Radiolab - Escape

Episode Date: August 5, 2022

This episode originally aired in 2012. An all-star lineup of producers — Pat Walters, Lynn Levy, and Sean Cole — bring you stories about traps, getaways, perpetual cycles, and staggering breakthroughs.  We kick things off with a true escape artist — a man who’s broken out of jail more times than anyone alive. Why does he keep running... and will he ever stop? Next, the ingeniously simple question that led Isaac Newton to an enormous intellectual breakthrough: why doesn’t the moon fall out of the sky? In the wake of Newton's new idea, we find ourselves in a strange space at the edge of the solar system, about to cross a boundary beyond which we know nothing. Finally, we hear the story of a blind kid who freed himself from an unhappy childhood by climbing into the telephone system, and bending it to his will. Now sit back, relax and enjoy what we hope will prove to be a welcomed Escape.Episode Credits:Reported and produced by Pat Walters, Lynn Levy, and Sean Cole Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.  

Hey, it's Latif. This week we are rewinding to an episode from about a decade ago before I was actually on staff, but it's an episode I know so well. It's as classic an episode of Radio Love that there is with a cast of all star producers, Pat Walters, Lin Lee, the Sean Coal. Man, it's good. And not only is it a kind of a timeless episode, but it being August, the fact that people are maybe going on vacation or just trying to get out of the heat, you know, people getting

away from their lives, felt kind of a natural rerun to play. So I hope for you that this episode, Escape, helps you slip away from whatever it is you need to slip away from, even if only for an hour or so enjoy Listening to radio lab from W and Y W and Y. STAY! STAY! Card of the everyday routine. Whoever.

Dream of a life of romantic adventure. Want to get away from it all. We offer you... Escaped! What is this? Escaped. Designed to free you from the four walls of today for a half hour of high adventure. Okay, so this is an old-time radio show from the 1940s, late 1940s.

I don't know if I figured that. It's called Escape. It always starts the same way, you know, with... We offer you escape. That phrase. I love how they say it. And here's what's great about this show, and why it seems like a good way to start. This show, our show, is it immediately after they say that phrase?

Yes. They then present you with a scenario from which there seems to be no escape. You are hanging by your fingertips on the sheer face of a nice cliff. Here's one. Suspended a thousand feet above instant death with your strength running out and with no chance for escape. There's some million of this. You are a board of Chinese junk on the ground of the coast of Borneo.

You are lost in the London fog. You are a passenger of the border submarine. You are the subject of an experiment. Not the Asian aimless terror. I can't take the platform to no escape. Wait, one more, and we're just for kicks. You are trapped in the remote valley of the Andes. World in by sheer rock precipitous.

And surrounding you, closing in on you, is a band of blind men to want your eyes. LAUGHTER How could you not listen to that? What is better than like a story where the walls are closing Who wants your life? Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha We offer you three bizarre scenarios, two stories of people and planets trying yearning Will they make it And if they do What are they escaping to? Okay enough of that I'm Jed I'm Robert. This is radio lab and

To start let's talk about escape artists. Because why not, right? I mean, this is an escape show. Exactly. The most famous escape artist in history is probably Harry Houdini. And our first story is kind of a Houdini story. It comes from our producer Pat. Yes.

It's about a guy whose nickname is Little Houdini, right? Yeah. I heard the story from my friend Ben. Hello. Like months ago. How are you, brother? Yeah. I heard the story from my friend Ben. Hello. Like months ago. How are you, brother? Ben, your journalism friend. My journalism friend.

Yeah. I'm a reporter with the Tampa Bay Times. Florida. But our story begins at the turni center penitentiary. And only Tennessee. That's where we caught up with Little Houdini. He was between escapes. He said.

Couple of guards walked us into this huge cafeteria. Sat us down at this little tiny table and brought out Chris. Chris Gay, that's his name. Do you interview him a brother? Yeah, we talk to him come okay. Tari, yeah. I guess the first thing I noticed was he was even smaller than I expected him to be. He's going to be little, you know, nickname.

But he was a very little, we need him. I'm sure a little, maybe 5'5". Yeah, I won 4'1'30". His prison uniform was pretty baggy on him. He was wearing a white ball cap. And he's got a big smile stretch across his face. Scape him. I think it's actually a dickhead, I think. A dickhead? Yeah, I think it is. But I think what's actually a dickage I think. Yeah, I think it is.

But I think what's addictive about it, it's a way to punch you in the stomach and say, hey, this can be done. I can do this. I may not have been a young man to tell me I can do none of my life. More people will love to tell me that. And I know I can do it. How many times have you escaped? Probably about 13. 13? 13? 13?

Out of jail. Yeah. And I'm fortunate to all 13, I made all 13. I did a little research to see how that compares to other Houdinis. And there are a few people who come close. As far as I was able to find out, nobody alive has that many escapes. Could we say pretty safely that he's the greatest jailbreaker alive? I'll go ahead and calm that, yeah. So I got a wife from him and pretty much without even asking Chris began the list of the

escapes. He has escaped every way you can imagine. Slip my hand cup off and with the dire dicks, one out the back in between the ways of what? Jump the fence? Hold on, my clothes off set, my hand cup off with the dire dogs. Went out the back and between the wiser ones, jumped the fan, pulled all my clothes off, set my box of shorts. Like handcuffs. He said picking a handcuff key is one of the easiest things he's ever done. He sure enough.

He's used everything from a pen spring to a safety pen even once. A zipper thing. Might hand-cuff you out, my zipper. He scrambled out windows, ran outdoors, climbed over walls. Snuck under walls, drilled through them. He's faked suicide. Twice. He's tricked the cops by drawing up fake escape plans,

fooled their dogs by covering his clothes and pepper. Bunch of pepper. Another time, he didn't have any pepper, but he had found some roadkill. He's stuck, he didn't smell like a scum. He rubs it all over his body to erase his sense. Pretty good hiding, too. He's had an atrease, jumped down a trap door that he cut the floor of his trailer.

Once he hid in a grave. It was a shallow grave beside a dead body. Another time he ended up on a college campus, someplace outside Atlanta. And he hid out on top of an air duct for two days. He's until the coast is clear. One of the interesting things about Chris is that even though he's been doing this for 20 years,

there's never a record of him assaulting anyone. No. No, I refuse to do it. Stole things, but pretty much only things to help him run. I always refuse to go in somebody's house. I always refuse to go in somebody's garage. He says he got rules from himself about how he breaks the law. Almost like a code.

