Radiolab - Match Made in Marrow

Episode Date: January 3, 2025

In an episode first reported in 2017, we bring you what may be, maybe the greatest gift one person could give to another. You never know what might happen when you sign up to donate bone marrow. You might save a life… or you might be magically transported across a cultural chasm and find yourself starring in a modern adaptation of the greatest story ever told.One day, without thinking much of it, Jennell Jenney swabbed her cheek and signed up to be a donor.  Across the country, Jim Munroe desperately needed a miracle, a one-in-eight-million connection that would save him. It proved to be a match made in marrow, a bit of magic in the world that hadn’t been there before.  But when Jennell and Jim had a heart-to-heart in his suburban Dallas backyard, they realized they had contradictory ideas about where that magic came from. Today, an allegory for how to walk through the world in a way that lets you be deeply different, but totally together. This piece was reported by Latif Nasser.  It was produced by Annie McEwen, with help from Bethel Habte and Alex Overington.Special thanks to Dr. Matthew J. Matasar, Dr. John Hill, Stephen Spellman at CIBMTR, St. Cloud State University’s Cru Chapter, and Mandy Naglich.Join Be The Match's bone marrow registry here: https://join.bethematch.orgEPISODE CREDITS: Reported by - Latif NasserProduced by - Annie McEwenwith help from - Bethel Habte, and Alex OveringtonSign-up for our newsletter!! It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)!Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [e-mail] support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Hey, this is Radio Lab. I'm Latif Nasser. Today, as we are in the thick of the giving season, we have a story about a really remarkable gift giver and gift receiver. Two people, basically strangers, who couldn't have been more different, but who managed to find a deep kind of connection despite those differences through a single gift. This episode was originally reported in 2017 by yours truly with Jad and Robert at the helm. Enjoy. Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay.

All right. You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From WNYC. Rewind. Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krowich. This is Radiolab.

So we got an email from you. Yes, you did. Not long ago, our editor, Soren Wheeler and I, we got into a conversation with this woman. I live in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Her name is Janelle Jenny. I like the Packers. Of course you do. Yeah.

I guess photographer would technically be my job, but I do a whole lot of different things, none of which really pertain to the story at hand. And our story really starts when Janelle sent an email to the Radiolab inbox basically saying, I need your help. Yeah. Something had happened to her that was... Kind of wondrous and unexplainable and very weird. And as a result, Janelle had found herself stuck in a story. A story told to hundreds of thousands of people all across the country.

What's happening? A story that sits right smack dab in the middle of one of the biggest cultural divides in our country right now. It's good to see sits right smack dab in the middle of one of the biggest cultural divides in our country right now. It's good to see all of your faces. But it was a story that wasn't hers. And she wanted us to help her find a way to finally tell her story. So to speak. Do you want me to kind of just start telling you? Yeah, walk me up. Sure. Well, when I was 18, I went to a concert.

A rock concert. Yeah, it was actually a Warped tour. It's like a festival of rock concerts. Tons of bands on different stages all over the place. And Janelle is walking around between all the different stages and merchandise tables when she sees this tent. A 10 by 10 white tent with just a little table in front. A table with a sign on it that said. Be a Bone Marrow donor, sign up to be on the registry,

save a life, something like that. So this was rock music and good deeds brought together. Essentially, right, which is a pretty good mix in hindsight. So Janelle read the sign and she thought to herself, I'll sign up. Sure. Why not? Yeah. Did you know what Bone Marrow was she thought to herself, I'll sign up. Sure. Why not? Yeah. Did you know what bone marrow was?

Yeah, yeah, I mean. Did you know that that might mean that they take a really long needle and stick it in you and suck out bone stuff? Yeah, I suppose at that point that was probably not the forethought. I think the altruistic, like, I'm gonna do something. Yeah, that was probably the main motivation.

And all Janelle had to do standing in front of that tent was sign some papers and swab her cheek because with a bone marrow donation, they actually have to figure out if you're a genetic match with someone who would receive the donation. Yeah. Which was part of what Janelle thought was cool about it. I always thought that, you know, it would just be an amazing opportunity to be the one person who could do something for somebody that like literally no one else in the world could.

That's a deep kind of connection with someone. Yeah, yeah, there's, you know, I don't know if either of you are only children, but it's, yeah, you know how there's just like, you have cousins, you've got friends, but at some point there's not that, it sounds so stupid, but that biological connection, like besides my parents or whatnot. You mean that you missed the idea of someone who was muchly like you and muchly in your world and muchly... Yeah, and also even the kind of the need, like somebody out there dependent on me on kind of that almost otherworldly level.

So, Janelle swabbed her cheek, signed the paper, and then went about her normal life. And then about six months later, she got a call. Yeah. Yeah, it was a phone call to my landline. That's how long ago. Oh, my gosh. So, what year are we talking here? It's 2009.

Okay. So what year are we talking here? It's no 2009. Okay It was a phone call and I remember very specifically it was voicemail because I hadn't had the chance to answer it and they said something to the extent of You know, hi from the National Bone Mural donor registry. We've done some tests and we've Narrowed you down to be a preliminary match for a patient. So we need you to come in and do some further tests that involve blood and stuff. Did you think, oh no, I forgot that I did that? Or are you thinking, oh boy, or what were you? Oh, I was so, I overcome with emotion.

