Radiolab - Toy Soldiers

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey, it's a lot of one quick thing I wanted to say before we get going today. Despite everything that has been in the news, despite the fact that what's happening in Israel, Palestine is on everyone's mind, including everyone on our staff, our episode today is not about that. But we did want to do one thing. We just wanted to shout out at the top that in situations like this one, where things are changing so quickly when emotions are so heated, when good information is so hard to come by, the podcast we listen to is on the media.

Starting point is 00:00:36 They put out an episode last week called The Fog of War. It's really solid journalism. For those who want to hear more about what's happening, take a listen there. That's it. That's all we want to say. And let's get on with the show. Wait, you're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From W and Y. See? See? Radio from W and Y. To see! To see! Yeah.

Starting point is 00:01:05 Hey, I'm LutthifNaster. This is RadioLab. Today, we're going to talk about war. And not the one that is front and center in the news right now, the, you know, horrible things that have been happening in Israel and Palestine. Instead, we're going to talk about the other war that has been in the headlines. The story comes to us from producer Simon Adler. Yeah, so I wanna talk about the war in Ukraine.

Starting point is 00:01:31 Okay, and quick note, this story contains audio of combat that may not be suitable for our younger or more sensitive listeners. Have you been following it very closely? I feel like I was at the beginning, and then I kind of, I mean, not so closely lately. Right. And I don't think you're alone.

Starting point is 00:01:49 Right. But it is still obviously, you know, a live conflict, one that has been going on for over a year and a half now, which I don't think anybody really expected. I mean, by all paper statistics, the Russians should have just walked over the Ukrainians. A few days or maybe a few weeks. But people like Eric B. Vallard here, Digital Military Asteroid for the US Army, Center of Military History, here in Washington, DC. Have been watching the war in Ukraine super closely, and he says,

Starting point is 00:02:18 the startling thing is that unlike anywhere in human history, you can literally watch this one play out step by step almost in real time. Yes. Honestly, a lot of it really is YouTube. YouTube. Okay. There's probably two dozen channels

Starting point is 00:02:39 that I subscribe to and watch on a regular basis. But just 20 minutes of watching you know we'll really kind of blow your mind because these videos are raw footage in most cases shot by a GoPro on a Ukrainian soldier. First person views of things like... Infantry's advancing through miles and miles of trenches. Pretty pretty, but oh, and you know... Drowing attacks. A lot of these are actually made by the Ukrainian army.

Starting point is 00:03:22 Some of them have millions of views. Really? And there's no way around it. Like they are disturbing to watch. Yeah, I mean, people are getting killed. They're just not the coy about that. I am going to play you some of these videos. Ooh.

Starting point is 00:03:35 And well, the corpses in them are blurred out. They're awful. They're disturbing. They capture the war. But Eric says, you know, that's why they're so important, that's why they're so powerful because they are this crazy window into how Ukraine is reshaping both the tactical and emotional reality of how we wage war. So this is a video reported from the front line by Ukrainian War Corps

Starting point is 00:04:08 Spammed Anna Kalyusna. It opens up with her standing in what looks like sort of an old school's basement. It's a makeshift bunker and she says looking at the camera. We'll be watching the battle from here. Yes, yes, yes, I understand. I'm going to check the infantry, what's going on. At which point, camera cuts to these three jankily hooked up flat screen TVs. Oh, yes, yes, I understand.

Starting point is 00:04:36 I'm not going to come. Each showing a different live feed from a different drone. And now, like, I think when we say drone, what comes to mind is like a predator drone, the one that's like, that's the one I'm thinking of. Big like cost millions of dollars, rain, hellfire missiles down, controlled from thousands of miles away.

Starting point is 00:04:57 Yeah, like somebody in a basement in Las Vegas or something, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, yeah. Those are not the drones we're talking about. He's here in Ukraine. No, no, not at all. These drones, he, right. Yeah, those are not the drones we're talking about. He's here in Ukraine. No, no, not at all. These drones, he says, are cheap, cost just like a couple hundred dollars.

Starting point is 00:05:11 He's for commercial photography. Oh, toy drones. Yeah, basically. But at this point in the war, Ukraine is sending at least 10,000 of these drones up into the sky. Each month, Jesus. Right. So this is the scale what we're talking about And well, you know predator drones fly up at like 30,000 feet and are controlled from thousands of miles away

Starting point is 00:05:37 Tracking down and sending back grainy video of squiggly little heat signatures on black and white monitors a rainy video of squiggly little heat signatures on black and white monitors. These commercial drones, they hover at just like 200 feet, providing Ukrainian soldiers a steady, high definition view of the battle lines right in front of them. Sometimes just a hundred yards away. And some of these drones are literally,

Starting point is 00:05:59 they will fit in the palm in your hand. So you can just, you know, bring this out of your pocket, throw it up in the air. збережувалися в цьому виску. Такі можуть, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви, ви, ви, ви можете, ви, ви, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви, ви можете, ви можете, ви можете, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви, ви. That's on a call, Yusna, the war correspondent who made that video talking to me with the help of interpreter Yulia. In this video of hers, you can see what these drones allow the Ukrainians to do. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat.

