Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov - 50 Days to Midterms: Trump DOWNPLAYS the AI Apocalypse (ft. Dana Bash)

Episode Date: September 14, 2026

Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov are joined by Dana Bash — CNN's chief political correspondent, anchor of Inside Politics and State of the Union, and author of the new book The Elections That Changed the World: Fifteen Pivotal Moments That Shaped How We Live — available September 22nd. They begin with the midterm landscape, 50 days out. A new poll has Democrats leading Republicans 42% to 30% in enthusiasm to vote — a significant gap. Scott, Jessica, and Dana talk about whether Dems can keep this momentum into November, and whether Mitch McConnell will finally return to Congress now that it's back in session. Anthropic's CEO called for a slowdown in AI development over the weekend, and a new and unlikely alliance has emerged. Bernie Sanders and Steve Bannon are teaming up to advocate for a slowdown in AI development — making opposition to generative AI, Big Tech, and data center buildout among the starkest bipartisan issues of our era. Dana breaks down how growing fears about AI and the data center backlash are shaping the midterm political landscape. Then, Dana's new book. The Elections That Changed the World looks at fifteen elections across history — from Julius Caesar in ancient Rome, all the way to the modern era — that fundamentally shape how we live today. She explains what makes these elections — and any election — truly consequential, how much of our modern political dysfunction has roots in much earlier moments, and which election had consequences most radically different from what voters thought they were choosing at the time.  They close with the question: is there room for anyone in the center now?  Pre-order I DISAGREE — the new book by Jessica Tarlov — available everywhere on September 15th! https://sites.prh.com/idisagree For ad-free episodes, exclusive livestreams, and to connect with Scott, Jessica, and the Raging Moderates community, join us at ProfG+ on Substack: https://ragingmoderates.profgmedia.com/ Get The Monday Rage newsletter: https://profgmedia.com/s/monday-rage/ Follow Raging Moderates on IG, Tiktok, and Facebook: https://www.instagram.com/ragingmoderatespod/ https://www.tiktok.com/@ragingmoderates https://www.facebook.com/ragingmoderates Follow Jessica Tarlov on Instagram, Substack, and Bluesky: https://instagram.com/jessicatarlov https://substack.com/@jessietarlov https://bsky.app/profile/jessicatarlov.bsky.social Follow Scott on Instagram, Substack, and Bluesky: https://instagram.com/profgalloway https://substack.com/@profgalloway https://bsky.app/profile/profgalloway.com Subscribe to our YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/@RagingModerates Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

How many third-party vendors does your company use? 20, 200? Thanks to AI, someone on your team probably added three more this week. And your security lead has no idea. Traditional third-party risk management can't keep up. Vanta gives you continuous coverage across every vendor, automatically, so you actually know what's in your stack and what to do about it. AI on, risk off.

Vanta.com. How many third-party vendors does your company use? 20, 200? Thanks to AI, someone on your team probably added three more this week. And your security lead has no idea. Traditional third-party risk management can't keep up. Vanta gives you continuous coverage across every vendor, automatically, so you actually know what's in your stack and what to do about it.

AI on, risk off. Vanta.com slash TPR. You're a pro at running your life, at committing to your workout, at showing up every day. At Bombas, we're pros too. Pros at making socks. Our sport assortment has specialized socks for whatever sport you're committed to. Running, hiking, golf, Pilates, and so much more. Made with sweat-wicking yarns, blister fighting details, and targeted art support.

Bombus sport is pro-level socks from the pros of socks. For another pro, you. Go to bombus.com slash audio and use code audio for 20% off your first purchase. That's bombus.com and use code audio. Welcome, Raging Moderates. I'm Scott Galloway. And I'm Jessica Tarlev. Jess, where are you today? I am in the Vox, Mecca, in the offices, which is how I can have the fancy Raging Moderates logo behind me.

Oh, nice. Can you see? Isn't it? It is. Well, actually, I can't see it. Yes, I'm in L.A., but tomorrow night I'm jumping on a red eye to come back to interview you in front of a live audience, a sold-out audience. at the 92nd Street, Y, to talk about your book. Very excited.

But before that, joining us today is Dana Bash, CNN's chief political correspondent in the anchor of Inside Politics and State of the Union. She's also the author of the new book, The Elections That Change the World, 15 pivotal moments that shaped how we live, which comes out September 22nd. Dana, it is so good to see you. Scott loves you. He talks about you all the time. I do.

