Radiolab - The Secret to a Long Life

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Producer Sindhu Gnanasambandan wants to know how she can live the longest feeling life possible. The answer leads her on a journey to make one week feel like two. And the journey leads her to a whole new answer.Special thanks to Jo Eidman, Nathan Peereboom, Kristin Lin, Stacey Reimann, Ash Sanders… and an extra special thanks to Jae Minard for editorial supportEPISODE CREDITSReported by - Sindhu GnanasambandanProduced by - Sindhu GnanasambandanOriginal music and sound design contributed by - Jeremy Bloomwith mixing help from - Arianne WackFact-checking by - Emily Kriegerand Edited by  - Pat Walters   Our newsletter comes out every Wednesday. It includes short essays, recommendations, and details about other ways to interact with the show. Sign up (https://radiolab.org/newsletter)! Radiolab is supported by listeners like you. Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab (https://members.radiolab.org/) today. Follow our show on Instagram, Twitter and Facebook @radiolab, and share your thoughts with us by emailing [e-mail].   Leadership support for Radiolab’s science programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, a Simons Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Foundational support for Radiolab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Wait, you're listening to Radio Lab from WNYC. This is Radio Lab, I'm Lula Miller. I'm LuttifNasser. And we're going to start this one. So it's right here, only grab it. With our producer, Cindy Nian, and some bun dun. I had to take the tape off from my wall. Who a few weeks ago brought me into the studio

to show me a very large poster. Life calendar and lots of red X's. Yeah, so this is a poster that I keep across from my bed. Okay. It's basically this like giant grid of boxes. There's like 52 going across, 90 going down. And every Sunday I use this red marker to cross off a box. So 52 weeks for a year. So each box is a week. Exactly. And like in theory, you'll maybe make it to 90 years. Exactly. If I live to be 90 years old, every single box will be checked off. I'm triggered. I am. I am. Why on earth?

Yeah. Well, I got this poster six years ago when I was living in this Zen Buddhist commune. And part of the practice there was to like really confront our own mortality. Right. And this poster was a way for me to do that. But as I've been doing this for years now, you know, just checking off a box week after week after week, I'm like starting to notice something which is that like these weeks are going faster and

faster. And like I know people say this happens that time moves more quickly as we get older. But like I'm really feeling it happening, you know, like I'm about to turn 30 and I feel like I'm going to wake up tomorrow, 80 years old, staring death right in the face. That's interesting because I think you're right that like a lot of us do get the blurry sense of like, whoa, whoa, that year just went by, but for you having those regular check-in points must make you notice it in a slightly more granular way. Yeah, and it's made me like desperately want to know, is there something I can

do to slow this down? To slow time? Yeah, like, is there a way for me to make my life like this one? Single life I have. Yeah. Is there a way for me to make it feel... longer? Could you send me a link to where you one could find this post? Yeah.

So I actually called up a couple of time perception researchers. Mark Whitman. From the Institute of Frontier Areas of Psychology and Mental Health in Freiburg, Germany. David Eagleman, I'm a neuroscientist and writer. Okay. Friend of the show. And I asked him my question, how do I live the longest feeling life possible? And they said one way to make time feel longer.

Think about sitting on the international plane flight. Just imagine you're waiting for the bus or a subway and it's not coming. Do something super boring. Is that the life that you would want? No, no it's not. But fortunately, according to David and Mark, there's this whole other way to extend time too. The retrospective one where I think, what a year I've had.

This happened, that happened, amazing. Wow. And I was like, yes, that's the one. Like, that's what I want. So you want it to feel like it was longer when you look back. Yeah. Yeah. When I'm in my deathbed I want to look back and be like wow that was a long and meaningful life Okay, and stretching time out that way Mark and David say is all about Memory memory memory collecting memories. Huh like that's how our brain measures time. It says oh wait

How long has it been since X? And then it says, oh all right, we'll see. This, this, this, this. Okay, great. So it must have been a week or a month or 10 years. So then I was like, okay, I need memories. How do I make more memories? Good question.