I remember just to think there's somebody out there that might be my person. So absolutely no hesitation on my end. So Janelle heads into the clinic because, well, so bone marrow, the stuff in the core of your bones, actually produces all your blood cells, and importantly, including your white blood cells, which are a key part of your immune system. So what you're doing with a bone marrow transplant is taking a healthy immune system out of one person

and putting it into another person whose immune system is, you know, cancer or messed up in some kind of way. The key is though, because the immune system is that part of you that like recognizes you from not you and attacks anything that's not you, you have to like fool the new body into thinking that this immune system is them. So the parts of your DNA that have to do with your immune system, a couple key parts of that have to match with the donor. So that's what they're doing with Janelle. They're taking her in to like test her DNA to see if the stuff that marks out her immune

system matches closely enough with this recipient so that the bone marrow transplant will work. And then maybe a month later, I get another call, and this one I was able to answer, and they say, well, we've done tests, and you are the ideal person in this eight million person registry to donate for this patient. You are a perfect match and will you do it? And I was like, absolutely.

Does that feel to you like the call of destiny? Like maybe this was meant to be then. Yeah. I think there's something I feel that's, like, bigger than myself that's happening. And I don't really, I mean, I can't really explain it yet at that point, but I know there's, like, okay, here's a big thing. So I go in, and unfortunately, to disappoint you, Robert, the way that I donated bone marrow wasn't actually the real bad way with the big needle. Oh, really? I'm not disappointed. I'm grateful for whoever. Have they come up with a small needle version or a straw or something? Yeah, well, what they essentially do, and this is actually

the far more common way of doing it now, is they inject you with all these drugs. And it is like eight injections that boost your white blood cell count up to astronomical heights. And do you know, like, when you get sick, when your immune system kicks in overdrive and you feel sick, imagine that like eight times over. Just because I had- Like nauseous, achy, shaky.

So achy, every bone hurt. And while Janelle is feeling achy and sick, inside of her, her bone marrow is pumping out a bunch of new baby blood cells. Unmatured stem cells that can really become almost anything. Then they just go in and grab those cells. They harvest you, I guess. So you have an eagle in both arms and you pretty much sit still for six hours till they suck all your blood out of your body, put it in a machine, and give you back what they don't need.

So I think they've got about, you know, one of those little IV bags. Just a quart-sized plastic bag. Full of my stem cells. And once you're done, they put some band-aids on you and they're like, all right, let us know if we need anything. And do you know anything about, like, what happens to your blood cells? Like, who gets it or what happens? Yeah, the whole registry is very, very strict about patient confidentiality,

but they did tell me that it was a 29-year-old man with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. And that's literally, that's all I knew for a whole year. a 29-year-old man with acute lymphoblastic leukemia. And that's literally, that's all I knew for a whole year. Did you look that up in the? Oh, of course. I did endless Google searches of 29-year-old man acute lymphoblastic leukemia. Trying to get a real peek.

Right, I was like, oh, maybe he's worded it that way. And I didn't find anything, of course. But once that year is up, if both parties agree, then we can talk. And that's kind of really interesting because I definitely was looking forward to that year mark, but once that hit, I kind of got cold feet. I really just wasn't ready to know exactly who he was. And then I was also worried that maybe this guy's like a real piece of crap. Like maybe he's a clan member or a criminal or something. So there's a part of that too.

So you're worried that you'd open up the Sentinel and it would say, a formerly ill person robs three banks and hits old ladies. Yes. Horrible man saved by Janelle Jennings. Right. It's so stupid to saved by Janelle Jennings. Right. It's so stupid to say, but I thought that. So I did end up eventually sending this email or whatnot in, I think about October. It took them a couple weeks to actually give my info to my patient and vice versa.

I was eating lunch with a friend of mine and I remember having chips and guacamole. By the way, my patient's name is Jim. So they gave Jim my info. And my phone went off in my pocket. There was an email in my inbox, and there was a scanned PDF attached to this email, and I opened it up, and she had filled this out with her own hand

and I just broke. I totally, I just wept like a little baby in a booth in a Mexican restaurant in the middle of Grapevine, Texas. And I got on Facebook. I saw a picture, I saw a picture of her and I was like, oh my gosh, it's got to be her. I'd gotten an email, not email, Facebook friend request from, said this guy named Jim Monroe in Texas. And I was like, Oh, okay.

I don't know anybody in Texas. And then it clicked all of a sudden, this, this is the guy, this is him. I could see his picture. I can look and. Oh, what does he look like? Not very much like me. It wasn't Janelle with shorter hair.

Yeah, right. Yeah. Tall. At least for four, I've got blonder hair. Blonde hair. I think fake blonde. I should say it's dyed right now. But I have like strawberry blonde hair.

But tall blonde hair, blue eyed, white guy. Blue eyes. I'm very handsome. Yeah. What are you, by the way? Short blonde hair, blue eyed person. Short blonde hair, blue eyed. Yeah. What are you by the way? Short blonde haired, blue eyed person. Short blonde haired, blue eyed.

Okay, well, so you're in the scene. Yeah. Yeah, we could be cousins, I think. And yeah, so when I looked at all of his pictures and his wife who's a model and these kids were so adorable and he tried to find as much as I can. And as far as his profession, I was like, oh, he appears to be some sort of magician.

So I guess we'll talk about that later. So I don't even know, like, I guess, why don't we just find out like where you're from and where you were raised and let's do it that way. So I was born in Orange County, California, Fullerton, California. I went to school in Anaheim, high school in Anaheim. I was a baseball player.

So I ended up going. I was a very, very good baseball player. I got drafted by the, at the time, they were called the Tampa Bay Devil Rays. Now they're just the Tampa Bay Rays. Oh, you were that good? Yeah, I turned down a professional baseball contract to go play at the University of Texas in Austin. And what did you play?

