Radiolab - Oliver Sipple

Episode Date: October 1, 2021

One morning, Oliver Sipple went out for a walk. A couple hours later, to his own surprise, he saved the life of the President of the United States. But in the days that followed, Sipple’s split-second act of heroism turned into a rationale for making his personal life into political opportunity. What happens next makes us wonder what a moment, or a movement, or a whole society can demand of one person. And how much is too much?  Through newly unearthed archival tape, we hear Sipple himself grapple with some of the most vexing topics of his day and ours - privacy, identity, the freedom of the press - not to mention the bonds of family and friendship.  Reported by Latif Nasser and Tracie Hunte. Produced by Matt Kielty, Annie McEwen, Latif Nasser and Tracie Hunte. Special thanks to Jerry Pritikin, Michael Yamashita, Stan Smith, Duffy Jennings; Ann Dolan, Megan Filly and Ginale Harris at the Superior Court of San Francisco; Leah Gracik, Karyn Hunt, Jesse Hamlin, The San Francisco Bay Area Television Archive, Mike Amico, Jennifer Vanasco and Joey Plaster. Support Radiolab today at Radiolab.org/donate. Episode originally published 09/21/2017

This story contains a couple moments of profanity, cursing, just a few. Know that before you go in. Oh, wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right. Door listening to Radio Lab.

Radio Lab. From WNYC. This radio lab, I'm Chad Abumrod. So today, I want to play for you really one of my favorite stories we've ever done on Radio Lab. It's one of those like, perfect stories where all the different things you want in a story come together all at once. Like you've got the single human being going through something truly unique and difficult.

But inside that single human being story is in that kind of universe and a blade of grass sort of way is everything. You know, it's that kind of story. Comes from Latif. This is back in the days when Latif was a producer and this is before he was hosting the show with Lulu Miller and I. It's back that time when I was hosting the show with Robert Crowewich. So I don't know, let's just let it roll. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Crowewich. This is Radio Lab and today we are going to start. Okay, so let's start with our producer Latif

Nasser. Yeah. Well, let's just go back to San Francisco on a particular day at a particular time. And a particular woman. Hello. Hi. Is this Sarah Jane? Yes, it is. Woman named Sarah Jane Moore. Sarah Jane.

Okay. So this is San Francisco. The particular day was September 22nd. The particular time. 1975. It's a Monday morning. It was a nice day. Oh, yeah. I don't remember anything different, so I assume it was a nice day.

Yeah, sure, sure. I was kind of, you know, in my own head. So, Sarah Jane, on this Monday morning, she wakes up early, drops her nine-year-old off at school, runs a few errands, then she drives downtown to this big fancy hotel. What was the name of the hotel? I think it's the St. Francis, isn't it? I'm 87 years old. Don't expect me to remember a little details like that. Okay, all right, fair enough. Yeah. But at any rate, you know, I parked in the parking garage across, right across the hotel as a park, but there's a parking garage underneath, walked over and walked across the street. There were sidewalks on both sides of the street.

There were people on both sidewalks. She joins the crowd across the street from the hotel. It was very crowded. A couple of thousand people. It's like a big scene. There was a barrier, a rope barrier, keeping us back on the sidewalk. My plan had always been to be back in the crowd. You know, and I was dressed like every other middle age woman

that was there. What were you, do you remember what you were wearing? I mean, I'm sure there's... Oh, there are pictures of it. Yes, I was wearing slacks. That was at the beginning of when it was natural for a woman to wear slacks. I had a coat on and I was carrying a purse

and I went back into the middle of the crowd as I had planned to do. Anyway, I thought a man come up against me and socializes, I wasn't that day in time. I spun around a slappy's face. She sees this guy there, big, strong guy, blond hair. Looked at him and realized that it was crowd pressure that he had not done anything out of ordinary,

that so I turned back around and went on about my business. It was crowd pressure that he had not done anything out of ordinary. I turned back around and went on about my business. I was then pushed up. The crowd pressure was such. I tried to stay back in the crowd, but I got pushed up almost onto the ropes in the front, right up on the curb of the sidewalk. It's why I had not planned to be. He apparently was still right behind me.

So maybe he was pushed up really crowd also. And so Sarah Jane is just crammed into this crowd and she's just standing there. Yes. And were you nervous? Oh no, you set out to do something and I was just going about doing what I had set out to do. So she waits and she waits and an hour goes by and two and three and then finally Out of the hotel comes none other than the president of the United States Gerald Ford and he has Police and secret service and are all coming. They're walking out of the hotel to get in this car

Which was parked there on the street, but he sees the crowd Sarah Jane actually says he looks directly at her and He waves he waves to the crowd and everyone starts applauding and cheering now right at that moment Sarah Jane reaches her right hand into her purse and pulled the gun out of my purse. A 38 caliber revolver. She cocks it and then she takes aim right at Gerald Ford's head. And then... The bullet flies a few feet to the right of Ford, chips the wall behind him. Ford freezes in place, Sarah Jane. Never planned to take a second shot.

Now she's just still standing there. With my hands still in the air holding the gun. Looking over the smoking barrel of the gun, and she's got enough time if she wants it, but before she can take that second shot, the blonde man behind her lunges at her, grabs her gun arm, pulls it down, and deflects it for just that crucial second

that these police officers nearby need to get to her. They tackle her, they take her gun, and they pinner to the ground. So I couldn't move. And by that point, the Secret Service has whisked off the president into the limousine. And I was immediately picked up and carried across the street into the hotel.

