Rates & Barrels - Catching Up with Brent Rooker, Hall of Fame Ballots & Baseball's Worst Idea

Episode Date: December 8, 2024

Eno, Trevor and DVR are joined by Brent Rooker to discuss his offseason so far on the heels of a career year in 2024. Plus, they examine a few tough cases from this year's Hall of Fame ballot and 'The Golden At-Bat' -- one of the least popular ideas in baseball history (?) -- before playing another round of 'Name That Dude!'. Rundown 0:47 Brent's Early Offseason Work So Far 3:31 Adjustments & Areas of Improvement 6:10 Daily Prep Throughout the Season 9:45 Expectations for Sacramento's Park Factors 12:28 Staying In the Game While DH'ing 18:41 Toughest Hall of Fame Cases On This Year's Ballot 25:07 Félix Hernández & Making Better Era-Adjusted Comparisons 39:19 Chase Utley's Case & Surprising Low Vote Share in Year 1 42:31 Nobody Likes the 'Golden At-Bat' Idea (except Trevor, sort of) 53:18 Name That Dude! Follow Eno on Bluesky: @enosarris.bsky.social Follow DVR on Bluesky: @dvr.bsky.social Follow Trevor on Bluesky: @iamtrevormay.bsky.social e-mail: [e-mail] Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/FyBa9f3wFe Subscribe to The Athletic: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Hosts: Derek VanRiper, Eno Sarris & Trevor May Producer: Brian Smith Executive Producer: Derek VanRiper Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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Drive your ambition. Mitsubishi Motors. Welcome to Rates and Barrels. It is our pre-winter meetings special. Derek and Riper, EnoSaris, Trevor May and a guest, Brent Rooker, all here today, very full house as we record this here Thursday, December 5th is the date of this show. You may hear it sometime around Sunday before the winter meetings. Brent, thanks so much for joining us. Absolutely. Excited to be here. Always a pleasure to be on Anything with Trevor. It's always a blast.

So what are you up to this time of year? What's the main thing you're focusing on in the early part of December coming off of such a great season? A lot of dad stuff. I got a three- old and got a three and a half month old. So it's a lot of dad stuff. As far as baseball goes, I started hitting. I had surgery right after the season. I started hitting again next week, which I'm excited about. Up until now, it's just been a bunch of PT stuff, trying to get back fully healthy, which

I am. What'd you get fixed? Elbow extensor tippin. So that guy. Oh, wow. Got a scar, look like a pitcher out there. Yeah, I know. So I got that fixed, PT's been great,

feeling fully healthy, just normal workouts besides that. Get ready to get rowing, swinging the bat next week. This is like such a loaded term behind schedule, but are you like, would you have been somewhere else? I mean, maybe like, it might be a week week later as far as starting hitting that I would have done normally so it's not no kind of delay here behind schedule or anything like that. You can't really approximate game you know stuff in the offseason I always feel like the pitchers have a better time in the offseason because they can

you know pitch design and do all that sort of thing so how do you how do you do hitting in the offseason? I do below machine is kind of my way to simulate velocity, to simulate a game type environment. We're doing just fastballs, turn that machine up pretty high, try to get the reaction time to being where it would be with an elite, elite force team or whatever. And besides that, I mean, for me, it's a lot of flips, a lot of short toss,

a lot of dark toss, some BP mixed here and there. But I'm not a guy who likes to do I don't do any live at bats before spring training. I know some guys do that. I don't do that. I do hit the machine. Like I said, a lot of fastballs and then some breaking balls mixed in too. So that's kind of that's my way to simulate a game type environment or a game type pitches just kind of use the machine. Do you track your swings at all so that you know? No, not really. As far as like number of swings or quantity or whatever. Just wonder about fatigue. I mean, pitchers track everything. So they're just. Right. No, I mean, it's interesting.

It's an interesting concept, but no, I'd never have. I mean, I'll gradually build up, right? So like the first two weeks I hit, it's not gonna be a ton. And then as I get further and further, It's more of a feel, feel, yeah. The quantity will pick up just to make sure that my body's ready for the first break training and stuff like that.

