Raging Moderates with Scott Galloway and Jessica Tarlov - The Democrats Can’t Play Dead (ft. Rep. Seth Moulton)

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

In the wake of the GOP’s budget and policy bill passing, Jessica is joined by Congressman Seth Moulton to talk about what comes next for the Democrats. They discuss what Dems need to do to talk more effectively about their policies and values. Plus, Rep. Moulton talks about the legacy of bipartisan immigration reform, how to both support and criticize Israel at the same time, and — as a former Marine who served in Iraq — he grades Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth’s performance so far. Follow Jessica Tarlov, @JessicaTarlov.  Follow Prof G, @profgalloway. Follow Raging Moderates, @RagingModeratesPod. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

HURRY! What is the rush? I- They're only open until September. What? Le Guanz. Is that why we're in Coburg Beach? Here, here. Order me the Mother Cluckers. A chicken sandwich!

Not just a chicken sandwich, or her chicken! Marinated for 24 hours and tossed in their blend of herbs and spices before they become cold and crispy. Slapped between two Guyanese sweet buns that are toasted to buttery perfection. It's the best chicken sandwich in the world. All right, yeah, that does sound pretty good. You're damn right. This episode is brought to you by Adidas. When the frustration grows and the doubts start to creep in,

we all need someone who has our back. To tell us we'll be okay, to remind us of our ability to believe, because their belief in us transfers to self-belief and reminds us of all that we're capable of. We all need someone to make us believe. Hashtag you got this. Welcome to Raging Moderates. I'm Jessica Charlov. I'm joined today by Representative Seth Moulton,

Congressman representing the North Shore of Massachusetts. He's a former Marine who served four tours in Iraq and has been in Congress since 2015 where he serves on the House Armed Forces Committee. Congressman, thanks so much for being with me today. Welcome to the show. It's great to be here. Thanks for having me. Yeah, no, it's a pleasure. I want to start, there are so many directions you can go in, but I want to go in the immigration direction first. We're getting new reports of the conditions in Alligator Alcatraz, which is the makeshift ICE facility that they have created outside of Miami. Reports that there is no water to take a bath, people going four days without a shower, one meal a day, maggots in the food.

Wired had a deep dive into the uptick in 911 calls coming from ICE detention facilities. We're seeing increased rates of suicide attempts, sexual abuse, overcrowding, inadequate medical care especially for pregnant women. What is happening here? How did we get to this place and what's your assessment of where we are and how we could possibly make a positive change? What's happening is that this administration fundamentally does not care about American values, doesn't care about following the

Constitution, doesn't care about affording basic protections of the rule of law to people who are required to have it. And that's very dangerous, not just for these poor immigrants who are being detained, some of them unlawfully, some of them wrongly. I worked to get an 18 year old kid out of detention where he was stuck for six days with no shower, no bed, an open toilet, you know, surrounded by dozens of other men. An 18 year old kid who happened to be an honor student,

by the way, like a coach of the girls' volleyball team, I mean, a real model American, and he was accused of violating a visa when he was six years old. It's just absurd. And this administration doesn't care. And it's not just dangerous for these people caught up in this, the families that are being torn apart, the people being whisked off the street as if this were North Korea or Iran,

just because they write something that the president disagrees with. It's not just dangerous for them, it's dangerous for our country's future because it fundamentally violates American values. I totally agree. I worry this is falling on deaf ears. We've seen his approval rating on immigration go down, but generally speaking, people are happy that the border is closed now. They feel like the Biden administration was totally derelict in their duty. And you had an interesting exchange on Bill Maher's show a couple of weeks ago on whether the

border was wide open and how much blame falls at the feet of the Biden administration and the Democrats. Biden let it go too far. This is a backlash to that. We had an open border policy. You would admit that that's where this feeling comes from. Of course it's carried out in a horrible way, but that's where... I think there's a bit of just racism baked into Trump's thing.

