Radiolab - What's Left When You're Right?

Episode Date: September 5, 2019

More often than not, a fight is just a fight... Someone wins, someone loses. But this hour, we have a series of face-offs that shine a light on the human condition, the benefit of coming at something from a different side, and the price of being right. Special thanks to Mark Dresser for the use of his music.  

A celebration of adverbs. Hello. Yeah. Hey. Hi. So it's Golden Balls. Yes, sir. We're going to roll back the clock a tiny bit and play you something that we really like.

Like, I don't know. Of all of the stage's work we ever did, that night at the Brooklyn Academy of Music with those, all those people. God. You know, having you and I have been through some highs and some definite lows on stages. And I think that was. was the highest high. I think that was the highest. I really do. And it had nothing to do with us, by the way. It was just that the clips we were playing on the video screen were so good. They were good. So good. Maybe I should just sort of explain what we were talking about. So we were on stage a couple years ago at the Brooklyn Academy of music. We were playing these clips from a TV show called Golden Balls. And each clip consisted of two people in a moral faceoff. And the people in the audience watching were just losing.

Because there was a section where you asked people to vote and they had to vote with their phones and we had this weird receiver that was built. It was on the stage that was going to receive this information and then we were going to then display it. I just remember a whole bunch of people waving their phones and shouting. Anyhow, after that live show, we ended up doing a radio version of that story. And then based on that radio piece, we did two other segments that sort of kind of but not quite connected to that first one. So we're just going to play the whole show. This is three steps. Zig, Zag, and Zig again.

It seems to be a, well... Let's just play the piece. Okay. Wait, you're listening. Okay. All right. Okay. All right.

You're listening to Radio Lab. Radio Lab. From... W-N-Y-S. See? See? Yeah. Okay.

This is Andy Rowe. So I've got... Here, you can hear it rattling because it's falling apart. He's a TV producer in London, and in his office where we reached him, he's got these very special metal balls. This is the original prototype of a golden ball. It's lovely and shiny. It's very light.

Each one's the size of maybe an orange or a tangerine or a tennis ball, painted gold. And it makes a very satisfying clunk when it closes. And that clunk, that is the sound of betrayal. Because Andy has used these balls to bring. bring out the worst in people to show how ugly and conniving we can be, but also how wonderful. And if you think you know about all that, then you could win big on golden balls. Okay, so we're talking about a game show called, of course. Golden Bulls.

Andy was one of the executive producers, did pretty well. We were really, really proud of Golden Balls. Ran for three years in the UK. Nearly 300 episodes in quite a short space of time in the show. We thought it was such fun. And it is fun, because in many ways it is just in really. normal game show, but I would argue there is more going on here. In fact, I'm about to argue that because there is a moment in one of those 300 episodes,

one moment that I just cannot shake. Because you remember the first time I showed you this clip. I certainly do. I was totally, totally, totally thrown by it. Because what's about to happen is that two guys with totally different moral philosophies are about to go, yes, with some fascinating results. And this story, in fact, inspired the whole show. It did.

Today. Three different smackdowns, all that somehow smack down, not in the way that you would expect. Different people, different dreams, different worldviews. All going, kapal. And we're calling the show. What's left when you're right. Which is... Genius.

You'll find that out later. It will ultimately make sense. Perfect sense, I think. Yeah. For now, can we get the golden balls happening? Yeah. All I can remember was that... All right, so before we get to the moment that I want to talk about,

we kind of have to walk a few paces to sort of lay the foundation, which is that we have to explain the rules of this game, which are... You cannot describe golden balls in a sentence to anybody. It makes no sense whatsoever. But I will try and simplify. So basically there are all these early rounds where people are winning money, losing money, cheating each other, lying. strategizing, voting one another off the show.

I'm going to skip all that because it is in the last five minutes. All hell breaks loose. And it's that classic shout at the telly moment where you're sitting at home going, I can't believe what that guy just did. I can't believe he just did that. Because basically the whole game culminates with a face-off. You now face a very straightforward choice. Two players sit on opposite sides of a table with this host between them.

Yeah, Jasper Karas is naming. A man whose head is as shiny and smooth as a golden ball itself. I know. I just edited in someone laughing at my own joke. That just happened. In any case, when you get to this moment at the end of the game. Where there's two people facing each other, in the spotlight, it's all gone quiet. In that moment, their hearts are racing. Because they've got to make this key choice, which is not just about money. Although there is money on the line, of course.

It is a choice that will reveal who they really are. Who we all are. Okay. Humanity's soul will be the line. laid bare. This may be true, but why don't we just lay out the rules themselves? Sorry. Got a little carried away. No, there's some... All right, so in the final round, each of the contestants get two

golden balls. And they are the most important golden balls of the game. One ball says split. You each have a golden ball with the word split written inside. The other ball says steel. You both have a ball with the word steel written inside.

Now, split, like say you and I are playing, right? If I choose the split What I'm really saying is that this jackpot, whatever it is, say it's 3,200 pounds sterling. Okay? Yeah. I'm saying, I want to split it with you. Let's just split it in half. 50-50, even Stephen.

I'm a good guy. Now, if you also choose split, then we split it. You get half, I get half, everybody's happy. The feeling of kind of joy that everybody had when it was a split was fantastic. You're both going home with one. 1,600 each. Okay, so that's one outcome. It's one of four outcomes, I believe.

Because obviously there are other ways this could go, because one or both of the contestants can choose steel. And what steel basically says is, forget sharing, I want to take the whole thing for myself. And if we both decide that... If you both choose the steel ball... We both screw each other, and it cancels out. You leave today's game with what you came with.

Nothing. Nobody gets anything. Nothing. I like that way he says nothing. Nothing. With a little bit of contempt. Deservedly. Yes.