All right, before we get into the book, what we're going to do today is we're going to start with the midterms. We're now 50 days away from the midterms, and we have a new CNN poll that should give Democrats or should have Democrats feeling pretty good. And Republicans pretty worried. Democrats leave Republicans and enthusiasm to vote in the midterm is 42% to 30%. Give us, in your view, kind of set the table, give us the lay of the land regarding the midterms from your vantage point. the hunger is there for voters who will support Democrats, the passion is there, the anger is there, which is probably the most important of the three words I just used. But the question is whether or not the systems in place are stacked so much against the Democrats

that they can actually maintain or have the blue weight. that all of the metrics right now look like they should have. And I think my answer right now is probably not. You don't know. I mean, it could be a tsunami, and maybe I'm totally wrong, but between the mid-decade redistricting and the who knows what's going to happen with what Trump is doing in trying to tell people don't use mail and voting,

which we can talk about more in a second because I think that cuts both ways. And even not just mid-term redistricting, the redistricting beforehand, there just aren't as many swing seats to get a big majority as there were, never mind 2018, but certainly 2006. When I feel like 2006, it feels the most like today in terms of the issues and the, whether it's health care, which is the broader affordability bucket, and also war. Who knew that we would be in an anti-war posture right now with Donald Trump as president?

And do you think, so the polling I'm saying is that it's sort of a fetacom plea that we're going to take the House, but now it feels like we're starting to really actually believe we might take the Senate. Talk about what you think the prospects are of the Democrats capturing control of the Senate. Look, it's an uphill climb. And everything has to go their way to get even a way. one-seat majority. But it is possible. I mean, if you think about the state of Kansas, Kansas has not gone for the Democrats in decades and decades on a federal level. They've elected governors, but not on a federal level for the Senate. And the vice president of the United States, whose time is very important and very valuable, is campaigning for the Republican

incumbent senator in Kansas. That tells you everything you need to know, not necessarily that he's going to lose, but that they're afraid enough that they need to bolster him up. So if you look at that, I don't know that that's going to happen, but obviously the biggies are Texas, Iowa, which because candidate quality really matters, and the candidate in Iowa, the Republican, Ashley Hinson, is a very good candidate. Even Democrats will tell you that. And then they have to not lose Michigan, which is an open Democratic seat, and New Hampshire, which is an open Democratic seat because of retirements. I'm glad you brought up New Hampshire because this is like my latest anxiety attack because we just haven't been focusing on it at all. And I had Chris Pappas on before the

primary and it feels like the last couple of weeks, this has just started bubbling up as like we could have a, and we're saying we, we know that you are not a we in this. This is a me and a Scott we in terms of the Democrats. But I did not think that I would have to be having panic attacks about Michigan or New Hampshire. And I mean, Sununu's are great candidates in general, but it seems more fraught than we thought. And I don't know if it's just the Pappas's team hasn't been talking about this enough or what's been going on. But it does feel like it just entered the conversation. It did.

I think part of it is because we just had the primary. Their primary is very late. It was just last week. So now the general election is set. By the way, you talking about the two of you and others who want the Democrats to win should be very, happy that Pappas won that primary because the sort of DSA lefty candidate was closing in. Didn't end up really that competitive, but you never know in these times with the Democratic Party. And so, yeah, so the primary is done, and the Sununu name is still really rock solid as a family and

independent individual candidates who look out for New Hampshire, obviously still. starting with the father, Governor Sununu, the first John Sununu, and this is John E. Sanunu, who was a senator. And then he lost to Gene Chaheen, the Democratic senator who's retiring. And so if there's any kind or sort of flavor of Republican who can try to walk the line between still appealing to the MAGA base, which exists in New Hampshire, but also to people who just want to get things done, which also very much exists in New Hampshire, which also very much exists in New Hampshire, John E. Sanunu, who's on the ballot, is definitely their best bed. Let's talk about some of the more recent news around technology, specifically AI.

Oh, I have questions for you on this. You're going to go first here. Anthropics CEO called for a slowdown in AI development over the weekend, and now we're seeing an interesting example of bipartisanship with Bernie Sanders and Stephen Bannon teaming up to push for keeping AI under human control. What's your sense of how these growing fears about an AI apocalypse and the backlash over data centers will impact the midterms? I think it could be, and it sounds silly to say that this is an October surprise because AI is not a surprise.

But this anthropic statement from Dario and the way that other companies and CEOs are responding and more importantly, to your question, the way that candidates are being forced to respond, should be seismic. And like everything else in politics right now, the way that Donald Trump is playing it is potentially not helpful to his fellow Republicans who are on the ballot because he keeps saying,

in fact he has a lengthy post out this morning, about the fact that this is just a conspiracy and people like the head of Anthropic and others are just weak, and they don't have courage, and they don't understand that we can't seed this territory to China and so forth, which the first part is obviously that's Trump and he gets personal. That's what he does.

