Radiolab - The First Radiolab

Episode Date: January 28, 2022

Jad started Radiolab roughly 20 years ago. And now he is stepping aside from hosting and producing the show to replenish, to think, to rock in his chair and be with his kids and wife, and maybe make some music. The news has been all over twitter and there’s a letter from Jad and our hosts Latif and Lulu on the website. But in this episode, Jad talks through his decision to leave and the future of the show with Lulu and Latif. And then, as a parting gift, we play him the very first episode of Radiolab (“The Radio Lab” as he called it then). He tells us about biking the CDs over the Brooklyn bridge just before the show was supposed to air, reading the news and weather between segments, and then we just sit back together and listen to where it all began. Jad, for those of us who have been radically changed by the thing you put out into the world, we are both sad to lose you in our ears and endlessly grateful for what you’ve given us.

Wait, you're listening to radio lab from W and Y That sounds great. I'll say the thing you guys know what I'm gonna say because I've already said it. I probably won't cry this time Yeah thing you guys know what I'm going to say because I've already said it. I probably won't cry this time. Yeah, we can make you cry. Oh shit. What is it? Hey, Jack here, a couple days ago, I sat down with Lulu and Latif because I had something that I wanted to tell everybody. Maybe you've already seen this on Twitter or heard about it, but I just wanted to say it here to all of you and also to have them with me when I did. Yeah, do a rough like get yourself in the mood. Yeah, okay. Well, sorry everybody. Hello, everybody.

This is Chad. I have, I would say I was going to start the year with some big news, but actually we're already into the year, but what is time really these days? I have some news that I'd like to share. It's almost 20 years ago, roughly, that I started Radio Lab, and it has grown and grown and become this incredibly vibrant, amazing team of people. And for a while now, I've been wondering to myself, when would be the right time for me to step aside as host? And allow this thing that I've created to evolve into its next chapter. And I think that time is now. So I've decided to step aside as host of Radio Lab.

My last episode will be on your story, Lulu, coming up in the middle of next month. You guys know that you'll never completely get rid of me. I'll be around. I plan to take long walks with all of you in Fort Green Park, at least the Brooklyn contingent. And I plan to support you guys however I can, but this, you know, other founders have gone through this and I sort of look to how various people have dealt with this, but like this feels to me like a natural step. Everybody here at the team has worked so hard to establish this group, and it really is the most beautiful, talented collection of people I can imagine.

This team, you guys in particular, along with Soren and Susie and Pat and Dylan and everybody, you guys are poised to take the show to new places. And it just felt like this is the moment for me to kind of do anything in my power to allow that to happen. And I just can't wait to be a listener and to just experience what you guys make along with everybody else.

I can I just say like when you told everybody, the moment you told the whole team there was this pause and then there was just all this really authentic gratitude and this sense of people being happy for you. Like not happy that you won't be around because we love your edits and we love your like grumpy comments to have us take an idea further and pass the first thought and everything, but I think there was just this sense of like, this man deserves to unfurl a little. I don't know, I don't know.

Maybe to articulate a question that maybe is on people's minds, I don't know, are you about, did you just sign a contract with some giant company for a cagilians of dollars to go make a new thing or something? No, the real answer is, no, no. I'm just gonna take a minute to recharge and sort of look around.

That's the honest answer. And it felt like, I mean, I just wanna say this as loud as I can, like so many of the stories that I have loved on Radio Lab in the past got year, two years have happened with very little involvement for me. And so it just, I feel so comfortable walking away now. And I needed to feel that. I needed to know that this was in such good hands. And that's one of the reasons it made so much sense to me to bring the two of you on.

You both are like these hybrid humans. You are of radio lab and that we've been working together forever. And we share a powerfully sensibility. But at the same time you are radically, fiercely your own people. And you make decisions I would make and I end up loving it. It's that sort of sense of like knowing where you're coming from, but also my inability to imagine where you will go.

That's what makes me excited for you guys to, you know, in partnership with Soren and Susie and the whole crew to take the show into the future. So, peace out. Bye. See you. Wouldn't want to be. No, no, no, no, no, no. Basically, I'm trying to stay. I just, I love you guys to death and my heart will always be with the show.

I mean, first of all, we love you too. But also, there's no way you won't always be at the heart of this show in some way. Like, the way we do things, the way you sort of impressed on every one of us on the team, we're always just going to push the show to do unexpected things, to go to sort of very intimate places, to be just so ambitious,

like those things more than any topics or set of voices, like that's what's in this shows DNA. Yeah, totally. And for me, I just want to continue the tradition of always making shows that take you somewhere, they take you up into the stars with a laser, they take you into the mind of someone of racing memories in real time

or right up to a canvas painter, Joe, and you hear that swash, like I'm being shaken awake and I'm being taken somewhere. And then I come back with that slight glow of a visit. You know, like I've been elsewhere, but it's of this world. So I wanna make sure we keep doing that. And just looking at what we already have on deck,

like we have so many treats in store. The very next thing we're gonna play after this, that's a one that's gonna take you somewhere beautiful. That's a pine-centred, psychotelic listening experience about something that actually takes place here on Earth. Yeah, totally. I mean, that feels like the beating heart of what we've always tried to do.

And in terms of both of you continuing to do that, I can't even stress how little I worry about that. And I'm really excited. The thing that actually keeps me from being sad and whips me into happy is to think, well, I'm not going to know what's going to come in the feed. And that's going to be really exciting. That moment when I see something show up and I don't know what it is. And I experience it like everybody else, I'm just going to be so excited. I can't wait to give myself that gift. Yeah, and we're very honored to give it to you.

Truly. But we do have a thing to play today. Should we turn to that now? Yeah. Yeah, I have to actually, I'm so in the dark about this. What are we doing? Purposefully. Okay, so what we were thinking about what to play.

Reached out to the archives we went. We went into the dusty archives of WNYC. Oh, God. The very first radio lab ever, which was, do you remember what this was an episode about? Unfortunately, I do remember. It was called first, I think, right? It's called first.

It's called firsts. And have you listened back to it? Well, a couple of years ago, Ellen and Soren dug it up, and I heard just a tiny piece of it. But I don't think anybody has heard this, which was by design. Well, we are going to change that. Wow. Can you actually go play it? It's really good. Yeah, you are going to change that. Wow, will you?

It's really good. You're going to play the whole first hour. Because here's something else you guys don't know. So it was a three hour show, which meant three CDs, and in between the CDs, I would actually do the weather. Really?

Yeah, I would do the weather in the news. So basically, so here's what would happen. So I, in the basement of this house that I'm talking to you from, I would create the show. And you know, this will not surprise you, I would work right up until deadline. Yeah. Shows on Sunday night at 8 p.m.

I'd be still like bouncing it Sunday at 7.15. And then I would get the CDs, throw in my bag, and I would bike Down flat bush onto the Brooklyn Bridge and I would like rock it over the Brooklyn Bridge It's fast as I could and I would run up there and I would like throw the CDs in hit play And what time would you have been doing that bike ride? It was 8 to 11 Sunday nights and it was on the AM Yeah, so you know how WNNYC has an AM and an FM. Oh, I didn't know it was AM.