In fact, the story that got then interested in Chris in the first place is kind of the perfect example of this. This was a few years ago in 2007. Then got a press release. From the Florida Highway Patrol being on the lookout for, you know, Chris Gay. In court, into the press release, here's what happened. Chris had been locked up in Alabama

when he got a telephone call from his family. Said my mom was a, was died. She had cancer. So he faked suicide, busted out of the prison transport van that was bringing to the hospital, stole a truck, and just started driving home. Who's going to see his mom? To pay his last respects.

And Inspector Gleab, very low. As he comes around the bend in the road to where his mom lives, he's driving a Walmart tractor trailer, and he's got like a dozen cops on his tail. When I get down there, I run run it but I run off the road. Crashers truck into a field near his mom's trailer. Jump side of the truck. Just as I was running towards the house they start

jumping out the cars and running toward me. And just before he makes it inside they chase him into the woods. And he disappears. Without seeing his mom, who would end up dying before he could see her. A few days later, Chris turns up in Daytona Beach. Driving a tour bus that belonged to Crystal Gale. Get the country singer? Yeah.

Yeah. He stole Crystal Gale's tour bus? In Tennessee. And then drove it to Florida. Yeah. So you get this press release and you think what? I thought, how do you mess with the story like this? So Ben writes a story for the newspaper?

Big news. And pretty soon? Tonight, a luxury tour bus that normally carries cars. TV news people on it. It took off. He's an escape artist and something of a folk hero. And soon Chris became something of a folk song. Literally.

The week Chris got caught a Grammy award-winning bluegrass picker named Tim O'Brien put out a song called the Ballad of Christopher Daniel Gay. Pretty soon a famous Hollywood director bought the rights to the movie. They were recently trying to get Johnny Hemp to do it but they fit in. It's perfect. You know, here's the underdog making a run for it for what seemed to that's how to be really good intentions. And part of me thought, you know, I mean, this is awesome, but it's also,

I mean, there's got to be more to this story. Absolutely. Who's this guy really? And why does he keep running? Approaching destination on the map. You want to tell us where we're going? Going to Buckeye Bottom Road to talk to Tari Gai. Tari is Chris's older brother. He says he can tell us the whole story about how they grew up. Here we are. Chris grew up in a small trailer out in the middle of nowhere, west of Nashville. There were some junk cars off in the woods.

We find Tyre hanging out with a couple buddies, drinking some beers. We start talking about what it was like when there were kids. We lived in a little bit of trailer down there. He points off into the woods across the street. Don't this land? It was Chris and Tari. Had a little brother named Eddie who went by cotton. And then there was Leanne.

Leanne Gay. The eldest. And his older sister. Cotton's in jail, so we weren't able to interview him. But Leanne and Tari both told us that growing up in that trailer was hard. We grew up like mountain pay. Who were you, no?

No electricity, no running water. Did their wash and the river wasn't always much food around. It used to be a big field of plums, a big plum thicket. We got an anemone. But you can't live on plums. A lot of days we would be hungry. Leanne remembers Lyon Bedwell one night and she couldn't go to sleep because our hunger pangs were so bad and Tari said here this will help you and he ripped up a little dang a notebook Give it to Leanne. He said just chew it up real good and swallow and it'll help you and for Chris and his little brother cotton

Those were the good days Because when my daddy and her separated. Mom and dad got a divorce and the family split apart. Tari and the Ann went to live with Mom. Chris sent his little brother, Eddie. Who were 10 and 11 at that point. Moved in with their dad. Yeah.

And their dad, he really wasn't, you know, I don't guess. He just wouldn't know provider. He wasn't around very much. I mean, he was a deadbeat dad. Yeah. He got where he, he would get off work on Fridays and he wouldn't come home for weeks at a time. He had to tell him to go, if they was hungry, to go, to steal from churches.

Sometimes they'd hike through the woods to their grandfather's house, their mom's dad, who Chris says hated him and his little brother cotton. We would go down there and he got where he started making us fight each other. And if we fiestowed each other, and the winter got some deep, that's, you know, he was me. So that was their life beating each other up for food. He had dogs, he had sickies dogs almost. So one night, one of them went and found their dad's rifle, an old 22.

And a tube sock full of rusty bullets and went out behind the barn, lit a tire fire, and made a suicide pact. Cotton was going to shoot Chris in the forehead and then shoot himself. And Chris closed his eyes and cotton put the gun to Chris's forehead. Chris heard him whimper and he opened his eyes and caught and said, I can't do it. And Chris said, well, let me do it. He took the gun and he put the barrel to his brother's head and he couldn't pull the trigger either.

And they were 10 and 11 at this point? 10 and 11. Man. And Ben says, if you take a step back, you can see that it's right about here at this point that Chris and his brothers start to steal, like really steal. They started that like, it's a little bicycles

and then they went to, I guess, four whillers and motorcycles. There's all stuff with wheels. Yeah. Chris remembers going with cotton to sit on a bluff. Yeah, it was on Interstate 40. We would go wash trucks, go buy. And they would dream about getting in a semi and driving far away.

And then they went to, I guess, four whittlers and motorcycles and cars and they gradually got bigger and bigger and bigger. To one day when Chris was 17, he stole a semi. Didn't even really know how to drive it. But I climbed up inside it, the keys was in it. So I started it up. And from there, there was really no looking back. Can I pause you right there before you continue? Let me just name some modes of transportation.

And you tell me yes or no, what you're selling. A semi. bulldozer yes skid steer tractor backhoe anything that's the flies I actually got in helicopter once and we got in there started flipping switches and we finally got we got the blades were rotate but it was at a low low thing we got scared and got out of it point is this is his life for more than two decades Feeling things that move getting caught and escaping stealing things that move getting caught and escaping To eventually he became that guy on TV a little who Dini who has police on the run and six states

But then one night Something happened that seemed like it might break this loop forever He met a girl. Yes. Yes. His name was Missy. She was waiting tables at a little campsite diner. He thought she was cute.