The only reason you have memory at all is so that you can navigate your future. And so when you're writing stuff down, it's something that your brain feels is important. So you brushing your teeth this morning? Do you remember? Probably not. No. Why would you want to memorize your tooth brushing when you've done this for 365 times each morning the last year? Which is why for many people, the pandemic years were sort of a blur.

There was nothing new happening. And it's also why time seems to move faster as we get older. Sometimes people say, oh, I think this has to do with the fraction of your life hypothesis, which is just that, you know, a year when you're eight years old is a big chunk of your life, but a year when you're eight years old is a smaller chunk.

That's what I always heard. That's not the whole story. As you get older and older, there are fewer reasons to lay down memory because essentially your brain has got the stick and there's no corrections that need to be made. Oh. But when you're 80 years old,

if you go on some great new adventure that you weren't expecting, that seems to have lasted long time. Whatever age you are now, if you have an incredible weekend, and you look back, you think, oh my gosh, it's been forever since I was at work on Friday. But if you have a boring weekend, you think, oh my gosh, I was just here. And so this can happen at any age that if you force your brain to lay down new memories,

then retrospectively that makes it seem as though more time has passed. And so you could say having a life with a lot of novelty, change, with emotions, such a life will imprint more deeply in your memory and then looking back at the last day, you last week, you last 10 years, even your lifetime, then the longer, subjectively time stretches, or time feels. So according to my scientists, if I want to make my life feel longer,

avoid routine and seek novelty in your life, that will be like the formula. You know, you can brush your teeth with your other hand, you can shave with your other hand. David, give me a bunch of these like little... When you get out of the shower, try to towel yourself off in a different way, because I've noticed people always towel themselves

like unconscious zombies with life hacky tricks. I mean, easy, go unplug your coffee machine, put it somewhere else, rearrange the food in your fridge. It just, it just, it's just in a different cab. And you're still wearing a different drawer? Seriously, a bunch of them. You pull this one off its nail here, this one off its nail, here your swap on, you switch it,

you push your desk over to the other wall. Okay. But now that I understand how this works, yeah. Like, I don't just want to make life a little bit longer here and there. I want to see if I can stretch time apart completely. Yeah.

Like how long can I actually make it feel? Ooh, okay. So Lulu, I've actually come here to tell you that for the next week, yeah, I'm going to live the most novel life that I possibly can. Wait, what do you mean? Well, I have some rules. I'm gonna wake up in a different bed every day, not my own bed, a new bed. Whoa, okay.

I will eat only things I've never eaten before. Okay. And outside of the non-negotiable things of being human, I will only do things I've never done before. Wait, how? Okay. What? Wait, you're about to go before. Wait, how? Okay. What? Wait, you're about to go on like a crazy experiment?

Yeah, exactly. Like I want to see, can I make a week feel like two weeks? That's my goal. All right, well, I'm excited for you. Thanks, I'm excited too. Sinder will be back in a week and we'll be back in about two minutes because on the radio we can do that. Hey this is Radio Lab, I'm Lulu. We're talking about how to make your life

feel longer with our producer Sindoon Y Nyanisambandan, and whether it's possible to make a single week feel like two weeks by doing only novel things. Sindu? Oh my goodness. Okay, where have you traveled? What have you done? Throw the pastiche at me. Okay, I'm just gonna, I'm going through the list. Yeah, love it. Okay, novelty.

Here I come. You know where I go to volunteer for lunch? I volunteer at a soup kitchen. Mm. What's the job? Radio chat, radio chat. I convinced a man on the streets. You get, no, let me try one.

Did you teach me how to skateboard? Oh my God, fun! Oh, can you teach me how to skateboard? Oh my god fun! Can you just eat it like that? Oh you know food! Found some of these little golden berries in Chinatown. I went to the New York State Supreme Court and watched a couple trials. So who are you? I'm Jay. I attended a dating app mixer with my boyfriend Jay I think this is an app for novelty seekers. Hi talk to a bunch of strangers there I went on a date with someone who revealed to me that his mom might have gotten murdered the weekend beforehand Just person after person blow up time

It does Sometimes it flows faster sometimes sometimes it's slower. Like a river. I needed to leave that like an hour ago. And I don't want to go to a random person's house right now, and I don't want to wake up at 7 a.m. to go surfing. Like I'm not, and I haven't eaten basically all day because I can't find food that I haven't eaten before

Sounds like you're noveltyed out I'm tired We're experiencing your dark night of the soul, but it's day one And I just want to go I kind of fell apart, but I made it to the place I was gonna stay that night But I made it to the place I was gonna stay that night. This is your room? Yeah, nice to here. You can't stay here.

