Radiolab - The Good Samaritan

Episode Date: March 31, 2023

Tuesday afternoon, summer of 2017: Scotty Hatton and Scottie Wightman made a decision to help someone in need and both paid a price for their actions that day — actions that have led to a legal, moral, and scientific puzzle about how we balance accountability and forgiveness.  In this 2019 episode, we go to Bath County, Kentucky, where, as one health official put it, opioids have created “a hole the size of Kentucky.” We talk to the people on all sides of this story about stemming the tide of overdoses. We wrestle with the science of poison and fear, and we try to figure out whether and when the drive to protect and help those around us should rise above the law. Special thanks to Earl Willis, Bobby Ratliff, Ronnie Goldie, Megan Fisher, Alan Caudill, Nick Jones, Dan Wermerling, Terry Bunn, Robin Thompson and the staff at KIPRC, Charles Landon, Charles P Gore, Jim McCarthy, Ann Marie Farina, Dr. Jeremy Faust and Dr. Ed Boyer, Justin Brower, Kathy Robinson, Zoe Renfro, John Bucknell, Chris Moraff, Jeremiah Laster, Tommy Kane, Jim McCarthy, Sarah Wakeman, and Al Tompkins. CDC recommendations on helping people who overdose: https://www.cdc.gov/drugoverdose/pdf/patients/Preventing-an-Opioid-Overdose-Tip-Card-a.pdf Find out where to get naloxone: https://prevent-protect.org/. It is also now available over-the-counter. (https://zpr.io/SMX9yYDUta7a).  EPISODE CREDITS: Reported by - Peter Andrey Smith with Matt KieltyProduced by - Matt Kielty Our newsletter comes out every Wednesday. It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)! Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today. Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [e-mail] Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Before we start, the following story contains a moment or two that's pretty intense and may not be suitable for young kids. Radio Lab. Radio. From WNYC. WNYC. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. From WNYC.

WNYC. WNYC. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio.

Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. Radio. 8, 2017. This is a call from Bath County, Eastern Kentucky. 13, 50, 1, and 26 seconds. It's a call from its batch to...

Back in quarantine, it's four years, your spot. The Bath County EMS station. These are the people that are dispatched to medical emergencies. Last time, remember, it was like a water tool hot in the afternoon, something like that. Toans went off for a unresponsive mail. All right, so that's Scotty Weiman. Yep. Other voices, JFO.

Repartners. In the MS service in Beth County Kentucky. Anyway, call comes in. First one of the day. Scotty and J hop in their ambulance, and they rush over to the department complex. They've been there before. It's this sort of squad two story building.

Like a strip mall almost, we'll get there, jump out, put the gloves on, enter this small apartment. And immediately when they come in, off to the left is the living room. Law force, miss, sir. The chief of police was there talking to the two people that were alert in the house, a woman and a guy who were sitting on a couch. And then if you look talking to the two people that were alert in the house. A woman and a guy who were sitting on a couch.

And then if you look immediately to the right, it's just like the kitchen is there. And that's where Scottie and J.C. Why don't he's back? He's armed to the side. A guy in his mid-50s. Completely unresponsive. He was laying in water about three inches deep, where I guess somebody in the house had taken the sprayer from the kitchen sink and had sprayed him down trying to revive the guy bring him back to life and it doesn't happen that way so James got he ended

the kitchen stand over this guy he hadn't started turning blue yet so I checked and make sure he was breathing and he was but barely he's taking these really low shallow breaths and then I pulled his eyelids back and checked his pupils. They're tiny pin points. He was overdose. Pretty indicative of opiates. So I was okay. So Jay grabs his medic kit.

He goes into his bag and he pulls out this nasal spray. It's a drug called Naloxone. It's also commonly referred to as Narcan. And it's a drug that's known as being this Lazarus drug. Yeah, because it immediately throws an opiate overdose into reverse and brings people back from the brink of death. So Jay crouches over this guy, and he takes this nasal spray, sticks it up one of the

guys nostrils, sprays it, takes it out. Wait to be, does the same thing to the other nostril. Back wake. Within seconds. The guy opened his eyes. Talk what's going on? I grabbed a towel and start drying him off. And then I pushed him up so I could sit him up.

Got him up. Got him onto the stretcher. We loaded in the truck. Went take off to site Claire hospital. Scottie's up front. He's driving the ambulance. Jay's in the bag with the patient. Everything was good with him.

Everything was routine. When all of a sudden, Scotty hollered through the window. He yelled at me. I don't feel right. I can remember a weird taste coming into my mouth and a real odd smell hitting my nose. What are you teasing? I can't describe it. It was just, it was like chewing on steel.

Go ahead. Scotty Wally's driving, he gets on the radio. He's a human too. Hardin at the next county over, saying hey, I need help. I've got a light feeling, a, rain freeze, uh, temperature. I need you to send me an ambulance. Only he's been on exit ramp of the 137. I just haven't made that center place.

Can't fly. Might it to the bottom of the ramp? Let's truck in park. Jay jumped out of the back and ran up to the front. Went to the passenger side. Got Scottie. He was already slumped over. Unresponsive. It was that front. Went to the passenger side. Got Scottie. He was already slumped over. Unresponsive.

It was that quick. Like he was out. Cold. Not waking up, anything? No, no, he's not responding at all. So what's happening? Well, this is like, this is the thing that, I don't know, was so shocking to me,

is that when Jay then checked out Scottie. He had pinpoint pupils, snoring respirations. He seemed to have the exact same symptoms as the patient in the back of the ambulance who had overdosed. Wait, what? The exact same symptoms? Yeah, that's what it looked like to Jay.

Well, how can, how does that even happen? Well, so, so Jay explained it to us like, they, he says, if you wind back, they had gone into this apartment to treat this guy who was on the kitchen floor. I was wet. And he said he believes that when they were helping him up. Scotty had rubbed against his skin to skin contact with his forearm.

And J.C.C.D. believes that what likely happened in that moment is that whatever drug this guy had taken had now gotten on to Scottie's arm, absorbed through his skin into his system, and then like 15 minutes later, had caused Scottie to pass out. Wow, that's really strange. Yeah, it seems like a really unusual thing to happen. But the thing is, I guess what's even weirder

is that this wasn't the first time I'd heard this story. Right, like Peter's been following this for a while. So yeah, I've been keeping a list of these types of incidents and what I found is this wasn't an isolated incident. These types of things are happening. A lot. And now at 6 a.m. T's in danger. There have been cases reported in North Carolina, Florida. We are a police officer nearly dying. Rural, high-o, rural, Pennsylvania.

From an accidental drug overdose. West Virginia. Three police officers in Southeast Wisconsin. Texas, California. Rush to the hospital. Two EMTs. Massachusetts. We're taken to the hospital.