And Missy. He just moved talk or I'll give him that. Yeah. She liked the way he talked. And I was taking right off the bat. A few months later. I got pregnant with my daughter and made him We didn't together and for a while

Life was really good. We still had a little money in the bank and I was working good for a regular Instruction had a good paying job running the bulldozer and I was actually going to school in Lebanon to get my city Our license. We had a nice trailer and it had a refrigerator. Did you like it? Yeah, I really liked it. Matter of fact, I was talking about daughter last night. It came real close with my daughter. She remembers it like it was yesterday. He got her a dog.

She named him Blackjack. First puppy, she ever got. Right there was the... It was the best moments and days of... The happiest days of my life. I think the most of his life. I ever heard that. I think. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I ever heard that.

I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life.

I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life.

I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his life. I think the mind of his something. I stole the bobcat tractor. From a construction job. I sold it. And to make ends meet. As soon as she heard that Missy whipped her head around. And I like hitting with a big Mac right in the middle of Nashville on I-24. A big Mac.

Yes, I did. But it was only funny for a little while. A couple days later. Somebody told on me, I'm tired. But it was only funny for a little while a couple days later somebody told on me I got arrested and he stayed in jail for about two years and then escaped I don't know how exactly before long he stole again and ended up back in jail again and Missy at stayed by aside again She she was determined he'd come home from these escapes saying, I just had to be locked up. He'd been away from you guys. He wouldn't be away from my

kids and I didn't want to be away from me. He's telling me got locked up. Missy would write him letters. I would send him money because I worked the whole time. I was pregnant with my 13 year old. What kind of work were you doing? Worked on a sand in line, standard rocking chairs. Chris meanwhile was thinking about his next escape. And when he came charging through the front door, he was thinking of Roadkill, telling Missy that again he had escaped.

I stayed with him. Again. But this time, I started asking for checkstubs on a weekly basis and adding hours up that he'd been gone from time he left the house, which I would knock down right in time there and from. You were keeping tabs on it. Yes, I was.

She went so far as to take $5,000 out of the banking account that they shared by a trailer for them to live in, one that wouldn't move. You know, I was trying more or less to make him do right. And it seemed like it was working. But then one night, Chris came in after work and sat down in the living room with Missy and their daughter to watch some TV. Next day we know we heard a loud beating at the door. Well you know I jump up and he jumps up and next day I know he was you know moving that kitchen table and sliding it out. Next thing I know

he raises the rug up off the floor and he jumps down and then he says cover it back up so I cover it back up put the table back and answer the door and they came in and they walked all around the house and they left. So you bought this house to keep him still and he'd cut a trap door in it. Yep. He stayed up on his front of the whole time they were walking over top of him. door in it. Yep. He was stayed up on his front of the whole time. They were walking over top of him. Wow. Yeah, I guess it was more or less I was young, I knowed, but I was also in denial. But eventually something happened that kind of forced her to admit, just how bad things it got in with Chris. Day before Halloween, then you know, and her daddy had went down to Walmart and she had picked out a little witch outfit. Because she was old enough, and then you know, she was

four. You know, trickle-treating for a four-year-old, that was a big thing. The next morning, it's Halloween. Her daddy looked at it and said, well, baby, I'm going to work. I'll see you this afternoon. You know, I get home, well, get your outfit on,

and you will go trickle-treating up in Nashville. And that afternoon, Daniel was sitting on the back step, and she was just sitting there in a white t-shirt and I asked her, is that Danielle, what are you doing? I was like, no, my daddy, get home, mama. He said, we're going to go to Nashville and we're going to go trick or treat him. So, okay, he'll be back in a little bit and she's sat there and she's sat there. And he never came home that night.

And he never came home that night. You, um, I don't really hear like, I don't hear a lot of bitterness from you. No. Is that accurate? Yes. Why? Well, as far as maybe an upset with Chris or hating Chris? Yes, ma'am. Is that what you're asking me? Yes ma'am. How could you not forgive Chris? 18 years. That's how long I've known that boy. And I have seen firsthand where he lived,

how he lived. I'm a fighter. I go to church. My kids go to church. I learn to forgive people. And Chris has had a hard life. He needs help. Help that I can't give him. Well. You thought for a while that you could give him that help.

Yes, I did. I should have been there for my kids. It took a lifetime of making this up. You know, making up what I've done. So what do you make of this story, Pat? Well, somewhere along the way for Ben and I, this story really became about the simple question, can a person like Chris, you know, grew up the way he did? Can a person like that change?

Or do you just never escape a child like that? People live with how they grew up. Yes, Missy, she says. If two kids and a wife that he loves, if we can't stop him, I don't know what can. But when we asked Chris, he said, it's in my mind, I'm going to change, and I'm not only going to change,

I'm working to change. Really? Of course he has said that before. Truthfully? What's different this time? You know, I'm doing places that don't have to take, I'm taking every one of them. I'm taking how to be a better take, I'm taking every one of them. I'm taking how I'm taking

how to be a better deity, I'm taking everything. If I, if I, when I come up for Pro this month, I'm gonna ask him, can I go ahead and complete another nine month problem. Wait is he saying he's gonna ask them to keep him in jail? Yeah, it's a 20 years of running. He's asking the Pro board not to let him go. Which made me think, I don't know, maybe. And Ben, what do you think? I don't think there's any way that Chris changes. I think he's, you know, unfortunately doomed to stay in the cycle.

Which sucks, you know, I'm sort of ashamed that I have that opinion. Why? I mean, why do you think you feel that way? I mean, my dad was pretty similar to Chris in many ways. Really? My father abandoned me when I was a young boy. And I got reacquainted with him when I was a teenager. At that point he was a very sad alcoholic who often made big mistakes. And I played high school football. And near the end of the year, my senior year year they put out this highlight tape. So I took that highlight tape to his trailer in Slick Oklahoma and after

shooting a lot of tequila we sat down on the couch together and I put the tape in and we were watching you know watching me play football and not long into it my dad starts sobbing just bawling tears running down his face. And I look over at him and he says, I wish I could have been there. And I wanted nothing more in that moment. And today, then to ask him, why weren't you? And I think in some way, I get that opportunity and this job to ask my dad that question.

