Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov - The Anti-Trump Playbook with Tim Miller

Episode Date: December 13, 2024

Tim Miller, the host of The Bulwark Podcast and veteran Republican communications strategist, joins Scott and Jessica to discuss the big questions shaping the future of American politics. Tim shares his sharp insights on the election results, the shifting political landscape, and the ongoing battle against Trumpism. Plus, we hear his take on how Democrats can regroup for 2028.  Follow Jessica Tarlov, @JessicaTarlov.  Follow Prof G, @profgalloway. Follow Tim Miller, @Timodc. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

2025 is going to be a huge year for the tech industry. AI is either going to take over or maybe kind of start to go away. Regulation is going to continue and change the tech industry, or maybe a new president is going to change his mind about how all that is supposed to work. We're going to get new gadgets and new apps and new social platforms competing for our time and attention, and new information about what it means to be a person on the internet and how we should be thinking about that. We have no idea what's coming next year, but on the Vergecast this month, we've decided to speculate wildly anyway.

We're spending our time trying to figure out what's coming next year, what isn't, and what it all means. All that on the Vergecast. Presented by Polestar. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. Support for this show comes from Polestar. Listen wherever you get your podcasts. between the spacious comfort of an SUV and the agile handling of a sports car. For those who need an intuitive infotainment system and a dashboard designed with minimalism in mind, Polestar 3 is for drivers who won't settle for anything less. Book a test drive for Polestar 3 at Polestar.com. How much money do you make?

My name is Vivian Two, better known as YourBridgeBFF and your favorite Wall Street Girlie. My podcast, Net Worth and Chill, is back and better than ever for season two. We've got finance experts and your favorite celebs answering all those taboo money questions you've been too afraid or too embarrassed to ask. With new episodes dropping every Wednesday, you can watch or listen. Sit back and relax and get ready to net worth and chill. Welcome to Raging Moderates. Jessica and I are thrilled to have a very special guest with us today, the host of the Bullwork podcast,

Tim Miller. Tim's a seasoned communications consultant, a former senior advisor to the anti-Trump Our Principles pack, communications director for Jeb Bush and spokesman for the Republican National Committee. He's essentially seen the inside of every major Republican political fight over the last decade. Tim, you've been on the front lines of the anti-Trump Republican movement and have had a front receipt to this wild, weird, and quite frankly, worrisome political era. Let's bust

right into it. Give us your state of play here. If you had to sum up the election results in a couple takeaways and what you think the media or the general sort of kind of the collective wisdom or lack thereof is about what happened, what are the misconceptions? Where are you a contrarian around what took place here? Yeah, that's a good question. First, I'm raging in moderate.

And so you guys, I'm happy. It's a good brand. Nice. This is a place for you. And I'm happy that I feel comfortable and I feel warm. You're home. I do. And that's nice. So, hopefully that reflects my freedom of, in my commentary.

Where am I a contrarian? That's a good question. I guess the main area that I don't, I guess you guys can tell me whether you think this is contrarian or not, but I basically just reject every piece of analysis that democratic insiders obsess over about the tactics of the Harris campaign and whether they had they gone on Joe Rogan or had Kamala done one thing or another thing better that it would have made any difference. I don't really think it would have. We saw a completely even across like almost all demographic groups across red states, blue states, purple states, there was a shift to the right.

I think that that shift happened actually less in the States for the campaign. I know that the shift happened less in the States where the campaign was a practice where there was more TV ads in the swing States, but black voters, Hispanic voters, Latino, Asians, white people, like every group shifted essentially except for college educated white people that live around where we all live. Where you used to live Scott, you're in London now. So like, I think that it should tell you something, which is that there's something broadly structural that is the problem.

I think the open questions remain to be seen. Is that broad structural problem with the democratic party itself and their policy positions? Is it with Joe Biden and his performance as president, or was it completely out of everybody's control and it's just geopolitical forces and inflation and we live in the bad timeline and Trump's the luckiest person in the world? I think that there's probably something to all of those three categories and pretty much nothing to all of the insidery tactical obsessions.