There is. There is Democrats. There was also an open border policy. It seemed like under the bite and we couldn't admit it was a problem. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, none of this excuses what Trump is doing. Biden wasn't violating the Constitution. And that's what Trump is doing every single day. What's going on with ice is just despicable. But part of the story for how we got here, just part of how Trump got elected, is that Democrats denied a problem at the border for a

long time. I remember having a conversation with a Democrat on the floor of the House who was running for the Democratic messaging position. And I asked her, how do you think we should talk about the border? And she said, we shouldn't talk about it. I said, what? This is a big issue? No, no, we shouldn't talk about it. You know, Republicans are just weaponizing this issue. We shouldn't talk about it. Well, that's what Democrats did for a long time. We just ignored this problem. We pretended it wasn't an issue. Some Democrats actually got on TV and literally said, there's nothing to see here. It's not a problem.

And that just defies logic and truth. People could see with their own eyes, even in northern communities like I represent up in Massachusetts, that this massive influx of migrants was a problem. The system wasn't capable of handling it. We didn't know who was coming in the country. And it took way too long for the president and his administration to wake up

and start doing something about it, which they finally did at the end of the term. Part of the big decline in immigration that Trump claims credit for is actually started under the last few months of Biden, but he was president for four years and a few months of enforcing laws at the border is not enough.

No, and they always make the argument anyway that people knew that he you know, he was on his way out and they're scared of Trump coming in and there are all sorts of ways to spin it, but it was obviously a lesson learned far too late. Are you feeling confident that Democrats have a plan on how to address this issue, whether that's a bill that we can put forward, if we could get any sort of bipartisan support or really just how we can prove to the American public that we're put forward if we could get any sort of bipartisan support or really just how we can prove to the American public that we're serious about this issue because it's become a

Common theme and I think it's a good thing to talk about this failure of blue state and blue city governance and immigration is a central Plank of what went wrong. I'm in New York City. I know that this happened, right. Just about every American does. And look, it's a nuanced answer to your question because on the one hand, Democrats have been working for decades to get Republicans on board with bipartisan immigration reform. And back in, I think it was 2006, there was a bipartisan proposal supported by President Bush, House Republicans sank it.

House Republicans sank it again, I think around 2012. I don't remember the exact date. And then most recently, there was a bipartisan proposal in the Senate. Actually, the lead negotiator was a Republican. And Trump said, no, I wanna play politics with this for the election. So he wouldn't...

I just swallowed a fly. Oh. Apologize for that. No, you can take a drink. No, it's all good. We'll cut that out. Unless you want it for your like man vibes. It's all good, but I couldn't cough it up so I had to wash it down.

So the thing is that it's continually Republicans who sink every bipartisan proposal. So do Democrats have an idea of what we need to do? Yes. There are some Democrats who are not with most Americans on this, who are essentially extremists on just having an open border, just like they're extremist Republicans as well. But the majority of Democrats know that we need bipartisan immigration reform, and we have been at the table repeatedly over the decades to make this happen.

So the fault long-term lies at the feet of Republicans. But the issue is that because of what's happened over the last four years, Democrats have just lost credibility on this issue. Like people just don't believe that we're serious. And I don't think you regain credibility just by criticizing what the Trump administration is doing. You have to have a forward-looking plan.

And that's why I disagree with James Carville. I mean, I love the guy. He's got way more experience in politics than I do. But when he says Democrats should just lay over and play dead, just purely win the midterms based on opposition to Trump, I'm sorry, but that's not leadership and it's squandering a huge opportunity. And I also think it misses this really necessary point that we've got to admit to the American people. We were wrong.

We were wrong about immigration under the Biden administration. We should have closed the border. We were wrong about inflation saying that it was just going to go away. Remember when the administration said it was transitory? Janet Yellen's finest moment. And then, and then we were terribly wrong when Democrats said, there's nothing to see here, Joe Biden is just fine. How much of a factor do you think that is going to be in future

elections, the Biden factor? Well, here's the point is that we can make a correction here if we just show that we're willing to change. Like, hey, voters, our job is to listen to you and to hear you. And if we show that we can do that, then we have a massive opportunity in these midterms. I mean, for decades, American voters have a massive opportunity in these midterms. For decades, American voters have trusted Republicans on the economy, but Trump is wrecking the economy. He just signed the largest transfer of wealth from poor Americans to wealthy Americans in

American history while slashing healthcare, and now he's raising tariffs. They're going to increase inflation across the board. This is a huge opportunity for Democrats to regain leadership on the biggest issue in every election, the economy. We are now the party of fiscal responsibility, actually. The truth is we've been that party for a while, but we never talk about it.