I was a pitcher. I was a hard-throwing right-hander. Huh. And ended up getting, like I said, drafted and went to the University of Texas to play baseball. And that's what I thought I was going to be. I thought I was going to be a professional baseball player. And then my sophomore year of college,

I blew out my shoulder. I had a surgery my freshman year and then came back and was thrown harder than ever then did it again So baseball was kind of over Over at like 19 like that's yes, sir. Yeah, it was a pretty it was a big kick in the head But he finished up school they maintained my scholarship as a medical redshirt majored in business and psychology Yeah, then moved up to Boulder, Colorado majored in business and psychology. Yeah.

Then moved up to Boulder, Colorado, got married and had a couple kids. And one of my really good friends during this time was, his name was Tennyson, and he became one of my best friends. He wasn't just my best friend, he was like my brother. He was an athlete too, so he was a former college football player. And he had also lost his football career based upon an injury. And then also knew magic and illusion. And magic was actually something that Jim had been fascinated by ever since he was a kid.

Yeah. I saw a trade show magician when I was 10 or 11. It was at the Anaheim Convention Center of all places at an optometric convention. Both my parents are optometrists. And he was just doing trade show stuff at a booth. Do you remember what he was doing? He did a version of this trick called Cards Across. He made a cigarette appear. Which he pulled out of your head or out of somebody's?

No, no, he's just casually holding his hand and was holding a zigzag in the tips of his fingers. And he goes to light it. And there's a puff of smoke, and there's a real cigarette. And the thought you had at that moment was, I want to do that? It was, how did he do that? And that is cool. And I'm going to go learn how that's done.

So I just began to look at card tricks and read books on how all this stuff was done to figure out how it was done. So when you met Tennyson, they started practicing together and doing shows in front of friends and family. And pretty soon. Sure enough, we start doing gigs. They started doing these shows at like schools

and festivals and stuff. And they would do these tricks, like a lot of kind of card tricks and number tricks, say we pick a random number and it would end up, it was written on a piece of paper in the shoe of an audience member or something like that. But then the show would turn into something else. Because the thing is Tennyson was a believer.

Overwhelmingly so. Like a believer like in God, you mean? Yeah, a Christian. And Tennyson was very convinced. And so after an hour or so of magic tricks. Just pure entertainment. Tennyson would say to the crowd. This has been great.

We're going to take a quick break. We're going to give you guys a chance to take off because during the second part of this show we're going to talk about what the Christian perspective is and why we believe this Christian thing. If you want to stick around, great. If you don't, take off. Now, Jim says during this part of the show, Tennyson in particularly was way more of the evangelistic piece of this and I

considered myself more of a producer. Now Jim had actually grown up going to church. Yes, I was, my parents went to Lutheran Church. I was at one point doing that. It's but still there's, you know, at the end of the day it was just there was nothing in it that seemed to be satisfying. And so at this point in the show, Jim would sort of stand back a bit, as Tennyson talked about how magic is actually all about the unseen and behind the veil of reality,

there's a God watching over us. And Jim says he would be standing there on stage, watching these people in the audience who are feeling this real connection with God. However, I wasn't having that experience. He's just like, I don't feel what they're feeling. And he started to think to himself. I didn't want to be the guy that said,

well, I'm a Christian because my friends were, or I'm a Christian because I was raised that way. I want it to be true. And he just wasn't sure that it was. Right. And then after he and Tennyson had been doing this show for a year and a half or so, Jim got a call. Tennyson had been out hiking in the mountains just outside of Boulder and...

He was found in a river. His body was partially submerged just at the edge of the water at the base of a 40-foot cliff. In a peaceful valley is what it was called. No one really knows how he passed away. It looked like he might have actually fallen from the cliff the police thought maybe suicide But it could be you know exposure to the elements that kind of thing Yeah, Jim says he was just you know Devastated now. He's probably the closest male friend. I've ever had just felt like he was, you know, in the bottom of a hole.

Yeah. Bottom of a hole, kind of figuring it out. Best friend passes away. My wife and I, as a result, kind of got into this really strange season where, you know, I'm depressed, she's depressed. We're pretty much on the verge of calling it quits. And then my leg starts hurting really badly. Where in the leg? Underneath my right knee. Jim says he started popping Advil every day, at first just a couple, then more and more. And I'm trying to gut it out.

Then he came home one day and he says the pain was so bad he couldn't even get out of his car. And so his wife was like, look, we're going to the hospital now. And I'm sitting there in an emergency room and this man walks into my room and he looks at me, he says, you have cancer. Jim had leukemia, which is cancer of the blood cells. So the white blood cells inside of your bone marrow have literally exploded out of control. And the reason why your leg hurts so bad

is because your bone is breaking on its own. From the inside, wow. And he said, if you don't do anything, you're gonna die in two months. Just before Christmas of 2008, Jim checks into the hospital. And right away, they do two things. One, they put Jim on the bone marrow registry in the hopes that he can find a donor.

And two, just to keep him alive while he waits, they start putting him through round after round of chemo. And get this wicked concoction of stuff and then be let out. He loses his hair. His body starts to fall apart. And all you can do at that point is just hope, you know? Like tick, tock, tick, tock, tick, tock. Tick, tock, tick, tock, yeah. Yep.

That's when you think you know what you believe to be true. Is in adversity. That's when you find out. So for me, it was not a Christian worldview. If there is an all-loving, omnipotent, powerful being that makes the universe go round, then why would things like, you know, suicide or murder or rape exist in a, in a, in this constructed world of his? Jim just couldn't get himself to believe in the existence of a God like that or really any God. You know, there wasn't any rhyme or reason or purpose. It's just, this is, this is my lot.