Yeah, I would largely agree with that. I also think Kamala, you know, did the best that she could, but she was a pretty flawed candidate, which I think is why she didn't get out of the 2020 primary, at least on her own or even collect a single vote and all of that. But on the global headwinds piece of this, you know, all of these other incumbents got kicked out across the world, but so did their parties. And that's not really what happened to the Democrats. It was a pretty decent performance, down ballot in the Senate and the House. So how do you explain that one? Do we just go to Trump is the luckiest person on the planet? I'm basically there and have felt that way

for some time, though I was hopeful. Trump is the luckiest person in world history. It's possible that I'm cursed there and have felt that way for some time, though I was hopeful. Trump is the luckiest person in world history. It's possible that I'm cursed and that everyone else is just living through kind of the shrapnel of my personal curse of like a witch or a warlock because of my distaste for Trump and his luck. I think that though, while the Democratic Party brand in the narrow sense might not be fundamentally flawed, as you point out, the House, you end up gaining a seat, do well in those Senate races in the swing states.

Among the broadest part of the electorate, there is issues with the brand. And I think this is really where Trump kind of wins, right? Democrats do well in special elections where you have high trust people that always turn out to vote, want to turn out like this is, that's a group Democrats do well with. Low trust people who are not paying that close of attention, like are really, you know, do think that the Democrats are out of touch with them. I think that Kamala Harris was poorly positioned to reach those people. And again, I don't think it's really the tactics of the campaign. It's just more about her.

I agree with you on that. She just gave off very much typical kind of politician vibes, typical liberal Democrat politician vibes. And I think that the identity element of this wraps in, right? Like the original sin of the Democratic Party and all this might have been that Joe Biden felt that he had to pick a black woman and that he had, and that he picked a black woman who was the obvious successor, which kind of trampled dialogue and discussion within the party about how, about what other options are. So like, to me, I think that, that you can say both those things as one. So like there's certain elements within the Democratic Party that are fine and functional,

but in huge swaths of the country, they're not competitive. And among the lowest info voters that turn out in these presidential elections, they have really turned those voters off over the course of the past five, 10 years. So this is pure speculation, but I want to put forward a thesis. And that is President Biden's narcissism is what really fucked us. And that is when you have, the primaries are outstanding at producing oftentimes outstanding candidates. And they not only produce a person who's the best person,

they produce the best person for that moment. And in this moment, it might've been someone we hadn't heard of that came across as more moderate or conservative, but to essentially go back on his word about being a transition candidate and then saddle an incumbent with 109 days or whatever it was that President Biden should be buried in a crypt that says narcissist

along with Senator Dianne Feinstein or Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Your thoughts? I agree with that. I'm a communal grave. Yeah, I agree with that. I have a lot of contempt for the way that President Biden has acted.

I would add to that, not only then his decision to run, but then once he finally decided not to run after insane amounts of pressure were expended, he didn't give the vice president the leash that she needed to distance themselves from him, right? Somebody that was not narcissistic would have said, you know, Kamala, I screwed this up. I dropped the ball.

I thought I could do it. I had this debate. I failed. I failed you. I failed the voters. I failed the country. You do what you need to do, girl. Like you throw me under the bus if you need to.

You like, if you want me to vouch that you disagreed with the border policy, I'll vouch. Like we can do a joint interview where I was like, whatever, I don't know what it is, but he, he, he was the opposite. He was like, hold on, I'm not going to do that. I don't know about like, we can do a joint interview where I was like, yeah, like whatever, I don't know what it is, but he, he, he was the opposite. He was like hovering over her campaign. And I know from inside sources that the Biden and his people around him would call journalists to like complain when he felt like he was getting snubbed or whatever by the Harris campaign, et cetera.

So, um, absolutely agree with the ego. The one thing I maybe disagree with in this thesis is if you do this full counterfactual, where Biden says in November 2022, I'm not gonna run again, and you have a full primary. Again, I think it's very hard to get past Kamala Harris because of identity issues in the Democratic Party and just how the idea of a white guy beating her,

I think would have caused a lot of ruptures within democratic circles. This is more Jesse's world than mine, so I defer to you. It's uncomfortable for me calling you Jesse, since you're Jessica on the five. But it's more- We're casual here at Raging Moderates. This is more your world than mine,

so maybe you disagree with that. And I think it's also very possible that the Democratic Party would have just listened to the activists, and most of the people that emerged in that the Democratic Party would have just listened to the activists and most of the people that emerged in that primary would have said the right thing to do is to run to Biden's way left on foreign policy and attacked him over Gaza and that that would have become just a total cluster. So I don't know that necessarily it's true that a more electable candidate would have emerged, but the rest of your thesis I agree with.