So we have a huge opportunity here. We have a huge opportunity to take back the mantle of leadership on national security when Trump is using Kremlin talking points from the White House podium. So these midterms are a tremendous opportunity for Democrats, but I think we have to start by saying where we screwed up, being honest, leveling with the American people, and we can't do that if we just ignore what happened in the last election. I totally agree with you. I wonder how much self-flagellation is the right amount because there definitely have been people that have said,

you know, may a culpa, I miss this or I shouldn't have done that. But it's when you talk to the average Democratic voter, the vibe is still you guys fucked us over and are not taking proper responsibility for that. I want to get to frankly, all of the things that you mentioned but to start with the reconciliation bill which just passed razor thin majority. I was hopeful that Lisa Murkowski wouldn't do us dirty and she ended up getting some kickbacks for her own people

and then went ahead and passed it. And I guess, you know, hats off to Mike Johnson that keeps everyone in line at that level. So kickbacks for her own people and then went ahead and passed it. And I guess, you know, hats off to Mike Johnson that keeps everyone in line at that level. I think he's been a far more effective speaker in terms of getting legislation passed than anyone really expected when he came in. Not to interrupt, but I just have to- No, please interrupt. ... back on Mike Johnson.

I think, look, I like Mike. He's a nice guy. Well, you don't have to say that. He will go down as the weakest speaker in American history. Oh, okay. Because he has passed one piece of legitimate legislation. It's the worst bill that I've probably ever voted on, this big, beautiful bill, whatever you call it. But it actually is a legitimate piece of legislation. Just about everything else we voted on has been meaningless messaging bills, many of which we voted on in prior years. Things like deregulating walk-in

refrigerators. That's what we've been spending our time in Washington debating. And he's abrogating his most fundamental constitutional responsibility, which is to stand up to the executive, to be an independent branch of government. So yeah, okay, I'll give you credit that he got these Republicans in line, made them all into total hypocrites for voting against things that they've said 24 hours prior, principles they would never violate. But he's a very, very weak speaker. Okay. I'm revising my opinion or I'm...

I'm sorry, I feel bad for interrupting. No, no, no. You are... I just had to do that point in because I live under this guy every day. No, and the Congress is historically the most unproductive in history. That's right. I just meant that what Donald Trump wants from him, he delivers every single time. You're right. And I see, especially working in conservative media,

that is the prism of everything. Like, your worth to the party is just how good of a henchman you can be for Donald Trump. And that was my point about Mike Johnson. That's right. I mean, the legislative agenda has basically been one bill, but he did get it passed. It's a big bill, though, and it does a lot of damage.

And the damage is trickled out over the next few years. Like I won't say I can't believe it, but the fact that the Medicaid cuts come after the midterms and no tax on tips phases out right after, whereas the tax breaks are the permanent feature of this, is some work of evil genius. What do you think is going to happen over the next year and a half before the midterms

in terms of the effect on the average American, but also what the Democrats can do to make this bill a present part of our lives? Because I think there are gonna be a lot of people who, A, haven't heard about it, we're already seeing that in the numbers. The people who know about it think it's awful, but very few people have heard it on a comparative basis.

I think it was 48% in recent polling. And we've done this game before, right? Where we tell people it's gonna be terrible for you, but they don't feel that right away. And so they could walk into the midterms and just say, maybe it's not so bad. Yeah, it's a great question. And I think you've hit the nail on the head with

the example that you used about how the evil genius in this Republican bill, where they make the good things happen right away and phase in the bad parts after their elections. So if you're not paying attention or you don't understand the details, the nuance, it might be easy just to say, oh wow, you know, I'm not paying taxes on my tips anymore. And that's always been my concern with Donald Trump, is that he does not care about the long-term interests of our country. He only cares about his time in office, his image, and his elections.