I'm breaking news and provenance. Vermont, New Hampshire. Two police officers are hospitalized. Nebraska. Three EMTs in an officer went to the hospital. It says deputy went to the hospital overnight. The officer was responding to an overdose. There's been over 100 reported incidents all over the country. So I mean, I've been reporting on opioids

for a number of years. And I guess as I was watching these kinds of incidents occur, I kind of felt like I was watching a contagion, like unfold in real time. I mean, I guess when I was reading all these stories, I was just thinking like, what is going on here? Like what's happening? Like, what's happening? I'm Jed Abumrod.

I'm Robert Kroelich. This is Radio Lab. Today, we have a story about what happened that day in that apartment, in that ambulance in Kentucky. Definitely kind of a mystery story. But at its core, it's really a story about wanting to do good, choosing to do good, and then having to suddenly bear the cost of doing good.

And you're good. Story comes to us from Peter Smith, freelance journalist, and it also was co-reported by... Peter! I produce your Macculti! Hey everybody! Okay, so...

So... Kentucky. Kentucky. Kentucky. So we wanted to talk to Scotty and his partner Jay about what happened that day. And about what's been happening. So we flew into Lexington. We drove about an hour east.

And it was some nice rolling bluegrass hills. Yeah, a lot of green. And we drove to this tiny little city called Owingsville. And we're at the Bath County Emergency Medical Services. Where the Bath County EMS is. White building, linoleum, siding, big garage doors like you'd see at like an auto shop, a couple big white Bath County EMS ambulances. So there's a washer dryer, a ash tray on top of it. And attached to the garage is a one-story house, basically.

So we essentially just showed up at this place to introduce ourselves and say, hey, yeah, go ahead and sit there. Thank you, ladies. There were a few people inside Gary, the director of the station was there. Yeah, and you're serving the whole county. Yeah, I think it's 284 square miles, I think, as how big our county is.

You know about how many people that is? Uh, a little over 12,000 now, I believe. And we're covering that out of one station. Feels like there's beds in back. Yeah, beds in the back. Y'all end up just kind of like living here? Yeah, it's basically like an apartment. There's a kitchen, we were in the living room

with Gary sitting on a couch. There's these big lazy boys, a ginormous TV. Billy Bob Thoramazon. He's a mean dude. In the show? No, he's just a mean dude in real life. Remember that? We went to William Nelson concert and his band opened

for William Nelson and somebody in the audience heckled him. And he just about came off the stage after him. And he called him everything with a soul machine and a milk cow. I mean, he made up cuss words. Yeah, he's a wiry little fella. So we were kind of just hanging around with Gary.

It was probably like 15 minutes and then... There's Scotty. Scotty walked in. That's Patre Smith. How are you doing? Matt, guilty. How you got to do it? This is the EMT who overdosed.

Yeah, Scotty's the guy that's supposedly overdosed. He's in his 50s, white white hair tall. Got bright blue eyes Right in the New York Times there was one line in the story about three EMS personnel. I don't know if that's the truth to Yeah, and so then I thought there was something unusual about that, and I was curious to hear the real story. You were just a few months and? Yeah, no rush. There's no rush that's out and then discuss lanes.

All right. So eventually it was just the three of us in this living room. So table or, I was thinking, I I mean maybe I should preface this by saying that you can't really understand this story unless you understand a little bit about what EMS personnel do. I talked to some other EMTs that told me that everybody has their why. Everybody has this thing they say. It's like this is the reason I got into this line of business. I would say like a very

small percentage like don't have second or third jobs, like they don't make a lot of money. So everybody has this why. Yeah, maybe you can just like tell it. I think. And so I asked Scotty what his why was, and he told me this story. And I think it's a really incredible story that not only explains why he does what he does, but it also explains like why he holds on to certain things. So in September of 1999 I was involved in an accident on the pencil by the term pike. So it was early in the morning. It was raining. Yeah it was during hurricane Floyd. He was out there for work. Cross country trucking. Kind of a rigory traffic Shannon. It was a freight liner and I was pulling a flatbed

triler with load pipe on it. So he's barely down the turn pike with this heavy load of steel on the back. And with the weather, like visibility starts to get bad. Slowed my speed way down, probably running in approximately 55 mile an hour. And he comes through this construction site and something happened in the front end of the truck. Here to pop.

The front tire had blown out and I basically became a passenger at that point there was no control. His 18-million was like cringing out of control down the turnpaking it is like skidding across the wet pavement. And the truck lunged to the right. There was a concrete wall there that had guard rail attached to it. It nosed in to the guard rail. He came flying back across both lanes, back toward the center of the fighter and the truck hit it, plowed through the center divider.

And began to like roll over. And came down and struck a vehicle that was traveling the other direction. Scottie says he doesn't remember much of what happened next, other than his truck finally coming to a stop. After that, the next day I remember was standing on the frame with the truck, watching diesel fuel run underneath of me, and I could hear the truck burning. Somehow, he managed to get out of the cab,

and he's standing on this tail of the cab, and the truck is on fire. And like while he's standing there, like other people who are driving down the highway have stopped and they've started to yell at him. Screamin' at me to get away from the truck. I got off the truck and I looked up the road and I saw the other vehicle and I knew then

that it wasn't good. What did it look like? It was a very destroyed vehicle. What happened next? There was a lady had a minivan. I have no idea where she came from. She opened the side door on her minivan and had me set in the floorboard until the ambulance got there.

I remember looking down at my left hand and the back of my left hand all the skin was probably hanging down 8, 10, 12 inches where it had melted the skin. Like your skin's just dangling off your body? Yeah. I can remember when the ambulance getting there and there was a female paramedic. And when she walked up and looked at me, I remember her going, oh my God, and I was like, good, is it? And she said, no.

She didn't lie to me. She said, no, it's not good. You got rushed to a hospital. It five broken ribs, massive skin burns. I do remember them telling me, you're gonna lose your left hand. And I told him, that's not an option option I'm left handed. Sir just immediately started doing skin grafts. Took skin off my legs and put on my arms and my back. As you

can see I've still got my left hand. Still left handed. I'm still left handed. And when you said it was a couple days after the accident when they told you about the other car. Yeah. How did that conversation unfold? It was an attorney that was for the representative of the trucking company that I was driving for. It was the one that actually told me about the fatalities that had been involved with the accident. That was how I found out. Do you remember what exactly? I just remember him walking into the hospital room and he's like, hi, my name is.