Well, it does feel like, and everyone is entitled to their secrets, and it seems like voters were harboring a lot of secrets going into this election, probably more so even then in 2016. Like, there was scribbles on the wall, but the writing on the wall was not as clear because we kept seeing data coming back about late breaking voters going for the Harris campaign and all of these moderate voters, a lot of them former Republicans like yourself that were Nikki Haley primary voters, let's say, and just couldn't go home to the Republican Party if Donald Trump was top of the ticket. And that didn't end up

bearing out come election day. A lot of them did go home. We never actually ended up building on more than, what is it, like 22 percent or something like that of the Republican Party that was anti-Trump. That's essentially what it was in the 2024 exit polls. And I'm curious slash obsessed with what happens to people like you. So I've always felt like you guys are the most high end rental I've ever had in my life, right? Like that you're the Bentley of rentals. And going forward, like Trump, I mean, if he has his way,

I'm sure he'll be on the ballot in 2028, but let's suppose that he's not on the ballot in 2028. Where do you think that majority of the folks who feel like you do end up going? Do they stick with Democrats through this or are people looking for an off-ramp if it's a Nikki Haley or even a JD Vance, who might be more palatable to some people, at least on ethical issues than Donald Trump. Yeah. I'm obsessed with this so we could have done a full hour on this. So I will do my best to be brief.

But in short, to defend my people's honor, the Nikki Haley voter types pretty much did, went for, again, we have to look deeper into the data and all this, but based on my eyeing it, on exit polls and just demographics, how she didn't in counties that were there disproportionate of my people. Like, Nikki, Kamala did about as well as Biden did. Like, she didn't lose ground with those former Republican voters. No, but we didn't gain. Yeah, no, you didn't gain.

I thought that we would. Yeah, there was not a lot of gain. And there was then offsetting loss among traditional Democratic groups. And by the way, I keep telling this to Democrats, this is a bad trade. Like trading away working class Barack and Brown people for college educated, like Atlanta suburb, like Wall Street Journal reading guys. Like there are way more of them than there are of us. So don't make that trade. Okay. It's not a good trade. But I don't think that you have to, because my answer to your question is, I think among actual voters out there, if the democratic party

does not go off the deep end, like the trade is made it's over. Like I just, like, when I think of you in my life, I grew up in the Denver suburbs. My high school friend group went, you know, um, everybody went for Bush except for one person. We have totally inverted every, everybody in my high school friend group went for Kamala except for the person, the other person, the one person flipped over to Trump. Right. So like we, like that is what happened.

All of my friends' wives, um, are like rat, like we're not, they, they weren't all Republicans, some of them, they were, it was mixed, but among the ones who were Republicans, they are like rabid Democrats now. Like this, it just among regular people that live in America, that are in the suburbs, that aren't obsessed with politics, that are, that are college educated, like white, white voters that Democrats are, are doing better with. The types of people that show up to school board meetings and are high trust, et cetera. I just, I think the trade has been made.

Like those people are Democrats now, unless the Democrats nominate AOC and the, you know what I mean? Like, unless there's another shift and like the Republicans nominate Nikki Haley. I just, I don't see that happening, but I don't have a crystal ball. I think the Republicans have now permanently shifted

into this more working class, MAGA nationalist party and their gains are all with working class voters and Democrats have to figure out how to offset those gains. And that's Democrats main priority. And I think that as long as they don't do so in a manner that just totally alienates the voters that came over over the last six years, like most of those voters are Democrats now, um, and the ones who are like George Will or whatever, like there's a disproportionate number of like people who are deep with deep conservatives who

just hate Trump. You're gonna lose those people but those people mostly exist in like the commentariat not out among real Americans. Tim, looking at the nominees or the cabinet nominees here specifically let's look at Hegseth, Gabbard, RFK Jr., what are your thoughts on who gets confirmed and who doesn't? Yeah, I just, I like to admit what I'm wrong about things. So I thought they were all gonna get confirmed. I thought Gates was gonna get through.