Two greedy people deserve nothing? Yeah. Nothing. Except each other, which equals nothing. Right. So if we both decide to split, it is mutually good. If we both decide to steal, it is mutually bad. Now, where things get thorny is it say you got a mismatch.

Like one person chooses split, the other person chooses steal. Now, in that scenario, the person who chose split, the nice guy or gal, gets nothing. thing, whereas the person who chose steal the conniving duplicitous bastard takes everything. So you, if you steal, I mean, other person is kind, then you walk away with the money. Yeah. I mean, by the way, this is the classic prisoner's dilemma from game theory, which some people may recognize. But the basic idea is that there is an incentive to share, because if you split, you split, each person takes half. But there is also an incentive to lie. Because if I can convince you to share the money

And I turn around and shaft you Well, then I get more money that way And the best part about this game For our purposes Is that before the contestants make a choice Jasper the host gets them to talk to each other About what they're going to do Okay, before I ask you to choose

I think you have some talking to do to each other All right, so watch this one You got a young blonde girl Facing off with a larger gentleman With a mustache older Yep And the jackpot is 100,000 pounds. Stephen, I just thought they weren't puppy dog tears and they were real tears and you were genuinely going to split that.

I am going to split this. 50,000. I'm just, it's unbelievable. 50,000. She's crying at this point. She's kind of adorable. I like her. She's like an innocent. If I stole off you, every single person of there would run over here and lynch me. There was no way I could, I mean, everyone who knew me would just be disgusted if I stole. See how he's gripping his legs? He's up to something. Please. I can look you in the... Sarah, I can look you straight in the eye and tell you, I am going to split.

I swear, don't you? I am going to split. Okay. This is serious money. Sarah, Steve, choose either the split or the steel ball now. Hold it up. We're going on with 50 grand each.

I promise you that. Moment of truth. Beecho split. But she chose steel. The nice girl was a thief. The nice girl was bad. Every time I see this, it totally breaks my heart. Because a guy just falls onto the desk.

He's got his head and his hands. He's just destroyed. Stephen, I'm so sorry. Commiserations. You've lost. Look at her. She's looking away. She can't look at him.

He's fallen into a slump on the table. It's just awful. It's evil, isn't it? It's such a good little game. And here's the thing. If you analyze all the outcomes, which social scientists have done, what you see is that a majority of the time, something like what I just showed you happens.

People get up there and they're like, I swear, I am a good person. Over and over, they say, I am not the kind of person that's going to cheat you. And then they do it. They stab them in the back. And these are grandmas, policemen. And here's my theory. It's not that they're mean people. It's that they don't want to be that guy slumped on the table.

They don't want to be the sucker. The fear of being the sucker far overwhelms the desire to do good to their fellow contestants. There's something wrong with this program. The obvious thing to do is to share. You manage to wheedle your way into the approximate possession of a fortune, and all you have to do is agree to split it. But what if you don't trust the person across the table from you? Would you still share it? Well, that's interesting.

Yeah. Let's suppose I happen to be. I'm introduced to a person named Snidley Whiplier. and he has an enormous oiled mustache and he's wearing a cape and he has this habit of rubbing his hands malevolently. And his eyes are twitching.

And his eyes are twitching. So I'm sitting opposite here and I'm waiting to share with this guy. See, it's in a situation like that. That's when it's a real test. That's interesting. So what do you do if you don't want to be a sucker and you're not sure you can trust the person across the table? There's no good answer to that.

But then? Hi. Hi. Is this Nick? It is. This brings us to a sucker. the moment in question, we ran into this guy. My name's Nick Corrigan. I work for Media Academy Cardiff based in Wales. So Nick runs a not-for-profit in Wales, and right away when you talk to him, you notice two things.

He loves Wales. It's the most beautiful country in the world. And he loves game shows. Yes. What was your first one? When I was about 17. He was on a quiz show. And I won a book.

Nick has since been on, by his count, 44 game shows. Whoa. He's won 43 of them, he says. He's won a boat. He's won a house full of stuff. trips to various places. This is like what he does. And when he first encountered golden balls, he noticed the same miserable pattern that we all notice, which is like the nice people get up there. They say, let's share. Let's do it. We can be in this together. And then every time, they were just shafted.

But then Nick got an idea. How did you get that idea? I think I was probably swimming. I get all my greatest ideas on I'm swimming. It was only when I went back and had a cup of tea, as everybody in Well, Wales obviously drinks tea. With your lump of coal right next to you. Yes. You're a little pet, coal lump. Coal is very important to Wales. When I got back, I thought, actually, it can't fail.

So Nick makes it on to the show, makes it to the last round. Welcome back to Golden Bulls. And he finds himself sitting across the table from a man named Ibrahim, who two of them are a study in contrast. Nick is tall, he's got really intense eyes, feathered hair. Abraham is short and bald and looks kind of like a mini Telly Savalas. Ibrahim and Nick, you now face a very straightforward choice. Jess, where the host lays out the scenario. They're competing for 14,000 pounds.

They have to decide to split or steal. And now we get to the good part. Now, keep in mind, as you listen to this, that almost 100% of the time, what happens in this moment is one person looks at the other and says, I promise you, I will choose the split ball. We'll share it. We'll share it together. Yeah, that's what they say.

Nick takes a very different approach. I want you to trust me. 100% I'm going to pick the steel ball. Sorry, you're going to... I'm going to choose the steel ball. You're going to take... I want you to do split, and I promise you

that I will split the money with you. After you've took the steel. Yeah. You're going to take steel. Yeah. I'm going to take split. Yeah. So you take the money...

And I will split it with you. After the show. Yeah. There was utter panic in the studio. Because this whole idea was like, I'm not even going to pretend I'm not going to steal. And then I'll meet you on a corner after the television show. Give you the half of it? Well, that's ridiculous.

All the researchers started running around going, what's you doing? Can this be done? There was panic. I promise you I'll do that. If you do steal, we both walk away with nothing, I'm telling you 100% I'm going to do it. I appreciate that. Right, I'll give you another alternative. Why don't we just both pick split?

