Radiolab - The Vanishing of Harry Pace: Episode 5

Episode Date: July 2, 2021

Roland Hayes and the Lost Generation.  Here’s the extraordinary story of Roland Hayes, another great (and largely forgotten) creator of new cosmologies. The Vanishing of Harry Pace was created and produced by Shima Oliaee and Jad Abumrad.  This series was produced in collaboration with author Kiese Laymon, scholar Imani Perry, writer Cord Jefferson, WQXR’s Terrance McKnight, and WNYC's Jami Floyd. Based on the book Black Swan Blues: the Hard Rise and Brutal Fall of America’s First Black Owned Record Label by Paul Slade. Featuring interviews with Pace's descendants and over forty musicians, historians, writers, and musicologists, all of whom grapple with Pace’s enduring legacy. This episode featured scenes from Christopher Brooks' and Robert Sims' biography, Roland Hayes: The Legacy of an American Tenor. Thank you to actor William Jackson Harper for helping us bring Berlin to life.  This episode featured the following music: Robert Sims Sings the Spirituals of Roland Hayes Bill Doggett's collection of Black Swan records  Black Swans: The First Recordings of Black Classical Music Performers  Du Bist Die Ruh by Roland Hayes  Were You There by Roland Hayes  Vesti La Giubba by Roland Hayes

Wait, you're listening to Radio Lab. From WNYC. Okay, I'm Chad Abelmerad here with. Shemolyai and this is the vanishing of Harry Pace, a miniseries on Radio Lab. So we finished our trilogy on the many lives of Harry. Hashton present. And we're going to keep expanding outward.

I know we call this series the vanishing of Harry Pace, but he was not the only one to be vanished. There are others like him who were similarly vanished, sometimes by their own design. Now, one of the things that has been really frustrating for us in reporting this series haunting even, is that our central guy... We don't have Harry's voice! No!

We don't have it. Harry got all of these other voices on records, like Ethel Waters, Trixie Smith... I mean, yeah, take Ethel as an example when you hear her voice. What? I come along in that era. I was working in nightclubs. Like when you hear her speak, it makes all the difference. You know her.

I could sing dance, talk and whistle, I make you laugh, I make you cry. But Harry's kind of lost to us. Yeah. So one of the things we did early on is we called every archive that we could find, every record collector asking, what do you got? What do you got? We were trying to find something. And along the way, that's what we met a dude that we did not expect to meet, a contemporary of Harry and his story. Yeah, it kind of became one of the most inspiring musical tales that I've ever heard.

It actually began with a misunderstanding on our part. We were actually hunting for Harry. It has a picture of the label. On the back, it has who's in it and the logo for Black Swan, I guess. Tim, can you say your name and your title? So we have it. My name is Tim Brooks. I'm a media historian. We've found a way to Tim because he's one of the few people

who have records from the Black Swan label. In fact, people told us you got to talk to this guy because he had just released a compilation called Black Swan. Do you want me to go get a copy of it? Yeah, we would love that. And these are all recordings from the Black Swan label, like the early years?

No, no, actually, this is called Black Swans with an S on it. Turned out the compilation was not what we thought. And it includes, for the first time, the Roland Hayes, the historic Roland Hayes recordings that were made in 1917, 18. Tim started telling us about this guy named Roland Hayes, the historic Roland Hayes recordings that were made in 1917, 18. Tim started telling us about this guy named Roland Hayes and these very old recordings that he'd hunted down with great difficulty.

And we were like, cool. It's not what we're looking for. Don't really want to go into this because this guy never recorded for the Black Swan label, but before we could redirect. I've got some of the actual records here. He pulled out this 100 year old 78. Like this. I've got some of the actual records here. He pulled out this hundred-year-old 78. Like this. I don't know, look at that.

You just start playing us stuff from this guy. I'm gonna fly the ice all down the hill. I'm gonna hold you while I keep on flying. So, so this is a guy named Rowan Hayes. What is his singing? Well, this is the clown scene in Taliachi. And it's Hallyanaapa, 1892. Very dramatic moment.

He's dressed in the clown outfit, but he's a tragic clown. And tragedy is all around yet he has to put on this face of happiness and laughs and so forth. So he proceeded to tell us about this guy, Roland Hayes, who at the turn of the 20th century loved opera, like really obscure opera. Oh, Kleina Deanjah by Wolf. Is that on your playlist?