The rest did. And eventually, she went to prison, and she served 32 years in prison. Huh. And then after that was released on parole, and then we talked to her. We had. There's a way. I just not prepared to be told the first person, from the perspective of someone who's

about to be a staff member of the president. That was not what I was expecting. I was hoping that. But can you explain why it is? She decided to shoot the guy in the room? Yeah, why, why did she shoot? Well, well, Sergei has never fully explained that, and in fact, when I asked her,

well, this is not, she was like, I'm not going there. This is not an interview about what was driving me or about what I did or why I did it. This is an interview about Mr. Siple. Siple? Yeah, Oliver Siple. He's the random blonde guy who just happened to be standing next to Sarah Jane more that day, the guy who grabbed her arm and saved the president's life.

And he paid dearly for that. I actually called up Sarah Jane and had her tell that whole story because I was actually interested in what happened to Oliver Siple after that. Because had he not reached out and put his hand on my arm? Somebody fire! None of this would have happened to him. Wait, what happened to him? So Oliver Sippel actually died in 1989,

but before we get to this story, I just wanna give you a picture of the guy. So just Google search, Oliver Cipal Ford or something. Wait, okay, wait, I see the picture. Why, I see like that. He's a muscular guy kind of blonde hair. He's a, he's a, he's a handsome guy. Yeah, he's a little bit James Dean and Marlon Brando had a baby kind of he feels like an all-American

He feels all-American. There's something all-American about him. Thank you. Yeah, we're bringing in another all-American for this story Daniel Lutzer and editor at Oxford University Press and a few years ago is like probably more than five years ago. I wrote an article about Oliver Cipoll But anyway to get back on track September 22nd 1975 more than five years ago I wrote an article about Oliver Siple. But anyway, to get back on track, September 22nd, 1975. Sarah Jane Moore fires that shot. Oliver Siple grabs her arm. The police wrestled more to the ground. And then the police actually grab Oliver too.

Pull him inside the hotel to question him. Because there's initially some confusion about what he was doing there and some thought that, you know, he might have been a suspect. And so he's in this hotel trying to light a cigarette, but he just couldn't do it because he was shaking so hard. Turns out Oliver had served two very rough tours in Vietnam. Loud noises would make him very unhappy. I think this is the sort of thing we might call post-traumatic stress disorder now. But when eventually Oliver started to calm down the secret service, we're like,

what are you even doing here? It was kind of hard for him to answer because it's like, he didn't even really know. He's just like, I don't know, I was taking a walk. And I just bumped into this huge crowd of people asked what was going on. People like, oh, like Gerald Ford is gonna be here. You know, the president is gonna be here. So he said he thought, I might as well see him. And then he was standing

there for a couple hours until he saw a flash of metal realized it was a gun, reacted quickly, instinctively. And then you guys all pulled me in here. That's how it came to be here. So he's questioned for three hours. He goes home, home to his fourth floor walk up and there's a reporter there waiting for him. But he just wants to sort of be left alone and he told this reporter, quote, I'm a coward. I don't know why I did it. It was the thing to do at the time. And then even after that, he just keeps getting phone calls from reporters. And some of them learned that he was a Marine. And so they would ask him questions like, oh, was it your, you know, was it your training?

Is that why you did this heroic thing? But he said like, oh, you know, listen, don't mention you, and even that stuff about the Marines, you know, let's keep that under wraps. Quote, I'm no hero or nothing. But the next day, yesterday in San Francisco, a shot fight. of her story shot across the country. He named all of her cypals on television. On the front page of newspapers, where

there's headlines like, ex-marine deflects weapon as woman shoots. That's the Ellie time. Chicago Tribune. Hero tells how he deflected woman's arm. And so despite his best efforts, Oliver becomes a national hero for a day. And it appears that he sort of thought that would be it. Maybe his friends would give him a pat on the back by a couple rounds. And then, you know, over the next couple days,

it all sort of like rippled out of control. Because that very same day that Oliver was being painted as a hero, this guy named Herb Kane. The long-time San Francisco columnist. Walked into his office and on his answering machine were two messages, saying, Hey, that guy Oliver Siple, the hero? Who saved the president's life is gay.

Huh. Was he out? Well, he was sort of out and sort of not. What does that mean? Well, to explain, you gotta understand this particular time and place. So let's just, you know, take a magic carpet ride, close your eyes and let the sound take you away.

A city has emerged where a homosexuality is not only tolerated, it's dry. San Francisco sometimes labeled with a slide captain in the Queen City of the Way. So San Francisco was one of the first cities in America to have a gay pride parade. And in the 70s, it's a wonderful city, it's a happy day. It was one of the first cities in America to have a gay pride parade. And in the 70s, it's a wonderful setting, isn't it?

Boys go to bed with boys, and girls go to bed with girls. For gay people, San Francisco was like this shelter from the storm. Many of us were immigrants from somewhere. This is Ken Maley. Long time San Francisco resident. And gay activists, who at the age of 19,

came to San Francisco from Kansas. I escaped from Kansas, because what the West offered was the ethereal promise, if you will, of reinvention. You could cross a line in which your past stayed behind you. It was a place where you could be out, but to the people you left behind, you could still be in. So for Oliver, you left behind, you could still be in. So for Oliver, he came from Michigan. From a working class family, he had a lot of brothers

and sisters, I think he was one of eight children. And so after the war, when he got his San Francisco, he actually started going by the name Billy. Billy, Billy Cipil. And he was perfectly open about his sexual orientation and would tell anybody who asked that he was a gay man, but he never told his family. And so Oliver lived like a lot of gay people at the time, this double life.