The second part is what we're hearing, Mike Johnson, the House Speaker and other Republicans saying, okay, we do need to address this, but we can't, we can pump the brakes, but not slam on the brakes, because if we slam on the brakes, China's going to pass us by. If this was in a vacuum, it would be one thing. But the fact that this speaks to the larger set of anxieties that people have, not just on affordability, but on like what's next. And we don't know who to trust. Do we trust the CEOs? Do we trust the government officials? Do we trust the candidates? The answer to all of that is no. And so there's a sense of sort of foreboding among voters and this issue. And the fact that we now have this dire warning really feeds on that. What do you guys think? Well, I want to ask, Scott, I want to read you something that J.D. Van said this morning about it, which I'm curious to get your take on. So he said, I have to say just personally, I feel a little bit weird about the fact that you have so many frontier AI tech companies kind of coming to the government and begging the government to regulate them.

It feels to me like a bit of a Trojan horse. And the fact that they are talking about pushing back the IPO, it did over the weekend. And I remember thinking that now that like everyone's piling on and it's created these strange bedfellows, right? Like, you know, Bernie Sanders and Steve Bannon is like a horror movie essentially to me. So do you think that the AI companies are looking for the government to clean up their mess? And what is all of this entail? Like, what are we missing about what's going on here? I think you can hold two thoughts on your head at the same time.

I think these guys are looking to absolve themselves of any real liability by saying, We warned you in case something terrible happens and asking for internal, I think they're called evaluators from the government. But we've never had a trillion dollar industry with no regulation before. And it reflects really poorly on the Trump administration that effectively what they've decided is if you're to believe the CEOs of these companies, they're letting Oppenheimer form an LLC raise money from Andreson Horowitz and then sell nuclear bombs into the UAE and Procter and Gamble. The fact that we have absolutely no governance, no equivalent of the FDA, the FAA, the International Atomic Energy Association just shows this government has no understanding of science, no leadership, and their priority is, can I get a VIG?

I want to make sure the economy keeps running. And the existential risks here, I'm not interested. I want a small number of people, including myself, to capture shareholder value, and I'm going to normalize and socialize all of these risks, including perhaps a mass extinction event. This is incentives, a bunch of 30-something-year-old white dudes who all have, fever dreams of being worth $40, $50, $100 billion, which in the U.S. makes you the sexist man alive, there's a lot of incentives to keep doing that. And then an administration that has absa-fucking looting no idea. The head of HHS, RFK Jr., heads the Center for Disease

Control or oversees it. What could be a greater risk to the control of disease than a supervirus coming out of one of these labs that has absolutely no oversight right now. If Dana gets on a plane tonight, that plane took 10 years to get through the FAA. We can spin up a model trying to find a supervirus with open-weight Chinese models, and there's no regulatory body we need to get approval from. This is about incentives and highlights how incompetent and the void of leadership in our administration. So with my rant, Dan, I want you to react to that. First of all, I think that, and I've heard you both talk about this, that it is true that the regulation, the lack of regulation is stunning but not surprising, if that makes sense.

But it's also true that AI didn't just happen in January, January 20th, 2025. I mean, this has been something that has been developed since Joe Biden was in office. And then if you look back on the technology that we all talk about and that we're using right now, I'm sure, and some of these cliffs that will go out is social media. And the Congress and the government totally and completely inept at figuring out how to regulate that. They said it was free speech. Now, at least there is a conversation acknowledging by people other than Donald Trump that this is not a free speech thing. This is a, you know, are we going to be starting the end of the human race?

But it is true that this administration doesn't want to deal and the president doesn't think that this is as big of a problem as the CEOs are saying. But it is also true that this is very much a bipartisan ineptitude. What do you, politically, it feels like I would argue that income inequality, frustration with tech, the fact that tech CEOs have not acquitted themselves well, that filled this empty vessel of data centers. It feels like it's about to fill this empty vessel of a. This does feel like it's about to become a populist issue from both the left and the right. Your thought? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Are you talking about data centers or just the threat of AI? It's all like one. It's all one thing now. I mean, everyone is just saying there's the stuff we don't understand and it's scary, I think. No, no, I totally agree. And with data centers, obviously, the NIMBY part of it feeds into it. Like, you know, don't, you don't want to build it. We don't want it to be built in our backyard because of high energy costs, because of environmental issues, because, because.

But I totally agree with you, Jessica. I think it's all one thing. and it is about finding a place to put your fear. And in the case of AI, if you listen to the people who built it, the fear is justified. But sorry, I mean, you can't get it in the heads of these guys. But it feels like the boys that cried Wolf a little bit late here. They knew what they were doing, right? This has been in process.