Hi, I'm sorry. Yeah, and my name's So-and-So, and I'm with, I'm an attorney with representing the company that you drive for. And we don't know if you've been informed of this or not, but there was three fatalities involved and I hadn't been informed, but guess I have been now. When we started into court proceedings, that was when I found out names and where they were from. Where from Connecticut. They had been on vacation in North Carolina. The hurricane coming in they were evacuated out of North Carolina so they had decided that they were going to travel up into Pennsylvania and try to find a place to

finish their vacation in Pennsylvania. And that's what puts them there. If I'd traveled two miles an hour faster or two miles an hour slower. We wouldn't have been at the same place at the same time. Scotty eventually went back to Longhall trucking, but he says that he kept thinking about that day, about that accident, the people who were killed. Never forgot, I still haven't forgotten. But the other thing that really struck him about that day was that everybody who showed

up to that scene, the fire department, the EMS, everybody there was volunteer. And that's something he couldn't really shake. That people volunteered to come to me and they didn't know who I was. They didn't care who I was. They didn't pass judgment on me that yeah I was in a horrific accident and I might have been been the cause of that accident. They didn't care. They viewed me as someone that needed help. And that was all they viewed me as. Scottie said the more he thought about it, the more he felt like he had this sort of dead to pay back for the lives that were lost that day. For the ones that he extinguished.

And the way that he's going to do that is become a volunteer. He's going to become one of these people. Who? Health those in need. That comes to your aid no matter what. And as I say, you know, the rest is history, you're around one. The M.T. So we spent a few days with Scotty following him around on some of his runs. And as an EMT, his main responsibility is to drive the ambulance, but also to assist his partner. Hello.

Who's often Jay? And out in rural Kentucky, they get all sorts of calls. Hi. We're here, honey. They just want to look at you. It's OK. You're OK. How long has he been acting like that, huh?

Six months, my. OK. Like a three-year-old who's having trouble breathing. Just breathe. It's okay. You're okay. How long has he been acting like that? Six, five, nine, okay. Like a three year old who's having trouble breathing. Just breathe. It's okay. Look at me. It's okay. Come on, let's go.

Come on, let's go. I have a lot of calls from nursing homes. Deep breath. It's not heard. Got him on six on time. Where a call can be for something that feels like so small, like a cough or a low blood sugar. Ready to go. A portable over-to-mind. be for something that feels like so small, like a cough or low blood sugar. One night, a night, a call, older woman, a porch.

They help pick up an elderly woman. Oh, good job. Good job. Sometimes they just get called to give people their meds. You gonna feel big poke, okay? Count of three, here we go. One, two, three, big poke. These are like kind of like the everyday innocuous calls.

And then of course like there are overdoses. By the way, I'm a, I'm Matt. I'm Earl. Earl. Master Machi. Peter. I'm Earl. Because we were like these out of town reporters, everybody kept saying that we should go down to the old jail.

Peter the jailer? Yeah. Yeah. Which is where we met the county jailer, Earl. How's it going, sir? How you doing, bud? I'm Matt. And his friend Mitchell. Nice to meet you.

How are you? And so Earl let us into the jail. It's abandoned now. Paint peeling off the walls. He walked us into this front room. Let's see. How much do I see more of the jail? It's full of weed whackers, lawn mowers.

Earl oversees the work release program So the people that are in jail are sort of on this temporary work release program They like do lawn maintenance along the highway Where'd they got him? Oh, it's over there actually yeah, well we're in the corner and then Earl Earl grabbed this red bucket Which he set down. It's like a knee-high bucket Earl grabbed this red bucket, uh, which he set down. It's like a knee-high bucket. You're pretty nasty. Oh my god. That's an issue. What you can say, that's just this year.

That's so many syringes. How many do you think you got in there? I'd say they said that. I was in one of your batch. I'm seeing you, right? Yeah, close to. That was like, oh, last year. Oh, last year. People on work release have been picking these up for like the past year This is just a litter on the highway. Yeah They used to have the kids, you know would clean up like boy scouts and stuff clean up long-robes But it just got too too bad with the needles now. You just can't do it anymore with the way the needles are stuff all Yeah, it's all kinds of murdering if you're following. I've got to pass the envy.

Yeah, or be another bottle full. It's probably 20, 30 in there. Here's another one. We got a problem here. There's no doubt about that. There's definitely a problem with with hair when you... Someone's got it in. Do you have got the stuff in there? I still got the drugs in there.

Blood too. Yeah. Huh. That first year we worked, we really had a dinner. If I was watching them away too before we started saving them. Yeah. Did it surprise you to find this many? Really? Yeah.

Well it just out what the hair when problem just started just like overnight here. I mean it was peels forever. And then, and then this time, it wants, I mean, nobody even ever seen a needle that you mentioned. And then just, I want to stay wherever. When did you start seeing them? About a year ago, when? It's been longer than that.

It's been about two and a half, two and a half years ago. And it just, and once it started, you started finding they were everywhere there. So what do you think when you see all these needles? I just think it's a bad thing. It's just destroying families. And we have somebody down here just all the time.

I mean, it's really bad. Say it. I've had a very good friend that I lost. What was it, Mitchell back last August. I had took him to rehab and he was in there for a couple months and he got out and done good and then that happened to him. And that was sort of the incredible thing. There's nothing for everyone here so have your pick.

Alright, well I'll take a look around. Was that like everybody knew somebody who had been caught up in using opioids. I mean, nice families, somebody in their family, end up on a bad. Like I went to a yard sale because I love yard sales. And family is affected some way. When I told the women who were sitting there on the driveway,

what we were reporting on, they said they had lost neighbors, friends. Well, let's put it like this. In 2000, you know, one day when we were reporting on, they said they had lost neighbors, friends. Well, let's put it like this. In 2000, you know, one day when we were down there, we had to take a lift. No, in 1990, I had a motorcycle accident, which destroyed my left femur. I've got a 12 inch plate, 10 screws, and two pins of home my left femur together. And the driver told us how he'd started using pills? And really came by quite, quite innocently. I talked to a woman who worked at a thrift store

who told me she lost a cousin to an overdose. Actually, Jay told us about a friend of his. He actually relapsed. He was in therapy. His sponsor in Narcaroxanonymous overdosed. And he had nobody to go to, so he relapsed. It was found two days later in his car. So it was pretty bad. And I would assume that the MS, Scotty and Jay would have seen this shift happen.

Yeah, Scotty told us around 2017 overdose calls from one or two a week to five, six, one day. There was 11. And that was just unheard of in this county. It just to have that many overdoses. They told us they would treat the same person like five times over a few months. Like this is just their job. Right. They're there to save people's lives.

But this overdose problem and the sort of like moral calculus that any EMS person makes when they show up to help a person who is so deep, it started to shift when reports started emerging about this new drug. The structure made it so simply coming into contact with a person like just simply touching them could put an EMS worker in danger. Wasn't a lot known about it. We talked to the SkyJace in New York about it. He's the emergency management director for the county. When it first came out, the reports that we were getting was literally airborne. Have you ever seen it?