How about Trotnetnik? No. No. Neknik. Warner Der Methmooth by Beethoven. And you know, it was fine. We were just kind of going with it. But then he pulled out this other record. He also does an acapella version of where you there, the spiritual, which is absolutely hair-reasing. What is were you there about? Were you there when they crucified my Lord? Were you there when they crucified? Sometimes it makes me want to tremble.

Were you there when they crucified my Lord? Could we find that recording of his? Oh yeah. His technique was, despite Vestilus Jirba that you just heard, was, despite Vestilus Jirba that you just heard, was to kind of under volume some songs. It's hard to describe, but the way he would sing was very intense, but it wasn't loud. It was not meant to overpower you. Were you there when they crucified my Lord? It is obviously a song about a huge hugely tragic and emotional event and To sing it not were you there with it, but to sing it so quietly and with no orchestra and no instruments and

Just with passion, but a controlled passion that was often how he performed You might if I I'm so curious to hear it now? Do you mind if I just put it on for she's presence? Sure. Oh it's very chilling. to live. Sometimes it causes me to tremble, tremble, tremble, all you there, when they crucified my Lord. You hear that? No, my door. You hear that? Oh my God. Power.

Gosh. You can see he had a technique that was just electrifying. Wow. That's powerful. Yeah, ethereal almost. Yeah. What I hear in there is somebody who's trying to communicate to an audience directly.

This is Terence Bignite, musician, classical music host of WQXR. He worked with us on this episode. You know, sometimes when you hear an old recording like that, the vibrato is faster or something about the pronunciation of a word suggests a time period. But that was, I mean, that was just in the center of, of timelessness. It's an eerie feeling to hear a voice from a hundred years ago. Sound like it could be singing to you now, at a rally or a church. And at that point, we were just like, wait, who is this guy?

So it's quite a story. It's quite a story actually. Well, Roland Hayes is, I call him the father of African American concert singers. What God is so high? What he accomplished was extraordinary. Christopher? Yes, exactly right. That's it. Oh, no, he's so high.

After Tim Rabbit hold us, we ended up calling these two guys, Christopher Brooks and Robert Sims. They wrote a biography of Roland Hayes. They won't make a start to Robert P. Ones die. Go on, Christopher Brooks and Robert Sims, they wrote a biography of Rollin' Hays. They won't meet starter Robert, you understand? Go on, Christopher. Well, Rollin' Hays' childhood is born in 1887, I believe. Georgia, specifically. Not too far from where Harry Pace was born.

He was essentially one generation beyond legalized enslavement. Apparently, his mother had been born as slave. That's Fanny, that's a mama. He was one of seven children, six boys and one one girl, and he lost four of his siblings in pretty quick succession. Do we know how? We don't know. But what we do know is that he was the main breadwinner of the family. Now apparently when he was a teen, his neighbor, white man, had a phonograph, and had a collection of classical recordings,

and of course, Caruso. Caruso was the name that people talked about. Caruso was the guy. And Rico Caruso, the greatest opera star in history by some accounts, he built the record industry in many ways, it was such a celebrity. Apparently, this neighbor played young Roland Hayes a Caruso record. And Hayesixed by it. Roland Hayes would write that when he heard Kuroso sing, the heavens opened up to him.

And the beauty of what could be done with the human voice, it overwhelmed him. That happened for me. No way. That happened for me. I was in school and I didn't know exactly. I knew I loved music. I knew that I wanted to be in music. But I didn't know exactly what it would look like until my glee club director gave me a ticket to go here, the Atlanta Symphony.

And Andre Watts was on the bill that night. A man when that dude walked out, started playing. The heavens opened up and the angels were black. Oh, wow! Anyhow, getting back to Roland, not too long after his caruso moment, he was at work. He had a job working in a foundry. You know what they do, metal and all that going Christopher. It was a paperweight foundry.

He was working at this factory that took raw steel and shaped it into fancy paper waste. And something quite dramatic happened at that foundry. They were, it was, the metal had to be melted and rolling haze gives accounts that he would wear these big, brogaine shoes, but you had to wear them loose. Because if the hot metal landed on them, you needed to get your feet out of it. Like, take them off very quickly. So on this particular day in 1903, Roland Hayes, he was in a conveyor belt.

Pouring hot metal into containers, and apparently he was standing too close to the belt. And his clothes were caught in this conveyor belt and it dragged him through this machinery three times. And they thought that Roland Hayes was dead. And when he arrived at home in a full body cast, his mother ran away out of the house because she thought that they were bringing home a corpse.