Yeah. So you're kind of super like low AM. The AM signal was so weak, especially that time of night. And I was like, oh, this is so low stakes. Nobody can even hear this show. So that was it for about a year. That's what people heard. Okay, we're gonna listen to him.

I'm gonna attempt. Hold on. Okay. Every radio producer has this idealized image in their head of you. Maybe you're sitting on the couch drinking coffee, staring out the window. Maybe you're the person who couch drinking coffee, staring out the window. Maybe you're the person who's driving

and you pull over to really concentrate on a story. Whatever the case, that image in the radio producers' brain of you, the listener, it's why they make this stuff. It's the lonely thing. They don't get paid much. They lug around these heavy recorders and mics, and they look, frankly silly, in those headphones they have to wear, but it doesn't matter, as long as you are there to listen to what they make.

WNYC is about to embark on an experiment. We're calling it the radio lab. Oh my god. Just need to find a radio lab. I'm the radio lab. Oh my god. Just need to find a screen. The radio lab I die. And what we're gonna do is take great documentary radio and stories of different sizes and shapes, colors from different places all over the planet from different times even and we're gonna mix it all together, like this. I'm not gonna cry. So why are we to find this place?

We gotta go for a walk. A big brew of people and places. But it'll take two hours and 59 minutes to get through all of it. And trust me, it sounds better that way. Chad Abumrod here. I'll be your... Hmm... Host is not the right word.

Curator, guide maybe. How about DJ of documentary? Oh, Jesus. Love it. You did, DJ. You do. You doxed. That is so courty.

I love it. Since this right here is our first ever radio lab, how about we string together a series of stories about firsts? What do I say? What's the first thing I play? Oh, it's amazing. It was not what I expected at all.

It made me love you even. There was a, well, you'll hear it in just a second, because here's what we're going to do now. We are going to stop interrupting and just play that whole first hour exactly as it was. Because yes, it sounds different. The pace is way slower, the production is different, but you can clearly hear how maybe the most central thing

to you, Dad, is so alive in this first night, which is that you're handing off the mic to other people. You want them to be the guides into worlds. You couldn't otherwise reach. And that's something that's still so alive today. I know that we're gonna carry that forward. So here we're gonna play it. We'll come back at the very end to ask you a few more questions,

but without further ado, the first piece in the first episode on first. Here's youth reporter, on first. Here's youth reporter Ariel Adams. She brings us a story she aired on Blunt Radio in Maine about a traumatic first of hers. My first memory of menstruation is the voice of my grandmother asking me if I'd started to menstruate.

And since I hadn't, not to worry, it would come soon. Growing up, I always imagined I'd get my first period right in the middle of school. I pictured blood flowing out of my body, soaking through my white skirt, and dripping onto the white classroom floor. I was not only petrified by this image, but the idea of being physically able to have a baby develop inside of me wasn't too plus in the thought either. I caught my period when I was 14 years old. It was Christmas break of my eighth grade year, and my family and my parents' close friends had traveled to Mexico.

I don't remember how I felt during the days leading up to my first period, but I do remember exactly what happened when it came for the first time. We had been traveling around Mexico all day, driving through remote villages and climbing my enruins. One hot evening halfway through our trip, I went to the bathroom, pulled down my pants, and there it was. Not heavy and red, but light and a brownish hue. For a second I didn't even know what it was.

I walked outside of the bathroom and assessed the spectator situation. See, I didn't want my dad or my sister to know, but I had to tell my mom. She was excited and gave me the whole, you're now a woman in tampon pad speech, and took me out to get some supplies. After about half an hour of wandering, my mom and I found a little convenient shop and quickly searched for feminine products. When we couldn't find any, my mom approached the counter. Remember, this was Mexico, and in English,

asked the rather matronly employee where pads were located. When it was clear the clerk was not bilingual, my mom began to use her hands and body pointing to me, simulating the flow of the menstrual cycle and demonstrating that I had my period. Immediately, the woman took us to the aisle where the pads were located. Putting the pad on for the first time was a demeaning experience.

Five inches thick and 12 inches long, honestly, who invented these things? My final days of Mexico were punctuated by the joys of a four-pound weight in my underwear and the knowledge that was now a woman. I had expected to feel different about myself, but I really didn't. Getting my period wasn't a monumental experience of my adolescence. It was just a big hassle and a letdown. But let's not leave it at this. Half of the world's population does have a first period story, so here are a few more.

Girl, you'll be your woman soon. First time I got my period, I called up, this was before it happened, it was during the day, and I called up this girl to go mountain biking, and we went, and the terrain was pretty rough, it was rough terrain, and so the terrain was rough, and we were riding along. How rough was it? It was really rough terrain. There were rocks and sticks and things. So I'm riding along. It was a hot summer's day and I hit this like rock log thing and I I fall into the the bar

and it hurt like a bitch and I thought that I broke my pubic bone, which is where the bone's meat in the front. And it was killing me. And I was like, this hurts a lot. And I probably got bruised. I didn't like that closely. But anyway, so it hurt and I was like, wow, I wonder what's gonna happen.

So I went home after, I continue mountain biking because I'm tough. So I got home later and I was playing a little Super Mario and I was like, I think I'm gonna go upstairs with the bathroom and then I'm like whoa I'm bleeding and I thought it's because I broke my pubic bone but actually the next day it turned out that I had my first period It was three days before summer vacation of seventh grade and I remember I was wearing one of my favorite dresses and I came home from school and my stomach had been feeling

really funny all day, so well, I discovered the little surprise. It was the summer after 5th grade and I was at summer camp and I don't really remember where it was but it was somewhere in the middle of nowhere and I got my period and like my mom had always talked to me about it like so I knew what I was supposed to do but I was so freaked out because I was like away from my mom and I was so homesick as it was and I didn't know what to do and so I spent like two weeks like in total like Horrification if that's a word and I would like write letters to my mom be like, please let me come home Please this is horrible and like it just it was it was so bad and like my best friend was at camp with me

But I just for some reason I still don't know why I just wouldn't talk to about it And I didn't end up telling her for like three years that I had gotten my period that summer at Summer Camp. So how did you get any sort of supplies? I had to like, I don't even remember, I think I ended up like stealing stuff from my best friend, and then like, like getting stuff from the health department or at the camp or whatever. But I just remember it was so bad. And I came home and I told my mom and I was crying.

And she was like, oh, you done, done, done, done. And she never sent me back to summer camp after that. I'm going to my home. I'm going to my home. Like I was in student council, right? And like I, like my stomachs are starting to hurt and I was like, it feels really weird. Like I'm cramping or something and then when I was like, Lindsay you probably have your period and I was like, no I don't because I like 13 And and so then I went home and my period and then I was like oh my god Yay!

I was like no my girl. You were excited that you got your period. Yeah, because now I'm a woman. What's your mom's say to you? My mom was like oh my little girl's girl. Yeah. I'm thinking, I'll survive, everything will be okay. And I made it through that. Nothing big happened happened nothing stained any of the dresses or the shorts Went home got into bed and I knew it was coming

I knew but I refused to put on a sanitary napkin. I was like this is not happening to me I woke up the next morning at 7.45 covered in my own blood I was petrified I started to cry and got in the shower and I was like, Mommy! And she told my father and my father told his best friend. So by the time I went to school that day, everybody knew. What were people saying to you? Congratulations, Becca. Now you're a woman. I didn't want to be a woman. No, no, I was 13. I was not ready and I refused to acknowledge it was happening.

