Radiolab - The Girl Who Doesn't Exist

Episode Date: August 29, 2016

In today’s episode, we meet a young woman from Texas, born and raised, who can’t prove that she exists. Alecia Faith Pennington was born at home, homeschooled, and never visited a dentist or a hospital. By both chance and design she is completely invisible in the eyes of the state. We follow Faith as she struggles to free herself from one restrictive world only to find that she is trapped in another. In her journey to prove her American citizenship she attempts to answer the age-old question: who am I? Reported and produced by Alexandra Leigh Young. Produced by Andy Mills and Brenna Farrell. Special thanks to Savannah Escobar, Nick Reed, Chris Van Deusen, David Glenn, Zen Allegra, Russell Whelan, Rachel Coleman and Lake Travis Zipline Adventures. Correction: An earlier version of this episode's web copy incorrectly stated that Faith Pennington was born on a farm. Pennington was born at home in Houston, TX, then she and her family moved to a farm in Kerrville, TX, where she was raised.  Faith’s original Youtube video is posted here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPtpKNyaO0U For updates on Faith’s journey, visit her Facebook page Help Me Prove It: https://www.facebook.com/Help-Me-Prove-It-882732628415890/ Support Radiolab by becoming a member today at Radiolab.org/donate.    

Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From W. N. Y. C. See?

Yeah. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Krollowicz. This is Radio Lab. And today, my name is Alicia Faith Penangton. And I'm a U.S. citizen by birth. We're going to start. I was homeschooled my entire life.

With a cry for help. I am now 19 years old. And I am unable to get a driver's license, get a job, go to college, get on a plane, get a bank account, or vote. This is the story of a woman who became sort of famous. I didn't pick this situation for myself, and I don't know how to fix it. I don't know how to get out of this. For being invisible, for having no identity whatsoever.

If you've been through a similar situation or know anyone who can help, please contact me. The story comes to us from our reporter, Alexander Young. And the young woman at the center of this story, I was born in Texas Is Alicia Faith Pennington Goes by Faith In Born in Houston

And then we moved to Curville When I was real little Like I don't even remember Houston at all She grew up in a really small town About 45 minutes Outside of San Antonio And it's kind of country

We lived right outside of Curville Actually So it was even more In the country than Curville is Faith's parents were very conservative Very religious And they had created A place for their family

that was separate from the rest of the world. Well, hi there. Welcome to the Pennington Point. I'm Lisa, and I just wanted to say a quick hello. Face Mom, Lisa, actually kept a video blog of life in the Pennington family. Right now, the sun is shining, the birds are singing. It's so peaceful out here in the country. So we had like, maybe like five acres of land.

This is our front porch. We bought this old farmhouse about 10 years ago. And we had a little home farm. We had goats, chickens, we had rabbits at one point, a cow that we would raise, you know, we'd butcher it and then freeze like all the meat and then eat it over the year. So was this sort of approaching self-sufficiency or was it, was it, were you? I think what my parents wanted to do was kind of reach that self-sufficient point. But they also really wanted to give there something their kids to teach their mic responsibility. Every day, before you could go play, you had to do a chore.

There was a chore. We had a chart. And it would have the kids' names. How many of you were there, by the... Nine children. Grace, Jacob, Hope, Faith, Patient, Stone, Adam Elijah, and Levi. Ooh. Got that down that.

Where were you in the picking order? Fourth. Oh, right in the middle. Mm-hmm. Middle child syndrome. And her parents, says Faith. They were kind, but very firm, very strict. A lot of rules for how you're supposed to dress. and how you're supposed to look and how you're supposed to carry yourself.

What were some of those rules? For the girls, you had to wear dresses and with super high collars, and we always had to wear sleeves, no sleeveless. Kind of Amish, but not like that conservative. And we all had really, really, really long hair. We didn't cut our hair. And we just didn't have a lot of access to things that they didn't want us to have access to. We didn't have internet until, like, you were like 18 and could get allowed on the internet

for, like, limited sites and stuff. What about television? Did you guys have that? No. None of the kids watch television. If they love electronics, then they don't, they tend to not have as much of a passion for learning and working and their Bible reading. They didn't get to watch a lot of movies growing up. They only listened to Christian music.

