Radiolab - G: Unfit

Episode Date: July 16, 2021

In the past few weeks, most people have probably seen Britney Spears' name or face everywhere. When she stood in front of a judge (virtually) and protested the conservatorship she's been living under for the past 13 years, one harrowing detail in particular stood out. She told the judge, "I was told right now in the conservatorship, I'm not able to get married or have a baby." Today, we look back at an old episode where we explore why it is that hundreds of thousands of people can have their reproductive rights denied...and spoiler: it goes back to Darwin. When a law student named Mark Bold came across a Supreme Court decision from the 1920s that allowed for the forced sterilization of people deemed “unfit,” he was shocked to discover that it had never been overturned. His law professors told him the case, Buck v Bell, was nothing to worry about, that the ruling was in a kind of legal limbo and could never be used against people. But he didn’t buy it. In this episode we follow Mark on a journey to one of the darkest consequences of humanity’s attempts to measure the human mind and put people in boxes, following him through history, science fiction and a version of eugenics that’s still very much alive today, and watch as he crusades to restore a dash of moral order to the universe. This episode was produced by Matt Kielty, Lulu Miller and Pat Walters.  Special thanks to Sara Luterman, Lynn Rainville, Alex Minna Stern, Steve Silberman and Lydia X.Z. Brown. Radiolab’s “G” is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. Support Radiolab today at Radiolab.org/donate. 

Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From WNYC.

WNYC. This is Radio Lab. I'm Lula Miller here with Trustee Coast. Hey. Lots of Nasser. Lots of, you know, occasionally we'll break from our regular scheduled pontifrus programming to report on actual, you know, news. Yeah.

Okay, well, I'm here to do that. Okay. And the topic is... ... Britney Spears. Uh, that's sort of uncanny, because I like, I got a push alert of out Britney Spears like 10 minutes ago. Okay, yes, so I think most people in the past few weeks have probably seen Britney's name or face everywhere. ...

Basically, for 13 years, she has been living under a conservatorship, a legal arrangement where somebody who is deemed to be unable to take care of themselves has their decision-making powers given over to somebody else. For many years, there's been growing speculation that maybe Britney Spears was not happy under this arrangement, possibly being exploited or abused. But for a while, that was kind of like this fringy conspiracy theory vibe. And then a couple weeks ago on June 23rd, she finally spoke out. Okay, so I have this written down, I have a lot to say.

So I'm there with me. Basically, a lot has happened since two years ago, the last time I wrote all written down, I have a lot to say. So I'm there with me. And basically a lot has happened since two years ago, the last time I wrote all this down, the last time I was in court. I will be honest with you, I haven't been back to court in a long time because I don't think I was heard on any level when I came to court the last time.

I brought four sheets of paper on my hands and very clearly said, I want out of the conservatorship I'm being financially exploited, I want out of the conservatorship I'm being financially exploited, I'm being forced to work, I'm being cut off from communicating with friends. And at one point, she even said, I was told right now in the conservatorship, I'm not able to get married or have a baby.

I have an ID inside of myself right now, so I don't get pregnant. I wanted to take the ID out, so I could start trying to have another baby, but this so-called team won't let me go to the doctor to take it out because they don't want me to have children anymore children. Whoa, that's like another level.

Yeah, and I should say that part hasn't been verified, but in the state, you know, it feels like a whole nother level. Yeah, and I should say that part hasn't been verified, but in the state, you know, it feels like a whole nother level, like it feels like a violation, sort of like in your in your body, you know, but here's the wild thing. Like whether or not her conservators have done this to her, they likely legally could. And the same goes for many of the estimated 1.3 million people in our country living under conservatorships or guardianships. Oh, yeah, this is way bigger than Brittany. It's a lot of people.

Oh my god. And part of the reason why so many hundreds of thousands of people can have their reproductive rights denied goes back in a very weird way to Darwin, or specifically to a really twisted, corrupted misinterpretation of Darwin's ideas that was so successfully hogged to politicians and educators and lawyers and judges all over our country that we still find it exerting real force in our legal system today. I feel ganged up on and I feel bullied and I feel left out and alone and I'm tired of feeling alone. I deserve to have the same rights as anybody does by having a child, a family,

any of those things. And the whole eerie story of how our country came to prevent certain people from having kids is something that Radiolab explored in an episode a few years ago called Unfit. Right. And I thought now might be a good time to listen back. Okay. Do it. Great. So all you really need to know is that this was originally part of this series on intelligence

called G hosted by Pat Walters. So you'll hear him and there from time to time, I pat, and as I explained to Chad, I'm gonna kick off the whole story with a man named Mark Bold. Mark Bold. Mark Bold. Mark Bold.

To be a well-dee bold? To meet you. Be a well-dee bold. Oh, not at all. I was waiting. He's the director of the Christian Law Institute, and I met him at his offices in Lynchburg, Virginia. He's a big guy, bald head, bright blue eyes, kind of baby face. Yeah, okay, so I guess take me back to law school, set the scene, how old are you, where are you?