Yeah, yeah. And do we know that this is the reason why Cypacandic San Francisco or was there a difference? It may have just been because Harvey Milk was there. The Harvey Milk, you know, famous gay activist, San Francisco politician. He was friends with Harvey Milk, the New Yorker. An immigrant from New York. Turns out Oliver had actually met Harvey a decade earlier in New York and I just want to mention this because it's I think so cool at different points of time they actually dated the same guy Who was the inspiration for Sugar Plum Fairy? Sugar Plum Fairy came and hid the streets. In Lurid's walk on the wild side.

Looking for solvudana plays D. It's just a fun fact. Just a fun fact. That's it. in Lureeds walk on the wild side. Look at the soul food and a place to eat. Just a fun fact, just a fun fact, that's it. But, um, Oliver and Harvey, they were pretty good friends. They corresponded, stayed in touch when they lived in different places in the country. Actually, Harvey even loaned Oliver money sometimes because Oliver didn't have a job. He, you know, collected disability

from his time in the Marines, but anyway. By the beginning of the 70s. When Oliver got to San Francisco, reconnected with his old friend. Harvey was, shall we say, evolving into... A huge figure there. But gay public figure. Ken was actually friends with Harvey. Worked on one of his campaigns.

But this, I'm sorry. No, no, no, and I'm just thinking like one of the things we were talking about on the phone was about sort of the kind of two different schools or two different. I'm just about to segue to that. Oh, perfect. So yeah, yeah, go for it. This older, I would say older,

but other generation of gay, mostly men, was that they were content to go to tea with the mayor or public official of some kind. They would show up to like a rally, wearing jackets and ties. And like ask for their rights politely? They really weren't, shall we say, activists. Because according to Ken, the activism came...

Please, now, please, now! When in the late 60s, early 70s, you had young gay men and women... ...who came out of the Vietnam War protests into the world. Took a look around. The CBS News survey shows that two out of three Americans look upon homosexuals with disgust, discomfort, or fear. The police are still raiding bars. What they consider discrimination in jobs and housing.

People are still getting beaten. So one of the women said, a queer faggot, we're going to beat the shit out of you. Something to that effect. We're going to kill you. Both violently and non-violently. Got up in the middle of the street. They knocked me down and started beating me with their hands and their feet, their elbows.

Tried to muffle my screams. And after a while, a body of people get to a point where they just will not take oppression anymore. So... In came the activist like Harvey. Ponytail mustache. He was a banker turned hippie. You know you lie in. You know you're changing the statements around. He was very outspoken. A question. What is your real motive behind it?

Very militant. And stop this phony issue that you know is a phony issue. And, to Harvey... We are saying that a gay person should have the right to say... Gay people were living in a half-life opportunity. I am gay, that it is a part of society, period. Not being able to be who they were. Every gay person must come out. Yeah! It's difficult as it is, you must tell your immediate family, you must tell your relatives,

you must tell your friends, if indeed they are your friends, you must tell your neighbors, you must tell the people you work with, you must tell the people the stories, you shopping, you... And once... once you do, you will fail so much better. Science reporting on Radio Lab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simon's Foundation initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. And so, cut back to September 22nd 1975. In the blink of an eye, Oliver Cible becomes this hero, and that same night, Oliver's friend Harvey hears about all this news, and kind of senses, wait, maybe there's an opportunity

here. So he picks up the phone and he calls the columnist Herb Kane, a very, very well-known, well-loved gossip columnist. And Kane isn't there, so milk leaves a message on his answering machine. And he basically says, look, I'm a friend of Oliver Sypils. I've known him for years. Oliver Sypils worked on my campaign for supervisor. So basically without cypals consent. Harvey outed him. Milk out of them. What was Harvey milk thinking that he would do this? Well, for Harvey, I think the stereotypes,

the lies, the innuendos, of gay people as limperisted and drag queens and stuff. The distortions, or gay people at child molesters. Well, here's a true gay hero. A square-jawed heroic marine, who seemed to be a sort of like regular, like, red-blooded American. And so Harvey said, and this was written down by his biographer, who I'm quoting, it's too good an opportunity, for once we can show that gays do heroic things, not just all that kaka about molesting children and hanging out in bathrooms.

Wasn't there somebody said, no, no, no, no, you gotta ask the guy for it, you can't just do that. Harvey just did it, really. Yeah, he just did it. Harvey just did it really. Yeah, he just did it. So Kane in the next morning, Kane arrives at his office. He listens to the message and Kane tries to call simple, but he can't reach him. But there was another guy who is a gay activist. His name was the Reverend Ray Brochiers. He was the head of what's called what was called the Lavender Panthers. He was the head of what's called what was called the lavender panthers

And he also independently called Herb Kane to say oh that guy all over Cypher once talking about on the news Yay, so you got two Independent sources both of people who said that they were friends with Cypher and that he was gay and for Kane I think this was juicy. This was a juicy thing. And he, let me just go back and get this.

So two days after the assassination attempt, Kane's column comes out. And the way that he wrote it up, this is the precise paragraph. One of the heroes of the day, Oliver Billy Siple, the ex-Marine who grabbed Sarah Jane Moore's arm, just as her gun was fired and thereby may have saved the president's life, was the center of midnight attention at the Red Lantern, a golden gate avenue bar he favors. Reverend Ray Brochiers, head of Helping Hand Center and gay political Harvey Milk, who claimed to be among Sipples' close friends, described themselves as proud, maybe this will

help break the stereotype. And then that day, this guy named Daryl Lemke. Lemke, L-E-M-B-K-E. Picks up his issue of the Chronicle, sees Herb Kane's column. Reddit, and I reported it to the office. The office of the Los Angeles Times. I was a reporter for the LA Times in San Francisco,

and so my office told me, get an interview without a reciprocal. But really quickly before we get there, we actually managed to find the recording of this very specific interview in the LA Times collection at the Huntington Library in Los Angeles. And I think the reason they hung on to it was

because it was kind of controversial. So the night that C Keynes article comes out, Darryl goes to Oliver's house, Oliver's there. Do reporters from the Sentinel were there also? I don't know. I don't know. That right there is Darryl. It's a game.