Were you homeschooled or did you go to public school or how did that work? All homeschooled. All homeschooled. Every single one. So does that mean that you were like always on the property or? And we'd go to church off and on various times. So we'd go out for that kind of stuff, but just super rarely. Like we didn't, most of the time we'd have.

So mostly you were with your family then. And was this kind of a moral thing? Like we are trying to keep you holy and... I think they just wanted to keep like the things that they thought were, like, sinful in the world away from their kids. and try to keep them safe and everything. But they stuck to it. So if you said, I want this, they would say no, and they win. They'd say, nope.

Yeah, arguing was not allowed. But Faith, actually, she was always just kind of pushing that line just a little bit. I am definitely a lot more stubborn and a lot more free-spirited. And right around her 18th birthday, I just, I don't know, I reached a point, like a breaking point. We were actually having like a little family meeting, and I was with the four oldest siblings of my parents were kind of supposed to discuss things. And then my oldest sister asked, was asking my mom, she was considering getting a job and kind of asking advice or permission if she could. And they were like, no, that brings in too much outside influence. But she was 23. Yeah. And then my brother said he wanted more internet because he

was doing work for our church. And they're like, I'm sorry, we can't do that, you know. You could be looking at things online. You know, we just, you have to shut it off. Then hope, the one that's right next to me, she was 21. She was asking for a phone. My parents were like, no, you're not old enough to have a phone. And so I was just like, wow. You know, I'm looking at my older siblings, and they have nothing ahead of them. We're not allowed to get jobs, not allowed to go to school. They have no life except living here on this little farm.

They have no future. After that night, I decided I couldn't live like that. I couldn't. I was not going to turn out like that. So I had an iPod, and I went down to my parents' room, and I snuck when my mom wasn't there, and I snucked my grandpa's phone number. And since he had an iPhone, I could text him over Wi-Fi from my iPod. So I did, and I said, hey, when y'all come visit the next weekend, I want to go back with you.

I need help, like I need to get away from here. Can you take me back home with you? And he said he would. So grandpa is not of the same mind as your folks. Well, they weren't really on board with how my parents did things, but they always kept coming to see us. And so I knew that they cared about me. And so I felt safe to reach out to them. So the next week, her grandpa and her grandma show up at the farm.

And your plan was to just, you know, just what were you going to bolt or how are you going to do this? I wanted to bolt. I just wanted to go. But my grandpa was like, you need to ask them first. You need to ask permission. So I did. And then they said no, you can't go with them. And then so I was like, okay, because I couldn't argue.

and then I said, or they approached, my grandparents approached me like, so do you still want to go or, and I finally decided that I did. As far as you know, you're the only one so far in the family history that might dare to act on this,

these convictions. No one had ever done anything like that in our family before. So, the next morning, September 24th, 2014. My mom, was on her morning run, and my dad was in his office. He said who was always there working in the

morning. So none of them were in the house. And my grandparents said goodbye to the rest of the kids, and I just walked out the door with them. With a luggage or just with your rig with... Just one suitcase. Yeah. My grandpa had texted my mom and was like, we're taking faith with us, just wanted you to know. And then my mom texted him and said, don't go anywhere yet. I'm coming back. She had texted my dad, and then they both came and tried to get me to get out of the car. They were like, you have to get out of the car. I was like, I don't have to. Like, well, yeah, you have to.

Because we're telling you to. I'm like, well, no. So they got in. And they actually asked my grandparents to get out. They were like, can you get out of the car and we'll get in so we can talk to her? So you were alone in the car with your parents? Then all the safety goes away right here. The only thing I had on my side is that I was buckled in the car and refused to get out.