No. What do you think, like, just hearing about it? I mean, what's going through your mind when you hear about it? War, war, Z. Walking dead. The drug is called fentanyl. What is fentanyl? Like, I know that it's an opioid, but is it like...

So, so fentanyl? Didn't you talk to a guy about this a while back? I did, I talked to this guy, John Cole. Okay. He can tell me again, like, who you are and... Yeah! I'm an emergency physician here at Headup and County Medical Center, which is a level one trauma center in Minneapolis. He's also the director of the Minnesota Poison Control. So fentanyl has been around for decades, and we use it almost every day in my hospital

and some capacity. So fentanyl is an opioid, it's fully synthetic. It's manufactured in the laboratory, and it often comes in powder form, but drug companies reformulated it into all sorts of things like fentanyl lollipops. And these lollipops are given to soldiers on the battlefield. There's also fentanyl patches. And people wear to get fentanyl into their body through their skin. Oh, so you can, you can do fentanyl through the skin.

Yeah. It's an easy way to put something on for people with really bad chronic pain. People with cancer, for instance, use them. It's just this way to put something on for people with really bad chronic pain, people with cancer, for instance, use them. It's just this really, really effective pain killer. Because fentanyl is really, really potent. I mean, a lot of people refer to fentanyl as sort of the third wave of the opioid crisis. Just for context. I mean, what are the first two waves? Uh, yeah. Well, so if you go back to the beginning of the crisis, the first wave was pills. Right.

When early 2000s, drug manufacturers began flooding communities with pharmaceutical grade opioids. Okay. And the second wave was around 2011 when there was a crackdown on pills. And so a lot of people that were using pharmaceuticals began to migrate to heroin. And the Mexican cartels got very good at delivering that heroin. And then, around 2013, the third wave hits. America's worst drug crisis ever.

Drug dealers, people that were selling heroin, start looking to fentanyl. Because fentanyl is so much cheaper to either make or obtain than normal heroin. And most importantly, fentanyl is way more potent. And so basically, to maximize their profit, drug dealers start cutting fentanyl into heroin. The problem is that the people who are using, they really have no idea what they're getting. They think they're just getting heroin.

And certainly by 2014, we started to see patients in our emergency department who were overdosed with what they thought was heroin that probably turned out to be fentanyl. And as more and more people were overdosing, a powerful synthetic opioid. There were all these news stories about this powerful opioid, this fentanyl. Powerful ultra potent synthetic opioid. 30 to 50 times as powerful as heroin itself and there are versions of it where you know the molecules changed a little bit and it makes it more potent and by 2016 and even more dangerous

Drug is now hitting the street. It's called carphenol. It's a new synthetic opioid Usually used to tranquilize an elephant now this deadly drug is popping up in our backyards and Now this deadly drug is popping up in our backyard. And carphenol is extremely potent. The same size as just seven grains of salt could kill you. John says it was right around this time, 2016. There started to be reports of... I fall back, words, law enforcement. I'm trying to hold on to anything I can grasp.

Emergency medical services. My face started burning. And even nurses and hospitals. I broke out in a sweat. Describing getting ill when they were exposed to powder that turned out later to be fentanyl or some other type of fentanyl. How did you first hear about it? How did I hear about it? You guys, the media.

Oh, I forget, I'm a representative of the media. Scottie City actually first heard about Carfellin, good morning America. Started reading articles on it. Jay saw other people in EMS tweeting about it. You know what is the struggle, what is going on? But that's in the big city, it's not gonna happen here. And then one of our local law enforcement

officers, Bud Lions. So you'd read about fentanyl. I mean, I've read about it, but I didn't think you would come to a small city like this. That's Bud Lions. He's a police officer. He's a canine officer here. What's what happened?

Uh, basically I was dispatched to the funeral home. So it was the summer of 2017 Bud got called out to the parking lot to the funeral home. So it was the summer of 2017, Bud got called out to the parking lot of the funeral home. A female had passed out in her car. When I got on scene, Bokeh her up, got her out of the vehicle. She noticed she had some brown stuff on her face. Like a powder substance around her nostrils.

He searched the car and took an evidence of $1,000 in cash and several little baggies of brown powder substance Nostrils he searched the car and took an evidence of thousand dollars in cash and Several little baggies of brown powder subs since it turned out to be heroin and that same night as he was like back in the evidence room going through Through the money. I didn't have no gloves on lost counting the money started feeling funny Started feeling real dizzy couldn't think straight drop the money and drove his cruiser up here into the parking lot of the EMS station. And when he pulled in, he went down. A couple of EMS were there, gave him this, this Lazarus drug, Narcan. Rush me to the hospital. Had that ever happened, even before?

No. It's the first time it's ever happened. And, you know, just that little touch basically almost killed me. Just a grain of fentanyl got on his skin and he's saying that's all it took. Yeah, that was the story that was starting to emerge really across the country, that like a tiny grain, if you came into contact with a tiny grain of the shrug, it could take you down. So as soon as that happened, Scotty, we made it a pact between us to carry extra

Narcan in the truck for us in case we ever got exposed. Because I knew it was here in the county and in the city. And then about a month after that, sure enough, chewing on steel that's trucking park. My partner got exposed. I can remember coming to and being in another ambulance. Jade, given Scott either Narcan, did stashed away. His dose of Narcan and mine because he wouldn't wake up after the first dose. They got into the hospital.

Scott he was kept under evaluation for about four hours. And then eventually discharged. The next day it was like that was when it hit. I owned the fact of you know what almost'd done my job. And that's essentially when what began as a call for help became a crime scene. What do you mean? I will tell you in a minute. After the break.

Chad. Robert radio lab. Back to Peter and Matt in Kentucky. I had a hard time choosing the show years back. I'm free to come here and lost. Something that I kept thinking about when we were down there in Kentucky driving around was that there is no duty to render eight. Even though there are some exceptions and statutes in some states, like for the most part there's just no obligation. We live in a society where you like do not, you can sort of watch a person drown and you won't be held You can do that. And that's legal.

I just kept thinking about that. We're all young, going to the East Isle of Eastern Kentucky. We've mostly just been here. So when we were down there with Earl the Jailer. Yeah, and the Jail, the old, back county jail. We had just seen the needles and we were coming out to the parking lot. So I go to West Cotsman. And we had spent probably like two or three days trying to find the people who were actually in the apartment, like the person who overdosed and the other two people

who we learned lived in that apartment. I had a phone number, but nobody was picking up. But we're with Errol. And it's just to ask him if he knew the sky, Scotty Hatton. Scotty, why? Why Hatton? This is a different Scotty. This is a different Scotty. Right, because Scotty Whiteman's the EMT who responded to the call had this seemingly like overdose exposure. Scotty Hatton lived in the apartment.