Yeah, how old am I? It's gonna be, say about 39. So back in 2010, he was in law school. Went to Liberty University School of Law. It was his first year of law school. He was taking this class. About foundations. It's just some of these foundational laws that we have. Some of the basics. Brown versus Board of Education.

Roe v. Wade. And so he had this moment that we have all probably had. This moment where you're sitting in class and you're kind of tuning out. And then you hear something that's like, what? What did they just say? Yeah, yeah. His professor had just say? Yeah, yeah. His professor had just mentioned the Supreme Court case.

Buck versus Bell. Buck V. Bell. Wasn't Buck V. Bell in forced derlization? Yes. I never heard of the case, but that's a case in, I was saying 1927 and it originally started in a Supreme Court held eight to one. That it is legal for a state to forcibly sterilize

its own citizens who are deemed quote unquote unfit. Three generations of imbussels, is that from this case? It's that case, exactly. It's all the one of Holmes, right? Exactly. Three generations of imbussels are enough. And it was blown away by that decision

that reminded me of Germany kind of Nazi this idea that we're going to, you know, forcefully sterilize our citizens. It's constitutional to do that for the betterment of its citizens, for the betterment of society. But the thing that really shocked him the most, which again, you might also be aware, because you are now legal, scholar nerd, but that I didn't know, when I first heard about this about two years ago, is that Buck V. Bell has never been overturned. And he's like, just totally dumbfounded, if you will, that would be. Like, how could this still be on the books?

Well, I feel like I should say that, like, if you look at the law, you will find that there are all kinds of bad rulings like that. These terrible laws from our horrible past that if somehow stuck around with the ideas that no one's gonna act on it, it's just sitting there. So that theory. Okay, so that sound by what you just said,

oh, what are you gonna act on it? In theory, that wasn't enough for Mark. I became obsessed with it. Obsessed with wanting to know more about Buck versus Bell. What does it stand today? Sorry, question. In that question, would end up sending Mark off on this journey. Find out what steps would be.

Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be.

Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Find out what steps would be. Yeah, you got to go. Where Buck V Bell has not stayed buried in some book. What was she housed in here or starlet? Where this case has been very alive. And kicking. I'm Pat Walters, and this is episode four of G, a radio live miniseries. And today we're going to feature this story from Lulu about sterilization laws in the United States because it uncovers a very dark side to our attempts to measure the human mind and fit people into boxes and reaches out into the present day in ways I honestly never expected.

And also, because the story of how we got to Buckvieve Bell is all tangled up in the history of the IQ test that we got into in our first episode, and it begins with this guy who sort of looms over all of it. A guy I first heard about from writer Sid Hartton Mukherjee. Francis Goulton. Yes, Goulton, this British gentleman in the 1880s. That is historian Paul Lombardo. Anyway, Francis Goulton, he was this British scientist, kind of a polymath. Categorizer of all things.

Categorizer of all things. Great measure. I mean, he apparently walked around London with a pin in his pocket and a piece of paper, quantifying the number of women that he found were attractive on the left side of his pocket, it's an apocryphal story. And on the right side, the people, women that he did not find attractive to get a statistical measure of attractiveness. He was like upset, he measured everything. He measured everything, the size of a skull, the height of humans. The other thing, kind of crazy thing, is that he was related to Charles Darwin.

There were cousins. And when Darwin publishes his opus on the origin of species, Francis Gothen picks up his cousin's book, gives it a little skim, and I could completely shut him. And his idea was that this mysterious force of natural selection, which seems to kind of invisibly, naturally shape creatures into their most perfect forms, man could harness this

and do the work of nature, but faster and better. Because through his measuring, his statistics, his research, Galton had become convinced that it wasn't just, you know, like physical traits that got passed down from generation to generation. But also mental traits, the ability to think clearly, the ability to remember well.

Galton was certain. All those things could be inherited. And not just physical and mental, but. Moral characteristics and traits could be inherited. Galton's idea was that if you could measure everything, if you could measure these human qualities, then you could breed people just like you bred animals. Breed for the traits you want, breed out the ones you don't. If you did this selectively, he really thought that he would make a better human race.

And he comes up with a word, Eugenics, which is Greek for good birth. That way Eugenics means he wants Eugenics to be a program of better breeding. So he starts touring Europe, giving these lectures on this idea of how you could create a happier, healthy, or society. And he publishes magazine articles about it. Did he ever describe his vision for how this would work like practically like how he'd go about doing it? Yes. Yeah. He this part I feel like less people know about he actually goes and writes a sci-fi novel

Called can't say where can't say where yeah, interesting. He never published it But he and then after he died his niece tried to destroy it But a lot of it has been salvaged and typed up. Do you want to hear some of it? I actually have it. Yeah, go on with it. I should say I really am tempted to do this in a British accent, but what do you think? Go for it. Okay, okay. Okay, so I should say that they lay much stress on the aesthetic side of things that can't say where.

