Radiolab - The 11th: A Letter From George

Episode Date: January 21, 2022

Last week, Lulu heard an interview that trapped her in her car. She decided to play it for Latif. The interview – originally from a podcast called The Relentless Picnic, but presented by one of Lulu’s current podcast faves, The 11th – is part of an episode of mini pep talks designed to help us all get through this cold, dark, second-pandemic-winter-in-a-row. But the segment that Lulu brings Latif is about someone trying to get through something arguably much more difficult, something a pep talk can’t solve, but that a couple friends — and one very generous stranger — might be able to help make a little more bearable. The episode of The 11th this comes from is “I’m Here to Pep You Up.” The Relentless Picnic is currently running a series of episodes called CABIN, an audio exploration of isolation, which you can listen to here. The organization where Matt volunteers as a counselor is called SUDEP. The Lu Olkowski story Lulu recommends at the end of the episode is “Grandpa,” and the lobster story Latif recommends is “The Luckiest Lobster.” Special Thanks: Eric Mennel, senior producer at The 11th, and host of the podcast Stay Away from Matthew Magill.Lu Olkowski, voracious listener, super reporter, and host of the podcast Love Me.Radiolab is on YouTube! Catch up with new episodes and hear classics from our archive. Plus, find other cool things we did in the past — like miniseries, music videos, short films and animations, behind-the-scenes features, Radiolab live shows, and more. Take a look, explore and subscribe! Support Radiolab by becoming a member today at Radiolab.org/donate.  

Wait, you're listening. Okay. Go on listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From WNYC. Hey, I'm Laptop Nasser. And I'm Lula Miller. This is Radio Lab.

And this week, Laptop, I want to play something very special. Okay. It's a piece of audio. It comes from another podcast. And I should say right here that this one is probably not for kids. Okay. Okay. So this thing I want to play for you.

I listened to it last weekend. I was not even allowed, just I listened to it a few days ago. And it was like, whoa. I was in Los Angeles driving in my rental car through these dark and unfamiliar streets. And I got so sucked into the conversation that when I got to where I was going, I had to just sit there in the dark, seeing where it went. Wow. Because it was so just.

We don't build it up too much. I feel like I want to hear it. Okay, sorry, sorry, I have that problem. Okay. So the podcast is called The Eleventh, and the episode is called I'm Here to Pep You Up. We had reached out to a bunch of comedians and writers and asked them, do you maybe have a pep talk for us? They wanted to give a little gift in these dark months.

Everything feels twice as hard as you. They just wanted to pep people up. Could you just try to help us feel a little better? And they got all kinds of submissions. Hey Leslie, you're doing great girl. Little essays. So what? You can't swim. You got this. You know who you are. Tongues. So you did it again.

Voice mails. I am Moldo Brian. This is Grammy O'Brien. Moldo. Go read the languages. We'll leave it to you later. I am old O'Brien. This is Grammy O'Brien. I am old and you're so red and white. I'm leaving you on the day. I kinda hate to jump in, but this feels really similar to what we did in the last couple of shows. We were looking back on the terrible year, trying to tell stories to distract people from it

or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like, if RayuLab was my friend, I would be like, are you okay? Yeah. I mean, A, no, we might not be okay, honestly. But B, what they get up to in the second half of the show is something totally different.

It is not a distraction at all. It's not even really a pep top. Okay. They point us toward this raw conversation about a thing you cannot pep talk someone out of. And it ends up somewhere totally unexpected. So that's what we're going to play. Okay. Let me hear it. What is it? So yeah, it features these three guys. Two of Adam juice Kavitch and Eric Janak is have a podcast called the relentless picnic and the third person is their friend Matt who is called into the podcast as he's going through this

really hard thing. And that's all I'm gonna say. Guys, yes, that's me. What's up, Matt? What's up, man? So who's getting married? Yeah, my friend I grew up with James Felipe and they met in high school and they're getting married and kind of bunkport. Oh Wow, Bush country. Yeah, we're off the beaten path a bit. We're I think like I don't know five miles from town or something. Right So is it weird to be going to a wedding? I imagine that's like not a dream thing right now. Yeah, I think when I actually get there, it'll be tough, but it's my friend. So I want him to be happy. And I already talked to him before. Yeah.