Starting point is 00:06:48 I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat.

Starting point is 00:06:56 I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat.

Starting point is 00:07:04 I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. I eat. this trailer and there you see these hidden advancing Russian troops. And one of the soldiers in the bunker radios to the troops in the field saying, I see where the Russians are, they're advancing on you take up your position now. And then just a moment later, they can see on the screen and hear on the radio a firefight break out and I know, I know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox.

Starting point is 00:07:49 You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox.

Starting point is 00:07:57 You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. You know Shrispa Balox. going on. They start radioing in their exact coordinates to a Ukrainian artillery position,

Starting point is 00:08:08 you know, somewhere in the rear. You know the guys with the big, big guns. Saying who wants, who wants it. And then, all right, that's mine, Roger, you know, I got it. And it's locked in. And the screen starts lighting up with these. Little puffs with white smoke, boom, boom, boom, boom. As the artillery hits, throwing shrapnel. But the artillery is a little bit off target. And so... The drone, posteriaya,

Starting point is 00:08:45 the drones are helped by just our artillery. Two more shells to the Serpania. The guys in the bunker radio the artillery and say, 302,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000, Until... Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! Yes! is just unbelievable, unbelievable. And I mean, this is Eric's whole point about why this war feels different and why it's gone on longer than anybody expected. Yes, one of the reasons you Ukrainians have done so well is even though they've been outnumbered and outgunned for most of the war,

Starting point is 00:09:40 their ability to know what the Russians were doing, that's made all the difference. And oddly enough, this difference, it began with regular Ukrainian people, civilians. So, back up to 2014, 2015. Hold on a second. Sorry about that. No problem.

Starting point is 00:10:01 One, two, three. So, what happened in 2014 and 2015 was basically Ukraine lost the Crimea, Eastern Donbass and Lugansk regions. Russia, as we should recall, crashed across the Russia, Ukraine border. Armored Russian vehicles burst through the wall of Crimea's Belbek base today. And just said this land is ours now. And there's nothing you can do about it. So it became clear that the Ukrainian military wasn't quite ready and had capability gaps,

Starting point is 00:10:32 such as not enough aerial coverage. And so, according to military analyst Samuel Bendett there, Ukrainian private sector and Ukrainian volunteer technical communities stepped up. People started manufacturing short-range drones basically in their garages and their homes on their free time. Thinking. Here's a great resource that we can afford to keep an eye on the Russians. And the Ukrainian government and its various ministries readily embraced this volunteer effort, holding meetups and competitions. Just saying, you know, let a thousand flowers bloom. Just like go out, innovate, try stuff. More recently, these volunteers have been converting these commercial drones

Starting point is 00:11:12 into essentially mini bombers by 3D printing, special equipment that allows soldiers to basically strap on a grenade. Yeah, they're like these little claws that when the operator clicks a button, opens up, releasing the grenade. So if the Russians leave the hatch of a vehicle open, drop it right in there. Oh, there's a hole, a hole, a hole, a hole. So there's actual hunter killer drones.

Starting point is 00:11:37 Bromming of the battlefield right now, targeting individual Russians. The crane says it's ramping up the homegrown production of drones. The biggest drone attack yet inside Russia. We're probably going to be able to survive over the Russians with drones. Again, Anna Kalyusna. Last one, Vone. I guess. I felt like our military found a way to outwit Russians.

Starting point is 00:12:15 But Anna says, there is only one problem. Moscow is catching up in the drone race by building up arsenals of Russia's Tert Notedis. Ukrainian forces say Moscow is ramping at its use of drones. And adapted. Today, Russia flies a large number of these drones, kamikaze drones striking a residential area in Kiev on Monday, raining fire on Ukrainian civilian military targets.

Starting point is 00:12:44 And you know, not one to be left out, the US has taken note as well. One of the big early takeaways, which I know is resonating with the Army, is that even you know, back in Iraq and Afghanistan, the command center is a bunch of tents. Well, you know, all the computers are in generators and radar arrays. And these temporary stationary bases were where they directed the battles from. But now today, that's not gonna cut it. You cannot afford the luxury of being in one place

Starting point is 00:13:14 and setting up your tents and stuff. No, you're just gonna get killed. So suddenly you have to figure out a way to be on the move while the battle is going. The US military has also indicated that it wants these drones in its arsenal. I mean, earlier this year, the Pentagon came out and said that they need to invest more money in equipment like this, in less expensive, easier to build stuff. And so it does appear that we're only going to be seeing more and more of these drones, more and more of this footage,

Starting point is 00:13:48 and at like a closer and closer or more intimate level. I mean Eric pointed me to this other video that shows you this first person view of these Ukrainian guys just covered in mud, 8K47s in hand, fighting their way to this sharp turn in a trench. They're crouched down leaning up against this black dirt wall that's maybe three feet high with their guns drawn and suddenly. She's my ground, but it is fine with you. You hear this voice coming through a radio and what it is is... A drone operator talking to the Ukrainians and the trench.