Just tell me about the story. What happened? Just tell me. Detailed by detail. I have no idea. Really, I passed out. You like looked anywhere and passed out? No. No, it just made me sick, so I passed out.

Girl, you'll be a woman soon. It was on the last day so it was great and my parents were away and I was staying with my aunt and I went over to sleep over to my friend's house and I had it there and then I had to go home, go to my aunt's house and tell her and I'm not really close to my house, so it was kind of weird and my uncle took me out shopping for pads. Was that really weird? Yeah, yeah because he's like my step uncle, he's not my real uncle. So why didn't your aunt take you out? Because she had to go to work. So what do you feel like? What do you feel like when you're going around with your uncle like trot? Because you didn't know what you were doing, right? Did you know what to pick? No, I had no idea. So we just picked the cheapest guy.

No. Well, it was the fall of my eighth grade year, and it was the day before my championship meet for Cross Country, and I went to the bathroom after practice, and I was like, oh my god, what is that? But there's something wrong with after practice and I was like oh my god why does that? But there's something wrong with me and I was like I can't believe it. I think it was sort of my periods.

I went home, my mom was like oh my god, blah blah she's like here take this pad and it was like seven inches thick and like ten feet long. So I was like okay. So the next day I had to wear that and like you know when you first get your period you don't believe that much at all. So like there was really no point in me wearing it. So I had this huge pad on, and I had to wear, like, these running shorts

and try to run my race. And I was, like, woppling across the track. It was so awful. And, like, my period was a regular for a long time, so, like, it didn't really bother me, but my mom insisted that I wear these really big fat pads all the time, and it was so awful and so uncomfortable. ["You'll be the one who's still." For Blunt, this is Ariel Adams.

That piece was called What's That in My Underwear, first period stories. It was produced by Ariel Adams from Blunt Radio in Maine. We return on to it by our buddies at Third Coast Audio Festival in Chicago. That site is filled with new voices and cool stories, so check them out at ThirdCostFestible.org. As for Ariel, here's what she would like New Yorkers to know about her. Let's see, she, I'm reading now. She likes hot chocolate, fat beats,

and a stimulating conversation. We can at least give her some fat beats. Okay, we're gonna take a quick break. When we come back, we're gonna play the rest of the first ever hour of Radio Lab. Quick warning for when we come back. There are two more stories still to go. The last one, the last 15 minutes of the hour has some pretty explicit discussion of the dark thoughts that go along with mental illness may not be right for you or your kids. But we'll be back in just a second. Okay, we're back with the second part

of the first ever episode of Radio Lab. Chad Ebbumrod here, this is WNYC's first ever radio lab. Version 1 will call it. We actually have a lot more youth voices sprinkled throughout the show. So here's one right now. This next story is a first but not in subject matter. At the time this documentary originally aired on all things considered, there had been other radio pieces done about inner city youth. Probably a whole bunch, but none quite like this one. Stories told by the people who are the story, Leland Jones and Lloyd Newman. The other person

to be aware of is Dave Isay, the producer. Dave hired Leland and Lloyd as public radio reporters to document their lives for a week as they grew up too fast in a rough neighborhood in Chicago. This was in 1993, both were 13. They decided to call their documentary Get O Life 101. Good morning, day one, walk in the school, leaving out to dope. Leaving out to dove. This is my dog for rocious. You know why I got that name if you're here in bark. I see the ghetto every day walking the street.

Guys, that's not gonna call on the burn in the fire. Be here some a time, winter time, spring, fall, every day. They're drinking the hair, probably some white port, will it pee? Jack, that is a young Jack. I live here, this is home. What's up, Henry? I live here, this is home. Start, Eric. Start, do do.

This is my walk every day. It's a technique on a little journey through my life. Here's my life. Here. Here. MUSIC My name is Liyal and John's, and I'm 13 years old. I live in the house just outside the AWL's projects. My best friend, Lloyd Newman, lives in the AWL's. This is our story.

Everyone in our pickup load on the way to school. That we are ready to work. Shroud with our Tabby quarters and microphones. Got the Tom Broke Hall. Looked me like Tom Broke Hall. You got the Tom Broke Hall looking like Tom Broke Hall. You got the Tom Broke Hall looking at the set of I said I can't do anything. This is late November and I'm 14 years old.

I live with my brothers and sisters since I've been well project. I really describe Lloyd. Lloyd is short. He weighs about 75 pounds. I have an inch between my fingers when I put it around his wrist. Got a head like a Martian. All right, let me talk about the yammer. His belly take up his whole body.

Like, you're here to take up your work. You're here. We've been friends since first grade. That's seven years. And seven years of life together. I'm a school partner. I'm a school partner. I'm a school partner.

Our first doctor dad is Donna U. elementary school. We're both in that grade. His water culture streets from Louis house and the project. He's seen it. No no no, this is mine. Good morning, D. Edna. Well, they wanted an eighth of it. Trying to rally in the morning. Absent, sunshine hunt, absent, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body, body Johnson, ask. That's before our home room teach. We give her a hard time. Girls, would you please shut the door?

Sometimes we learn. Most of the time it's just to rout it learn. I just support myself. I can buy you things I want you to do. Because I want you to have a break. Now let's try working on yours. OK. We have an interview that our principal, Mrs. Toast,

about working at a school like that in here. It is hard being a teacher, and this neighborhood... Yes, yes, it's difficult. Not so much because the children are really indifferent. It's difficult because of the publicity that surrounds the area. And you don't believe that we believe you're smart. But sometimes there's no denial with smart. After school they were.

Me and Leela head down to our hotel with our tape recorder. On the bus, someone tells us that they're a professional basketball player standing at the high-end regions. Or being top-notch reporters. We head to the hotel and check it out. You hit a nice music to play? or being top-notch reporters. We had to go tell him, check it out. You hear this nice music to play? Yeah. We go call him. A few minutes later, we scammed our way up to the 20th floor.

That's what we found. They're Ellis. Hey, Gar with the sad Antonio Spurs. You let his interview him in the drawer. Yeah, I'm gonna not be Wells. What party, what party, you know, the state of you from? Uh, Atlanta. Actually, Mary-Yet, I'm 20 minutes north of Atlanta. I know that you play by the side as you want a three point contest. What are some of

your greatest achievements in life? Well you know the biggest achievement I think is just being here one four. We chewed that with death for about 15, 20 minutes. It was cool. Math was all my favorite subject. It was always my favorite subject. Thank you. Now you autograph. God damn. That was Dale Ellis. That was Dale Ellis man. That was Dale Ellis thank you. Dale Ellis was a senator. Tell me your story. After we finished with Dale Ellis, Lord and I figured we did enough for our first day as reporters. Man, I'm tired.

We're late, Todd. I think I'm about to have a backstool carrying the stuff on my back. Okay. Are we talking to you guys later? I'm out. We gonna buy a house day two. One house, day two. The yelling leaves just a block away from me. In the old house, my oakwood boulevard. The out three houses attached to the side of ears. One of us burning, two of us just abandoned. And one of us, and then it's over.