I think they were just kind of shocked. I was so torn. I mean, it felt like I was just melting. What was it that kept you in the seat? I think it was just telling myself over and over that I knew it was the right thing to do, even though it didn't feel like it. I had to take control of my life.

And after a while, my grandparents were like, we have to go. Like, we need to leave now. And so they left. Just drove away. So these were like, this is, this is what, eight people that you were eight plus two. So this is ten people that you are. Yeah, they're my entire world.

Yeah. I was astonished that she had the boldness to carry out that plan. This is Jenny Ellenis, Faith's aunt, her mother's sister, who, like her grandparents, didn't really subscribe to the Pennington worldview. But she would visit them from time to time at the farm. You know, for Faith, it's even more than just the boldness of least. leaving her family, she believed she was walking into this world that was bad, that was potentially going to harm her. So that first night, she gets to my parents' house. My grandparents said, hey, you can sleep in this room.

And there's a TV in the guest room. And they just toss a remote and leave her alone and said, you can watch whatever you want. Now, Faith. She had never been allowed to pick her own TV shows. No. And so she turns it on. You're looking for a place that gets full sun. And she said it was like a...

Eight to ten hours of sunlight a day. Like a gardening show or a home improvement show or something. And she's sitting there thinking, I don't know if this is bad for me. Exactly. It drains well. Just pour a little water on top. And if it drains away, you're great.

Should I be watching this? Because that's kind of what my parents did. They would kind of dictate what was right, it was wrong, you know, when someone would do something to be, okay, that's wrong. We're like, okay, that's right. And now that moral compass was gone. She suddenly wasn't sure what was good and what was bad anymore.

I am so top. And 19 is a tough place to step into the world being that naive. You know, she was asking me about sex. Like, how do you learn? What do you, I don't know anything. I thought I knew what kind of man you were. I didn't know anything. Even the most basic social norms. Like, I don't know how I'm supposed to act when she'd hang out with her cousin or other people her own age. I don't know what I'm supposed to talk about. I didn't catch most of like the references I'd make. All these other teenagers would be talking about shows, boys, music, movies, school.

And faith? I had no idea. She wanted to join this world we all live in. I mean, even in the most simple ways. She wanted to get a job and learn to drive, have an apartment. But she couldn't. She didn't, of course, have a driver's license. Nope.

Plus, she didn't have a social security number. Didn't have the birth certificate? No. Well, you were born. When you were born, didn't they say? okay, this is the hospital? Well, uh... Wasn't at a hospital.

It was all homebirth. Plus, they specifically sought out midwives that would agree to file no records. Why would you want to do that? Um, there's this whole kind of way of thinking it's called, what's it called? Sovereignty.

If you take some of these documents as they exist, they've got hooks in them. So as I dug into this story, I actually talked to a bunch of people who... The birth certificate seemed like a paper of ownership. For political or religious, or just privacy reasons don't want this kind of documentation from the government.

It's definitely been used for a measure of control. Now, Faith's parents who actually wouldn't talk to me for this story, they're not specifically a part of that movement, but my dad kind of adopted some of those ideas that the government should not have a number assigned to us. They purposefully raised Faith and her eight siblings to be outside of the system. And that's probably something they thought of as a gift. I guess the thinking is that Faith would be free from the rules of society. Clearly, my parents did what they did out of the best that they thought they could do, so, I mean, I'm not going to get mad at anybody for doing what they think they should do. To Faith, it didn't feel like freedom.

It actually felt like prison. And this is where Faith's journey really began. Faith and her aunt and her grandma, they went online, started poking around, and we realized that the first thing you need is a birth certificate. Yes. So you start at the beginning. So let's get you born. Right.

So she applies to the Bureau of Vital Statistics. A government office where they keep track of like births, deaths, marriages, adoptions. And the Bureau of Vital Statistics does a search not only of that name, but of any like Jane Doe babies born in that area. You know to make sure that you weren't stolen at birth from some of their parent or something like that. But they couldn't find anything. So they said the next step is to go to court. So my mom contacts the court. And they wanted three pieces of information proving her birth facts.