And so the question that I have is- It's a dark place you had. The question that I have is, was my priors wrong about that because the fact that Trump can't run again, supposedly, is going to give some Republican senators, particularly the older guard senators, are going to retire a little more spine than they had last time? Or was my prior wrong on that because they just hate Matt Gaetz so much on a personal

level that he was the exception that proves the rule? I think that that remains to be seen. I expect them to get through. I think that I was just in Iowa, for example, over the weekend. I was at a funeral for a former Republican co-worker's wife. So there's a lot of Republican operative types there. And so I was asking all of them about this. And there wasn't a single person, they're all more Republican in good standing than I am these days. There wasn't a single person there who thought Joni Ernst, who's the Iowa senator, who's been the key person kind of threatening to tank Hegseth because of her advocacy for sexual assault and his

comments about women in the military and his alleged sexual assault. And there wasn't a single person there that thought that Joni Ernst, when push came to shove shove would tank him. Now, could other things come out in the next month that make any of those three nominees just unacceptable because it's just such a bad fact that emerges? Sure. Like something else could happen. Trump nominated these guys really early. There usually isn't a two-month runway of controversy. So I think that could happen.

But I think if anyone that actually makes it to a floor vote will get confirmed, I guess would be the way I would put it. Yeah. Wow. And I did. I felt that way when I saw Ernst's statement after her last round of meetings with Pete, where she basically inferred that he said he would stop talking shit about women in combat roles. I was like, okay, well, she got what she wanted out of this. And everyone keeps beating their chest. Like Trump has a right to his nominees. And yeah, that is completely true, but I can't remember someone who picked so many people that were unqualified for these jobs. Scott and I have a particular bee in our proverbial bonnet about Tulsi Gabbard.

Why isn't your bee in your bonnet about your colleague, Pete Hicks, or is it because you're hoping that a Democrat might appoint you as based on your experience as a television host? Like you could be a cabinet official in the future, Jesse, this way we're going. I have no bronze stars to speak of. You also don't have a rape test, anyways.

Charming guys. Sorry, couldn't resist. Sorry, couldn't resist. Try, I've been begging you to resist my man. There you go. No, Tulsi and I've had an issue about her since Russia Today or whatever called her our girlfriend. I was like, this is obviously a problem.

And watching what's going on in Syria where she had been effusive about the misunderstandings that we have about Bashar al-Assad and talking about how the people in Syria actually like him, et cetera. The idea that we could have someone as DNI that is not going to engender information sharing amongst allies is deeply frightening to me. And Scott and I have been saying that she is the most, besides Gates, and then that one pretty quickly. And now I guess we'll be able to watch him

on One American News. But she was the most troubling in all of this. And you really don't think that there's going to be any problem for her getting through with her record on security issues? I just wanna say, personally, I think cash is the most troubling, so maybe if you want to get to that, we can.

Um, I'm also deeply worried about Tulsi. I'll say this though, Tom Cotton came out and said that Trump should have his choices. If someone is going to stop, you know, it's like, you could imagine a person that would say, no, sorry, this is too far for me. This goes against my worldview. It would be cotton. I mean, he is a hawk. Like he's a hawks's hawk. And this anti-Russia, anti-Assad, like the idea that he would want her to be there to me seems absurd. And so I think that shows you where the wind is blowing on this

stuff. And I guess there's some room, some buzz that Bernie might even support her, which would give another vote of, you know, buffer. I also agree. I mean, I think I had Michael Weiss on the Borg podcast the other day, and he's talking about talking to, uh, you know, he reports in intelligence world. He's talking to foreign intelligence officials. They're like, we might not like be cautious about sharing stuff with, for a little while with America, cause we don't know where that's going to go. It is a ridiculous choice, alarming for sure. But like, where is the outrage? I mean, not to, you know, it's your show, but turning it back on you, like you would

think that Fox, like there'd be people at Fox that would be outraged by this, right? I mean, like she is, she is hostile to Hannity's worldview, to my old friend Dana Parino's worldview, to all the, like anyone that is a strong national security, you know, pro freedom agenda type Republican, you would think would be horrified by her. I'm not seeing it. So I don't know if that's just because behind the scenes she has just won folks over or if it's they know that Trump is going to fight for her and so it's not worth the political

