Radiolab - Infinities

Episode Date: August 12, 2022

In August 2018, Boen Wang was at a work retreat for a new job. Surrounded by mosquitoes and swampland in a tiny campsite in West Virginia, Boen’s mind underwent a sudden, dramatic transformation that would have profound consequences—for his work, his colleagues, and himself. Special thanks to Grace Gilbert for voice acting and episode art, and to Professors Erin Anderson and Maggie Jones for editorial support. Episode credits: Reported and produced by Boen WangOriginal Music provided by Alex Zhang HungtaiFact-checking by Diane KellyEdited by Pat Walters Our newsletter comes out every Wednesday. It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [e-mail].   Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.  

Hey, I'm Laptop Nasser. I'm Lula Miller. This is Radio Lab and today we're going to feature a young producer on staff actually are most recent in turn Bowen Wong. Because before he got here Bowen made a bit of radio that blew us out of the water. I'm gonna go and you get and called feed about this whole thing. No, it's now the cat kind of bite. Infinites to start like someone opening this podcast listening like what would you want someone to hear Before they hear the piece I guess maybe just like

A quick Lulu lots of radio lab and here we have the intern bowin. Hi. What's going on with this story Well, it's a story that I made for a school assignment and somehow it just, it went out into the world and people liked it. And to talk too much about it would kind of spoil it, but it's basically about this crazy time where something happened to me while I was at work and things happened as a result of it. That would be- Wait, that was like, I think we made it. I think that was the, that's the only thing. That's the money take.

And what's, do we need to do any, I don't know, just kind of, any warnings or state of mind stuff. Yeah, totally. There's definitely a depiction of a panic attack. And there's also a discussion of suicidal ideation. And yeah, if you're sensitive to that, you don't need to listen. Yeah.

Okay, so we're going to play Bowen's piece in the original form, and then Bowen will come back to you, talk to you a bit about it afterwards. Cool? Yeah. Okay. Here we go, infinities. On Saturday, October 6, 2018, I was in West Virginia for a work retreat. It was a new job.

I'd started at the end of August. The retreat site was a literal swamp along the Potomac, which meant there are mosquitoes everywhere. I forgot to back Bug spray, and when I went out for a walk, I came back with red splotches all over my neck and upper back. I sat through meetings and team building exercises trying desperately not to scratch. So that was bad. There are some good parts though.

During free time, one of my coworkers and I canoeed across the Potomac and walked along a trail. The trail lots of trees and we climbed it mountain and looked at the trees, but now we were higher than the trees, which is different from being lower than the trees, and I think it would prefer being higher than the trees and being lower than the trees and I think they prefer being higher than the trees and being lower than the trees. Although both are good, just good in different ways. When we canoeed back, the sun had set. Someone made a campfire and we made smores. The guy with prematurely gray hair played songs on his guitar.

He was pretty bad at guitar. I went into one of the cabins and saw some people playing a card game called Egyptian Ratscrew. I'm pretty good at Egyptian Ratscrew. The way it works is that everyone gets an equal number of cards, but you don't look at your cards. You hold them face down and you flip them over one at a time. You go in a circle and each person goes flip, flip, flip. You flip them into a pile at the center of the circle. If you ever see a pair, like if someone flips over a 10, and the next person flips over a 10, then you slap the pile.

And you take all the cards in the pile, and whoever gets all the cards wins. Like I said, I'm pretty good at this. But on this particular game, on this particular night, I was especially good. I was hyper focused, and my reflexes were hyper sharp. It was like I had tunnel vision. I saw the cards and nothing else, and I kept slapping and slapping and slapping. And before I knew it, I had won. I had all the cards, but my heart at this point was racing and I had trouble breathing, so I went outside and walked around in the dark with my arms behind my head, trying to take deep breaths in and out, in and out. And after a while, I calmed down enough

and tried to go to bed, which I think is when it all started. Me, lying in bed, at around 11 p.m. on Saturday, October 6, 2018, in a literal swamp along the Potomac. My diagnosis at the time was major depressive disorder. My diagnosis now is bipolar disorder. Bipolar has two phases, depression and mania. Depression is when you feel really bad all the time. Mania is when you feel really good all the time. On that Saturday evening in West Virginia, I became manic. I suddenly felt really good for no reason.