What were they? Well, there was a sworn affidavit by my mother, a swearing that, you know, she was at her birth. So we got that one. Okay. So they needed two more documents. She could get a doctor's records, but she doesn't have any. I've never been at the hospital. Really?

Faye says she's never been that sick, never even had an accident. Never been to the dentist? No school records. I'd never even set foot inside of school. Oh, wow. bank any savings account? No. You can't get a bank account without a social.

What about immunizations? My dad was super against all that. One of the court clerks asked if she had ever been baptized because the certificate that you get when you're baptized in a lot of churches can work as one of the three pieces of evidence. All right. Okay. But it turns out the baptismal record didn't have her birthday on it,

so it didn't count. Oh. Did you ever go to the library and get a library card? Nope. You can't get a library card without an ID. Did you ever get an email addressed to your name at your parents' house? Yes, but it was all, you know, handwritten stuff, which doesn't count. So you have to go to the judge and say what? What do you say to the judge? Well, the judge won't listen. He just said, we're not going to hear the case because you don't have enough for me to even consider.

Because you have to have some kind of records. You don't have enough proof. So you're sitting there at a table and there's a lawyer sitting there opposite you and you saying so, so I know I was born. I believe that I am this age. I was born in my house at such and such an address. Now what do we do? And he looks at you and says or she looks at you and says. I've never seen this before. She's seen people undocumented,

but not someone born in this country invisible to the state and the federal government. Wait, but if you're born in America, you're not automatically a citizen. So shouldn't that just? I mean, but it's not like when you're born, there's like this halo floating, over your house, just letting everyone know, you have to prove it. Yeah. Well, then couldn't she get an immigration attorney to help? Well, no, not really, because when an immigrant comes here from another country, they have this country of origin. And for faith, in the eyes of the government, she has no country

of origin. They just think of her as being from nowhere. Wow. So I was in just like, I was stuck. That's weird. We called everyone, and we could not get help. And we could get like a little bit of a lead, like maybe this will work. And we'd go up and we'd talk to somebody or we'd fill out a paper, we'd mail something yet, or we'd call somebody or something, and just like get rejected every time. You know, it just looked hopeless. It just made me feel like, this is never going to happen, you know. It got to the point where when she was at parties or just talking to people about her situation, they would say, oh, what do you do? And I say, oh, I don't exist. And it would kind of start this, like, weird conversation, and it would actually start a lot of conversations for other

people and it would kind of help me to like navigate stuff and so it actually kind of helped me figure how to socialize it's just this funny little thing she could say but when she was alone it wasn't funny at all i went through a really dark time during that i went through a lot of depression how did your depression manifest in you what what happened to you um i was not self-harmful but i was having a lot of suicidal thoughts my family doesn't know most of my friends don't even know. It's just felt like I was just floating in, like, in the middle of just sea of just so much stuff.

You know, I didn't know who I was. I kind of feel like I didn't really exist at all. We're going to take a quick break, and we'll be right back. Hello, this is Ricardo from beautiful Monroe, New York. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Hey, I'm Chad I boomrod.

I'm Robert Krollwitch. This is Radio Lab, and today, The story of a woman who became famous for being infamously invisible. So, she decided that the only solution was... My name is Alicia Faith Penangenton, and I'm a U.S. citizen by birth. To make this video. I was born at home, and my parents neglected to file a birth certificate or birth record of any kind. She just figured...

I was homeschooled my entire life, so I have no school records. Maybe there's somebody out there that has, you know, done this before. So I was like, well, give it a shot. I want to travel. I want to get an education. I want to just be a functioning American. But I can't until I can prove citizenship. If you've been through a similar situation or know anyone who can help, please contact me. She put it up on YouTube and then that was it.