You know, just a thing, you know, I'm not going to like make a fucking scene or something. You know, everybody was just like, you know, if it's too much for you to handle, that's what everyone's been saying, you know, because I'm pretty independent, or I don't like asking for help. So this like, this whole process has been really fucked up because everyone is babysitting me basically, or trying to, and you know, like, so he just reached out and just said, you know, if you have to leave, or if he, you know, it he just reached out and said you know if you have to leave or if you know too much don't even worry about it you know everyone's being great because you know right they want to give you like space to do what you need to do but it can also be a little alienating I imagine well that's the problem isn't it like you know it's he is thinking about me but at the same time it's also his happiest day on Earth. So I do all the scene making myself when I'm alone.

I don't worry about it. Yeah, I was kind of gonna ask if there was like a kind of like thing you were leaning on more sense or music or whatever. You know, I'm not, I've been reading a lot. My friends got me, they paid like some dude dude on Amazon like $300 over asking price for an Nintendo Switch, so I was playing Zelda for like 100 hours and that's been helpful, been trying to write stuff down.

I remember about her and thank God for technology. As horrible as it's made us that I can just take out my phone and you know write something down like What if you imagine we're like someone is gonna be listening to this You don't need to share anything you don't want to share that's right And you don't got to tell the whole story to this and you don't want is there any part of what would you sort of say about if someone said What is this guy dealing with what's happened like is there a version of this that you would want to sort of lead off with? You know, I get questions. So, you know, I mean, it's,

well, I mean, it's pretty loaded. But it's hard to think it's second-rate. No, yeah, no, it's hard to like, you know, condense it. I've found the love of my life. Everything I talk about this sounds cliche, but you know, she was, you know, I'd never seen her happier in my life. And, you know, we would just wanted to grow old and be boring together. I mean, we just bought our first house in November on her birthday and, you know, I mean,

she had a disease. And yet, when we brought Eric up to Boston, she had her last seizure of her life until this last one, of course. But we had an appointment at MGH, Mass General Hospital and they figured it out immediately and they, well, they thought they did, of course. But there were no warning signs whatsoever and then, you know, she never had another seizure or a tremor or anything like that. Three years.

Three years to the day, March 26. It's incredible. She had her bridal shower, and I was at a friends' best with party, and her all her family and friends were there. And, you know, she was, and then she died that day, but the thing I want people to remember too, like because she was shy and everything, she opened up into this completely confident person that I don't even recognize when I first met her. And I think you'd feel the same at them. Yeah, you may are so happy.

And she made you so happy that who you guys were after you got engaged and as you were playing this wedding, you were like these shining, fully embodied versions of these ghosts that I'd met years earlier, you know what I mean? Right. Oh yeah, no, I was on a fucking ray of sun shining either. So, I mean, it's just, it's so cliche, but like we kind of did just need each other at all times. And maybe that's selfish, but it's kind of selfless too.

I'm like, I'm a real sap. So like, you know, when I asked her to marry me, I planted for months and had like 50 people come to surprise us and her mom came up and and you saw at the funeral too, how many people came and how just dedicated everyone was and it was stunning. Death had struck and it made the funeral so profoundly painful in this way that no other funeral I had ever been to. There was no looking back. It was like looking forward at this thing that didn't get to happen or something. Everyone was feeling the same thing. No, I mean, that's what I'm most angry about. People keep telling me to take care of yourself.

She'd want you to be happy. and maybe someday I'll get there. But right now, I'm just so angry that everything I get to experience, every laugh I get to see, like every new episode of Deep that comes out, she doesn't get to see it. It's just like, it's one of those things that it's just so unfair.