I'm not going to pick split. I'm going to steal. I'm honestly 100% I'm going to steal It's in your nature to steal No I'm honest and I'm going to tell you I am that's why I'm telling I'm going to steal If you do split then I will split the money I can't see myself doing it

Okay well I'm going to steal so we're going to leave with nothing Where's your brain's coming from I can't work at I know that I'm a decent guy and I will split the money with you Well we should just both spit then No I'm going to do steal And this argument went on and on Blimey O'Reilly

The actual argument, not the edited version online, went for 45 minutes. There was name calling, there were threats, and over those 45 minutes, there was an interesting shift. Nick says that the audience began to turn on him. The audience behind were booing me. Which, uh, I get, because as I was watching it, I mean, initially it seems like a really cool, clever strategy. But then you realize, as it goes on, that he's being kind of a ass? Like, he's not giving the other guy a choice. He's actually kind of bullying him.

No matter what he said, I was not budget. from the fact and my intransigence just infuriated him. Did you ever actually like hate him or actually... Yes, I did hate him. Yes. Yes. Yes, I did. This is Ibrahim. Ibrahim Hussein. I'm a market trader. I work on flea markets. He sells textiles in London. It took us forever to track him down. Months. You found me at last.

But I did hate him, I think, because he couldn't be... You couldn't negotiate with him. There was no negotiation. I was saying to him, like, if I give you my word that I'm going to split, then I'm going to split. If I gave you my word, now let me tell you what my word means. Okay. My father once said to me,

a man who doesn't keep his word is not a man. He's not worth nothing. It's not worth a dollar. I agree. So, I'm going to steal. So you've got the choice. That was the point where I was like, Nick. Give the guy a chance at least. Come on.

We've lost it. We've lost everything. We've lost then. We're walking away with no money because you're an idiot. No, that's right. You're an idiot. You're an idiot. That's what you are. You're an idiot. That's what you are. This can go on all night and these people have got to get up for breakfast. Nick choose split or steal. And right before they have to make their decision, it seems that Ibrahim caves. Maybe Nick wore him down and he's like, fine.

You choose steel, I'll choose split. Hopefully you'll share the money. Right, I'll tell you what, I'm going to go with you. Okay. I'm going to go. I promise you I will get it. You cannot change your balls now. Split or steal.

They both turn over their balls. Ibrahim, as we suspected, chose split. I thought I had no alternative. And Nick also chose split. Yes, congratulations. You have both split and each received £6,800. How did you put me through that? The whole game he swore he was.

going to steal, but then he ends up split it. Do you think that he was lying the whole time and always intended to share? He could have changed his mind at the last second, whatever the case. Here's why his strategy was so brilliant. I'll shut. I was taken aback. When we asked

Ibrahim, like if Nick hadn't deployed that crazy strategy, would you have still split? Because that's what you were saying to him the whole time, that you're going to split it, you're going to share the money. Would you have still done it? No, not at all. Not at all. Oh, I was always going to steal.

I was never going to split. Never. Really? Really. I was never going to split. Why? Why? Why?

The reason being, if I split and the other guy steals, I'll get nothing. I'd rather both of us walk away with nothing than someone, what's the word, embarrass me to a certain extent. Didn't want to be the sucker. And then I asked him, like, what about that speech with your dad? That's the one that kind of got me. My father once said to me, A man who doesn't keep his word is not a man. Can I, no, can I just jump in about that?

Yeah. My dad, I never met him. Really? My mother brought me up, me and my brother and my sister. And I never ever met my father. So that, you made that up? I'm afraid so. You made that up?

Yeah, yeah. I think, oh, sorry. it on a film once. And it always stuck with me. I thought I'll be able to use that one day. I've never been a good boy. I think that is the real victory here. Like Nick got a guy who's never intending to share the money,

whose whole philosophy was like... Don't trust anybody. Don't clust no one. He got that guy to be good against his will, and that guy thanks him for it. He did con me to a certain extent. But he conned me into seven fares and pounds. And Nick, for his part, is also grateful to have the money so he can give it to charity.

I run a children's charity. I do all the health and safety and all the fundraising. Is that connected in any way to your multiple appearances on game shows? Yes. It is? Yes. Huh? Directly. Yes.

You sound surprised. I do. So while Nick is doing his good works, we will take a brief break. and be right back. Hi, this is Andy Roe. Phoning from London with your credits. Okay, here we go. Radio Lab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation

and the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Radio Lab is produced by WNYC and distributed by NPR. End of message. Hey, I'm Chad I boom, Rod. I'm Robert Krollwitch.

This is Radio Lab and today... Well, we have stories on confrontations, face-offs, throwdowns, all of them leading to a question, this is the title of our show. What's left when you're right? Doesn't make a lick of sense yet. Well, maybe it will when you hear this story.

No, I'm afraid not. It won't get clear until a little bit later. In any case, this next story began And when one of our former producers, Lulu Miller, called me up and said, let's just get in the studio. I want to talk you through something. Okay. Should we just go?

Yeah. So you've been, you've been, so, okay, I honestly don't quite know what we're doing. I think you're going to tell me about something that you've been wanting to tell me about. Yes. I wanted to quickly tell you what the idea is while I truly, like, I'm still pretty darn confused by it. Okay. Yeah. Gotcha.

Okay. So, it's about my bike trip across the country. You say with a certain amount of chagrin. I don't know. I guess I just get embarrassed because it sounds like boring. Self-indulgent. Now, when I initially talked with Lulu, she was planning to write a book about the story that we're going to tell.

And I was really there to just help her sound out the ideas. And we were going to use the recording as a transcript for her. So I was just doing, you know, we were just having a... Doing her a favor. Kind of. But then when I heard the story, I decided favor over. Let's make this a radio story because it's spooky. Actually, everyone here on the staff who heard it has had that reaction.