Ben says his dad never answered that question. And after that day, where they watched that football tape, nothing changed. Ben got older, graduated from college, got married, had kids, and his dad never showed up for any of it. So he says, when he's talking to a guy like Chris. In some ways, I'm sitting across the table from my own father, which doesn't give him a lot of hope. The only ounce of encouragement that I have, honestly, is if we find out that Chris has indeed, when given the chance to get out of jail, said, no thank you, maybe that gives me an ounce

of hope. And a couple weeks ago, Ben got a letter from Chris. Can you just stay? Can you read it for me? Yeah. Uh, he says, Dear Mr. Montgomery, thank you for your letter. I'm doing well. I went up for parole, and yes, I did ask them to let me go through the program. The final decision was to parole me upon completion of the program.

I will complete it in October 4, 2012. So we stay. Well I better get this in the mail. Thank you again for writing. I hope to hear from you again. Your friend, Christopher Daniel Gay. Thanks to our producer Pat Walters. And to Ben Montgomery, his story on Christopher Daniel Gay is in the Tampa Bay Times, which you can find online. And we've got a link to it from our website, radiolab.org.

We will return to escape in just a moment. Hey, I'm Chad Abelmrod. I'm Robert Crowewitch. This is Radio Lab and today... We are for you! SK! SK! We're talking about escape. Stories about people being trapped and then getting out, getting free.

And in our last segment, we met a guy for whom the escape itself became a trap. But now, we're going to take our escape motif to a much bigger scale. Yeah. And we're calling this, by the way, the outer limit. Because in this one, we're going to the outer limits of the human imagination. We began for us when we spoke with this writer. Yes, I hear you're booming.

And Dolnick is his name, and he told us a story about... So this is Isaac Newton's story for the most part. And it's a story that involves the Earth, the Heaven's God, humanity, and you might as well throw in the apple. The one thing everybody knows about Newton is that an apple fell from a tree and barmed him on the head. Which isn't true, I was told, right? Isn't that apocryphal?

It's probably not true, but it's a story that Newton himself told. Oh, really? Because Newton, according to Ed? All his life had this notion that he was different from other people Not only different from but but better. He had a pipeline to God. God was whispering secrets the secrets of creation into his ear No one else had been blessed in this way Other people's role in life was simply to to bog him down Not what I would call the most modest guy. No, but at any rate

Our story begins around 1665. Newton is at Cambridge. He's a student. And Cambridge is hit by the plague. They send everybody home because although nobody understands how the disease works, they know that if people are crowded together, they tend to all get it. So everybody go your separate ways. This is a kind of an enforced summer vacation.

Oh, right. And he's like 19 or 20 at this point. 21, 22. Okay. Newton goes home to his mother's farm. Mom is like, cool. Now you can help me on the farm, but he says, uh, no. Because he has a plan. He brought some books home. A bunch of of textbooks. And he locks himself in his room and sets himself not only to having mastered all the science that had ever been done, but to plunging on ahead of everyone else on his own, motivated by this religious faith that everything in

the universe was set up by a god who wanted someone to crack the code. Newton believes he's the one doing what was he doing in his room? I mean, was he sitting there in like with a thousand giant textbooks? All that's known is that he did this. He just went into his room and came out with, what we're about to talk about. He came out with how gravity works, how light works, how rainbows work, how the tides work, and then having done all the summer, he did all this.

Yeah. What did you do on your summer vacation, Jett? I know, Mike, my summer, I learned how to fold sheets like Marines do, which I thought was pretty good too. Right. So after having one flash of insight after another Newton now sets his mind to one of the great problems of all time, which for our purposes we will call the problem of the moon. And just to set this up.

What everybody before Newton and Galileo thought is there were a bunch of ordinary things here on Earth, like rocks, and they behave in the ordinary way that we know. You know, pick a brock, let go. It falls. And there are a bunch of much more different, mysterious, elegant, perfect things in the sky. Like the moon, which doesn't fall, it just floats there. So one could conclude that the moon has its own separate set of laws.

There were one set of laws that work here on Earth, and another set that work in the heavens, and there's no reason it should be the same set of laws, and any more than New York's laws should be the same as Paris's laws. Kind of makes sense, actually, heavily things float, earthly things fall. But then here's where the problem begins. Newton and a bunch of people at that time had gotten a hold of this newfangled thing called a telescope. And one of the things they saw was that the moon wasn't this mysterious

heavenly body that they seem. It was a big rock, a regular lumpy potato-wish rock. Uh-oh. People were like, hmm. But Newton being, of course, Newton thought, now wait a second. If the job of a rock is to fall and if the moon is just another rock. Why doesn't it fall down? Exactly so. What's it doing sitting up there night after night?

Good question. And it's at this point that Newton sitting in his room or wherever he was, we can imagine, makes a crazy mental leap. He thought back to a little thought experiment that Galileo had come up with, which initially might not make much sense, the connection. But it pays off. And here's the setup.

You've got someone standing in a big field with a gun that he's about to shoot. And next to that person with his gun is a person holding in his hand a bullet. So you've got a person holding a gun and a person holding just a bullet side by side. The bullet in the hand and the bullet in the gun are exactly the same height above the ground. And now somebody says, ready, aim, fire.

And at the instant he says fire, the man with the gun shoots that bullet horizontally. And at that same instant, the man next to him holding the bullet in his hand opens his hand and the bullet drops. So there's one bullet sipping along and then falling and then the other one just falls. Right. We shoot the bullet out of the horizontal gun and we drop the bullet from right next to the gun. At the same time. Yes, both bullets will hit the ground eventually, but when they do they'll be fire-part. And Galileo's riddle was which of those bullets hits the ground first. Well, I mean, everybody would know that the one that would hit the ground first is the one that you just dropped because the other one has to go all that...

So this is a hard real, and the answer is... Well, wait, why is it such a hard riddle? Because I would think that the bullet you drop is just gonna hit first. The gun's gotta go all the way. No, those two bullets both hit the ground at the exact same instant. Really? That's an experimental fact. The bullet from the gun and the bullet from the gun is lands at the same time?

Yes, this bullet that shot horizontally, it doesn't go like Wiley Coyote running off a cliff. It doesn't go straight, straight, straight, straight, and then fall. It's curving as it goes. And the thing that causes it to curve as it goes of course is gravity. It's the same gravity that is pulling the bullet that you drop. Same gravity, same pull, same speed. So counterintuitively when you drop a bullet and it falls for this long, When you fire the gun, it'll also fall for that long. Even though it ends up a mile away.

