Radiolab - New Normal

Episode Date: December 30, 2022

This episode —first released in 2009 and then again in 2015, with an update — asks, what is “normal”? Maybe it exists, maybe not. We examine peace-loving baboons with Stanford neuroscientist Robert Sapolsky, talk to Stu Rasmussen, whose preferred pronouns were he/him (https://zpr.io/nUdsZawNmhwt), and his neighbors in Silverton, Oregon about how a town chooses its community over outsider opinions. And lastly, we speak with an evolutionary anthropologist, Duke University’s own Brian Hare, and an evolutionary biologist Tecumseh Fitch, then at the University of St. Andrews, Scotland, now at the University of Vienna, Austria, about foxes who love to snuggle.And what we find is that normal — maybe the only normal — is change. EPISODE CREDITS Reported by - Aaron CohenProduced by - Soren Wheelerwith help from - Annie McEwenCITATIONSArticles -Stu Rasmussen’s NYT Obituary (https://zpr.io/nUdsZawNmhwt). Theater - Andrew Russel’s “Stu for Silverton” (https://zpr.io/Jn5JP276pwhj) the play based on Stu Rasmussen’s life.    Our newsletter comes out every Wednesday. It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)! Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today.Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [e-mail] Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

You're listening to Radio Lab from WNYC. Okay, you ready? Yep. Alright, let's open the show today. Test test test. On a sunny street corner in New Jersey. So where are we now? We are on Washington Street, which is the main thoroughfare in Hoboken. It's a nice day and Hoboken people are out and about after work.

Because that's St. Grilla, what are you guys doing here? And we're here with a guy, his name is John Horton. I'm a science journalist. He's also a teacher. Oh, it is hot. And John is out today with our producer, Lululu Miller, doing what he often does. Hey, we're coming someone higher. Which is to go up to someone he doesn't know. Give me, sir.

We're doing a survey. We're only taking a minute at most. A minute I can give you. And he asked them this one question. Here's the question. Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all? No. question, will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all? No, because of greed and one upsmanship. To explain John has been asking this question, will humans ever stop fighting wars for years?

Because for him, this question, it's not just about war, it gets it something really basic. Do we feel we can change who we are? In any case, the first time I popped out of his mouth, it was 2003, and a friend had asked him to give a talk at a church just a few days after the first invasion of Iraq. And so here I was in this church, and I can remember that mood was very somber. I was determined to try to make people feel that okay, this is a setback but still you've got to believe that peace is possible and I tried to list all the reasons.

And as he was making his case and getting worked up, he looked at the 60 or so people who were there in the audience. He said, all right, how many of you here believe that war will end someday? And I think one or two people raised their hands at a 60. And John thought, wait, is this really who we are? And so that's actually when I started reading as much as I can about all these things and dug up some surveys from the 1980s. What he found was about 20 years ago. People were asking this question.

Do you think war will ever end? Taking surveys. No granted they were not the most scientific of surveys, but what the results seem to indicate is that we used to be optimistic. Back in the 80s. Only one in three thought that war is inevitable. It is a minority. Yeah.

Whereas today. Will humans ever stop fighting wars once and for all? If you take that question to the streets of Hoboken as we did, you'll find... No. No. No. No. About nine out of ten people No, say no. Yeah, yeah, I think so. No, no, no, no

Never no now depressingly the worst part is it when he asked in the next question Why do you think this? Invariably he gets something like I think there's a human nature is to for greed and to always want more it's just human nature a lot of people are big dumb animals and they're just gonna keep fighting over useless things in our genes it's just the way people are and I don't think we're ever gonna learn why do you say that I just think that it's too ingrained in our human nature so so so so so we want to challenge that last statement too ingrained in our human nature So. So. So. So. So.

So. So, we want to challenge that last statement. Too ingrained in our human nature. That one. Okay, we know some things have been handed down to us from our primate ancestors, violence, maybe. Who knows. Question is, how ingrained is that stuff?

Well, yeah. I mean, if you think that we have inherited something, yeah, what can we do about it? Are we stuck or... Or can we change if we make the right choices. Yeah. So what we've got for you this hour are three stories. We're choice, individual choice challenges destiny. Right.

Maybe. We know. Yeah. I'm Jada Bumrod. I'm Robert Kroelwicz. This is Radio Lab. Stick around. To get things started, let's just take the question that was just in the air.

Are we human beings violent, forever and forever and forever, amen? Is that just who we are? That's a good question. It's a good question, right? And the people who usually say yes, we say yes because, in part, because of our ancestors. We like them, they're like us, that's how it goes. On the other hand, let me tell you a story. I was hoping there would be another ham.

Yes, do you remember this guy? Robert Sapolsky on the other side. Yeah, that's where Shrobertsch Sapolsky. We've had him on the show a couple times. He's a neuroscientist spends most of the year at Stanford. Being a lab rat scientist, doing neurobiology in the lab. But in the summers. More summers.

My go-and-spin time in East Africa in the Serengeti studying wild baboons there. Why is it what is he working on what's his reason to most supposed he is interested in studying stress the effect that stress has on the body and turns out baboons are a perfect source of data because They're always under stress. You know the one thing we know about baboons and have known forever is that they fight. Baboons constantly. Not just metaphorically, but literally have been the textbook example of a highly aggressive male-dominated hierarchical society. Because these animals hunt, because they live in these aggressive troops on the Savannah parentheses, just like

we humans use do and thus we evolved very similarly, they have a constant baseline level of aggression which inevitably spills over into their social lives. Which is why he studied them. So what Spotsky does basically is he goes into the bush, and he watches. I mean, here are field notebooks, and there's a floor of them there in a whole shelf there. His office is covered with these field notebooks. Each one containing detailed notes of who groomed who? And who's not getting along with who,

and who's messing around with who in the bushes. And he tells the following story of a particular moment in his baboon watching, which completely changed his life, changed how he sees the world. It happened about 30 years ago, spulskie was a young guy just at a grad school studying his first troop. My first baboons. A troop he really loved.

These were animals I was very connected with. In most ways, it was a pretty average group. Yeah, your basic baboon troop, the females were highly affiliated with each other. They had a very stable ranking system. The males, meanwhile, the highly aggressive dumping on each other. Because that's just what males do. Right. And you're so we thought.

Okay, mid-80s, a big boom in tourism in Kenya. Wonders for the economy, lots of new lodges, lots of lodged expansions, and there happened to be the next territory over the tourist lodge. In this one particular lodge, it says, have gotten really big, really fast. And during that time, the lodge greatly expanded

their garbage dump. Which means basically that they just dug a hole out behind the lodge. And each day, a tractor came out with the leftovers and dumped it there. So what we're talking about here, if you can easily imagine, is a big steaming pile of trash, half eaten food, baking in the sun, smell wafting in the breeze for miles and miles and into the nostrils of beiboons everywhere.