Is there any statement? I don't know. I'm going to be caught now, maybe. I mean, this. Sure. So they're all sitting in Oliver's living room and what the reporters are all wondering is, have you heard from the president? The president hadn't bothered to thank him at that point.

The president can award what they call medals of freedom to people for outstanding acts. He offered, you know, they had me brought back to the White House a few days ago. Certainly. Would you like to meet him? Well, yeah, I stood in line for three hours to see him. And that voice right there, that's Oliver. You didn't have time to meet you at that occasion. Have you heard from the mayor? Well, I've heard from nobody.

I've heard only from the press and reporters and reporters in the press and that's sure I've been hard to get hold of. I really have to dig. But then I'm sure the mayor could find you. He has access to police records and the nowhere you are. Okay, can we go on that round? Yeah. Okay. For some reason, San Francisco Police Department has now referred any inquiries about you

to the sex crimes in this infoscience detail. That's something that you should know. Something Oliver should know, because this is again, it's said a time when the assumption was that all gay men were just pedophiles pervert. to Y. The number is 5531361. Who is the guy to talk to? Pockery is Sullivan or Patrick. Now if you think I found out. Darryl calls local authorities, but he can't get a hold of anyone. Sorry, guy, I'm out of here.

I don't know anything yet. He said to call back around one. So this guy has said nothing to you about that. Do you have any sex crimes on your record? I've never had a sex event in my entire time. I've never been arrested, my chip had been dropped a couple times. That one product is number one. The world hasn't been dropped.

I would like us to check that out further to see if there's more than there getting you. And then the tape recorder goes off, comes back on. Uh, well, who do I call with some authority with the police department? And now all of us on the phone with the police department? Yeah, is this your technical element? Yeah, well my name is Oliver Ciple. And I'd like to know why I've been turned over to your department, sex crimes and missing persons.

This is May Yes. That's correct sir. Yes sir, I'd like some information. Our bunch of press came over. A lot of bunch of just three people from the press came over this afternoon. And they said they were trying to get some information about me in the police department.

And I was turned over to sex and crime sex. What the hell is all that about? Oh, I see. Well, Jesus, God, I mean, I said what Jesus got. I mean, I said, what the hell is going on? Okay, guy. I tried to call the mayor's office just now, and I tried to call the chief of police office just now.

What the Sam Hill is going on? Okay. Thanks a lot, guy. Yeah. Just the opposite, one of the officers that was in bow with the assassination, or the assassination of 10, is in that department, that's all. That's why it's being turned. Does that make any sense to you? That can be very shook up, young man. Well, that was just about to go down time and whip some ass

somewhere. We find out any more about our last matter. Now, the reason this tape is so controversial is because according to Oliver, before the interview began, before the recorder started rolling, he had said to the reporters from the Sentinel, OK, I'm going to talk to you guys about my sexuality. But then he had said to Darrell, I don't want you to write anything about that.

I don't want that in a national paper. Darrell says he doesn't remember that, but then right here in this interview, this thing happens where Darrell says, I'll make one more try on the gay thing. I'll make one more try on the gay thing. You don't want to change your mind on it. You don't want to change your mind on it. You don't want to change your mind on that.

No, I just don't want to change my mind on that. Maybe we quote you saying homosexuality has nothing to do with this. You can quote me with this saying that if I were homosexuality, I was not. You can quote me on that. It doesn't make any less of a man than what I am. But I think that it has nothing to do with the actor or itself. So I don't think it should be pushed any further than that. That would be cool. And eventually, okay.

Interview ends and Darrell says that when he left that interview, he felt like when it came to all of her sexuality, he didn't want to be quoted. That was it. Just don't quote me on it. But still, I was trying to report from all sides about it. The big side for me was that he was a hero in the president of the United States was very slow on the take and thanking him for saving his life. And Darrell thought that all of her sexuality, the fact that he was gay, might have something to do with that because just seven months

earlier. On March 6th, Sergeant Leonard Matlevich disclosed to a supervising officer at Langley Air Force Base in Virginia that he was a homosexual and wanted to stay in the Air Force. This Air Force sergeant named Leonard Matlevich, who had the purple heart, had the bronze star, he comes out that he's gay and he's kicked out of the Air Force. In conversations here, people say that we're just charging this queer, that queer, throw them out of the Air Force. I mean, inside I just burn up with, you know, just,

am I a coward here and I'm just gonna stand here and never really coming up to protection of my fellow minority group and just keeping quiet. And my conscience just wouldn't let me do it anymore. I had to come forward and say, no more America. And now you've got this former Marine, save the president's life, and it's two days later, he still hasn't heard from the president

So for Darrell even though Oliver had said don't make this about my sexuality. I still thought it was a It was a national story and it was pretty hard to ignore it after Herb Cain had started the ball rolling So that night after the interview Darrell calls in his story to the Ellie Times office and he uses this phrase. He says that all of her is a former Marine who was quote, a prominent figure in the gay community. Put it down away as the story, but the rewrite guy put it in the lead.