And so he's always been someone who can do things for the short term at the expense of the long term. Look, his entire business career was bankrupting businesses. He'd buy a business, extract some money out of it, put it in a terrible financial situation so that it literally went bankrupt, and then get out of it. And I've always thought that that's what Trump would do

with the country is just basically take over America and bank the country. That's exactly what he's doing. First of all, I think Democrats need to talk a little bit more about that simple fact that this bill is increasing the deficit massively. I mean, the debt is gonna go up like $4 trillion. We don't even know the full estimates yet.

It's one of the most fiscally irresponsible bills in American history, but Democrats need to talk about that. You know, that's our opportunity to be trusted on the economy. How can you make that feel real for people though? Like Scott and I, I'm pointing like he's sitting here, he's obviously not here, but Scott and I always talk about how important the deficit is for the daily lives of people, but it's not communicated in those terms people aren't talking about Your interest rates they aren't talking about your mortgage rates. They aren't talking about your rent going up. They aren't talking about prices

They're just using this amorphous thing. Well the deficit and people look and they say well It's already 36 trillion or whatever it is. So yeah, they went and added another 3.8 You know, I don't know that that's true actually, because I think that for a long time, for decades since Reagan, Republicans have effectively talked about the deficit, just connecting it to how you have to balance your own checkbook. Why shouldn't America do that too?

Why should we be passing on bills to our kids and our grandkids? And I think people actually do get that. And they do get that Washington can be really irresponsible with taxpayer money. And so Democrats are always trying to focus on just like the details, like how many people are gonna get cut from Medicare, but that's why even when

democratic presidents have consistently reduced the federal deficit, most people's perception is the opposite. That the deficit goes up under Democrats and down under Republicans, and therefore, Republicans are trusted with the opposite. That the deficit goes up under Democrats and down under Republicans, and therefore Republicans are trusted with the economy. They're trusted with fiscal responsibility. So I think that we should just talk about these fundamentals a bit more,

and trusted American voters can connect them to their lives. Now that doesn't mean we don't talk about the millions who are gonna lose healthcare, the way that massive transfers of wealth are going from poor Americans to wealthy Americans. I mean, I had a constituent come up to me a couple of days ago and he said, Seth, I gotta tell you, this legislation is amazing for me.

I've got two private planes, I get to fully depreciate them. I've got a vacation house on an island and I get a huge tax break there. But he's smiling, he says, I didn't ask for any of that. How about giving my son a little bit of help buying his first home? And by the way, he's a veteran. So we just gotta tell those stories more too,

but we should talk about the big picture implications for this because we are sending a massive bill to our kids and our grandkids that they're going to have to figure out how to pay back while we live high on the hog in the Trump years. We're going to take a really quick break. Stay with us. [♪upbeat music playing in the background.

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Welcome back. Do you think that Democrats have a decent plan for how to counteract the effects of this as much as possible? A lot of the Democratic governors are talking about, you know, Trump proofing their states as much as they can. I had Governor Pritzker on. He's talking about, you know, what health care he can provide for people if they get their Medicaid stripped away, et cetera. And then how are you feeling about the midterms in general? Well, let's start with the midterms. I mean, first of all, I think if we just lay over and play dead, if we just go on reaction to Trump, not going to work, then we're going to win the midterms with a whimper. Yeah,

we'll probably win, but it will be a massive missed opportunity. If instead we do two things, one, we admit that we screwed up. We admit that we are wrong on some things and we're willing to change. And two, we actually capitalize on these big issues. The economy and national security. Take back leadership on those two fundamental issues. People want to feel like they have a chance at the American dream and people want to feel safe. If we can show leadership on those two issues, then yes, we'll take all the anti-Trump stuff to the bank,

but we'll also win over a lot of people who don't just wanna vote in opposition, they wanna vote for something. They don't just wanna vote against Trump, they wanna vote for something new and better. And actually, we can regain the trust of American voters. So the midterms are up in the air right now because we're not showing enough of that leadership

at the moment, but I think we can. As far as Trump-proofing things, look, in this job, I came to this job from my experience in the Marines. I had no interest in politics before. Didn't follow it. Didn't study in school the Marines. I had no interest in politics before, didn't follow it, didn't study in school or anything. I actually got recruited by a nonprofit trying to get veterans to run for office,

to bring hopefully a little bit more selfless leadership to Washington. And I would love to just do a good job every day and that's it. Like just do a good job and get re-elected because people see that you're doing a good job and taking the tough votes and doing the right thing for the country. But the reality in politics is you've got to explain all that.