See, that was Galileo's riddle. And that's as far as Galileo took it. Newton looked at that and he said something smart. First thing he said is, okay, this field, let's not pretend that this is some perfectly flat field that goes on forever. No, we're on the Earth, and the Earth is round. And what round this means is that the ground curves away below horizontal. So really what's happening is that as the bullet is shooting across the field and falling to the Earth,

the Earth at the same time is very gradually curving away from it. Now, of course, most guns, you you know they don't shoot the bullet very far and at that short distance feel the still pretty much flat. But here's what Newton thought, what if you could find just the right gun that could shoot that bullet not just across the field but across like thousands of miles and? What if? As it falls that bullet curves down towards the earth in

just the same way as the earth is curving away from it in this scenario the bullet that we've shot will keep falling and falling and falling but the earth keeps falling and falling and falling away from the bullet so the bullet falls forever the earth curves forever the picture never changes so the bullet then does what the bullet then does what? The bullet is in orbit. Buzzer. Buzzer. Hundreds of years before Sputnik and other satellites,

Newton has invented the satellite. And on top of that, he said, when we see rocks like the moon that are not falling, the reason we think they're not falling is because we misunderstand. Really just as the gun launched a bullet on Earth, and it goes and never falls, God who is presumably a terrifically strong pitcher, launched the moon around the earth at just such a rate that that would continue in its circle around us forever. This is a perpetual dance. The partners are bound together but they never come close and they never break up

either. It's this endless round. From which there is no escape. What this does, what Newton did, is take the moon out of the domain of poets and musicians the golden orb and this kind of thing. And last so it, to the same rules that we use here on Earth. In other words, what he showed, is it in a very real way. There's no separation between us and the heavens. The same set of laws does govern everything. It's one universe, and I've explained it all.

Once you figure out the laws of gravitation, then you can send spacecraft to Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, anywhere, out there. If you're a radio lab listener from Wayback, you might recognize that voice. That's Androian. Hi. One of the first stories we did actually, I interviewed her about working on the famous golden record. You remember this?

Sure. So the idea at the time was to put this record on the Voyager capsules, send it in the space, and on the record would be all of these sounds that represented, you know, us. Kiss. A mother's first words to her newborn baby. Oh, come on. I don't think I'm good. Mozart.

Ah. In any case, Anne was the one who was in charge of choosing all the sounds to put onto that record. She and Carl Sagan worked together on that project, and here's the thing. We stopped our story as the rockets took off, but obviously that was just the beginning of the story, and the Voyager capsules right now are about to make a kind of escape that Newton could have only dreamed of. Okay.

The record thing. And our producer, Lume Levy, has been... Oh, sorry, I just turned my headphones up way too late. Has been following the story. Uh-oh. Yeah, just turned it down. Yeah. Okay, so pick it up where we left it.

Okay, so like in the point of the mission wasn't really to deliver this record, it was to go out and look at all the planets in the outer solar system. So starting in 1977, these two little spaceships, two spacecraft, Voyager 1 and 2, went racing away from Earth, snapping pictures. And so every time Voyager would reach another planet, you know, all of the Voyager

people would get together. Go into the imaging room and see the pictures come from the outer solar system. Do you remember seeing them? I remember as a child saying, life magazine, you know, I was seven when the Voyager was launched. So this is Merat. I'm Merat Ofer, Professor at Boston University. As a grown-up, she became part of the Voyager team. All the pictures that you know as a kid, you look at the books and just say, what, how napton look, how jupiter look. You know, just complete revelation, Saturn.

The image of Saturn, technique color, pink and like reddish, turquoise color, yellow, and those rings rings Just spectacular. They could see active volcanoes on one of the moons of Jupiter. Finally that vision of Neptune Oh, this like blue jewel Really blue. It's all came from Voyager. We had no idea how they look like before Voyager Neptune was the last big cool planet, and it was the last thing they were supposed to photograph. After that, the cameras were going to be shut off to save energy, but Cal Seigen convinced them

to turn Voyager back to Earth and take a final picture. So on Valentine's Day, 1990, one of the ships slowly rotated, so it was facing back to Earth. And it snapped a picture. One last picture. Describe it. So it's mostly empty. It's pretty dark. You can see sort of streaks of light coming from the sun. And then you honestly wouldn't notice it if it wasn't pointed out to you. But down in one corner, kind of suspended in a sunbeam. There is a very small dot blue, a pale blue dot.

That with us. In Carl Sagan's words, everyone you ever knew, everyone you ever loved, every superstar, every corrupt politician, just everyone in all of history, everything is some total. Think of the rivers of blood that have run, so that one indistinguishable group could have a momentary domination over a fraction of that pixel. It was one of those really rare images. Every single day I hear from people who take that pale blue dot. So deeply to heart, it was a complete reframing.

After that, the camerasas were turned off. But here's the thing. The ships kept going, going, going, going, going, drifting through the darkness. Going, going, going, going, going. Even though they weren't taking pictures anymore, they were using like, there are other senses, little instruments that detect like, how many particles are around, what the temperature is. So they were hurtling through this

empty space really fast, measuring, sending that data back, and scientists like Badov were there listening and waiting. For what? Was not clear. But they knew at some point these capsules would get to the edge. The edge of what? The solar system. The solar system has an edge. I thought it was just a big spiral. It has an edge. It's like a bubble. See, the sun has a wind.

Every star has a wind, but the sun has its own wind. It blows out through the solar system. It's very fast and can be between 400 to 800 kilometers per second. Anyway, it blows out from the sun, past all the planets, and it keeps everything else out. Oh, so it's like, blowing up a balloon? Yeah, exactly. The wind gives it a shape, right?

So these little things are cruising out towards this edge, wherever it is. Scientists don't quite know where it is or what it is. The guys in the control room are like, ping in the ships and like, hey, what's up, what do you see? The ships are like, nothing. What about now?

Not much, no, nothing. And how long before they actually see something? 14 years. Oh, man, that's like driving through Kansas, but like a million times worse. But there comes a day, end of 2004, where they've stopped listening for a little while because the antenna not only has so many antennas and they have to use them to listen to everything.

So for a little while the Voyager team is like, okay, you guys over there can use the antennas we're going to launch. Yeah, I mean, it's not like anything's happening. Nothing's happening anyway, it's been 14 goddamn years. Knock yourself out. You guys, it's cool. And they come back a few hours later, start listening again. And it's happened very sudden. Everything is totally chained.