Which was this place I found on couch surfing. It was essentially the top bunk in the bed of this very nice Turkish man. And the next day, I woke up feeling good. I felt ready to keep going. I was looking for a New York surf school. I went surfing. Make sure you pick the right way. With a bunch of 12-year-old.

There might be a small one, and then you take the small small one and then like four big ones come and you miss them I feel like good general life advice wait for the right wave. Yeah, I'm not a swimmer like I can I can survive for a little bit, but I can't really swim wait you can't swim and you went surfing Yeah, yeah, uh, were you wearing a life jacket? No, but I mean the surfboard is floaty, right? Like you just gonna float on the surfboard Yeah, but. Were you wearing a life jacket? No, but I mean, the surfboard is floaty, right? Like, you just gonna float on the surfboard. Okay, yeah, but like the ocean, you can't, okay. So this is just a little memo made surf lesson. I'm like good at surf.

The very first time I did it, I made it through the entire way. Wow. And the 12 year old, you're watching me and I was like, oh yeah, you thought I was an old lady, who's just gonna fall on my face. Hey. It was saying, it's saying, it's saying,

later that day I met up with Hussein. He was my couch-surfing host from the night before. He's a petty cab driver actually in Central Park and he offered me a ride. Come on, okay. Oh, watch out. That was close here. He's sitting on the bike sideways facing me.

At one point he made me start driving the pedicam. I love that we just created that. I hit the curb multiple times, almost crashed into people. And then on day three, I don't know if you know anything about atmospheric perspective. Nothing. Okay. I learned how to paint with the crèlix.

How hot is this? You know, 2003. Ooh, there, it's a bubble. Oh, it's growing, Rose. And blow glass. And later that night, I went to this like performance art spa thing. It was just like a lot of naked people and gongs. What?

Mm-hmm. Okay. Hello. Okay. So it is Friday. No, not Friday. It is Wednesday night and I'm gonna sleep on my roof. My brain is shutting down.

It's like, I can't make eye contact and ask questions that make any sense. I can't. I think my whole system is just like exhausted. The system that is just like on a high alert because everything is different all the time. I don't know. But then there are moments like this where I'm lying on my roof staring up at the beautiful sky on a perfect night and wondering how I have never done this before. You know it's just like so many

things I just haven't done. Okay I should go to bed. Good night. Okay, how's time feeling for you at this point? It's stretching. It definitely felt like more than three days. But I don't know. I was like starting to hit this sort of, it almost felt like a monotonous piece. I could do a new thing and take the subway,

cross town and do a new thing and take the subway again. And it almost felt like I was making a routine out of novel to or something. The novelty itself was becoming old a little bit. I was like, okay, I need to change something up here. Mark did tell me that doing emotionally rich things with the people you love, that also becomes memories. So the next day...

Oh my god. Oh, that is already kind of out. I decided to go find some of those. I'm just kidding. Packed up. It's got a walk over to my rental car. So I rented a car and I got out of New York City. My bridge, there is water everywhere.

She's crossing state lines people, crossing state lines. Amazing view of the skyline. Which is actually pretty novel for me. Like I've never done a solar road trip before. Better rest up and no further to Connecticut. Oh, oh, oh, oh. Did the massage chair. Mm-hmm.

Continue for 66 miles. And time makes your bolder even children get older. Okay, we're going to Tasha's house. And eventually, I made it up to Vermont, where I met my friend's baby for the first time. Mm. Also hung out with her toddler. You guys want to hold it, you can.

But be gentle not to drop it. So it just found a newt. This child's world was constant novelty. Also hung out with her toddler To just found a newt this child's world was constant novelty. I just wanted to discover him a little her time probably moving slower than for any of us Continue for 56 miles. Then I looped back down south Another cowboy song drove east east east super east Yeah, I've been listening to country music for four and a half hours straight. I'm into it. To one of the tips of our continent, Cape Cod. Okay.