This really sucks. And then when he was at his lowest point I remember driving back to Houston Texas for more chemo and my phone rang and I didn't recognize the number and I said hello and this woman on the other line she said there's a one person that we've been able to identify on the planet out of all the databases, everything, there's one. You are the ideal person in this eight million person registry to donate for this patient. I think about that. It was in the world.

You are a perfect match. Will you do it? And I was like, absolutely. My wife and I were in the car together and it was just tears. You know, it's like, wow, that's amazing. So April 20th, and this is important to remember, April 20th was when I donated. And as they were pulling the cells out of Janelle's body up in Wisconsin... You know, one of those little IV bags full of my stem cells.

Down in Texas, Jim's doctors were telling him... Your bone marrow transplant is scheduled for April 23rd. On April 23rd, the nurses, they come inside of your room to celebrate your second birth. And then I remember Dr. Girard telling me, are you ready to put your boxing gloves on? Well, what he was preparing me for was a death. Come to find out later on, they pulled my wife out of my room. And they said, we're going to give this to him

with all this medication. He could potentially receive this and reject this violently and pass away. Because remember, they're essentially replacing Jim's immune system with somebody else's, in this case Janel's. And in a very real way they're replacing that part of Jim that determines who he is with someone who he clearly isn't. And so there's a real chance that the body will just short circuit.

So they give this drug the nurses nurse's nickname, Shake and Bake. It's designed to basically wipe out whatever is left of Jim's immune system, his white blood cells. But inside of your IV, and your body just starts convulsing. And then they put Janel's cells in. And they monitored me. And over the next couple weeks, Janel's cells

enter Jim's body. They get into his bone marrow, and they start producing new white blood cells, basically producing a whole new immune system. And eventually, Jim is cancer-free. I mean, it's literally like new life, you know? Now, I will say this, some bells kind of began to go off in my head a little bit. Jim says before he even got the transplant, his doctor had come into his room and told him, You're going to be like a baby inside your mother's womb, literally being born again.

Because on April 23rd, and once again, this is their terminology, there's someone else that's going to be living on the inside of you. And this new system of blood is going to be your life. Why is that interesting? You know, April 23rd, my new birthday is April 23rd, my old birthday is April 20th, my new birthday is on April 23rd, that's on the third day. And on the third day is significant because of the biblical echo? The biblical echo, yeah.

I came back from whatever I was in because of the only blood on planet Earth that could save me of my disease. So, you know. Does this land on you the way it sounds to me, like it lands on you now, or did you go through a, like, what happened? Those words, yeah, those words in particularly, bells went off in my head.

But does that mean that you now suddenly believe in God again, or for the first time? I mean, it's process, right? You follow, and then I think the puzzle pieces are kind of all swirling and coming together. But everything changed on that demarcating day, April 23rd. All thanks, obviously, to Janelle. And not long after they got each other's information and saw each other on Facebook, they hopped on a phone call. So she gets on and I get on. But it's all kind of like,

hey, oh my gosh, this is crazy. I cannot believe this. Isn't this nuts? Yeah, this is so crazy. And then she drops this on me. She said, I went and got a tattoo of a jigsaw puzzle piece on the very spot where they stuck that IV in my arm to pull out the new blood, knowing that I was the missing piece in someone

else's life and without me that person wouldn't be alive. And I said, do you, I was like, do you have a ton of tattoos? And she said, no, I have one. You know what Christians believe to be true, right? What? Is that their savior rolled up and showed them the very spot on his body where blood came out so that they would believe.

So you're just going down this road. You're just, you're driving like at a hundred miles an hour towards this. For me, it was like I was being introduced to a person. There was an experiential understanding of that which was going on behind the scenes of this existence that was answering my prayer. The prayer is for, it's the prayer is called,

are you there? That's the prayer. Yep. Are you there? That's the prayer. Yep. Are you there, God? Basically, Jim saw Janelle and her donation to him as almost more than just allegory, as like something close to a literal proof of the existence of God. Like a very real, very present sign. I told her to, I told her that we need to meet.

I said, can I please bring you out to Dallas, Texas? He said, I have to bring you to Texas, which is my nightmare. I'm just kidding. But absolutely, I thought I wanted to go right into it. I remember her tone. She's like, yeah, sure. Super excited.

So yes, I flew her to Dallas, Texas. Lights camera action is coming up. I actually recorded it. Somebody you met. This girl saved my life. Oh really? Yeah. That's awesome.

In the video, you see Jim sort of standing at the bottom of this escalator in the Dallas-Fort Worth airport. He's, you know, looking pretty thin and pale and nervous. And then the camera turns and there's Janelle. Hi. Coming down the camera turns and there's Janelle. Coming down the escalator. And they hug. And then his kids come up. And eventually his Hi, can I walk too? Aww, you're so cute.

Yeah. And eventually his wife. Nice to meet you. Okay, so now you go home. We go to his house, right in Healyps, in a very big house, outside of Dallas. They had dinner with the family, and then, you know, once everybody else was kind of heading off to bed, Jim and Janelle started to talk. And I think, if I remember correctly, we were just outside by the pool and just talking and figuring out who each other was, and I was like, so, you know, magician? What is that?

And he started telling me about what kind of magician he really is, and he is a Christian magician. I'm sure that her mind is just thinking, oh my gosh, I just saved a Christian magician from Texas' life. Joke's on me. Isn't that wonderful? When we come back, Janelle becomes Jim's greatest magic trick. So don't go away. Okay, we're back.