I described it later like I had been wearing sunglasses in my whole life, but didn't know it. And I finally took them off and it was like I could see the world in color instead of gray. Like I was truly seeing things for the first time. I woke up the next morning and went to a meeting. We were nominating people to be on a leadership committee. A lot of the employees, including me, felt like our supervisors were treating us like kindergarters and micromanaging our work lives. They acted like they were our

friends until we crossed an invisible line and they very suddenly weren't. They made us attend weekly seminars where we had to take personality tests and listen to lectures about how to listen, learn, love, and lead. And quote-unquote network with people we had no interesting quote-unquote networking with. And one time during a break they gave us fidget spinners and silly putty to play with, because apparently we needed constant simulation to stay awake during these boring, pointless fucking seminars. So we were pissed, in other words, and there's more stuff we were pissed about, but those seminars were emblematic of everything wrong with the organization. We complained enough that they finally let us organize this committee that would give us

more power, at least theoretically. We sat in a circle, me and my co-workers and our supervisors, and they handed out packets with different committee positions, such as... Event planning, recruitment, programming, social media. And I realized very quickly that this wasn't real. It's just management trying to play kid us with fake student government bullshit. They'd give us the Responsibility of managing their Instagram or whatever, which is just more work that we wouldn't get paid for.

They weren't gonna give us real power or real saying the way things were run and why would they? So when they finished their spiel, I said something to the effect of how much leverage will we actually have over you? And they said something to the effect of as much as you want. There are 42 of you and six of us. This is your opportunity to manage upward. They talked for a bit longer and left the room to let us discuss. Which is when it dawned on me that we could take this bullshit committee and turn it into something useful. Something that actually empowered us. Because likely said, there are seven times more of us than there were of them.

And if we use that to our advantage, we could do whatever the fuck we wanted. So when there's a gap in the conversation, I stood up and said something to the effect of. I like our supervisors. I like them as people, but they are not our friends. They are fucking bosses, and don't you ever forget it. They are one half of a hierarchy that pushes downward on us. Our generation needs to be angry.

Forty-three Celsius were only going to 2100 years. But they fucked us from the beginning. How much time did they give us for this meeting half an hour? They gave us a tiny little scrap of nothing, which we can turn into a beast! I had a panic attack in front of everyone. I felt pretty good. My coworkers told my supervisors about the panic attack. In the coming weeks, they took increasingly severe measures and responds to my increasingly severe mental illness.

They made me attend mandatory coaching meetings that would help me improve and grow in self-management and emotional management. They gave me a card for a local suicide hotline. It made me call the number. They mandated that I see a therapist. They gave me a therapy confirmation sheet. That said. It is the organization's desire that Bowen Wong takes care of his mental health needs.

Seeing a therapist weekly is part of that plan. Bowen Wong is asked to have his therapist sign this sheet after the completion of each session. A photo of the sheet should be emailed to his supervisor within 24 hours of the session. A hard copy of the sheet should be given to his supervisor after four sessions. During an intake appointment at a mental health center, I showed the form to the physician assistant student who first saw me, who showed it to the PA, who showed it to the therapist, who finally signed it. They all had the same reaction.

They were confused, concerned, and a bit disturbed, because what kind of crazy person would be forced to attend therapy by their employer? In spite of all this, I got elected to the Leadership Committee. My position was... Accountability Which was made up. And which I assume and keeping our supervisors accountable to us. I had this suspicion that while we were being underpaid, management was keeping the organization's

increasing profits to themselves. So I started pestering them for financial documents, which did not help things. But after a while, they gave me a PDF of an IRS filing. I think that was meant to play Kate me, but instead I started doing some research. From 2012 to 2016, the number of workers increased from 12 to 35. Revenue increased from $244,503 to $678,871, which works out to be a 178% total increase on average annual growth rate of 31.5%. And in that same time frame, the CEO's compensation increased from $5,700,707 to $85,092, which is a 58.4%

total increase with an average annual growth rate of 12.1%. But meanwhile, what we got paid for in 2012 to 2016 stayed virtually flat with a total increase of just 9% or an average annual growth rate of 3%. Which basically means that over the course of four years the organization made more money and the CEO made more money so he was a member of the board that determined how much money he made. So he basically gave himself more money