You're against the nation, son. God, I think it's dad's outside. To meet Jay's parents. Oh, that's a big new thing. Hi. To meet Jay's parents. Oh, that's a big new thing. Hi Good nice to meet you. We do have several novel things for you to do if you want. They were like in on the adventure from the beginning. It's just so sweet. Yeah. It's like the biggest bag of potato chips I know that Cape Cod potato chips. Yeah, the echo of the lighthouse.

The lighthouse on that bag. We ate the chips inside it together meta I caught my first clams got the big one. I hear the water boiling here we go So they're dead by now Till they open okay This like the clam part is like the chewy part. I also ate my first So they're dead by now? They're not dead until they open. Oh god. Okay, this one. The clam part is like the chewier part. I also ate my first clam.

I'm so grateful that you put breadcums and cheese in it. Everything's free. All right, can you imagine? And our last stop together was the duck. This is like Christmas morning all the time. Where they have this little swap shop. Two squirt guns, ball for the dogs. So corner of crutches. So lovely.

Lovely. Thank you for coming. This was such a delight. Be safe. Thank you. I'll see you both hopefully soon. Anyway, I think that's, that's, yeah. I mean that, that's, and then did,

was you come home from Cape Cod on, on yesterday on Sunday? No, there was one more day, but I think I'm okay. Save telling you about that day. Oh, was it an action packed day? No, it wasn't. Okay.

Like, just to circle back to your investigation, you just lived this week with like easily at least 40 new things. I'm a ton of day, like pretty big things, like, new ways of moving through the world, surfing, skating, multiple state lines, Massachusetts, Vermont, like new ways of moving matter, glass below it, like you have this like incredible range. Yeah.

Like overall, when you look back on the past week, did it feel stretched longer than a typical week shorter? Like, how did it make time work? Yeah, I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm exaggerating, but it truly was time-expanding beyond what I even imagined. It's very long. Very long, yeah, it worked. Yeah, it worked with like flying colors. It really worked. Did the week feel like too? Probably two or three weeks.

I mean, okay, look, it's actually hard to say exactly. That's not how my brain is processing it. But we do know that the mechanism here is memory. And I started to think about it almost as like control-saved moments. Like how many moments did I do a little control-save on? That's interesting. And that I feel like I have more of a sense of. Yeah. That's interesting. And it's weird. Like how many control saves when you're just like living your life on autopilot? Yeah. How many do you think you get a day or a week? Very few. Very few. Like are there entire days that don't even get a control save? I think so. Yeah,

most days, right? Like I don't think I could come up with a memory for every day of my life. Like most of them are not, were collectible like they're gone. And I know you're fresh off of it right now, but like how many control saves do you think this week? God. My God, it's hard because again, it's fresh. I'd be curious how I answer this like in a year.

Yeah, but right now, there's hundreds. Hundreds, wow. I would say hundreds. Yeah. When you look at the spread of the week, like, were there parts that felt particularly stretched out? Yeah, actually. There was this like one hour stretch, honestly felt like

a whole day. Wait, that's insane. You have four radios. It was a second night. Whose art is this? Children's art. You're a teacher. I went over to the home of my second couch surfing house. His name's Adam. Right. That's for me too. too. We had this long leisurely tea time. Is that a problem? That we're always moving our food to the right first. Like our tea's gonna... Maybe they already have. And then at some point he was like, okay.

I have an idea. I want to see what you think about my idea. He says, today is a full moon. And technically the full moon should rise at about the same time as the sun sets. Okay. And so he's like, should we go see it? Like, yeah, that sounds fun. So...

You know we're here in Riverside Park now. We went up this giant rock hill, but... We don't have a decorative view of the east. We could see the sunset, we could not see... There's too many buildings in New York City, like we could not see the other side, the east side. Okay. Now we have another quest. We have 20 minutes, and then at some point it was like... It's a width of Manhattan. Okay, well one of us probably just has to go to the east side. Okay. Now we have another quest. We have 20 minutes and then at some point it was like-

It's a width of Manhattan. Okay well one of us probably just has to go to the east side. Okay, the boss is right there. I'm very fast. And so he instantly saw this bus and started like chasing it down. Oh my god. He's just sprinting. No.