So it was not long before a troop of baboons, not supposed, but one nearby. Discovered the garbage and just started feeding on it. And here they are eating leftover desserts and chicken whatever it was. To find out. All of the dump full of food must be to a baboon like, like, wandering into heaven. Manna in the wilderness. So this troop almost immediately shifted their entire behavior to they just slept in the trees above the garbage dump. And instead of getting up at six in the morning to start foraging,

they would waddle down around two minutes of nine. And the tractor would show up at nine o'clock and dump the food. And they would have 20 minutes of sheer frenzy And then they'd go back to sort of being couch potatoes And this is how it went for a while so they're over there living off of Garibich and Somehow some of the males and my troop figure this out these males think we got to get in on this We've got to go over there and take their food. What emerged was each morning

a bunch of males would run a kilometer or so to the garbage dump and fight their way in. It gets under the garbage. So every morning there would be a showdown basically. Yeah, and they would come back with canine slashes and stuff like that. But they'd also have drumsticks, cakes, hamburgers. And this ritual, says the Bosky one on three years. And then a few years into it, I got

worth that there were a couple of baboons in this garbage dump troop that looked awful and something was wrong with them. Some guys from the lodge had called him and said, hey, you better get down here and look at this. And when he got there, what he saw was horrible. Animals with rotting hands, walking on their elbows. I mean, just really bad. So trying to figure out what this is about, get veterinarians involved,

and we finally figure out it's tuberculosis. Turns out some infected meat had been thrown in the dump and then eaten by the baboons and this was really bad news. Because while tuberculosis and people is a really slow moving disease, he be kills non-human primates in weeks and it's a nightmare of a disease for them. In just a short time, the garbage-jump troop was completely decimated, not to mention that the tough guys in Sapolsky's troop, the ones that had gone to the dump every morning, they got it too of the same kind of rotting hands and they all die of it.

That must have been really kind of tragic to witness. This was not a good period for me. These were my animals. I had grown up with these guys. But, you know, while Sapolsky was heartbroken, now that half of the alpha males in his troop were dead, he didn't notice some strange things started to happen. Changes. Well, grooming spiked. So you and I sit on a branch and I take little fleas out of your fur.

Yes well usually when a female grooms a male, the males never reciprocate. But suddenly they were. Even weirder. You saw adult males sitting in contact with each other and grooming each other. You know how rare that is? Be like if suddenly in the middle of round five of a heavyweight belt Mike Tyson just decided to stop boxing And Nuzzle has his own. The Corcoe Vanderholy feels here. Who would be like that? If you were a baboonologist, it would have been less shocking if these guys had wings

or were photosynthetic or something. Up to then I had seen like 30 seconds of male male grooming in the course of 15 years. But at the time, Sapolsky kind of wrote it off. This was just some freak event that wasn't gonna last. So he actually stopped studying this. Even after that big investment of time. Yeah, scientifically they were ruined

by such a non-natural event, removing half the study subjects. You know, as a scientist, it became less interesting to you. You know, that was the rationale. It was just too painful to go and watch these guys. So I moved to the other end of the reserve, about 40 miles away and started with a new troop there. And for six years, I would not go anywhere near this corner

or the park, because I just didn't want to be there. Now, fast forward six years, and we come to the moment that really changed things for him, really flipped him into a different way of thinking. And it happened kind of by accident. So about six years later, out there for the first time with

who was soon destined to become my wife, and decided I wanted to kind of show her where I had grown up what part of the park. You wanted to go to the old haunt. Yeah, basically. So, went there and the troop was there. And they were acting pretty much the same as before.

Lots of grooming, not so much fighting. And isn't that nice and they're still like this great remnant troop. And he's sitting there with his wife, just pointing out all the different baboons on there, Steve on there, so I don't know, whoever. And then it hits him. This epithel, whatever. Wait a second. There was only one male left

who'd been there at the time of the TB outbreak. Dun-dun! Dun-dun! I don't follow this, what? One male. Stick with me for just one second and you will get it. The thing about male baboons, first thing you gotta understand is around puberty,

the males get a little antsy. They get itchy, they're bored, and they just pick up and leave. So in a troop, any of the adult males grew up someplace else. Which meant that these new guys that were coming into Sapolsky's troop were coming in from the outside, from the old world order. A jerky, real, doggy dog world out there. So you got to figure these new males are coming in with old expectations that they're

going to have to kick ass to be respected, which would mean that this whole kumbaya situation should evaporate. The moment these guys show up, But it didn't. It's stuck. Oh my god. The new guys are learning. We don't do stuff like that here. And if the new guys are learning a new way, well that means the old way, the violent

way, isn't the only way. And this, this floored me. This is one of those moments. It will be one of the three or four best signs. It's one of my life. The key question was how do these guys unlearn their entire childhood culture of aggression, blah, blah, and somehow learn? We don't do stuff like that around here.

Well, what? Well, how do they unlearn something that was supposedly built in? Well, he doesn't really know exactly, but here's Sapolsky's hunch. Here's his hunch, and this is really cool. It may have to do with that precarious moment when the new guy comes in. Now, normally what happens in this sort of status quo

is that the new guy arrives and it's just a really bad experience for him. It's awful. I mean you look at them and you just identify with like freshman year at college or something. They're completely peripheral every male who's higher ranking dumps on them. And even worse, this freshman Maboon is completely ignored by the ladies. And you just sit there and say, somebody groomed him. My God, I went to a sophomore year until somebody groomed him.

Come on. Why don't they groom? Well, because if they did, some adult male would have attacked them. Oh. So the ladies came back while he's out there biting and clinging and trying to scratch his way in. And what you've got here is a cycle that has existed for a long, long time.

But if you make one small change, just remove the alpha male, take him out of the equation, suddenly. The females are more relaxed and more likely to take a social gamble of reaching out to somebody new. The key thing is the females. Sposky thinks that it's all about timing. If the females can get to the new guy early enough, everything is different. It's remarkable in your typical troop, it's three months on the average

before the first female grooms you. In this troop, six days. Can't out, six days as a compared to three months. Yeah, and a world in which from day one as an adolescent male, you're treated better. Something about the aggressiveness melts away. The thing though is, Jabba, before we get too carried away, we do have to ask the question just how permanent this change is as nice as it is. So I explain this whole story that you've just told to a professor at Harvard

named Richard Rangham. Yep, Professor Rangham is here. He's an evolutionary biologist, studies chimps particularly. So I asked him, well, okay, you've heard the story about the baboons. What do you think? Yeah, I know. It's a nice example of the potential for some change. Clearly, we should put boundaries on it. You know, lots of baboons have been cited across Africa.

