Radiolab - It's Not Us, It's You

Episode Date: December 16, 2016

It’s the end of the year, and the entire Radiolab team is starting to take stock and come up for air. We're excited about how much ground we've covered - stories about college debaters and figure skaters, meat allergies and salmon-eating trees, deathwatch beetles mating and Kpop stars dating - we're excited for what 2017 holds, and grateful because you have made all these things possible with your support.  But before 2016 comes to an end, we wanted to do something a little different. We wanted to swivel our attention back to you, our listeners, reconnect with some old friends to see how they are doing, and thank everyone for what they've shared with us. Support Radiolab by becoming a member today at Radiolab.org/donate.    

Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. All right. You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From. W. N. Y.

C. See? Yeah. Hi, I'm Robert Crulwich. I am not Jan Aboum. Well, you say who you are. Okay. That's the immodest thing to do.

I'm Mnuch Samaroti. I host another podcast at WNYC Studios, Note to Self. You also are on our show, Radio Lab, you know, very frequently. Well, not very frequently, but frequently enough. Frequently enough. Frequently enough. Thank you, sir. So there we are.

Yes, and I am here pinch hitting for Jad for a little bit to spread the word that this is an important time for Radio Lab, Robert. Well, it's the end of the year, the giving time. It is the end of the year. What we're about to do, I think, will be kind of wonderful because we who make the show and you who listen to the show don't often have a chance to get together. So in the next bit of time, what we're going to do is we're going to pal up. We've invited some of the people who normally listen to come on the show and people who normally make the show come and listen, and we're mixing it up a little bit. It's a strange menagerie of humans, and we want to just go to the zoo of us. So that is coming right up.

But if you'd like to hit pause just for a second and make a contribution right away, like right now, you can enjoy the episode knowing that you've already done the thing that you were supposed to do that we're going to be on our knees begging you to do. Well, you've already done it. Like, that's already, you've already solved the problem. Yes. Do you want me to take over here? Right here. Okay, yeah, I'll do that. Slip in and then I'll think of something to say on the inside.

Okay, very good. So what Robert is beating around the bush is that Radio Lab relies on the support of listener contributions, listeners like you, yes, who make all the stories that we produce possible. So it's time that we extend a hand to you, our podcast listeners, and invite you to make a financial contribution so that Radio Lab can keep these. episodes coming your way. It is super easy to do. We ask you to go to radio lab.org slash donate to give or even easier if you live in the U.S., open up your phone. It's probably

what you're listening on anyway. Open up the messaging app. Type the word radio lab to the number 69866. That'll get you started. But suppose you live in Montevideo, Uruguay, or in Zagreb, Yugoslavia, a country which no longer exists. Don't do that. Then you can't. What do you have to do then? Just go to radio lab.org slash donate. That's what I always do whenever I'm in central Europe, South Asia, or South America. Yeah. And it's really easy, so don't be intimidated by it. Now, as we promised, it is time for you to meet some people whom you hear on our show but have never really met.

Ariane Wack produces a part of our show. She's never met them either. So this was her chance to find out about them, our chance to find out what Ariane found out. Hello, is this Terry? Did I lose you? Did I lose you? Hey. Hi. I don't know if you heard that. Hi, how are you? I'm good. How are you? I was so touched to receive your email. Well, I don't want to... Your email really surprised me. All right, so I decided to call up this woman that I have just been desperately curious about for years now since I've worked here.

What's on your mind? What can do for you? The reason, well, I've been wanting to reach out to you for a while because part of my job here is to listen to all of the spots that come in. for our underwriting and I like choose the reads and produce them and put them into the episodes they need to go in. Oh, okay. Well, thank you for what you do. To back up for a second, we have our listeners submit underwriting reads via the app and we put them into the breaks of our shows. If you've listened to the show with any regularity, you've probably heard this.

And, hey, this is Terry Babcock-Lumish. Support friend PR comes from NPR station. Terry Babcock-Lumish does every single one of them. This is Terry Babcock-Lumish. This is Terry Babcock, Loomish. Terry Babcock, Loomish. This is Terry Babcock Loomish. This is Terry Babcock Loomish.

More than 300 times. And I know that if in a pinch, I need a spot quick, I know that there's going to be a read from Terry. Terry Babcock, Loomish. Are you tired hearing my book at this point? Yeah, no. That's why I wanted to call you guys, because there's three of you that leave, I mean, read almost every single piece of copy I put up.

And so especially, you know, I think you've probably been doing it the longest out of any of them. So I remember, like, when you move. This is Terry Babcock Loomish from Cold Spring, New York. From, like, Cold Spring. Aloha. This is Terry Babcock Loomish and Honolulu, Hawaii. Down to Honolulu. And, like, I know, like, when your husband is around.

Hi, this is Brian Babcock Loomish. And this is Terry Babcock. Because occasionally, like, he'll pop in. We go together. Yeah. And so I just, I feel like I kind of know you. Oh, my gosh. You're so sweet.

I'm curious. Well, I'm. I mean, it is all based on, like, evidence that I've, you know, gathered from your phone calls and the background noises and whatnot. Oh, my gosh. Seriously? Yeah. I mean, you're awesome. This is really fun. Okay. What's your hypothesis? My hypothesis. Well, you lived in cold spring for a while, and I was like, she doesn't, she sounds too young to be like a snowbird.