He doesn't make it. So then I grab a city bike. I'm gonna go that way. Okay. Stay here. And I just start going for it. Like I'll go across Manhattan to see the moon rise while he just stays and watches the sunset. Keep getting stopped on the way but I think I'm pretty close.

Hello? Hi. Okay, here's the situation. Okay. So I made it across town, and I'm looking out into the East River. So that's a good news, right? But the thing is I'm looking into Roosevelt Island, which honestly is not the worst, but there are trees So I'm gonna, you know, there's like a good few inches That I'm seeing above the horizon

God think it's just that I think it's just that you can just set so we missed it But then I see some other people there, so I'm like, hey are you guys here to see the moon? Are you here to see the moon or no? There's a rocket launch actually there's a rocket launch from Virginia tonight. Wait wait wait no wait wait Adam Can you hear this like a NASA rocket? What what type of rocket is it? It's a resupply ship to the International Space Station I know But then, what?

I'm so sorry, look at the moon. Oh my god. The moon finally appeared over the buildings, and it was a super moon, Lulu. It's so huge. Giant orange moon. Just ride the moon. It's so big.

It's very orange. It's very huge. That's what you think. I mean, I can see the side of the island. And I got so much for and I guess technically during that hour seconds on earth we're moving like this but as I look back on it now I can feel the wind on my face as I'm peddling across the city. I can see the man pointing out that rocket,

the craters on that giant orange moon. And again, I look back at my tape, and it was all just about an hour. But it feels so much longer than that, and it'll probably always stay with me that way. Mm. So it seems like there's also a power in expectation getting broken, like things not going to expectation.

Yeah. That seems to get a control save. I think you're totally right. Yeah, surprise, like being surprised by the world. Hmm. You know, this is making me want to also ask you now that you've successfully extended time. Are you sure that's something you want? Are you so sure that's something you want?

Yeah, okay. This might be a good time for me to tell you about that last day. Okay, okay. So yeah, okay, so tell me about your last day. So on Saturday night, J and I drove back from Cape Cod, and by the end of the eight-hour drive, we decided to part ways. Like, break up? Yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry.

What do you want to share about that? Not much about that. I actually don't want to share anything about that. Okay. But it did mean that I stopped the experiment. Like I went home to my same old bed and ended up just like curling up with my little stuffed animal monkey.

And then the next day, we're at the monastery. I went up state to my monastery. Hmm. I'm marching down correctly. I'm so excited. Oh, it's true! With like a bunch of my best friends and... I know it was the last minute.

Oh my God. We like did this little ceremony. Wow, those tomatoes. And then we'd all brought food so we had this like potluck. And then we just like chatted and hung out and someone played the guitar. It's kind of the perfect day. The magic work. Are you driving us? Oh, I'm sorry.

Back to the scene. Are you driving us? No, I was. Oh, I'm sorry. Woo! Bye! Cindy, will you come up for harvest week with us? This last day showed me like I need days like that.

Like I need comfortable, familiar days. I mean, sometimes they're just necessary. Right. But now I know that those days are more likely to feel shorter to get deleted. And I guess, Lulu, we've talked about how your life right now has a lot of routine. Kids, a wife, a house. Do you? My born as my life, deleting life. Oh, no.

I mean, look, I want those things too. But you are at a stage where you've made certain choices that like the research says, does really out with it shorten your felt sense of time, like having kids as you put it deleting my time. Just give me that word choices loaded. But shorten in your felt sense of time. Um, like how are you processing this research? Do I regret like getting married and having kids? Like how are you processing this research?

Do I regret like getting married and having kids? No, but it does make me think about the time inside. Those choices differently. Like it makes me mourn all those little moments. Just, you know, like my kid last night dancing to Green Day and saying, come here, come say hi to my friends and pointing to a blank wall and me being confused. And there were like these four shadows and you made me say hi to each one. Like that, that's going to get wiped.