And I think it also asks in its small way a really big question, which is how do you do good in a world that's... Well... So I feel like I went. into the trip very confident about where I stood on people, being really sure that inside everybody was like just another good soul. You know, everyone has quirks and ticks that make them angry or obnoxious or conceited or depressed, but that those ticks are just kind of like a good soul trying to like claw its way through the world. Yeah, no, that strikes me as one of your primary assumptions about the world, just knowing. Yeah. Well, well, we're,

What? Past tense. So something changed on this trip? Yeah. There was a moment that... So I did the bike trip with my friend Sue. Sue, as she explained, is an old friend. They met in college. And she says one of the first things that she noticed about Sue

was that she would say the most amazing things. Like, for example, she is Korean. And she moved to the States when she was 12. speaks English perfectly, no accent. But every now and then, she has like a language mashup that is so brilliant, and she doesn't even notice it. One was like, I don't know, I was just like running around and I was so crazzled that I dola-la-la-la. And it was like, oh, crazzled.

That's not a word, but I know exactly what you mean. That's crazed and frazzled. And actually, that's a better word. And then, like, you know, I just want to like, why is it when I get down? I like to eat all this grubbish. I just don't understand. and like grubbish is invented. Or like my dad is always worrying that I'm just always going to be trapezing around.

And she meant trapesing. But trapezing is a much better word. But like trapezing is better. That's like with our whole generation of like low life A-holes are doing. We're trapezing. Point is Lulu was drawn to Sue. They became great friends. And part of that connection, this is the key, is that they were so different.

She has a very different personality than I do. Whereas Lulu is kind of your classic. optimistic optimist Sue. She's a very grouchy and always, like, frustrated by people. And she's really, really smart. So she'll, like, go on the most wonderfully enjoyable rants about people. So anyhow, they decided to take this bike trip across the country. They had actually done one before, so they knew they could travel together.

And they obviously knew they had this difference in personality. And in fact, as they were biking and stopping all these little towns, they would sort of joke about it. She would always yell at me for being what she called an over-engager, which is like we ask for directions, and then I'm like, really old man, no, are you a farmer? Oh, you're a beet farmer? How does beet farming work? Oh, and she's sitting there like, Jesus, we have 3,500 miles ago. So it was sort of charming.

They would tease one another. But then they came to this moment where that difference between them stopped being charming. and it got kind of dangerous. Basically, long story short. A few weeks into the trip, Lulu's front wheels busted, and they roll into this town. Called Pittsburgh, Kansas. Kind of a small, forgotten town in eastern Kansas, near Missouri.

There was nobody there. It was like all desolate and hot. But there was a bike shop. So we went to the bike shop, and the bike mechanic there, Roger. Big ball guy. I was like, well, I don't have any wheels, but I can build you one. If you guys can stay a day, I could build you one today,

and have it for you tomorrow. So they went off, checked email, set up camp, came back early the next morning. We got there, and you could tell he hadn't even started it. The wheel was just hanging there where they'd left it. And Lulu says at this point, her and Sue started going in opposite directions. So I registered that, and I was like,

maybe it only takes an hour to make a wheel, and he'll have it ready by 11, you know. And Sue registered that and was just like, what the F? She said, I'm going to talk to this guy. I immediately got, like, hot and flushed and didn't want her to say anything. Lulu rushes Sue out of the store telling Roger. Whoa, we'll come back soon. Two hours later, they return again.

And the bike wheel is still there, not even touched. Sue really wanted to say something. And I think we kind of had a skirmish in the back. Like, I was like, no, don't. Like, I could tell. He was kind of not taking us seriously. But I still was like, if we can take. to be nice to him, what reason would he have to, like, sabotage us or, or not follow through?

If I just keep treating him with respect, he'll treat us with respect. And she says, Sue, on the other hand, was like, Lulu, don't you see? Like, this guy thinks we're just, like, these dilatantish college girls. This is some weird power thing. He's taking advantage of us. And Lulu's like, no, he's not. And then it's, like, stupid, is Roger going to make a bike wheel? turned into the...

Turned into a test. Yeah, turned into like a test of the human spirit. Yeah. A few more hours pass. Lulu and Sue are sitting on this couch in the back of the store, not talking to each other. And then his two little boys come in. He has two little boys. And they were like, Daddy, can we go soon?

And he's like, oh, I got to finish this. But then we can go on the ride. And I remember that I remember he called them sweetie. And I remember that being like a point for me. Because it was like, a man who calls his... little boys, sweetie, like, that's a good person, you know. A few more hours pass. And they're still sitting there on this couch, now with these two little boys.

All four of us on this couch, and they were watching Nickelodeon cartoons. And in the middle of the cartoons, Gordon Lulu, there was a commercial for the Army, like in a recruiting ad, and she says that was the moment where Sue just lost it. She turned to Lulu. And maybe it was one sentence, and maybe it was 45 minutes. Like, I don't know. But she said, you know, something along the lines of the way you think you are in the world as like so nice to people, that's a form of deceit. And then she says Sue stormed right up to Roger.

And I'm sitting on this couch fuming. And she laid into him. We're not going to make it by dark and we have to get there. And this is your fault. And she like demanded that one of the like younger guys that worked in his store give us a ride. And he's like, well, this guy's got things to do. and it was just this horrible thing that I was just like, and on my way out.

After Sue had already walked out. I tried to say something to Roger, like, hey, I'm really sorry. I just, it's been a, you know, I tried to kind of like apologize for her and for myself. And he was like, well, tell your friend so sorry to have inconvenienced her vacation. Lulu said that feeling like this guy doesn't know them just now assumes they are these spoiled college girls. that just aided her. She kept thinking, I don't get it. Like, if we had just been nice to the guy instead of confronting him, maybe he wouldn't think that about us.