I'm Jack Abumrad. I'm Robert Krollwich. This is Radiolab. And okay, well, let's return to a'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Krollwich. This is Radiolab. And okay, well, let's return to a story from Soren Wheeler. So Soren, you left us in the backyard. They were about to talk, right? Yep. Sitting in Jim's backyard by the pool. And he's basically telling her his whole story about his sort of loss of faith and the cancer and how she saved his life. And then he tells her that right after she saved him, he started doing the magic show again,

that show that he used to do with Tennyson. And the show is called The Maze. My name is Jim Monroe. This is The Maze. So we actually get to see Jim's show, and I have to say, he's a pro. It's an impressive production. He gets big venues.

You over here ready to have some fun tonight?'s a pro. It's an impressive production. He gets big venues. I'll be over here ready to have some fun tonight. Usually 1,000 people or so, there's crazy laser light show stuff. And he does these really complicated illusions that are sort of half Penn and Teller, half David Blaine. For example, picking a random phone number out of the phone book.

And it ends up being someone in the audience. And then their phone will end up like hidden somewhere. Something like that. And they're very good. So Jim is telling Janelle about all these tricks. But then he says... The second half of the show is about us. He explains that the magic show at this point ends. He tells people they can leave if they want to. And he starts to talk openly, confessionally to the audience. Where I quickly found out that I had cancer.

In very personal terms about what happened to him. So my wife and I raced down to MD Anderson Cancer Center. And at a certain point, he shows a video. He's in the hospital, throwing up into a bucket. And he's pale, thin, huge circles under his eyes. And then he explains that right when he was on the edge of death, that at his lowest point this, this thing happened. A miracle happened. Jesus, there is one. One person.

Just one. When his blood was literally poisoning his own body, somebody substituted their blood on his behalf so he could be reborn, I guess. You have blood on your behalf so that you can live again. Three days after his birthday. On the third day, I came back from the dead because the only blood on the planet that could save me from my disease. Three days after his birthday. So there's a whole three days thing there, which is a story of Easter and the rebirth.

It's just, I mean, he sees this as like definitive proof that there's a God. I am either the statistical anomaly that continues to propagate this false ideology about supernaturalism and miracles and all that. I mean, that's statistical anomaly. That's so wild that it's like being bitten by a shark and struck by lightning at the same time, twice in the same lifetime. Or you might have to believe what I believe is true. And that is there is something bigger or lower behind the scenes. And his name is Jesus. and the scenes in his name is Jesus.

So yes, this is all being thrown at me. And is he saying all this to you by the pool? Is it all comes tumbling out? Yeah, yeah. And how are you feeling inside? Stranger and stranger. How are you feeling inside? Stranger and stranger. Going down the wormhole because I am an atheist in the sense that I don't believe in the tenets of Christianity.

I don't believe really in the tenets of any established religion I've ever seen. Honestly, I just think that once things are labeled and your pigeonholed and the exclusivity of really any religion is the cause for a lot of problems throughout history. But faith can be beautiful. And there's definitely parts of me and there's moments in my life that, boy, praying and really feeling like that was

going out to somebody would feel great. But I just can't. I just can't do it. So at that moment, he's telling me this, and he's like, well, you know, you're here in Texas for this weekend, and would you be willing to come on stage for one of my shows so I can introduce you?" And of course I said yes. Really? Of course? Of course you said yes?

Yeah, of course. I've always kind of looked at our story as something bigger than what he believes, than what I don't believe, it's bigger. It's capital B, underlined bold, it's big. Partly because Jim, at every show, he has the bone marrow registry people right there, ready to sign folks up. And because of the show they just saw,

he can get hundreds. I know that dozens of people have gone on to be matches. So this was truly the culmination of, from the moment I signed up to be on that registry, this felt like the zenith of this entire thing. So, next night... At Texas Christian University, packed house... Janelle's in the audience. I was in like the front row.

And during the second part of the show, when Jim goes through the rebirth part, he stops and he says, guess what, everyone? That person who saved my life, she's here. He has me walk up on stage. Proud went wild. The first time in my life I got a standing ovation. Because you're Jesus. That's why the crowd went crazy.

Yes. Because... Yes. Yeah. All of these kids in the audience, who are all pretty much my age as well at that point, are seeing my being on stage as the, quite possibly the biggest proof they've ever had that there is a God. Will you know, was there any part of you that said I shouldn't be here or were you all there?

There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter. But for Janelle, she says that feeling was outweighed just by the number of people that were lining up at the bone marrow donation table. And so the next time she had a chance, she did it again. And again. And again. And again. She's now appeared at the end of the show around a dozen times all around the country playing the role of Jim's personal savior. And she says the more time she did it the more that feeling, that sort of fraud feeling kept popping up, each time a little bit louder.

Yeah. There's parts of me, there's little fibers in my being that are like, wow, if this is a sign, if there is a God, I'm a real jerk. This is such a beautiful and really literal story being told to me about like, hey, you know, maybe there is a God. She says she started to feel that like if she's both perpetuating that story and refusing it, there's special place in hell for me. And this is why Janelle got in touch with us,

because she wanted us to help her figure out a way to tell a story that let her way of seeing the world into the room. So, so let's stay tuned for that. Okay, we're back. I'm Jack Abumran. I'm Robert Krollwitz. This is Radiolab, and we are telling you the story of a woman who saved a man's life. The man is so thankful that he comes back to Jesus, wants Christians across the country to hear his story and wants this lady to help him tell it. But she's an atheist. So we're now going to help her find a way to tell her side of the story.

Okay. Are you guys, is everyone there? I'm here. Jim, can you hear us? Yeah, I can hear you guys. Janelle, can you hear me? I can. How are you?

So our producer, Lettif Nasser, actually started talking to Janelle about what exactly she wanted to do and they decided that we should just all get in the studio, Jim and her and all of us, and see if we could hash it out. Okay. But I guess, like Janelle, do you want to just kind of talk through what we've been thinking? Oh, sure. I can try if you want to help me, Latif.