Yeah, he was there the day that Scotty and Jay showed up. Yeah, I know him. What do y'all want to talk to you, Mark? Yeah, we just, I mean, we got the Scotty Whiteman started and we were just curious if... What do you want to talk to you? Yeah, we just when we got the Scotty Whiteman started the story and we were just curious if what do you want to talk to me about what? What went on that night or get his side of the story? I know that I don't think that he could right now because he is casing final I just about guaranteed you won't but then he was like I can tell you where he is though Because it turns out that Scotty hadn't had on an ankle monitor

and Earl, you know, he's the jailer, so he just like pulls up his phone and looks up Scotty's GPS location. Yeah, and so the little dot for the GPS showed exactly where he was at this old cemetery. That graveyard's what, man. And Earl said like we could go down there and like maybe he would talk to us So we get there pretty big and sprawling cemetery that was like 25 minutes out of town some like that. Yeah lots of big trees Cicadas. Anyway, Scotty was actually out on this riding lawnmower and

We were standing there talking to a supervisor and Scotty himself like gets off the lawnmower comes over to us. What do you look like? Sunk and eyes, big eyes. Pretty skinny guy. He's wearing like a blue, Duke ball cap, blue jeans. So Scotty came over, his supervisors went on the lawnmower and started riding around and Scotty immediately started talking. It seemed like he wanted to tell his side of the story. and Scotty immediately started talking. I'm actually about to talk to him. It seemed like he wanted to tell his side of the story.

He said he got sick, almost no line. It's like, sometimes he can take one to four hours. And he was standing on this big oak tree, kind of like on a steep slope. Sorry, mind. You mind, I just, I've missed it that other front of that. You were saying that you think it's doubtful I think it's very doubtful and he immediately started telling us that he was like suspicious of Scotty Whiteman's story

It's whole like overdose by touch thing. I mean because He only touched my other co-authentic, you know, and and I had washed him off You know, I didn't know you're not supposed to wash him when it's overdose enough, but I did and washed him off. I didn't know you're not supposed to wash him when it's over dusting off, but I did. And this guy's trying to say he got, you know, got affected by car fencing all. They didn't even find any drugs on the scene. They found a very little paraphernalia, but I know I'm done. It's just one of those things. I'm going to church now. As soon as I get this tank I'm on a ruff. I'm gonna get saved. I can't get saved and with with the ankle monitor, you can't submerge it. Where are you going to get baptized?

I got a Freedom Church in the Mount Sterling, probably going to ask them, being from a bunch of people and making kind of nervous. We decided meet up with them later because of the lawn mower, or cicadas. So we went to his aunt's house. He was living there. He got an evicted from his apartment after the OD. Well, I'm going. What are you doing? I'm going to say Ruby, aren't you? Yeah.

It's nice to meet you guys. Nice to meet you too. Thanks again. I'll leave you in my room. She really wants a good spot. You just want to help me? I'll come. Okay. So apparently he's got his home, she really wants a good fight. She just wants to help you. So apparently Scotty's girlfriend, Jessica,

she was the other person in the apartment for this overdose. She was also now living with Scotty at his aunts, but she didn't want to talk to us. So then the three of us sat down on the couch in the living room and Scotty just started telling us about his own story. And I think his story definitely is a very, like, sort of, common trajectory. Wait, like, where did you grow up? Was it around here? Yeah, I grew up in Bath County. I've been here my whole life pretty much.

So, Scotty grew up in government housing in a small apartment with his sister, his mom. She had another husband by then, not my dad, he's my stepdad. His stepdad is a Skyrim Ricky. Who figures pretty prominently in the story? He drank a lot, wasn't that good at all at good home. Then I was like 15, 16, I moved on to my grandma, lived my dad my grandma, I was in the sports, I made decent grades.

Now I don't even hurl, I'll see my dad. He caught him a case, I guess, he's got several charges pending So when was the first time you you used? First time I ever took more callics. I was 19. Courtney Scottie. What happened was he got kidney stones Never had a pain worse than that. I hurt somebody I was crying. He mentioned it to his dad He had a motorcycle wreck kind of messed him up You know, he just, you know, said,

here, you know, you can take one of my pain pills. It was a lower tab, which is Hydrocodone and acetaminophen. Yeah, he said when he took it. Before he felt just total relief, that's like the feeling, you know, makes you feel really, really good. Not long after that, getting his medicine,

then he'd go on and take it, you know, take two, three, or, and then it just, you know, got to experiment more and more. Started using perk 30s, which are definitely flooding into places like Kentucky in the early 2000s. So this is like the sort of first wave of the opioid crisis. So Scotty said at first, he would get pills

from friends, people at work. And then it just, you know, got to well, you know, started buying pills. When do you feel like it crossed over from him? Um, probably my mid-20s. He started taking actually cotton, and he said he was working at the time, stocking bread. Right, he was stocking bread,

he was also working in a factory. Cause I'd be like, like, wow, I'd rather work, cause I'd steal all somebody. And I've always been that way. I don't really want to still off people. See, like I can work and make enough money to... It was really hard.

I mean, I made $500, $600 a week, and I wouldn't have any lift. Because he had spent all of it on pills. Then he was doing that for years, and probably, it's about like 2011 or 12. No heroin camera, and that's when I started doing it. Because it was cheaper? Because it was cheaper. Because it was cheaper.

Because I was spending $80 to $100 on two pills. $80 to $100 for just two pills. Just two pills. You might get a little bit high and it might not last very long at all. No, for $80 or $100, heroin you can get a lot more and it's a lot more powerful. So that just made sense.

Scottie told us he did heroin for like five or six years. He didn't inject it, but he would snort it. And he says he tried to quit a couple of times, but just didn't, which was probably just some excuse for I couldn't. I had to hit rock, complete rock bottom. For Scottie, he says that was the day of the overdose isn't that apartment.

Yeah. Can you pick up at some point like where where do where does it start? You're probably gonna have to ask me Like questions on this because I'm gonna may shy back from some of it a little bit So I asked me again what you do. Yeah, yeah, you're living down there with Jessica and your son Gabriel Suggestica Scotty's girlfriend. The two of them have a son together, Gabriel. And it's her apartment. And at some point Ricky is with you guys.

Again, Ricky is his stepdad. They're like, why is he over there that day? Well, he's burned all his bridges. From what we learned, it sounds like he was last living with friends and they had a falling out. Yeah, it seemed like everybody else had sort of given up on him. We felt sorry for him here and a word ago so you know you can stay here a couple days. I mean that was it. And then um like I don't know where would you start with that day. Um really don't know where to go with this.