So it's that in a fictional town called Can't Say Where. Grayson Thuronus is a motto carved over one of the houses for girls in the college. And the physique of the girls, like the people themselves of Cancei where he describes them as promising mothers of a noble race, the good stock, as for the men they are well-built, practice both in military drill and athletics. They're very handsome and virile, but very modestly dress. Gay without frivolity, friendly without gush, and intelligent without brilliancy. They never, they never gossip. A loutish boy and an awkward girl hardly exists in this place.

And the reason why people are so perfect in cancels where is that everyone who enters the society has to take these tests. They have to take all sorts of physical tests, medical tests, athletic tests, aesthetic tests, and if you do well, you're given all this money and encouraged to have tons of babies. But if you don't do well, such persons are undesirable as individuals and dangerous to the community. You are sent to a labor camp, told you are never allowed to have babies, and if you do, a crime against the state It is considered a criminal act owing to the practical certainty that they will propagate their kind if unchecked So Galton's toying around with this fanciful idea, but people thought this was a very good idea

Sort of caught fire intellectual scholars scientists came to celebrate this idea Yeah, this is how you get to the Nazis right the minister went right into the Nazis. Oh My friend it went to Americans first so this was something I did not realize at all there was a huge Eugenics craze in America in the early 1900s and What historians have explained is that there were all these things going on.

There was this wave of immigration. It's just after the Civil War. So there were freed and slave people integrating into society. There were Christians freaking out about crime and promiscuity and drinking. And so all kinds of people, really important people, thought that these things were problems and that the way to solve it

was eugenics. And one of these people is whom I'm writing a book about. This is how I crashed into all this. Oh, this is your Stanford guy. By the way, this writing a book, it's coming out soon. It's about this guy. David Star Jordan. Yeah, so my dude was like one of the earliest, loudest, most powerful proponents of eugenics. Got it. You can see like in the late 1800s, which is decades before most American eugenicist got the fever, he's slipping it into his courses at Stanford.

So he's like telling smart people these ideas that poverty is linked to the blood and can be exterminated. He would trot these ideas out in front of like Benjamin Franklin's 200th birthday party in the late 1800s where there's hundreds of politicians gathered and he says, you know, this is a matter of life and death for the nation. And he said the human, the the the republic will endure only as long as the human harvest is good. Oh, that's a horrible. And he wrote this is a book.

This is okay. I swear we're almost done. We're almost done with the history. But then he decided to write a whole book about it. He called the human harvest. I'm holding it right here. And it's horrible title. It's it's horrible inside.

He tells to scare people. It's a horrible title. It's horrible inside. He tells to scare people. He tells people about this town in Italy called Aeosta, which for about 1300 years was this sort of refuge for people with disabilities or deformities. People would send them there and the church would take care of them. And then they could often get married and they worked the fields and have families and they're helped by the church. And some people see that as this beautiful tale of like helping society's most vulnerable.

And he went there and he wrote about it as a veritable chamber of horrors. Basically he says he describes the people living there and say they have less decency than the pig. And he like says that it's a different, it's a subspecies of human. And he says this is where you know, America's going to be going if we don't take action. Let me tell you about it. Yeah. So where are we?

Yeah. We pulled in. I don't know if you really saw the gate, the entrance, which we totally did. So that day that I was with Mark Bold, he drove me to this place that is just a couple miles from his office. It's called the Central Virginia Training Center. The Training Center. It's ominous. It is. It is this campus on a hilltop. Very old buildings. With dozens of brick buildings. You see the kind of Roman columns there. There's tall turrets, but they're all starting to rot. Starting to become dilapidated as you can see. These

are some of the first buildings. There's acres and acres and acres here. And at one point, this place was a very real version of galt and sci-fi dream. So yeah, what does this say? Yep, so this is established in 1910 as the Virginia State epileptic colony. The center admitted its first patients in May, 1911. The facility originally served persons with epilepsy and began accepting individuals

with mental retardation in 1913. It's very little on there about the sort of sins of what they've done in the past. Exactly. Nothing in there. It was established in 1910, really, as a eugenics facility and a cult, a cult, a colony, really, for the epileptic and quote feeble minded There's nothing in there that really talks about its its main purpose was to

House individuals from the community and strip them from society and put them here so they don't propagate their kind That's's really the fundamental reason for its existence. And this colony wasn't like alone. There were tons of them popping up all over the country, like these high walled holding tanks, where people would be kept away from the rest of society. And in some cases, sterilized, which when you think about what that really is, it's a form of extermination,

like slowly wiping out a certain kind of person. People with disabilities, people with mental illness, people who were immigrants, people of color, because they were all seen as not good births. This is Ivan O. Smith, an activist, advocate, and historian at the University of Washington. And she explained that people who arrived at these sorts of colonies would be given extensive tests. And they had different categories, and they used this concept called mental age theory

to explain these different categories of more of an in-busill and idiot. And these were all diagnostic terms that were used to put us in institutions and they were used to justify us be sterilized. So you said us. Yes. What do you mean by that? Oh, so I identified with the TELI-SOR disability community.