I didn't expect anyone to watch it. But... My phone was just like notification after notification. It was like dinging and dinging and dinging. In the first week, I had over 1.3 million views. I hadn't even like been on YouTube before that, let alone like posted a video. So it was crazy. It went up on Reddit, Twitter.

I remember singing on Yahoo. On the front of Snapchat Daily. Oh my gosh. People just couldn't believe it. They were like, can this seriously happen? It just took off. And then she just starts getting all these emails. It was insane. I was getting literally two emails every single second. That's not an exaggeration.

I couldn't keep up with it. Like I could not read all of them. Coming from like Germany and Israel. Africa. Australia. India. Like it wouldn't worldwide. And what were people saying? What did they email you about? Oh, all kinds like. I was not only touched by your screen presence, but I'm also very infuriated and frustrated by the circumstances of your dilemma. I actually sat down with Faith while she read through a bunch of these emails. Hello, I'm very intrigued by your story. I'm currently 23 years old. Some of them from homeschoolers. Hello, Alicia. My name is Jose. Some from the children of immigrants who felt like a sense of solidarity.

I commend you for reaching out to the Internet. But a lot of it was... And I pray that you were able to get the documents you need. Just a lot of ton of encouragement saying, I don't know how to help you, but I just want you to know. I'm rooting for you. Like, don't give up. What did it feel like to have eyes on you in that way?

It was really empowering. Like, I didn't... It wasn't very confident in who I was. So just to have so many people be like, were behind you. Yeah. I don't know. It felt really good to be recognized a little bit.

But at the same time, it kind of made her more famously that woman who doesn't exist, the girl with no identity. And it didn't even solve her problem because when people did offer advice, it didn't really help. Start working on not paying tax. They'll come to you. I got people who just had, you know, dumb ideas of what to do. Alicia, if I knew you, I'd love to marry you so you can gain citizenship. Many of them were marriage proposals. I got a lot of proposals.

Actually. I'll get you pregnant if that will help. Oh, my. Some of them not so subtle. Those are just like delete. I'm like, nope. And also inside of those emails and comments, there was a conversation about whether what her parents did was right.

This one is from like the opposite perspective, it says, her parents didn't, quote, neglect anything. They stood on and exercised their rights and wisely so. What they did was in her best interest. She just doesn't understand it because, she is young and she has led a protective life. A lot of these folks felt like Faith was blowing this gift that her parents had given her. From my perspective, if you take some of these documents as they exist, they've got hooks in them.

This is Alfred Addisk, who blogs about sovereignty and sovereign citizens. First off, just to give you a little bit of evidence that maybe I'm not crazy, there's a case called Chisholm versus Georgia. from 1793. They're talking about European jurisprudence, the distinction between the prince and the subject. And the distinction is that the prince gets his rights from God. That's when they say the king is anointed. That's exactly right.

In a coronation ceremony, but they go on and they say no such ideas obtain here, meaning within the United States of America, at the revolution, the sovereignty devolved on the people, and they are the true sovereigns. And the word sovereigns is plural. I think we all know. You're a sovereign.

I'm a sovereign. Alexander is a sovereign. How do you deal with the opening phrase in the Constitution, which is plural? We and people, not I the person one by one, but we the people. When it says we the people,

it means we the sovereigns. Sovereigns are not a collective. Which I think many people would argue. I understand that. But if you are... We ended up getting into this. a little tussle over the roles of government. It's not invisibility.

What happens if you do and the Constitution, but eventually we got back to faith. Once you have been recognized as a sovereign, how do you avoid, it's like getting rid of, I'm just going to, I want, judge, I don't want blue eyes anymore. But part of you must, part of you must go out and feel a little sorry for her, right? Like, she's got, she has a, she has a, a will to become something other than. She has a will to become a subject. A subject, yes. But I don't hear you condemning her. He doesn't want to be free.