And even that may not be the right term, but anyone dealing with death, it's so weird. It's sort of like radiation. It's just lingers. Like, you know, people will just keep sending me letters that I haven't talked to forever and care packages and even said your mom was worried about it. It's just like, you know, it's just,

I'm wondering what effect all those people reaching out to you has. Like, does any of it change the shape of what you're feeling in any way? It's extremely touching. And, you know, some people do say the wrong things, but they come from a good place. And I keep trying to remind myself of that.

But, no, I mean, the outpouring has been so crazy because it's not just so fucked. The, you know, I have a pile of letters on my countertop that are from a bridal shower just wanting us to grow old together, wishing us well and stuff. And then there's the next pile from the same people, you know, saying, I'm so sorry. So it's extremely surreal. It feels like I'm in a dream or something. And I mean, next weekend are wedding.

And I've just, beyond crying now, I mean, it happens. Yeah. It's just something will happen and you'll just hear something or see something. And, you know, I don't know. I live near like a baseball field and these kids come over to play every day with their families and shit.

And it's just so weird to just know that that's never, you know, now we can't do that. And stuff. It's just, you know, I'm still's never you know now we can't do that and stuff it's just You know, I'm so living in the house and I have to sell it next week and you know, I just seeing her stuff I mean sometimes I just run outside and Sometimes I just fall on my friends or something, you know, it's just like it's

It's very strange not being in control of yourself when that happens Something you said just really struck me as true. This is the mystery and the pain at the center of human life death and loss. And no one really knows how to approach that abyss. And you, it sounds like mad from what you're saying. It sounds like occasionally you feel like a guilt for bringing people up to that abyss, right? Oh, for sure.

I mean, I grew up with all the system. So, that's gonna be with me forever. Like, I always want to just sort of like charge into the mess. And I know that that isn't the right move with everybody. But the first thing I wanted to do was be like, I mean, it's insane. I gave you that book by Joan Didian, where she lost her house. It was the most intense book about like grieving there ever was. And I was like, here's whiskey.

And it's completely inappropriate. Like, when I was grabbing that, I was like, I'm going to be like, book by Joan Didian where she lost her husband's the most intense book about like grieving there ever was and I was like, here's whiskey and it's completely inappropriate. Like when I was grabbing that shit, it was like... It's helped me a lot because she maybe not feel crazy. She actually, I couldn't bring myself to do this, but she went through all these studies of grief and what it does to the actual body and stuff. And it's like the exact thing I'm feeling, I thought I was going insane.

You, I mean, I hope it's not too personal, but I mean, you told me you talked to your fucking dad for the first time and a long time. And so you, you know, I have to emulate a mario and stuff. And it's just like, it's one of those things. It's like it sounds so fucking cheesy when it doesn't happen to you, but it's like, we don't know what will happen tomorrow.

I mean, it's a major point, Redd. When this kind of shit happens, we can either fall back on certain kinds of formulas, you know, or you either, certain things you say, like, oh, one day at a time, and here's a casserole, or you can, I think you can let it scare you. I do think that that experience of talking about

what happened to Erica going to that funeral put me in this place of like, oh yeah, I'm going to reach out. I'm going to like, I'm going to evolve a little bit. I think one of the coolest things about you, Matt, and you should appreciate this. This is distinctive about you, I think, is that you are not backing down. I feel like it's worth pointing out, man. No, it's really. Thank you. Even that day, even on the day at that funeral, I felt like you were confronting it and making sure she got said and sort of guiding the day. And that is above and that's above and beyond.

Yeah, well, again, I know it sounds cheesy, but she was my entire life. And it's very empty without her. There's so many beautiful people who are helping me, but it's still just, you know, when they're not there, the house is just so quiet and just, you know, I don't really, I don't make her dinner anymore, you know,

it's just those things. None of that sounds cheesy, Matt. I just don't want people to think that like, I have this horrible fear in like a year, if I'm still feeling like shit, it's not my fault. I'm not trying to obsess over it. They don't say it explicitly, but it's implied. You need to start moving on.