So I didn't think that you guys had moved for the weather. I was like somebody must have gotten a job down there. Mm-hmm. Okay. And then you have grandkids, and I was surprised. I had heard them a couple times, or at least they sound like little kids to me. Maybe they're not great kids. That's fascinating because technically I don't think we're even old enough to have grandkids.

Okay. Yeah. So I've got conflicting narratives here. That's so pretty good. Okay. Do you want the real story? Yeah, I would love the real story. So my background's government, I was a White Health economist and first Clinton administration.

Oh, my God. There is no reason why I should have gotten mixed up with an army guy from Madeline in Love. So he's active duty military. Okay. And so we move every two or three years with his army assignment. Summer 2014, he gets assignment to Hawaii. And that's where we live. So there's a story.

That's the short version. That's great. I love having the background, actually. That makes me so happy. Yeah, have you ever heard yourself when, like, you've listened to Radio Lab? Have you ever heard one of your reads? So I haven't. You haven't?

No, but on a regular basis, I'll get an email from a former student or a friend or, you know, whoever it might be saying that they heard me on Radio Lab. And it's always so nice because we'll hear from someone that I feel so detached from or we're just far away from. But no, I've never. Yeah. Do you have a favorite episode? I don't know.

But I think one of the things that I love is that you take things that are very complex and you make ideas whether it's, you know, CRISPR-Cast 9 or Insectis or Zetas or Black holes. There's things I don't even know that I'm going to be interested in. You make them not just interesting, but accessible and exciting. And then I remember it and then I want to talk about it. Yeah. Yeah. So let me ask, do you have that thesis? Well, I mean, there's frequently 30 different drafts of an episode. So it's hard to, like, hear the finished product as just a listener again and not being like, oh, I didn't depop that pee there.

You know, like, oh, the room tone there. I could have smooth that out or something, you know. And I miss that a little bit. Yeah, I hadn't thought of it that way. So, yeah. I hate to do it, but I really should get back to my problem at this point. Well, I guess, I mean, I want to know, like, why you do it? Like why you're so committed to, like, giving to us in this particular way?

So I feel like what you've asked of us is so little. And so whether it's public radio asking for A-TAC or it's me reading some credit, it's something I can do. And frankly, it was fun. Okay. And it's interesting. And, you know, wherever we've lived, I've wanted to, you know, even just vacational subscribe, you know, to be involved with public radio.

I think, you know, it really is the soundtrack of my life. I could be wrong, but I feel like for plenty of people, they're concerned that they can't give a big check that they shouldn't give. And I'm often very quick to challenge that assumption. You know, I think about for people who are busy or for people who can't write a big check, you know, even just a little tiny, what would be the equivalent of your coffee? I think people feel like that's not enough. But those copies out of. and I don't think we should underestimate our collection towel with our coffee. Yeah.

And so next time in New York, if I can take you for a cup of coffee, I would be happy to because I really am appreciative of all. Yeah, no, that would be great. Thank you so much. I really enjoyed this conversation. So as I. It's been such a pleasure. And I have to admit, I was very surprised by your call.

I didn't know if you were telling me to stand down, like, retired from your words. Oh, okay. Really? Thank you so much. All right. Thanks so much, Terry. Bye-bye. Manush, here's the thing about Terry is that she's one of a lot of folks who tune us in and then kind of join in.

We have a very unusual audience. Yeah, you have an awesome audience. Radio Lab listeners are the best. But in very particular ways, like when you meet them, they don't come and say, Yo, I really, whatever that thing you do, they don't do that. They have like very specific sort of either compliments or arguments, but it's, their listeners, meaning they've listened. Robert, I think what you're saying is the listeners, you listeners, not only do you give

your time, you give your brain. Yes, the brain. But let's also remember you give contributions. That's true. It is what keeps Radio Lab on the air. And in order for 2017 to knock it out of the park, like 20, 20, 2016 did, we need you to keep doing that. Please, yeah.

Yeah. So how would they, if you were just sitting here? Just sitting there. Thinking about like maybe, okay, maybe now, what would you do right now if you wanted to? You would go online to radio lab.org slash donate to give. And is radio lab spelt in it's two words or one? No, it's just one. That's right.

Or even easier, just text that one word, Radio Lab, to the number 69866 to get started. That's if you're in the U.S. You can do that. In any case, though, you can get it handled in a matter of seconds, and we thank you for it. Yeah, we really do. And now, an introduction to one of our listeners whom I recently met. The three things that I say I love about this country are, first of all, you know, drinking water coming out of your faucets.

It's insane. You know, you're thirsty in the middle of a shower. You just open your mouth and you're done. It's incredible. So this is Mayank Mishra. He's a graduate student in ecology at Princeton University. Then there's bike lanes, which are fantastic. Bike lanes.

Yeah, because you should try riding a bike in Calcutta or Delhi. It'll definitely get you closer to God. That's right. Yeah, God does exist in India. So Mayank started out as a civil rights lawyer in India, often defending people whom he thought had been jailed without cause. He left for the United States in part because he had sued the man who suddenly became the prime minister of India.