When we talk to pitchers, you know, they talk a lot about like learning new pitch, trying to design something new in the off season. That's a lot of now what the off season works looks like for them. Um, and you and I have talked a few times already this off season, but just to reiterate real quick for those people who haven't heard, it's just about how you're trying to improve a lot of the little kind of minutiae parts of your game. You know, working on the strikeout right a little bit, upping the walk rate and all those things are trending in the right direction. Going into this off season, is there anything new that you're

implementing in that that you think will then produce those kind of? Improvements in terms of a new drill or maybe just a mindset thing anything I think a lot of the things that I want to improve on in a lot of the areas a lot of the margins I think I can see improvements They'll they'll allow me to take more steps forward is gonna happen in spring training because they're gonna be pretty specific to approach stuff It's a game planning stuff and two things that are going to happen in a live game like a bat. So I think a lot of that's going to happen in the spring, which I'm excited about. For me, the off season as far as hitting goes, it's just like I know, I know my swing when

it's at its best place because it has now for two years. So it's just ironing out those little things that, you know, when I get off, I know what those causes are. I know what I know what goes wrong in my swing. I have those, you know, when I get off, I know what those causes are. I know what goes wrong in my swing. I have those two, three, or four things that I can always go back to and kind of go through a checklist and be like, all right, I don't feel good right now. The swing's not working like I want to.

Is it this? No, it's not that. Is it this? No, it's not that. Okay, then it's this. And then I can kind of work on ironing those few things out at the off season just to make sure that when I get the spring training

and I get to work on those approach things and those at bat things in live game situations, then my swings in the right place and it's where I need it to be to kind of accurately gauge whether or not those approach changes or gameplay changes, whatever it is, are being effective and are working. What are some of those touch points like is it moving the back? Is it your weight distribution? Is it?

A lot of it is things the things I found last year, hand position's big for me. When I'm at my best, my hands are launching from honestly higher than what I feel is comfortable. If I'm just standing here, like demonstrating a stance or where I put my hands, when I'm going my best, I think they're launching for me but a little bit higher than that.

So that's gonna be important. This is for me. My load or storage or initial move or kind of whatever you want to call it is kind of everything for me when that's going well, when I'm storing energy properly, when I'm using the ground correctly, when I'm not making like a massive shift backwards towards the catcher. When those things are going right, the rest of my swing kind of tends to take care of itself. So that's a lot of my focus is it's in setup and it's in like my initial moves, you know, whatever it is, the pitcher's leg gets to the top of his leg,

he goes hands break or whatever the timing window is. Whatever my first move and my load is, kind of often determines how the rest of my swings gonna go. What information do you like on a day to day basis in season to make adjustments, either in preparation for a particular pitcher or if you feel something might be a little bit off with your swing, like what actually helps along the way.

As far as physical stuff goes, me and Bushy, our hitting coach, had a pretty good understanding that unless when I got to the field, if he came up to me and told me he had a swing thing for me, then I was allowed to worry about mechanics. If he didn't say anything about my swing, I was not allowed to worry about mechanics. That's your metric. I wasn't allowed to try to change anything. that and that could honestly end up hurting me more than it helps. So that was kind of our system this year. It was like, he was like, look, if I see something in your swing that needs work, I will come find you. If I don't come and find you,

you are not allowed to make any mechanical adjustments. And so I knew if he didn't come find me, then I knew, okay, all I'm focusing on today is what this guy's gonna try to do to get me out and how I'm gonna combat that to try to have success. You know, I don't think I asked you this before, but I'm kind of surprised I haven't. But you know, I was to try to have success. You know, I don't think I asked you this before, but I'm kind of surprised I haven't, but you know, I was looking through your minor league stats

and I mean, I don't really see a big change. Like you were 30 to 40% better than the average at every stop in the minor leagues, even better than that some. You hit the ball really hard at each of those stops. You had good patience. Swing and miss has always been a little bit part of your game.

I don't see like massive changes in your ground ball, fly ball mix. Was it just opportunity or were there some things that clicked near the end of your time in the minors that you took over to the A's? I think a big part of it was opportunity. I've made small adjustments here and there, but there was never a point in my career, minor leagues or major leagues where it's like, okay, I'm just going to completely change what I do and abandon what's gotten me here and abandon any success I've had prior and just make a

huge swing change or a huge approach change. That's never happened for me. It was it was pretty consistent. Like you said, pretty consistent production all the way up the ladder. And then I think 2023, specifically, just getting that opportunity to kind of play every day, and get 500 of bats and kind of find out what I could do was huge. And then once I got that opportunity, and I proved to myself that I was good enough to do it, from there, I was just trying to learn. I was learning from those 500 abouts I got in 2023 to take the next step forward in 2024. That's what I did.