Oh, you are condemning her then a little bit. No, I'm saying she's making a choice. There's proviso in the Bible where people in the Old Testament, if you wanted to remain, you could volunteer to be a slave for some guy. Some people don't want to be sovereigns. It's not an easy... No, they just want a job and they want to travel and they want to work for a living. Yeah, that's exactly right.

But there are consequences for her abandoning. her status as a free woman. Well, here's the weird irony. Because she has no birth certificate, because she has no passport, the state of Texas and the government of the United States say, well, we can't figure out how to make you visible. Yeah, it's probably true. They may not be able to. But then, FACE grandmother lives in my district in Sun City, and she...

The government stepped in. My grandma was able to get in touch with Marsha Farnie. Marcia Farnie, State Representative. I have House District 20. She's a Republican member of the Texas House of Representatives. We would get together I do with my staff and say, what are the calls we've had come in this week? And this one really caught our attention. So what she heard about it, she said, we need to do something about this.

And she did. This bill is an attempt to get a birth certificate for those. Around a month after face video went viral, Marsha Farney put together a bill and brought it before the House of Representatives in Austin. I know the committee already read about this bill and they are keenly aware. So the bill does a couple of things. It makes the process logistically easier. We expanded where someone could apply for a delayed birth certificate. But it also outlined punishments for the parents. So in the case of faith, right, if she asks her parents for documentation and they refuse. Then that's punishable up to a year in jail and up to $4,000 of a fine or a combination of both.

Really? Yeah. Mr. Chairman, I know there are four witnesses here who want to testify on this bill. And they held this hearing to kind of weigh the various sides. Hi, I'm Alicia Southworth, live in Georgetown, Texas. And so Faith and her aunt and her grandma all went to testify. Faith is my granddaughter and my namesake. I was in the room the day she was born.

Unfortunately, that is not a... Her grandma filled in the state reps on what they've been doing the last six months. We went to the DPS to get her a driver's license, and they're... said no. They said go to the Social Security people. Social Security people said no. Go to the voter registration people. All the meetings and dead ends and rejections. No, go to the DPS. We were stuck in a do loop. Well, I wasn't going to quit there. For goodness sake, she's a Texan. So Marcia Farnie has offered us our only hope we have had since this started. I urge you to pass this bill, take faith out of limbo and give her the life she desires.

My view was just like we would not allow a parent to physically handicap a child. We should not allow a parent to handicap a child where they can't operate and function in society. She is truly, although you've seen her standing here, a non-person. She could walk off the face of the earth and legally nobody would know she was gone. I think the bill's a little misguided. That's James Pennington, face dad. He came out to the hearing and ended up on the Fox 7 newscast, and unfortunately, this is the only bit of tape we have of him. I think it provides some pretty draconian penalties for a process that's already there.

There are six other children. Does seem a little, I think I don't disagree with that. I mean, does the state of Texas want to start putting parents in jail? Well, the bill gives the judge some leeway based on what the circumstances are for the parents. But we felt there was a need for some teeth to this bill. And it turns out that the Texas State House and State Senate agreed. So we were able to get it through the House and the Senate. The bill ended up passing.

Republicans voted for it. Democrats voted for it. There was actually only one no vote. But the next time Marsha Farney was up for re-election, she actually lost in the primaries. And according to the Texas Observer, who actually did a really nice podcast of Face Story, there's this lobbying group called the Texas Homeschool Coalition Coalition who donated a bunch of money to Farney's primary. marry opponent. Parental revenge, I guess.

Okay. But then what, so where does that leave faith, though? Well, because of the bill, Faith was able to take her case to a different court, a higher court. And it seems like the bill allowed the judge to consider different kinds of evidence. So in the end, Faith was able to use an old orthodontist record and a piece of paper from her uncle, a doctor who had treated her toe back when she was a kid. And in just a couple weeks. This is the birth certificate.

Sometimes I just take it out and look at it, sometimes randomly. I know it's like it's so dumb. It's like it's your birth certificate. Every person has one. But I'm like, I have one too. Can you read it to me a little bit? Like what information is on here? It has my name at the top and it has like my description, my sex, where I was born.

