in communicative.

That's when the same day I opened my mail and there was a mail from Israel, you know, morning, we were supposed to touch us again, but then she just totally went in communicative. That's when the same day I opened my mail and there was a mail from Israel, you know, they're asking me, like, just like to stop the search for some time. And I was like, I was so near them. As far as we understand what happened was that the doctor contacted Lotus, Lotus contacted Tallinn Amir, saying, call off the reporters, you're putting these women's lives in danger. If someone in their village sees a reporter hanging around, they'll know those women were surrogates.

That's not something these surrogates want people to know. Stop. Here's my understanding. You guys correct me if I'm wrong? Is that we had asked someone to look for them. And that person got kind of close and then word got back to the agency. And that's created some pressure

For us to change and you know that's really what we're sort of staring at right now is how to respond We heard that there is a real threat on their life because of the culture of the society that they live in One of them was Muslim. I don't know if if the Muslim society is going to accept the fact that she carried the pregnancy to a gay couple and to Israelis. And to Israelis. Yeah, so that's a very very very very delicate situation. Yeah, we don't want anything that may hurt the surrogate. Well, I mean, we want to tell this story. We definitely don't want anyone to get hurt, but I do feel like we have an ethical obligation

to hear from the women who do this. If not the specific women in this case, then people who represent their experience to whatever degree it can be represented. It would feel wrong for that to be a voice that we don't hear. I don't know. It's like, it's for us, it's a, we don't want that anybody will contact our

surrogate. And if it says that it's not going to be without a story, so let's be it, because it's not worth it for us. Okay, understood, understood. We won't make any further attempts to contact those two women. Yeah. Yeah. Just so we're all clear, I think what I'd like to do is to continue to pursue people who have been in similar situations, but are not in any way connected to those two women or to you guys. OK. I mean, again, we need to only make sure that nobody's going to be hurt.

Absolutely. Absolutely. That's where we left things with Talonamir and then the story changed a lot. That's coming up. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Krohwitch. I'm Molly Webster. This is Radio Lab and we will return now to our collaboration with Israel Story, producer is Maya Kosovar and you're Haye Mitel. The story of Talonamir and their three babies.

Now, that's how it started for us. It was a story of two guys trying to have some kids. But around the point of the earthquake, the story really shifted for us. I mean, as it did for the entire world, really. Because we've been concentrating the tale so far on the fathers, but with 20s for some odd babies, that's an awful lot of women.

Who got to carry those babies. So what could they be thinking? What is the story about them? How are they feeling about this transaction? How much are they getting? Will it actually change their life? These are some of the questions we had. We gave those questions to Molly and she sort of ran with it. Yeah. So in the months after the earthquake, I guess you could say the like the political situation in Nepal changed. How everyone started looking at Sir Gacy changed. Once everyone saw these pictures of all these babies outside the Israeli embassy being put

on airplanes and sent back to Israel, it just cracked open this huge debate. Not just back in Israel, but in Nepal and India, even internationally. Basically, you had groups coming out and saying, like, you know, the feminist were saying this is exploitation, and we're just using these women for their wombs. And there were op-ed articles articles about should we be shifting women across borders? Is this the way you want to do surrogacy? And then sort of the next thing that happens, like three weeks after we talked to Tallinn

and Mir, is that Nepal actually decided to ban surrogacy? Completely. Completely. And for both straights, for both same-sex couples, foreign couples, local couples, and for both straights for both same-sex couples foreign couples local couples and for Napoli women couldn't do it and Indian women couldn't come into their borders and do it no more surrogacy no more loopholes no more surrogacy normal loopholes, but then the confusion was that they banned surrogacy, but there were still pregnant surrogates on the ground and

So they sort of existed in this gray zone. And in the midst of that was when we went out to try and find surrogates. In Nepal, all the surrogates are kept in what are called shelter houses, which are just like houses that agencies rent out that have a lot of pregnant women. Even though they're still having houses. Yes, they still have these houses.