And the whistleblowers, if that's what we would call them, or, you know, the folks who've been speaking up in the last few weeks and then doing the requisite interviews afterwards have had concerns about it for a long time. And you've seen the odd interview, right, with Sam Altman talking about it or Dario. Like, do they want to set up this showdown with the government? Because, you know, Trump, I read Vance's comments. Trump has come out and said, we're not regulating it. He's, you know, he's sticking to his guns there. Do you get a sense of where the company is actually what their authentic desire is, because it seems like you could argue both sides of it. I think that what Scott said is said on about the fact that they want to have deniability

when and if nothing gets done and the shit hits the fan. But it's also about, it's the same reason I think, you know, Mark Zuckerberg was asking for regulation of social media. It's so that there's a level playing field so that they're all, nobody's pulling back. at the expense of their own profits while others say, no way, I'm not doing it. You can't, I mean, they can't regulate themselves. It's just, it's just not how human beings work, right?

It's not how business works. Yeah, we've never had a trillion dollars successfully regulated self. Self-regulation is usually a smokescreen to trying to stave off actual regulation as this is. Support for the show comes from article. Social media will have you believing that everyone, but you has a magazine-worthy home filled with stylish decor. Well, we all know that's not true. Actual style comes from slowly curating your home over time

rather than rushing to get it camera ready. So when the time comes that you do need to replace a piece of furniture in your home, check out article. Every article item is thoughtfully designed to make your space feel cohesive and stylish. I know about this firsthand because I have been shopping at articles since before they were advertisers on the show, so you know that I genuinely like them. You can start small and get a little piece,

Like I have a great coffee table from them and a side table. So I could even go smaller. I have a lot of really good stuff and a lot of that is article. With Articles 30-day satisfaction guarantee, you can shop with confidence, knowing that if you're not completely in love with your new furniture, you can easily return it. This piece of mind ensures you can invest in your home without hesitation. Article is offering our listeners $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more.

To claim, visit article.com slash moderates, and the discount will be automatically applied at checkout. That's article.com slash moderates. for $50 off your first purchase of $100 or more. Support for the show comes from Zok-Doc. You know that nagging feeling where there's something important on your to-do list, but you just can't bring yourself to do it? For a lot of us, that thing is a doctor's appointment.

It's not your fault. Navigating the medical system can be soul-destroying, and that's putting it lightly. It's hard enough to find a doctor who's in network. Then there's the challenge of actually getting in touch with their office. The whole thing is exhausting and disheartening, but it doesn't have to be that way. Zoc Doc lets you search and compare high quality in network doctors.

They have more than 150,000 providers with 200-plus specialties across all 50 states. Zocdoc's website has tons of reviews from real patients and detailed doctor profiles to help you choose the right one. You can see actual appointment openings and click to instantly book a visit. Appointments happen fast, usually within 24 to 72 hours, sometimes even same day. And Zoc Doc is free to use. Your health matters and taking care of yourself shouldn't be complicated. Ready to be seen? Head to Zocdoc.com slash moderates to get started and check that appointment off your to do list.

That's Z O-C-D-O-C dot com slash moderates. Support for the show comes from quince. Fall is the perfect excuse to bring back the clothes you've been missing all summer. Maybe a favorite pair of corduroys, a crisp long-sleeve shirt, or the boots you end up wearing everywhere. These are the kind of versatile, high-quality pieces Quince specializes in. Quince makes elevated everyday essentials using premium materials like Mongolian cashmere, organic cotton, and washable silk. Plus, everything at Quince is priced 50 to 80% less than similar brands.

Our producer Eric receives some stuff from Quince, and this is what he thought. Jess, the stuff I've gotten from Quince has been awesome. A pair of slacks that are made of tough rip-stop material and clothes with a drawstring, but look really professional. and great casual basics like long-sleeve teas in quality fabrics like marino wool. These clothes are nice. Find your next fall favorites at Quince. Download the Quince app for app exclusive offers or go to quince.com slash moderates.

Get free shipping on your order and 365-day returns. Now available in Canada and the UK too. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E.com slash moderates. I want to move on to something more fun. Mitch McConnell. I heard he was spotted at an olive garden with Diane Feinstein. True? No, because Diane Feinstein is not with us anymore.

That's the humor in it, Dana. That's it. Thoughts on Mitch McConnell supposedly being close to return. Have you heard anything? No. I think here's what I know. According to the people who say that they talk to him, he wants to come back. He is, I don't know if you are.

So does Alan Cranston. What does that mean? Yeah, yeah, exactly. He wants to come back and he, how do I put this? He's a man of a certain age who is very proud and doesn't want to be seen in the physical state that he is in. But let me ask you just a tactical question than a broader question. He's clearly not even capable of recording a 15 second voicemail. of saying,

Speaker Johnson, I look forward to seeing you back. Even that would give a lot of credibility to the notion that he's okay or at least capable of coming back. He has not even been able to record a 10 or 15 second voicemail. It's concerning.