And that she had indeed lost another child. There was no nearby hospital that would keep a black man overnight. So Roland basically had to recover at home in this full body cast. But a soundingly he did recover. And this was just a few months after he encountered those Caruso records. And he thought his recovery was a sign.

He thought that God saved him for the purpose of being a great sinner and epiphany if you will and he cited his Survival as one of the several epiphanies that he would have over the course of his life. Wow. How did he talk about it? He believed that it was like The epiphany of the Apostle Paul And the New Testament Paul is on his way to Damascus. When suddenly, he struck blind. He believes he'll never get his sight back. But then, after three days, it returns. And from then on, he's a believer.

And he believed that this was his moment that he was supposed to come forth and and do this singing thing. Hays his story from then on is one of the most inspiring stories in lost sounds I think because boy he was one of those people that just knocked down walls. He dedicated himself to that field and of course everybody laughed at him. In African America, in that field, you got to be crazy. Well his mother said to him, hey, let's be practical about this.

White people don't want to hear their European airs coming out of a black face and black people might not be too keen on that either. There was this thought that you were selling out if you were playing the music of the oppressor music that was created on our backs. What are you thinking? But boy, the more you told him no, the more he was absolutely determined. And he... ...walked from the farm toward the north, because he knew the only chance he would ever have would be in the north. He made it as far as Nashville Nashville where Fisk University is located. Fisk University

was founded in 1866, a year after the Civil War ended. It's weird to boy study it actually. It was created for all the freed men of Nashville. Even though he didn't have a high school education, he managed to ingratiate himself into the student body at the school. The school was so underfunded that it relied on its acupelic wire to tour across the country and make money to keep college going. Roland joined them. And there was a teacher there who sort of adopted him and took him under her wing. He would study with her in the day and then at at nights, and on the weekend, he would sing in a quartet on the side.

Because Roland needed to make money. The teacher found out that he had been singing outside of school, and for some reason, she really didn't like that. She had been paying his tuition throughout his time at Fisk, and so when that came about, she withdrew it and said, now you have to leave. Kicked out of fist, Roland continues to travel north. Past Tennessee, through Virginia, D.C., Maryland. Then he made his way up to Boston.

He had no money still. He got some menial jobs. First of all, arriving in Boston, he auditioned for five voice teachers. Three of them said to him, hey, this is impossible. An African-American man can't have a concert career. Robert says he did eventually find a teacher, a white man. But this teacher who ended up loving Roland like a son would not allow Roland to take lessons in his studio.

Because if he did all of his white students would leave him. So he wanted Hayes to come to his home on the weekends and come in the back door. But Hayes, he kept promoting himself, doing scene wherever he could, gaining followers and people who believed in him. And in 1917, he couldn't get booked at any major venues because I wouldn't have him as black. So he finally scraped up enough money to rent Symphony Hall in Boston. We rented a whole hall?

With Orchistra. And how did he get people to go? Yeah, there's an interesting story behind that. Apparently, the first thing he did was appeal directly to some big donors like the Governor of Massachusetts wife. He went to the Governor's wife and she said, I'm not about to sign on something that's going to be a failure before it even starts. She says, no, I can't have my name associated. So what Roland Hayes does,

he gets a local telephone book and starts calling people. I just want to tell you about this new dynamic singer by the name of Roland Hayes, who will do a performance at Symphony Hall on so and so date. Apparently he did this for weeks on end. Just calling random numbers from the phone book. He paid for advertisements in the paper, paid to print his own tickets.

And all of his followers sold tickets for him around the city. Wow. Yeah, the insurance company where he worked, you know, everybody the president, everybody bought the tickets. And that strategy, according to him, worked. Because the entire facility was rented. because the entire facility was rented. And the concert was a huge success, even though we had to pay for it, and go under debt and everything.

But they still wouldn't hire him. I mean, the record company's Wood Record him. I told you, this guy was like a battery grab. Amazing. So he decided he was going to make his own records if Victor and Colomio would not record him. And he did. To make a recording was like a $300 deal. That's like $6,000 today. And he again raised buddy and paid to have custom recording spade essentially. How would he do that? How did he do it? Yeah, would he just go into the studio and pay for the space in a room?

Yeah, well, there were two record companies that ran the business. Then they owned the patents and one of them was Columbia. Columbia had a side business which was a personal recording service. And if you paid them enough, you could come into their studios, their technicians, and make a record. You know, for the price, you would get a couple of records. And if you wanted to pay more, they'd make more copies for you. But he raised enough money.