The rumors are that they move the houses further away from the city center, like a track less attention. And so we found a Napoli reporter. I'm Pricutti Rae and I'm a freelance journalist based in Kathmandu to go trying to get into one of these shelter houses. So the shelter house is actually quite far from the main city center. Almost half an hour or 40 minutes drive from Kathmandu. It's on a hilltop because these are the outskirts of Kathmandu where new settlements have just started.

So, it was actually a school building which they turned into a shelter because I think the school had left after the earthquake. The moment I reached the first floor, I was so surprised it was very noisy, a lot of children playing around. And turns out a lot of women bring in the young children if they are too young to be left alone. Really? Yeah. And how many women were there? They were around, I think, 20 or 22 women there. 20 or 22 women on the first floor of this building?

Yeah. This shelter house was run by another Israeli agency. So not Lotus, but a different one. And we're guessing that most of the women were carrying babies for Israeli couples. And at least the women I saw who outside the room or who had their doors open. They seemed to be around 30 to early 40s. Really?

Yeah. So in the first time I saw, the first woman I talked to, how many years have you been? Me. She was wearing like a mustard color, sari. I think she had some bangles. All the women had some bangles in their hands. She had some bangles all the women had some bangles in their hands and she said she was 36 years old. From Kolkata. She has two girls. Bracudia asked how old are your girls? She said eight and twelve. So, she said,

and then Bukhuri asked like, why are you doing this? And the woman said, oh, I'm doing it for them. It's because, you know, we have a lot of financial problems. My husband is a Rikshadriver and we don't make enough. And she worked as a maid in Delhi.

And ultimately, she said she had no other way to raise money for her daughters to get married, because in Hindu weddings, the bride's family pays off the groom in the form of a dowry. The plan was to use the money from Saragasi for the dowry. She'd been in Kathmandu for three months, so she was in her first trimester. And when Bukudi asked her, does she know who the baby is for? She said no. But she knows it's not hers.

And actually, all the women that Prakudi talked to were very, very clear about this. This is a job, we don't know what to do, but we have a take-up. The second woman I talked to, 30 years old, also a maiden Delhi, also two daughters. She looked all dressed up, she was already to, as if she was about to leave somewhere and then I realized her her husband is here. She had just given birth and she put the job sentiment pretty plainly. So she said, and I'm translating here. I will give gladly. I will give the baby from my womb. If I will think this is my baby, then how will it work? I have two children. I cannot take this child home.

I will have to give. I have no sadness, no problem. Anytime Bracudias these women are you conflicted, we have trouble giving the baby up. She always got the same answer. No, no, no, no, no. They all said that we would happily give away the child and one of them even said,

I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. If the baby comes out right now, I'll just give a try to the way that she loved. Did you get a sense that these women didn't want it, known that they were doing this? I mean, some of them did and some of them didn't, because some women were like, they said, like, now that I'm here, my neighbor's my family, everyone knows. And then when Rukudi asked her, do they have an opinion? Is it right or wrong?

She answered, no. I'm here for the money, so I would not listen to any opinions. If it was wrong, I would not come here. But some of them were like, why would I tell anyone? There was one particular woman. 32 years old. She said, people in my on, and she had like this pink lipstick on. She said, people in my village simply do not believe these things. That one can have children by getting injected or taking medicines. They won't believe this. She kind of drew parallels with how some of the people in a village

had done something similar when they bred cows or fishes. She said, maybe they'll understand, but my family will not understand. No. She says, I have told lies to them. So how much in the end do they make? How much money do you get here? I talk to four women and the figure was the same.

3.5 lakhs. What does that mean in dollars? So if you do the conversion today, it's a $5,300 US dollars. And the way it works is that they get paid a small amount of money every month that they're pregnant and then at the end they get a lump sum. Bracudy says that for these women at the end of the pregnancy that lump sum? It's like let's say around two or three thousand dollars. Which is the amount that Talon and Mir heard outside the embassy.