Um, really don't know where to go with this. It's fine. I'm trying to not, you know, say it. I think last time we spoke, it was like, uh, at some point, you notice Ricky, I can go from there probably a little bit. Um, you know, I was. So Scottie explained to us that he and Jessica were in the living room in the apartment sitting on the couch and that at some point Ricky had gotten up and gone into the kitchen and after a little while Scotty realized that the kitchen sink, the

water and the kitchen sink had been running for a while. I'm like, why is the water running? You know, so I go in there, goes into the kitchen and sees Ricky standing over the kitchen sink, and he said he looked. Locked up frozen. Like his arms were really stiff, his fists were sort of like clenched. Bracing, grabbing the countertop. With his tongue flopping back and forth in his mouth, you can kind of, his mouth barely open, you can see it.

I kind of knew what it probably was. He's OD-ing. I get a chair, and I get him, I struggle to get him in it. I get him in the probably was. He's OD. I get a chair and I get him, I struggle to get him in it. I get him in the chair and he's out. We have one of those, not only a fossil we got one little spray thing. I was spraying with...

Oh, sprays for the dishes. Yeah. I don't spray him with cold water. I was thinking, well, you know, it might wake him up. I'm washing him in the face and I did smack him in the face few times. He just, he went like up. So then I knew we had to make the decision to call the, the ambulance service. What happened to Max?

I started getting a little bit, you know, out of it, I guess. I don't remember a lot after that. So I've listened to the 911 call and Scott, he didn't really tell us this and I don't remember a lot after that. So I've listened to the 901 call. And Scottie didn't really tell us this. And I don't know. I mean, it's not that I don't believe him, but I do think that there was something, I do think that they sort of like, in that moment, they must have been a little like,

what do we do next? Tuesday, August 8, 2017. Because the thing is, they weren't the first ones to call 911 that day. The first person to call was actually Ricky's brother. Yeah, this is Ron and some Salt Lake. I just got my brother as I did it, but no, I'm fine. Which means someone must have called Ricky's brother. Hold on, what was going on?

They didn't know what to do. Because when he calls, he says something like, They're scared to call because when he calls he says something like Something about outstanding warrants are like they're worried about outstanding warrants And then another thing you hear in these recordings is this other call which is from one of Scotty and Jessica's neighbors. I think she's talking about Scotty because Scotty had come over to her house. And he told me that his back dad was currently overdosed and has a partner and that neighbor's dad called the ambulance.

She made him leave. But can't you even get barely a topsy cat in your ass? And from reading the reports, sounds like they're one year old son was in the apartment at the time. Oh, wow, really? Yeah, they're one year old, Gabriel. I think they were worried about the police coming

and losing custody of their kid. And so I saw like for them in that moment, when Ricky was lying on the floor, I think there were some questions in their mind like, what's the right thing to do, and how do we do the right thing without getting ourselves in trouble? But, they did make the call. Yeah, I made an ambulance to Menorne Heights, part 3 at 1. Jessica calls 911.

It was two minutes after Ricky's brother made that first call. Okay, what's going on? And, he's at the hospital. I said, I'll, yeah, I'll believe so. Okay. And I believe one of the reasons that they made the call that day was because they knew about this law. I didn't know exactly what it said.

I didn't know that it came in my mind. Yeah, we'll be okay. A law that was designed to protect people in exactly this situation. It's a good Samaritan law. It's called the Good Samaritan law. It was developed because we want to protect people who care about other people.

So around 2010, 2011-12, as this opioid epidemic was escalating. House file 238, the Good Samaritan Bill. A lot of states started adopting these 9-1-1 Good Samaritan laws. 46 states, including Kentucky, now have these laws. Which essentially say if you're using drugs with someone and that person overdoses, we don't want you fearful that if you make the call that may save their life, that you'll

be in trouble. Like when the police show up, you and the person who overdosed won't be charged. Your granted immunity because you essentially did the right thing. Like you reached out for help. There's sort of like intent of the Good Samaritan law. It's like make people who are in the presence of a drug overdose. You want these people to call for help because otherwise there's a great rest that these people are just going to die.

Where does the Good Samaritan, I mean, it is a Christian parent. We got the Bible right here. So yeah, it's a parable in the gospel of Luke. So it's Jesus is telling the story. And so there's a Jew he's on the road to Jericho. And as he's walking along, some robbers come and they steal his money and they beat him up and they leave him in a ditch. And they've essentially left him for dead.

And then another person comes along the road. And but instead of helping him, this person crosses the road and keeps on walking. Second person comes by the same thing. And then a third person comes and it's a Samaritan. And the Jews and the Samaritans were mortal enemies. They absolutely detested each other. But when the Samaritan sees this Jew, land in a ditch, in need, the good Samaritan stops, and he helps this guy and gives him money and shelter and treats his wounds, and you know, like essentially saves his life. So it's a story about like showing kindness to your enemy or your enemy showing kindness to you, right? I guess the other thing that's interesting about this is that Jesus is talking to a legal scholar.

And so it's sort of about setting up morality versus the law. And so I guess what he's saying is that if you see somebody that's in need, you don't think about what the law says you should or shouldn't do, you see somebody that's in need, you don't think about what the law says you should or shouldn't do. You just help the person in need. It's like, you know, unconditional love takes precedent over the letter of the law.

But then of course, there is the law. Ronnie, those New York reporters are here to stick a microphone on your face and what seems to be happening across the country is prosecutors are beginning to push back Against the good Samaritan come on in guys. Thank you. So we talked to this guy Ronnie Goldie He's the Commonwealth attorney. He's also the lead prosecutor in the case against Ricky Jessica and Scotty It's not a weird that you guys got got this from out of New York and it's just not something that I would have expected, certainly, because you know, we're used to our own little problems down here and I would assume you've got bigger problems in New York to deal with than what

we were dealing with, but that's fine. I mean, I'm glad that you guys got down this way. So what did he say to you about the case? As Ronnie sort of explained it to us, you go back with our legislature and the way they have drafted the Good Samaritan law. The way the law is written in Kentucky is that if you call 911 for a drug overdose,

you're only granted immunity for two specific types of charges. You cannot charge them with possession of control substance. Drug possession. Or possession of drug paraphernalia. Drug paraphernalia. Just those of charges. You cannot charge them with possession of control substance. Drug possession. Or possession of drug preference. Drug paraphernalia. Just those two charges. Well, we didn't charge them with possession, we charged them with one endangerment.

And this is where you see this sort of pushback. One endangerment, that's a legal term for when you do something that puts somebody at risk for physical injury or death. It's a conscious disregard for what could occur. It's like driving drunk. So in this situation, combining the drugs everywhere that were laced with fentanyl, you created

a risk number one of the child being seriously injured or killed based on an overdose or other injuries. And then also you placed paramedics, law enforcement, and social workers that would have to come in under that circumstance. So rather than granting Scotty, Ricky, and Jessica protection, Ronnie Goldie, Commonwealth of Kentucky has charged them with 10 counts of felony one endangerment. So each one of them are getting hit with 10 felony charges.