You got to do a good job, but then you got to tell people about it too. And that's what Democrats need to do a better job of. Trump and the Republicans are relentlessly messaging. Everything from just writing Donald Trump's name on those checks that he sent Americans in their first term to just peddling conspiracy theories and everything in between to push their version of events. I'm not advocating for Democrats to start lying like these hypocritical Republicans,

but I am saying we need to do a better job of getting out there and telling our story. So don't just Trump-proof your state. Explain how Democrats are saving you when it comes to getting your health care back. Are saving you when it comes to being able to get services at the VA. Are saving you when Trump in his big beautiful bill cuts SNAP benefits, food benefits for veterans, tries to take food out of the mouths of veterans. If Democrats provide that assistance, we've got to make sure people know it. Yeah, brag a little.

It feels uncomfortable at first, but people certainly pay attention. Honestly, when I first ran for office, just the simple idea of having my name on a sign, you know, in someone's lawn, it almost felt icky because it's the exact opposite of what you're taught in the Marine Corps. You know, the Marine Corps is all about selfless service, the team, doing the right thing for the country, even if it entails the biggest imaginable personal sacrifice, literally losing

your life. So the idea that you have to go around, you know, promoting what you're doing is kind of antithetical to how I came to this business. Now, look, there are a lot of Democrats who aren't veterans and don't have so much of a problem self-promoting. You know, that's not generally an issue in Washington. But as a party, I think we have a history of thinking we can just do the right thing Obama was sort of you know

Famously known for this like just do the right thing and people will believe you and no you kind of got to get out There and explain why this matters Definitely. I'm thinking back to dating days and good guys finish last. The guy that continually slides into your DMs probably gets the date. So slide into the DMs and get out there. We gotta have some balance, you know? I'm not saying don't be a good guy, you know? Totally.

I actually still believe at the end of the day, good guys could win, but politics is messy. I mean, I think Abraham Lincoln, George Washington, Franklin Roosevelt, John F. Kennedy, they were genuinely good people who had good intentions for America. But look, Donald Trump got elected president. That's just a reality that we face today and we ought to understand how he was able to do that. Absolutely.

You mentioned feeling safe and national security. I want to talk about that a bit more. You've been very outspoken in your criticism of Secretary Hegstas and the halls of Congress in interviews. We have this new story that he seemingly unilaterally stopped arms shipments to Ukraine. The president didn't even know it. He found out in the cabinet meeting yesterday. I always think people should be better briefed.

But can you talk about what you're seeing from our foreign policy apparatus with Secretary Hegstad as well as Secretary of State Marco Rubio? What's the report card in terms of foreign policy and national security right now? Well, on Hegstad, it's Fs across the board. It's hard to believe this guy graduated from Princeton, but I don't really know what goes on down there in New Jersey.

I'll just tell you that- Love the New Jersey shade. As a New Yorker, I get it. It's just unbelievable. I mean, there have been plenty of defense secretaries that I've disagreed with. I mean, even looking historically, like, I don't think there are that many McNamara defenders right now. But I don't think we've ever had a defense secretary who is himself a national security risk to the United States, you know, who just flagrantly

traffics in classified information, went so far as to pipe in unprotected, unclassified internet into his office at the Pentagon so that he could take classified information and share it with his wives or his friends or whoever else. So he is a singular danger to the country. And he's also proving a singular liability to the president of the United States. He's also someone who just is a total sycophant and will do whatever Donald Trump asks. So everyone who's predicted Pete Hagseth's imminent demise so far has been wrong. Now Marco Rubio, I mean, he's kind of a snake, right?