The total sum that they have when they go back home is quite, you know, it's not a lot. So, five or $2,000 is what you're hearing. Yeah. Well, that's a difference. To sort of see if this was a number that was just coming out of that shelter house, or if it was something that was like the going rate, I guess, we talked to six surrogates who were in India, that same rate, around $5,000 kept coming up.

We did hear a range from one surrogate, and this was about a friend of hers. We heard as low as a thousand. A surrogate getting only a thousand dollars for a pregnancy? Yeah. Hello. Hello. This is Jerusalem Calling. Hi. This is New York answering. Ultimately we took this information back to Tallna Mir because this was originally their

question. Yeah. So let's talk about the money part now. All right. So the last time we talked to you, you thought you were paying your surrogates $12,000. Yes. Around, Ish. We've been off reporting, and it seems like the number

that's coming up most consistently for what surrogates are reporting as their rate. Okay. It's $5,300. What? Yeah, I think it's fast too much. What? Yeah, I don't know if it's fast too much. Wow. It's too low.

It's too low. Really? Yeah. I want to cry. We explained to them that if you actually look at the contract, the line that looks like its payment straight to the surrogate doesn't actually say this is payment for the surrogate, it says this is payment to surrogacy services. And it's sort of like once you add in that second word, it opens the door to all kinds of things. She's getting less than a half.

It's very, it's like, we feel like suckers. It's a good thing. Who get the money? So who got the money? That question, it hung in the air for a few weeks. Until I have around seven minutes before I go into something that I'm missing my car now. And then I was finally able to talk to Donna McDawsey, I have around seven minutes before I go away into something that I'm missing my car now. I was finally able to talk to Donna McDawsey, who is the head of Lotus, which is the agency that Talon Amir used in Nepal.

She had just, the morning I talked to her, she had just flown in from Nepal to Israel and I caught her in a car on her way back to the airport and she was going to fly off to Australia. And I asked her, how much do the surrogates actually get paid? I can tell you truly that I worked in India in the past since 2010 and I cannot tell you exactly how much to serenade holds me in hand at the end of the procedure because we don't transfer the funds to the surrogate herself. She's saying she has no idea and the reason she has no idea is because

She said this and other agencies I spoke to said this is that when you're working on the ground in foreign countries Under the umbrella of surrogacy You are dealing with a lot of middlemen and the middlemen have middlemen and there are sub-middlemen The the people who find the women in India who get all the paperwork done who get them to the border who get them over the border Who then bring them to Nepal someone meets them in Cam, who get them to the border, who get them over the border, who then bring them to Zimpal. Someone meets them in Kamendu, gets them to the shelter house, and all those people, they need to get paid. I truly can tell you that I truly don't know after the agents, you know, how much the surrogate they have in their hands.

We don't come and ask the agent exactly how much goes for her compensation, exactly how much goes you're doing and I'm doing what I'm doing. I think that's a good thing that you're doing what you're doing and I'm doing what I'm doing. I think that's a good thing that you're doing what you're doing. I think that's a good thing that you're doing what you're doing. I think that's a good thing that you're doing what you're doing and doing what I'm doing. Because you know, you can't look the whole world and say okay I'm going to make it brighter. I cannot deal with all the problems in the world.