Really? All of a sudden? The speed of the wind dropped from around 380 kilometers per second to 100. Instantly, like just all the more. Instantly. And then everything out there started to get messy. Very topoland. Much more topoland and before particles are also behaving a very different way and the fields are very weird.

The fields. The magnetic field. So just like the sun has a wind, the sun has a magnetic field as well. The field starts at the sun and then curves out in this kind of graceful arc through the solar system. And how the sun rotates create what people call by lauina skirt. You know how like a skirt will flare

if you spin around real fast? That's apparently kind of what this field looks like. But way out there, it seemed like the skirt had started to fray. Maybe tear a little. Threads had broken off and seemed to be floating around on their own, not connected to anything. So what does this all mean? I mean if the fields are breaking down and the wind is dying down,

and you said the wind is what actually creates the space of the solar system, does this mean we're out? No. I kind of thought that was what was happening, but no, it's not out and it's not quite in. It's in the edge of the bubble. It's in the edge. But bubble. It's in the edge. Yeah, but it's not like a little thin edge.

It's a thick edge. So the edge isn't just a little line that you cross at the place. Yeah. And while we listened, the two voyagers' ships moved through this edge for several years. Then something very interesting happened, that wind on Vajawon stopped. Like completely stopped? Yeah. So now we're out?

No, no. I mean, this is what people thought. But the other measurements, like temperature and number of particles, the magnetic field, doesn't tell us that we are out of the bubble. Nature surprised us again. So now we think there's a place at the edge of our solar system. Right, at the edge, edge of the edge. That's utterly still, no wind at all.

A pause. People are calling it a stagnation layer. And there is a big discussion why this layer exists and how thick it is. And by how thick it is she means when will it end? Because once we get past this, so has anything ever crossed this boundary before? No, this would be the first man-made object to leave any star. And Voyager was like right there smelling, touching that boundary. You know, you only do those things first once. Like your first kiss.

And your first taste of alcohol. Your first time driving a car. The first time you see the ocean. These things open up a whole new world. First time out of the solar system. So when is it gonna freaking happen? It might have happened while we were talking. Da!

We're thinking from now, any moment now, next couple of months or three years from now, four years from now. It's close. Every day, I open my Google Alert for Voyager, and I look and see, did it happen today? Do you really? Because if it happens before the show goes out, I'm gonna be pissed, yeah. Every day I open my Google Alert for Voyager and I look and see did it happen today Do you see if it happens before the show goes out and we pissed yeah every day Yeah, it's the first thing you do in the morning. Oh, all right, good like the third thing This is Lula now. So it's been years since that piece first aired and Muraf did it cross over? Did it? It did. It did. It was 25th of August 2012, the Voyager One Cross.

Wow, so it was just a one month after that. It was really, really close. And what did it find? So it's still. It's still? Yeah. All the particles that come from the sun disappeared. It's really like an edge.

And then you're entering to the realm of interstellar medium that is, you know, the stuff that comes from other stores. If you could put it in sound, you will see a lot of turbulence and then when you cross the edge, it's much quieter. So it did find an even deeper quiet? Right, right, yeah. I do really like to just think about and imagine that little spacecraft out there floating in the stillness in that silence. Hey, I'm Chad Abumarhan. I'm Robert Crowley.

This is Radio Lab and today we're talking about escape And in this last story I have a feeling that this guy actually does kind of make it through this is a true. Yeah, I think he does honest Escape, but he does it in the most original and most unusual way here with the story is our producer Sean Cole So the story starts in the late 50s. There was this little boy in Richmond, Virginia named Joe and Grecia, Jr. He's seven or eight years old, and he's just sitting at home,

dialing various numbers on his parents' telephone, just to see what happens. He was on a long distance call to information, 5551212 and a just an area code. This is Phil Lapsley, I first heard Joe's story from him. And he heard very faintly in the background atone2 and a just an area code. This is Phil Lapsley, I first heard Joe's story from him. And he heard very faintly in the background a tone and he just started whistling along with it.

And all of a sudden he heard a critique and the call went away. And it turns out that the tone in the background of the phone and his corresponding whistle was 2600 Hertz. Musically it's about 7th octave E. So he has perfect pitch? Yeah, and he was weirdly smart. As you'll soon discover. Anyway, he thinks to himself,

that's very odd. Well, that happened once. I wonder if it could happen again. Does it again? He didn't even really know exactly what it was at the time. But he does it again. And again.

He didn't think it was particularly useful for anything. He does talk about walking past somebody at a pay phone when he was seven or eight years old and whistling this tone and having the phone at the phone call disconnect on the person. Wow, that's amazing. Superpowers. That really is.

Yeah, which means he could be a little walking bomb. He could go to Grand Central Station where there are many people sitting in phone booths and he could make them all lose their phone calls. Yeah, and no one would know all lose their phone call. Yeah. And no one would know. Right, but it was more than just a cool trick for him. This discovery was the beginning of a kind of escape.

Oh, were you scared out when you were little? I've got something scared to put those things that scared me. That's Jim. I don't remember how old I was, but... It's all we have left of him, in fact. He died in 2007. But he left behind hours and hours of recordings of his voice, phone recordings.

And as he listened to them... That was afraid. You know, something might have been blown out in the bed with talent to put something to floor and... You pretty quickly realized that the little boy in that room who was playing with the phone Something might have lagged long out of the bed with town to put something to the floor and get to. You pretty quickly realized that the little boy in that room who was playing with

the phone, he was kind of desperate. Really? He went to this Catholic school for the blind. Was he blind? He was born blind. And when he was there,

back in the fall of 1955, things got pretty bad. A lot of the nuns whipped me in my sister really hard, you know, and shook us. Only one did the touchable abuse. She used to have me get on the table. Then she would get up on the table and lie down. She did the bad touching.

Things were pretty bad at home too. Daddy would slam mother and her and break things and make me lots of scary sounds and stuff at night. at home too. Tom and the dial tone that was always there. It was a nice warm tone that never yelled, never fought. What a wonderful thing to telephone is. It would just stay a nice way for him to comfort himself. It's a very good long night. And so how did exactly did the whistling thing he was doing? How did that help him?