Whoa. Why 10? So there was one charge for endangering the child. So like the one year old could have gotten into the drug somehow and become exposed that way. And then there was one additional, there were nine additional charges, one for each of the people that came to the house that day. The police, the social workers, and all the EMS that responded. And I think we should say here that the Jessica who's now facing these 10 felony charges, the day of the overdose,

she actually tested negative for opiates. Right, and their kid checked out okay too. But I think she's now facing these charges because essentially she made that call. She was like in the apartment and made the call. The other thing to mention is that like the thing that she and Scotty were scared of, which was losing custody of their son, that did happen.

I'm not mad about that. I understand that. I understand that aspect. You know, drug stuff found in home. You know, they took him to understand that. As far as the other things, 10 felonies, I don't understand them. But Ronnie's argument is that because of the number of people who had been overdosing in the community, because of the local and national news reporting about heroin being lace with drugs like fentanyl and car fentanyl, that you can argue. That's a risk that you knew was out there, but yet you're using anyway, you should know better.

Well, it feels like, I don't know, I don't know if loophole is the right word, but it's like it's a way in which you can still, as you've said, you're precluded from bringing charges for possession of drugs and perifinelia, but there is this sort of side door to be like, well, we can charge you for this. No, that's not the case at all. It's not like we're trying to say, okay, we don't like the Getsmerid and Law. Let's go around it.

I know that's not how I work. That's not how we work. This is the thing I don't really understand. It seems like the net effect of the Getsmerid and Law is to sort of reduce fatalities. And it seems like the data I've seen is like it's rather successful in reducing fatality. So you are by encouraging people to call 911,

you are reducing fatalities. And in this case, if they hadn't called 911, it's possible that the rechimae's the patient would have died. So in some ways, I feel like, sure, I get it. And I totally understand it. I totally understand the reason behind it. But what I may think morally or personally, I don't have that luxury. I have a statute that I have to follow because when I took the oath of office, it is that I will uphold the laws of the Commonwealth. And if it's a crime, it's a crime.

I don't get to say, well, but they were trying to do the right thing. If it's a crime, it is a crime, and I have to pursue it. We actually, we talked to another prosecutor in Baldwinens case. Okay. Kim Hunt, press. She's the county attorney who indicted Ricky,

Scotty and Jessica. You know, you have people whose jobs are to protect the public who have to be there. You know, the message needs to go out there. These people are protected as well. There wasn't like pressure. People weren't calling you locally or there wasn't somebody from like the state. No, no. There was no like no one calling from the state or anything like that. I mean, I just had my local people, you know, that were concerned about it. Was it the people who were there? We're calling you or like who? I kind of think one of them did call me, you know, and just say is there anything we can do, you know, with regard to this?

Is there an appropriate criminal charge? Do you remember who that was? Off the top of your head? Um, believe Mr. Whiteman is who did. Okay, so we talked to Scotty Whiteman. We asked him essentially why was it that he wanted to see these people charged. I view it as a call for accountability. Third New in Harrowin, we'll get out here, we'll roll around in the yard for a week.

I have no issues with that. But when you do something that could cause harm to me, I've got a problem with that. I think, like, I understand that, but ultimately also feel like that they truly didn't know that like this is a drug that somebody could like brush up against or something like that and potentially have a reaction that there's just not enough knowledge there for them to have even even a sense of the fact that they could be in danger in other people. And then sort of to know that you had been through this experience with this accident, I always kind of felt like, oh, I'm just

surprised that that you wouldn't maybe extend to them a sort of like, I don't know, sympathies are right word, but. I think that if you harm someone, you should be held accountable. You guys know now that I'm going on vacation. September the 16th is a hard day. That's the anniversary of his truck accident where he killed three people. Is that Sunday? Yes, because, yep. Yes. So, Sunday, I will probably lock myself in a room, away from everybody for the biggest part of the morning.

If I'm scheduled to work on September the 16th, it's a day that I take off from the morning till noon is time for me to pay my respects to them. And even though here we are coming up on 19 years later, I still do that. And it's just, it's just my way of dealing with it, I guess. Wait, what are you doing that moment when you isolate yourself? It's one of those that I reflect on that morning

and I still try to figure out if there was anything that I could have done different that may have changed the outcome. What could I have done? Me personally. I still have nightmares. I still wake up and cold sweats. It's just...

I'm curious, you mentioned this yesterday. Last time we were here. But so initially I think there was a lawsuit filed by the family against the company, but then there was a civil suit that you had to go through. You said eventually, bankrupt to you. What I'm wondering is like Did you feel that was deserved? Did you feel like that was justified? Yes, yes

I took three members of that family away from them that took potential Arne's away from them. That took potential earnings away from that family. Birthdays and Christmas is missed with those that were taking that day. So yeah, I feel that we're very justified. I was held accountable for my actions that morning. And then when you look at the exposure case, he needs to be accountable for those actions because he knew the risks that were involved. Right, just as I think like getting behind the wheel of a truck, you know, on September 16, 1999, and you know there could be consequences, but you never, that's why it's an accident, right? It's the same thing if you had taken like, I don't know, to, to milligrams less of the drug. It's like, it's seem like really, they seem like really similar situations almost. And I guess I'm just wondering

like, what's, why is it hard to forgive him for that? I didn't say I didn't forgive him for it. It's just, I think, it needs to be held accountable for his actions. I mean, all of that sort of brings us to the big question in the story. What happened that day? Because if we're going to hold Scotty Hat in accountable for what happened to Scotty Whiteman, you need to be able to show that the drugs in the apartment or whatever was on Ricky's skin could actually cause him to overdose.

Do you have any reason to doubt that? Well, the reason i found the story was it was reported as a credible report in the new york times like everybody sort of acknowledge that you know first responders were going down all across the country so but but when i talk to john col the toxicologist from earlier he said well i don't doubt any of the symptoms that any of these fire em s andMS and police officers

have experienced. He was skeptical. It's not 100% clear if that's actually due to the fentanyl or to some other event that occurred in those moments. And John Cole wasn't alone. I mean, I started calling like doctors and toxicologists, pharmacologists, and they said that like the risk that fentanyl posed to first responders was extremely low. Why? What was there, what was there thinking?

Well, for one, I mean like the powder doesn't spontaneously aerosolize, it doesn't like poof into the air, so that makes like breathing it in pretty unlikely. And as far as the skin contact thing. It's so poorly absorbed. So the substance itself doesn't pass through the skin easily. To get fentanyl to absorb through your skin, you have to use a special matrix to be able to... No, if you wanna make a fentanyl patch,

you have to sort of use the solvent... To get the absorption, to even be to the point where it's therapeutic, let alone an overdose. Even if you put a fentanyl patch on, it takes a very long time for the drug to sort of like achieve a meaningful dose in the body. But something is happening to these people. I mean, you have to assume so if it's not the drugs, what is it?