Sure. So essentially, Latif and I have been talking about what would be the best way for me to kind of tell my side of the story. Yeah. My side of our story, so to speak, without so much of the religious stuff. Yeah, so when are you guys gonna do that? Yeah. We're gonna do that? Maybe I missed the point.

I'm sorry. So do you say we as in like we are gonna do a version of that? Well, I thought you could help me. Oh, cool. Well, I would have no problem. Yeah, I'm kind of just with the... Because you are so not only a magician with magic things, but also with words. Uh-huh So maybe if we could if you could help me, so yeah, totally That's that's so interesting my mind begins to spin and I have it

So at first we suggested maybe Janelle could come out at the end of one of Jim's shows and just read a statement or something And Jim said, you know, that's probably not gonna work as you guys know in this world there's mean audiences come based upon how things are marketed and booked and I don't know. And Jim said, you know, he has to worry about sort of as a business, the expectations of his sponsors and even the audience who are looking for a certain thing. I'm just thinking like a producer,

because I'm totally up for it. So we were like, yeah, okay, fair enough. Maybe we could be like a Q&A after the show or something like that. I don't know, I'd have to really process it, but I'm totally open to it. I would always love to help Janelle figure, I mean help her put it all together and like,

I think though that- So eventually we landed on a plan. Jim was gonna be doing his show up in St. Cloud, Minnesota and we decided, well, we could just do a show with him and Janelle the next night. So along with producers, Lutif Nasser and Annie Mc, well, we could just do a show with him and Janelle the next night. So along with producers Lutif Nasser and Annie McEwen, we headed up to St. Cloud, met up with Janelle, and that night we went to Algosy Gym's show. It was a pretty big venue. There was probably like a thousand people there, all college students.

And of course, because Janelle was there right after he did the sort of personal journey back to God It's a little bit hard to hear but there here. Welcome to the stage. Thank you. So, yeah. I got you excited. I'm so excited. Well, you're the much better speaker than me. But what I can say is I encourage all of you to consider signing up. So Janelle just pointed out that the National Bone Marrow Registry would be there that night, and she encouraged everybody to, you know, sign up and have a chance to save a life and do something good. So please do that, or at least consider it.

Show me a tattoo. And once Once Janelle had stepped back off the stage. say this in your heart, say, Lord Jesus, tonight I choose to turn and stop living for myself, my own version of my own story, and I want to trust you. I don't have all the answers, but I know you do, and tonight, by faith, I choose to follow you. Thank you for loving me. Thank you in the midst of all of this randomness that I experienced coming after me for being jealous for me. I love you too. In Jesus' mighty name, Amen and Amen. Thank you so much.

And then just before everybody stepped out. Awesome! This is very important. I'm going to be here another night. I'm going to be here tonight important. I'm gonna be here another night. I'm gonna be here, we're gonna be here tomorrow night. Have you guys heard of the podcast Radio Lab? Have you heard of Radio Lab? Have you heard of Radio Lab? Have you heard of it? That was about three people that shouted out.

They're in the audience, I'm just gonna sit down. I'm not gonna point them out, but they're in the audience. Nobody cared. Radio Lab is gonna be holding this forum. Janelle Jennings is gonna tell her side of the story of what happens to her through this process, all right? All right. So after the show, we actually got a chance

to talk to some of the people from the audience. And then hearing the whole three days, they're like, I was like, oh my god. That's, wow. Oh my god. Yeah, I couldn't believe that she was actually here. She's here in there. Think about it, I would have been so shocked

to sit right next to her. Pretty much everybody was totally floored by actually getting to see Janelle in person and they all seemed to take her story the way Jim does. She was a visual example of everything. Put a face to this whole thing. So many things fell in line where you just have to believe in my opinion.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Good night. where you just have to believe in my opinion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Good evening everyone, welcome. Good evening, welcome. My name is Mark Springer. With much less fanfare in a much smaller room, like maybe 100 people there or so, with the help of the religious studies program

at St. Cloud University. Hear me okay? Yes, here I am. Oh my gosh. We did Janelle's thing. All right, so I'm Robert Kovach. I am one of the co-hosts of a public radio program that they called Radio Lab.

I want to introduce also Sorin Wheeler, who is our managing editor, who's gonna, that's him, he's gonna be adding his two cents from time to time. We're a very democratic show, and like nobody controls anything, and everybody pitches in, so he will too. And I wanna begin by just telling you a story.

So we brought Janelle up on stage. But Janelle, could you just come up here and sit? I guess might as well sit here. We told her whole story of, you know, donating and then waiting a year to find out, you know, who Jim really was. Talk. I had no idea that. Then we brought Jim on stage. I saw Jim the years up.

He talked about, you know, his whole process of recovery, trying to get is up. He talked about his whole process of recovery. Trying to get your bearings. He talked about how grateful and thankful he was, and then we turned back to Janelle. Well, let's make this a little more complicated. Soren, could you just run the... I asked you how you felt in that first round, and this is what you told me in the interview.