It keeps moving on, and on, and on, and on, and on. When it rains, rain comes in. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more.

And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And the other house is a little bit more. And then it's over and it keeps moving on, and it's over to the side. When they get cold outside, they get cold in here. When it rains, rain comes in here. Whatever nature do this house do.

Me and my front room now. How you doing, Tucci? OK. That's my mother. Everyone calls that Tucci. Hey, hello, dear. Hello. My little sister, Jerry. My little sister Jared.

Walking up the stairs. Leale grabbed my grandpa lives on the second floor of the house. A paricketing flight of steps. Listen. That shows her really out. My grandmother moved into this house in 1937. Her name is Juman Rijones. I interview her in a room.

It's still day two, just 1206, hello? Hello. What are we going to talk about tonight? We're going to talk about the neighborhood. I changed it. Yeah. How do you think it's changed? To the Father's Worse. when we first came in the area,

there were no projects. They were all homes. And at one time, we had nice hotels where different movies stars would come in and stay. How many of you started making change in April? It wasn't all of a sudden. It happened gradually. Day by day, year by year,

you can see the change when people would move out or maybe the reason they're on it would pass and their family didn't want to build them. And they would just go down. My grandma raised eight kids in this house. Her two oldest boys died. Now she has six kids. Now she has six kids. I have three boys and three girls. They all sport right. Oh. And so are the grandchildren and especially you. I get you.

What type of child was on that one I was like? Well, I was a whining child. No. He was a nice little red-headed boy with blue eyes. I have blue eyes, a brown-headed. They're blue. They was lighter with you and you. And your hair was lighter. And it would turn white in the summer and darker in the fall.

Well, how it was on there? You got your name from your two oldest uncles. The oldest boy's name was Alan and the second boy. I did you this name was Eric Lee. And your mother made the two names, your name out of the two names. I said, and they were no common name. What my name is, is Jim Smith.

Because you're different. Your name is different and you're different. My name is Lee Allen, Marvin Jones, and I get- And she gave you the Marvin. For Marvin, yeah. With what Marvin gave, because she liked it hearing, say.

My name's Cinnamon. Yeah, your name is special, and you're a special person too. Thank you. Thank you. Compared to other people in this neighborhood, my grandma said she's added easy. I think I've been blessed, because things could have been a whole lot worse than they have been.

But she has had a shared troubles. The kind of think you should never found me around here. My grandmother had one son who was murdered. She has another son who's addicted to drugs and is in and out of jail. Her grandson, my cousin, Jemaine, came down with a kidney when he was six.

He was cured, but the medication left him learning disabled. It upset his mother so much that she started drinking. Now he lives here with my grandmother, sleeps in a bed. I owe her. I'm never going to be 20 this year. What do you think about your mother? She OK. You love her?

Yeah. She's not drink as well. She's starting drinking or not don't. Me and my mother and my little sister all stay downstairs in the front row. I sleep on the couch. My mother and my sister sleep on the mattress on the floor. Even though my mother lives with us, my grandmother also has custody of me and my sisters

because my mother's mental illness. This is my mother, Tucci. I've been on medication all for long since 1977. She's OK now, but she's had a lot of problems in the past. It's upshadowing to see it when she's sick. One time, I had went down stairs. And it's a long story, but I started seeing shadows on the porch, on the back porch, but I used to look at the window at night.

And it would look like Ronald Reagan, and he would talk to my grandmother. And I was hearing voices. And the voices told me to give butt naked. I had did that before, to, check out my clothes out. What's that voice out of here? Man, voice, or a female voice, just voice. Just a regular little voice up there. Who is my father?

Your father is a felony, Toby Flippin. He's saying, he knows you exist. He's saying he wouldn't use about two. And that ain't saying no sense. What do you think happened to him? He probably did. Thank you. Okay. Lord, it's about two blocks from my house in the Ottawa Wells Projects.

The Ottawa Bees are made up of about 3,000 units. Most of them are low-rise houses. A Ottawa Bees are made up of about 3,000 units. Most of them are low-rise houses. A lot of them are in miserable conditions. Now we're walking in the Ottawa Bees Wells, which is 50% houses are boarded up. Now we're going into my house. We're knocking on the door. Kick on the door.

I hope she has your phone. I thought we were walking into our house. I thought we were gonna be. The old times is kinda messed up. There's a lot of roads just keeping around. The toilets have been stopped up off the North for years. Places always noisy. Noise mother, dad, two two years ago was drinking. It's father's also an alcoholic.

So, Lord's two older sisters haven't been bringing them up since then. No older sisters so feel with the closest to their mother. How did you react to when you heard that she died? I was very upset. I just thought my life wasn't worth living. I wanted that too. I just thought we wasn't't worth living. I wanted that too. I just thought we wasn't gonna make it without her. But I see that we made it.

You know, very proud of us. Do you think it's hard bringing us up at the age of 20? Well, I'd be 20 this year on 19. But sometimes you all give us a tough time, but I know, Papi, y'all, that's my brother's sister. All the government up 4 boys and 3 girls living in the house. Lloyd's sister is bringing them all up on the $500 Mont-Wale Fed check. It is an easy.

My name is Michael Murray. My name is Tilly Beck. He's got the liquor store. Almost every day Lloyd's father visits the house. His name is Michael Murray, but everyone calls him chill. They gave him that name. I used to shoot food, I used to call him house. Any kind of way I can get somebody. When he comes over, he's almost always drunk, and the kids make fun of him. Like today, they ask him, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, I asked my father to, what his best memories of my mother are. Me and I have fun, putting our feet in the water together.

It's so bad thing. Once you start getting high, then my memories come. They go. Why are you drinking? I don't want why I'm doing it. Do you think you're going to stop? Yeah, I'm going to every half. And take care of myself. What do you drink? I drink about two or three times a week on the day.

But they ain't helping me, they ain't doing me killing me. People understand this is strong, yeah. I've been saying this story, you why do you still drink it? That's why I got to go on the me. I don't know if people understand this is strong, yeah. I've been saying this story to you. Why do you still drink it then? That's why I gotta go on the rehab for one next week, because I don't want to destroy my family

because I want my family. Do you think you've been a good father? Yes, I have to the best capability out there. I don't know for the questions. Why are you saying that, damn it? Every Saturday evening at Lord's house, a bunch of people come over to play cards, mostly Lord's sister friends. Usually the game lasts all night.

I laugh about 11, 30 or 12. I met up with Lloyd the next morning. How'd a car game go last night? I won $1, and it was $80. Hey, but how'd you been fighting that all the time? I don't keep what you everybody think I I'm hooked man. What's up star, I can't stop. You want to roll to one for brefs? Shit you bad. I took the other two josses restaurant on 30 nights to eat for brefs. Alright, what else?

Since lowly at $80, we ordered everything on the menu. You did with the army, I want a hash brown and bricks. Alright, let's go. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread.

I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread. I'm going to get some bread the main. You deal with the army, I want a hash brown and bricks. Okay, now, what about this French toast? I want the French toast with sauce.