I think it's all about the first opportunity comes like you have to prove it to yourself that you can do it. And then the confidence kicks in. And then when the confidence kicks in, you'll be able to take that next step forward. So there's been, I mean, pitchers, hitters, whoever it is, we're all making tiny adjustments every single day. I'm making tiny adjustments at bat to a bat, pitch to pitch, just based on how I feel or based on whatever I think needs a change. But there's never been like any kind of major swing overhaul, major approach overhaul. It's just been, you know,

fine tuning things here and there and then ultimately waiting to get that opportunity. And thankfully I was able to take advantage of it when I did. I want to ask you a little bit about Sacramento and I know that we've talked about it a little bit about how much of your approach can be tailored to the park. You know, you played in the Coliseum and you hit 39 rumors last year. Okay. So you can't worry about it too much because if you do worry about it, like you look at the Coliseum.

So how do you think Sacramento is going to change that? Are you just going to keep saying you know what I hit the ball hard There's not many parks at all that'll hold it no matter where I am Yeah, I mean, I'm not gonna change anything specifically. I think I mean I hit the ball the air a lot already That's kind of my strength, but I hit the ball hard in the air a lot already so like what what do you like are the Variables that lead the doubles and homers as I already already do those things. So I'm just kind of hoping, I'm expecting Sacramento to play about league average.

Like I'm not expecting to show up and it'd be Cincinnati or be, you know, one of these like tiny parks or some of the ball just flying everywhere. I think it's going to be about league average, which will be an improvement as far as offensive numbers go from Oakland, because Oakland plays, I think, second to last, only one being more pitcher friendly as San Francisco.

But I think if so, if I just continue to keep my same approach and to put the same bat and ball metrics out there, that the numbers theoretically should take up a little bit just because of the park backer. Have they given you a sense of what your situation will look like as a player? You know, like in terms of, you know, I know that they're building a new building out there.

Have you been able to see it or have they talked to you about what's gonna be available to you? I kind of doubt that Oakland is a Traject team. Is it a Traject team? It's not a Traject. Yes, that's the machine that like. It isn't. Yeah, I guess it isn't.

But it's supposed to like, it gives a hologram of the picture and. It's a two hundred thousand dollar pitching machine. Yeah. But like in terms of facilities, do you think that like, do you have you? Have they talked to you at all about that or? Obviously, to the players association, like we're familiar with the things that needed to be brought up to standard to think that they're working on. As far as exactly what specifics of that look like, I'm not entirely sure. I know we I think we have had staff go out there and kind of see the see the plans and things like that and approve everything that's going on. So I don't know specific details, you know, as far as facilities or equipment or things like that goes. But I think we're, we're all pretty confident that it will be, you know, our staff and our players and players associations as a whole, we'll do a good job making sure that it's up to par.

I ask because you're, you DH most of the time last year and the numbers say that, that DHs are supposed to be, there's a thing called a DH penalty. It's like the pinch hitter penalty, the DH penalty. You're supposed to be 10% worse than you are if you were a position player as a DH. And so that's led to sort of a debate in statistics and sort of analysts about whether or not

DHing is a skill. And I come on the side that DHing is a skill and you have guys like, you know, David Ortiz that showed that like, you know, being like maybe a top step guy and trying to like really anticipate what they're doing to, what pitchers are doing to other hitters,

staying in the game that way Can be can be a way to stay engaged by I talked to JD Davis about this where he's like if I go down and Try to bike to stay warm, right? Then I'm in the dark Basically, and when I come back out, it's all bright, you know, and that's weird But if I stay at the top shelf to stay bright, I might get cold in my body. So what were some of the things, I know that I think the home team, the A's,

had a batting cage up by the inside, but the visitors had to go to like center field, I think. So were you in the cage during games? No, I would like, between innings and when we're on defense, I would like between innings and we were on defense I would go to the weight room. It's gonna pace around a lot Yeah, I mean there's a lot of bikes up there a lot of anxious pacing out of me That's just my personality though. I would you have to say you have to stay up, right? Like that's that's part of the skill right moving around which was a positive. I never hit though

I didn't take any swings between the bats. I didn't go to the cage moving around, which was a positive. I never hit though. I didn't take any swings between the bats. I didn't go to the cage. So I stayed out of the cage because I didn't want to take swings. But I walk around a lot. I'll go just ride a bike for two minutes, throw a med ball around just to keep moving and stay loose. And then I did, I spent a lot of time on the iPad watching sequences, watching not just my previous at bats, but the rest of our lineups previous at bats to see if I could find anything, find any sequences, watching not just my previous at bats, but the rest of

our lineups previous at bats to see if I could find any things, find any sequences, find any tendencies or whatever it was. And to use for my benefit and then as well the relay to the rest of the guys who are out playing defense who don't get the opportunity to watch as many at bats as I had the opportunity to. So I thought that was beneficial and that's how I occupied my time. I mean, especially the dugouts in Oakland are so small too. Like if you're sitting there, like you can't move.