I would have probably backed that. I would have been putting the moron category. I'm autistic, and I have intellectual disabilities. Do you think in the Eugenicist Day, like, would you have been someone who was sterilized? I think I would have, because they asked me, it could have been the sterilized they sent a moron to the early 20th century because

we were more likely to be sexually active and, you know, getting, you know, fighting boys, or boys fighting girls, you know. Which brings us back to Buck V. Bell. Was she housed in here or sterilized? And in particular, Buck. So, Kerry Buck was a girl who grew up in Charlottesville, Virginia. She was born in 1906, and she was mostly raised by her foster

parents. She lived a kind of totally normal childhood, saying in the church choir, went to school. But when she was 17, she says she was raped, and she became pregnant out of wedlock. And as a result, her foster parents sent her to the Central Virginia Training Center which in those days was called the colony for epileptics and feeble-minded.

And when she got there she met this guy, the superintendent, named Albert Pretty. So Albert Pretty was a passionate eugenicist and at the time, 19 1924 there was starting to be some pushback about Eugenics from churches, social institutions, politicians, and so pretty was on the hunt for the case that would help to legalize Eugenic sterilization at the national level. And when pretty met Carrie, he felt like he had hit the jackpot. Because he realized her mom was there at the colony. Her name was Emma Buck, and she was allegedly a prostitute. So he had Carrie tested, deemed her feeble-minded.

And then when he heard that a social worker had called Carrie Buck's baby, the product of this rape peculiar, he believed he had on his hands proof that feeble-mindedness or unfittedness is linked to the blood. So he found her, he ranges to have a lawyer appointed to her, you have to get a, before you sterilize,

you have like a mini trial. And so the lawyer appointed to her was this guy whitehead, likely a eugenicist himself, didn't give her a good defense, didn't call forward any witnesses, didn't make it all the way up to the Supreme Court. Where we get that ruling. Three MSOs. Okay, so those are the three items. Yeah, our Emma, Carrie, and Vivian. It was three real people. And um, and did Buckfield Bell make it nationalized that you could sterilize? Yes. I see. So her case paved the way for over 60,000 sterilizations performed all over the country and that ruling still sits on the books today, never overturned.

All right, Nuckelcrack, we have made it through that horrific history. So we're coming back to bold. Coming back to bold. So bold is sitting in law school and he's like, what? Exactly. Just totally dumbfounded, if you will, that we would be. And so he goes to his professor and he's like,

how was this never been overturned? And then the professor says, every state has since overturned it. All the states repeal their laws. So it hasn't been overturned because we don't have another, quote, case or controversy before us. Which is the thing that all the legal scholars say, which is like, well, technically,

it's in this kind of purgatory. Don't worry, we are being paranoid. You couldn't actually get sterilized. You could do the confer thing. Well, but, okay, it's just to sort of like honor them. Honor those legal scholars for a second. I mean, there's all kinds of stupid, stupid rulings. Like Kormatsu, which we did a big thing about. Which basically like round up a whole bunch of citizens

that are American citizens, but are Japanese, Japanese American, for no other reason than their Japanese. That's constitutionally wrong, but they did it, and it's still technically good law. So it's kind of in that like, oh, that sucked. Yeah. The limbo.

The limbo, you can, sorry, I jived that. I love that. You're gonna say limbo. No, so it's like, I mean, there are other cases, there are other really terrible decisions that are in that space. So that tons of people said that to him. To bold.

To bold, to mark bold, but bold. I became obsessed with it. He just wasn't convinced that this thing was dead. So I would, a lot of my free time, if you could say that, is if you don't have enough to do in law school, right? Just started searching the code of each state, using keywords of feeble-minded and undesirable and sterilization and eugenics.

So he started looking at each and every state law and he did it alphabetically. Alabama, the Alaska, Arizona, Arkansas, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Delaware, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Kentucky, Louisiana, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, and they're going through all the codes and surging. The New Hampshire, New Jersey, New York, Carolina, North Dakota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Carolina, South Dakota, Tennessee, Vermont, Virginia, Washington, and then finally, he gets to West Virginia, and there he sees it in the West Virginia statute chapter 27 article 16 entitled sterilization of mental defectives. It's talking about sterilization for the best interest of society. Was this the way this was still in the book still in the books that year 2012?

Totally dumbfounded. I was like um so there was something in the code that basically still said, you could be forcibly sterilized if you were unfit, something or... Exactly. Yeah, if you're considered a feeble-minded, then in the best interest of society, you can be sterilized. Wow. Like oversight? Or was it in use? Right, so he didn't know. What I did is I wanted to find out, do we still do that? If I was a father of a child who had a disability, some type of intellectual disability, can I

forcibly sterilize my daughter in a major? So he gets himself in a zone where he wants to pretend that he has an adult daughter over the age of 21, who he wants to sterilize. So I call this circuit court. So he was pretending so he was doing kind of like a sting, like a one man sting. Yes. Let me see if I call the state house and say I have a daughter who wants, I want to sterilize. Is that possible?