Really? And made it the big thing. And so three days after the assassination attempt, the LA Times runs the story with the headline, uh, no call from President, Hero in Ford shooting active among SF Gays. And, uh, the LA Times got a new service. And so, Daryl's story, it goes, I mean, it goes everywhere. Another strange twist to the story? Headlines are like, gay, vat, or homosexual hero.

It's been reported that the X-Marine, who deflected Mrs. Moore's shot on Monday, is well-known in San Francisco's gay activist circles. And so it was not just running in Los Angeles. It's also running in Chicago. It's running in Dallas. It's running in Indianapolis. And it's running, you know, and it's running, you know, of all places in Oliver Cipples' hometown in Detroit.

I guess what I'm wondering is if you have a guy who says, please don't talk about this. There's nothing to do with what I did yesterday. Shouldn't that play some role in what you decide to write or not to write? Well, you know, news sources are always reluctant to talk. And so I guess I took it as my duty to take up that angle, especially since it's involved the president of the United States. Right. But if you were to do it all over again, would you do anything differently? I don't know.

I hadn't taken into account maybe the potential arm of saying it. I don't know if I'd do it over again or not. But not able to turn back the clock for something like that. Clock marches forward after the break. My name is Jazz Adam and I'm calling from Los Angeles. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.Sloan.org. This is Radio Lab. We're back with the story of Oliver Sippel from reporter producer Lattofnosser. So the assassination attempt was on Monday and on Thursday, Sippel and

his lawyer call a press conference. Well, I think you all know this is Oliver Sippel, who saved the president's life and he has a prepared statement on a subject that's appeared in the press today. In the past few days, I have been asked many questions having to do with my sexual preferences to it. I have been asked whether or not I am gay or homosexual. This is, there is, this is my reply to the line in question. The first reason you are interested in my, in me is the fact the woman who tried to shoot the president, see I'm sorry I'm so nervous, excuse me.

I'm sorry, I'm so nervous, excuse me. This is a handwritten statement and he's having a little difficulty reading it. We zeroxed it in order to get it to you this afternoon. The reason you were interested in me is the fact that I feel like- Oh, okay, I couldn't get the word there. Can we go with it with a line? My sexual orientation has nothing at all to do with saving the president's life. Just as the color of my eyes or my race has nothing to do with what happened in front of the St. Francis Hotel untusely. My sexuality is a part of my private life.

And I have not. I have no. And has no bearing on my response to the act of a person seeking to take the life of another. I'm first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life. I feel that a person worth is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live, not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared. He basically says, like, stop, stop.

It's kind of as simple as that. But there's something else that happens in the press conference that is, makes the whole thing, I mean, so much more personal. Finally. And it actually was the very reason that Oliver called the press conference in the first place. I want you to know that my mother told me today

that she could not walk out of her front door or even go to church because of the pressures she feels because of the press stories concerning my sexual orientation. Naturally, I never participated such interference with my family's relationship with jive when I supposedly say the president's life all of her would later say that When he was talking on the phone with his mother She said to him. I don't want to speak to you ever again. She hung up on him and also hung up Did you call him Uncle Angolover? Yes, I call him Uncle Angolover. Yeah. This is George Cypill Jr. Oliver's nephew. He told me that most of Oliver's family stayed in Detroit.

Oliver's two brothers and his dad worked together in an auto plant there. They all worked for General Motors and the stories that I've heard is that... The day after all of us saved the life of President Ford. They walked in and everyone wanted to buy them a beer. You know, everybody on the factory floor was congratulating them, petting them on the back. You know, your brother's a hero, your son's a hero. When they would take their shift break.

This is the old days, right? They'd take a shift break and they'd go to the bar and everybody wanted to buy them around at drinks. So then the news comes out, whatever a couple of days later, that he's this game marine, and there's teasing on the factory floor. Teezing mean teasing or teasing.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. and George says what happened is reporters back in Detroit just sort of descended on all of his parents to get more of the story and so they kept knocking on my grandmother's door and she I guess apparently told them to go away I guess neighbors were harassing her she thought the media was harassing her my grandmother just said I don't want to deal with it. So don't come knock on the door, leave us alone. They just wanted it to go away. They won't go back to their private lives. Now, one of the things that I found actually after talking to George were these interviews

done with Oliver's family after the news broke that Oliver was gay. And there's just, I just want to read you this one particular passage. Here, have you talked to any other members, this is from George F. Cippell, who is Oliver Cippell's brother? Have you talked to any other members of your family since September 1975 about Oliver? I mentioned it once to my father, question,

and what was his response? What did he say? And if you can remember, I was on afternoons then, and I had seen him because I had come in early. And he mentioned the fact that the next person that even said he had a son named Oliver, he was going to literally break their damn neck. Whoa, so his dad was like,

that's his brother talking about his dad's reaction. Brother talking to the dad, yeah. And then so then the brother says, and he told me quite clearly in two letter words, just forget you got a brother, and I let him alone. I never participated such interference with my families relationship, which I, when I supposedly say the President's life, this is all I have to say on this subject.

Thank you very much, ladies and gentlemen. Any questions you go to minister to my lawyer? I'd like to ask Mr. Civil Questioner what would you like to see happen? I know. No, I'm just a very shutup. I may even have to go even see a dot bill with this. I'm very emotional to shut out. I just, I feel very sorry for my family, it's awful. It's just awful. Nothing more to say.

Can you tell us the story of the letter? Well, I wish I would have brought it. I do have it, but I didn't bring it today. The same day is that press conference, which was three days after the assassination attempt, Gerald Ford actually did write a letter to Oliver Cipoll, which was then released publicly. It's a nice letter. It's White House stationaryary White House envelope. It's basically Ford telling my uncle that, you know, he's thankful to him for this heroic deed. And he signed it, Jerry Ford, which I've been told that Gerald Ford signed different ways.