I want a juice. Hold on a minute, let's hold on. Man, that was one good breakfast. Toast with bacon. Just now got through the bloody Johnson's restaurant. Man, that was one good breakfast. Friends toast. What day is it? Just now got through the community by the Jars's restaurant. I ate 12 first toast. That was too loud.

It was pretty huge. What do I get? We all ate the whole store. Oh man, I can eat again. What stuff's done in your home? That's how we do it. Eat that. Tell your family to eat it and talk. That's all we do is eat that. Tell two babies eating top.

Let's get a little bus, man. [♪ music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, Just ride to the end of the line. Take a break from everyday life in the ghetto. They're going to bus. Yeah, let's go. Let's go. Let's go. Hold the bus. Hold the bus. Hold the bus. Hold the bus, please. On the bus, we just sit back and look out the window and trip out. You wait. I was most sure of every time.

Breakfast full, lunch full, my dinner. Dinner full. This would all be no G. You know, one week, one week, one week, six, seven. When we on the bus, we talk about anything and everything. I don't see how I'm trying to eat people go to school. Seven days out of a week. It's a mess.

I fish a couple of beer in Oriental people. Oriental, that's just like, oh, our aunt's here at 8 am. Take that sign. Because it's just a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who's a man who Only in the room. I'm a terrible mom. You love your home, you love your kids. When a nice-looking female gets on the bus, he's like a letter no we didn't. Hey, girl. He said he liked you. He said you were a tractor.

He said he's just an animal magnetism. He just attracts me. He's so long alone.ism. He's just a trashy piece. So long alone. Man, say, love you. I just love you. I just love you. You. You.

You're trapped so much. You're dead. We just like to act a fool on the bus and get some attention. You're almost hit a cock. Ooh, that cock came out. Oh, no city. I think we did. Oh, no, we did.

We were there to ask for the thing we were there. No, the basic, I was a fool. Like a moneca. I can't move. Man, I keep moving my neck. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. No, bro. What do you feel that grub in those old plastic, though?

I talk about the kind like my congestion. Rubber nose. If I have a fight they hit me and it just bounce my dog, but I hit me in my nose. I found out that in the morning while we were eating breakfast. My cousin Tony got jumped out one of the gangs in the neighborhood. They beat him up so bad they put him in the hospital. He wouldn't let me interview him, but I recorded him why I told his friend on the phone where I can. I'm out of home, you know what I'm saying?

I'm breathing in there with that. But I can hear it, I ain't, you know what I'm saying? I ain't cold. Tony said they beat him up until they knocked him unconscious. They ain't hit him a couple more times in the mouth. That woke him up and he got away. He says it's just a blessing that he made it back home. It's a blessing that I made it back home.

They don't think that's the problem. I think we're the drive I took place last year. But the air rook is shut down. So folks, right now, they'rex right now, it's a little. Yanks and violence are just the way I like for this neighborhood. And now we see the four of what a port used to stand. Oh, I can see how.

Just the block from my house is a big vacant lot. That's what a port used to be. And all moved the other day with the headquarters for the air ruckus street. Until the city tore it down. We standing on the ground now. We still see the caution, Paulie's barrier. We're just in that grade. A lot of kids grew up with already joined gangs.

When we were walking around the neighborhood, we spied our friend Gary selling drugs. Gary! Still up, man? The other asked him what he thought he would be doing in ten years, since he already dropped out of school. I don't rely on him to do nothing, I don't know if he's gonna pop my head. He says he won't be alive in ten years, because we're in southern Georgia, so someone's gonna shoot him before that. I don't know why some kids just give up hope and others like me and Lloyd hold on

Maybe it's just that both me and Lloyd have at least one strong person in our families to watch over us But no matter what the situation every kid who lives in business will have to grow up fast I was mad under where drugs came from and I was 10 I'll say my first automatic weapon, a Glock 9, two clips. I see all cats go. Forty-fold, twenty-two. Ticks. Ticks. That's our right cruise. Living around here, you get shot all the time. Like, V&O, sometimes, here, out here. Buk-buk-buk-buk-buk-buk-buk-buk-buk. Side, buk-buk-buk. I remember one time I was on my aunt's house

running the night. We played Super Nintendo. I just let it out. I heard you been looking for me, nigga. Then she just, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. She let off about eight shots. Then I heard the other gun fire off. And we just still there playing out.

Like, nothing to happen. And then you be an arm. Now people came back crazy. How living be an arm. So what you think I'm gonna be about living and they just went in vividly. Living while he matters to be pressing. And it's depressing.

I'm walking towards the make-fin. Sometimes when we boy and man else to do, we get on the bridge which goes over lakes to dry. When we draw rocks and cars below, try to crack their wish's, and then run. Many of them's are one of my favorite targets. That's brother and that. Hit the right brazen. Right, right, right! Throw it now.

You just drive me a car. Ooh! That's it. I hope you're about to have people. Most of them wanted to sell my baby's boy, even the way they did. You just have some fun. No, I come on, let's start running. All right, I know what I'm supposed to wish you.

You got to insist. I'm okay about them. Well, I knew I'd take those, don't do this. They popped down, we down right back up. It definitely ain't easy growing up in the ghetto. Don't fall me in love at all, okay? But it's always tough to start a trouble in this environment. The poverty, the drugs, the pressures, the tragedies.

It gets to people. You never know who's going to get a trouble. Or where they're just going to give up. Like Lyallus sister, Janelle. We're back at Lyallus, huh? Sister back here, sleep. I'm not rooming. What time you got in this morning? You stupid.

You really last time you been to school. Oh, the sister, Janelle. When she was my age, 13, she was in honor of school. She wanted to spell it be. She was just a lousy little toy in her class. Then when she had four kids, she started bugging out, hanging around with the wrong crowd, staying out all night, stopped going to school.

The week before we did, I recorded you. They're almost done. She drank too much and had to be rushed to the hospital. And I interviewed you. Come on. You know, tell me about yourself. Well, I'm about yourself. When? I'm very in a zettie.

I like to have a lot of fun. I drink a lot. No, I don't. Yes, you do. You smoke marijuana? No, I don't. Yes, you do tell the truth. No, I don't.

You have a seven chain? Yes. Have a child? Yes. How are you when you heard this child? 15. You see, how many close friends of yours have you got, have you got killed three years?

I don't know. I can't count on all of them. It's been a lot though. You think it's around 50? No, I don't think it's that many. But it's around 30 or 40. Probably somewhere in that area, maybe a little less than 30. Do you know the who killed the murder these people?

I know who killed someone. Like who? Like Belle. Who killed him? I don't tell you who killed Belle. Who else? I know who killed Slick. Who?

I don't want to tell you ready? Who else? CZ? Who the hell killed him? I ain't gonna tell you that either. Thank you. My grandma slipped across the hall for my sister. She keeps an eye on Jinal and the rest of us.

She's been through a lot in of us. She's been through a lot in this house. She's been a lot of years worrying about her children. Now she has to worry about her grandkids, but she's a strong woman. Sometimes I'm thinking about what my habit to have found me if my grandmother's dies. A lot of times I've had dreams that she's dead. And when I wake up, I run upstairs to make sure that she's still there. I get on to the bed with her on my ground five and talk about all kinds of things. I wore my ground five.