He went into the Columbia Studios. It was acoustic recording, but there were people who really knew how to do it well. And he had to hire the orchestra, the cost-next-error. And he made nine different recordings. He deliberately made different types of record, different types of repertoire. He wanted to do opera, like Veste L'Ajure, with a Giddisturret. He wanted to do some spiritual, so buy and buy and things like that. I'm going to play that as you talk.

He showed how he could be the equal in each of these different kinds of recordings of spirituals, the classical numbers, popular concert numbers, and he sold these by mail or by agents out around the country who would literally get a copy of the record from him in Boston, take it around from door to door and play it for local black families, middle-class black families, and say, here's one of our own on record. You'll never find this on the major labels and heard of Roland Hayes because he's famous in the black press and everything. This guy's not a one man record label.

Yeah, that's right. He lost a lot of money on it, but he didn't care because he wanted to get his voice out there. And then he got some support, especially in Boston and the Northeast. He was able to travel to Europe. You know, when he went overseas, they were, you know, hide your daughter. You know, this black man is coming, close down the windows, because he's dangerous. Somebody's going to be pregnant before he leaves. All that kind of nonsense.

Through some friends, Roland had hooked up a couple of recitals. And one of those friends, a religious leader, invited Roland Hayes to sing at a church service. For lent. Where Roland Hay sang, Where are you there? Were you there? Uh-oh. And they could see fine.

It made such an impression at the church service People were in tears Very unlike the British Unlike the British? Yes The next day Roland got the call That he would sing for the king and queen of England

Wow The story is he fainted from that news. Oh wow. He performed for the Queen, for the King, I guess, and his character got off. Good news, chariot to come and good news. Chariot's coming and good news. The chariot. He is literally barnstorming through Europe.

France, England, Czechoslovakia. Everywhere he goes, he is really tearing up, I mean, audiences, women of fainting. But then? He arrives in Germany. And that is a whole other situation entirely. That's after the break. And that is a whole other situation entirely. That's after the break. Science reporting on Radio Lab is supported in part by Science Sandbox, a Science Foundation

initiative dedicated to engaging everyone with the process of science. This is Carrie Klun from Lagrange, Illinois. Radio Lab is supported in part by the Alfred Peace Loan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.Sloan.org. This is the Vanishing of Harry Pace, mini series on Radio Lab.

I'm here with Shimo Lei. And that's Jada Bumrod. Today, a story about a contemporary of Harry Pace, Roland Hayes, who refused to be told that he could not sing opera, ends up singing for the king and queen of England, Barnes dorming his way across Europe. But then, to get back to the story,

he arrives in Germany. Yes. It's May 1924. Christopher, would you mind reading that passage from your book? We'll probably get an actor later to read it, but for now could we get it in your voice? Where do you want me to start? If you can start at page 120.

Oh, right. The Weimar Republic represented a common... The Weimar Republic presented a complex period in German history. Having suffered defeat at the hands of the Allied forces, Germany had also been stripped of its colonial possessions in Africa. The final humiliation, as far as the Germans were concerned, was the presence of Francophone Africans throughout the Reinland as a policing force, with the authority to arrest and detain. There was fear among the German population that the Africans and their Afro-German children would lead to the bastardization of the German race.

In the middle of all this, Rolenhe shows up and starts running ads in the local German newspapers about his concert. Which included a 6-inch headshot of him. The ad stated he would sing the leader of Beethoven, Schubert, Schumann, Brahms, Strauss, and Volv. Wow, so he was going full German. Well, Berlin now was different because Berlin is this bastion of high art. He is literally singing at the Beethoven style or Beethoven Hall in Berlin. Immediately, open letters start appearing in newspaper saying this concert is a sacrilege.

That the best they could hope for from a black man is to hear. Quote on Quote jazz or the cotton songs of Georgia. All very insulting. Yes. The night of the concert was tense. The night of the concert was tense. The night of the concert was tense, the Berlin House was filled to its thousand seat capacity. Backstage Roland braced himself for what he suspected would be an intractable audience. Unlike in previous performances where the custom was to dim the lights as the performers walked on stage, Roland.