There was a part of me that felt a little bit of an imposter. Well, then why would you use the word imposter? Why did you choose that word? So we should start getting into the meat and potatoes of my thoughts. I think so. Yeah Part of me is um and at that time especially, thought that I'm up here again as this pretty hard and fast proof or very compelling narrative for a lot of people and their faith that I don't particularly share at all. Can I ask a question? Yeah

But I Knowing that you knew it at that point Yeah, yeah, we talked about that, but I was I was very concerned knowing that you You know didn't agree with what I believe to be true that that you would feel like you were in that spot That's why I asked you didn't agree with what I believed to be true, that you would feel like you were in that spot. That's why I asked you. Of course, and I could have declined. Yeah. But at the same time, it doesn't make anything different

in the fact that it's still what it is, you know? Exactly. I would have done it regardless of whatever it was. If your whole theme of your show was how great the Dallas Cowboys were and it got everybody to join the bone marrow registry, I would have got up there in a Cowboys hat. Honestly, Jim, every time I see your show, even though I don't adhere to the religious tenets of it, I still get that feeling and everybody, all my family, all my friends, whatever their

religious, even my Muslim friends that I've told this story get, you know, that feeling. And, you know, what that feeling is, is a little intangible, but I think it's something even a little bigger than... That sounds so crappy to say, bigger than Jesus. That's really blasphemous, but I can't think of a better way to say it. Can you explain what that means? Well, you know, that there is good in this universe and there is good in everybody and it is regardless of the goodness is at the top of the list of you and everything else is follows your religion and your race and where you're born and your favorite

pizza toppings and all of that but at the very top is good, with the capital G as underlined too. Alright, Jim. In your show you have a rather gorgeous take on moral relativism. You have a string of thoughts that this idea about being good and doing no harm and living as ethically as you know how is satisfying to some people but in your view it isn't really enough. Yeah this is where we I mean obviously there's some disagreement here. I think that there is good and I think that there is evil in this world and I think

that people in and of their own left to their own vices left. And I think that people in and of their own, left to their own vices, left to their own devices, I think that they struggle with being good. I think that even on our best day, I think that we fall short. And so in hearing her account, you just say, you just saying, thinking what? That she's not, where does she fall short? Where does she fall? Where does this idea lose you? I don't, I mean, it doesn't lose me. I think it's phenomenally good.

It's, I'm not acknowledging as good. I just think that for the Christian, it's not about being good or bad. I think it's about... What is it about? I think it's about having a relationship with God. Does that make sense? At that point, Jim, you know, he made it clear that he definitely wasn't condemning

Janelle because she didn't have a relationship with God. But then we took a sort of different approach. We started talking about the unlikeliness of this whole story, which is one of the things that Jim talks about in his show. And so at that point, I decided I should jump in I say this and I really say this only Because it is our job as a show that when we hear a story like this We dig in we investigate and we do that from a frame

Really focused on math facts science and a couple things happen to you if you happen to be in my position You run across stuff like this and I'll just read from the Be a Match website. A patient's likelihood of finding a match donor on Be the Match registry is estimated to be between 66 and 97 percent. The chances that you'll find a 10 to 10 match in the way that Jim and Janelle were 10 to 10 matches is around 50 percent. Wait a second. wait a second. That doesn't make sense to me.

There were eight million people, she was the one. Yeah, let me say that this does not actually contradict with Jim and Janelle's experience of it. For that to happen to Jim is truly staggering. It is truly, it could be one in a trillion, and you know, like the way winning a lottery is one in a trillion. But how can't it be way you're winning a lottery is one in a trillion. But how can, can't be both one in a trillion?

It can because what happens is if you back up away from the individual and ask not, what are the chances this would happen to Jim, but what are the chances that this would happen to someone somewhere. It's like there's a story about if you're golfing and you hit a golf ball, and it goes however many hundreds of yards,

I don't play golf, so I don't know how far they go, but it lands on a blade of grass, and that blade of grass says, why me? Why would this golf ball crush me like this? Which is a valid point. I would feel that too. But that ball was going to land on some blade of grass. So you, it doesn't like there, the why me is still a true thing. It is a true experience in which. There is still this difference, I think. The ball can't point to anything greater in the universe. No, the argument that lurks behind this

is that these things happen and it is just chance. So this is the random view. How do you guys feel about that? That you were randomly there and you were randomly chosen isn't the word. You were, that the ball of mercy landed on you. I don't, but I'm not, I also not coming at it from just that angle. I wonder if it was just the bone marrow transplant, if it would be, people get that all the time. I think perhaps the other bits and pieces of the puzzle maybe help shadow it in a little bit for me.

And so, I don't know, to me it's a multi-layered cake. I thought you really don't like this idea of, like in this science version, there is no design and there is no first cause except the first random event that sets the thing in motion. Right. Do you both, could you either of you live with that version of what just happened to you? Yeah, well that's perfect because it's exactly what you talk about in your show with all the different cards.

Janelle's referring to a thing in Jim's show where he talks about how unlikely any particular order of cards in a deck is. The idea of a particular set of cards being dealt in a particular way is 52 factorial. Which is pretty much impossible. It is impossible. I mean, it's an impossible number. Statistically. Statistically, right, right. But yet you deal the cards and they happen right there. So this really gets into just the different viewpoints on the

proverbial deck of cards and who's dealing them. Is it in a particular fashion? And I think that's, you know, what Jim believes is that there is a proverbial dealer and I don't, I guess. Mm-hmm. And you agree that that's pretty much the difference? Yeah, I mean, having given thought to that, I believe that there was some sort of, you know, mind, personality. And the I believe part is where you stand. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It is its faith.

And Janelle, you're his savior, I guess, and you saved his life. But in some way, you don't you you haven't. How do you worry about this at all? Yeah, absolutely. And even right now on this stage, there's a part of me that in front of all of you that I'm sure a lot of you are at the show last night, there's a part of me that in front of all of you, that I'm sure a lot of you were at the show last night, there's a part of me that is afraid of disappointing that I don't share what you believe to be true. I mean, your entire experience pretty much points the arrow that I'm like an alliteration of Jesus in your story. And that's really

difficult to reconcile as someone who doesn't your story. And that's really difficult to reconcile as someone who doesn't have faith. And it makes me sad sometimes. Cause I think it would be a lot easier if I just believed exactly what you believed. And I think that I always am very afraid of letting that be known. Like I'm super clammy right now,

just saying it in front of this many people. I just feel like people would see your story and it's so tremendously compelling. It's unbelievable and then see that that last piece of this little puzzle literally doesn't fit at all. I mean, it's not like I haven't thought about that either and how you might feel. And I empathize and I don't know how to answer that. You know, I just want to give you a hug.