Starting point is 00:14:37 Because through the drone hovering just right above them, this operator, he's looking around the corner. He says there's a Russian sitting 20 meters in front of you. Jesus. In a hole. Throw a grenade in that direction and I'll adjust you. So these hands pull out a grenade, pull the pin and hook it over the mud wall. Now because it landed way over the wall, the soldiers can't see the explosion, they don't know what's happened. But then almost immediately, drone operator radios back down. What the fuck is that? That's just a sprawl. It says, okay, you threw it five meters too far, throw it again. Goose, goose. We're going to throw it again. Got him.

Starting point is 00:16:03 And the guys keep moving. Now in this case, we're watching from the soldier's point of view. But again, what they've done is they've pixelated or fuzzed out the dead bodies. And so watching it feels both sanitized and brutal at the same time. But you know, these drone operators and soldiers like, obviously they're seeing the real thing. All the time in high definition, they can see their enemy and what's happening to them. Often just around the corner or, yeah, cowering in a trench. And, in fact, one of the things Eric told me was that these drones, they are not just changing how war is fought, but they are not just changing how wars fought,

Starting point is 00:16:45 but they are changing how the folks fighting are experiencing it. In previous wars, you rarely saw the enemy, you know, and tell sort of the moment of decision. And in the 20th century, as weapons became deadlier, you often didn't even see the enemy at all. Like if you look at the footage, for example, the Americans took in the Pacific and World War II, there are literally only two or three examples that I can think of, where a combat cameraman actually caught sight of Japanese soldiers in action, right? But you know, there's new kind of fighting, this kind of war where you can see so much of your anime or XS. It's having this strange unintended consequence.

Starting point is 00:17:33 And we'll get to that right after a quick break. Hey, I'm Lative Nasser. This is Radio Lab. We're back with Simon Adler, who's been telling a story of just how crystal clear everyone involved can see the battlefield in the war in Ukraine. Right. And just to pick things back up with Eric, he says it's not just the clarity or the intimacy, but the fact that these guys are watching each other day after day after day that may be most powerful here.

Starting point is 00:18:25 You know, these drone operators are going up so often. They get to the point where, in some cases, they're able to distinguish between, oh, that's the guy who has the red boots, or that's the guy who leaves his trash outside of his dugout. So they're seeing the Russians as they're living. They're seeing them as they're cooking food and moving supplies and washing clothes and tending to wounded and all the other sort of pedestrian things that people still have to do in wartime. He says oddly, this new technology is almost making war like it used to be,

Starting point is 00:19:12 like back in revolutionary war days when you actually had to look your enemy in the eye. Especially those operators who were dropping grenades and other devices on Russian soldiers. You know, these Russian soldiers often, they'll hear the sound of the drone, they will look up. So they will be looking up at the operator

Starting point is 00:19:34 through the camera. So they can see the facial expressions of the Russian soldiers as the operator hits the button to drop the grenade on them. And it's given them a perspective that few other soldiers, I think, have had. Now, I asked Anakali Usna about Aldis. I wonder if any of the soldiers you've spoken to about whether having to look at the enemy so often. If that has changed their perspective on the enemy,

Starting point is 00:20:13 and her response was emphatically, no. She heard very few times when Ukrainians for a sympathetic to Russians. Дуже мало розівчула. Вони є великий час в Україні для симпатетиків, до Росіян, по одній просій причині. Якщо ми будемо співчувати Росіяном. І, в такій кількості, в якій вони вбивали, якщо ми збивали в Україні, Росіянів will kill all of us. Russians will kill all of us, or deserve. You know, the Ukrainians absolutely hate these folks that they see rightly, you know, as invaders,

Starting point is 00:20:50 who in some cases have committed atrocities and, you know, destroyed their homes. But that is not the whole story. Right. Because if I can jump in there, because it seems like your argument throughout all this has been, these drones have given us this incredible level of visibility right and that has made it a lot easier to find people and therefore kill them right but that with more visibility maybe more humanity comes through as well right does seeing the war on a more human level person people to the effects of war and then think of it more like oh, well, that's just kind of a video game or maybe inspire more sympathy

Starting point is 00:21:34 That's an open question and with that in mind Eric said he wanted to show me one final video. I've I've pulled it up here Yeah, let me see here. Let me make sure that we've got, we're looking at the same thing. Yeah. Okay, here we go. You want to just set the scene a little bit? What is this video? Where is it from? Yeah. This is a video from a Ukrainian position that the Russians have been trying to seize for weeks if not months. And it's from the point of view of a Ukrainian drone up above watching all this, you know, unfold.