That'll be gone. Like hundreds of thousands of seconds and moments just gone. And so I respect and I appreciate your going out and testing and sharing the knowledge of how to extend time. But I also hold a candle to all that time, all those moments getting lost. Oh, come on, okay, sorry to barge in here, but no way, that to me is like antithetical to the whole spirit of this story. Like that's the predictable bone utas at the end

to people so that we're not like judging the status quo normies who are just doing the same thing over and over again. Like it's like, no, go try a new food, go to an restaurant, go do a new thing. I want people to wake up and feel bad about like just being on autopilot for their lives. Like you have one life, like wake up.

Okay, like, okay, point taken and I think there's some admitted self reassurance of like attempting to tell myself that my life is important. And I point taken. But also, I just question the value system. Like it's only remembering the stuff where some expectation gets broken. And like who decided is like evolution decided

that the things that we're gonna remember, that we're gonna privilege, that are gonna keep us awake. Have to be novel, have to be jaunt, like have to be breaking some rule which to me, it just smacks of fear and like self preservation. And what if we could like rebel against our master wire, to also hold the little like like, moments that normally get wiped. How can you rebel against your own brain? What does that even mean? Actually, I mean, I do feel like that's sort of what I do when I meditate.

There's another way to go about this. Then just insisting on novel to your whole life, which could get kind of expensive. I actually called up my Zen Buddhist priest, Kosen, from that monastery. And he told me that having novel experiences, that's actually just a shortcut to the thing that actually makes memories. All that what we call novelty does is force us to pay attention.

And when we pay attention, he says, we discover that. There is nothing that is not new. Everything is novel. So I can look at a scene that's absolutely familiar to me, like the desk in front of me, but I can say, God, I've really never noticed in the way the light falls here

and the way I've got this thing from 10 years ago that I've never touched or moved. David, equal men again. I can really pay attention to it and take in my desk in a different way. I can make things novel. Now, it's probably not as good as actually going out and experiencing meaningful novelty that really changes your life,

but you can certainly do it from the inside. Take that big guy. That was just a bagel. That's a big guy, you're talking to yourself. Yeah, my brain. That was just a bagel that I ate this morning, but my goodness. The flake of salt and the flake of pepper

it mixed into the everything with the cherry tomato on top of the cream cheese. Was like a divot, was like as sacred as synducing the super moon. Right. With like a astronaut chaser and like you know what? Moons are orange, cherry tomatoes are orange, they're both circles and I'm going to remember them both.

Enjoy your bagel and I'm going to go skydiving with my new pet koala that I'm going to adopt and and we'll let's let back in the art of death. Okay. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing by Sindunyanisambundan and edited by Pat Walters, was sound designed by Jeremy Bloom and mixing help from Ariane Wack. Special thanks to Joe Eidman, Nathan Peerboom, Kristen Lynn, Stacey Ryman, Ash Sanders, Saraya Shockley, Tasha Myers, Glenn Smith, Adam Aharoni, and Hussein Ishta. And also a very special thanks to Jay Menard for recording and editorial support. If you'd like a life calendar, I'm not sure why you would, but maybe you would. Actually, okay, if you listen to this piece, you might.

You can find them on Tim Urban's blog. It's called Wake But Why. Thanks for listening. Catch you in a week, which will be up to you. To either let pass you by quickly. Or slowly. Bye. Thanks for listening, catch you in a week, which will be up to you. To either lap past you by quickly. Or slowly. Bye.

Radio Lab was created by Chad Abumrad and is edited by Soren Wheeler, Lulu Miller and Lotta Fnasser are our co-hosts. Dylan Keath is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Brestler, Rachel Kusik, and Keti Foster Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sndu Nyanosambada, Matt Kilti, Annie McEwan, Alex Niesin, Sara Kari, Anna Rusk-Git Paz, Alyssa John Perry, Sarah Sambak, Aryan Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. With help from Timmy Broderick, our fact checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Greger, and Natalie

Middleton. Hi, this is Tamara from the Pasadena, California. Leadership support for Radio Lab Science Programming is provided by the Gordon and Betty Moore Foundation, Science Sandbox, Assignments Foundation Initiative, and the John Templeton Foundation. Back to my poster and another week done.