Like it's hard to understand if he has any principles. He seems to change his views on things all the time. He was one of the biggest, loudest defenders of USAID in the Senate, and then just presided over its demise as Secretary of State, to just cite one example. But you do get a sense that at least he's a little bit more competent. He's not just a total idiot like Hegseth in trying to run things. And it was heartening to hear him get in huge arguments with Elon Musk, the sort of second commander in chief there, because clearly behind the scenes at least, Rubio was trying

to stand up for some of the State Department programs that he knows are so important for national security. So as usual, the Trump administration is a bit of a mixed bag. But what you don't have in the second term are the real stalwart experienced leaders like General Mattis like General Kelly People who were really they are not because they supported Trump But because they were trying to keep the ship of state on track, you know, keep it from capsizing I guess you'd say and There's nobody like that in this administration. They've all been purged by Lara Loomer the lunatic

And so as a result like it's just chaos and it's dangerous like that in this administration. They've all been purged by Lara Loomer the lunatic. And so as a result, like, it's just chaos. And it's dangerous. It's dangerous. Every once in a while, they'll get something right. What do you think they have gotten right? Well, it remains to be seen about the Iran strikes. A lot of critics said that it would immediately start a war with Iran, and that obviously hasn't happened. But we also don't have the damage assessments to understand fully what damage was done.

And it's interesting, it may turn out that they were somewhat effective in setting back the Iranian nuclear program, but at the same time, the risk that this administration is posing to Israel, to our own national security, to our allies in the region, by claiming that the program is obliterated when it might still exist.

I mean, that's very dangerous. So with most of these things, it's a mixed bag. A broken clock is right twice a day, right? So every once in a while, they'll get lucky and get something right. People are gonna give Trump credit for sending weapons to Ukraine today, even though the administration canceled them last week and

Throughout the past several months. He's been basically supporting Vladimir Putin and his war of aggression Where do you think I mean we have you know rumors of a ceasefire Basically every other day between Israel and Hamas, Bibi Netanyahu in town this week meeting with the president nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, which I can't imagine someone at the committee probably likes less than Netanyahu right at this moment. But where do you think the odds of getting a ceasefire stand and what do you think about the prospect as well that they might be getting another round of the Abraham Accords, which I really thought was a seminal achievement of the first Trump administration?

Yeah, it's a seminal achievement because it's about the only achievement of the first Trump administration, but- Tomato, tomato. Yeah. But yeah, no, it was a good thing. Absolutely. And it would have been great if we could have built

on those Abraham Accords, rather than getting into a perpetual war in Gaza and not even getting the hostages back in the process. So look, I think that the prospects of a ceasefire are always low so long as Bibi is in power. And that's just the reality. You know, I'm a huge supporter of Israel, always have been, will always stand by our allies. But Netanyahu has made a lot of mistakes, even though he's had some wins too. I mean, what he did against Hezbollah was pretty

genius. Of course, that wasn't him so much as the intelligence services and the military. He just authorized the operation. He'll take all the credit for it. But Gaza has been, you know, General Petraeus pointed out to me, he's a mentor of mine, I used to work for him in Iraq, he pointed out that they've really had three main goals after October 7th when it comes to Gaza. One is to defeat Hamas, they haven't succeeded because they've just been degraded. Two is to make sure Hamas is not running Gaza. Well, every time Israel turns around, Hamas is running the place and they don't have any alternative government, even on the horizon, you know, that people can look towards. And then third is getting all the hostages back and, you know, it's been a long time and they're still not all back.

So given Israel's own stated goals, you can't say that Gaza is going well, not to mention the tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed in the process. So I've always said Israel needs to win this war, but winning a counterinsurgency means actually defeating the enemy. It means actually having a new government in place, a political end game, something that I called foreign

and op-ed just a few days after the horrific October 7th attacks. And three, it means actually a long-term plan for peace in the region, which I think means expanding the Abraham Accords. But obviously that hasn't happened as the Gaza war has continued either. Yeah. They're optimistic about it. I agree in being hopeful, I guess, that that could happen.