So I don't like just sitting there being stagnant. So I would walk up the stairs, go to the weight room, and just kind of move around up there for a little bit. Just keeping the blood flowing. That seems like it's really important. And I get stagnant and I get tight and that kind of, that whole thing. We know you are a big advocate of finding great breakfast.

Are there any breakfast spots that are already on your radar with the move to Sacramento? No, I haven't looked into it, but I'm excited to. That'll be that'll be a good benefit of a new city is getting to try out some new restaurants, which I love doing. So I'm excited to do that. I just are looking into it, though. Did you have a top meal from twenty twenty four anywhere on the road? Anywhere you went, you had the whole the whole chain chain. Yeah. Like was the number? What was the best one?

I'm trying to think specifically what the best one I had last year was. I have to get back and look at the list because I did the list in 2023 too and they kind of just like weld together. For me, I can't remember which one was which one. The peanut butter stuffed French toast in San Diego at that cafe I went to was really good though.

That was a good one. That's what we love. We got a lot of listeners that pitch games on the road. Cafe and then like three numbers, or cafe and four numbers, I don't know what numbers. That was good. There you go, that's the answer. You've got some homework for Sacramento.

The last thing I wanted to ask you was just, you know, what kind of homework you're doing now in terms of what are you reading? Are you watching the winter meetings, you know, coverage? Are you listening, you know, the age of science at Reno? Are you looking for movement on your team? Are you just a fan of the league? You know, what sort of stuff are you reading

during the off season when you're reading about baseball? I read a lot. I mean, I scroll Twitter by too much, but I mean, a lot of my algorithms is baseball stuff, so I appreciate it. I like the cycle of the offseason, seeing where guys are gonna end up, seeing how one signing affects another signing, or one trade affects this trade, or kind of seeing how all those pieces fall together. That's exciting for me. I think right now, I mean, I'm like everybody else trying to see where Soto is gonna go, and what that number is officially gonna be, and I think it's gonna be pretty crazy Is it harder at all though because you are a player like your future could be on the line like you could

Well, you might actually see something on the ticker. That's like, oh god like What I got a move When I'm scrolling and reading this stuff, you kind of just become a fan. I mean, obviously the Severino Siding is super exciting and kind of seeing how moves I think are going to affect us as a team is interesting to me too. I'm excited about that move. I think he's going to help us a ton. And that's just it's one more step, I think what we believe is a chance

to be pretty competitive next year. So I like keeping up with all of it. The winter meetings seem like they're gonna be pretty chaotic. It seems like kind of as soon as, as soon as Juan decides where he's gonna go, things are gonna start to fall into place. And that sounds fun to keep up with. So I'm excited about it.

Yeah, we're hoping for that. We'll be there. You read about metrics sometimes. Like, did you think any of the new metrics that have come out recently, you know, will affect how you think about the game or will affect how players train? What are the new ones?

What are the new ones? I mean, we, you know, Bat Speed came out this year. Oh, like those, yeah. Yeah, that's not so new to a player though, because like y'all have been using Blast Motion and like, you know, it's not. Yeah, right. I like the added bars on the baseball savante.

It makes it more aesthetic. It gives me a bigger... More red for you, right? Yeah. Mine are either really red or really blue. That's right. No, I like the added stuff. I mean, I'm pretty on record.

I like knowing as much information as there is available. I know a lot of guys aren't like that. Probably most guys aren't like that, but like I think it's beneficial for me and it's something that I enjoy. So the more stuff we can come up with to quantify, you know, I'm down for it. Well, Brent, we appreciate the time.

We'll let you get back to dad mode here and enjoy the rest of your off season. Look forward to seeing what you do with the A's shift over to Sacramento this year. Thanks guys, appreciate it. 70,000 people are here and Bob Dylan is the reason for it. Inspired by the true story. If anyone is going to hold your attention on the stage, you have to kind of be a freak.