There was light before he had all his strokes. He was wild. Like a stay out in the street all the time. He over the baton's ass. Yeah. I feel like he's sleep. I see the eyes going. You try to see what you're talking about. I go to work all day and stay out in the street all night.

Didn't you work at the cow coming here? Stalk you out. She worked at the stock out. Yard has a look. And you were carrying the cows on his back. The cow with 1,500 pounds. He's looking. He's carrying half of it and putting them up on the hook.

How did you carry the cows, Wendy? How you doing? Get squashed. Get a hay for the cow. How? How on your back? That's why we all got strong back bones, huh? Yeah. My grandmother says she gets her strength to carry on.

Her wisdom from the Bible. She loves gospel music. And of all the songs she knows, the one she loves the most is called One day at a time. Could you please sing that song for us? When my voice out mess up. Do it. One, two, one, two, three. Do you remember when you walked among me? when you walked among me. Well, Jesus, you know, if you're looking below, it's worse now than then.

They're pushing and shoving. They're crowding my mind Lord, for my sake teach me to take one day at a time. I'm sweet Jesus. That's all I'm asking of you. So help me today. Show me the way one day and a time. She was horz, but she still can blow. Thank you. Peace out. Peace out. Peace out.

Peace out. Peace out. Peace out. Peace out. This is Liyal and Jones and Lloyd Noom. Peace out. Peace out. Well, go back. Uh-uh. Stick. I said my- I said my leg.

I said my leg. I said my leg. I said my leg. Sing here. And we're going to be peace out on my leg. Peace out. Peace out. be peace out on my way. Be Zzzzz! You know how theater people always talk about the fourth wall, that invisible barrier between audience and

performer. Get old life 101 breaks down the fourth wall. Don't you think? Leale and Jones and Lloyd Newman, they basically come into your home and hang out with you. And I say his work in general is very visual. It's like a movie except better. You know, you don't even have to imagine the images. They just pop into your head.

The story was produced by Dave I say as I said and it won a Peabody award and basically created this whole subgenre of Docs which we now call Diaries. I'm Chad Abumrod. This is Radio Lab, WNYC's weekly experiment in documentary sound. To recap, we're smack in the middle of a journey through a series of stories about firsts. What is the first image that comes to mind when you think of electro-shock therapy? Torture, one flu over the cookers nest. Clear your brain of those thoughts, because in this next story, you're gonna meet a guy who feels very differently about

Electroconvulsive therapy as it's commonly called He says it saved his life. You'll hear a tape of him during an ECT treatment that might be a first The piece is produced by Dan Collison and it's narrated by Rob McGruder. This is his story callison and it's narrated by Rob McGruder. This is his story. Sometimes it comes without any warning. I wake up and it's just there, like a dense fog that's descended on me during the night. One day I'm fine and the next day I'm severely depressed. I feel like I'm hanging on the edge of a cliff. There doesn't seem to be any way of pulling myself back up to safety and it gets harder and harder to hold on.

I have impulses telling me to end it all. I have bipolar disorder. I've attempted suicide three times and have thought about it more times than I can count. I've been in and out of mental hospitals more than a dozen times. I've been homeless and have lived in shelters and on the streets. I've been arrested for vagrancy, have lost jobs, and have had two marriages fail, all because of my mental illness. I'm 45 years old, and as I speak I'm doing pretty well. My wife and I have moved into a new apartment on Chicago's west side, and I'm starting to think about working again.

Last winter, I was hit hard by another severe depression. It took many months to come out of it. The fact that I'm speaking to you at all is a victory of sorts. I'm going to tell you how I got to this point. The story begins about a year ago. Yeah, this is Friday. The, I have no idea what the date is today.

Um, I don't idea what the date is today I know today's Thursday tomorrow's Friday. I guess I'm a little confused I Haven't worked since Tuesday when this really kind of got started Mostly I've just been laying around feeling completely awful The depression is just taken over again like it does and they're just weird kind of thoughts that pop into my head. Well, I could do this. I could drive the van into a railroad pile on it, high speed, that kind of thing. I'm gonna have an ECT treatment tomorrow.

And I'm glad I have something that at least in the past has worked, and I hope will work this time because I was so suicidal that it was, I've got it, this is like the last thing I'm holding on to. The next morning, I wake up early and ride the L down to the University of Illinois at Chicago Hospital where I check in to the outpatient surgesant. I had to ask you how tall are you? 6'3, 6'3, how much do you weigh? 3'5, 3'5. I've been through all this before, so I know the routine.

I change into a hospital gown and a nurse inserts an IV needle in the back of my hand. For me, it's probably the most painful part of the whole procedure. My psychiatrist, Dr. Jack Krasuski, who will be administering my ECT today, drops by the prep room to have me sign the consent form and see how I'm doing. His pattern is one of some people slowly kind of slide down like a gentle slope into a depression, but for Rob it's it's almost more like a cliff, you know, he'll just kind of feel it coming on and within a day or two he can be severely depressed and you know just be overwhelmed with suicidal thoughts and impulses you know unable to kind of

get his mind off of that and he'd be a high suicide risk and that could have a very quickly over a day or two. Ready? Yeah, then I'm wheeled on a gurney into the ECT treatment room. The staff all know me by now. So how's the baby? Getting bigger and he's hardly a baby anymore. CT treatment room, the staff all know me by now. So how's the baby? Getting bigger and he's hardly a baby anymore.

The room is on assuming small and cramped, barely enough space for me and Dr. Kruzuzki and his team. A resident, a nurse and two anesthesiologists who immediately start working on me. We attach electro- and sufflographic leads to the person's head so that we are able to monitor the brain waves before during and after the procedure. This all used to be a little scary, but after so many treatments, I'm pretty relaxed. Although there are still some things I get nervous about. A couple of things, getting the mouthpiece set.

Getting correctly is really important. The mouthpiece, it ments me from biting my tongue during the procedure. During an ECT treatment at another hospital years ago, the mouthpiece wasn't positioned correctly and I ended up needing several stitches in my tongue. You got them there, Philip? Yeah, good job, Thrust. I've also found that taking in a whole lot of oxygen just before the treatment prevents memory loss in post-treatment headaches.

Memory loss is one of the major side effects of ECT. Patients have lost as many as two years of their memory after receiving an ECT treatment. So when the oxygen mask is placed over my mouth, I begin to take a series of deep breaths. I'm ventilated pretty good there. I'm given a general anesthetic through my IV, followed by a muscle relaxant. Robert, this is a good thing. This stinks and you know that. So the point of these agents is to have them be asleep and then the muscle relaxant prevents

their body from moving because when a person has a seizure, those discharges from the brain cause the body to convuls and move. And if that is not control, the person could hurt themselves. There could be a lot of very strong movement and very strong muscle contractions. And before the use of these kind of agents, you know, they're like compression fractures of the spine or even broken limbs were,

I wouldn't say common, but, you know, they did occur. You got 140 a sacs that much? Yes. I'm completely unconscious now as but you know they did occur. You got 140 insects that much? Yes. I'm completely unconscious now as the drugs work through my body. A blood pressure cuff around my right ankle prevents the muscle relaxant from reaching my foot. This allows Dr. Krizuski to observe the muscle contractions in my foot to determine if the procedure is working.