And he thought, well, maybe I should, you know, go somewhere else. And the third thing I love about this country was internet. I mean, just really great internet where I could listen to things all the time. And after I heard Radio Lab was when I first started listening to podcasts. I first met my uncle after giving a lecture up at Princeton University. He came up afterwards and he said, oh, I want to tell you about the first time. I heard radio that was okay. He was on a road trip

with some of his fellow students. So I was supposed to be navigating. I was just graduating from my master's in public administration from Princeton. We were done with school, but we were still getting to know each other because now that we were done with it, we knew each other,

but we didn't quite know where everyone came from. And we were going to a beach house. The entire class was going there to sort of say farewell and, you know, spend a few days together. and I was supposed to be navigating and I got everything wrong and we went miles away

and I started talking about how I had to deal with the loss of my father and then my grandfather, both my closest friends and we were also having to deal with the fact that we were going to leave this place behind and leave this community behind that we had formed over the past two years. The first one I had in the US

someone said, you know, there's this incredibly great episode by Radio Lab on life after life, I think it was. That was our afterlife episode. It was a series of meditations on death. On this hour, we ask that question. Am I dead? What happens at the very moment when you slip from life to the other side? And what happens after?

And we started playing it, and it was just stunned silence through the entire thing. And one of the things that's always stuck with me, is that I remember you were talking about a group and it said that what happens when the group disperses and people go their separate ways? Does the group die or do they carry it with them? This was a short fiction piece by the neurologist David Eagleman, which was read on our show by the actor Jeffrey Tambor.

When soldiers part ways at war's end, the breakup of the platoon triggers the same emotion as the, well, the death of a person. Participants amble away, feeling that they were just part of something larger than themselves, something they intuit had a life, even though they can't quite put a finger on it. In this way, death is not only for humans, but for everything that existed. And it turns out that anything that enjoys life enjoys an afterlife. And then there was something about when you pass away, what happens to the things that make you up?

When you die, you're grieved by all the atoms of which you were composed. I mean, they hung together for years, whether in sheets of skin or communities a spleen, but with your death, they don't die. Instead, they part ways moving off in their separate directions, mourning the loss of a special time they shared together, actually haunted by the feeling that they were once playing parts in something larger than themselves, something that had its own life, something, well, they can hardly put a finger on. And I think, I don't know, I had not thought about things that way.

I had never thought about where life begins and where it ends. And my uncle mentioned another Eagleman piece that caught his ear from the same show. There was this one thing that you said, which was that one way of looking at death is when the last person, speaks your name, that's when you're gone. There are three deaths. Now, the first is when the body ceases to function, of course, and the second is when the body is consigned or put in the grave. The third is that moment, sometime in the future when your name is spoken for the last time.

Or with my father and my grandfather, you know, the day we forget them, The day, you know, we stopped passing on their stories and no one remembers them, that's when they're gone. That's when they're actually gone. So you're listening to this. Right. And the other three people listening, and there's this kind of deep quiet in the car. Yeah.

And then what happened? So that happened. And then that was my introduction to listening to podcasts. And then I started listening to Radio Lab more. And... Well, would you do have a lot of time in your head? What was going on? After school, what happened to you?

So what happened was even in school, I had been a lawyer and I had reached this point where I thought, you know, I was done with human beings. I was done with human rights. I was done with all of that stuff because I felt like, we were just too far beyond saving. And I feel like clearly this is not where I should be because there's a bigger world that I clearly have some affinity to. But what do you decide to do? What was the new? I wanted to go back to school and I wanted to study ecology. And I attended a class in ecology and it completely blew my mind and I decided that, you know,

clearly I'm not on the right path and maybe this is the path I should be on. I remember we were living in Brooklyn right across from the Botanic Gardens. And even through the winter, I'd go there and I'd be listening to Radio Lab. And I, you know, every time I think of Radio Lab, I think of, smiles and tears sort of streaming down my face because there's always so much emotion that sort of packed into it. And I'd be sitting there in the cold, in the snow, in the botanic gardens,

no one else around with a small notebook listening to Radio Lab and every time something would come into my head I'd jot it down. So sitting there in the botanic gardens listening to us like what did it do for you? So open me up and held me together. did both things, right? Open me up to this new world of ideas and thoughts and a community of people who also have similar thoughts, who also want to find out more about what's going on.

And also helped me together because I was sort of by myself. I'm very, very fortunate to have my wife with me. And she was, I mean, she's been a huge bill of support. but we have both sort of stepped out of our comfort zones and have thought about all of these things. To some extent, because of Radio Lab, you know, every time I hear the opening credits of Radio Lab, it feels like I've just stepped back home from the cold or something.

It's just, you know, shake off the snow from your jacket and settle in. Do you feel like you sort of solve something? I hope not. I hope not, but I certainly feel very happy about where I am. It's interesting because if you listen to the show we do, we never solve anything. That's right, yeah. You never do. So you know what?

This was something I've been thinking about a lot recently, and I was speaking to a very close friend about this as well. And I was thinking about what is the role of scientists? And I found that more recently there have been things that make me wonder, what the scientific community is looking out for sometimes. I think sometimes we're sort of caught up in our credibility and the fact that we must maintain this credibility and we shouldn't break rank. But no one becomes a scientist because they read a really credible scientific paper. They become scientists because they're inspired by this world around them and they're just really curious about what's going on.

And you inspired me to be more curious, right? To recognize that we don't have answers. And sometimes just looking for questions is really enjoyable. It's a lot of fun. Right? And to do it together, to be looking for things together, to go on in this treasure hunt around life together, that's home. Oh, Robert, I think I might be in love with my uncle.

Well, I already am, so I beat you there. When we shook hands, I remember, like, holding onto his hand, like, for an extra beat. Because when you do this for a living, you don't expect to do anything much more than tell a story. But if you can help somebody get out of a hole or climb a mountain or change, you know, change a life, then, like, that's cherry on top. Super duper cherry on top. And that happens, oddly, not unawfen. on this show. So that's really cool.