capital or if people have just been so beaten down by the Trump era. But to me, I don't see where the resistance to her would even come from at this point. So some of this, this might not be as much optimism as the desire for a kind of a blood offering or revenge. To talk a little bit about 2026, it feels to me like all the moons are lining up for Democrats to score pretty big gains in the House and the Senate. Your thoughts? Senate map is tough. So I guess that's one thing that I would throw out there. I do think that the Senate map is tough for Democrats in 2026. The House, I agree. I mean, I think it was Dave Wasserman, I don't have it in front of me,

but it was something like 7,000 votes swung the House. Like, you know, it's three districts, you know, that were all just super, super close. And if you look at the districts, one of them is the kind of Colorado, but ex-urbs that I was talking about earlier, one of them is Iowa, a district that I know quite well, one of them is California, ex-urbs. Like there are all the types of things that you would think would swing. I think a lot of this will depend on like what Trump actually does. Right? I, there are two theories of the incoming Trump presidency.

One is kind of that, you know, he wants, it's the, what the Trump wall presidency where he wants to golf. He builds a couple miles of it, puts out some press releases and bleats and talks about how great the things are, the deportations are and the tariffs are, but he doesn't actually really enforce them in a way that would affect people's day-to-day lives. And if that is the way we go, you know, maybe the things don't line up quite as well for the Democrats. If we go down the path of mass deportations, you know, we have people in camps, we have a 25% tar off on Canada and Mexico.

That's going to impact prices of the grocery store. Go down the list. Um, then yeah, I mean, I think that there, again, Democrats do well in midterms because the types of people that turn out in midterms are more aligned with Democrats, um, and two, there'll be that category of Trump voter that didn't really sign up for all of that. That just was unhappy with inflation that you would assume would either then not vote or swing back.

So I think that sure, it could go well for Democrats, but I don't think that's guaranteed. AMT – Navigating a Trump presidency that I feel was chosen more than 2016. Like 2016 was like taking a flyer on him. This was intentional, right? That people were like, I know what this is and I am choosing it again. Brings with it new challenges for Democrats. And you see a lot of the big name governors having pretty open struggles with what should we do? Like the Gavin Newsom's of the world who's on a tour of all the counties that voted for Trump and he's talking about, you talking about Trump-proofing his state,

but also trying to figure out ways that you can work with the administration. And we have the Doge Caucus and people saying like, all right, well, we've got to at least show the people that we represent who voted for this guy that we have some sort of interest in building these bridges. How much bipartisan activity

do you think there actually will be? And what will the implications be for future elections? Because that's something that concerns me. Because I think, yes, you should always do what's best for the constituent. But also, I'm a partisan that wants to win. I think Democrats do governance better.

I think the economy performs better under Democrats. And I'm deeply frightened of an election where he gets to stand up there and say like, look at all my stuff. Look at the things that I did and it will have been off of Democrats backs that made all this possible. And they'll think that he's the second coming again. So I guess he's the third coming now.

We are aligned. We're the same person? No, we're aligned on this issue for sure. I'm deeply- We're the same person? I'm about that. We're aligned on this issue for sure. I'm deeply concerned about the, I interviewed Mikey Sherrill, who's a great congresswoman. I'm so excited about her run. She's awesome.

She's a moderate congressman. She's running for governor of New Jersey. I like her. But I asked her about that. So I was like, how much do you plan on working with these guys? Like, are you gonna help them fund the government? Are you gonna help them?

And she kind of implied that like, yeah, we're going to work, you know, we have obligations to our constituents. And I look at this and it's like, they want everything, make them govern, show people what it really looks like. And I don't get why you would do, you know, why you would, you know, partner with that. I mean, sure. I guess if you want to partner with them on Doge to try to work on some niche thing that you care about that could bring efficiencies or bring something to your district. Okay. But on the big ticket items, their deportation plans, like the tax cuts,

the funding, let them try to do it. I need a narrow house majority. And I think one thing that makes me different culturally from my new allies in the Democratic Party is just the agreeableness scale among Democrats is way higher. Democrats are way... Like we're all kind of drug. Yeah, Democrats are just agreeable. I think maybe that's... There's some natural selection to this.

To do well in elite environs, you need to be kind of agreeable and go along and find solutions. And a lot of Republicans were like, no, F this, burn it down. And I'm, and that's so culturally I come from that side. And so I don't, less agreeableness I think would be valuable for Democrats in Washington. Though I will say one quick thing about the governors. Sure. Trump proving their state is fine.