I see no evidence that he's effectively not entirely disabled right now. It seems to me that it just seems obvious that he's not even capable of even communicating at the most basic level. Have you heard anything to the client? contrary? Yes. I mean, I've talked to people who say that they have talked to him on the phone, communicated with him. Not Scott Jennings, incredible people. Including Scott Jennings, including Scott Jennings.

Having said that, I agree with you that this is such a thing, rightly so, that there's really one easy way to put it to bed, which is to talk to camera or talk to, you know, talk to. You know, talk to. to a reporter. Sit down with Dana Bash. I will say that when I first started covering the Senate, I remember Strom Thurman.

He was there, air quotes, but he wasn't there. He was being wheeled around by his chief of staff who was effectively the senator. Dad Cochran was there,

but not there. I mean, there is a sad and long history of members of, of the elected United States Senate and also the House staying longer than they should. I mean, you mentioned Diane Feinstein.

I sort of laughed. I remember doing a piece. She was the first interview I did for this online series. I had badass women of Washington. And I remember sitting in her beautiful home at San Francisco and she was deciding whether or not she was going to run for re-election, which ended up being her last term.

She didn't finish. And she said, I'm going to stay as long as the old being holds up, and it didn't. And, you know, this is another thing that makes people very mad, that they want representatives who can actually represent. I mean, this is like the lowest level, right? Like being alive is. Science is winning in a bad way.

Just before Jess starts asking questions about the book, I'm just curious if you see any momentum or possibility. that we might have something resembling term limits or age-gating. I mean, the first thing that goes in cognitive decline is your ability to recognize cognitive decline. My dad was convinced he could drive an F-1 car about the time we took his driver's license away. There's just the recognition of what's going on declines.

Yep. That's the first thing to go. Yep. Do you see? No, I don't see it. I think the answer is no. But what I do see is more and more the voters making those decisions. But it doesn't always happen.

Like Ed Markey in Massachusetts is 80. 80. And look, he's very vibrant and he's very sharp. He now is going to have a six-year term where I guess he'll start when he's 81 and the end of the term will be 87. God willing, he'll be fine. But, you know, there the voters decide. I didn't know. Yeah. Because if it, I was saying, if it had been Iiana Presley, I think they would have taken her in a flash that it was a Seth problem, more than an affirmation of an 80-year-old

Markey. Yeah. Which I'm sure makes Congressman Moulton feel even better about it, that they would rather risk having to do a funeral midterm. It is true. But I will say that like the through line of everything we're talking about now is candidates do matter and what they do in office matters. And a lot of these members of the House and also Senate who are successful despite age, despite differences of party and an ideology, is constituent services. It's like the most unsexy term ever. But I don't think we do enough talking about that because it does matter. When you help somebody in your district or in your state, when your office is the place that they can call when they say, I need something, it goes a long way. And that is what they're supposed to be doing.

That's what's going on with John Ossoff right now. That's exactly right. Like the Republican mayors that are crossing over are, you know, they represent people, farmers, you know, traditional Republican voters who are saying, I can get him on the phone. I can get literally him on the phone, not just his office on the phone whenever I need him. Yep. That goes a long way. Yeah. He also gives a banger of a speech.

I want to talk about your book, which was awesome. And we have that fun connection that your co-author I grew up with. We lived in the same building. So I loved. So funny. He's the best. David Fisher is the best. He really is.

And the book totally shines. And I was struck before you get into the elections themselves or, I mean, they're not all elections, but we can talk about. that. Yeah. You like history, obviously. Your last book was about a historical event as well. But at this moment, when everyone is so obsessed with like refresh and, you know, what's happening right this second. And if you're into politics, you're following the horse race, right? And every day there's a new slew of polls. And you're like, well, what does this mean? What does this mean? You know, is it going to be our year in Texas, et cetera? why did you guys think we should do a historical book now? And what do you think it can tell us about our present moment?

Because you end in 94 is your last election that you guys cover. With Mandela, right, exactly, Nelson Mandela. Well, first of all, we ended in 94 mostly because from there on, we felt was too much present day to give a historic look on it. But I think that it's such a good question, Jessica, and the answer is, you know, every time people go to the polls, they're told, this election matters more than any other in a generation or in my lifetime. And usually that's just not true. But sometimes it is. Sometimes there is an election or elections, whether it is for a party, for a parliament, whether it was Martin Luther, King to run the organization that was in charge of the bus boycott in Alabama. There are elections that have consequences well beyond what you even think will happen as an immediate result of the election, but also well beyond your lifetime.