And this sort of example has never been found in a natural context. But I mean, I think these guys wild baboons that just happened upon a garbage dump. Yeah, it's just not a very natural context to have humans provide food that leads to several males dying. But that means that I could imagine going on a helicopter all over Africa, shooting all

the alpha males, and then giving all the ladies a chance to create a different baboon culture. And me, what I guess I'm wondering is do you think, in an absurd situation like that, that the baboonery might change its essential nature? I don't think it'll change its essential nature. I can see that there can be a cultural influence that may last a little bit of time, but the larger influence clearly is the set off of genes that produce a particular kind of brain. A baboon is basically a baboon until you get some kind of genetic change, and that is basically a baboon until you get some kind of genetic change. And that is something that Sapolsky has not seen there.

So Professor Rangham wants a genetic change to make sure that this is really... But real permanent. Yeah, but here's the thing. I don't know if this constitutes a genetic change, but it has been 20 years. Really? Yes, 20 years in Sapolsky's original baboon troop is still operating in this peaceful mode, even though dozens of new males have come and gone at this point. And the idea that something that was thought to be so unchangeable could change and change quickly,

and then stay changed as a result of something so airy and undefinable is culture. Well, that has caused Robert Sapolsky, dare I say it, to hope. Absolutely, and it's not something that I do by nature. We're not hopeful guy by nature. No, not at all. In fact, this story got him so hopeful. He decided to send it to Foreign Affairs Magazine, which is magazine read by a lot of politicians.

Yeah, and they went for it. And so we had to ask him after it was published. Did anyone write you back? No, basically not. I basically heard nothing from anyone. No. No. Yes, big yawning silence.

I'm sure George Bush and Cheney read a teach evening and tremble at his implications, but no, basically, as far as I can tell, it was a huge waste of time for me to write it. Ah. Well, we read it. Yeah, thanks. My mother didn't even...

Alright, so, uh, so six or seven years have passed and so we decided that it was only right for us to catch up with Robert Sapolsky. Hello, well hello! Hi! Is the person next to you taping? Yeah, no, we're trying to close a window here to decrease some noise. Just to close this one. We found in a very odd place actually for a baboon scientist in the library of the middle school with a bunch of kids outside. How did that happen?

My wife now directs the musical theater productions. So somehow I'm playing piano as a rehearsal pianist at this school. What's the musical? We are doing Oliver this year really. Anyway, this has nothing to do with anything we should. Okay so anyway so I told Robert that we talked to Richard Rangham reminded him that Rangham says no no baboons are hardwired to be a certain way and and circumstances never going to change them in the end. Yep well he and, this isn't the first time we've disagreed. And I think we probably had a we shall see sort of finish. So what have we seen since you last talked to us?

So what's been happening? Yeah, what's been happening? Well, he says, well, there were a few possibilities here. There's one scenario where it could have turned into exactly what was being predicted there, which was that the troop would go back to being a typical highly aggressive baboon troop. The other possibility is the one that I was always like dreaming of, which is, so you're a kid who's grown up in that troop and you've grown up on the commune there and along comes puberty and it's time for you to pick up and you move to a different

troop and what happens when the kids who grew up in this baboon culture switched to other troops. Now, suppose he admits that if just one baboon from the nice tree went off to join the meanies, he'd probably get his ass kicked, but he thinks that if you get two nice baboons together, they make a little bit of a team, and it would be kind of like a critical mass of niceness that just might spread and turn all the other guys nice. In principle, this like great unique Pacific culture in these baboons could be transmissible in theory.

Love that. Okay, well don't leave us hanging. What has happened? Okay, so what actually happened is pretty damn grim. Oh, did they go back to being mean? In some sense it's really worse than that. Remember how this whole thing begins because there's a troop next to Sapolsky's troop and they've been eating garbage in a garbage dump.

Right. Well, eventually Sapolsky's troop, because now the garbage dump is open and available, they went over there and began living at the tourist lodge and just living off of garbage, now they just sort of squat with the garbage and essentially stopped functioning as a coherent troop. So this question of will they all become nice baboons eventually or will they all revert back to being mean baboons that got totally trumped by the garbage situation. There was so much food to eat for these baboons and it came so free and so available that the natural business of baboonery just broke down. A lot of the males wound up being killed by game park rangers there because as

preusable with the sort of thing they got dangerous to the humans there because they got too habituated to humans. So lots of males were killed. The rest of the troop is just sort of fragmented. So I never got to find out what would happen in the long run. Because the garbage got in the way again? Yep, exactly. That's so annoying, really right, senior editor. Well, so the troubling thing here for me is that, you know, there was a traditional baboon culture

which was violent and hierarchical. There was this hint of a hope of a different baboon culture which was grooming and unhappiness. And we had a question about which one of those two would spread or last, but the truth is they ran into some junk food and then they have no culture. Exactly.

Which I had to say it, that sounds depressingly like America. Yeah. I mean, there's bunches of them still there. I'm sure as we speak, actually not as we speak, but 10 hours from now, they'll be Waddling over to get some leftovers. They're probably not missing the culture that they had, but yeah, those were my guys I

Had my last season out there four years ago and haven't been back since You know, it sounds like you need some a a little, you know, a little picker-opper to quote, uh, the artful, I wouldn't know who's, we would do anything for you, anything. We would climb a hill, we have a death of a dill. So, you so you know, just leave you all our will. Okay, oh god, that's it. Leave you all our will. Okay. Oh God. That's it. I just managed to get that stupid song out of my head for rehearsal earlier today.

Thanks a lot. Oh, would you climb up here? Anyway. Right back. Hey, I'm Chad Abumarad. I'm Robert Krollwitt. This is Radio Lab, our topic today. Choice and human destiny.

Yeah, with the way we are. Is that the way we're going to stay? Ah, very nicely put. Yes. In the last section, we were talking about baboons and their propensity to serious change, which is a maybe or a maybe not. We don't really know. Yeah, well known a thousand years.

But let's switch our ape. We'll go to Oregonians, which is a rare subset of human beings. To set it up, we were thinking a lot about small groups on this show. You know, because that's what we are, we are small group primates. That's the phrase that sometimes used to describe

as humans, and it's a phrase that can carry some negative connotations. As in, we evolved in these small groups, so we are predisposed to be small-minded. No, small is not always a bad thing. I'm gonna tell you a story now that's a small group story. It's just as a warning, contains a moment or two that's a tiny bit graphic.

