Radiolab - Gray's Donation

Episode Date: July 16, 2015

A donation leads Sarah and Ross Gray to places we rarely get a chance to see. In this surprising journey, they gain a view of science that is redemptive, fussy facts that are tender, and parts of a loved one that add up to something unexpected. Before he was even born, Sarah and Ross knew that their son Thomas wouldn’t live long. But as they let go of him, they made a decision that reverberated through a world that they never bothered to think about. Years later, after a couple awkward phone calls and an unexpected family road trip, they managed to meet the people and places for whom Thomas’ short life was an altogether different kind of gift.     Since we first aired this segment, some exciting things have happened in the Gray's world. Our producer Tracie Hunte sat down with Sarah Gray to get the low-down on what's new. Check it out here:     

Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From W. N. Y. C. See?

Yeah. Hi. This is Jad. Hi. Hey, it's me, Jad. I'm Robert. And today's story started when we bumped into an article in the Philadelphia Inquirer. Were you a little bit weirded out as to why we are calling you? Yes.

I don't, you know, I mean, I just don't understand. the whole thing. The story really gets going with a phone call to this woman, Elizabeth Mason. I'm a receptionist slash switchboard operator. She works at a research lab

in Boston and one day she's sitting in her desk and she gets a call from a woman who says that she has donated some eyes to them and she wants to know what happened to them.

It's not a call you get every day. I just remember it was just very unusual, right? I didn't know what to do with it. I just felt like

I got to find somebody to help this woman. Today we're going to tell you the story of the woman on the other end of that phone call. This is her story. You might say their story. So for my title, should I say, I'm Sarah Gray. I'm the mom. I'm Ross Gray. I'm Thomas's dad. And how did you guys meet while we're... We met? In a bar in Glasgow. Really? Yeah, I was on vacation with a girlfriend? And was it, was it, was it, what, what happened without getting into too many? I don't know. I think we've got different ideas and different recollection

know what happened. Well, he started dating across the ocean for a year and a half, and then he moved to America. Five days after he arrived, they were married. A few years after that, they were pregnant with twins. And when did you first know that something was up? It was at the 12-week screening. They called the first trimester screening, and they're checking for birth defects. I think the most common one is Down syndrome. But it was September 30th, 2009. They went in for the screening, the ultrasound test. took a scan of the two fetuses, and shortly after the doc came into the room

and said that only one of the twins would make it, and one of the twins had anencephaly and would die within a few minutes or hours of being born. And he said he could see that because one of the twins had a round skull, and the other one had a bumpy skull. The bumpy skull showed him that the skull wasn't correct, wasn't round enough. The brain and skull weren't forming properly, which is what anencephaly is. A bit of a shock, obviously. Yeah.

I couldn't believe that. Yeah, it's just kind of, it's difficult to process it, I think, because you think, that can't be right. They've just told us it's identical twins, but one of them's completely different from the other. It sounded fictional to me. Making matters worse. The doctors said that the unhealthy twin was posing a threat to the healthy twin,

and if we were to be safe, we would do a selective termination to save the life of the healthy twin. So Sarah says they were suddenly faced with this choice. I actually docked to two priests on the phone about it. Really? Yeah. Her family's Catholic. She was raised Catholic.

I don't know. I guess I wanted to see what their take was on this. Yeah. This is probably not the direction we want to go to for this radio story, but... No, I mean, I'm suddenly interested in. Basically, what I was saying is, would you come and do a blessing over the selective termination? And what they say? One priest said, no.