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A complete unknown. Only theaters Christmas Day. With Uber Reserve, good things come to those who plan ahead. Family vacay? Reserve your ride as soon as you book your flights. To all the planners, now you can reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See Uber app for details. Always great to catch up with folks in the off season and Brent Rooker, a great follow

on Twitter if you're still over there. I think there's like a handful of accounts that are still worth following on Twitter. So nice to have them in your feed if you're still there. I was very nicely said by the way. It's a short list It's a very short list, but hey, you know what can you do generally? It's a waistline when I go over there It's as bad as it's ever do it's like you open the app and if you like hear audible screaming. It's The first video is just some crazy thing Most of it's just not real I don't know. I don't like it here

Well, we're gonna go to a place that's speaking like screaming. Yeah screaming. Let's talk about the hall We're gonna go to the comment section and we're gonna go to social media talk about the Hall of Fame ballots And and this year's class. And it's kind of funny, Eno sent me this on Slack the other day. If you're watching on YouTube, you can see it. And if you ever wondered, if you never noticed that you didn't follow, you know,

Ryan Thibodeau or the accounts that actually like put ballots out, if you've never seen the ballot for the Hall of Fame, it is one of the saddest documents that matters to people that exist. It is more boring than a W-2. Like it is, it has no creative juice behind it whatsoever. I mean, it is literally a list of 28 names in three columns

with a Microsoft Word 3D checkbox next to each one. It's way too next to each one. It's like a dot matrix printer. Way too close to the word. Yeah, the box is a character right next to the first letter of the player's name. What are we voting on here? Like middle school, eighth grade class president? Honestly, Trevor, I think that's exactly what it looks like.

I think there was a student council that I lost an election for, and the ballot looked exactly like this. Because everyone was so bored they just circled the first 12 names they could get and threw it in the garbage. Like that's what happened. I don't know why it looks like that. Probably a money thing. But someone out there who has the creative ability should design a nice looking Hall of Fame ballot.

And just get that. It should be a little gold leafing on the top. I mean this is a big deal. It should be a cool thing. It should be a little gold leafing on the top. I mean, this is a big deal. It should be a cool thing. It should be an honor to even be on there. Just to get your name on the ballot is such a cool thing. And it just looks like an ordinary piece of garbage that shows up in the mail.

Now it is a nice honor to be voting. I don't think you were sending me that to like dunk on the process. It was more just like, why does this piece of paper look so boring? There's no reason for it to be this way but are there particularly tough cases in this year's class get 14 first timers guys like Ichiro, Cici Sabathia, Dustin Pedroia, Ian Kinsler, Felix Hernandez among a few others you got a few holdovers that were over 50% of the vote last

year with Billy Wagner, Andrew Jones, Carlos Beltran, a couple of guys that are under 35 percent that have cases and Alex Rodriguez and Manny Ramirez. Who are the toughest cases for you as you think about checking those lovely boxes to send in that ballot? I have some ins that are just like, like, you know, this is a lot of my sort of adult fandom too. Like it's not quite players that I've covered yet just beginning to be players that I've covered, but these are players that I watched. And so there's a little bit of sniff test if you can believe it. I know I'm a, I'm a, I'm a stat guy, but there's a little bit of sniff test with these guys and the numbers I think just really do it.

So Cici, Pettit, Beltran, Wagner, and Ichiro are just, I feel really good about that. I don't even have to investigate it too hard. I'm just like, those guys were Hall of Famers. I just, you know, I know that Pettit has that one thing on his record, but it was a human growth hormone, and I'm not a doctor, but it just doesn't feel like as bad as some of the other transgressions

that we've had on the record. So it's not Nando Sterobron or whatever. You know, like it's not one of the old Russian block. The old Hades Olympic steroids, yeah. Those are the best steroids. Yeah, says Derek Van Riper confidently. Guy who's never used them. Sure, they're the best names, they're the funniest ones.

Yeah. So anyway, I'm in on those guys and I think the hard thing for me is that there's so many next level guys that I want to put like 15 names down. And this is where I know we just had this on the athletic. I know that I depart a little bit from maybe fandom written with a big F because Levi Weaver just did a thing on the athletic where he asked people to vote.

And they voted one guy in each hero. How did they come to that conclusion? I don't know. I think it's, I think it has something to do with like, you see this hall of fame and you, and it has these Babe Ruth and Willie Mays in it. And so you're like, I need to compare all these people to Babe Ruth and Willie Mays in like these all time greats and I think they're missing the fact that the Hall of Fame can have different tiers. You know, you can't have A, B and C.

