Radiolab - Radiolab Presents: TJ & Dave

Episode Date: April 2, 2013

Improv comedy puts uncertainty on center stage -- performers usually start by asking the audience for a prompt, then they make up the details as they go. But two actors in Chicago are taking this idea to its absolute limit, and finding ways to navigate the unknown.

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Hey, I'm Chad I boom rod. I'm Robert Crilwich. This is Radio Lab. The podcast. Okay. So last week, we just did a thing about certainty. And doubt. Yes.

And, you know, one of the questions that was silently lurking there was like, what are the mental tricks that can help a person walk through a period of intense doubt? And while we were researching that show, I was trying to think where I have seen the most intense, almost, you know, literally theatrical uncertainty. And there happens to, I don't know, do you like improvisational comedy? I have a bit. I would like to be, but the experience of watching improv makes me uncomfortable. Well, that's the thing. I'm going to introduce you to two guys who do something very interesting with that discomfort. Because if you talk to true comedy nerds, they will tell you there are two individuals

who take this improvisational dare further than anybody else. Hello. T.J. and Dave? Yep. David Pesquazquez. and T.J. Jagadowski. This is us. And this is Robert.

Hi, Robert. Hi, Robert. I'm producer, Sean Cole, and I called them up because we'd been to their shows. You have two fans here. Well, thank you, guys. I've gone with my wife, with my sister. I've gone with people who went, couldn't stand it because they thought it was so scary to them.

I had one friend who actually wanted to bolt, and I had to, like, hold his leg down on the chair. That's a common reaction. Yeah. Okay, so what do these guys do? It's so special. Well, in normal improvisation, and people come onto the stage and they ask for, you're at a party.

And you've got a French teacher. They have to make up a seeming about that scenario. And then it lasts for five minutes or so. Well, these guys, they don't do that at all. They get up on stage. And this is T.J. Jagadowski. They introduce themselves. We are super happy to be here as we hail from Chicago.

They do a little crowd work back and forth with the audience. We're very much looking forward to improvise. for you, trust us. This is all made up. But then, boom, lights go out. And when the lights come back up, there's two guys on stage just looking at each other.

And it looks like they've just suddenly woken up and have no idea who they are. No. No. They don't know if they're a man or a woman? No. Not yet. Where they are? Correct. When they are? No assumptions. We're completely tabula rasa. from the very beginning, it's understood that we're all just going to find out together. Right.

And here's the thing. This is going to last unbroken for the next 50 minutes. It's like a one-act play with characters and plot, and they can't stop, can't break, and they have no idea what they're about to do, none. So wait, if they're, if they have no script, they have no plan, they got nothing, they don't even know who they are, how do you even begin? Well, I'll tell you what I'm. It looks like they just stand there and look at each other until... You'll bounce back, man.

One of them speaks. You'll bounce back. And then it's on. I don't want to get into it. Yeah, you'll bounce back. Tough day. At this point, what do you know? All I know is we're friends.

We're in some sort of indoor setting. I think it looked like that. Nails. Males. Breathe it out. Breathe through it, right? What they say? Breathe through it.

To breathe it into the area that's bringing you to paint? Yeah, breathe into it, yeah. Breathe into it, man. It's one of the guys upset. Yep. Something's just happened. We could hear some of screaming from out here. I don't know, some kind of fight.

Yeah, look, you know, I say what I need to say? That's what I do. When it happens, you know what happens if you keep it in? You keep it in? Yeah. Yeah. Like Jackie Robinson. Yeah, right.

All right, so some kind of fight just happened. Yeah. And one of these guys, he's, he's, he's, he's. is feeling like he just lost. I don't know why. I don't know who we are yet. But they gotta keep going. Did he look?

Did he look like stunned? Did you get... Yeah, I mean, I got it. Yeah, there was at first. But, you know, at first. Hmm. To his fight, I was with the boss, I think. Well, we were all rooting for you out here.

Thanks. Thanks. Their boss. Yeah, we'll see what the fallout is. Okay. Now we know it's a corporate environment without decent leadership. We got no leadership. No, right? Yeah.

Top-heavy if you ask me. A little top-heavy. Yeah, a little top-heavy. All right, so two guys complaining about a boss. Yeah, but right at that moment, they both shout in the same direction. So the geography of this setting. Kind of crystallizes, because now we know the boss's office is off to the right. Yeah, there are facts that are revealing themselves now, literally, you know, blueprints.

Yeah, you know what? Because you got to ask yourself, you want the job or you want the story. Yep. But we still don't know where it's going. I'm fine. I'm going to be fine. Yeah, you're going to be great. You're going to be fine.

to any corporation or company. I don't know about that. Yeah, I do. That's nice you to say. It was heroic, you know? It was like you were riding into battle for everybody. But then, there comes a moment. You brought the banner in there, and that's pretty, that's pretty awesome.

Hey, you know what? If you don't stand, you know, because you'll fall for anything. Right, right, right. And it's right. You know what? And I know it's a softball team. There. But we start somewhere.

We'll start somewhere. You know, find it by what? Yeah, well, he's going to play short ball. It's not because he's a district manager. Suddenly it's like, there is a little bit of an exhale of like, oh, right.