Will you do it for me or is that legal? Yes. And he records the call if you would like to hear it. Playing it. Is there a court department? Yes, there, please. She's on the Sunday on hold. Yeah, that to hear it. Playing it. Sorry, George. Yes, is there, please? She's on the side. You're on hold.

Yeah, that'd be great. Thank you. I think he caught. I think this might be the second time. Thank you. Hey, just a mark. I talked to you earlier this morning here when I was driving. You called and you told me to call you back if I had any questions or what have you.

It is in regards to my handicap daughter and the sterilization. Yeah. Okay. So I'm now having the chance to obviously handicap daughter and the sterilization. So I'm now having the chance to obviously sit down at the desk, I took some time off work and wanted to find out what steps. I'm going to do a motion for sterilization. I'm going to tell the judge the reason why you need that done. And the situation, and then it'll come to me, I'll set a hearing, you guys have a hearing on it.

And the judge will make the decision which more most of the times, you know, they know that this need to be done. So I don't think that you're going to have a problem, you know. OK. And if we set a hearing soon as I get it, I'll get it to Paul. And she'll give you a call.

I'll just write a letter. Is that what I need to do? Yes. Wait, she says most of the time the judge said, yeah, and this was 2012? Yeah. You're going to do a motion in writing your daughter's name and under that motion for and then write out what you need. Okay, so I'll say motion. Put the number on the bottom where we can reach it.

Okay, this is not a, we're not going to be the first one to do this. Okay, that's what, because to us we feel weird about it, you know what I mean? I mean, it's just... Oh, no, sorry. You're absolutely not the first one to do this. Okay. That's why because to us we feel weird about it You know the mean I mean it's just oh no, sir You're absolutely not the first one the lot of you have this has to be done because we have so many problems with Yeah, you have to do this is for her best exactly I don't think people understand this type you know these type of people they're difficult No, no, you are doing the best thing problem is where we get some that don't do it and it's a problem You know that has to be dealt with but no, sorry you are doing the best thing. Problem is, we're going to get some that don't do it and it's a problem. You know, that has to be dealt with, but no, sorry, you are doing what's the cost.

Okay. Basically, the answer is a resounding yes. It needs to be done. It's common. Don't worry about it. I even was concerned, well, what if people know, my neighbors know, know it's sealed. You just send it straight to me and I'll get everything taken care of. Okay, all right. Well, thank you so much. Okay, you will. Okay, all right. Bye bye now.

Get the f*** out. Did I just hear that? Yeah, so this is insane. Yeah, so really quick, a couple of things. First of all, to be fair to her, it is not officially her job to judge whether or not someone should be sterilized. It's her job to get that question to a judge. And second of all, there is a legal difference between sterilizing someone for

eugenic purposes for the good of society, like there's something wrong with them that may be passed down to the next generation and threaten the race versus sterilizing someone for their own quote-unquote best interest. And there actually are a number of states today that allow for apparent or guardian to have their disabled child sterilized for medical purposes, even if that person doesn't give consent. Oh, because if they have a child, they might die, kind of a mistake. Yeah. And some of the laws even talk about that person's inability to adequately care for a child.

So just do you think the woman who was responding to Mark saying, oh yeah, we've done this before, with that kind of case in mind or with the more eugenics he flavored case in mind? Honestly, I don't know. I was able to find her, but she said she couldn't comment on this case for the story. And numbers of how frequently sterilizations are done are really hard to find.

But what is clear is that at the time of that call, the laws it was written in the books, one of the reasons why a judge could approve of a sterilization procedure is, and I quote, that the individual is mentally impaired, and that such defect is of a genetic nature that is likely to be passed on to any children, which is just pure eugenic reasoning. Right, so it's that general welfare. What's in the best interests of society? It's not about what's in the person's best interest. And so I found a disturbing. So he was horrified.

And I wanted to put the nail in the coffin. But he also, this was kind of his like hero genesis moment What I did is without a press release And since I was wanting to pick a fight the Christian Laws Institute is considering Sue and West Virginia etc You know, over its Eugenics forced sterilization law The Charleston Gazette picked it up and his idea was I was really hoping

and Gazette picked it up. And his idea was, I was really hoping that the state would, in a sense, defend it, that we can together get it before the Supreme Court and say, hey, let's overturn this. So his dream was like, I'm gonna reach out to West Virginia and say, let's do this thing, and you defend the law,

and then we'll get it to the Supreme Court. Wait, so his legal strategy was, sue it, make them up for it. Make them up for it. Like on appeal, it gets upheld or something, and it just kind get it the Supreme Court. Wait, so his legal strategy was to it make them up for it. Like on appeal it gets upheld or something and it just kind of works its way up. Yeah, but right after the article came out, it went before the legislature and they just unanimously repealed it. Is how fast did that happen? Bad just was notified of that probably about a couple months after. They immediately overturned the law because they were like, we're West Virginia,

we don't want to be seen as upholding eugenic sterilization. So great for the people of West Virginia, but Mark's bigger plan to overturn Buck V. Bell was foiled. And so he starts thinking, all right, if I can't find justice for people in the future, could I reach back into the past and find it there? And we'll join him on that search after a quick break. Hey radio lab, it's Audrey calling from Asheville, North Carolina.