And should I just say, like, if you listeners, if Radio Lab has touched your life at some point in this past year, it doesn't mean that you had to have a career makeover. Like, my own, maybe it was just like it made you smile or it made you think about something a little bit differently. Right. We ask you to remember, you're part of a community. And this community is held together with listener contributions. It really is what keeps.

radio lab going. So let's suppose you were in the mood to give Radio Lab something. How would you go about that? It's quite easy, Robert. Okay. Let me just take me through it slowly and step by step. Well, these are podcast listeners, so they kind of get this whole digital thing. Oh, yeah. Take me through it fast.

Yeah, all right. So RadioLab. Dot org slash donate is a place to go. Or if you're listening on your phone, it's really easy opening up your messaging app that you've got there. Yeah, sure, I got one of those. Mess app, I call it. Oh, that's very good. I like to contract.

Mm-hmm. Text the word radio lab spelled fully out to the number, 69866. That's 69866. Now what? Oh, now. Oh, yeah, we have another story to tell. Yeah, we do. We do. And this next one comes from our producer, Annie McEwen, who was, who wanted to meet somebody who's, well, we all wanted to meet her. So here we go. Okay. So a few months back, we did a story called AlphaGal. Okay. Is your mic on? Yeah. I'm getting.

This is making me nervous. And the star of that show was a woman named Amy Pearl. Maybe I should get my EpiPen. Are you allergic to radio greatness? Not that I know of. I haven't been really exposed to it yet. The story was about Amy Pearl's allergy to red meat and how she got that allergy to red meat. So I'm not going to tell you anymore.

You should go listen to the story. Go listen right now. But the reaction we got from the audience on Twitter and in comments on our website was just insane. Usually we get kind of like, you know, the odd comment here or there, love the show, hated the show, where's the science, stuff like that. But this time it was just like this huge outpouring of deep, deep love for Amy Pearl. Like, you know, get that girl her own show. She's incredible. She changed my life.

Amy Pearl for president was one of the tweets. And I felt the same love for her that everyone else did. And my job at the show is, you know, a lot of cutting tape and sound design and music and stuff like that. So I never actually like met her before, but I met her through her voice. And I also thought, wow, she's very wise in ways that I feel like I really need in my life right now. And so this is one way to get more, you know, bring more Amy Pearl back into our lives again, which feels good. Hello. Hi.

Also, it was sort of an opportunity for me to ask a question. I wanted to kind of, like, I recently moved here from a really small town in Canada and I'm trying to figure out how to like be a human being in this city. and just like, you know, not let it. Well, I mean, it's like, I mean, did you ever hear it? There's a famous saying. Did you ever hear it? If you can make it here, you can make it anywhere.

That rings a bell for sure. It's up to you, New York. No, but it's really true. Everything is so hard in the city. I mean, forget it. It's like, I'm like, oh, I have to renew my driver's license. You have to renew your driver's license. You're at big trouble.

Oh, my God. Everybody, Amy, has to do you drive license. like this take the week off it's not going to work out for you amy i don't know let's start a support group it's just like everything is hard and like all you have to do is go for a minute like where my mom lives in connecticut and i go up there and she's like oh i'm going to return something at costco i'm like what are you kidding me i'm only up here for two days we don't have time for this and she's like oh it'll be easy you're like drive up drive into a parking spot get out of the car walk one second Hello, nice to meet you.

Let me help you. You're all set. Thanks so much. Bye. Get back in the car, driving to your driveway, park in the garage. I don't know why the city's so hard. It's so hard. What do you do?

Like, what do I do? I mean, well, for sure, a good thing about being in the city is if, you know, if you want to do good, you can. Like, I'm sure between now and the time you get home tonight, you can, like, pick up someone's pen. And like, Vermont, like, tell somebody they have, they have, like, toilet paper on their shoe, help someone who seems lost or, like, smile at someone who seems down or be like, oh, my God, I love that book. It's like you have every opportunity to make someone else's day better, which you could

just be like, I'm a superhero. If something happens, I'm going to rush over there. And something might happen any second because I'm in the city. It's like, you know, and it's like when you're walking around the city, I always find treasures. Like if you look in the gutter, you just like pick up the foot of a Barbie and it just seems like so great. And like, I don't know. Can you tell me what's your, what's like the last time you really saw the city as beautiful?

Oh my God. I think the last time I saw the city as beautiful, probably last night. It was very dark and I got my dog and we went out like on the block that I walk on all the time. but somebody had swept all the leaves and there was a pile of oak leaves on the side and the light from the house flicked on and every oak leaf was like silhouetted in this and they're such a pretty shape

and I was like oh my God these are just being thrown out by the tree these are not even like of use and then I was like wow every single year it grows a brand new leaf and then drops it off and then grows another one, drops it off and grows another one, drops it off, and it must live for like 200 years. And like, imagine how many leaves the tree drops off and, like, where does it all go? And, like, what is all that energy coming from and why are they doing it? And it smells good and it's pretty.

I mean, it's probably covered in dog piss, but I didn't get that close. And I said it was really beautiful, and it was like, it was a good moment. Oh, Amy Pearl. She's the best. You know, like, she was so, when you hear Amy Pearl talk about anything. Dog pee? Dog pee is fine. Because Amy Pearl is what you would call a N-S-T.