And also we have to have the Widley Maze's of our time. You know, like you can't just look against, and especially when it comes to pitchers, you cannot be comparing today's starting pitchers to guys that had 350 innings a season and pitched 35 games or you know 40 games a season you know and had like 20 complete games like it's just not you're not gonna you're gonna you're not gonna ever vote another

starting pitcher in again and another thing you can do is you can look and historically say okay 1.5% that has been what we voted in. 1.5%. Now, it used to be a little bit over 1.5% and since 1960 it's been under 1%. So the people were thinking it's getting diluted, I don't think that they have the right idea. We're actually voting fewer people in. And I think that's because we're putting them up against the standards of another time. So, you know, I saw this idea from Tom Tango and maybe what we should do is compare players to players that were born in their decade. So five years before and five years after. And this is really important for Felix Hernandez because if you look at Felix Hernandez, you know,

against all pitchers, he comes up short. You look at Jaws, which is Jay Jaffe's great metric, or you look at war, or whatever you look at, you'll be like, ah, Felix is good, but he wasn't great. I don't know, man. That does not fit with my fandom. Like, I was like, Felix Hernandez is one of the greats. He pioneered a pitch, like the power change, was like, that's Felix Hernandez's pitch and he was so

great in his peak that let me tell you when you do this and you look at pitchers that were born five years before him and five years after him and you put them on let's just do war right now because that's what we've got and you put them on this list this is how the list looks around his age. Justin Verlander, Hall of Famer. Clayton Kershaw, Hall of Famer. Max Scherzer, Hall of Famer. Zach Granke, Hall of Famer for me.

Felix Hernandez, Hall of Famer for me. Chris Sale, Hall of Famer. Cole Hamels, now you're starting to get where it's a little bit harder. Hamels, Wainwright, Lester Cole. But if you go to the top six, if you're the top six of a decade, you're in that 1%.

You know, you're in that, you should be a Hall of Famer. If you're in the top 10 for your decade, I think you should be in the Hall of Fame for your position. And you know, that fits for a lot of these guys and I think that's a good argument for Felix. It's a good argument for Brian McCann and Russell Martin, who are two of the best framers of all time, you know, and yes, their offense isn't great, but that,

that that's going to make them hard to vote on. It's like, this is a defensive package. It's almost like voting in a shortstop that was great at defense, you know, Utley would be top 10 in his, in his time. Bobby Abreu is also hard because he's 15th in his time, but it's outfielders. So really, it should be more, right? It should be like the top 30 or something for outfielders.

So Abreu, top 15 outfielder of his decade. And I know he wasn't an MVP guy any one year, but he was basically like the eighth best player in baseball for like year over year for six years in a row. So those are the kind of the hardest players to do. We're going to be dealing with this more and more often as we go forward. Pictures with smaller volume, even big peak short career position players like Chase Utley.

These are players that do things that we didn't measure back in the day. So we think that Russ Martin was maybe the best framer of all time. We don't know it. So it's kind of hard to vote him in being, you're the best framer of all time. You're getting on that. I don't know. We don't have framing for 90% of the history of baseball. That's just my short screen. It's like, I want to put most of those guys in.

They've passed this 1% test in their decades, but I also understand what other people say when they say Russ Martin had a 750 OPS. Like, how are you putting them in? Yeah, I mean, what do you think, Trevor? I mean, someone who played with a lot of these guys that are on the ballot or played against them, any of them too, it's like, does the elite skill,

like the one you described framing, something like that, can that propel a case? I think we've talked a little bit about relievers in the past on this show and how they have to clearly be graded differently. Like nothing about modern relievers is like what historical reliever usage was like and they're an important part of the game.

That's undeniable. So the criteria has to shift along with it but do you agree that maybe elite defense needs to be graded differently and thought of differently when these ballots come out? Well there's a guy gonna be available soon for the ballot that is definitely gonna need that if he wants to be considered and I think a lot of people are gonna shoo him in and that's Yadier Molina and he's left hand he's the catching is the thing. Catching was the thing with him.

We're gonna have to quantify that. And honestly, catching has been one of those positions where I think there is more leeway, different types of guys can get in, because if we're going based on offense, it's like Johnny Bench. Right. And then that's it.