We are trying to give them as much as possible. We pay the money for this woman gets life. And now we understand it's not exactly like that. It's not right. I mean, that's real. I think the deep question here, underneath, after everything is over, is when we do a generous thing, like we give people families who couldn't have families before, but that becomes a business, is there something about the business of making a family that is always going to be a

little troubling. And there are no perfect ways to do this. Or is there a way to pull this off in some... I just don't know. I mean like... I still have three more embryos that are in the freezer in Nepal. I don't know if the next time I would not do the process maybe in the state. The US is like an entirely different surrogacy scene which we're just not going to get into here, but the interesting thing that Donna said and ahead of another agency was that they

think that in the next like five to ten years the US will be one of the only countries where surrogacy is still happening. Things are closing down. Most of the things are closing down. So obviously Nepal has a ban, Thailand. It looks like in a few days after this piece comes out that India may ban it for foreigners, Cambodia, there's rumors that they're about to ban it and even in Canada there are talks of new restrictions on surrogacy. And these are bands like not just for same-sex couples, but I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. And the main reason for all these bands and restrictions is as worried about exploiting women. Yeah. I feel weird about that a little bit, though, because if you're trying to...

As we heard, these women are making a business decision. Whether or not we agree with it as an entirely separate thing. They seem like they're making a decision. Then we're going to take it away. In order to protect them, feels... I don't know. It's funny, because it times it also feels... You just think like, okay, these women can decide

how they're going to use their own bodies. Right. It's a little bit like the abortion debate, you know. It totally is. By the same token, it's not wrong for a society to say, hey, there are certain things we just won't allow. We won't give you that choice because we find that the choice itself is wrong. I mean, it's fair, but like one of the arguments

against banning it is that there's still demand for surrogacy and that that's not gonna go away. And so it just pushes this system underground. And so... And that way it's a lot like a question. And then that way it's a lot, you know, shadier. But the other thing was is that then Bercudi actually went and talked to the women about like, what this job does for them.

Like, okay, so it's not the crazy amount of money we thought it might have been, it's $5,000, like what does that do for you? $1,000, like what is that to for you? I guess one woman said, that you know when I get this money, I'm going to go back home and start something on my own. Start a small shop, you know my own little enterprise. All of them wanted to use this money to build a house. You can buy a lot of land in New Delhi for five grand. to build a house. Is it a home car? I think it's a home car. I think it's a home car. Buy some land.

Wait, can you buy a lot of land in New Delhi for 5 grand? You definitely cannot get a lot of land in New Delhi for 5 grand, but what these women do is they take the money and they go back to their original village, and they use it there to buy a small plot of land, and that's totally doable, and it's actually no small feat. Having that ownership of land is so important in our societies in South Asia. Once you own land in South Asia, it raises your socioeconomic status. It's something that's passed down through generations,

so you're creating something for your family. And if you're one of the women that maybe already have land, the thing you can do with that $5,000 is build a house on it. It's a very small mud house, or you know, keep in mind, these women, their day jobs are all made, right? And so they make less than a hundred dollars a month. This is they had it not been for this I mean they would have never I mean probably never owned this much money at a single chance.

But more than that like when you go into this the at least when I went into this the thing that I expected to see was like okay these are poor desperate women that are being forced into this, right? They've been dragged across the border. I think the thing that I was surprised to see when I looked at the transcripts was that even though these women don't have a lot of options and yes, they are poor, they had chosen to do this. Out of the limited options that they had, they looked at them all and they thought like,

this is the thing that I'm gonna do to get what I want. It felt like these women were making a choice. I asked them, what if you were given a chance to go abroad, let's say Dubai or Qatar, because a lot of women from India and Nepal did go there. One of them said that you know,

like, why would I do that? That would be very far away. She says that here, the kids can come, their husbands can visit. They are fed well. The circuits get good medical care. They take care of during the whole nine months. And for those whole nine months, they're sending money back home. And back home, there's one less mouth to feed. I think, you know, the way we pass judgment, you know,

you just pity on these women, but I think they are very aware of what they're doing. They might be exploited to some level, like you said, but it seemed like the women are in some ways, they are in charge of deciding how they want their life to be. And we don't have to look at them with pity. The last woman that Burkudi spoke to, she was a 32-year-old woman from Darjeeling. She spoke in a poly and she told Burkudi, I came here in March. My embryo transfer was done once, but I don't know if it was due to the earthquake or something else, but it didn't get heartbeat and it got washed.