What's that? A natural storyteller. Oh, yes, she is right. Yes, there's no way she can't make everything interesting. And she, so when this tape came in, when we heard it, we went, oh, my God, get her on the air. and don't take her off. We could just live on Amy Pearl. Now, listen, though, Robert,

there's a reason why we were able to get Amy Pearl on the show. It's because of the pearls that are our listeners who feel precious but don't always do the thing that precious things have to do in order to keep other precious things alive and well. I don't know what that means, but I think it was an attempt to say in a poetic way that people who love the podcast and give just a few dollars make this work possible.

That was exactly what I meant. Was that it? Okay. And I want to add something. We actually have some really great radio lab swag. Oh, we do. Yeah. There's a,

don't pretend you're not wearing the hoodie all the time. Well, it's a very warm hoodie. And if that's not your bag, there's a bag, actually. There's a knit winter cap. There's a T-shirt. There's lots of swag. And you know what it is? I feel like listeners, when you wear the Radio Lab swag, I see you on the street.

And I'm sure of it. When we look at each other, we give a little wink. But you can't get the swag without making just a little donation. And we ask. How do you do that, though? Oh, funny, you ask, Robert. Let me just tell you, radiolab.org slash donate or even easier. If you're in the U.S., text the word Radio Lab to the number, if you're on your phone,

69866 to get started. Next up, a story about a boy, his mom, football, and Latif Nasir. Lathif is our producer. He missed out when we broadcast this, but he wanted to get into the game, as it were. And here's what happened next. Yeah. And I actually chose our football episode, American Football. It was actually the first episode I was on staff for.

I fact-checked it, and it had all kinds of things. It had a story about the history of football and the forward pass and the Carlisle Indian team. But it also had kind of what is the big question now. What's the future of the game? And that question was perfectly encapsulated by this interview with this woman. I'm Monet Bartel. You could add something like if you want. I'm Monet Bartel.

I'm a leper. I enjoy long walks on the beach. I'm just joking. So this story came to us from our senior editor. Thorne Wheeler, who you just heard back there. And basically, the story goes like this. Monet Bartel is from a family that lives and breathes and bleeds football. Her dad, Mel Far, the superstar, was a star running back for the Detroit Lions.

He was a two-time pro bowler. Both her brothers were professional football players. And so for Monet, when she had her first son, Parker... As soon as the doctor saw his third thumb... I was like, yes, we're going to the NFL, baby. Yes. And then Parker's 10 pounds and one ounce. He's the biggest thing.

He walked out the womb. I'm still going with the third thumb. And so Monet, she signed Parker up to play in a league when he was four years old. And immediately, they named him the tank. The moment he gets on the field, he is just plowing through kids, getting touchdown after touchdown. But this is where things get complicated because while Parker is on the field just dominating, Muné has a relative who played football for a very long time and was experiencing symptoms of CTE. Chronic, traumatic, encephalopathy.

Which is what comes from like concussion. Concussion after concussion. Symptoms include memory loss, sometimes bouts of anger. In this case. It was depression. It was suicidal thoughts. It was getting phone calls like, hey, I need you to come get him because he's having dangerous thoughts. And Monet told us that eventually her father started experiencing symptoms of CTE as well.

And that put Monet in a very difficult position because on the one hand, she believed that children should not play football. But then at the exact same time, she believed children should play football, that it's a great sport. And asked for Parker? When I asked Parker, how did he like the season? His favorite things were the trophy and the pizza party at the end. He had no desire. You want to play again next season? No.

Now, our favorite moment of this whole story, and a lot of listeners too, was when... Come sit with me. I need to sit on your lap. Parker comes home from school and sits down with Soren and Monet, and Sorin asks him, Look, if you don't like football anymore. Do you like other sports? Or you don't really care about that either. I really want to do synchronized swimming.

Really? Is that true? Where did you come from? Is that true? Mm-hmm. Why? Mostly because when I saw something about it, it looked kind of cool. Like, people were doing a lot of cool swimming tricks, so I kind of thought it was.

something for me you're playing me it's true let me do synchronized swimming you're like you're like this guy's going to come talking to me about football and I'm going to tell him that I want to do synchronized swimming right no you like it

oh yeah it sounds kind of good he likes this one and so hello hello hey monae how you doing hey I'm good letif how are you I'm called Monet because like every time now that I see football in the headlines I I think of her.

And I wanted to see how she was doing. All right. Also, like that tiny interview with your son just like I think about it all the time. He's kind of my hero. It has grown legs. I swear. Because of that interview, I was contacted about a month ago from ESPN. Really?

They reached out to me and they came out here and spent three days interviewing Parker, following him around, oh, you can't tell Parker anything now. He thinks he's hot S-H-I-T. He has now said in the interview with ESPN, and I know they were waiting for him to say he was going to be a synchronized swimmer. Now he switched it up. Oh, he switched it up. Now he wants to play dodgeball.

Hey, good sport. Although there's a lot of, there's a lot of, like, unlike synchronized swimming, dodgeball is kind of a contact sport. Yeah, he's not going to, I don't even think he plays dodgeball and gym. I just think this kid lives to embarrass the crap out of me. But the series is about the love of football. Yeah. And, you know, they said aside from Parker's, you know, lack thereof with us having such a presence in NFL in my immediate family.

It was the thing of that oxymoron, the fact that I love football so much and that football is still extremely, you know, dangerous. You know, my father passed away last year. Oh, my God. I'm so sorry. My dad passed away in August of last year, which threw us all for a loop. My dad was like the healthiest person that we know, and he dropped dead. I talked to him that morning. It was a Monday, and by 7 p.m. that evening, he just, he just, he just kind of slipped away. And we got his results back. you know, we did send his brain in spinal cord. And my dad was at stage three of four with CTE. Oh, wow.