It's like, fuck you. It's just like I would love to. But you know. Right. I just like I would I'd love to but you know right Coming up more of Matt's conversation with Adam and Eric and one more surprised person joined in What is helped you that anybody has said what is there anything is there? Yeah It's mostly just actions. It's like, you know, even my friend's just being there, I guess. And that's helped a lot. And, you know, and the thing that Saunders wrote me

was really wonderful. That made me not feel insane as well, you know. Yeah. Well, why didn't it make you like what was different about it? Like you it wasn't a cliche. Like, I don't know because you didn't say it was going to get better. And he didn't he didn't expect me to think that it was going to get better. All it was was just making me feel the way I'm feeling is okay. I would love for you to read it. Yeah, no, I'd love to. So yeah, Adam, you posted something on Instagram.

Next year for one of the last pages last pages of Lincoln in the bar, though, and it just, you know, I think I couldn't stop rereading it. You know, it's just so beautiful and fucked up. And it kind of got lost more than like a stupid romantic film would do, you know what I mean? It was the book I was reading that day. That day, yeah. And so yeah, I immediately connected it in my head to what happened. But I didn't ever think that you had reached out to George Saunders.

Did you expect a response like in your, or did you know? No, no. I figured, I figured, because, you know, but I also, you know, I mean, you just hope. I mean, I don't even know if I I also, you know, I mean, you just hope. I mean, yeah, I don't even know if I, yeah, even if I wanted one, but I was just, I just wanted to let them know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, even if it never got to them, that he was helping me. And I'll never forget it. So, I just, I wrote a, hello, I just lost my fiance two

weeks ago and she was buried this last Saturday. She was 29. We had just moved into our first house together, and we were about to start our life. My friend, Sammy, next year from your new novel, and I keep it with me always, I'm reading a novel right now in my backyard, actually. I don't even know if anyone will see this, but I just want you to know that you have helped me.

I don't even know what to do anymore. So thank you, thank you, thank you. I've never understood loss like this, and the only thing keeping me from taking my life is that I know what it does to others. Be well. And he wrote back, Dear Matt,

oh, I am so, so sorry for your loss. That must be just unspeakably difficult. I'm glad the book is saying something to you. I don't really know what to say, except that someone told me this recently, that grief is a form of praise. You are praising the wonder of the person you lost. The great pain you are feeling means great love. I can't imagine that helps, but it is true. It is like cause and effect.

You really saw a new enchersture. That's what your grief is proving and proving that she was wonderful and that you appreciated that. If you'll allow me for one more thought, I'm 58. It feels like no time at all has passed since I was your age. Soon you will be here. I wonder if it helps to ask yourself, what am I going to do with that very short time I will have before I see my loved one again. The more you do, the more you love, and the more lives you touch, the better. You are here for both of you now.

Of course, I don't know you and I hope I have an offended or over advised, but my heart goes out to you, brother, and my prayers, all the best. So that was the first exchange and I don't know, the kind of discord me. Oh, yeah, let's take a, I love when he, I love that he calls you brother. There's something, I don't know. I know. You see, I see immediately how like he doesn't know you, Matt love that he calls you brother. There's something, I don't know. I know. You see, I see immediately how like he doesn't know you, Matt, but he's worried about saying the wrong thing

and he's worried about like rubbing you the wrong way. Like we're all, we all have like such care for each other. It reminds me. You know, strangers, you know, that we are trying, and this is such a fucking mystery that he is just trying not to get in your way. He only wants to boost you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, trying to make me feel better.

And you know, I didn't, I didn't respond to him because I, you know, I didn't want to bother him or whatever. And then he kept reaching out to me on Facebook. Really? I hope you got my, yeah, I hope you got my notes, so whatever. And I hope you're doing okay and stuff like that. That's incredible. I wrote them back.