Yeah. Well, it takes a few steps to explain, but it turns out that that tone was the key word in a hidden mechanical language that controlled the phone system. He wasn't supposed to be able to hear it at all, in fact. It was an internal signal, probably bleeding over from another line.

And when a long distance line was idle, when there was no call on it, this tone would be being played continuously. Basically, the tone means that the line is free, and silence on the line means there's someone trying to make a call. So say you're in New York and you wanna call L.A. You pick up your phone.

The circuit's got this tone on it, marking the circuit as idle. Dile the L.A. number, and at that point, your line takes away the tone for just a moment. It goes silent. And LA goes, ah! New York wants to make a phone call. And then LA drops its tone, and the New York and LA machines talk to each other. So that's one discovery. Another discovery is that you can dial a phone by just tapping

the hook switch, that little button where you hang up. Tap that three times, dial the number three, seven times, dial the number seven. And so then Joe thought, wait, pulse his tones. Maybe if you were to make a little bursts of tone, so something like, as Joe demonstrated on a web show called haxer radio If you were to do something like that, maybe you can actually dial a call Are you whistling that for a while? And you could That's exactly how the phone system used to send calls back and forth that was its language That's right Joe learned how to speak telephone.

Which was amazing. I mean, I think that's amazing. But isn't he just dialing the phone with his lips as opposed to using his fingers? Yes. True. But Joe made one more little discovery that would change his life forever.

See, if you first dialed a number like long distance information, 5551212. The telephone company doesn't charge for calls for information. So what he figured out was that once you get the operator on the line, if you then whistled to disconnect, but only for a little bit, only for a second or two. The line nearly disconnects, but it doesn't all the way. It just sits in this kind of limbo waiting for instructions waiting to be used, huh? And you can...

We route your call by whistling the digits you wanted to dial and make a free call. Because the phone company, again, thinks that you're still connected to information and it's not charging you for that. It was like having an unlimited plane ticket to anywhere. Joe could call anywhere he wanted for free. This is a telecom announcement. And explore. The number you have called is not connected. Listen.

I am to answer that. And so he started calling all over the world, even broken number numbers, just to hear the different voices. Please check the number people calling again. I used to do this, by the way. Did you really? My sister and I would get on the phone. We could call information. That was a free service. And we said hello information. Can you please contact us with Toronto? And then we get the Toronto operator. And then we say, Toronto, could you please get us in contact with Churchill Ontario, which was way up north?

Then the Churchill lady would come on. I'd say, could you please put us in charge with Ontario which was way up north, then the traditional lady would come on and say, could you please put us in charge with Ignition New York, which is some Inuit place. I made it transfer you to the North and his place. We would be talking to a person in the Arctic for nothing. Wow. It was the sense of

like going long distance for free. Now imagine you're a blind kid doing that in an abusive home. You can't even run away. I think the phone represented freedom. It represented a place that was under his control. He could be an expert in it. You know, it was a place that he could do all sorts of things that maybe he wasn't so easily able to do in real life.

So what happens next? So things get a little bit better for Joe as he gets older. His mom takes him out of the Catholic school once she finds out that the nuns are beating him. He never told his parents about the sexual abuse. He gets more and more savvy with the phone, and then finally he goes off to the University of South Florida where he starts showing off. It started out that Joe told a student that he could whistle a free phone call and the

students said, no, you can't. He said, want a bet. So they bet a dollar and Joeler a long distance call for him. And before long, there were crowds of 40 kids who were following him around wanting to see him do this parlor trek. And then he whistled up this one particular fateful call. He was trying to whistle somebody in New York,

which is area code 516. But instead, he'd wound up in Canada, which is 514. You can see if your whistling calls, you could easily get off by one or two beeps. So he wound up talking to an operator in Canada, and the operator in Canada put his call through to New York, but then actually managed to listen to the call, and then the student was talking about the Whiz kid who put the call through to him for him, and telephone company security ended up tracing it back to University of South Florida. It was just a gossipy operator who told on him.

Well, gossipy or security conscious depending on how you view it. Fun ruining, that's how I view. So Joe's busted. He nearly gets kicked out of school and the whole thing causes just enough of a stir that people find out. The local school newspaper wrote an article about it, and it got picked up by a wire service. Next thing you know, there are newspaper articles and publicity and... Here's the weird thing, as news travels.

Did you see this article about the blind kid in Florida who can do this? It turns out Joe wasn't alone. There were all of these other Joe and Bressie is out there. Hacking the phone system too. 2-1-2-3-9-6. You mean I'm not the only one? You mean there are other people who are interested in this as well? They weren't.

Whistling. Some of them would use these little machines called the blue boxes that would make the tones. A couple of kids actually modified a toy whistle from a box of Captain Crunch. And because Joe got caught, they all started to find out about each other. That really ended up being the focal point for a whole generation of phone freaks. This is NBC Nightly News.

Phone what? Phone freaks. Phone freaks will tell you, phone freaking began with a blind young man named Joe and Gressia. One thing he discovered was that he could whistle his own calls. And before long, people are actually calling Joe and Gressia and a network starts to form.

Then the phone freak started finding broken vacant number recordings. So for example, you dial a non-working number and you get the usual telephone company recording. But it turns out some of those were broken in such a way that the volume level was very low, and if multiple people called the same number, they could talk. Teenage kids would call in and turn into a party line, kind of an annoying one, because you had this announcement that was repeating every 30 seconds. But it still allowed Teenage kids to talk to one another. Wow, so this is it. repeating every 30 seconds. But it still allowed teenage kids to talk to one another. Wow, so this is it.

I mean, he found his tribe basically, yeah. And he would call the conference lines and talk with them about phones and freaking and everything. But that really wasn't what he was after. And I think it's an interesting thing because, so say you're a lonely kid and you start playing around with the phone or you start playing around with Scrabble or whatever it is. You get really obsessed about something, right?

Through the magic of that thing, you end up meeting other people. You sort of have a choice to make at that point. Choice one is embrace the community. Choice two is, well that's nice. It's great that there are other people and I get some stuff from that, but you know, I found this thing, my telephone, my Scrabble set, whatever it is I'm obsessed by and I'm still obsessed by it. And it seems to me like he sort of made the choice to go for the thing.