And that's the kind of thing. You can only find out after someone's dead, right? Exactly. And was that, were you sort of expecting that? Not at all. Oh, really? We knew my father suffered from CTE. I jokingly would say my dad, having a conversation with my dad

towards the incident of his life would be like 50 first dates. Because my dad will tell him, he'll talk to you like, hey, you remember such and such and such. And I'm like, yeah, Dad, I remember. Hey, you remember such and such and such? I'm like, bra. We just had this conversation. But you don't really, you know, you don't think about it.

And then getting the result back for my father, I'm like, God, you know, stage four CTE is Mike Webster. Just to jump in here, Mike Webster was a former professional player who was suffering from amnesia, dementia, depression. He died at the age of 50. Stage four, C-T-E-Ebster. It's Junior Sayal. Junior Sayal was another former professional player shot himself in the chest at 43 years old. Stage four is something that these families are suffering because they're watching their loved ones who can't take it anymore. So they think that taking their lives is the easiest way to go.

That's the only way to come, whatever it is that's going on in their mind because they can't even explain what's going on. I'm thankful I didn't have to do that. I cried when I watched Junior Say I was mom in the press conference. I cried when I watched that because I can't imagine as a mother, as a sister, as a wife, as a daughter, I can't imagine watching my dad or my brothers or my uncles or my cousins go through life like that. Because both of my brothers are exhibiting signs. Now that's all I can really think about is now what about that? Yeah, so is there what can you do? What can they do? That's the crazy thing. You can't prepare for it. You can't stop it. There's absolutely

nothing you can do. And still with that, we're at football every Friday night because my nephew plays. You just got bumped up to varsity. Still, you know, I'm happy now that I can laugh and I can smile because I was completely, I turned into like a vampire when you just out of nowhere, when you just, okay, talk to you later. And then there never is a later. That's a tough one. Did your dad, before he died, how did your dad feel about football? How did he feel about CTE? How did he feel about all of this stuff? If you asked my father, he would tell you, you, I would not have changed a thing. If you look at when my dad was growing up, you know, my dad was in an air where it was separate

but not equal. He didn't have indoor plumbing. He had to drink from the colored only water fountain. My dad would tell you, he said, man, I never had a drink cold water, so I got to L.A. He didn't even know if that's feeling like, what is this going down my throat so cool, like, you know? So being smart in black wasn't enough. If he would have been black and didn't play football, even as smart as my father was, where would that have gotten him? You know, wouldn't have gotten him to dinners at the White House.

Would it have gotten him to private jet? Would it have gotten him, you know, the house and us, these private school educations and all that. Would being a smart black guy in the early 40s in the 40s, what would that have done? He was able to build a life playing for the Detroit Lions, who's owned by the Ford family. and then being able to go and intern at Ford, you know, in the off-season, and then opening up a Ford dealership, and then from there branching up to, what, 14 new car franchises, which he left with all of us to be able to carry on that legacy. So it won't be in vain.

We have started a foundation where we're building on it little by little, just trying to figure out where and what avenues we want to go. go in. We know education is huge. And, you know, I would just want to bring awareness, especially to mothers who put their young children in football, as I did, just to be aware of what the dangers are. Are you willing to sign up for that? So now I'm going to, I'm really thinking of tricking Parker into becoming a kicker. I'm like, you can do a kicker or a punter. That's what I'm going to trick him. But however, he is his middle school mascot.

Oh, really? I was the mascot of my high school. What is he? Oh, you're kidding. Yeah, it was. I was Griffey the Griffin. Yeah, Parker's the alligator. I forgot the alligator's name.

Golly. But he's the alligator. How does he like being the alligator? He loves it. And he has like a costume that he wears? He wears an entire furry head and everything. Alligator is going to have fur? into some kid.

Who is this kid? He starts dabbing and like he's this whole other kid. And so my husband, the first thing my husband says is he's like the mascots, they still get a ring, right? So now I'm like, we're going to keep you in mascotism, whatever it's called, because there's scholarships and a lot of... Really, there are mascot scholarship? There are mascot scholarship. No.

Yes. I know I'm thinking way ahead of time. He's only in the fifth grade. So is he like he's developing like dance moves or like are their signature mascot? He gets to, on Fridays, he greets the kids in the morning. He's got to get there early, you know, put on his costume. And he's out there in the carpool lane greeting kids as they come to school. He does the special events at the school. Like he did the fall festival and the trunk or treat. Oh, man. And one of his teachers won Teacher of the Year award. So we got to go to the Teacher of the Year awards. Ceremony as a mascot.

Like, he's just living it up. I hope he wins all the mascot scholarships and makes it pro, you know? Is it, it's probably cut throat to go pro for mascots? Yeah, I don't know how that goes. I don't even know how that goes. I have no idea. Yeah, we'll have to see when we get there and how much do they get paid, you know, all these others. But Parker also wants to be an engineer.

Okay. I'm sure he won't be. He could do both. He could do both. Absolutely. Thinking about what you said about your dad, I hope for Parker that he will be able to get that engineering, you know, that being smart will be enough. Or if he wants to be a mascot, he can get all the scholarships, go to whatever school he wants. He does not have to put his body in harm's way if he doesn't want to. Right. He doesn't have to.