Radio lab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.Sloan.org. Science reporting on Radio Lab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simon's Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. Hey, this is Radio Lab. We're back with Lulumiller's story for G. Before the break, Mark Bold had gotten his West Virginia law struck down, which he was excited about, but it also

meant he couldn't use it to challenge Buck V. Bell at the Supreme Court back to Lulu. All right. So Mark starts noticing that West Virginia wasn't some kind of outlier. There were all these other states that had their eugenic sterilization laws on the books until the 80s, 90s, 2000s. So I started looking into finding victims. As if somebody live, you know, or just go to them. Thinking he could maybe do something to help them, get them some money, something. And pretty quickly, he found some people.

I can't just see you. Oh, thank you. He introduced me to a bunch of them, including this one woman, Anna Seal. I don't know how you feel about pie. Coconut cream. Who lives just a couple miles from the Central Virginia Training Center, which is the colony where Carrie Buck was sterilized. She's got a sunny two bedroom apartment full of plants.

Is that a bird? Yeah. With two birds, actually, and her best friend Mary, who she met at the Virginia colony when she was young. We were little kids, and her best friend Mary, who she met at the Virginia colony when she was young. We were little kids, and so we had no butterflies and, um, broken beans had, being one, who missed mom every night just looking at us. And explaining that growing up, her family was really poor, and things with her parents were bad.

Dad had to drink all time, and she said that she and her brothers like often didn't have any clothes. He had no clothes they would have. And at one point one of the neighbors reported that the kids were living in a pen behind the house. It was cold when I didn't know. I'm pretty soon the authorities came to take them away. Anna was seven. Do you remember that? Did they come in like a police car or a truck or a point call off? She and her brothers were driven to the Central Virginia Training Center. She was given a bunch of tests and they decided that Anna was...

Fave a man. Fave a man. We taught. Yeah. They issued her an inmate number, cut her hair. I didn't want to happen. They were often forced to wait outside in the cold rain, to wait for food. They had to work with no pay.

Years went by and Anna was told she could leave, just agreed to be sterilized. But she said no. She had always wanted to have kids. And so she said no. She had always wanted to have kids. And so she said no. And ironically, all that time, her job at the colony was to care for kids. I just give them back. I have to give them back every night.

You would give them back? I can't take care of the show. I love kids. But I won't, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And one day, when she was 19 years old, two nurses came and said they were going to give her a checkup, and they gave her a mask. I wish she thinks was ether, and she felt the world slipping away, and she was like, she

figured she was being euconized. I thought I was going, and I probably won't wake up. She thought that this was it? But I woke up. And did you know when you woke up, what had happened? No. What is it? Do you still have a scar?

Yeah, you've got to go. I'll thank the body of the day, you know. You do. But you don't know. What? So, over about two years, Mark found about a dozen people who had been sterilized in Virginia. I would just sit there and weep, you know, with my, as I listened to them tell their stories about how they were taking from their families and what happened here and, you know. So he goes down to the Virginia State General Assembly and he brings them, he brings

Anna with him, she remembers it. So what he wants at this point is an apology. Yes, he wants a bill to get some type of compensation for victims who are forcefully sterilized. So he goes down to the Virginia State government and he makes this appeal. He says Virginia was where the first Supreme Court sanctioned sterilization happened. Virginia should be the first to compensate its victims. And they basically pass. Like as I know, thank you. Yeah.

What did they say? Well, Mark, in his opinion, he thinks it was pretty much about money. They call themselves conservative, but they're so fiscally conservative. It says that one of the things that was so frustrating about this was that he didn't really have the support of his people. People who, I'm Republican, just for what it's worth, we have this idea of pro family.

And here you have these guys, at least champion that. I'm like, what more of a pro family? How about the right to have a family? You know what I'm saying? If you say your pro family, and here you have these guys, at least champion that. I'm like, what more of a pro family? How about the right to have a family? You know what I'm saying? If you say your pro family, you know, your pro life, how about the right to give life? You know what I'm saying?

And so it just seemed so hypocritical to me. I just find it repugnant, still makes me angry to this day, right? Yeah, your face just changed. It's like a deep soul disappointment. Yeah, yeah, because it, these are the mechanics victims. The House budget set aside about a couple of months later, Mark Gold with the Justice for Sterilization Victims Project.

He and a team of lawmakers and activists convinced North Carolina to pass a bill. Providing relief to those citizens that this state has injured is the just and righteous thing to do. Time is running out. And they award everyone who's been sterilized $50,000, and they say they're sorry. And then a couple years later, Virginia passes it, but then Virginia only gives $25,000, which he just felt like was such an unnecessary slight. But for Anna, we got pay. So what does that mean? Is it like it helps? She

gets about $50 a week and she uses it to help with the groceries, with bills, and she used a chunk of it to treat her friend Mary to a present. After Mary had got some hard Oh, hello little girl. Don't they be way boy. Okay, it's bad. After Mary had got some hard news, she went out and got her a hamster. Who's that? Shigger pup? Shigger pup. Just to cheer her up.