But, we hope you'll stick with it, because it's a really cool story. It takes place in a small town, like really small. The kind of town? Where you can dial the wrong number and still have a conversation. Because you know everybody. So tell me where we are and

and beautiful. A town town, Silverton. Essentially our downtown has not changed since the late 40s, early 50s. Oh yes it has. But we'll get to that. This is Stu Rasmussen. He is our main character.

And a little while back, Stu gave myself and producer Aaron Scott a tour. He'll be theater on the corner, the old hardware store on this corner. This tour of his favorite place on Earth, Silverton Oregon, which is about 40 miles from Portland. It's about 40 years from Portland, actually. You know, it's the town I grew up in, and this is my image for what I want Silver to be. I rode my bicycle down this street and came to the hardware store to go. We're doing good, Vince. Is that having too a lot?

People just honk and wave. All the time. It's a small town. Everybody knows me. If we were up to two, this town would never change. It would stay frozen in that quaint Norman Rockwell-Candy-coded image from his boyhood. The weird thing though, is that that image in his head would probably never have included a guy like Stu.

At least Stu as he is now. And if this is a show about change, here is a story about a pretty radical bit of change where you wouldn't expect to find it. Speaking of which, can you describe where we are and what we're looking at? Well While we're standing in front of the Palace Theatre on the corner of Okanwater Street. This is one of those gone with the wind theaters, where it's the big marquee and the bulb lights and everything. Built in 1935 and in continuous operation ever since. Stupel's out some keys and opens it up. He suggested that we do the interview here in the town's only theater. He even smells like a gilded-age theater.

Which at 1 p.m. still smelled like popcorn from the previous night and was filled with nothing. A 200 empty red velvet seat. It's not what you expect in a small town theater. Yeah, this is beautiful. Are you going to go ahead and film a light talk? Yeah. Okay, see you later. Okay, thank you.

You plopped ourselves right here. What do you think? Best seats in the house, right in the middle. Let. Sit and pretend we're watching the movie of your life. Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Well, there's a dull movie. Hardly. So, the movie of Stu begins in 1975, he's 27, and he's in a theater just like that.

Seminole moment in my life was when the Rocky Horror Picture Show came out. ["The Rocky Horror picture show came out. Still is in the projectionist booth, because that's his job. He's changing the rails and at some point, during one of the musical members, he glances at the screen. And it was like, oh, what was the, what was the, oh? Here was this movie with a guy in drag on screen. with a guy in drag on screen. He's a sweet transvestite.

A transsexual transylvania. Those are words that I've never heard. I watch that again and again. Fast four or ten years, Stu now owns the theater, just like his dad had before him. He's an upstanding member of the town. He's on the Silver Tin City Council, then on the Library Board, and then he starts to transform, and everyone will tell you it began with the nails. I think I probably started having my nails done in 94 or 95, and it started out with very masculine nails without polish and square ends,

and then slowly grew them out, and then I went into what I considered a masculine nail color of blue. And then he says he gradually started to paint them red, and then he put acrylic tips, which got longer and longer. This was the first test of the community. Hello, Laurie. Good evening, sir. How are you?

Good for you. Because I would be at the theater taking tickets. Can I have two tickets? Be dressed as usual in his plaid shirt jeans. And this hand would come out for their ticket. And what in the hell are those? You can't miss it. And you know, you had a long finger dance.

Hello. That's Dennis Bean, longtime Silvertonian. One time when I had to give him my ticket. And that's Megan DeSalvo, she's 17. And he ripped it and like his nails like went down the palm of my hand and just gave me the chills. Yeah, I'd probably think nails were the first thing most people noticed. Kyle Palmer, Veterinarian, and City Councilman.

Born and raised here in Silver Tech. Was there talk? Was it, I mean, people sitting here. Oh, definitely talk. But it happened so gradually. Which is something you hear again and again. It happened gradually. You know, first it was the nails and then at some point in time he changed the focus of

the movie theater and was really making a game attempt to get new releases. And now the theater and do it. Frequently, you know, when there was a theme kind of movie, he would get into costume. My name is Ken Hector, former mayor of Sorten, Oregon. And very often, the costume would be female attire. This was step two of Stu's very careful transition, according to everyone we spoke with for years, after the nails he would quote, promote that week's movie by dressing up. One of the new Star Wars movies was out and it wasn't a coincidence you've dressed as Queen Amadala.

Come back. I love you. Whatever name is from the movie. Here's the go. Remember some years ago there was a movie called My Big Fat Greek Wedding. That's John Bach. Also a lifelong silvertonian. That whole day he wandered around town in a wedding dress. Complete with a veil. That of course got everybody talking. You know a lot of people laughed about it.

And at first I don't think people put it together with, this is Linda Webb. She's a registered nurse. Sexuality, transgender, or any of those things. I think we thought he was just dressing up to go along with his movies. There was clearly a let's go by the movie theater tonight because we've got to know what stew's wearing.

But first, this was just the beginning of something. He wasn't just clowning around. When did your gender complexities begin? Probably 14 or 15. I think I was a shy young man, and interfacing with girls. My mother was a bit strange on that, and that girls were evil, and no girl was good enough for her son and dead, dead, dead, dead. So did you date it all? Not until I was out of high school. So girls were kind of scary,

it sounds like. Oh, girls were scary. Yeah. Well, everybody else went on dates, he says. He would build computers from scratch and even today, in his basement, you'll find an entire electrical shop. Oh my god. Fun stuff. RF generators, spectrum analyzer, logic analyzer, logic analyzer. In any case, Stu says the best that he can explain himself, gender wise, is just to say that when he looks in the mirror, he likes himself better when he's dressed as a woman. I don't know how to describe it. It's just, I can't understand it.

I mean, some people like to dress up and look like a cowboy or lumberjack, whatever. You know, it's your mental image of yourself that you look in the mirror and you like. So, after the nails, after dozens of episodes of social-exemptable cross-dressing, Stu took the next step. He began to perform some experiments, like he would go to the lumber yard just to get some stuff. A couple of pounds of nails or something. All the while, he would be wearing a padded bra under his flannel shirt.

Just to see what would happen. So this for you was like a test. It was like a calculated test to gauge if it was possible. If I could survive with breasts. So when he was 52, he drove into Portland, visited a doctor, They could survive with breasts. So when he was 52, he drove into Portland, visited a doctor, put him to sleep, and the doctors made two small incisions. One under each breast about an inch and a half or two inches long.