My oldest nephew, Trey, he until recently had the title as a smartest kid in the family. He played football, but he made a plan. Hey, I don't want to go pro. I'm going to play in college, but I'm going to go to a college that's going to give me a head start. So he went to Brown. He played at Brown, won a ring, did well, and now he's off doing his brown thing in San Francisco, making great money as a young black guy, because he was smart, not because of football. So would I love to see my son in a football jersey? Sure.

but am I thrilled to see him in the alligator outfit? Absolutely. So we can't offer you listeners a mascot scholarship. That is really beyond our reach. And then you'd have to choose your animal and we'd have to make the uniform. So we can't, it's a hard. It's fun, but it's a hard world. So we're going to streamline when we, when we,

think about you, instead of thinking about animals or griffins, as a lot of his case, we're going to just think of you as generous. And now, Manus, if I wanted to be generous, what would I choose to do? You would go to radio lab.org slash donate. Or even easier, you could text the word radio lab to the number 69866 to get started. A little form pops up, Robert, and you can donate in a matter of seconds. And then you can go back to thinking how awesome Radio Lab's first spin-off was, too. More Perfect.

More of that's going to be coming up in 2017. I'm so glad you mentioned that because a lot of the people who've been listening to us to this past year noticed or join. There are a whole lot of people that we never heard from before became listeners to something we call More Perfect. It's a show about the Supreme Court of the United States. We thought of it because we thought the Supreme Court was going to be interesting. And now, of course, with 2017, yeah, we were right in spades. Because what's going to happen next year is got to be, the Supreme Court will be near the center of a lot of conversations from a lot of people in 2017. So this more perfect show is coming back in the spring of 2017, more episodes.

And so people who want to hear it again, it's. coming. But listen, here's the thing. Listener support is a critical component of more perfect. It's a critical component of Radio Lab. Any amount that you can give, just make a gift. Any amount, make a gift and show that you understand that this is the time to get a year-end tax deductible break. Yeah, it's also the time for us to be talking about things that matter in a year where things will matter a lot. So, so yeah, we'd like you to join us both because you want to and just because we think you should right now, if you know what I mean, forget my drift. Yes.

And next, Robert, a story that captures that spirit of doing for others in a way that few can. Hi, my name is Tracy Hunt. I'm a reporter here at Radio Lab. And I wanted to talk to someone who has a very different relationship with giving. Hello, Sarah. Hello. Sarah Gray. Oh, hi, there you are.

How are you? I'm good. I'm so good. Sarah was the star of a show that we did a little while back called Gray's donation. I guess I'm like a little bit nerd famous now. You're nerd famous? Yes. Wait, what does that mean?

Well, just nerds know who I am. You know, nerds who listen to radio labs. Just a quick recap, Sarah told us a story about how she was pregnant with twins, Thomas and Callum, and something was wrong with Thomas. Doctors told her that he had anencephaly. And he said he could see that because one of the twins had a round skull and the other one had a bumpy skull. She ended up giving birth to both of them, and Thomas died six days later.

And then right then we called the Washington Regional Transplant Community. They sent a van over to our house. And they picked up his body and took him to D.C. Children's National Medical Center. So the story was about how Sarah ended up going on this journey, trying to find out what happened to all the bits and pieces of Thomas that were donated. So she talked about, for example, going to Duke University, where they were using cord blood from her twins, and they were actually researching the disease that killed Thomas,

anencephaly and going to University of Pennsylvania and talking to a woman there who was studying this eye cancer that mostly affects children called retinoblastoma. Eventually, Sarah and Ross visited Arupa's lab. She gave them a tour, and she showed them Thomas's retina. She still has samples of it in her freezer. Tiny little, I don't know. Tiny little vials made me a third the size of your pinky filled with frozen liquid. Liquefied retina. RNA.N. It didn't look like much, but it was amazing to think of how many people were involved getting these samples there. Like, we had to approve it. We had to fill out this paperwork. Then the doctor had to come and remove the eyes. Then the eyes had to be processed. And the eyes have to be shipped up there. Then they

have to do whatever DNA process they do and just how, I don't know, valuable, maybe even priceless the sample is. Since the show came out, she released a new book called A Life Everlasting. And I just really wanted to get on the phone with her and just talk about what the impact of the show has been and what's going on with her life. And one of the first things I found out was that she had a new baby. Yes, we have a baby girl that she was just born in June. Oh, congratulations. Thank you. And how's Callum doing? He's doing great. This is Thomas's brother. He can now read a little bit. He's in first grade, and he's liking his sister. What have you told him about Thomas? So he knows that he had a brother, who was a twin who had a very, very, very bad boo-boo on his head. Yeah. And that's why he died. And we

just explain, you know, sometimes kids die. That's just part of life. People, you know, they get diseases just like grown-ups. And it's okay to die. Does he ask you questions about Thomas? Yeah, we visit the grave maybe one or two times a year. And when he was younger, he asked, is Thomas scared under the stone? So, and he was probably maybe two or three. And he was probably maybe two or The questions like that were hard, because I don't know how to explain the afterlife. I don't understand it myself. So I just told him, no, he's not scared. You know, he thinks of Thomas' being in heaven.

But he also asked me, you know, can you tell me what is it like in heaven? And I said, you know, I was really like sort of ringing my hands like, oh, what do I say? I said, well, you know, some people think it's a place you go when you die, And some people think it's got clouds. And Calam just goes, no, look it up on your phone. Like you wanted a picture. Yeah. So I just looked up on my phone.