He just said he wouldn't do a blessing over a selective termination. And then the other priest said that because of a Thomas, Aquinas rule of like, I think it was called double account or something, basically, like the rule that if you, if a train is coming and you, like, you want to save the life of someone on the train tracks and you shoot the driver, that's the right thing to do. After looking it up, it's actually called the doctrine of double effect. And she's basically right. Maybe not the part about shooting the driver. But the overall idea is that if you're trying to do good and on the way to do it. doing good, you must inadvertently do some harm. It's okay in certain circumstances as long as your intentions are good. Anyway, the priest said, because you're doing this with the intent of saving the healthy twin, that he would be there and he would do a blessing. Fast forward a few weeks. We'd booked a hotel and we'd packed our bags and the night before was really terrible for both

of us because, I don't know, we had seen him on the screen and we sort of were attached to this little kid. Next day they go in for the procedure. We go into the room and the doctor puts the sonogram on me and start getting ready and he said your placenta has moved since the last time you were here and the location where it is right now I don't think we should do this. He said if I nick it if I even just nick it a little bit like you're going to bleed uncontrollably and this is not safe to do. He said they wouldn't do it. and his wife either. What was that like to be on the table?

Relief. Was it relief, really? Yeah, it was a relief. Oh, my God. We got in the elevator. We just hugged. We were like, oh. And the decision's taking out your hands, you know, so it's not our fault.

But then your healthy twin is more at risk, maybe. Yes. Yeah. It was like a nail biter for the rest of the six months. And according to Ross, those six months were deeply strange. Just buying one of everything when you know those two babies coming. Then we knew we were going to be having a funeral as well. So, you know, I called the, what should call it, the funeral director and told them, you know, we're going to be having a funeral.

And like, well, when was the death? I'm like, well, I don't know. The guy's not even born yet, you know, but I know. That's very weird. All right. So they get to the day of March 23rd. 23rd. Okay.

2010. 10.30 a.m. Thomas came out first. And he's the sick one that had anencephaly. And then a minute later, Callum came out. And I wasn't sure if Thomas was going to be born alive. I sort of expected him to die within a few minutes, but... He was struggling at first when he came out.

They didn't think he was going to last too long, but then he kind of... He rallied. And he was doing pretty good. Oddly, it was then Callum, the healthy twin, who started to have some trouble at the beginning. And so he and Sarah went off to the infant ICU. And so Ross says, in the delivery room.

It was just me and dormits for quite a while, actually. We were just sitting together. What was that like, Ross? It was... It was, you know, he was cute. It was like a brand new baby, you know. They cry, but he was like grab it onto my finger and I don't know, doing the kind of things that babies do, you know.

There's nothing you can do but just kind of give him a cuddle, you know, and try and stop him crying and cheer him out. And I remember coming to the recovery room and Ross had this little bundle in his arms and I said, who's that? And he said, Thomas. And I said, he's alive. And I'm like, oh, let me hold him. And so I held him.

And yeah, he was cute. like he breastfed and we could feed him with the bottle. They ended up taking him home. I didn't really planned on that. Like, we didn't have another car seat. We just didn't think of that. And I remember thinking, like, what if he's going to beat the odds? Like, do we need to arrange daycare?

And, like, you know, we hadn't thought of that. Seems all right. And we could hang in here for a while, you know. But then soon after, Thomas started having seizures, started having trouble breathing, stopped eating. And at the time, I remember thinking, you know, like, come on little guy like just eat some more like if you eat some more then you'll be stronger I was like just eat just eat well so how how how long did Thomas live in the end

six days six days he died in Ross's arms and he was surrounded by all of the people that loved him and then right then we called the Washington regional transplant community they sent a van over to our house and they picked up his body and took him to DC Children's National Medical Center. Okay, so this is where the story really gets going, I guess. So how did that idea of donating his organs get into your head? Did you see an article in a paper, a newspaper article or something? Yeah, my mom saw an article about a baby who had anencephaly who donated liver cells. And most major religions support organ donation. Oh, okay. So the van came, picked up to Thomas, what happened next?

Nothing happened. Nothing happened. For a long time, you know, I think... We got some letters. We got a letter in the mail, I guess. It was sort of a form letter. It basically said, thank you for your generous donation. Thomas's Cornias have been sent to this place in Boston, where they study potential cure for blindness.