A puffy from my head, a device that looks like a home stereo system sits atop a red-crassmon tool cart. It's the ECT machine or thymacron box, said to be the Cadillac of electro shock devices. On the front panel are five knobs, including one that controls the voltage and a yellow button labeled treatment. Two cables come out of the back attached to two paddles that look like they're from an old crank telephone handset. The resident smears globs of conducting jelly on the stainless steel cups on the end of each paddle,

the electrodes, and places one paddle on each of my temples. Then Dr. Krasuski gives the okay, and the resident standing at his side presses the yellow treatment button. And there's a brief electrical discharge, which can last an average one or two seconds. The total amount of current that is given is usually less than one amp, 0.8 of an amp. I'm not aware of anything at this point, but I'm told that when the electricity passes through my head, my body tenses and my face grimaces. My right foot, the one with the blood pressure cough, twitches, which means the electrical charge has caused a seizure.

And the whole point of the procedure is to induce a seizure that lasts between 20 and 40 seconds, and we like to have at least about a 30 second to eat e.g. seizure. Still seizing, yeah. This seizure lasts 34 seconds. No one's certain why inducing a seizure with an electrical charge makes severely depressed people like me feel better. There are plenty of theories. One is that a seizure changes the level of chemicals in the brain.

Another is that it causes a shift in the body's hormonal system. Some have compared ECT to a reset button on a computer or an even cruder analogy that it's like banging the side of a fuzzy TV set to clear the picture. After that, we're pretty much finished with the procedure and then we give the person a few minutes, usually takes a few minutes for them to get over the muscle relaxant so that they can start breathing on their own and also to start waking up from the anesthetic. And usually that does occur with in, certainly within five to 10 minutes after the ECT stimulus is given.

Robert, we're all done, okay? You waking up? Yes. Whoa. The coughing is actually a good sign because it means the anesthesia and muscle relaxant are wearing off and I'm beginning to breathe on my own again. The whole procedure takes about 20 minutes.

Once it's over, I'm wheeled into the recovery room where I sleep for about an hour. Robert, it's time to go home. Oh, okay. I wake up feeling groggy, but a whole lot better than when I checked in. You slept pretty good. Historically for Rob, you know, it does tend to work.

And the single treatment can really make him feel better quite quickly. So our plan is just to do another one next week to kind of consolidate any gains that, you know, we expect him to have. It's just trying to go home and go to sleep. I'm just glad I have something like this that makes me feel better. better. That weekend I take it easy. The following Monday, three days after my ECT, I feel good enough to go into work. I'm a licensed clinical counselor at a mental health agency on Chicago Southside, but I'm at work for just an hour or so before I'm sent home and told to set up an appointment

with my boss. I suspect I'm about to be let go. Two days later, my suspicions are confirmed. On Wednesday, I'm fired. My boss says I've fallen too far behind in my paperwork. Two days after that, I show up at the hospital for my next ECT treatment. Bill, is your cover room please? Billis, do you have any room? Let's see. Today is Friday. I have no idea.

Let's see. Wednesday was...so today's got to be the 16th. And I'm feeling more than a bit rough. I've never been dismissed from a job before, so that was kind of a real negative experience. It kind of brought me down. I was starting to do better. You know, it's a difficult thing to accept if I wasn't depressed. This is my good round. It's going to clean up your forehead.

The ECT team gets me ready and I do my part in hyperventilate using the oxygen mask. Deep breath. After getting the anesthesia and muscle relaxant, I drift off to sleep. Okay, let's put this pipe back in and go ahead. And now we're applying the treatment. Okay, here I'll do it. This time, the seizure causes my arms to fly straight up,

like a football referee signaling a touchdown. I don't feel anything, but when I come to, I'm a little more disoriented than usual. Yes, something's not right, I don't know. It's not ready or what the deal is, but I feel a little confused, I'm not sure. Typically, I feel better after an ECT treatment, but this time I continue to feel confused and still very depressed. This lasts for several days.

I'm exhausted all the time and have no concentration. All I can do is just lie around. We live at my wife's grandmother's apartment, which is a mess, and I have no energy to help clean things up. The Department of Children and Family Services, DCFS, is concerned about our living situation and is even threatening to take our kids away unless things improve. My wife, Angela, and I have a 15-month-old baby and Angela has four other kids. I'm completely overwhelmed and go to see Dr. Krasuski.

You look like you're looking down. What's been going on? Yeah, every since Friday, I've not been feeling well. It started from when I woke up from the last treatment. I just had a headache. I didn't feel right. I don't know if it's issues, particular to the treatment itself, or if it's just, you know, the stress of everything that I'm coping with.

Dr. Krizuzki tells me that everything seemed to go okay with the latest ECT. The seizure was the right length and the oxygen level indicated that I was hyperventilated, which normally prevents confusion and headaches. We talk for a while and agree to continue my weekly UCTs. You're gonna get better Rob. This was just a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff. It overwhelmed your emotional resources. But I'm confident you know you'll be ready to go back to work and you're gonna enjoy it and you're gonna feel ready. You're gonna be ready to go, but you're right to give yourself some time right now. All right?

All right, good to see you, and I'll see you on three days. Okay. All right. Dr. Kuzuzki has helped me through a lot of ups and downs. He's 40 years old and has been administering ECT regularly for the past four years. He became a believer after his first two ECT patients came out of severe long-term depressions. The response rate is really you know the highest out of any treatment we have in psychiatry. For people who have a severe form of depression a 60 or 70 percent will respond to medication treatment. That still leaves a huge

percentage and a huge total number of people who will not respond and out of those people of 50 percent 50 percent of people who will not respond. And out of those people, 50% of patients who failed multiple medication trials will still have a substantial response from the ECT. Dr. Krizywski has always been clear about the possible side effects. The memory loss, the confusion, even a real though very slight risk of death. He's also clear about the risks of doing nothing for his patients. You know, I can sit there with them and suffer along with them and feel terrible that there's no way I can help them

or I can go ahead and accept the risks for myself and have them accept the risks for themselves that is in tail with the treatment for the possibility of getting better. And so many of them do get better and so many get better, you know, so fully that I think it would just be, you know, almost criminal if this procedure was not made available. The average course of treatment in the United States is 11 ECTs. After six treatments, I remain stuck in sort of a fog. Not severely depressed, but not ready to go back to work or do much of anything. So Dr. Krasuski recommends a more intensive treatment course.

Three ECTs a week for the next two weeks. The goal is to try to break through the fog. Okay, good, I'm gonna press some hole. Okay. Really one, great. No complications and we'll see, you know, I guess the proof of the pudding is an eating and the proof the ACTs and how Rob will feel. The intensive ACTs make me a little more tired and forgetful. I'm losing my keys and having trouble concentrating, but the depression does start to lift.

I think I've kind of turned to the corner this week. I'm finally starting to see a little bit of head above water. My activity level is still along the low side, but at least I'm starting to get feel motivated to do more. For the next two months I have ECTs once or twice a week with an occasional break. I continue to improve. I'm able to concentrate for longer periods of time. I can read a book, for example. Still, I'm not jumping back into things too quickly. I'm afraid if I try to do too much now, I'll take another downturn.