So if he signed Jerry Ford, it meant something, it was like a personal touch. Well, there's this other chapter where your uncle says to the president, I guess, writes the president. Well, so yeah, so this we found it, we found a letter, we found a letter in the Gerald Ford library. It's from your uncle to the president. Wow. Yeah. I did not know about that letter. Really? I have the letter right now. So it's a date on it is September 30th 1975. So here's what it says. Dear Mr. President, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, you said it was what? It was when? September 30th 1975. So that would be a couple days after he got the letter from Ford. This was so obviously, obviously he got my grandmother must have hung up on him. Right.

And then he wrote the letter. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like. Because he couldn't. Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. Okay, yeah. Well, then stop me anytime if you have thoughts or reactions.

Dear Mr. President, thank you for taking the time to write to me. In view of some of the events since the unfortunate attempt on your life on Monday, September 22nd, I really appreciate your publicly thanking me. As you probably know, there have been a number of stories concerning my personal sexual orientation in the news media. These stories have caused great anguish to my parents and to the rest of my family I am sure. My mother hung up on me when I first called her after these stories began to be published. I know you are concerned with very many matters which are too important and pressing for you to be concerned with the details of my private life. However, the unexpected and glaring publicity which has been given to my private life. However, the unexpected and glaring publicity which has been given

to my private life has very seriously disrupted my family relationships. Mr. President, it is a very hard thing to have your mother and family not want to have any contact with you. I know that your schedule is heavily occupied, but I respectfully request that you take the time to see my family or at least call my family. The telephone number is 31380. I love my family and I do not want to be separated from their love and companionship. Your help will be gratefully appreciated, respectfully all over W.C.B.L. Wow.

That's sad. Sadder to think that nothing came of it. You know? Yeah. You know? Yeah. Yeah. We tried really hard to find out if Ford ever made that call. The archivists at the Ford Library, they went through his call logs and there was no evidence that he ever made that call.

And then we talked to George Jr. and he talked to everybody in his family and they don't remember it either. And anyway, you can't say for sure, but as far as we can tell, that call never happened. But we did find out that the same day that all of us sent that letter back to Ford, he and his lawyer filed a $15 million lawsuit against the press. Really?

Saying what? That the newspapers, when they publicized that he was gay without his consent, they violated his privacy. OK, walking out of civic center, burnt onto civic center in San Francisco. It's just one of those cases where it pulls your head in one direction and it pulls your heart in the exact opposite direction. And so we wanted to get into the legal case files and we could not find them, we looked

and looked and looked and then we found them. You found them. We found them. Where'd you find them? So the clerk's office is, I guess, not surprisingly right off City Hall. They were at this court in San Francisco. And so we recruited this guy, this researcher, historian of the, you know,

gay movement in San Francisco, great name, Joey Plaster, and he. Okay, so I'm gonna need your ID. Okay. Went and got the files for us. And then when we found them, it turned out there were like thousands and thousands of on thousands of pages.

And is that everything? This is everything. That's everything, okay. So the issue, you know, it's a very fundamental issue for those of us in journalism. And to help us make sense of the arguments, you know, lurking in those pages. What is privacy and what is invasion of privacy?

We talk to Dan Maureen. Editorial page editor, the Sacramento Bee. He actually first heard about the case in journalism school and also wrote about all of her simple way back in the 1980s. He actually first heard about the case in journalism school and also wrote about Oliver Simple way back in the 1980s. So anyway. Okay, so here's the first page of the file. The lawsuit was against the Chronicle.

The case is Oliver W. Simple, plaintiff versus the Chronicle Publishing Company. It was against the LA Times. The Des Moines Register, the Chicago Sun Times, the Denver Post, the Indianapolis Star, and the San Antonio Express. Wow. Let's see. So this is the deposition of Oliver W. Sippel. Let's see. So one of the arguments that the lawyers for the newspapers were making is that Oliver's sexuality was not actually private. Lawyer, were there any people that you knew in San Francisco's in, say, September 1975? Who knew that you were homosexual?

Simple, yes, lawyer. Approximately how many people, simple, I have no idea. More than 10, yes, more than 50, yes, more than 100, yes. There were people in New York who knew he was gay, there were people in Dallas who knew he was gay, and they settled in the hundreds. Did you tell anybody before in September of 1975

that you were a homosexual? If I were asked, I am asking you. I don't know what you were asking. And they make the argument to newspapers lawyers that, hey, this was already somewhat public a fact. But his personal business was his personal business. I have never attempted to obtain publicity for the fact that I am gay or predominantly homosexual in my sexual orientation.

He was a private citizen. I have made my home approximately 1,800 miles away from home, up my parents and my family, so that I could move somewhat freely in the gay community without the fact of my sexual orientation getting back to my parents and family. And it goes on. But the newspapers made this other argument that was like, okay, whether or not you're living a double life, whether or not you wanted to

or whether or not you had to, there's something here that's bigger than that, that's bigger than you. Which was, he was a private citizen who thrust himself as anybody would hope they would do. He ran toward, he went toward danger. And when he did, he also thrust himself into the public eye. And a journalist, when you're in the public eye,

you become something else entirely. You become a public figure. Yesterday in San Francisco, a shot fired. When that happened to Oliver, he lost his right to privacy. I'll make one more try on the gay thing. And the newspapers argued when it came to Oliver's sexuality. You wanted to change your mind, honey.