I'm like, you know, this might be real, might be real, but this is what people think. Yeah. Can you show me a picture of God? You know, stuff like that. Like sometimes it's hard and then sometimes it's easy. It's kind of a mixture. Yeah, that's it. And also since the show, Sarah has kept on donating.

In fact, when her daughter Jocelyn was born. I was inspired to donate the placenta and the umbilical cord. It was turned into four different skin grafts that are going to be used in surgeries and for burn survivors. And also the umbilical cord blood went to research. But also she's been inspired to track down the people who have donated things to her. As I was writing my book, I got this idea for tracking down the blood donors. When she was in the hospital with the twins, she actually had a traumatic delivery. She lost half of her blood, and she ended up getting a transfusion from 11 different blood donors.

So I emailed the blood bank, and I've met with them, and they have sent out a thank you letter from me to those 11 people. And when Sarah was in the hospital with Jocelyn, Jocelyn actually got some donated breast milk. And I ended up saving the bottle. I actually framed it. I keep at my office because it just cheers me up to think of strangers donating things to each other. Yeah. But I emailed the breast milk place, and I said, this is my donor ID. for the breast milk, can you tell me who were the people that donated this milk? Can I send

them a thank you? And this is all kind of like, I know I sound like a donation weirdo, but you know, it's like you receive and you give. And I just think it's neat to make the connection and find out how that really works. Since we recorded the episode with you, have you heard any, like, anything new come out of the research using your son's tissues? So there's a study that came out on tissue that could be my son's cornea. This lab in Boston, they've been studying corneal blindness because when your corneas are damaged, those cells. Once you lose them, they're never coming back. They don't regenerate. They're just dead.

That's how people have corneal blindness. And so they're trying to figure out ways to regenerate them. So they took corneal cells and they wounded them. And then added umbilical cord blood to those cells. And they found some early stage steps to show that these corneal cells might be able to regenerate with stem cells, which I believe is kind of what they're getting at is a possible stem cell eye drops to get your vision back. Oh, wow. So this is like way, way, way in the future. But it's the beginning of, you know, a what if situation that what if we could make eye drops like

this. You check like the research often? How often do that? Yeah, whatever I feel like it. Does it feel like you're kind of like kind of continuing your relationship with Thomas in some way by checking on these things? I don't, I don't know what you call it. I feel like Thomas. you know, he lived and he died and he made this contribution and I'm like a spectator kind of watching how his contribution is affecting other people.

And I'm more like learning from him than having a relationship with him, but I know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'm not sure that relationship is the right word. I was just trying to like, it's almost, I don't know, I don't want to say like it's like he's still there. Nothing like that. I just, you know, like he's still very much a part of your life in some way.

Yeah, he's still relevant. Yeah. His life did not just affect my family. His life affected many other people. And in fact, Sarah told me that eight months after the show came out, she heard from this couple in California. A husband and a wife in California, they had twins. And unfortunately, one of them died unexpectedly. And I believe they asked, could they donate?

And the group said, you cannot donate for transplant because your child is too small. And they said, well, we heard a radio lab. Can we donate to research? And they said, yes. And their daughter was able to donate eight different tissues to eight different studies. Oh, my goodness. Yeah. And in fact, the retinas went to the same lab and the same researcher that received my son's retinas.

Oh, wow. I know. Oh, and the other weird thing is that their twins were born on the exact same day as my twins. That's, oh, my goodness, that's so, that's so powerful. I don't, I'm really, I'm really kind of speechless that, that happened. It did for me at least bring back. So, you know, in my child die, you feel like you've, you have no control. But being able to donate gave me a sense of control back that, you know, at least this is, this is one thing I can control. Right. So I was glad that it had to. that impression had that effect on them.

Sarah talking to me about trying to regain a sense of control in the face of unimaginable grief reminded me of something else she said at the end of Gray's donation. I used to think like the universe treated people the way it should, and now I don't really believe that, but I do believe that there are really amazing, kind people in the world. and science and medicine has something to do with that. I started feeling that these were Thomas's colleagues and his co-workers and that he was a valuable partner in this important research that was being done. And I felt an even more fundamental shift,

almost like I had felt like I was a boat on an ocean that was like rocky and choppy with waves. And I had this feeling that I'm not the boat, I'm the ocean. Like the decisions that I make are changing other people As opposed to just I'm a boat getting slapped with waves all the time It has made me feel powerful Sarah Gray speaking with Radio Lab's Tracy Hunt I think that really is a perfect way to wrap up

Some of these catch-up stories that we've been doing During this episode of Radio Lab stories that really have impacted the Radio Lab crew And you are listeners And Manusiazamrodi, I want to thank you for just popping in here. Jed will be back in January. It's been fun. Well, it's been wonderful. It's been more than fun.

It's been like cozy. Yes. Some would say repetitive. Not me. But not me. I would just say cozy. And I would like to thank all the people who've been, I assume, I kind of have to assume. You've done something during this time?

And if you haven't done that something, well, let's just say one more time what the doers must have done. Yes. I'm putting it in the past tense with respect. Well, and if you haven't, that's okay, too. This is the time to do it. It's the season of giving and the moment is here. You've heard how people connect and give to each other on this episode in big and small ways.

And we hope you're inspired and that you make a gift in whatever amount works for you. But we ask you to please do it now. It's very easy. It's very important. You go to radio lab.org slash donate to give. And there's also a text option as well. You just text the word Radio Lab to 69866. That gets you started, and you'll be able to complete your donation in a matter of, I would just say, seconds.

Thanks for joining us. Thanks, Robert. Thank you.