but we did more work but made the same amount of money, and also, the weirdest part was that on every IRS filing, I found a difference between the CEO's stated income and his unstated income, that you could calculate by adding up different figures. Like in 2016, it seemed like he was making $9,000 more than what his stated income actually said. This happened every year, and over the course of four years it added up to over $23,000

of unexplained, unaccounted for income. Our office was next to an accounting firm, and I managed to talk to one of the CPAs there. I showed him the forums and figures and asked him what he made of it, and he didn't explicitly say the word embezzlement, but when I asked if he could sign the form and note the time and date, he said he didn't feel comfortable doing so. So, I went to another accounting firm and talked to the organization's auditor herself. She was the one who prepared the IRS filings every year, and she told me that the stated income was for the calendar year starting on January 1st, while the un-stated

income was for the fiscal year starting on August 1st. And I was like, great! That solves that! And she was like, great! I'll just call your supervisor and let them know you were here asking about the CEO's income. And I was like, great! See you later! On October 31, 2018, I had a meeting with the CEO and a board member who happened to be a lawyer. August 31, 2018, 114 PM. I don't know why I said August.

I was probably still thinking about the fiscal year thing. As has been communicated, there's been multiple instances that have occurred. That's the CEO. But when I would just add from my perspective, that's the board member who's also a lawyer. I'm going to cut out specific names and details and anything I think is sensitive or relevant. And I think those have been laid out in terms of what those instances are with you. If they haven't, we can provide a written list of all the instances. That really kind of undermined the ability to function as a member of the community.

So we want to seek a resolution and develop a path forward as a collective unit around this. So I think, you know, seriousness of this, we want to really establish lines of communication and build trust. So one example I guess of trust not being built is when we sent an email and then you apologetically said, you wouldn't do something or it were apologetic in terms of reaching out and then later on that day or at least sometime in the end of the day when in that with our hires We like the cheers bar. Sure. I would prefer not to Okay, you would prefer not to explain. I guess with okay

Do you understand where we're coming from with that or do you disagree? Yeah, we understand. I'm trying to imagine this situation from your perspective. Sure, I would. We understand. And we're doing our best to give you the information that you're asking for and be transparent as we've discussed. That's why we're here today, but you know, we can't have you going off and showing up at auditors. That's particularly in light of the fact that we're giving you the information you're requesting. Yeah, I apologize. And I guess the fundamental question is, is this something we can come to in agreement on? Or do you think, you know, you need to continue to do what you've been doing and reaching out to, you know, board members, staff members, their parties individually. Yeah.

And appreciate your qualification earlier that this isn't coming from a malicious place. We don't view it that way, and I hope you don't view where we're coming from, and a malicious way at all. We just want to get on the same page again. So that's something you think is possible. Absolutely. Okay. So, I mean, I think that there's, I think there's due cause for dismissal. We're not moving forward with dismissal. We're moving forward, like I said, to come up with a resolution.

In order to do that, we think that these are basically these need to be symmetry upon measures to take in order to continue to function as a vibrant member of that community. Would you prefer to use the word viable or vibrant member of the community? I think just as a member of the community. No, not actually. No, okay. So basically these are the things we want you to continue attending weekly seminar and be a part of the program activities. Do you have a, this is, could you email me the copy of this as well? I didn't take notes on it. Thank you so much.

To review, I understand it will be bound by the discipline policy and procedures, meet weekly with a professional counselor for a minimum of four weeks. I think that's already been shared. The next appointment needs to occur before November 9th. It's tomorrow for the meeting. Okay. Sign a release of information form allowing your counselor to communicate the following information, the dates of schedule appointments, your attendance at

those meetings, recommend a treatment and level of care and attempts made by Boeing to schedule appointments. So, we need you to basically share with us a document that allows someone to inform us that these things actually have been happening. And then take ownership of your self-management, self-care professional growth and mental well-being and maintain a positive attitude during the process. Do you have any questions of the document? I do.

But... I'm breathing in. I'm gonna have to go back. I'm gonna have to go back. I'm gonna have to go back. I'm gonna have to go back. I'm gonna have to go back. A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though.