It says, yeah, what John Cole and a couple of other people brought up was this idea that maybe it wasn't the external situation that they're in. It was more something internal. There's no question in my mind that every one of these people felt symptoms that are very real. But John said the symptoms don't really match the symptoms of a typical opioid overdose. For instance, hyperventilating.

On opioids you're usually breathing slower. Not breathing faster. Or a lot of first responders reported feeling a sense of great, impending doom. Opus are all about. Serenity and pleasure, not impending doom. And so if you look at the symptoms and sort of the stories that are being told about these new substances

and these new situations in our culture right now, he says it kind of looks like a mass panic. So there is a condition called mass-negogenic illness. This is something that John Cole says he's actually come across in his work at the the Minnesota Poison Control. There was a school event in a bunch of he said that about four or five years ago there was this incident at a public school in Minnesota, where a bunch of kids started like killing over, because they thought it was like carbon monoxide poisoning.

Subsequent student after student began to feel ill. They took all these kids to the hospital and they gave them blood tests. None of the blood levels were positive for carbon dioxide. Just didn't check out. And once the medical conditions are ruled out from a known poison, you have to start considering other causes, and that event was consistent with this condition called mass

psychogenic illness. And so when you think about first responders showing up the scene of a drug overdose, and what's running through their mind is this like constant onslaught of news reports and other sort of anecdotal accounts they've heard about their friends and their colleagues that are you know passing out. It isn't that anybody's crazy or weak, it's that their mind is causing them to be physically ill. They really are sick, but it isn't necessarily due to the thing that they believe that it is in the moment. Does that make sense? My response to that is, so we told Scotty what we knew, what these scientists had been saying.

And Scotty says basically, like, look, they can say whatever they want to in their labs, but this is what I went through. I just know the effects of that day, that I came in contact with something that put me in an overdosing situation. And inmate at the Clark County Detention Center, Kentucky, who are charges for your call have been accepted. Hello. Hi, Ricky, this is Peter Smith. I'm a reporter. So I ended up sending a postcard to the jail because the jails don't accept letters because they're afraid of drugs getting in.

And a week later, I got a call from Ricky Mays. Ricky is Scotty's stepfather, and he's also the person who overdosed who Scotty Whiteman treated. And he told me that there wasn't a whole lot of toxicology evidence or medical records or much of anything really, but he had agreed to a plea deal for all 10 wants an endangerment charges.

Yes, I played music. I took three years, I mean, more or less force. You said you were more or less forced? Yes. Because Ricky's a repeat felony offender, he was looking at like 20 years instead of the three that he took. Well, the last message you're putting out there is if the BOD's ran your ring thing like it's throwing in a ditch. You know, leave them. It's a message that the court system's putting out the people. That's why I take it.

And how does that make you feel? I mean, is that not good? Yeah. It seems like if they didn't call you, we wouldn't be talking right now. Do what? I said if they hadn't called 911 that day, like the Good Samaritan Law sort of says you can,

doesn't seem like we'd be talking right now. They didn't write things. Yeah. They're more or less now, they're painful, what they're more or less now they're paying for what they've done. Anything else you want to ask? I'm sorry I just ran blonde all day. Unlike Ricky, Scotty has refused to take a plea deal. Instead he's going to risk up to 20 years in jail by taking his case to trial. I think about it every day. Every day it worked for at least a couple hours. I think about it in the same, same answer comes up every day.

I have to take it to trial. I don't want him doing this to everybody, man. They're going to be afraid to call 911. I feel like for me, like, giving the way it's gone, given the way people and how they think about drugs, like I just, I don't, I don't know if I would have the same sort of like confidence or conviction. I understand you're coming from that's what my lawyer says to think when a few things comes light, you know, like they may say, well he did get sick or we're gonna say, well he didn't test positive for anything, could have been something else.

Every little bit of doubt that you create is reasonable doubt. You know, and all you got to do is convince one person on that jury to say, no, I'm not doing it. That's all you got to do. Obviously, the jury will be making a decision about the case and about what happened in the apartment that day. But I think there's sort of a bigger, sort of more consequential message that they'll be sending about what people like Scotty and Scotty should believe and what they should fear and what they should do going forward.

If these charges end up getting dismissed or if it goes to trial and the people are found not guilty for one endangerment, how are you going to feel? If they're found not guilty then I'm going to trust in the judicial system that there was things that come to life that maybe I wasn't aware of and if they're not found guilty then yeah so be it and if he goes out and uses again and I'm on shift when it happens and I walk in and say, guess what? I'm treating. My job is to do everything within my power to save his life.

And that's what I'm gonna do. And I ask the other Scotty, but would you make the same call? Do you think other people would make the same call? If like, if this is what's on the end of that call potentially. Call them one month call. They'll try to, most people, depending on who they are, they'll probably try to just leave the person, dragging them outside or something like that.

People in jail are saying do that or cover up everything at the crime scene or whatever. Or just not call. I said that if I knew there would have been 10 felonies man, I don't know man, it's still got to call. The guy can't die. That's what I believe. I really believe that man. When Scottie hadn't first got arrested for the want and dangerment charges, he spent six months in jail.

After getting out, he now attends church every Sunday with his family. What are you watching? Veggie, veggie tails? Veggie tails? You and Jessica have partial custody back of their son Gabriel. He like wed details. What the bird's house? That's a tomato.

That's a tomato. Yeah, that's a tomato. That's a tomato. That's a cucumber. That's a... That's a... Which, Mr. Hatton, so... In both he and Jessica...

I think at this point, we probably need to... We're gonna head into Santa Trauma, the Alps. In both he and Jessica have pending trials scheduled for December I'm sorry. Okay, uh, reporter Peter Smith and Matt Kielty. Also special thanks in this episode to Cecil Lawson and Jason York and Gary Beelert and all the EMTs in the medics to generously allow us to go around and ride with them see what they saw. Exactly. And Tahtout and John Sunderlin, Chris Kipling, Dr. David Yurling, Dr. Dan Chituroni, Fiona Thomas, Dr. Ken Williams,

and Corieste Davis. I'm Chad Abhamrod. I'm Robert Kroich. Thanks for listening. Radio Lab was created by Chad Abhamrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulu Miller and Latif Nasir are our co-hosts. Dylan Keefe is our director of Sound Design.

Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Q. Sik, Aketty Foster Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gabel, Maria Pasco, T.R.S. Sindu, Ngana Sanban Dam, Matt Q.T., Anime Q.N., Alex Nisen, Sarekari, Anajra Squat Bas, Sare Sanback, Ariana Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Andrew Vinyales. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Kriger, and Natalie Middleton. Hi, this is Finn calling from Stores, Connecticut. Leadership Support for Radio Lab Science Programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation.

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