Making matters worse, after they left the bike shop, they piled into this car. And this kid from Roger's bike shop drove them into Missouri, because that's what Sue had demanded. And we paid him, and the kid was really nice, but I just was like, this feels so, like, I feel so disgusting being in this car with her. And it just, like, the whole thing was awful. Got to Missouri. And I just remember like Missouri passing in a blur of me being like, I am riding with a crazy person. So you felt like suddenly this difference between you guys was serious. Yeah.

And just to walk me through a little bit about, I mean. Well, I have to, I do have to warn you, though, this isn't the moment. This is not the moment. This is not the moment. So let me. Do you want to tell me about the moment? Yeah, I want to tell you about the moment really bad. Yeah, take you there.

Okay. So I was just like finished this trip. And then we get to Damascus. where the transcontinental bike route that we were riding crosses with the Appalachian Trail. So it's like in the mountains. And the town put this little, so they have tons of people coming through. So they put this free hostel for bikers and hikers to stay. And it's unmanned.

No one's there. It's basically just kind of like an empty house with wooden bunk beds. You can lie your sleeping bag on in a kitchen. So we get there and these two Appalachian hikers are staying there too. And it's just us and them. Guy and a girl. The guy, she says, was maybe 23, brown hair, super blue eyes. The other hiker, she's a young girl doing it by herself, and we're all talking.

It's late. We're in this little living room area. And he kind of immediately jumps into the conversation and just starts, like, taking it over with his life story, which is that he thinks he's a prophet. He has a gift of prophecy. He also has a gift of extreme empathy where he can come into a room and he'll be, like, like, deafened by all the thoughts he can hear in other people. And I was kind of like, all right, we've got a nutter, but I know what he's saying. And Sue is like rolling her eyes.

And then he says, oh, and you know, I prophesied the Virginia tech shootings. And it's like, oh, okay. So then there's like this silence. And it's now like 10.30 p.m. and I don't know what you say in that moment. I don't, you know, like, I think, like, in a way, make him not feel crazy for that. Somehow in that moment, my instinct is, like, just don't rattle this guy, maybe. Yeah.

And then he says, another time I was getting off from work, I was walking home from the bus, he was, like, worked as a chef or he cook it, you know, in a kitchen, and then he was walking home from the bus, and he was really late. And then he said, and an African-American woman came up to me, dressed in really, like, revealing clothing. And turned out she was a prostitute, and she offered her services to me. And I said no, and then I blacked out. And the next moment I came to, and I had a knife around her throat. Whoa.

There's, like, this pause. And then... I remember just, like, my heart almost, like, pounding. Not out of nervousness. It was just like, but, but, but, but. Just I couldn't let him go on. This, of course, is Sue. She just starts attacking him.

I had to correct him. I think that's really irresponsible. He pulled out a knife, he said. He was going to do something. And the fact that he just so cavalierly said that. And I'm like staring at her clenching my teeth. Like, what the f-are you doing? Like, this is, don't behave this way,

but don't behave this way right now with this person, please. No, you're wrong. Like, if he didn't want to be corrected, he wouldn't have told that story. She says, you know, I think this isn't demonic possession. You need to, like, seek counseling. You should confront it. You should talk to a therapist. At that moment, Lulu says she reached down and hit record on her tape recorder,

figuring, all right, if this guy snaps, at least I'll have it on tape for the police. You'll hear his voice in here, but we've concealed his identity. And he's like, oh, what? I'm crazy because I have, like, influenced by other things. And she said, you know, you never know. And the word schizophrenia fell out. develop schizophrenia. Schizophrenia?

Yeah, I know it's a big word, but it's... Everybody has to have a psychological issue in the United States. But you do. I do remember he was like, no. He's like, you're calling me schizophrenic? No, no. It's so typical. You would go to that, and she is just like taking him to town,

and they're fighting, and I'm scared. Because then you allow that possible ... It wasn't a spiritual problem. We just kept to argue. And like, why? What were you trying to get from this guy? To admit that I almost killed someone. I almost killed someone. someone, period.

But it wasn't me. It was me, but it wasn't me. She was just like, but why are you telling us this? You come out, you show us your journal, you tell us this story. We've known you for three seconds. You clearly want to be judged. And so I have to judge it. Your laws of the Bible, which seem to be what you rely on, say to respect the laws of

the land, how dare you take a life, a human sacred life in your hands? No, you almost murdered a black woman. That's scary to me. And the fact that you were confronted as that, He's worse. You almost did that. And she, like, I don't know, I had this moment, like, suddenly. Lulu says she's not sure why.

But it turned. And I was like, I am so, like, proud to be associated with somebody like this. Like, I would never do any of that. And she just, like, knows how to stands up for things. And it turned for him, too. He kind of like over time slowly started backing down and even conceding I really might need help and I don't know how to get it. And then she sort of softened and they were really having a conversation and this thing inside him like a different hymn came out like not the weird crazy person I was just tolerantly accepting like a little being a real confused person came out and was talking to her. You know and everyone else kind of dropped away and they like go out and share this cigarette on the porch and come back literally.

like arm and like arms slung over each other. I think when you get to the bottom of something with someone, you feel a kind of kinship, right? You know, I don't know what they said out there. And all I knew in the moment was like, I'm so proud of her. I am so like proud to be with this person. Like I realize that she has so much, she just has so much more hope.

Like she is just enraged by anyone who doesn't like live up to this. their potential. Like I don't, it's like, my little theory was like, oh, we're all just selfish and we all kind of are assholes, but we're all, you know, but be nice about it. And she like has this a true hope, like, that actually we could, that actually like we're capable of, of better. That's a really utopian reading of such a crappy part of my personality. Seriously, like, you can't even give me that? Like, is there really no part of you that sees what is so good about this? The reason why I say it's romanticizing is that it's actually, it's a kind of, you know,

it's like scratching out a scab or something, and that's what I tend to do, and it's hurtful for the parties involved, and it's alienating to me, right? Nobody wants to be around that person. But the change you create on the other side, I mean, it's change. It's like my way of being maybe feels good in the moment and it enables stasis, you know? But it also sustains a relationship, right? Well, let me ask you this. Have you had issues with being cruel to friends and losing friends or something?