And they pulled back the skin on each side, slid in an uninflated balloon. And then pumped it up with water until the skin was stretched to the point that it was almost transparent. Hmm. That sounds very painful, was it? Well, I was asleep at the time. But when he woke up, he was a different man. Because he now had several pounds of new stuff hanging off his chest.

What were you thinking at that moment? I was thinking, what have I done? There was no going back. I couldn't remember being in Max Max Place downtown at a table and he was coming across the street with his breasts prominently showing. And it was the first time any of us realized that he had actually had surgery and when Lady was going, look, look, and the other Lady was going, don't look, don't look. You know, you'd see Stu going across the street and, oh my God, look at Stu.

My God, what does he do? It just sort of shock him. There was a buzz around him. Was it a situation where he'd walk by and then heads would turn, hushed voices would ensue? Yes, basically. This is Victoria Sage, Stu's longtime girlfriend. They've been together for 36 years. So we would be walking in our local goodwill and would be a few miles away from each other.

And I would hear that used to be Stu Rasmussen. Like he had changed somehow. Is Stu's just trying to fulfill that body image he's gotten his head. But he's also going to, in a way, ask you to adjust your body image of your mate. Has that been difficult? Hmm. No.

Okay. Ha ha ha ha. No, I'm sorry. If you want to get kinky about it, a man with t***s is kind of cool. Huh. Okay. Did, uh, was there ever any concern? There was for me.

Um, not so much for Stu, I think. Did, uh, was there ever any concern? There was for me. Um, not so much for Stu, I think. Partly because he didn't hear as many whispers as I felt I did. But I was concerned for the theater business. Not without reason. A lot of kids in the town stop coming to the theater, because their parents wouldn't let them. Ticket sales took a hit.

And it wasn't long before pickup trucks full of teenage boys would drive by the theater yelling slurs. Oh, I don't know that I'd go so far as... Well, yeah, I guess... I guess... and faggot is a slur, I guess. And so you get to this point in the... sped up movie narrative of Stu.

This point right here, where even though he took it so slowly and was so careful, it's still easy to imagine things turning ugly. I don't know. What was that movie about the boy that was, you know, drug and beat to death because he was gay in a small town in the Midwest? You know what, a boy's daughter? A massive shuffling.

Yeah. But according to Linda Webb, Silverton's not so different from Laramie Wyoming where Matthew Shepard lived. It's a small town. Very traditional. Very traditional. Very conservative. You know, you got a lot of red necks in silver. And so Dennis Bean puts it, so it's not crazy to expect a worse.

But here's the surprise. Good evening, call for a red. And the whole reason we came here to silver. Monday, January 15, 2009, the war ended. The worst did not happen. The place we were usually to serve the life of the United States and the rest. There was no red neck rebellion. In fact, the opposite happened. Please reach the right hand. The worst did not happen. There was no redneck rebellion, in fact the opposite happened. Something historic.

On January 5, 2009, the town of Silverton elected Stu mayor. Not the city of Silverton, Marion County, Oregon. Congratulations. APPLAUSE Soberton has elected the nation's first openly transgender mayor. The nation's first openly transgender mayor. Well, change is definitely in the air this election. Take to rest new support. It's applied as openly transgendered as he runs his home town in Heels.

MUSIC In heels. Speaking of heels, this is in fact the sound of stew's four inch heels pounding on linoleum as he goes to a city council meeting. Hello Harold. Couldn't be better. How are you? Good. Now call us, you know, city elitist or whatever, but a mayor and a plunging venex sweater and a black mini skirt, not which you would expect, and a tiny conservative Republican town.

So we wanted to know, you know, why did this happen here? So producer Aaron Scott and I walked around town for a couple days, and we interviewed dozens of people, including, a guy named Ken Hector who stewed, beat out for mayor. He's a conservative Republican, definitely not one of Stu's big vans. It was just a difference in philosophy about, I don't want to sound pretentious, but as a mayor, I think there's certain expectations about professionalism that you should exhibit. He would come in with a tight, clinging top with cleavage down to here.

You're almost pointing at your belly button there. Well, a little bit higher. Come on, you know, when you're at the council meeting, show some dignity here and just dress in the appropriate attire for the occasion. Can't even try to get the city council to impose a dress code on Stu. But when we asked him, you know, are you surprised

that the town has embraced Stu? And even gone so far as to elect a mayor. He said, no, not in this case. You know, Stu's a rarity in that, you know, there's a lot of people in this town who are extremely religious, very conservative people. Were it a stranger who came into town suddenly? I'm sure that the support and perception might have been different, but you're talking about a native son who grew up here.

And he said, look, Stu runs the only theater in town. perception might have been different, but you're talking about a native son who grew up here. And he said, look, Stu runs the only theater in town, so he's out there every weekend. Standing out in front of the palestate or taking tickets. So everybody knows him. Not only that, back in the day, he used to be the cable guy, so he's literally been in everybody's homes. He's still the guy you call if you have trouble with your computer. So it might sound strange to you, but it's really not. And that is when it hit me. Actually? Under the right circumstances? A small town can be like the most progressive place on earth. And it's exactly because everyone's all up in your grill. You were forced to know people. Like, Rince, how long have you known Stu? Oh my goodness, I grew up with Stu.

I mean, I remember when Stu was like an ultra boy at the church with my brother. This is Susie Seamus, a retired teacher. Yeah, his parents and my parents were friends. Like a lot of folks in Silverton, she is known Stu for so long in an in so many different contexts that you can't do that New York thing with him Where you like you see someone on the sidewalk and you size them up instantly and think yeah, freak no to her

He's way too complicated for that. You know to her. He's stewed the altar boys do the computer gig Yeah, try good column a geek stew the city councilman's do the mayor Or just do just do just or it's just you. Just do. Just do. Whatever that's him. You know, go on about your business. You have to be clear a lot of the people we talk to. In fact, some of the same folks who said, yes, do is just do. Are still not happy about this situation. No, I mean, I don't think God's a cross-dresser. They either felt it was morally wrong as in the case of this minister Tom Smen. And Genesis 1, 27 says, so God created man in his own image. Or some folks like Linda Webb's husband John just felt like he takes it way too far. It's right there. It's in your face. He dresses kind of like a street walker.

You feel that that's confrontational? I do. But most of the people who had objections, it was a little more nuanced and it went something like this. Well I personally did not vote for him for mayor because I didn't feel it was a good idea to have someone that looked like that represented us, but on the other hand, he is a good man and he's got this town at heart. In other words, according to John Bach, the problem really isn't stew, or the town. It's the outside. All those people out there who are going to hear about stew, and then judge them.