I think it would go a long way to making life better for the region in general and for Israel. Yeah, we can all be hopeful, but hope is not a strategy. And we need a strategy. And Bibi Netanyahu has never had a strategy for an end game in Gaza. He's always just presided over this continual war. And while we could see every day in the news reports

that this is bad for Palestinian civilians, you could argue it's bad for Hamas, but they're still somehow managing to survive. It's also bad for Israel. And that's my concern is that this is, sorry, I don't mean to make it my only concern, but that's a concern that I think is not emphasized enough that this is not in Israel's long-term national security

interests to have this threat persisting, which is obviously still there. That's why there's still a war. Yeah, you actually sound like exactly where the majority of our party wants our leadership to be in discussing the issue of Israel. I already mentioned I'm in New York City, which had our mayoral primary here and I'm in

tremendous amounts of group chats of back and forth about the Israel issue and anti-semitism versus being critical of Israel and is Bibi a war criminal and where the party is when it comes to its steadfast support for Israel? And I hope more people can listen to the way that you're talking about this issue and threading the needle and emulate it because I think it would keep a lot more people in our tent, frankly, on a very polarizing issue. Well, I appreciate that. I mean, these are nuanced issues. They are very polarizing.

But we got to start with first principles, which is that Hamas is a horrific, evil terrorist organization that has the destruction of Israel, one of our most important allies in the world, written into its charter. Another first principle, innocent civilians should not be killed, no matter who they are, no matter what flag they fly. They shouldn't be killed on October 7th, and they shouldn't be killed indiscriminately in a war. And then the third is that everyone deserves a right to freedom and self-determination. I mean, I just believe so strongly in American values that I believe they are human values, right? That people want freedom.

They want to choose their own government leaders. They want opportunities for their kids. I don't want to worry about my kids going to school down the street and getting shot because we have absurd gun laws in America. I don't want to be a Palestinian dad and worry about the kids not even being able to go to school because the school has been bombed. And even if it was bombed for justifiable reasons because Hamas was using it or whatever, the bottom line is, let's just recognize universal human values here and work towards a peaceful end game that is actually peace on both sides. That's hard.

That's very hard. But if we have those first principles in mind, then you can criticize an Israeli policy without being anti-Semitic. You can recognize that the rise of anti-Semitism in America and across the globe is a real problem, including on our college campuses. I've seen it. I've heard it from students. It is a real problem. You can combat that anti-Semitism without silencing all dissent, without deporting people

who just write an op-ed supportive of Palestinians. So we got a lot of work to do, but it's important. It's important because lives are on the line. Definitely. Last question, what's one thing that makes you rage and what's one thing that you think we should all calm down about? Oh well first of all what makes me rage is traffic. It doesn't have to be this way. Like America is the only developed country in the world that doesn't either have or is building high-speed rail and

I'm like the high-speed rail champion in Congress. It would make all of our lives better getting around America faster than driving and for quarters of reasonable distance, faster than flying, and we just don't even have the option. So that's a huge freedom that the rest of the world has to go 200 miles per hour in a beautiful train, downtown to downtown, small town to big city, and yet we can't do that in America

because our infrastructure is so old-fashioned that we're still sitting in traffic on 1950s highways. That's a good one. And what do people need to calm down about? Oh, God, there's a lot that people need to calm down about. But one thing I think that the Democrats need to calm down about is just not hating everyone who disagrees with us. Our attitude for so long has been to stand on this pedestal and preach to Americans and say, if you disagree with us, if you support Donald Trump, you're not only wrong, you're

a bad person. And I'm sorry, but that's just no way to win voters. Let's get off the pedestal, sit down with Americans and actually start listening to them again. Listen to their concerns, listen to their fears, listen to the reasons that they voted for Donald Trump. And you know what?

I bet if we do that, we could actually change some minds. And changing minds is what we need to do to win. And at the end of the day, this is about winning. Democrats need to win. I'm all about winning. That's what we need to do. It's so important because there's so much on the line. I love it.

I'm into winning too. And it was a real pleasure having you Congressman Walton. Thanks for coming on. Hey, thanks for having me. This was fun. Yeah, it was. I'm Jay Malan and I'm the host of the Energy Manager's Playbook, a new podcast from Save On Energy.

This show is about real stories, real challenges and real solutions from energy professionals. I personally think that many engineers were not given enough training in communications and the softer skills of getting a project done. We have no control over cost of materials, but we do have control of how we use our energy and how we can save. Listen to the Energy Manager's Playbook wherever you get your podcasts.