A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though. A little bit of Christine though. On October 13th, 2018, I scheduled an appointment with their behavioral, their behavioral unit for therapy. This is something I did of my own volition and something I deeply want to do. And this is something that I will prefer if information with my therapist. I suppose the simplest way to put is that I would like you to trust me that I want me to get better

and that I would like you to trust me that I know what is best for me in terms of my mental health. I feel like I am qualified to make this because I have 23 years of experience of being meaning and you have known me for two months. So I feel like I should be the one leading my own mental self-care. And we agree that's why you're setting up meetings to me with someone. We're just asking basically that those, that information you provided that those meetings are taking place. I feel incredibly uncomfortable with that.

When I had my first meeting, it was an intake. I had to speak to three different medical professionals. And I don't have it with me now. And present this document. I had to explain this three times and I found it embarrassing and demeaning and that I found that the therapist or the mental... I only spoke to one therapist but the three medical professionals who spoke to me when when they immediately saw this, they saw me in a different light, as if though I was quote unquote crazy, as if though I was quote unquote unstable. And I would feel like this actually interferes with the level of care, this level of management. And I would very much like to prefer to keep all of my mental health self-care

confidential Well, bone we we fully agree with keeping your here. I would very I think you know your care confidential sure but we're looking at is accountability on attendance and Compliance with this agreement. We're not looking to see your medical records. We have no interest in that. We respect patient privacy. Okay. Just understand what you're saying. But I think what we have here is just two sides that don't agree.

And I don't think I can sign this contract right now and what would occur if I do not sign this contract right now. I think we're not gonna have any choice but to go our separate ways. Okay. Okay. Have a wonderful life. Okay. Okay. Have a wonderful life. My parents took me home the next day.

On November 2nd, 2018, starting at 10.12pm, I sent 81 Facebook messages to my now former co-worker who enriched respect I was in love with. I wrote, one of my favorite things from Hardboiled Wonderland and the end of the world is the Encyclopedia Wand. Maybe you remember. How do you encode all the information contained in an Encyclopedia onto a toothpick? The answer is that you convert every alpha numeric symbol into a two-digit number, a equals zero zero, b equals zero one, c equals zero two, et cetera. So you turn the entire encyclopedia into a very, very, very

long number. And at the very beginning of that very long number, you put a decimal point. So that now, the number is between zero and one. 0 equals the bottom of the toothpick. 1 equals the top of the toothpick. And you make an infinitely precise, infinitely thin mark at that exact position between 0 and 1. I fucking love it. What the fuck do you think you're achieving right now? Why would you think this isn't any way appropriate?

What is going on where you think it's a good idea to send me a million messages at 11 p.m.? I don't know. I'm completely at peace with everything. I could die right now. But obviously, I want to live, because living is fun. Yeah. I'd say life is more fun than death.

And I think it can hurt me, I'd say life is more fun than death and I think it hurt me, I guess No No, that's not true. I'm actually feeling physical sensations right now sweaty palms palpitations, I guess I don't mind getting hurt Like I said, I don't mind dying You're the only person I can be completely honest to I don't mind dying. You're the only person I can be completely honest to. So anyway, the encyclopedia won.

The point being infinity goes outward and inward. You zoom in and in and in and never stop zooming in. Replace in without same thing. That's why I love Google so much. Although at some point you can zoom in or out- I'm blocking you. See a therapist for fuck's sake and stop taking this shit out on people who are just trying to be your friend.

Okay. The next day, my now former supervisor and the CEO called my parents on their landline. They said that I made passive suicide comments to an now former coworker that I was a danger to myself and others, and that I should be evaluated immediately, preferably in a hospital. My parents didn't take me to a hospital. Instead, they took me to a psychiatrist who prescribed me anti-psychotics, which finally ended the mania. I felt stable for about two months,

and during that time, I tried to write a chronological account of the events that led to me being fired. I set a rule for myself that the account would be purely objective. No interpretation, no reflection, just a cold, rational account of the events as they occurred, as if I was an alien anthropologist studying a human specimen. I had a hard drive full of spreadsheets and PDFs and audio and video recordings. I would concretely lay out what happened and when and where. But not why.