It's not that he didn't like the community, but he was still searching for something. That's Quire magazine, 1971. March of 1971 is when he moved to Memphis. Reporter, in that month he had done very little long distance phone freaking from his own phone. He had begun to apply for a job with the phone company. Yeah, he went there intending to get a job and be a man as he put it. And he wanted to stay away from anything illegal. In Grecia, quote, any kind of job will do.

Anything as menial as the most lowly operator. That's probably all they'd give me because I'm blind. He wanted to be a telephone man. He wanted to take his lunch box to work. He wanted to get a paycheck. He wanted to be a real person like everybody else. This is Stephen Gip, one of Joe's best friends. He lived in a couple places.

The first one was just imagine Skid Row. I mean, it was, you know, he woke up one morning when the heat went out and he stepped on a dead frozen rack because he had ended up sleeping in his coat. I mean, you know, you know, he woke up one morning, when the heat went out, he stepped on a dead frozen rack because he hadn't ended up sleeping in his coat. I mean, you know, that's all he could afford. And he can't get arrested in Memphis. You know, he can't get a job to save his life, so he decides to get arrested, literally.

By doing this very, very elaborate public freak where he gets a bunch of his freaking friends on a conference call and he starts dialing up for an embassies, like the armed services in Moscow, and pretended that he was calling as a radio host and that all of his friends were his studio audience. Hi, this is, you know, so and so from this radio show, do you have time to talk and be on the air with us today? Oh, great.

Because he wanted to stay on the phone line so that the phone company could trace him, because he says they're not really speedy. You know, he wanted to give him a lot of time to catch him. Two weeks later, when he walked out the door and the FBI came up and said, Joseph and Resia. Why did he do this? Because he was trying to get the phone company pay attention. That's right. That's right.

In the hopes that he would get a free meal in jail or... No, in the hopes that he would get a job. With the phone company. That's right. What a hopes that he would get a free meal in jail? Or... No, in the hopes that he would get a job. With the phone company. That's right. What a weird way to go about it. And amazingly, it worked. Oh. Really?

Yeah. He got four job offers. All phone jobs. So you got a job with a little independent Millington telephone company. And you started cleaning telephones. Anything from cleaning phones to servicing equipment. Any kind of job will do.

But any kind of job wouldn't do. You really didn't like it. It's that kind of thing where you realize your lifelong dream and then you think, Wait, I can dream anything I want. I can dream bigger than this. And so in 1975 and 1976, whatever, he moved to Denver.

Denver, where every dream is in reach. Paid for by the committee to promote Denver. He started hot nabbing with all the telephone guys and going to the public utilities commission and that's when he started working for Mountain Bell. Mountain Bell telephone. And that's when he started freaking for the man. And so he worked as a network troubleshooter. And at this point he had such an intimate knowledge of all the little clicks and pops of the

phone system that he could tell from those noises what was going on in the network, how your call was being routed, if there was a problem somewhere along the line what the problem was. Maybe even where it was. Wow. Strictly from listening. Strictly from listening. This was listening to the dial tone times near fauna. Now it should go through. And he demonstrated his powers on the New York radio station WBAI. There was a show called off the hook.

They're good old made Now just to click Now it'll answer briefly That's a good ol' thing. Errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr A little bit, always drops off on number five, ESS, I forgot. Wow, he's like a Jedi master. Yeah, he's made it. Yeah. And so he quit. What? He gave up the job for his friend. But it sounds like he finally got what he wanted.

I think, like, he became the master of the world that he had escaped into. But he never really dealt with the world that he had escaped from. Meaning what? with the world that he had escaped from. That little boy, that broken little boy that he was, still needed a kind of fixing in a way that wasn't going to be, you know, no job is really going to solve that. So... It's my turn. He moves to Minneapolis on June 12th,

because 612 was Minneapolis's area coach and he basically becomes a kid again. You know just everything you did from that point on other than his phone had to do with children. He'd visit with children who were terminally ill. He'd just visit with children in general. I've got a recording at home. In fact, I was listening to it last night before he came to the interview. I was laughing and giggling because all these little girls were coming up and they were saying, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, hi, I'm going to hear the parents in the back saying, don't sit on his toys and You know he actually started talking about little little more to me you know about his being abused and You know missing out on his childhood and he was at a seminar an uplifting seminar and

The instructor said something on the order of I'm paraphrasing like tell me how you feel right now And he screamed and yelled and threw up his arms and said joy bubbles. And in that moment he decided that he would actually go by that name. Joy bubbles. You may change his name. He legally changed his name to joy bubbles. All one word and it was around this time that he decided and announced that he wasn't going to be an adult anymore.

His old name and his past was gone and he wanted to be five years old. Five years old forever. And then he started doing this. Gosh, it's May already. Well, I'm glad to call stories and stuff. This is your story, teller, Joy Bubbles. Here in Minneapolis, Minnesota. You know, this recording, as I mentioned at the beginning. They're all from the show that Joe recorded every week. He called it Stories and Stuff. And instead of broadcasting it, he'd record the episodes to an answering service and then you'd call a number and listen to it on the phone.

Hello, kids and child adults. I think a child is part child and part adult. Well hello I am hello this is stories and stuff. You've reached stories and stuff. This is Joy Bubbles here in Minneapolis. That's all one word. Oh, could hear split it. Joy Bubbles. And this may be two armchair psychoanalytical, but it really feels as though it's the kind of show that he needed to hear when he was a kid. Like the new five-year-old was trying to go back and say something to the five-year-old from the early 50s, something akin to, it's okay. In the end, it's going to be okay.

It's okay. In the end it's gonna be okay. Yeah, there is help. If you'd like an imaginary friend, a bunch of them come that are just looking for somebody to love and play with and talk to, and so all you have to do is any quiet day just get quiet and ask for one. Know that the kind you like will come, and they'll be with you for as long as you want them as long as they need them for lifetime and beyond. Radio Lab was created by Chad up in Rod and is edited by Sorn Wheeler, Lulu Miller and Lotsif Nasser, our Echo hosts.

Susie Lechtemberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Kusik, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindu Nannasabundam, Mack Kilti, Annie McEwan, Alex Nason, Sara Kare, Anna Rusk with Paz, Sarah Sandback, Aryan Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Bone Wong. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.

Hi, this is Susanna calling from Washington, DC. Leadership support for Radio Lab Science Programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, Assignment Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.