Which is what makes November 25th, 2008, such an interesting day. Stew had just been elected mayor. He'd squeaked it out by about 400 votes, but he hadn't yet been sworn in. When a group of Christian extremists from Kansas showed up in town, they started marching up and down Main Street, yelling at people. And at one point, they even unfurled an American flag, put it on the ground, and stepped on it. Just to show how offensive they found Stu.

It's our duty to come out here and preach to everyone. The main thing is the Skis-Tay. It's our duty to come out here and preach to everyone. The man is disgusting. These folks hate stew because they will not by any means warn him about to send this to help. So unpleasant and then bringing up signs that say things like God hates so much and God hates your man. God hates fangs, your pastor is a whore. It's an abomination for a man to put on a woman's clothes and to be the opposite sex.

A few folks from the town decided to start a counter protest. We stood across the street from these people by and large. Just a few guys at first. Now earlier, someone had suggested... All the guys ought to dress up as girls and all the girls ought to dress up as guys. Yossi Davidson said his initial reaction was, he at right. But there he was in a dress. I didn't mean to dress. I didn't mean it, but that really actually was the first time.

He says that at first, he and the two or three other guys you had on women's clothing felt a little weird. But then... weird. But then people just started coming. It was just amazing. A couple hundred people. I mean, men dressed like women, women dressed like men. Some of the people that I saw down there were surprising because I had labeled them and my head as conservative. And people drive by people with signs, God loves so to God loves to, with costumes. The town was really live.

When the crowd just kept getting bigger and bigger. What were you thinking at that moment? For what understanding you were standing off to the side just watching? What was going through your mind? Yeah, well honestly I tried to discourage people from even giving them the time of day saying don't give them any attention. I couldn't get that to happen. What was going through your mind? Well, honestly, I tried to discourage people from even giving them the time of day saying, don't give them any attention. I couldn't get that to happen.

They were so angry. They came out 200 people. Men and dresses, grandmothers, babies. It's, it's just amazing. And that was the town that wasn't me. Sorry, I get a little emotional. Sorry, I get a little emotional. That must have been a turning point for you. The biggest one, yeah. Props to Aaron Scott who did a huge chunk of the reporting for that piece and co-produced it with me.

We'll be right back. Okay, so that story we did that a year ago, and it just feels like the world is different now, like with regards to transgender issues. I wonder, like, how have things changed for stew in these last six, seven years? So... Hello! Long time no say. Long time in... We decided to send producer reporter Aaron Scott back to Silverton to sit down with Stu and with Stu's partner Victoria just to catch up. I mean, it's been seven years since...

Are we'll be going on seven years, six years since we ran the store at the first time? What has been going on in your world? Well, since the election, that's been about it. So the first thing he told me was that he got reelected after two years, and then he was reelected again, and then after six years as mayor, he's now out of the game. Hell, let's lose ya. I have truly enjoying my vacation. And he did tell me that back when this story first aired, things did get kind of nutty. Well, you know, it's probably the most unusual phone call we've ever received.

We're, Victoria and I were sitting at home in the phone rang and it was a fellow from New York City who said I was spicycling on Manhattan, listening to the original radio lab piece. And he thought it would be really fun to do my life story as a musical. I don't know what I feel But I know it's a big deal then they reveal and he did that fellow is Andrew Russell He put on a big production up in Seattle. It got standing ovations the most surreal and bizarre experience in my life Sitting in an auditorium with 400 strangers watching as in song and dance my life goes by. He can call me she and she can call me he and he can call me she and she can call me he and he can call me he and she can call me she when you refer to me by gender. So there was this musical which seemed to do pretty well,

and then a movie producer called him up and said that he wanted to option stew's life for a movie. And now Victoria says those whispers that they used to get, those have turned into people wanting autographs, or stopping them in the shoe store and saying, Aren't you stew? Aren't you that mayor? Can I get a picture with you? What, sure. There's really no...

What's the big deal? Can Lou? But one of the most interesting things for me was that a lot of that attention was at the beginning. These days Stu says that, you know, his transgender issues have grown in the national news and on TV shows. Stu says that back in Silverton, the fact that he's transgender It's become pretty much passé, so here we are.

He says it's just kind of routine now, for him and everyone else. Except he did say there's this one thing. Every time the story airs or re-airs, which it does from time to time. When it goes, the phone starts ringing and we can tell where it's from. He says he gets these calls from people who are struggling with their own gender issues, or trying to figure out how to come out to their families. And people actually call your home phone. Yeah.

Usually anonymously, they won't identify themselves necessarily because they're still either closeted or not really ready to come out, but they're saying, thank you so much for being yourself and for telling your story to others so that I can validate my life from that. Thank you. Does that ever get old? No. For somebody who was in the position that I was and made the change and then to have other people either following along or

Emulating it in one way or another is very gratifying because it validates my life and it says well you weren't a complete waste of time A lot more than a lot of people get. Yeah Special thanks to producer Andy McEwen for helping us on all the update parts of this show. We do have some sad news, Stu Rasmussen, the two-time mayor of Silverton, Oregon, cinema proprietor, card-caring member of both the ACLU and the NRA and Good Neighbor passed away in November of 2021. He is and will continue to be missed. Oh, we about to do thoughts this way. Yes, we are. Okay. Three, two, one.

Hey, I'm Jan Abumrod. I'm Robert Krollwich. This is Radio Lab and today we're talking about, well, change, really. What looks like change? So, you remember back to the baboons when we started this program? Yeah. The question we were asking then was, those baboons if they do enough generations Will they create a new culture? Yeah, let's stick. Well, it's stick. Let's hope. Let's hope

But we don't know. No, and the town that chooses a mayor is that town expanding the sense of possibility or That's a little blip. That's exactly But now let's get really serious. There are indeed Changes that do stick. We're going to examine a rather start thing example of it right now. But to do that, we need an evolutionary biologist and we found one at Duke University. You guys talk to each other now? Yeah, hello, hello.

Who's this? That's Brian Hare. That's fantastic. And the first thing Brian here did was tell me about another guy. Dmitry Belaya. Dmitry Belaya. And Dmitry Belaya was a very famous geneticist in Russia. He was alive during World War II and doing genetics work. But after World

War II, he was in a little spot of trouble. What, what do you do? Well, because he was a real Darwinian. He believed in evolution and genetics. But thinking about evolution, like a Darwinian evolution is does, that was not popular in Stalin's Russia. Is popular the word or was that a death sentence? It was a death sentence. So the writing was on the wall, and he knew that he should probably take the Trans-Syberian Railroad from Moscow. Quickly.