Starting point is 00:22:12 As the video starts, the drone is sort of scanning the terrain below. It's shellpock bleak, you know, battle blasted. And then it starts zooming in on this, sort of narrow bands of trees. And there you see 12 or 15 Russian soldiers huddled down in this tree line. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Now these Russian soldiers who were in the trees, some are huddled in holes. Others are hugging up against trees. And

Starting point is 00:22:42 there are a whole bunch of trouble. Don't know what to do about it, because having seen the previous video, you should know what's coming. You know the stone is looking at these Russian soldiers, is radying in their coordinates. And so basically, it's only a matter of time before the big stuff, these 155 millimeter howitzer out. So the anticipation is almost palpable because, and then boom, there you go. Yeah, that's 155 millimeter. It's a massive, massive explosion of white smoke covering like 50 meter radius.

Starting point is 00:23:23 And as the smoke slowly clears its carnage. In the video you can see these pixelated blobs covering what are dead Russian soldiers. But you can also see that there's this one Russian guy still alive, still moving. Yeah. The Russian soldier gets up, takes off his AK-47 rifle, puts it down, or sort of throws it down, then takes off his hat, or it's covering. It's not even a helmet.

Starting point is 00:23:57 It's just like a cap. And then he crosses himself multiple times. He's praying. He's praying over a dead comrade. And then he goes to this comrade. Ben's down and reaches into the guy's coat pocket. Collecting personal effects, you know, possibly, you know, if it was a letter of photo to send back. And then he looks at the sky. Did you see that? Yeah. He took something from the body. He looks at the sky almost like he's screaming at

Starting point is 00:24:37 God. Now the Ukrainians are seeing this. so he's dead to rights if the Ukrainians want to kill him. He's right in the blasphemy, but yet they are holding their fire. They are letting this guy grieve for his com ad, and they do not shoot at him. ... One more thought before we go, because the other question lurking here is, how much longer will humans be the ones deciding to pull the trigger or not? I was just talking with a tired Major General Patrick Donahoe about this, and he's like, the things that keeps me up at night is imagining uh a swarm attack. Not just one drone flying around the culprinades but you like you've seen this like uh in some places where they have these drone led displays right where the drones fly and create different creatures. Yeah they're like drone firework shows. Yeah, giant drone firework shows.

Starting point is 00:26:42 Yeah, there's like drone firework shows. Yeah, a giant drone firework shows. Well, now imagine that. And there's Swarman on you like a bunch of angry hornets. And one step beyond that is what about these things have AI on a cheap little memory stick inside and has all the information they need? What then? Right.

Starting point is 00:27:05 When how far out do you think that is, if you were a betting man? Given how many AI tools were already used, once more a military analyst, Samuel Bendett. For data analysis, for image recognition, for speech recognition, for deciphering of communications, to do target tracking, and given the fact that Ukrainians really want a drone advantage, we're probably going to see some element, some iteration of that.

Starting point is 00:27:31 This year, or maybe even next year, if the war continues into 2024. In fact, there are now reports they've already been used. So I think in the near future they will have a very, very significant impact on how all forces fight. This story was reported and produced by Simon Adler with original music throughout by Simon Adler, additional sound design by Jeremy Bloom, fact-checking by Natalie Middleton, and edited by Becca Bressler. Special thanks to Anna Kaliusna and her team for capturing that footage, Yulia Tari Suk for all her help with anything related to the Ukrainian language, and thanks as well to Hana Rochelle for helping

Starting point is 00:28:54 us understand the history of camouflage. And thank you to you for listening. Let's get you next time. Radio Lab was created by Chad Abumad and is edited by Soren Wheeler, Lulu Miller and Vlatov Nasir are our co-hosts. Dylan Keith is our director of sound design. Our staff includes Simon Adler, Jeremy Bloom, Becca Bressler, Aketty Foster Keys, W. Harry Fortuna, David Gable, Maria Paz Gutierrez, Sindu Nyanasambadam, Matt Kilti, Annie McEwan, Alex Nisen,

Starting point is 00:29:28 Alyssa John Perry, Saurakare, Sarasambak, Aryan Wack, Pat Walters, and Molly Webster, with help from Timmy Brotter. Our fact-checkers are Diane Kelly, Emily Krieger, and Natalie Middleton. family, Krieger, and Natalie Middleton. and the John Templeton Foundation. Conditional support for Radio Lab was provided by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation.

Radiolab - Toy Soldiers

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