Life with all its responsibilities doesn't stop though. My monthly Social Security disability check doesn't stretch very far, so I'm forced to apply for public aid. That sends me into a tailspin, and for a couple of days the suicidal thoughts return. Meanwhile, the bills keep piling up, and our van is about to be repossessed. I think it's an accurate to think that when someone is depressed and then recovers that all sun everything kind of falls into place. It often doesn't. A person's life has just been very disrupted and you know just kind of kind of daily routines of life. They kind of drive, motivation, energy, doesn't necessarily

like just conflutting back in the absence of the symptoms. It takes often like specific focus intervention to kind of get help a person get back in the swing of things. So I think that's kind of the point we're at right now. In May, I returned to what's called maintenance ECT, weekly or biweekly treatments. The goal is to manage the stress and to prevent the mood swings and the psychotic and suicidal thoughts from returning. They don't, and I continue to feel better,

but just when I can see the light at the end of the tunnel, I take another hit. So, Rob, how you doing? It's been quite a two weeks. Last Tuesday, DCFS took our kids, all of them. It's terrible blow. Are you an angel, a culprit? We're holding up.

As we feared, the Department of Children and Family Services ruled we haven't done enough to clean up the apartment and that we are unfit parents. Our baby, who's now 17 months, and Angela's four other kids have been placed in foster care. What's the kind of future hold for you, Angela and the kids? Well, Angela and I've got to get into an apartment because the current apartment is just not acceptable. My anxiety level is very high and I'm having trouble sleeping.

After three years on the wagon, I've even thought about drinking again. This is a high risk time for relapse and alcohol. Relapse into depression and when the anxiety level is that high, I think this is all kind of a sign that things aren't going in the right direction. Dr. Krasuzki recommends returning to a more active course of ECT treatment twice a week for at least a couple weeks. That's fine with me, but the DCFS case worker seems to have a different idea. Her first comments to me when she came over to introduce herself to me or to say that I see you're getting ECT and you may want to consider not doing that anymore. She was very negative about

ECT. I don't know to what extent she would hold up reintegration of the family because of those beliefs, but it was the first thing out of her mouth when she introduced herself to me. So it must be something she's significantly concerned with. You know, it's really not her place to be suggesting to my patient what the right treatment ought to be. It's really, I just think in appropriate for her to be saying that, you know.

I think you and I are both clear that your function doesn't decrease when you get ECT. It decreases when you're depressed, when you're anxious, and you don't get it, right? As a person with chronic mental illness, I'm used to being discriminated against. Having ECT just adds to that stigma. I've lost friends, jobs, and now I've been labeled an unfit parent. The fact is, severe depression is a disability, but it's a disability that can be managed. For me, the most effective way to manage it, perhaps the only way, is with ECT. It was last February when I was hit with this latest bout of severe depression. Now, more than 30 ECTs later, I'm finally feeling like my old self.

The depression has lifted and my energy and concentration have returned. I've started doing some computer consulting work. Angela and I have moved into a new apartment and we've begun the difficult process of trying to get our children back. Okay, very good so far. I'm never completely out of the woods. It's possible that I'll wake up one day and feel as though I can't go on. Considering the alternatives, ECT's not a difficult choice. And who knows, maybe there will be other choices one day.

After all, over the last couple of decades, new medications and better counseling have helped people cope with severe depression in ways that weren't possible even a few years ago. So much has happened in my lifetime. Maybe something other than ECT will be developed that can help me and others like me. But until that day comes, ECT is there when I need it. That was Rob McGruder telling his own story. Dan Collison produced that documentary, Gary V. Kovino, was the editor.

It was made possible by grants from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting and the National Endowment for the Arts. Dan Collison is made. I don't know the exact number, but at least 30 documentaries. Check him out on his website at www.dcproductions.com. I think you'll find his work has an amazing empathy. I'm Chad Ebumrod. This is WNYC's radio lab. Before we move on to the next chunk, let's a little depressing, a don't know. I got another concoction. I love that, Chad. I want to think that, Chad. He was trying his best. Like, I bet there's so many people out there

who were like you were then. Like you were a kid, you had like, like some experience, but not a lot, but you had big ambitions, you have big dreams. Like what do you say to that, Chad now? I almost feel like that's a different it's so hard to know what to say to the people who are like Jad was then because the then and the now are so different right at that point when I started doing the thing no one really listened and There wasn't the stakes were super low and they so they left me in a benign neglect to stay for, I don't know, a year before anyone

really heard me. Which is, it turns out, I mean, I hated it. I felt very like, taking advantage of, but actually it was what I needed. I needed to just try stuff and to figure out how does one talk in a microphone? What kinds of stories are the stories that I want to play versus the stories other people play? For me, that was a whole year. I don't know if people now have the luxury of that year. I really don't. It's it's it in many ways the exact opposite state of the world and that now like the podcasting industry is like a bunch of coked up worms

having a feeding frenzy on a carcass or something. Like it's just a, it's a completely different reality. What do you think in the honor of first, what do you think is the first thing you're gonna do when you're no longer here on your first day beyond? Gosh, I didn't know. I feel like I should have a good sound by any sort of answer,

but I have an actual honest answer. Yeah, we want that one. What's that? Well, I've done, you know, what would be the first thing? The first thing would probably be to take my kids to school and then come back. And then I'm working on a bunch of music. I'm working on a bunch of music.

It's funny in a way. It's inspired by a very early episode of Radio Lab I've been thinking back and reminiscing these days and I was thinking back on one of the first episodes we made. And I'm not gonna tell you which one because I kind of want to keep the concept a little bit sort of on the DL for the moment. But I'm basically creating a series of very, very long, slowly evolving music compositions and I'll be putting that out soon.

That's cool. That's cool. Working on some music. Do you think it'll be toly? Is it wordless? Is it toly wordless? I think it's toly wordless. I am interested to try, yeah, to go back to that.

Because that was me before radio. I don't know, I'm not sure I'm done with that guy. Would you be willing to share a minute or two of that? Like, as a little... Right now? Yeah, sure. Give the listeners a little glimpse of it. A little billboard for an upcoming having given enough chat yeah we need more from you yeah alright sure

Okay, I just want to say to the two of you, I love you guys dearly. I can't wait to listen to you along with the rest of the people listening. And I am just so honored to pass the baton. Thanks, Dad. Yeah, thanks. The radio lab will be back next week. And the week after that? And the week after that. Stick around.

See you soon. Radio Lab was created by Jada Bumrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulumiller and Lot of Nasser are a co-hosts. Susie Lektemberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keef is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Qsick, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz-Cutieres, Sndunian Assummbendum, Matt Kielte, Annie McEwan, Alex Niesen, Sarah Carrey, Arianne Wack, Pat Bulters, and Molly Webster. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krueger, and Adam Shippell.

Okay, nice job, guys. Hey, Chad, don't forget to return that mic. You know the address. Hi, this is Barbie calling from Portland, Oregon. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org Science reporting on Radio Lab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Simon's Foundation

initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science.