And his livers have been sent to this place in Durham, North Carolina, where they study ways to treat liver disease. It seemed generic to me, because I thought, I want to know, like, who ordered it? Which researcher got it and what study are they working on? But, you know, they went on with their lives because they had this new baby callum to raise. So they put it behind them for the most part. But then Sarah says they got to the one-year anniversary. The one-year anniversary felt like a big moment to me. Like, that's when I can, that's when it stops being in the present and it can start being in the past.

You know, just explaining it to people, at least I can say it was a year ago, so they don't have to feel stressed out when they talked to me. And it felt like a big deal. Like, I think we were going to go to the cemetery and put some flowers on his grave and I wanted to tell my family what were the results of his donation. So she called the donor family services person at the place that picked up Thomas's body and she basically asked them. Like is there any more information you can give us about the specific study or the researcher

of something was published and they didn't have any? So I just thought, okay, well, I tried, you know. But she couldn't quite let it go. What do you mean she couldn't quite let it go? you know, it was curiosity, but I also think she was having on some level like a big conversation with the universe. I think they both were like this terrible thing happened. How do you explain it to yourself? I don't know. I mean, I think honestly it sort of shook my faith in God and how the universe works.

I thought that karma worked or if I was basically a good person and I obeyed the rules, good things would happen to me. Whatever the reason these thoughts about Thomas and where he ended up, they were just, there. She had no real opportunity to act on it, so they would just kind of come in and out of her mind. But then around the two-year anniversary, so this is now a year later. I had a business trip to Boston, and I was exhibiting at a conference at Heinz Convention Center, and I Googled it, and I saw that Skype and's Eye Research Institute was just a few miles away. That's where Thomas's Cornius had been sent. Ah, lunch break. That's exactly what I did. I called Skypeans, and I said, you know, I donated

my son's eyes to this lab a couple years ago and I'm here in town. Is there any chance I can come by for a tour for like 10 minutes? That must have been a weird phone call. Yes. I mean, yes. Yeah, that was like a waker upper. That's Elizabeth Mason again. It was just very unusual. I think she was surprised. I didn't know what to do with it. Had you ever gotten a call like that before? Never have gotten a call. And she's been working there for 25 years. She said, hold on. Let me connect you to the right person. Don't hang up. A lot of times when I say something, they hang up. on me so I said please help the line why I started searching for someone to speak with her it's gonna take me a while because I gotta figure out who that is but don't hang up and they

connected me with someone in donor relations but it was financial donor relations oh like like the development yeah not an organ donor but they because they don't have any other donor relations that you know like that was the person that gives the tours and deals with the public so that she got to talk to me and she was Sarah says woman was a little bit flustered, but super nice, and said, you know, we've never done this before, but yeah, come on down. We'll give you a tour. I was so excited. I took pictures of the outside of the building, and I felt, I stood in the lobby, and I put one of the brochures in my purse, and I just felt like I can't believe I'm here. This is like being in Santa's workshop or something.

Like, I didn't think this was a place you could actually visit. She was taken around, and eventually she got taken to the lab where Thomas's Cornios went. And there were refrigerators with signs that said no food. And then she introduced me to this guy called Dr. James Ziski, who's a professor of ophthalmology at Harvard Med School. And he was eating his lunch at his desk. And she explained who I was. And he said, you know, thank you for the donation. And do you have any questions for me?

Of course she did. I wanted to know how valuable the eyes were, like if they get thousands and thousands or if they get one or two. or like when the delivery came, was everyone excited or was it no big deal? Like, was it sitting on a shelf collecting dust or were people doing stuff with it? He put down his lunch. And he said, most of the eyes that we get are from people who are older, just because most people are older when they die. And infant's eyes are worth their weight in gold.

Wow. I was like, could barely speak. I was like, could you tell me why? He said, because they regenerate. They've regenerative properties. And he said, if you don't mind me, asking how long ago did your son die? And I said about two years ago. And he said, well, we're likely still using your son's cells right now. Because that's how long they last. Wow.