So, and then we have to like figure it. And then everyone else is like later in the game, they switch to a different position, like Joe Mauer, like no one sticks to catching as long as he did either. So what I think of the big thing is I think this year is maybe the best example now. We are now seeing guys going on the ballot where there is a very distinct,

that the change in the game is starting to be noticed. Like that 2016, 17, 18 when Andrew Jones is like, five All-Star games in a row, or not Andrew Jones, sorry, Adam Jones, five All-Star games in a row, three years later, 33, they're like, nah, we don't know who wants to have them on their team. That's too, like the game itself said, wasn't giving you the chances.

So they weren't letting you play. 30 years ago, he would have been able to hang on for five more years. He would have kept just signing one year deals and would that have watered down stats? Yeah, but he would have longevity. So longevity is kind of just going away. Like we talk about Buster Posey.

Buster Posey has 11 years. But everyone's like, oh, he's at Hall. He got three World Series rings. I mean, like, yeah. But he didn't get to 2,000 hits, which is almost like a prerequisite for getting into the hall. And look how many guys on this list

don't have 2,000 hits or aren't even close. So the standards are gonna change in a big way. And I love what you said about Andrew Jones. I just wanna point this out, and this will probably put it in perspective for a lot of people out there that love baseball right now. If we're saying, well, there, no MVPs or no this,

that's a comparative thing to everyone who played at the same time as them. So if you're telling me that if Jose Ramirez goes out and throws up five more years, Jose Ramirez is in a row, but still keeps being like seventh on the MVP voting, and he's not a Hall of Famer now, because he never won one, though he's a great player with 350 home runs and 250, you know, 2500 hits

or whatever he gets to, but he didn't get that. Like, you have to compare it to the people that are around them. And now we're seeing like with the Ben Zobris and the Curtis Grandersons and the Troy Tulewitzkis, like these guys, had they played 18 years, might have been able to get to these numbers, but they're all playing 11 years now.

So you have to take that stuff into account. But for me, I think Etro is one of the guys, cause 3000 hits, like just a classic, like he comes up, he's getting a hit, and everyone assumes he is going to. I think CC's again, a shoe in. Honestly, there's some things about CC's career that are actually surprising.

I didn't know his career already was that high. I didn't know he walked that many guys. I didn't know he had that one, two, six win. And that's partially because he actually did have the late tail. The long jib. He hung around and he walked that many guys in. I didn't know he had one, two, six wins. And that's partially because he actually did have the late tail. Villon Jephan. He hung around and he spent a lot of time in a header friendly ballpark.

He hung around and he made his ERA worse. You spend 10 years of your career at the end at Yankee Stadium. If you look at his stats for Felix, had Felix thrown 700 more innings and did what Cece did and hung on and it happened the same way, we would be like, yeah, he's in.

But he would have been less what he put on. It way, we would be like, yeah, he's in. But he would have been less what he put on. It was worse than what he did. But now he's sheshooing because he played long enough. I just feel like people are like, that's not enough stuff. And we got to start getting away from that. And I love that the decade thing is a great idea, just because no one's going to be, no one wants to do that for that long.

And they're not given the opportunity. That's not how decisions are made anymore It's not based on your name if Greg Maddox came and and he what he last his last three years He couldn't get under a four four and a half and he hung on he would have been he would have been released by a team now and People think that's not possible because it's great It would have been had he played now because the way he is now already through and whatever he would just not be given the opportunity That's not an indictment on him at all. It's just now because of the way he is and how hard he threw and whatever, he would just not be given the opportunity. That's not an indictment on him at all.

It's just, that's just the way it is. So this is such an interesting conversation because the wide range, like Torrey Hunter is maybe the last guy who really just had that 20 year career, like on this list, the last one since 2015 to have that much longevity. And it was good defense and you know, I just, I straight gold gloves.

I'm just not sure there's enough bat for me to vote him. He doesn't have 800 OPS for his career. I feel like that's kind of where I'm feeling like you're getting outside. Unless you're a catcher, maybe a shortstop, because it's very important. But he was a center fielder, so it's like, yeah. Honestly, if you're a shortstop, a center fielder, or a catcher, you have to produce,

you have to be elite, elite, elite in something. Like, it's gotta be ridiculous. You have to be ridiculous, and defense might be his thing. But in terms of like hits, you got 2,500 hits. Like, nobody else is close. Like, everyone else is like 1,400. So, you can't compare them with that. So, we have to get creative here,

but I feel like the shift is happening. But I also think that in 10 years, it'll be a much more even doubt. I just think we're in this window where a huge shift is gonna start showing up on these ballots with some older guys still on, like for example, like Billy Wagner, like put him in. Yeah, just get over.