And so it was just sort of an interesting exercise for us, first of all, to go into these 15 because they're, by definition, subjective. There are lots of elections that are consequential in different ways. But we chose different ones that have different kinds of impacts and have had different kinds of impacts on what happened locally, but also well beyond that. But I think the bottom line is it's a reminder that whether or not you think it's the most consequential of your lifetime,

it's important to participate because it is a privilege to be able to participate. know that sounds corny, but it's true. When you look at elections that are quote-unquote were consequential, what is it about the election that makes it consequential? Is it the candidates? Is it the moment in time? Give us the criteria that we're the filter for when an election is consequential or not. Different answers to that question. By and large, it's that the candidate's election changed the course of history somehow. the candidate's ascension to power changed the course of history somehow. It's not always good.

I mean, Adolf Hitler is in this book because the Nazi party was elected through a democratic process. And then he became chancellors, we all know. And then he made himself president and then the rest is history. Adams versus Jefferson. Those were obviously two monumental,

iconic figures. But we chose that, not because it was Adams versus Jefferson, but because it was the first real contested election of the new United States of America. And it turns out that there was a problem with Constitution that they had to overcome because there was a tie because they didn't realize that if you put the president and the vice president not on the same ticket, it could get screwed up, which they fixed later with the constitutional amendment. but it could have really dissolved the United States of America if they didn't figure that out, and they did. So there are different answers to that question, but overall it's the impact that the election had on the future for good or bad. And do all of those moons lining up, does it feel as if this is going to be that consequential an election?

The midterms are 28. If you look at the past ones, do you think, well, this is – the moons are lining? up again? I don't know about 26, but I do think 28. I really do because we are in such a specific time with Trump and Trumpism that has been with us for a decade, that either we're going to totally change course or we're going to stay in the kind of governing and government that he has set up. I personally think that he is a unique figure and that whether it's J.D. Vance or Marco Rubio or, you know, Ted Cruz, they just, even if they try to get away with the stuff that Trump gets away with, I don't think they'll be able to do it. It's just not the same. But even if they try,

it will set this country up and then by extension the world up for something that is, I don't know that it will be able to sort of come back in the way that we grew up with this America. Support for the show comes from Upside. You work hard for your money, so shouldn't your money work hard for you? Gas, groceries, eating out. These are all things that you'll find on your credit card statement. But Upside provides a way to get cash back every single time you fill a tank, hit the grocery store, or go out to eat, making your money work for you. The free Upside app gets you cash back on gas.

groceries and dining. The three things draining your wallet right now. Here's how it works. You simply open the app, claim an offer, pay with your card like normal, and get paid. That's it. And yes, it's cash back. Not points you'll never use, not credits that expire. It's just real money you transfer straight to your bank account. Upside has given back $1 billion to its users. To find out how much you could earn, download the free upside app and use promo code moderates to get an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas. That's an extra 25 cents back for every gallon on your first tank of gas using promo code moderates. Are you a pet owner?

Every six seconds, a pet owner in the U.S. gets hit with a vet bill over $1,000. Always an unwelcome surprise. That's where Fetch comes in. Fetch is the most complete pet insurance for dogs and cats, according to consumer advocate.org. You get paid back up to 90% of vet bills. at any vet in the U.S. and Canada, with claims paid back in as a little as two days. Go to fetchpet.com slash save right now for your free quote.

That's fetchpet.com slash save. Ryan Reynolds here for MintMobil with your summer price forecast. Now, unfortunately, we're seeing rising costs across the country with possibility that big wireless hates you 100%. Now, over here at MintMobil, we're seeing sunny skies and dropping prices. every plan to just $15 a month. Give it a try at minmobile.com slash switch. Upground payment of $45 for three months, $90 for six months, or $180 for 12-month plan required.

$15 per month equivalent. Taxes and fees extra. New customer offer for initial plan term only greater than 50 gigabytes may slow when network is busy. See terms. I'm curious, Dan, and then Jess, how people get elected has changed. It used to be, you know, my sense is, you know, JFK's dad had a role in his getting elected. Definitely. And maybe not the most democratic of rules that obviously money appear to be playing a bigger part.

Or is it, is it now candidate charisma and going direct to consumer with social media? Is it party, you know, the party machine that a lot of people would say in 16 kind of ordained Hillary versus, you know, or coordinated or versus a competition? I'll put it to Dana first, but Jess, and I want your view. how has the industrial machinery of how we bubble up the nominee and ultimately the president changed over time? In some ways, it hasn't changed that much, Scott. Julius Caesar was elected because of money, because of money in politics. It kind of started then. He had a whole bunch of supporters who were rich, and he came from a wealthy family,

he needed more money. And there was, you know, overt or not so overt, you know, bribery. And by the way, one of the main reasons why Julius Caesar ran at the end for the big job was because he was trying to avoid prosecution. Because he was going to be put in jail. So as much as things change, they stay the same. I think each election has a different. a different vibe, a different answer to that question, but all of the components that make elections so wonderful and also so gross are all there, throughout history and throughout different elections.