Well, now we know that. That does make sense with the things we have seen up till now. And also I think the delight in, oh, wow, it's been that all along. Right, right. Because we're just paying attention to what happened since the lights went up. Nothing else exists.

Right. So one of the things that happened since the lights went up is when I mentioned something about cancer. Cancer. Right. Yeah. TJ said Jackie Robinson. Like Jackie Robinson.

So that went in my brain. And this is the only way you're going to get these kinds of moments, which are both surprising and obvious at the very same time, is if the performers are genuinely as surprised at what just happened as the audience. And the only way that can happen is if we actually don't know it. And so the not knowing is where the, that's the goal. But I mean, I assume you have the usual amount of self-loathing that most people have. Probably more.

So why aren't you afraid that you will look for this story between you and nothing will occur? Please don't bring up this question. Is that a constant fear? Yes, absolutely. T.J. says, before the show begins, there's an absolute, like, maelstrom going on. inside me personally. But here's the truly fascinating thing. The way they deal with that maelstrom,

all that anxiety about what's going to happen is they tell themselves this story that this thing that they're creating, they don't actually create it. They don't make it happen. It's already happening. Without them. It's all already going on.

It's not our job to make it. It's already going on. What? All right. So you know the moment they mentioned at the beginning when the lights go dim and they're standing just about to begin. They'd say at that moment, the stage is literally swirling with all these characters.

Millions and millions. Billions of it's all. Billions of stories. Going on. And the moment the lights come up, one of those stories gets frozen in place and they just step in. Here's how TJ describes it in a documentary.

Believe that there's this. thing going on that the show is already going on this it is already in process and we pick it up at a moment somewhere within this progression but that the show itself started a long time ago we didn't know it and we don't know which show we're about to join already in progress so we get to live it or physically represent it for 50 some odd minutes and then We leave it, but it keeps on going, that the people that were represented for that amount of time go on to have marriages and divorces and children buy property and maybe die a natural death a long time in the future or die in some horrible accident soon after we see them. To think of the show as it's already all set. And all I have to do is stay out of the way, takes a huge pressure off of having.

I'm not a determining active part in this. I'm along for this excellent ride that's already excellent with a friend of mine if I just listen and pay attention to him and what the show is doing. And do you actually believe that the show is already going on before you get there and everything like that? Or is that just, is that a story that you tell yourself? or is that more of a... That is an excellent question. Thank you.

And I don't know the answer. Really? Yeah, I don't know if... I don't know if it's going on before or after. I'm not sure of that. But I do know that right now, this is happening. And it's not of our making. I remember recently a friend of mine said,

hey, how did the show go last night? I go, oh, it's crazy. This one guy ended up killing himself. And he stopped me and goes, you know that's you, right? You know that, right? You know that you're talking about you guys. And the honest answer to that question is what exactly? Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, I know. I know what he means. Just so you know, over the course of the hour, they start playing all kinds of different characters. The show expands and expands. You meet coworkers. Have you been here the whole time? It's on a call.

Eventually, you meet the boss, and then the workers discover that the boss has been intentionally throwing softball games. Contest. Because they're playing clients, they don't want to embarrass them. We're throwing games. Not always. We're bowing down. Sometimes. Taking it up to Fannie from Cotonnell because you need their business.

So the workers hatch a scheme to kidnap the boss. Maybe tie them up and put them in a van. So they can finally win a game. So we can't show up at the game and screw up the batting order and things like that. And it just keeps going on from there. Respond honestly in these tiny moments, one little thing onto the next little thing. It's that step off the platform before the next piece of floor comes to be under that foot. It's like a beautiful dare sort of the whole thing.

It sounds like you're talking both about life and about the show as a beautiful dare. Yeah. I mean, our tendency is to take what you guys do and transpose it onto other things. Do you think, do you do that? Do you think how we perform is how people or how we should live? Or does that seem silly? It seems silly and I agree with it. I do know that when I can get, you know, in the real world, closer to the idea of what I do when I improvise,

I know I have better days. When I don't presuppose too much, try and predetermine too much, when I am taking things as they come in the moment, I know I'm living a less anxious life. And when they're up there, on the stage, in the lights by themselves, with no plan? It's the most, it's the best hour all week. So, he's still, he's still in his office.

At large, he's still at large. Yeah, yeah, he's loose. It's just so encompassing. It is a really still, a really still place. He foiled my every attempt. No one's going to ask him. for anything. No, no, no, no one's going to call.

You're just in this kind of sealed bubble with, with someone that you trust implicitly. And there's, uh, there's just a, a real, lovely still to it. What to do? There's no more calm place in, in the world than the quiet of doing that show with David at at that time. Maybe we don't need, need to make them any changes. Maybe we just do better.

I'm going to miss you too. Big thank you to Sean Cole, who helped us produce this thing and thought it up. And to Alex Karpowski, whose documentary we quoted briefly from its quote, trust us, this is all made up. And to Harrison George, whose lesser-known brothers, McCartee Paul,

Len & John and Starringo. Anyway. I'm sure he's never heard that one before. Time to go. I'm Chad. I'm Rod. I'm Robert Krollwich. Thanks for listening. Hi, this is Shelby from Montreal, Canada.

Radio Lab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation and by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.