There's an unconditionality to how I feel about you that I just, you can do no wrong in my eyes. Here's the, for you, the hardest thing. I was just trying to think of how difficult this must be. You have been saved, your life has been saved by her. She is in effect your savior, and yet your belief is that unless she accepts Jesus, that in some sense she's outside of grace, you know I don't know I

don't know what you believe about hell and heaven but that she might be punished so what do you do about this weird contradiction she's insisting no not for me and you're just saying oh no this is the way it is and oh my gosh is was it hard for you no not at all I'll tell you why because it's not my place to do that I'm very sorry to everyone who listens to this, whoever feels like they got judged by a Christian, because it's never their place to do that. And this is where I think most of the times, and everybody that listens to this podcast is placed as kind of positioned or pigeonholed Christians. And what they don't understand is that I'm not commanded to do anything

But to love and to start conversations Right. I'm not the one I'm not the I'm not the one who is sent into the world to judge. All right, but what I so So putting it like that, I know I know where you want to go with this No, I'm just this is not actually an honest question Yeah, you have to love the judge that may not love the woman who saved your life. That's hard, I think. Yeah, but at the same time, that's not what I'm—that's not my place. I had to say, I think we were sort of expecting that maybe there would be a sharper edge to the differences between Jim and Janelle.

But to be honest, their conversation that night and their story started to feel like almost an allegory for how to move through the world and hold your differences but still be one. Let me just finish this way. Do you have a sense between the two of you? Because obviously you stay very, very good friends. I mean, that's obvious. Is there something that either of you can say

that explains why you can dignifiably but emphatically disagree and still stay in such extraordinary close touch? still stay in such extraordinary close touch. I think the idea of humility and as Jim might even say, grace is absolutely essential, no matter your tenets of belief. And that's really what's gonna get you through conflict. So, yeah.

Is it because you're in this big ocean of the world and the two of you are just little dots in it? And so, whatever you think, it's still, you're in the big ocean and there you are together? Is that the...? I think maybe, yeah. Yeah. And... Do you have a bigness thing? Do you feel small? Do I feel small? Yeah. I feel small? Yeah.

I feel tiny. Humility at its root word is, it comes from, the root is humus, which means dirt. So when you become humble, you become dirt. That's better than to see it now. I can keep going, I can keep going. God does what dirt is, he creates things, but I won't go there.

But you become dirt. And I think where we get hung up is that we want to be right. And that hasn't been brought into this yet. We want to be right. And right and wrong are,. And right and wrong are... The words right and wrong are dead... I think in relationship are deadly words. I think that saying, I'm right, you're wrong is not good for relationships. I think it's like, let's find where we...

Have you ever said you're right or you're wrong to her? No. I haven't said it to him either, I don't think. Never. Well, that's a nice place either, I don't think. Never. That's a nice place to land. I think so. I think we're done.

Now that doesn't mean we're done done. That means that I'm going to let these two people introduce the person who brought them together real world from the organization. At the end of the show, we had the bone marrow registry people there and encouraged people to sign up. And quite a few did. I think maybe 20 or so. But that was pretty much nothing compared to what Jim got at the end of his show.

There's like 150 people. Wait, say that again. There's like 150 people signing up right now. Did you count them? That's our producer, Annie McEwen. It's at least that. Is this bigger than normal or is it always like this? This is a little bigger than normal.

I think any time that I'm actually in the show, it's a little bit better. So I've been told. And what is it? How are you feeling when you watch this? It's really overwhelming. Like, yeah, it kind of makes me want to cry. Yeah.

Yeah. I mean, without you, this wouldn't happen. It's almost too go to the gym. Well, thank you, Soren. Sure, no problem. This piece was reported by Lutif Nasser, produced by Annie McEwen with help from Bethel Hopte and Alex Overington. Special thanks to Julie Schmidt with Be The Match. And by the way, they are one of the several bone marrow registries.

This is the one that Jim and Janelle were connected through. It is called Be The Match. And if you want to donate, all you have to do is go to join.bethematch.org. That's capital B, capital T, capital M, one word, and you'll get a spit swab thing in the mail, and maybe, well maybe you couldn't save a life. It's free if you are under 45. So again, that's Join.BeTheMatch.org. Also thanks to Ginger Galvin, Bryce Harney,

and Stu True with The Maze. And to Mark Springer, Kevin Sharp, Jim Gray, Kelly Larson, and the rest of the wonderful faculty and staff at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota. And to Mark Springer, Kevin Sharp, Jim Gray, Kelly Larson, and the rest of the wonderful faculty and staff at St. Cloud State University in Minnesota. All right, I'm Jad Abumrad. I'm Robert Kralwich. Thanks for listening.

Hey, I'm Lemon and I'm from Richmond, Indiana, and here are the staff credits. Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and lots of Nasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keefe is our Director of Sound Design. Our staff includes... Anna and someone done that guilty Rebecca lacks any McEwen Alex Nielsen Sarah Kari Sarah Sandback and he's a pizza every and whack Pat Walters and

Molly Webster our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly Emily Krieger and Natalie Middleton hi my name is Teresa I'm calling from Colchester in Essex UK leadership support for radio lab science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, the Seymans Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.