Quickly. And he went to Nova's Abbeyers. And the way that Demetri Balai have decided to hide his continued interest in studying Darwinian evolution was he would begin a fox farm where he would make fur coats. So what is Mr. Bialev actually doing? What Dr. Balai was actually interested in

was to understand how does domestication happen? That's his question. That's a dumb question. No, it's not a dumb question at all. Well, you just get it. You bring that no, think about a wild animal. It is impulsive. It is aggressive. It grumbles. What is it a wolf? You're playing there? That's a wolf that I've got there in the back of. Now, this is a domesticated version. Oh, I can't play. Doggy. The nature of the animal has completely changed here.

And if you want to learn something about the nature of a creature, how it can change... Domesticated animals are a wonderful place to start. So, Balaif... He decided, why don't I just Experimentally domesticate some animals and his cover was that he was going to make better fur coats When was this by the way? 1959. Okay, so Sputnik was up Russians were feeling good and he was making fur coats so to speak so to speak Began one of the most exciting experiments in biology. So here's what Dimitri Belyf does He goes to a bunch of fox farmers and he says okay., I want to buy a bunch of foxes. And he says, well, all I got to do is take this group of foxes

and break them into two groups. And one group, I'm not going to change them in any way. Okay. So it's like a control line. So one group is just normal foxes. Normal. But the other line, I'm going to decide who is going to be allowed to breed and who is unfortunately going to be a fur coat. So some of the foxes get to have puppy foxes of their own and some foxes become fur. So what he did in the test was marvelously simple. He would go or one of his assistants would approach and cage where the fox was kept. Be this little baby fox. Sort of a juvenile fox. The experimenter would stand, say, a foot away and would just try to touch the fox. Hi, little fox, come on, hi, little fox.

Run, fox, run. But if the fox would make this kind of sound, and sort of cower in the corner, like most foxes would do, what is it? What's that sound? That is the sound a fox makes when it's frightened. Really? Yes, frightened fox sounds. So what happens? What's the sound? That's the sound. That is the sound a fox makes when it's frightened. Really? Yes, frightened fox sounds.

Huh. So what happens if it makes that sound? Well, they did not breed that fox in the next generation. Or to put it another way. They kill them. That pretty much. Yes. That's just wrong.

But now, every so often, like maybe one out of every 20 foxes, there would be a fox that would not run back, would not. So it wasn't afraid then. Then they would choose that fox to breed in the next generation. And they did this over and over again, generation after generation. They would breed the nice foxes together, get rid of the bad foxes, breed the next set, get rid of the bad foxes, breed the next set, next set the next set, next set,

next set, next set, next set. Right, right. What happened in the end? Well, eventually. They had foxes that were attracted to humans. Now, Chad, how long do you think it would take to get foxes from being wild ferocious animals to being animals who would lick your face? After this kind of like a... How many years?

...exterminating reading. Yes, technically. I would think a long, long time. I mean, I would think like... How many years? How many years? Well, it took wolves like thousands of years to become dogs. I don't know, I mean a long time.

Well, here's the thing. Ten years is the answer. What? Ten years. No, just ten? Don't tell me the show. I'm telling you it's ten years ten years. But now here's the crazy thing. What was exciting and surprising was that these same foxes, they actually show a whole suite of changes that he did not select for on purpose. Like what do you mean? Physical changes.

These foxes, as they became more gentle for some unaccountable reason, their ears instead of pointing straight up, flipped over. That's right. It was a big accident that they now have floppy ears. The tails on a fox, which in a wild fox, they're straight. Now? They have curly tails.

They have multicolored coats that are no longer just gray. The tips of their paws lose color. The teeth get smaller. And their bones became very thin. Their bones got thinner? Yes. So what happens to the skull and the face is it actually becomes more feminine. The whole animal becomes more delicate and more puppy-like.

Wow. I bet sir. face is it actually becomes more feminine. The whole animal becomes more delicate and more puppy-like. Wow. I... that's uh... I don't know what to make of that. And it's not over. This experiment has been going on. It's now been 50 years, 45,000 foxes later. 45,000. And Brian, by the way, who has read about this,

I gotta see this for myself. So he went to Nova Sebiarsk just to check it out. I did. I took the Trans-Siberian Railroad, which you know, two days of looking at green grass, and there's like one species of tree, and I think there was a butterfly that was kind of pretty. And was it birch trees? You were looking at birch tree,

then another birch tree, then another birch tree, and a birch tree. Pretty much. You got it. You got it. You got it. You got it. So I show up You got it. You got it. So I show up and they had thousands of foxes.

Giant buildings that are probably, you know, as long as a football field, full of just rows and rows of foxes. And when you see them, they actually wag their tail. They whine like a puppy dog. Ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, ah, they're cute and cuddly and they love people and they don't bite.

So it sounds perfect except for the one thing I forgot to tell you is that when they're yapping and excited to see you, they cannot help but pee for joy. As I do, whenever I see you, I understand though, it makes sense to me that they're getting nicer because they're breeding them to get nicer. But why is all this other stuff happening with their bodies? What's going on? I, well, you know, this is the unsatisfactory answer of that problem. Nobody really knows why.

Duh! Buk! Okay, I'm rolling in my end. This is to come, suffitch. So here's a synchronized sink, evolutionary biologist at the University of St. Andrews in Scotland, and he has a notion. My hypothesis for what's going on here.

And this is just a hypothesis. Here's what he told me. Did you go back to when a fox is a very, very little, itty-pity thing. An embryo. Inside its mother's womb. Very, very, very early embryo, like two months old. To become a fox that can survive in the world.

This little embryo needs to grow strong teeth. Yep. It has to grow fur. Need to fur. You have to have bone strong bones. Got them. Needs to grow teeth. Yep. It has to grow fur. Need to fur. Cats have bone strong bones. Cats have bones. Needs to grow glands. Yep. It's to grow hormones.

Check. And all of these things that you need as an adult fox. All of them come from the same founder population of cells in an embryo. Wow. I didn't know that. Yeah. They're called neural crest cells. When the fox grows these cells.

They're doing these epic migrations. These guys are like pioneers that are moving throughout the body and blazing these trails all over the place. Some of them go out into the skin. Some of them go up into the cartilage of the fox's ears. Some of them go into the jaw. They form all these different tissues. Teeth, tail, big parts of the nervous system.