I never ask why. On Christmas, I developed a condition called acathesia. It's a side effect of some anti-psychotics, and basically, I developed a condition called accythesia. It's a side effect of some antipsychotics, and basically I couldn't sit still. I would sit for 15 seconds or so, and then I physically couldn't sit for any longer. It didn't feel psychological, I couldn't think my way out of it. So I would stand. But I couldn't stand standing still, so I paced. And I kept pacing and pacing, and eventually I resigned myself to the fact

that I would just pace for the rest of my life. I couldn't sleep, obviously, so I took the stairs down to the basement and back up to my room, and I did it again and again and again. It felt like I'd never sleep again, but I kept thinking that hopefully, maybe in 48 or 72 hours, I'd finally collapse from exhaustion and stopping conscious of the fact that I exist. The obvious solution is to not exist. This is annoying, because not existing is difficult when you do, and I'm generally more

inclined towards existence. But if existence meant pacing for the rest of my life, then the scale started to tip towards the other direction. But there's a third way. A psych ward, where the door to my room couldn't lock, and it couldn't wear shoes with laces, and the nurses checked on me every 15 minutes. And there's nothing to do, but pace the halls. If you think about it, a second is a very long time because the distance between 0 and 1 is infinite. And there are 16 infinities in a minute, and 3600 infinities in an hour, and 57,600 infinities

between 8 pm on New Year's Eve when I started making endless laps around the sightcord in 12pm on New Year's Day. When the psychiatrist finally saw me and gave me something that made me forget that I exist. When we return, we will talk to Bowen about his peace, about how he made it, and about how he's doing today. Stay with us. And we're back. We just played Bowen's peace infinities, and we figured we had so many questions. We should sit down and talk to him about it.

Well, first of all, the piece is so good. It's really good. I feel like my first time listening was just like duct tape. I was just stuck to it, and it was just walking this line between so intense and dealing frankly with freaking despair and confusion. It's unsettling. Yeah.

Genuinely felt like we were in your head. Not an easy thing to do. Yeah. Thank you. Appreciate it. So, okay, so this all, I'm just trying to piece it to timeline. Sorry. You got fired.

You got help. Then you decided to make the story about it? Or... Yeah. So what happened was on October 31st of 2018, Halloween. That's why it's so easy for me to remember. I was fired. From then until the end of December, I was at home, and steadily declining, and then I was in the psych ward. Early January of 2019, I was discharged. I came out of the hospital. I was very

depressed for a long time. I was living at home. I was unemployed, except for a brief stretch of time where my doctor was like, oh, why don't you get a job at a Hibachi restaurant? I was living at home. I was unemployed except for a brief stretch of time where my doctor was like, Oh, why don't you get a job at a Hibachi restaurant? I was like, okay, and then I worked there for three days and it was terrible But anyway, so and that I was horribly depressed. I could not function I somehow got accepted to the University of Pittsburgh's MFA program in creative writing. Yeah, took a class about podcasts where I had to submit stuff like over a year later from that whole experience, I guess. It was finally that I realized like, oh yeah, I have this audio recording of me being fired that is like pretty dramatic and interesting. Like, if I were to just listen to that and I didn't know who I was,

I would be like, wow, this is tense. And how did that even work? Like, were you secretly recording it? Were you openly recording it? Did, like, I just, yeah, that question I had. Yeah, I should make this very clear. That recording where I get fired is not secret. Like, I ask them for permission,

and I put the phone on the table. Why I was recording, it was some sort of instinct I had of like, I want to have as much documentation of this as possible. But then is like, okay, well, I need to contextualize that tape. Like what exactly led to that? Got it.

And so basically the story was like, this is what happened, here's the tape, like what exactly led to that? Got it. And so basically the story was like, this is what happened, here's the tape, and then here's what happened after it. And like I told myself, like I say in the piece, I'm going to tell the story absolutely objectively, I'm going to narrate myself as if I were a character, and I submitted it for class, people gave me feedback. I originally ended with a quote from David Foster Wallace

and they were like, eh, don't do that. I was like, okay, you're right. Yeah, eventually I finished that. And I don't know, I submitted it. When you first revisited that tape, what did you think about yourself? Did you cringe?