Roland and Lawrence walked into near total darkness and took their respective positions in a single spotlight aimed at where the tinner was to stand, as if he were somehow a target. And when he walks out, he is booed and hissed. Booed and hissed by what would turn out to be the Nazi. The Nazis! Where the course of the minute, they could laugh and louder. The barrage of protest continued for close to ten minutes while Roland stood perfectly stood. The night

night night With his eyes closed. And he just stands there very upright with his eyes closed with his accompanist there. He felt a calm come over him as the audience continued his demonstration. In his mind he uttered his standard prayer while facing an audience before performance. God please brought out Roland Hayes. Lord brought out rolling haze so that they only see this. So that the people will see only this.

It just makes me want to shout. Because, because he's Lord, let your spirit come out and let it, and let it move the people. Gradually, the boy in hissing stops, everything goes silent and he doesn't even turn his gives a flight nod of his head to begin. Roll and stood with his eyes closed and his head upright. You are calm, the mild peace. You are longing and what stills it. I consecrate to you full of pleasure and heart.

Only in the final climactic section of the song did roll and give more volume to his otherwise pianissimo singing. The tabernacle of your eyes by your radiance alone is alone. All fillet, complete limbs total silence throughout the house. throughout the house. Only then did he slowly open his eyes. The spirit had done its work. Still stunned by what it had just experienced, the audience was jolted back into reality by the sound of a lone sustained clap, covered by a huge sparsely isolated crack, which abruptly turned into cheers. You're engaged to think smile of the knowledge, and as if to say to his doubting believers,

now what do you think of that? But I guess after you go through a machine a few times, you know? Took a lot of courage to be able to do that. Terrence, do you have any way of explaining it? I mean, just to stand up there by yourself, with all of those people booing and hissing you, and to still have that stillness, where does that come from? I would imagine when you're in that moment, you have to pull on something, pull from something.

I remember first doing concerts, hosting big concerts. I would always say, come on grandma, I'll be backstage and I would bring her out with me. And because I knew some of the things that they went through and lived through and were able to come out on the other side of when I get up into a situation where I don't exactly know what's gonna happen That's where that kind of courage comes from yeah, all my ancestors up here with me

You all move back so I can get up to this microphone and and speak They could have thrown anything at him while he's standing on that stage But he just closed his eyes and went to a place probably a place that his mother took him as a child, a deep place of faith. And he came out victorious, not only for himself, before so many people that looked like him. He was a shining example for the possibilities of America. It's interesting. When he came back to the US, having all this acclaim in Europe,

then they would hire him. That qualified him finally. And he was the first black artist to be recorded by labels. He was very picky though. He didn't want to record unless they paid him a lot of money. Oh, damn right. After with what he's gone through. But he could be a tough customer.

Tim says even when the white-owned labels wanted to record him. He listened to the playbacks of these recordings. He wasn't satisfied with them. And he said, I don't want the mischewed. And he said, well, we won't pay you. And he said, I don't care. Well, there was a recording contract that he had with a British recording company where he had recorded, gorgeously.

But because the deal wasn't a good deal financially, he cut the masters. Like the original recording. Tooks a large pair of shears and cut them in two. He broke the masters. He was such a purist that he wasn't going to do anything that didn't meet his standards and anything for which he wasn't properly paid. Which is one of the reasons we don't have much film of him because others, Paul Robeson and people like that,

made a lot of films later on, especially when sound came in, and Hayes said, only if you pay me a huge amount of money. I'm really like him. I find it interesting that he was so self-possessed that he, in a way, possessed himself out of memory. It's like he vanished himself, sort of like Harry, but for a different reason. And also, I think, Chad, that black people had worked for so little, for free, for so long,

that they were so determined not to allow somebody to make money off of their backs anymore. By my estimation, and I've done really the only study of this part of his career, he was able to press maybe 500 copies of each of these. Tim is referring to a set of recordings which were some of the only ones that still exist from his prime. Because there are so few copies made of them, binding these records, they're very rare when they come up for auction, they're very expensive, but over the years I've been able to assemble most of them, probably the largest collection of them. It's only nine total. One nobody's ever found, the other aid of God, either in the original or a tape somebody sent me.

As we were talking with Tim about how hard he has had to work to find Roland's records, I kept thinking about that idea of Roland Hayes intentionally cutting the masters, not allowing recordings of himself to get out into the future to people like Tim, people like us. Unless he got paid. And all of that took on a whole new meaning when we ended up speaking to one of Tim's colleagues, a guy that you also heard in episode one. A Bill Dogget.

I am an African American performing arts historian, early sound archivist. Bill Doggett, like him, is a historian, an educator, and a record collector. He has a pretty large collection of Black Swan records, actually the sixth largest in the world, according to his estimation. This is Revolving Hughes at the Donifer career. And he shares them online. This is from YouTube Videos. The Black Swan Label.