I know. So at that point, Sarah was like, okay, since that worked out so well, why not just keep going with it and visit all of the places where bits and pieces of Thomas ended up? So, you know, chased down his liver, his retina, his cord blood. How many doctors? might that be? Do you have any idea? Well, there's the Boston one, there's two in North Carolina. She would ultimately discover one in Richmond, Virginia, one in Philly. Wait a second. What if

it turns out that these people didn't find anything? You know, research is research. You don't always have a hit. That's true. She's not heading for validation necessarily here. She might find, she might get further lost. Well, yeah.

But she's going to go? She's going to go, and she's not going to stop. Cross your fingers. It's coming up. Hi, this is Shereen from Sunrise, Florida. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.

Hey, I'm Chad. I'm Robbemrod. I'm Robert Crilwich. This is radio. Where are we at this point? Okay, yeah. So Sarah Gray, when we left her, she was standing in a research office in Boston and feeling good. Yeah. She's gotten this rose of a success.

And so after that, her and Ross get in a car and head down south. To germ, North Carolina. To track down Thomas's liver and a bit of his blood. Cord blood. Because it turns out that in the delivery room, right after both twins were born, nurses had withdrawn a little bit of cord blood from both twins, sent it off to Duke, where researchers were studying the disease had killed Thomas and encephaly. Mm-hmm.

She says they walked in. We met the study coordinator, this guy who worked on the Human Genome Project, a grad student. They met all these different researchers who all seemed really excited about her twins' blood samples. I think it was just weird that one of them had anencephaly

and one of them didn't and they were genetically identical. So it's a good control study for them to compare. After they all took the tour, one of the researchers even told them that they had compared

Thomas's blood to Callums. And they found there were a thousand differences in epigenetics between both twins. They're called epigenetic differences. I think their genes. are the same, but the things that control the genes were different.

That's so interesting. So they began identical, but then somehow in utero, a thousand little changes crept up between them. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It's possible that a few of those changes might one day explain the disease. In fact, I even asked the grad student who worked on it most closely, Deirdre Krupp, I said, were you surprised by what you saw? And she said, for me to be surprised, that implies that I knew what to expect. She said, we're just at the beginning of this trying to learn about this. So that's two roses. Like this is amazing. Yeah, Visit Two sort of kicked butt.

She's on a roll here. So after Visit Two, they got in the car, drove down the street to this place called Cydonet, which is where Thomas's liver ended up. Basically, Cidonet will take a solid liver and they liquefy it. And then they inject the liquid liver into a baby that's waiting on a liver transplant as a bridge therapy. Liquid liver. Lever and a tube. Yeah. They went in, again, got a tour.

Refrigerators, petri dishes. The whole thing. The researchers then tell her that they had a little issue with Thomas's liver. His liver was bruised when they got it, so they couldn't inject it into a baby. But then they told her that they were able to use it in an experiment. To determine what was the best temperature to freeze infant liver cells, which is negative 150 degrees Celsius. As you already know. Common knowledge.

Okay, half a rose there. Half a rose, yeah. And she says at one point, as they were being walked around the place, we walked through the break room and someone had taken a picture. of Thomas that we had handed out and they took the photograph and they taped it up in the break room with a little sign that they wrote on it saying

Thomas Gray was a donor here March 29th 2010 and I was so excited to see that because I thought they're just as curious about us as we are about them. Like I always wonder who, what kind of person goes to work and opens up a box with the liver in it? And they're probably wondering what kind of person

takes their loved ones liver and puts it in a box and mails it over here. So my name is Arupa Ganguly. I'm a professor in the Department of Genetics at University of Pennsylvania, School of Medicine. Now, Arupagungali, just to switch to her for a second, she studies a kind of cancer of the eye

called retinal blastoma, which happens almost exclusively in children. And at this point, she doesn't know Sarah, she has no concept of this whole search that's happening. She is just studying eyes. Where are we, by the way? Philly. Philly, Philadelphia.