I'm curious, yeah, this is an extension of it, so I'm kind of cheating a bit. I'm not answering Scots, but adding onto it. The element that we're all concerned about for the 2020, I mean, the midterms to some degree, but then 2020 is cheating. And people invalidating, trying to invalidate election results,

like intimidation at the polls to downright, trying to throw out votes. And you mentioned at the top that you could say more about what's going on in the struggle over allowing mail-in voting. What does history, you know, from your data set or from a more broader look even than beyond those 15 say about elections when somebody is trying to subvert them in various ways.

And I'm curious what you think about, because I've been in talking about my own book and it's a lot about understanding the way the other side thinks. And I've shifted to not only considering what the positive affirmation of the candidate is. So like, what is it that you like about Donald Trump? but what is it that what you're afraid of signals about what kind of voter you're going to be? And I have found that it underlies more than I had hoped in explaining elections, both here and abroad and I worked on British election before I moved home after grad school. And it was all about the fear factor. There was actually very little positive affirmation of any candidate. So I guess that's kind of two-parted.

But what about the, you know, the concerns over whether you have a free and fair election? And then also fear as this animating factor in why people turn out or make the choices that they do. I think those are actually connected in today's times because fear is how President Trump got elected. You know, we went from hope to fear. very starkly from Obama to Trump and an anger and grievance and he still employs that

every day and the flip side of that is the fear of him, the fear what he will do and the fear, what if he goes another two years the rest of his term unchecked without a Democratic Congress.

But I also think the fear now is kind of circling back to what we were talking about. It's fear about my life, about my ability to buy a house, fear about AI, about data centers, about all of those. And I think it's fear and frustration. And so, and the fact that we have social media and echo chambers and nobody gets out of their sort of lane except for people like you, Jessica, it amplifies it so much that fear.

I'm curious with you, two questions, and I'll try and be Chris. One, I see you as a centrist. I think one of the reasons I enjoy coming on your show and speaking to you is I see you squarely, and I don't know this, but my impression is that you're pretty squarely in the middle that you're a centrist. I get the sense, and part of this is being defensive because I'm getting attacks so much, there's no room for centrist anymore that everybody hates you. Do you either piss off the people on the progressive side? It's like this apostate mentality.

We thought we could trust you and they feel betrayed. And the right just sees you as just a libtard idiot. There is literally no room in the middle anymore. Thoughts? No room in the middle. And yes, I don't even know that I would describe myself as a centrist because I've only been a journalist my whole adult life. So I've never, I mean, I'm a registered independent. but I don't have the ability to sort of, in my mind, make decisions about my point of view,

truthfully. I know you're going to say that's ridiculous. There are some things that I have an opinion on, but I'm so trained to look at all the sides and all of the arguments that, so that is the answer. Yeah, I think being objective, but also objective about truth and facts, not just objective about different parties' ideology is right. Of course there's no room for the middle. But the weird thing is there's such a huge hunger for the middle.

For people who, yeah. So I think that the answer is there's no room for the middle in where we see that reaction that you just described online because that's not the kind of action and reaction that is amplified and that is applauded online. But I do think it exists. And the question is, who is going to be the person that has enough zhuz? Yeah.

It has enough of a personality who can break through that and be that figure who's going to end up in the next book because they just broke the cycle. I think that that person could be out there. This is more anecdotal. And then I'll let Jess wrap us up. But when I was just out of grad school, I thought, I need to take my sister to D.C. to be a good big brother and took her all this, you know, it took her to see Representative Pelosi, and we just had a great few days in D.C. And I felt like such a good big brother. She called me and said, I've taken an internship with a representative from Florida. And of course, it ended up being the most crazy fucking right weirdo.

And I'm like, that is not why I took you to Washington. Anyways, but I used to go visit her a lot in D.C. And this is probably 25 years ago. And I remember thinking this is the funnest town. Yeah. And we used to go out with people. We didn't know who they we're working for or why they were working for them. And it might have been just the age we're at, but when I go down now, it just feels ugly. It feels like occupied Vichy France, where it's like, okay, are we French, are we German? Are we, it feels, and I don't know if it's a function of as I get older and I'm more depressed and I'm just, I'm just not as fun as I used to be, or if things have changed that radically, the vibe on the ground, your thoughts?