She said that she lost the fetus in two months and they tried it twice on her. I was so happy that I was able to get a lot of money. What did you do? What did you say? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. Do you like it? It felt like it was my own. Okay, back up, right? I will go and eat. And they won't give money if it's unsuccessful.

Wow, wait. I'm like, I didn't know if you miss carry, you don't get paid? Yes, yes, yes. She says it's treated like a business. You get paid for every month, you successfully carry. And if you do lose the baby, depending on where it is in the pregnancy, part of the money is refunded to the intended parents. And most of my friends had successful stories

to share back in Delhi. Some of my friends made successful stories to share back in Delhi. Some of my friends made a house with the money, some bought land. I felt good. She basically says she wishes she had done this earlier, because now with the ban, she was being sent back to her village. She was still weeping a little of what could have been if she was, you know, if the eggs were healthy enough, if a health was alright. Bukudi, will you come again if this opens back up and try again? We'll be there on Wednesday.

Sir, get it. Yes, I will come. There's something on your face that says we're not quite done here. What you want to say. We're done. We're done. No, no, no, say what's on your mind. Well, I'm thinking. I'm thinking about all the different ways we've thought about this story along the way

of making it. I mean, you can read it as like this is a story about the business of family making, the outsourcing of babies. You can hear it as a story about exploitation. All these different things are happening in this story. But it occurs to me that this is also a story about the inventiveness of people in some way or way. What do you mean by that?

I guess what I mean is the way that cultures will cross-fertilize in these really unexplained... Like, okay, like these are two sets of needs that are sort of reaching out and finding each other half a world away. And there's a kind of symbiotic benefit. Even while it's troubling and maybe unfair. But it's still kind of there. And like, so I feel like we can talk about this story in any number of ways, but I also

feel like one of the things that's happened here So this is a story about dreams and about aspiring to have a better life And how in this case those aspirations meet in this really uncomfortable transaction Let's thank people. But that's what we should do next. Let's thank them. Yeah. So many people.

Oh, good. Okay. Well, first we should begin by thanking the Possean Israel story in Maya Kosovere. We have just, we went in deep with those guys for the story. They are in the middle of their first English language season, which is happening right now. Check them out. It's really cool stuff at prx.org and israelestory.org. What was the one you were just telling us about? Oh, I love this one. There's a story that they did last season in which they went to every town in Israel that has a Herzl street. Herzl's, though, like the George Washington of Israel, they all have Herzl streets. They knocked on 48,

because Israel was found in 48. They go knock, knock, who's there? And they open the door and they interview whoever's on the other side of the door. It's just a wonderful, cool idea, and they get to meet a crazy quote of Israelis. Yeah, well, huge thanks to these real story team at the Barry Finkel.

Yeah. And to our reporters in India, the Lange and Obomac, and in Nepal, Bukhudi Rai, and the International Reporting Project for Connecting Us with Porters and Translators in different countries. We talk to a lot of agencies for the story-story agency, Special thanks to Doran Mammut and Dr. Naina Patel. To our translators, Tom Wasserman, Iakeef, Kartik Ravindra, Turner Ray Frans, and Adakar, which is a Nepali community organization out of Richard Queens, and thanks to Ivan Zimmerman.

And for music, special thanks to Nas Gewa and to the Balkan beatbox. We had production help for this story from Andy Mills, and this piece was produced and reported by Molly Webster. I'm Chad Abomrod. I'm Robert Krollwich. I'm Molly Webster. Thanks for listening. Oh, one last note. We should tell you that Talonamir did meet their surrogates very briefly one time.

And it's kind of a cool moment. We couldn't figure out where to put it in this story. But we have that scene on our website at radiolab.org. And it's worth listening to. Janayasim, Bami, Janam, Riyadh, Riyadh, Dambam, Shrwadayayana, Jandam,

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