I don't know why I had this need. It sounds selfish or something, but I wrote them our engagement story and I just sent a picture of, I don't want us to feel like it's just some weird stranger or something. I know that doesn't make any sense. No, no, to make it real or to show the...

Yeah, and it's not fair to do to someone, like he has his own shit to deal with, but I wanted him to just see her and know her. And anyway, because I wrote a long thing about our engagement night, so I promise I'll stop bothering you. I just wanted to say thank you for your words. They probably do tears.

It means the absolute world. I've already got involved with groups researching epilepsy to help others in their name forever. Or to help with this disease will always be. I'd also ask one last thing and you'll be out of your busy life. I'd like you to read about our engagement story.

Let's you know who we were and not just strangers. I hope that you read it, but if not, I understand. I don't even know really why I'm sending it. I just want you to know who we were. I want everyone to know who she was and what you did for me. But again, if not, I completely understand. You've already done so much for me. Thank you, George, and I wish you well.

And you're up back, Matt. This is so beautiful. It seems you have experienced a wonderful love in your life. As did she. She was a very lucky person to have you in her life. She knew love, and that's for sure. A beautiful engagement story, such a thoughtful and dream like way of doing it.

I will say this, you have known love and known loss. You work with epilepsy groups, you mean that you are minimizing loss and suffering in the world. You feel to me like the kind of person who is going to take this pain and convert it into goodness. Brothers for you, for Erica, integral memory,

please do keep in touch, George. So yeah, it's really something. But it just meant a lot, you know, just complete strangers doing this and I have to cut this short, I mean, I'm talking forever, but that's okay, Matt. I'll leave it with this, like, feeling that this is not really talked about, but I don't want people to feel crazy, you know, the way they're feeling and it's okay and I don't really know what I'm doing with this, but I don't want people to feel crazy, you know, the way they're feeling and it's okay. And I don't know, that's it. I've got to get in love with you, man.

We love you, buddy. Love you too. Bye. Yeah, you know, it's like, and there's nothing you can really say. But watching all these people try, I don't know. There was just something like to couldn't. To me, I think the thing that I found beautiful about it was everyone was sort of telling him like, oh, think back to all your great memories, and oh, there's a, and but he was stuck, like, looking at the future, like the episodes of

Veepe that hadn't come out, or that, like, he was stuck looking at the whole in the future, which is like, I, I, it's like there's no amount of past that can make up for that whole in the future. And then I feel like George Saunders in that letter, he sort of recast the future. Like you're living for both of you now. Like, and it's like, here's the, it's like here's a way to bear the future.

Yeah. Well, thank you, Lulu, for playing that for me. You're welcome. Huge thanks to the team at the 11th. Big thanks also to the folks at Relentless Pichnic, a little update about Matt in the almost five years since that conversation took place. He has fallen in love, gotten married, had a baby, and he now works as a volunteer grief counselor to people who've lost someone due to a sudden unexpected death from epilepsy. And finally, a big thanks to Lou Okauski. She is the one who said, I had to hear that conversation. And actually Lou did one of the most stunning pieces we've ever done at Radio Lab.

It's called Grandpa. And it is also about two people looking very closely at death. I highly recommend you check it out. And if for some reason you don't want to listen to more stories about death, I recommend you listen to a story we did called the luckiest lobster about a woman who rescued a lobster from a grocery store. Yes, or that one. Either way, thank you for listening.

We'll be back next week. Radio Lab was created by Jada Bumrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulumiller and Lot of Nasser are co-hosts. Susie Lektemberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keef is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Q. Sik, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Pascutiatus,

Sindunian Assummbendum, Matt Kielte, Annie McEwan, Alex Nusin, Sara Cari, Arianne Wack, Pat Vulters, and Molly Webster. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Creeger, and Adam Shibil. Drew Downey from Daphne, Alabama. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Science reporting on Radio Lab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simon's Foundation

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