I think you're not going to the right bars. There you go. There you go. There That's what I need. I need a pro. I need a Sherpa. We'll take you. But it does feel different. I wouldn't go to Vichy, France. I wouldn't go that far.

But it does feel different. But I do think it's also because I've gotten old. I think the youngs do still hang out with each other. They still have a good time. They still figure it out. Yeah. They still drink enough to have a good time. Last question.

Of the 15 elections that you cover, what do you think is the most interesting? for our listeners. For your listeners, I think, that's a good question. I will choose the election of Sun Yetsan in China because I didn't know much about it. Shame on me.

But it was the small window between having the emperors. He wrote the art of war, didn't it? Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, no, no. He was elected in the first. small window when that happened between all of the centuries of having emperors and the Communist Party. And he got himself elected, but it didn't, the democracy didn't last long. And then that led to the

Communist Party. So China's kind of a big deal. And I learned a lot about him. Awesome. Let's leave it there. Dana, thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. You are so welcome. As all of you know, Dan, Dan, is CNN's chief political correspondent and the anchor of Inside Politics and State of the Union. Dan is also the author of the new book,

The Elections That Change the World, 15 pivotal moments that shaped how we live, which comes out September 22nd, Dan, it's always wonderful to see you. Thank you, you too. And Jessica, I am hoping that the pre-order of your book works and that it arrives at my doorstep tomorrow. You can't wait.

Well, and there's another one coming your way, too. It was great to see you, and we'll be cheering you on next week. I adore you both. Just thoughts. I think that it is bold for people who work in our current politics to be writing about history because everybody is on the, this is what I know, train about what's going on right now, and you're all going to get mad at me because maybe I held it for a few months,

and I should have told you. And Dana and David Fisher's book, they're actually trying to tell you. you something about why we are where we are today. And the underlying message of how important your vote is could not be more important. So I was told to read it. And I'm sure a lot of people are going to be buying it. Yeah, I have a lot of, I have a huge respect for Dana because I think she's a dying breed of journalists that just give oxygen to the other side, trying to reporting, do her best not to insert her own views or create a series of gotcha moments. And it's sort of, we're losing that on cable news. I think it got lost a while ago on Fox,

and I think we're slowly losing it on CNN with, you know, shows like I feel stupid or with Abby Phillips, where they're just looking for a series of incendiary moments where one side says something ridiculous and false, and the other side goes apeshit crazy and there's a food fight, like real journalism where you ask a person a thoughtful but not a pointed gotcha question, and then give them space, acknowledge the point, oh, is dignified. It just kind of harkens back to an era of better journalism. And I think while there's still a market for it, it feels like it's being crowded out by kind of crossfire like incendiary cable. Anyways, I hope that, and Dana does well, she gets really strong ratings, but it definitely feels like the other stuff is beginning to overwhelm it, if you will.

Yeah. That makes sense? No, it totally makes sense. I think a lot of people are bemoaning the same transition in media, for sure. Even how she answered when you said, you know, I think of you as a centrist. It's like you're not even supposed to be a centrist, as she said. You're supposed to be impartial to. Totally agnostic.

Yeah. But it was fun to have her. I never got to hang with her since we're on other, you know, differing sides of the cable news fence. So it was good to have her. There you go. See at the Y. See you at the Y.

See you at the Y. Running a business shouldn't feel like surviving a software group project. One app for accounting, another for inventory, another for sales, and somehow none of them talk to each other. That's where Odo comes in, an all-in-one business management software that brings every part of your business together. From sales and accounting to inventory and marketing, all in one powerful platform. No messy integrations, no bouncing between tabs, and best of all, no spreadsheets.

Stop managing software and start managing your business with one unified system. Try for free today at odu.com slash Vox. That's ODOO.com slash Vox. Support for this show comes from CoreWeave. Everywhere you look, AI is expanding what we thought was possible, and at the center of it all is CoreWeave. Medical research and diagnosis, education, complex visual effects for movies,

science and technology breakthroughs. Corweave powers AI pioneers around the world with purpose-built tech, building what's never been built before. CoreWeave is the essential cloud for AI. Ready for anything? Ready for AI. To learn more about how CoreWeave powers the world's best AI,

go to coreweave.com slash ready for anything. Support for this show comes from Wix. You can make a great-looking website with Wix, and you can do it your way. Whether you want AI to jump in or prefer to do things yourself, get a custom ready-to-use website in minutes with Wix's AI website builder, or choose for more than 2,000 templates. Get built-in solutions tailored to your business and enjoy easy, fuss-free domain registration. Web hosting included.

Wix powers more than 280 million businesses around the world, because with Wix, you can own your individuality, create freely and scale fearlessly. Ready to create your website? Go to wix.com. That's wicks.com.