Did you laugh? Did you have to turn it off at any point? Did you, yeah, I almost want to watch you listening to that for the first time. I don't know what that says about me, but yeah. I don't cringe or laugh. I think mostly I just was in like a full-body tension. And I think I was brought back to that point. What I remember of that moment is that I felt like I had tunnel vision. I was like 110% concentrated on this interaction that I was having with these two powerful people. And I was, I don't know. Actually, something that does make me laugh is when I ask the CEO, do you mean?

Vibrator viable? Yeah, that was such a vivid moment for me too. I don't know, that was kind of funny to me. I wasn't trying to do something. I can't believe you said that moment a little bit. I think, because it was all this corporate BS and We were, but excuse me. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out.

We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out.

We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out.

We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were trying to find out. We were in this piece where like I just wanted to give you a hug. Like I felt like this super fragile person who was trying to do righteous things like you were standing up for the little guy. You were like a like this flawed hero. Like I was rooting for you. And then there were other moments where I was like,

boin dude, just what are you doing? Like who cares about this word? Like you were, it felt like you were ratcheting up tension for no reason. And I was turning on you as a listener, but I felt like that was the real strength of the piece is like I got this sort of unvarnished picture of you because you like kept a lot of those moments in there,

where there are moments where you judged yourself and you were like, oh, this makes me look bad, but I'm gonna keep it in any way. Or is it that I'm just super judge, like I'm judging you from the outside? I mean, yeah, totally. I think the moment when I basically harassed my former coworker and send her bajillion messages.

Yeah. Really, I think, hurting my former coworker. Right. Right. Yeah, no, that is, it's funny that you mentioned that, like, moments where you turn on me because I think some professor at Pitt who listened to the piece, his feedback was, like, wow, like, he's not afraid to make the narrator unlikable. And I guess whether that was my intention or not, I think my intention was like, wow, he's not afraid to make the narrator unlikable. And I guess whether that was my intention or not, I think my intention, like you said,

was just to be unvarnished and truthful. And as a result, that meant me kind of being a jerk for no reason. Because I told my sister about this whole story. And she was like, yeah, they were kind of in the right to fire you, you know? And quite frankly, yes, she's right, they were right to fire me. I don't know what else they could have done, you know? I think they really tried to sound it.

They sounded like they were trying hard not to fire you. Yeah. I want, yeah, like I, well, no, I think it's interesting because just to zoom in on the viable vibrant moment, I don't know if I like turned there. I think I actually, what happened for me there was just wondering about these soft words we use in work settings that can, you know, obscure harsh decision or harsh policy or create a sense of togetherness

when there's actually a hierarchy in place. And Bowen is calling that out, but also increasingly making questionable choices about how to be in community with people. And I think it just gets at that moment, gets at what I love so much about this whole piece, which is that I am just constantly questioning that line. You know, like who is, what's the pathology here?

Is it Bowen's behavior or is it the expectation? But you do agree that, like, and I think especially with the coworker moment, like it's like, whatever the line is at that moment, Bowen clearly crossed the line, right? Oh, with the coat, yeah, with the messages, yeah. Right. But with that moment, yeah. Right, right. But with that moment, the vibrant viable, it was ambiguous for me there. Yeah.

No, I think I really was unnecessarily escalating the situation. Yeah. And quite frankly, looking back on it over four years from that, four years from when it happened, like, I don't know, they tried the best they could. No, but it's such a hard position to be in with someone, I mean, even more so, if it's yourself, but with someone who's in the kind of throes of mental illness, because it can be so hard to engage, even if you know that that's what's happening.

Like, it just felt like you somehow in showing those moments of yourself, like that felt so much real or of a portrait of your brain at this moment, but that's like, that's what this illness, like it's like, it's about the illness, I don't know, or maybe you have another gloss on that. That's what this film, I don't know, it's about the illness, I don't know, or maybe you have another gloss on that. No, I think you're absolutely right. It's very hard to deal with someone who is in the throes of mental illness, or in my case, in the throes of a manic episode, and seeing the way my parents were and how they wanted to help me, but they couldn't.

I don't know, the only thing you can, in my experience, the only thing that anyone could do for me was for me to call the Delaware County mental health line or whatever, and basically talk to this person about, like, I want to sleep and I can't, and I feel like the only viable option is for me to die. And she was like, oh, you should probably go to a hospital. And I was like, oh, okay. And at the hospital, they can't really do anything.