The county. What county does it say you're born in Harris County? I was born in Houston. I'm hoping that the physical papers can, like, mirror the emotional thing that she's going through. Because I feel like it's like as she's getting the papers, she's appearing. So that by the time she gets that last one, she will know who she is. And then she will be that person, whoever that is. She's working so hard for it.

I'm hoping that just that will have developed in her something, that she feels like it's more than a piece of paper, you know? Yeah. I'm hoping. So now Faith, she was actually able to get a driver's license, but she still doesn't have her social security number, which means she can't get a real job. She can't open up a bank account. She still really...

She can vote yet, right? She can vote, but she can't get health insurance. She might not be able to go to college. So I don't know what's going to happen to her. I remember asking her this question. Like, when this is all over, do you know who you're going to be? You know, because now this is who you are.

You're the girl with no identity. And she was a little concerned that she wouldn't know who she was going to be. If your aunt asked you that same question again, like, who do you think you are now? Who do you think you are? No. How would you answer that now?

I don't know. Like, I just feel like me. Like, I'm just, Faith? Huge thanks to reporter and producer Alexander Young. This piece was also produced by Brenna Farrell and Andy Mills. And we had a lot of help from a lot of Texans, I should say. I think they're mostly Texans.

Savannah Escobar, Rachel Coleman. David Glenn, Chris Van Dusen. Zane Allegra, Russell Whalen, Liberty consultant Nick Reed. The group homeschool alumni reaching out. And Lake Travis Zipline Adventure Company. Speaking of that last one, I should say when I went to go visit Faith, in Austin. She's got green hair now. She's got a nose ring and a tattoo. She goes home from time to time and she actually visited with her mom on Mother's Day. But when I was there, she wanted to do

something with me that she'd never done before. I was so excited. So we decided to go ziplining. Zip in six. And this one just happened to be called the leap of faith. Hey, this is Chad. One last thing before we close. I wanted to let you know that this fall I'm actually going to be doing something that I haven't done in the 14 years that I have been working on Radio Lab. I'm going to take a little time off. So you will not hear me producing or hosting this podcast through the fall. I will be back early January. And, you know, the reason is very simply that, you know, in creating this show and then building it up,

and then going on four live tours and then most recently creating the spinoff, our first spinoff more perfect. I just need, I mean, it's all been incredible, but I just need a moment to catch my breath and to reacquaint myself with my children. So I'm going to be doing that. But the great thing is that, you know,

as much as Radio Lab is this thing that I started with Robert and with Ellen, it's now, as you know, home to a hugely talented, amazing group of people. So you'll be hearing more of them. I mean, Robert, my partner, and crime will be holding it down, but you'll be hearing a lot more of Molly Webster. Soren and Lattif and Simon and the whole crew will be doing stories.

And I happen to know there's some pretty amazing stuff coming down the pike. And I, for one, am really excited to be able to listen to it from the outside for the first time. So, yeah, I'll be making a few appearances here and there. So if you find yourself in like Missoula, Montana or Sydney or Melbourne, Australia, come say hey. Otherwise, I will see you in the new year. You have two new messages. Hi, this is Faith Payton.

I'm supposed to read some credit. Hi, this is Jenny. I'm not sure if I am supposed to leave a message with the credit zone or not. Anyway, Radio Lab is produced by Dad Abomrod. Dylan Keith is our director of science. Thorne Wheeler is senior editor. Jane, York is our senior producer. Our staff includes Simon Adler.

Brenna Farrell, David Gebel, Matt Kilty, Robert Kruelwich, Annie McGowan, Andy Milne, Latee Nasser, Melissa O'Donnell, Kelsey Padgett, Arian Wack, and Molly Webster. With help from Alexander Lee Young, Jackson Roach, Encharo Sinha. Our fact checkers are Eva Dasher and Michelle Harris. End of message.