I mean, I'm just guessing based on what you just said. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Yeah Sue actually said that when she got home from the bike trip Her roommates at the place where she was staying confronted her We think you have an anger problem

So I just I moved out There was a big blowout fight And then I moved out So the story leaves you with some questions Like if you agree That people are messed up Like of course they are, we all are And what's the best way to heal

People I mean do you decide as Lulu does or did that you should approach the world with kindness and happiness no matter how the world greets you, or is that kind of giving up? Like a happy hopelessness. So then do you put your foot down as Sue did? And say, no, you are messed up. Don't be messed up. Is that hope?

Or just being mean? I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I'm still confused. I'm still very confused. Maybe I have it all wrong. Thank you, Lulu. Thank you, Sue. Thank you, Jad. Thank you. Big thanks to Damiano Marquetti. We'll be right back. This is Jenny Steiner calling from Milwaukee, Wisconsin. Radio Lab is supported in part by the National Science Foundation.

And by the Alfred Peace Loom Foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org. Hey, I'm Chad Abumrod. I'm Robert Crilwich. This is Radio Lab and today. Well, it's stories about confrontation. Throwdowns. Faceoffs.

Smackdowns. We're calling it, what's left when you're right? And now, at last, that title will make sense. I think it will. Because now we have a story about a fight that starts in a cage, spills over into the human species as a whole, and turns out in the end to be nested inside. the brains of every single one of us.

And that story comes from our producer, Pat Walters. It all started for me with this essay that I read by this guy named Jonathan Gottshall. I'm a writer and a fighter. And a bad, bad man. So a few years ago, I'm an English teacher. I'm sitting in the English department. I'm sitting in the cubicle. He was a teacher at a small college outside Pittsburgh.

And at the time, Jonathan had written some articles, even a couple of books. I was still an adjunct, a lowly adjunct. You know, the academic equivalent of cheap migrant labor. Pretty low in the tonal pole. So I was sitting there in the cubicle that I share with other adjuncts. I'm just kind of feeling miserable. I'm down about my job. And then I catch a glimpse of movement through the window.

And I go to the window and I look out. And notices that across the street where there used to be a car parts store. This new business had opened up. A mixed martial arts gem. This cage fighting. stuff that you see on TV. They're like the kind where you can, where anything goes, like that kind? Anything goes, yeah.

Punching, kicking, mean, ground and pound. You can climb on top of a guy and punch him in the face until he goes out. That stuff is just too raw. Well, I had been watching it guiltily and very much in the closet for about 15 years. I knew it was wrong. I watched it in the way that most men watch porn. You know, my wife would walk into the room and I was watching. I really quickly turned the channel.

But now there they were, these huge muscle-bound dudes in the picture window right across the street. They're in the cage, they're hitting each other, they're tackling, they're fighting on the ground. And as he watches them day after day... I start to envy them. I envy their bravery. And the way they just seemed so alive while I was in my cube rotting.

And so one day, he decides... I decide to do it. I'm going over there. No, I'm not a tough guy. I'm an English professor. I'd never been in a fight before. but I wanted to try to do a brave thing. Did you tell your wife?

Yeah, yeah. What was your wife's a reaction? This is almost a perfect paraphrase. He said, you will be killed. You have no skills. Yeah, it kind of hurt. It hurts to find out your wife has no respect for your fighting prowess. But that doesn't stop him.

No. It starts training, sparring with other beginners. And this is how it all goes down. Maybe I'm four months into my training. Let's say I'm about four months into my training. and I feel like I'm starting to get the hang of things. I'm starting to feel more confident. And I'm doing pretty well against the other beginners and sort of the weaker guys in the gym.

So one day I go into the gym and it turns out I'm going to spar this guy named Nick. And I'm a little concerned about it because he's been at the gym longer than me. But I'm not all that concerned because I've watched Nick. We all watch each other in the gym. And he's just not an athlete. He even says this himself. He's kind of a klutzy guy. He's awkward in his movements a little bit.

a little bit stiff. And I felt that just like athletically, I stacked up very well with him. I was faster than him. I thought I'd get around better. And so, you know, we go into the cage. The bell rings, and, you know, we go to the center of the cage, and we engage.

And again, I'm feeling confident. And then? He punches me hard in the face. Then he hits him again. The punches keep coming. Jab cross, jab cross, jab cross, jab cross. Look, he doesn't bob, he doesn't weave, he doesn't dance. right there in front of you. You should be able to hit him, but I can't. He's just hammering me.

Finally, the bell rings. And I go collapse in one of the chairs and my headache is already thudding in my brain. And I say to myself, well, that seals it. The 40-Ramond hypothesis has to be true. The 40-Ramond hypothesis has to be-40. Oh, the 40-Rayman. So, okay, what's the right question now? What is it? What is it? That is a Fori Raymond hypothesis. Okay, so Forie and Raymond are these French researchers. Okay, so before we get done to the two French researchers, you should say that Nick, that guy Jonathan fought...

Nick is a lefty. Nick is a lefty. Jonathan is a righty. And this conflict between lefties and righties, it goes way back. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Just ask David Woolman. I'm an author and journalist in Portland, Oregon. You're right-handed, right?

No, I am very left-handed. I said that like he wanted to kill me. I was trying to. trying to get it out that way. Like Batman defends, you know, against crime. David is a defender of lefties everywhere. I am a strong left-hander. If you look at the Edinburgh handedness inventory, I'm like a 10 out of 10.