No. It was news at the time. It is, and it all pertinent times has been my judgment that Mr. Siple's activities in the gay community are highly significant and newsworthy for two important reasons. First, on March 6th, Sergeant Leonard Matlevich disclosed that he was a homosexual. So like we said, when Daryl Lemke was writing that article about Oliver,

you had this big story about the US Air Force trying to kick this guy Leonard Matlevich out because he was gay. And Oliver has heard nothing from the president. The president later said that he that had nothing to do with Oliver being gay, but to people at the time. The suggestion that the president's said that he that had nothing to do with all of being gay, but to people at the time. The suggestion that the president's expression of gratitude to Cypill might have been affected by rumors of Cypill's activities in the gay community.

That was new. New Secretary Nusson was asked if that was the reason President Ford has not yet personally thanked him. Second, lies the innuendos. Cypill's public display of heroism and saving the life of the president of the United States. The distortions or gay people of child molesters. Presented in image that gay people are like everybody else, that they're heroes. Image certainly contrary to the stereotype of persons

associated with the gay community as weak and unheroic figures. Which is to say this is newsworthy. This is worth knowing. And it is something that the whole country wants to know, and the value of that is more than the value of this individual person's privacy. Do they make it that explicitly? I mean, sort of putting it in terms of the public benefit outweighs the private privacy.

Yeah. So, all of this case, it dragged on for nine years. So from 1975 to 1984. But this is, I'm quoting the judgment. The record shows that the publications were not motivated by morbid and sensational prying into a balanced private life, but rather were prompted by legitimate political concerns,

i.e. to dispel the false public opinion that gays were timid, weak, and unheroic figures, and to raise the equally important political question, whether the president of the United States entertained a discriminatory attitude or bias against a minority group such as homosexuals. So the court tossed Oliver's case out. He lost.

He didn't get a dime. I mean, if you think about it, it is weird that a journalist can just take a person's most private details. And then if it feels relevant, like if they can make that argument, they just put it out there. Like, if we were to go silent because somebody says, don't say that about me, then and the government backs him up. But is it if it's meaningful

than the person out of which the meaning is being pulled painfully has nothing to say about it? That's really gonna make it. It's really hard. I mean, I was thinking about this, like even sort of on the train coming over here. Again, Daniel Luther. And it's like the the thing that makes journalism law

so complicated and the things that make an invasion of privacy discussion so difficult is that like, what makes something not an invasion of privacy is not that it's okay, it's that it's politically, you know, relevant. So like the fact that the story, the fact that the private details of his life are politically relevant means that it's not an invasion of privacy.

It doesn't mean that it isn't rude or that it doesn't hurt. It means that it's an appropriate story to feel out to publish. But I do think like why should the journalists be the only ones to decide what is newsworthy? It's not like what why is it that then journalists you you just pick up a notepad in a pencil and all of a sudden you have so much more power to say what say a ball than then anybody else? Well, I mean we have a this sort of long tradition of that in the United States. I mean, like that's like what the First Amendment is. I mean, I don't know, I mean, it's like, yeah, sure.

Like it's like why do journalists get to decide that? Well, like, who would you rather have decided? It's not a perfect system, but it's, you know, it kind of works. So, so is Oliver just like this? This is producer Tracy Hunt, who is in on the interview. Somebody whose life is basically kind of sacrificed to the altar of the First Amendment

and it's like, sad way? Yes, yeah. Yeah, it feels like he was sacrificed from all sides, actually. Yeah, it feels like there's this one kind of man in the middle, and then there are all these forces around him, these like, these larger than life forces. Like the White House, there's the game movement, there's the freedom of the press, and all these people are sort of batting around, all these enormous and important abstractions, and then in the middle of it, there's this guy that just is trampled by all of them.

And so what ends up happening to him in the end? Well, apparently, some people in the gay community, during and after the lawsuit, felt that he was trying to go back in the closet, so they sort of turn their backs on him. He surprisingly, he was friends with Harvey Milk till till the end. Like when Harvey Milk was assassinated, all of her simple went to his funeral. And he did have one brother, George Sr., who stuck by him throughout, but his parents did not. And they never fully accepted the fact that he was gay. And to when his mom died, it was so bad that all of her siblings' father

didn't let him go to the funeral. And because he sort of, he had so few people, I guess, at the end, and because there weren't, there weren't a lot of news articles about him, and because a lot of people in the gay community from that time have died because of the AIDS crisis, it was really hard to find out what happened to all of us simple in those last five years of his life. And the only way we could was because when we were talking to Daniel Lutzor,

he mentioned this interview that he did with this guy named Wayne Friday. He was a friend of all of us. Wayne Friday was sort of like a pillar of the community in San Francisco, like a pillar of the gay community and then also a sort of political figure and he was a cop and you know, he was, he was sort of fingers in every pie kind of thing. Wayne died last year, but Daniel still had the transcript of their conversation about all of her symbols last days. And so we found an actor, the very gifted Gordon Pinsent, and we had him read it for us. Okay, let me have a go. I forget was 1975 the Sarah J and more. Yeah, that I met him

around 73. He was a swamper at a gay bar called the cockpit. Swamper used to clean the bars at night. You know, they set the bar up for the next bartender in the morning. That's what he did. He did it at two or three different bars. He was always at the bars. I'd say we actually became friends because we discovered we were both from Michigan. Bill was a good guy.

He was just a fucking alcoholic. I mean he'd get his disability check once a month and he'd go down to one of the bars in the tenderloin where he used to hang out was called Queen Mary's pub. He'd go in there the day he got his check, swear to God, he'd spend his whole fucking check on everybody. And he'd get broke the rest of the month. He just couldn't control himself. And he was a little bit of a blowhard, you know. He'd get to runk him loud, and he'd get tossed out of bars.