They can't give you anything. Oh, I guess they gave me out of hand. But the only thing they can do in the hospital is monitor you and make sure that you don't die. It's not really about care. I don't think it's just about like putting you in a space where you cannot hurt yourself or others. What they could do for me medically was quite limited.

But yeah, I don't know. That was kind of the only thing anyone could have done for me at that point. Is there anything that like bow in of now, you think, is there any thought you could have implanted into bow in of midnight, that New Year's Eve before things kind of like dissipated with a drug? Like, is there any thought that could have made

feeling trapped inside a head feel any better? Or is that just you're off the charts and you needed help? If there was any, if I could talk to that self, I would be like, it's going to be okay. Your life is going to be unbelievably, unimaginably better than it is right now. And also you're going to make a podcast about this.

So, you're really getting some good content right now. But I just tell that self that like this and it's gonna be okay. But nothing I think would have helped me at the time. It almost feels like there should be a disclaimer at the end here and be like, Bowen's a great guy and this is like, like I almost want the world to know you now as we know you.

You're like the sweetest, most like kind, helpful employee, like you go to learn, like it's like, it's a totally different portrait of you. And I feel like I don't know how, but I wanna like, I wanna staple to the end of this, like the portrait of Bowen, I know and have worked with him, like it's a totally different person

than the person they're gonna hear about in the piece. No, yeah, thank you for stuff. And I guess my first thought is that, that was me. That was me in the throes of mental illness and not knowing what the hell was going on, but you know, that was me. I don't know. But also like, yeah, and that you

got you to present tense you and that you is still in you and I don't know. I like I that, that you with those questions about infinity and that, that fear and that paranoia like that, that you is probably still filtering through and, and making you who you are. I don't know. Yeah. I think it's maybe something to note is that, that bow and in the piece is a character. That poem is a piece is, this is why in workshop instead of saying, in our feedback, like, oh, you did this, we say, like, oh, the narrator did this or the character did this is why in workshop instead of saying in our feedback like, oh, you did this,

we say like, oh, the narrator did this or the character did this. That's right. So there is number one that level of narrativeization and number two to your point, Lulu. Since it came to Pittsburgh, I've been, you know, seeing a wonderful therapist. And when I described this whole experience to him. He was like, well, you know, it seems like there is this part that was repressed for whatever reason. And all of a sudden, it exploded. And I didn't know what to do with it. And the part that is repressed me is still me and I think still to this day I'm trying to figure out what to do with the me that very suddenly emerged on that stupid day while I was playing Egyptian Ratscrew. That's the closest I can get to a cause. I was playing Egyptian Ratscrew too intensely. I don't know. He was so good at it. I'm

so good at it. I'm I gotta tell you I'm also very good at it. I was so good at it. I'm I'm I got to tell you I'm also very good at it I got to play and I would like to play with you. I'm not if you know trigger some Have you played it since? Yeah, yeah, and every time I play I win I can't wait to hear the piece you make about our work culture. Yeah, that's wonderful. I really enjoy it. Um, and you'd be like, Lulu, your salary. I think that was a lot of those expenses on science books.

Certainly line up neatly with the manicures. Um, The manicures. Um. This piece by Bowen Wong infinities won the best new artist award at the 2020 third coast international audio festival. It was broadcast in 2021 on KCRW's Bodies. Special thanks to Grace Gilbert for voice acting and episode art and to professors Aaron Anderson and Maggie Jones for editorial support.

And thanks to Bowen for sharing it with us. Radio Lab was created by Chad Up and Broad and is edited by Soren Wheeler, Lulu Miller and Lots of Nasser, Arako hosts. Susie Lechtenberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Brustler, Rachel Kusik, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindhu Nene-Sambundam, Mack Kilti, Annie McEwan, Alex Niesen, Sara Kare, Anna Rosquit Paz, Sarah Sandback, Aryan Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Bone Wong. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieters, and Molly Webster, with help from Bone Wong. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton.

Hi, my name is Michael Smith. I'm Colin from Penn, Inc. in New Jersey. Leadership Support for Radio Lab Science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation. Science Sandbox, the Simon's Foundation initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Conditional Support for Radio Lab was provided by the offered-piece Sloan Foundation.