You should try to do that to the extent possible, but these governors should focus on making their state places that people want to live. And like, this is my number one complaint with my new friends on the democratic side. It's like, people are fleeing blue states because it's too expensive to live there. And like the 2030 census is going to make the electoral map even worse for Democrats if they don't make their states places that people want to come to, where that are economically dynamic. So if I was Gavin Newsom or Mikey Sherrill or any of these people, assuming Mikey Sherrill

wins, that is what I would be focused on if I was them. So just as we wrap up, Tim, predictions on who you think the 2028 Republican and Democratic nominees for president will be? That's funny. I had a gag when I got this question out before the election where my answer was always Kamala Harris and Donald Trump. Good figuring that Trump would run again at 82. But since Trump has won, I think that it's JD's to lose.

I think that he's really kind of navigated that well. But that said, Republicans want outsiders. And so if somebody like Tucker or some compelling outsider ran, I think that that would be compelling to the Republicans. So I would worry about that. I do not think it's a Nikki Haley, Glenn Young can type. It is not. Republican voters want a populist type candidate. So it'll either be Vance, a Trump family member, some outsider. The Democrat one is tougher, man, because Democrats have been voting for the most electable candidate and trying to do that,

and being strategic about it in a lot of elections. Like their left wing has not been as successful in primaring people and stuff as the Republicans right wing has. Does that change after this election? It's something that I feel unsuited to really judge, um, since that's kind of not exactly my people, because I think that, um, the Democrats are really going to want to look for somebody that presents themselves as a winner, but as a fighter, somebody can fight and take down the

right. And if, and, and if they can find a centrist type person of Josh Shapiro or whatever, Gretchen Whitmer can position themselves like that, then they can win. If they can't and they look too much like a weenie establishment type, then somebody like somebody from the left is going to win the primary. And so I just, so I would look to democratic moderates to be inspired by the raging moderates podcast. I think a raging moderate has a good chance of winning next time. A mealy mouthed moderate does not. Yeah. I always feel like we get a bad rap for like five really loud people on the left. Like,

oh my God, you guys are a bunch of communists. And then we're like, please meet Joe Biden or like, you guys, you know, it's like being inists. And then we're like, please meet Joe Biden. Or like, you guys, you know, it's like being in Cuba over here and we're like, meet Hillary Clinton or whatever. And I feel like the biggest impediment to success on the left is this hatred of wealth and capitalism that becomes this huge talking point. And I'll be interested to see if like a Mark Cuban

or someone throws their hat into the ring and if we can, you know, pick our own billionaire type who can definitely talk, you know, as loudly as a Donald Trump and he, you know, hopefully won't be on the ballot. But I think that that could shake it up. I mean, I used to work for Mike Bloomberg's pollster and when he was in the 2020 primary, I get it, you know, Elizabeth Warren nuked him or whatever and it was unpalatable. But I'm like, that guy is winning. He's going to win the presidency if you send him out. You need to be a compelling communicator though in this day and age.

That was Bloomberg's problem. Like you need to, like, while I don't think that Kamala not going on Rogan mattered, I do think the ability to be able to go into places like Rogan and talk like a normal human is critical. Like I, for example, I really like Wes Moore, but sometimes he sounds very politician-y. Look, if there's any Democrat listening to us to run in 2027, the thing that they should practice the most is how to sound like a normal person and how to sound like not a politician and how to talk to regular people. And so I like, Wes would be in an old world, I think the prime person, it's for the Democrats

to run. And in this environment, it's tough. Like Cuban does I think the prime person, it's for the Democrats to run. And this environment, it's tough. Cuban does talk like a regular person, Bloomberg does not. You have to be able to do that. No, but he's very good at managing things. You're right. We need to go to school for talking like normal people, which probably says something bad about us.

I'm waiting for the time when people will listen to Bill Clinton's advice in broad strokes because every election cycle, he seems to have had advice that was directly ignored from the campaign that could have helped. I'm not saying necessarily would have won, but could have helped. It's like Willie. It's like Willie.

There you go. Tim, this has been really interesting. Really appreciate your time. And I get the sense we're gonna hear and see more of you over the next four years. I got you sense we're gonna hear and see more of you over the next four years. So here we go. We're gonna flip the mics around. Both of you gotta come over to my house soon, all right?

All right, sounds good, Tim. Thanks for your time. Thank you. Thank you.