I used to drive him home. Head in the apartment on Van Ness had a little studio. Maybe a one bedroom on the first floor at about Turk. He'd be drunk of the nail at the barn, I'd drive him home, so I was nowhere lived. And after this thing with Ford, it really fucked his mind up. Siphyl was a broken guy after that. The whole thing worked up. The publicity of it all, and the fact that everyone knew he was a faggot, you know. the publicity of it all and the fact that everyone knew he was a faggot, you know. He said to me a couple of times, I went to the Marine Corps and I got hurt and now what am I known for? For being a faggot. And I'd say, no, you're not. You're known for saving

the president's life. He won't be known for what you did in bed for Christ's sake. But he would get drunk and he'd start be moaning that. I'd sit there in the bar with him and I'd talk to him about it. Hey man, it is what it is. But he was just, he was just down to nothing. This thing happened and it overcame him. It was too much for him to handle. And I think he got the feeling sorry for himself and his family. Just many a night I would sit in the bar with Bill Cippell and he'd cry on your shoulder and you'd say, okay Cippell, it's time to go home.

And then I'd drive him home. I remember it was raining. It was pouring, fucking rain. Bruce called me at my office over at the DA's office and said, when will you do a well-being check on Cyphe for me? And I said, why? And he said, nobody's seen the dude. He hasn't been around for a while. So we go out there together, and it was raining.

And I'm ringing the bell, ringing the bell, ring. He doesn't answer. I noticed on his door, there were these little stick-em-things, post-its. And he had befriended this little old lady who lived next door. They kind of looked after each other. And she'd left all these notes, Bill, call me. I can't get a hold of you. So I rang the manager's bell.

And there was a little Filipino guy. I showed him my badge and I said, you got to let me in. And so he did. And the door opened and I knew what was going on. It's the smell. It's the smell you never forget. It's a sickening, sweet smell. Bill was sitting in the chair. He was bloated. He was bloated out real big. He had a bottle of Jack Daniel sitting there, and the television

was still on. The coroner told me he'd been dead about ten days as near as they could figure. God, I didn't know he was only forty-seven. I thought he was all with that. Anyway, I got the guy to open the door for me. And the minute he did, I said, close it. And then I had to stand there and wait for the coroner. I remember it was very small. Casket wasn't open.

The funeral was just like that. I mean, there were more media there than anything else. I've seen him buy drinks for more people than we're at that funeral. He could have been buried in Arlington if they'd made an issue out of it. I mean, shit there, he was this national icon, a gay whatever, and there were just a few people out there for the funeral. I believe in human life, and I think that this country stands for human values, including life and freedom. I'm first and foremost a human being who enjoys and respects life.

I feel that I feel that a person, worth is's worth, is determined by how he or she responds to the world in which they live, not on how or what or with whom a private life is shared. These are these are my words and they're my feelings. This is all I have to say I have a subject. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station.

I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to the next station. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room.

I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. I'm going to go to the next room. This story was reported by Lot of Nasser and Tracy Hunt. It was produced by Matt Kielte and Annie McEwan with Lot of Tracey.

Special thanks to Bruce TH Burke to Stacey Davis at the Gerald Ford Presidential Library through the GLBT Historical Society, Stephanie Arias at the Huntington Library, James Kramman, who's Gordon Pincin's agent, and has long as run the subject of Gordon the actor you heard just ending the piece. Wow, yeah. Just wow. Yeah, thank you to Gordon. Special thanks also to Alan Jones, Danny Meyer, and Floyd Abrams.

Thank you all. We had original music in this story. We used a lot of music from a guy named Patrick Cowley. He was a guy who grew up in Buffalo, moved to San Francisco in the 70s, like Oliver Cippell. And in 1982, he died of AIDS. This music was released posthumously by the label Dark Entries. We're super grateful to them and to Patrick Cowley wherever he is for the use of his music.

And last but not least, before we close, we just want to say a very sort of special belated goodbye to our senior producer, Jamie York, who did a little of the legal research in the story trying to, because we had to really probe did a little of the legal research in the story trying to because we had to really probe fairly deeply to get the legal files. Thank you Jamie for doing that. And for every trip. For guiding so many of our stories and our whole team for the last few years, Jamie, we will really miss you. Yes, we even do eat this very moment. Miss you.

Alright, I'm Chad, I'm Umarad. I'm Robert Krohwich. Thanks for listening. To play the message, press 2. Good afternoon, this is Daniel Dutzer. I guess the message is for Latif. I'm calling in. Hi, this is Joey Buster and New Haven Connecticut.

Hi, this is Dan Maraine, Sacramento, to record the credits. Okay, radio lab was created by Jazz Abarad and is produced by Storm Wheeler. So, starting now, still in chief Dylan Keith, the director of cell design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Rachel Kufack, David Gable, Bethel Habtis, Tracy Hunt, Matt Khilsey, Robert Koldich, Annie McEwan, Latish Nasser, Aliso Donald, Ariad Wack, and Molly Webster,

with help from Amanda Runchek, Shima Olii, Shima Balanjus, Shima Olii, Nigar, Fatali, CB Wang, and Katie Ferguson. Our fact-tector is Michelle Harris. If there are any problems with that, please let me know and I'd be happy to record it again, but I think that should work fine with you know, other than stuff. Thanks a lot, look forward to hearing the piece. Bye. And this message. with, you know, other than stuff. Thanks a lot, Luke, for adhering to Hearing the Peace.

Bye. And this message.