This is the very first recording by an African American soprano. Let's take a look. In talking with Bill. I'm grateful I have the collection and I've amassed, but there are no African Americans in the field. The question actually came up. Why, as we were looking for record collectors, did the field seem to be overwhelmingly white? Like Bill was the first black collector we found.

As an African American specialist in this world, what I have seen is the legacy of ownership, the idea of ownership and of cultural appropriation by white male collectors who have come to fetishize black men who's not black women, not the black women who sing blues, but the black men who recorded at the dawn of the race records. He told us about this one example. The most famous white collector in black blues music, famously, I think it's almost been in 2014, 15, paid $16,000 for this one, 78 RPM record. Actually, when we checked eBay,

the final price was $37,000 for one record. This is a record of a black man singing in the 1920s who not only himself, his family, but his entire ancestors had never seen 16,000 dollars at home. But yet a white man who has an infantess of amount of money, he himself and others have created this frenzy, this tornado of high pricing that is reminiscent for me of a slave auction where how much can I get for this black man? That is wow. This flopped a lot of bid 14,000.

No, I will bid 15. But this is a black man's music, a black man's record. He got $25 or $30 for the session. But now, this white guy owns you. It's conflicted. That thought from Bill Dogget definitely cast things in a different light. There are recordings of Roland Hayes that exist, of him later in his career, and we played you some. But everything we played you was something that he defined on his own terms. And everything that wasn't, he snapped in half with metal shears.

After that concert in Germany, Roland went back to Georgia. To that Georgia plantation where his mother had once been a slave, and he bought the whole property right out from under the man who had once owned his mother and grandfather. That guy was still living there on land that was now Rollins, and out of mercy, Rollin let him stay there until he died. One last thing, Robert Sims, who with Christopher Brooks wrote the biography of Rollin Hayes, he got in touch with Rollin's daughter, Africa Hayes, and she searched through some boxes in her house

and found a recording of her father speaking. This is the only audio that we know of where Roland is simply speaking. I wonder if people generally are aware of their serious and intensely spiritual nature. My people comforting the oppressed and envisioning hope to the future, both in this world and the next, through them, the Spirit of God and the vision of a better world became a unifying and living force. The hope of freedom was a source of deep-seated spiritual strength for my people and their heart's murmur when it was not expedient for their lips to speak it.

One cannot imprison the soul, nor can adversity crush the Spirit in man. So there you go. The story of Roland Hayes. Next week we have our final episode. Until then, the Vanishing of Harry Pace was created by a Jedi B'n Rod and Shima Uliai and is presented as a collaboration between Awesome Audio, radio lab and radio diaries. The series is based on the book Black Swan Blues, The Hard Rise and Brutal Fall of America's first Black-owned record label by Paul Slade. Our editorial advisors are Kasey Laman, Imani Perry, Kord Jefferson and Terence Bidnight.

Jamie Floyd is our consulting producer. Our fact checker is Natalie Mead. Series Artwork was created by Katia Herrera. A big thank you to actor William Jackson Harper for lending his voice to Christopher and Roberts' biography, Roland Hayes, the legacy of an American tenor. And thanks also to the clappers and the boers who helped us bring that Berlin scene to life, Lillian Zoo, Eli Cohen, Theodora Custlin, Sarah Sandbach, Andrew Golis, and Maryann Nesdale. Where you there, when they'd my Lord?

In this episode, we also featured music from Robert Simms, The Spirituals of Roland Hayes, also Tim Brook, CD, Black Swans, within us, and Bill Dawgett's collection from his YouTube channel. You can find a link to all of those, as well as the other Roland Hayes songs we used, at radialab.org slash Harry Pace. And I guess that's it. Thanks for listening. One more episode coming at you in about a week. Radio Lab was created by Jad Abumrod and is edited by Soren Wheeler. Lulumiller and Latif Nasir are our co-host. Susie Electrenberg is our executive producer. Dylan Keefe is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy

Bloom, Becca Bressler, Rachel Kusik, David Gabel, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindo Nyanasambandum, Met Kilti, Annie McEwen, Alex Niesen, Zara Kari, Aryan Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster. With help from Sarah Sandbach, Kareen Lyong, and Candice Wong, our fact checkers are Diane Kelly and Emily Krieger. with help from Sarah Sandbach, Kareen Lyong, and Candice Wong. Our fact checkers are Diane Kelly and Emily Krieger.