Major parts of the brain. And the adrenal glands. What's the adrenal then? Well that of the brain, and the adrenal glands. What's the adrenal gland? Well, that's the most important one for our purposes. The adrenal gland pumps out when to be afraid. The adrenal glands say, run away, run away, run away. That's the thing that makes the fox go. Whatever the sound was. It's the one that makes that sound. So when you're breeding fear out of an animal, maybe what you're doing is you're slowing down the migrations of these cells. They don't deliver the fear and then they don't deliver all the other things that they usually do. What you're

focusing on, what you as the experimenter are doing is saying, I want the guys whose adrenal glands don't mature quickly. That might have the function of making the animal more tame, but what you as the experimenter are doing is saying, I want the guys who's adrenal glands don't mature quickly. That might have the function of making the animal more tame, but what you're doing is a byproduct of that is selecting for guys who don't get as many of those cells into their ears and don't get as many of those cells into their skin and don't get as many of those cells into their teeth. So if you get some of the cells you need to make your ears firm and straight but not quite enough then your ear will go up to a certain point and since the cells are going to complete the deal the rest of your ear flops over. Really? Yeah you haven't

come up with that because dogs have little floppy ears because the cells have been slowed down to the point where they don't finish the job. Oh, they were stirred. They are literally arrested. BINGO! The argument is that actually when you select against aggression in animals, you're changing the timing and the rate of development such that the experimental foxes are actually frozen as juveniles. They actually never really grow up. So then to domesticate a fox. They actually never really grow up.

So then to domesticate a fox. Just like to domesticate a wolf and to talk what you're doing is you're making them permanent puppies. They're like it's a Peter Pan kind of thing. They just... Wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait wait So, if we wanted to apply this to us, and we wanted to say breed a gentler, sleeker human being, we should just kill the football players, is that the idea? Well, you can kill the football, but you don't have something against football players. No, I'd say I like football, but I mean, like with the foxes, you just eliminate the

meanies. Oh, the meanies. With the same thing happened to us? That's where it gets really interesting. Remember the Professor we interviewed a few hours back, Richard Rangham? Vividly. Well, when we think about humans, obviously,

we're getting just super speculative. But. He says, if you choose to go back. If we go back just 30,000, 50,000 years, and you look at the collection of skulls or the early versions of us from way back then, you see some interesting fox-like changes. Well, if you look at domesticated animals, they have smaller teeth than their wild ancestors.

And in humans, we've been getting smaller teeth over the last few tens of thousands of years. Just like the foxes. We've been getting more grass-eiled bones. That means to say that for a particular length of limb bone, it becomes a little bit narrower. Just like the foxes. So it is tempting to think that the same kind of process has been going on in humans as it's been going on

in domesticated animals, which is that there has been natural selection in favor of a kinder, gentler human. Wait a second, oh, who's doing the selecting? In the case of the foxes, Mr. Biola, shot you if you were too aggressive. Who's selecting the, who's domesticating the humans? Well, one idea that has been specifically suggested is that it was the growing tendency for our hunter-gatherer ancestors to settle down in stable camps. You mean like summer camps?

Like that. Like sing songs around the market. I'm talking about communities. Look, if you are in a very small family group, well, then it pays to be big and strong in mean because if you're the biggest guy and you meet a smaller guy and he's got some potatoes, you grab him, eat his potatoes, beat him up, and then move on to the next till you never have to see him again. But let's say that as time passes, human society grows a little bit. You form camps. We might have 30 or 40 people.

That way you can build bigger fires and you can catch more bunnies and you can defend against enemies But in this world if you beat everybody up You may not survive that one pitted against anybody else one-on-one the big strong mean guy is generally gonna win When big strong mean doesn't win and we see this in some primates is when you can start to form coalitions When you can start to have multiple individuals, you say, hey mean guy, stop it. Yeah, you're bigger than any one of us, but you can't take on both of us, or all three of us, or our whole group.

Now we've got other males in the community who aren't going to go away, and they say, okay, we've got to deal with this guy, and maybe they deal with him by shouting him down, ostracizing him, or even capital punishment. And Richard Rangham's theory is that if that happens enough times to enough bullies, who then can't have kids and spread their genes because they have the unfortunate condition of being dead, then we've essentially bred out the more aggressive genes. Or we have domesticated ourselves.

We're really talking about groups versus individuals here, and so in a sense, I think we're really talking about the beginning of society and a kind of rule of law in the way that we think of it today. And this pressure to be a little more gentle and to be a little bit more cooperative. This hasn't gone away. I think if anything, we're being selected to work together more, to be able to tolerate being packed in even tighter. If you put 20 chips on a jet plane and try to send them across the Atlantic, let me tell you that only one or two would walk off that plane alive. We do this all the time. We take it for granted as human beings

that big groups of people can get along with one another. I do think that it's reasonable to imagine that humans have a future of increasing self-domestication. What I sense you proposing is that as the earth gets more crowded, all the creatures on Earth, or at least sentient creatures, have to start learning to live with each other, to the more, because they keep bumping into each other, the winners will be the domesticated ones. Everyone will get more empathetic to each other because that's the only way you survive. Everyone will get more empathetic to each other because it's the only way you survive. Let me get gentler and gentler and gentler to lambs literally lie down with lions.

You said it beautifully. But do you believe it? Well, we may have to go through one or two ups and downs before we get there, and of course there's something slightly alarming about the fact that one possible mechanism by which domestication has happened in humans is through literally execution of the more aggressive types. But in the long term, sure, let's hope that all of us become more... ...floppy-year? More floppy-year, exactly.

Maybe Mike patches on the ends of our tails. Remember when I started working together in a home meal I was? You have? Oh my god, we've domesticated. Yeah, you have? Do we have noticed your ears have been looking like this recently. Show me your teeth, smile. Anyhow, we should go to break. Or not break, we should just go to the big break.

Yeah. Just the break that exists between us and everything else. Yes, let's listen to the way we end it all. Bye. Bye! only 0.02% of people are members of the lab and support Radio Lab in that way. And if we could get that number up even a tiny bit before the years end, it would help us hugely. So if you are curious, if you're thinking maybe, if you've got a couple bucks to toss in, there's a way you can do it. Just go to radiolab.org-join. That's radiolab.org-j-o-i-n. Thanks so much.

Radio Lab was created by JAD Aburrod and is edited by Sorn Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasir are our co-hosts. Dylan Keef is our director of Sound Design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Vétu Cusick, Aketty Foster Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gabel, Maria Pasco, D.R.S, Sindu Nganasanban Down, Matt Q.T., Anime Q.N., Alex Nisen, Sour Cari, Anna-Rasqued Pass, Sarah Sandback, Arianne Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Andrew Vinyales.

Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Kriger, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Ellie from Cleveland, Ohio. Bayan Kelly, Emily Krueger, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Ellie from Cleveland, Ohio. Leadership support for Radio Lab Science Programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, Assignments Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.