I did it. I'm a very strong right-hand. I'm like a, I got like a perfect score for right-handedness. Okay. Well, our friendship is over now. David's kind of joking. But he actually wrote this whole book called a left-handed turn around the world. Because growing up as a kid in a family of right-handers,

David says he always felt a little different, or as his family used to put it, you're special, and this is some little extra sprinkle of specialness in you. Luckily, they're not, you know, they didn't grow up in the Middle Ages and think that I was cursed by the devil, and therefore I'm left-handed. Because throughout the ages and pretty much throughout every culture, left-handers were perceived as evil and sinister. In fact, the word sinister itself is derived from a Latin word, which means on the left side.

And in English, when we say something is correct, we say it's right. You know, in the Bible, God is always doing really nice and benevolent things with the right hand and not so nice or benevolent things with the left hand. Everything left is always ugly or lesser or different or worrisome. And the presumption was that if this was not the result of a curse from the devil, then this was the result of poor parenting or poor posture. But we know now that... No.

It's genetic. When you do a genetic study and you look at parents... Here's how it plays out. If you have two right-handed parents, their chance of having a left-hander is about 9.5%. If you have one righty, one lefty parent, the odds do go up. Now you've got 20%, almost 20% chance.

Then two south-paw parents have a 26% chance of delivering into the world a south-paw. And if you add up those chances and look out across the entire human species... We are about 90% right-handed, 10% left-handed. 90% of people are right-handers. Which brings us back to Vorian Raymond.

So Forrean Raymond realized that left-handedness is a sort of evolutionary mystery. Jonathan says it's a mystery, at least in part, because left-handedness seems to come with some disadvantages. It's associated with all these negative health outcomes, and I actually wrote a few of them down. Higher risk of schizophrenia, immune deficiency, epilepsy, learning disability, spinal deformity, ADHD, ADHD, ADHD, alcoholism, dyslexia, psychopathy, Crohn's disease. It's not even a complete list. So wait, lefties have a higher incidence of all these things? Yeah, significant... How much higher?

Like a teeny bit higher? teeny bit. teeny bit. Like a really teeny bit. But evolution works on teeny bits, right? So if there are significant health costs of being left-handed, why hasn't natural selection trimmed it away? Why do we still have lefties at all? That's the puzzle.

And the Forrean-Ramond hypothesis is that we still have lefties in the world because they have an advantage in one arena. Combat. which is what Jonathan realized in the ring with Nick. You get very used to fighting right-handers. You get used to where the punches are coming from. And then you face a left-hander. And they do everything backwards. And you have to develop basically a whole different approach to fighting.

And if you go back to a time when wars were won and lost largely because of hand-to-hand combat, whether with fists or with spears or with clubs or whatever, maybe the ancient lefties, like Nick, had a little edge. Maybe the survival advantage of battling left-handed washed out those survival costs associated with being left-handed. So Forie and Raymond came up with this prediction. A prediction based on their idea.

That if left-handedness is somehow linked to fighting prowess, then... Wherever they go in the world, they will find that the most violent societies have the highest proportion of lefties. How would they define violent? Like over time, the number of wars? Numbers of wars, homicide rates, that kind of thing. I see. So they dug up some data on violence and left-handedness

in three different tribal societies. Then they went out and did their own field research in five other groups. And they find this beautiful correlation. The least violent society in their sample had 3% left-handers. The most violent societies in their sample, tribal societies in New Guinea that were notoriously violent,

had rates of left-handedness at about 25 or 30%. Whoa. Yeah, it was this incredible... So three times as many lefties as us, I guess? Yeah, wow. So it seemed to be true. Case closed. No.

No. Here's the thing, that tribe from Papua New Guinea that had three times many lefties, as you would expect, that was data that they looked up in the library. But when some other scientists actually went in the field and checked it, They found no evidence that lefties were overrepresented in this tribe. It wasn't heavily lefty. According to this study, they just didn't find any evidence that lefties were overrepresented.

I'm disappointed because this was a very cool idea. I was disappointed too. But I think we can salvage it. Here's where Jonathan had an idea of his own. After Nick knocked him out, he thought maybe looking at real battles, real violence, maybe that was where Fowry and Raymond went wrong. Maybe lefty genes are maintained more through success in the playfights of sports than an actual no-holds-barred violence. Maybe it's about sports, not war.

In fact, actually, lefties have long been known for doing better at all kinds of different sports. Tennis, boxing, baseball. We looked at a Northwestern study jed, which found that 50% of the top players in baseball at its highest RBI's, the best pitchers. Wait, 50% are lefties? Yes. And you see the same overrepresentation of lefties in any sport that's got a one-on-one component, you know, a face-off kind of thing. The only scientific question you need to ask is, do athletes have more children?

Oh, wait a second. So you're saying all those lefty pitchers that are really good and that screw up the right-handed hitters, maybe they're having so many kids. Yeah. And that's what keeps that 10%, 10%. Well, sort of. Yeah. We can check this.

We can have lefty Gomez, New York giant left-hander, has 16 children. So people have actually looked into this. You know, they've looked into it. Do athletes do better with the ladies? And the evidence is pretty strong that they do. Really? Really? Do athletes better?

You went to high school in college? Well, yeah, that seems like, duh, you don't need a scientist to tell you that. And so. But you have to count the babies. Count the babies. Are you, like, counting the babies? Or you count the reproductive opportunities. You mean, like, how many dates they go on?

Yeah, exactly. How many sex partners they have? Why not count the babies? You don't want to count the babies? Well, because we live in an era of birth control now. And so it's in the environments in which these traits evolved, there were no reliable means of birth control. So we use reproductive opportunities as a proxy for reproductive success. And then, okay, it's starting to make sense to me now.