Now, she studies tumors, but she also needs healthy retinas in order to do her work. Now, you can imagine. that getting a normal retina is not a very easy task, because why would you get a normal retina from a baby? I must tell you that if and when an eyeball comes, it is not a pleasant experience, right? Because for a moment, you have to think the origin, the sources of this eyeball. And it's sad.

in every possible setting, it's sad. Sad and frustrating, she says. Because only when a normal child dies, that's when I can get this retina. So it's a horrible setup in my mind. So she says often when the retinas arrive, which happens maybe once a year and you pull them out of their packaging.

You right away, you feel like... Like maybe you're trading on other people's misery. And I mean, it's so bad. when a child dies, but I am asking for his or her retina. Yeah. In a way, I had this sense of guilt in my head. Now, Rupa had never spoken to a parent of any of her samples. So when she got that email, and she was sitting on her computer and she read the email

from the company that provided of the sample saying the mother of this sample wants to get in contact with you. I paused. I stopped and doing what I was doing. And I thought, why does the mother want to talk to me? That was my first question. So I did not reply right away. But after my conversation with the lab, I took, I think, one day to compose a letter,

and I sent it back to Sarah Gray. And they ended up eventually talking on the phone. I told her, I think, at the very onset, that Sarah, you have to understand that I feel awful. She said she felt kind of guilty because she wished for this sample. Like almost by wishing for it, she had made it happen. She said, Orupa, you should not feel bad about it. If you didn't use my son's retina, I would have buried it in the ground. Like, you're the only one that wanted it.

Bad things happen to children. and so by being able to help you with your work. We added a layer to Thomas's life. That was, I was amazed. Eventually, Sarah and Ross visited Arupa's lab. She gave them a tour, and she showed them Thomas's retina. She still has samples of it in her freezer. Tiny little, I don't know.

Tiny little vials may be a third the size of your pinky. filled with frozen liquid. Liquefied retina. RNA? It didn't look like much, but it was amazing to think of how many people were involved getting these samples there. Like we had to approve it. We had to fill out this paperwork.

Then the doctor had to come and remove the eyes. Then the eyes had to be processed. And the eyes have to be shipped up there. Then they have to do whatever DNA process they do and just how, I don't know, valuable, maybe even priceless the sample is. Sarah says that throughout the whole process, you know, of losing a child

and then seeing him reclaimed bit by bit by all of these different people. Something shifted in me. I used to think like the universe treated people the way it should, and now I don't really believe that, but I do believe that

there are really amazing, kind people in the world. And science and medicine has something to do with that. I started feeling that these were Thomas's colleagues and his co-workers and that he was a valuable partner in this important research that was being done. And I felt an even more fundamental shift, almost like I had felt like I was a boat on an ocean that was like rocky and choppy with waves. And I had this feeling that I'm not the boat, I'm the ocean. Like the decisions that I make are changing other people as opposed to just. I'm a boat getting slapped with waves all the time.

It has made me feel powerful. I'd like to thank the Philadelphia Inquirer for getting us going on this. Yeah, big thanks to Michael Vitesse for his reporting. And to Damio Marquetti for production support and DeLotte FNassar. For all that help with research. I'm Chad I'm Umra. I'm Robert Krollwitch. Thanks for listening.

Message 2. This is Callum Gray reading the Radio Lab credits. You think Radio Lab is. By your wife, by Jad Abramrad. My God Abruem Rad. Our staff includes. That's include. Brenna Farrell.

Prana Farrell. Ellen Horn. Alan Horn. David Gable. David Gable. Dylan Keith. Bill and Keith. Matt Keatley.

Matt Keatley. Andy Mills. Any Mills. Latif Nasser. Kelsey Fadgett. Kelsey's Ketchett. Padgett. Pargett.

Ariane Wack. Eelianwax. Molly Webster. Molly Webster. Doran Wheeler. Florin Wheeler. And Jamie York. Jane Newark.

With help from, Damiano Markeetti, Molly McBride-Jacobson, and Alexandra Lee Young. Our fact checkers are Eva Dasher and Michelle Harris. End of message.