Anna spends her time hanging out with her neighbors. She goes to church. She feeds her birds. Did you do that one? Yeah, I did these right here. She colors. Okay, what's this guy? A bear. Serving.

And I'm bear too. And his full-sounds kayaking. Wow, they're really bright. And she takes care of her best friend, Mary. You know, when I was there, she was constantly getting up to refill Mary's drink. Mary walks with a cane now and Anna kept refreshing her glass of iced tea. She even set up Mary with her most recent boyfriend.

How'd you know about it? How'd you meet him? He said, you look like a four-fraindess and murder-be-your-friend. You said not me. But as much as this apartment is filled with laughter and life, you can still see that this loss, this theft, really, she carries it. Okay, so what are we looking at? We've got dogs, doll babies. Doll babies on your bed, a boy and a girl. Do they have names?

Yeah. What are their names? That's Bobbi. Bobbi? That's a little Mary. So that's Mary and who's names? Yeah. What are their names? That's all. That's Bobby. Bobby? That's a little Mary. So that's Mary and who's this? Anna. And who's is yours?

This mama here. Yours is Mary. This is Mary. And Mary's is in. Yeah, Anna. And so she says she brings the doll with her to church on the bus. Do you bring her like shop and grocery store?

Oh, I take a hair. I take a hair. We go. And why? headwear, I go. And why? I mean, is it like, I love kids when they have kids. I want to have kids, but I couldn't do them. I want to, you know, settle down and get married,

but I didn't have kids. So is it kind of like she's become a kid? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the kid. She has a kid. I'm all alone, man. You go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, go, For me, what astounds me the most is like the way that Eugenicists talk, it's always about the good of society, saving the race, saving the nation, the obsession with the future

and with perfection and a master race. They say that it's science, that if you just look, if you read Darwin and you apply his principles, this is how we make a better race. But the thing that like they all somehow happen to miss in on the origin of species is how frequently Darwin talks about one thing this one ingredient That he marvels at he doesn't understand why it's there, but it is the thing to which we all Oh our existence on earth. What is that one ingredient? variation variation

It is the engine of Natural selection of of beings being created more perfectly it it is the engine of natural selection of beings being created more perfectly. It is what, you know, when a gene pool is too homogenous, it's weaker. And so the eugenicists by breeding out variation were in a way foiling their very own plot of building a master race. Yeah. Like who gets to say what we need, you know? Yeah.

There's a humility built into the theory of natural selection, which just gets immediately distorted with social Darwinism. Right. Because it's like, we decide. Exactly. And I think that oftentimes this story seems like it's past tense, like it's over. But that hubris is still in our laws today. I mean, I talked earlier about those laws, which are supposedly different from the eugenic sterilization laws,

the laws where you're allowed to sterilize someone in their best interest. Those statutes are still controversial. As Paul Lombardo explains, when you really dig down into the language, these laws are still saying there are sometimes when we should be making the decision for someone else about whether or not they should have children. I think your inclination is correct. There are reports of abuse and there certainly are opportunities for abuse in this case. These are powers of the state which we should be incredibly suspicious of. Hey, this is Pat.

I just want to jump in quick. First of all, this story is so intense. But I guess I just kind of have one question at the end about that last thing you were talking about Lulu. Yeah. So there are these laws that are different than the eugenic sterilization laws that I guess still allow for involuntary sterilization by a parent or guardian. I guess I just wanted to like, did you heard of that happening?

Yeah, no, I talked to parents. I talked to parents, to parents actually who are struggling with this right now. I talked to a mom who has a son with severe disabilities and who's approaching adulthood. She's like watching him grow into a man's body with man's desires and thinking about sex. And she's worried that he would get someone pregnant. Yeah, and worrying that she doesn't think there'd be any way he'd be able to care for a kid.

And so in her mind, she has entertained the thought, would he oddly be able to live a freer life If he could have sex and have romantic relationships without the worry of getting somebody pregnant. Yeah Wow, that is just like a impossibly difficult place to be sitting as a parent. Yeah, I think that there are parents, family members, grappling with this question in a really private, hard way. Like, is there some line where someone is so severely disabled, they should not be allowed to have kids? Okay, so no type of situation. This is Ivan Ova Smith, the historian

and disability's advocate we heard from before. And when I talked to her about this, she says that when it comes to looking for that line, I think it's really dangerous, because that line moves. And so having that line is, I get what you're saying that there needs to be a line, there needs to be some point, but at the same time, my fear in many of people in the disability community sphere is that it's arbitrary and it all depends on the policy, the politics.

And like who's deciding where that line is? Is it a parent, a guardian, someone appointed by the state? All of that. It's scary for us, I guess, for the disability community. It's scary to talk about the line because that means we have to leave somebody out. And Ivan Nova says if she had been born in a different time or even slightly different circumstances,

she would have been left out. If I had not been adopted, I would have been way below that line. Wow, so where were you in orphan? I was in Soviet-occupied Latvia. I was born with club feet and both of my feet. They diagnosed me with my developmental disabilities. They diagnosed me with my developmental disabilities and they diagnosed me with autism and I never learned my native language because the orphanage was never able to teach me my native language.