How could I lovingly say that sounds like total garbage? You'd think David would love this idea. He's the lover of lefties, but no. It's just, there's too much biology. at play here. And too much ancient prehistoric biology at play for this to matter as much as your dear English professor friend wants it to matter. But here's the thing. Whether or not this has been proven scientifically, personally, I know it's true. I know it's true because I experienced it. I know it's true in a way that statistics can't touch. You know, I know it's true from being in that cage.

having the undoubtable truth just pounded into my brain, literally, by my friend Nick. You know, I know it's true. I mean, it's so fun. These kind of things are so fun because it's so easy, right? I mean, who doesn't love an easy answer? But it seems so far-fetched. And maybe that makes me a little bit of a wet blanket. But after this year plus investigating this topic.

David says about halfway through writing his book, this whole handedness puzzle kind of flipped for him. Instead of worrying about why lefties have stuck around, he started to wonder about that 90-10 number. Like, why in humans do lefties only make up 10% of the population when in pretty much every other creature on Earth? This asymmetry is random. In other words, it's a coin flip,

whether a monkey in South America is going to be left or right-handed. Several studies have shown that it's about 50-50 in cats, same is true for dogs. People have looked at mice. Toads, various kinds of birds, and all of them have a pretty even split. It looks like what is unique to humanity is the 90-10. So how did we end up at 90-10? Well, one of the strongest theories for the origins of handedness

hooks handness onto left hemisphere dominance for speech. The idea, says, David, is that humans are way back in the day. So these would be like early humans, pre-human ancestors. were 50-50s. That is, they were 50% righty, they were 50% lefty, like all the other animals in the forest. So the things that our brains were doing back then

were also even on both sides. So the motor cortex on the left controlled the right hand, as it still does. The motor control on the right controls the left hand, as it still does. But then... At some point, in our evolutionary history... Language begins to develop.

And there was this shift in brain organization. The part of the brain that... I don't know why this happened, but it began to move over to the left side of our brain. According to one theory, that shift ended up making the left side of our brains better at motor control. Because think about what speech is. I'm going to say, let's pick a pair of pickled peppers. My tongue, my lips, my teeth are all in a medley of complex motion there. That is all about motor control.

So the left side of my brain is doing that, and it's getting bigger and stronger. As the species gets more and more speechy, it gets more and more left brain or right-handed. So you're saying that as speech grows on our left side, the motor cortex grows on our left side. And since the left motor cortex controls the right hand, the end result is a bias to the right. Yes. But weirdly, buried somewhere deep in our DNA, still... Is this gene that confers the chance to become left-handed? Which results in about 10% of the population being lefties.

But they're not dwindling, though. They just seem to stick there. Well, they don't seem to be dwindling in the blink of an eye that is the time we've been looking at this. But you know what I mean? Shut up, lefty. Or whatever. Maybe there's just, you know, you're just still around because you're like a vestige of what we used to be. Thank you.

Thank you. I'll call my, as soon as my kids are old enough to, I'll tell them that daddy's a vestige. which sort of brought us back to our original question. Like, why aren't lefties dwindling? And when we push David, here's what he finally said. I would argue because I'm a lefty and a strong left-handed, so, you know, take many, many grains of salt. You're arguing from pride. We understand that.

Of course. No, well, pride and a little bit of research, but I would argue that a splash of diversity within the brain as far as brain organization has, had a cumulative beneficial effect for our species. How exactly does he mean? Well, because if conditions on Earth should change radically, nature just likes to have a little variety in the gene pool. So if everyone's doing really well with one set of genes

and the situation changes drastically, you don't want everybody to get sick and die. So in variety, there is a slightly heightened chance of survival. I think it's a subtle advantage to the population, but I think there's a beauty to it, nevertheless. Lefties are coming at the world from a slightly different angle. But this puts David in kind of a weird spot. Because even if lefties don't dwindle away,

if sports or brain diversity or some other random reason keeps them around, they'll always be the few. You know, as I said in the book, I don't think this is cause for the next March on Washington. But lefties are their own special minority group. Unless... You are a parrot. This is Coco.

Yes. Somehow I knew you guys would go for the parrot. As it turns out, parrots seem to be, I think it's 90% left-handed, or left-footed, or left-clawed, left-talent, whatever I'm supposed to call it. Robert Laine went to visit this artist named Hunt, Sloan, Boot, Rescues, a lot of parrots.

This is a cockatiel, whose name is Crayola. And we tested 11 of... his birds. They told us that the test that they've used before is we put a piece of food on the table or on a platform and whichever foot they pick it up with is their preferred foot. Well, that makes sense. We would walk up

to a cage. This is Clive. Hi. Greet the parrot. I want to give you a potato chip. Present it with our treat and then we would wait to see what it did. A lefty. We have a lefty. We went up to another cage. Do it the same thing.

A left, left foot. A left foot. Another lefty. And in the end? Left again. The final count was... Okay, so our final tally was, what, nine to... Nine to two to one. Nine lefty, two righty, and one went both way.

So that is close to 90%. Close to, yes. So if David was a parrot, he would have felt right at home. But why do you suppose parrots are 90 to 10 the other way? I have no... I don't think anybody knows. Rosetta. On the other hand... Hi.

Hi. They do talk a lot. That's funny. Hi. What is this? What is his name is baby? We've incited mayhem. Oh, this is nothing. They're in the best of the label. Hello, this is Sue.

Jonathan Gottschall. Hello, this is David Woolman. Meeting you guys for credits. Here we go. Radio Lab is produced by Chad Boomrod. Our staff includes Helen. Horn. Going Wheeler.

Pat Walters. Kim Howard. Brenna Farrell. Molly Webster. Melissa O'Donnell. Dylan Keith, Jimmy York. Lynn Levy, Andy Mills, and Kelsey Paget. With help from Ariane Wack, Simon Adler.

And Chris Nell Store. Special thanks. Special thanks to Sam Bryant. And PJ Voight. PJ Vote. P.J. Vote. Thanks very much. Okay.

Bye. Bye.