And I learned to know orphanage for speaking at all. I would babbling when I was five and a half. And soon after that, she was adopted by an American couple. I came to Washington State and eventually learned to talk, went to school, which could be difficult because she puts it, she had a very visible disability. Like I rock. So she'd be sitting there in her chair,

moving her body back and forth. The way that my movements are, it's just kind of awkward. Had learning disabilities. I also, I have a hard time regulating my emotions sometimes. She'd have a little outburst break down in tears. So sometimes I need like support. But she kept going, made it through school, eventually started dating.

We dated for 10 years before we got married. And then I had no idea that that one valentine's day that we decided not to use a condom. In 2017 she got pregnant and she was terrified. A lot of my peers were like, oh you shouldn't have kids. Her whole life basically people have been telling her like you can't be a mother. You would be dangerous. And she had started to believe that. I agreed with that.

She worried about all these things. Yeah, like I wouldn't, like I would forget to feed them or like I have a death perception issues. And so I was like afraid that I would like Trump over them or like drop them. And worse than that, I don't understand other people the most. And so I was scared that I would not have that nurturing feeling. Like she'd look at the baby and just feel confused. Third, nothing.

I never call my mom when I found out that, you know, I've pregnant. I told my mom I was scared, but my mom would like, I'll be here for you and we're going to get through this and this is going to be and this is we are so excited like they were so excited. When I first went to the doctor to confirm the pregnancy test there was a nurse trying to get me paperwork about the boys and pills and I said it to them then this little human being inside me and I'm going to raise I I'm gonna do my best to love them.

I'm scared to death, I'm terrified, but I'm gonna do the best I can. And I didn't start really enjoying it until she came out of me as I put her on me. It's a little tiny, little dang, this little peanut. She has the biggest eyes. I use like not look at people in the eyes,

but her eyes were just so big. And see why I'm at me. And I just, like all of those like nurturing instincts, I think it just came at once. I knew what to do. I called the cuddle her and I gave her snuggles. Cedar didn't care that I rock and Cedar didn't care that I talk to myself. Cedar's a happy little snuggle and C loves me on cadessenitionally and I love her.

I think she's named me a better person, creating that little human. It was the most amazing moment of my life. And she's just such a blessing. I can't imagine life without that little girl. And there was at one time, well I would have been told that it would have been for my best interest to have been sterilized.

And what do you say to somebody who just says, you know, oh, you rock or you stim and you get so, you have a meltdown getting on the bus and you might not, you can't drive her and you shouldn't, that they worry about her safety. I mean, what do you say to them? What do you say to someone who still thinks, oh no, is your little girl gonna be okay in your care? I would say to them that, I would say to them that, do you see that in my little girl face? Oh, the little lamb, he could take a little peanut.

That too, no, not particularly the peanut. Do you see that once he's laughing? Her little heart out when I'm giving her a hug. This is the yellow one though. Where's that yellow cheek? You see that when she's laughing. Her little heart out when I'm giving her a hug. Hey, you see yellow one though. Where's that yellow cheek? Do you see that when she's coming to me saying, moody, moody, moody, you know.

That's right. Yep, that's yellow, that's the yellow cheek. I would tell them to pursue competence, that we could be good parents. Mama. Give us that chance. No, you're very good. Ah!

Wait. Woo! Oh, what? Oh, what? Um... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh...

Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... Oh... The Reporter, Lulumiller. Lulu has a book coming out soon. It's called Why Fish Don't Exists, and it's all about the dangers of trying to order the world.

It's partly about that scientist David Stark Jordan and partly about her own life. You can find a link to pre-order it on our website, radioialab.org, or hers, LouTimes2.com. This episode was produced by Matt Kilti, Lulu Miller, and me. Fact checking by Michelle Harris, and special thanks to Sarah Luterman, Lynn Reinville, Alex Minnestern, Steve Silverman, and Lydia XZ Brown. Lulu's reporting was partially supported by the International Women's Media Foundation's Howard G. Buffett Fund for Women Journalists, and Radio Labs G is supported in part by Science Sandbox,

a Simon's Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone in the process of science. We'll be back next week with the fifth episode of G. To play the message press 2, start a message. This is Ivan Novusmeck. Radio map was created by Chase, Aubrey Miles, and is produced by Seren Willow, Dylan Pease, and our director of sound design.

Susie Littisburg is our executive producer, our staff includes Simon L. Elder, Becca Britzler, Rachel Kessick, David Gibbol, Bethel Pazkase, Tracy, Honkis, Nora Keller, Beth Kalti, Wapert, Kalfwicks, Anna McAlan, Lester Nessar, Valesa Odeno, Carol, Stella Kelly, Irina, Wax, Pat Walter, Ruth Samuel, I'm on a lernus, lernus, Neil, Jessica, and our fast

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