He's like top five closest of all time guys, it's not close. Fernando Rodney, I love Fernando Rodney. He's got one, he's got an entire run on top of Francisco Rodriguez. An entire run on his year, right? I know it doesn't matter for relievers, but that's a lot. That's a leaky, leaky closer. So they're not even the same for me, those two guys.

But it's nice he's on there, good for him. There's still like, you know, small hall versus big hall, which I guess you could go between one and 1.5%, you know? And what's interesting with Bobby Ubreu is just how borderline he is. So even if you compare him to his peers, I've got 1,042 players born in his decade that played in baseball and had more than 50 played appearances. So if you've got 1,042 and you want one point five percent, that means you're voting in sixteen guys Well, this is ten plus among those guys because the top is Alex Rodriguez Chipper Jones

Adrian Belche, Ken Griffey Jr, Derek Jeter. Yes, we voted all these guys in Scott Rolland Yeah, six in his in his time. Yeah, we voted him in Yvonne Rodriguez, Carlos Beltran is nine, Andrew Jones is 10, Manny Ramirez, Jim Edmonds is 12, Chase Utley is 13, Bobby Ubreu is 14, Ichiro is 15, Lance Berkman is 16. So I think that's why Bobby Ubreu is just, even given all the stuff we've said, he's still just right there where,

you know, he wasn't a great defender, but he did have a go to on base percentage, but he, you know, and he did run, but he, and he was 30% better than the garrison with a stick, but it wasn't better than that. And should he need to be better than that to have the bad gloves? So I think he's, he's right on the line. And I've supported him and I voted for him. But this year, this is such a crowded ballot too

Which what you're saying with all these new guys on it that sometimes there is just ballot machinations where I'm like last year I voted for a Brea you but this year I have only ten spots You know and I need to figure out what my best ten is and it may just not have a waste to pick I need to figure out what my best 10 is, and it may just not have a Brea. You don't wanna waste a pick on someone who's not gonna get, you know? There's a lot of that. Which is, I drop the hardest thing ever.

And should I vote for someone to make sure they stay on the ballot? Cause they have to have 5% to stay on the ballot. Am I worried that, you know, in my next group, Russ Martin, am I worried that Russ Martin or Brian McCann won't make it to 5%, you know? And should I vote for them over Abreu to keep them on the ballot longer?

I don't know. I don't want to think that way. It's a little bit too strategic. I'd like to just be like in or out. But if you give me 10 spots, and I think really I'd like to vote for 14 guys, then like I have to start making some decisions like that. I think there's also, yeah,

there's like that being caught in the middle also, yeah, there's that being caught in the middle of, do you want these guys off the ballot because they deserve to be in, because then we can keep the line moving, or do you want to keep guys on the ballot so they don't fall off because they deserve a case and people aren't seeing and hearing that case yet, right? So you're kind of stuck making a ballot

that's not necessarily the 10 you definitely want in right now. It's like, okay, let's get these three or four in over the hump and let's make sure these two or three guys are still here to have their cases get elevated in the years ahead, even if they're not gonna get in this year. Think about like Tim Reigns, right?

Like he got in like the last year's eligibility, I think. There are guys like, think about Billy Wagner. Why has it taken so long? It's just, people argue things, there are other, there are ballots around. things things, you know, there are other there ballots around I think there's also there are some people that I think we're getting less and less of you know Fewer fewer voters that put in like empty ballots and an empty ballot is bad because that's a that's a zero vote Right and you have to have 75% of all ballots

So, you know an empty ballot makes it really hard for somebody to get in. And there are more, there are people like that. And I think, I think some of the steroid stuff will also, you know, once that is cleaned out, that gets like, for example, I'm not, I don't think I want to vote for Manny and A-Rod because of that legacy. That opens up two spots for me as that gets cleared up, you know, more people will have spots that they feel like they can dedicate to this.

So what if we keep Russ on there and then there's a shallow year and people start looking at him more and like, man, he was a great framer. Maybe he should be in. Or maybe he shouldn't be in, but maybe he should also make it past the first 5% because that's something that people, you know, that's a badge of honor too, you know? It's always a, to me, it's a very nuanced conversation. Doesn't always turn out that way in all the social channels, but there's a lot of factors to take into consideration with these groups each and every year.

They outlined a few really good, tough cases. I was surprised Chase Utley only had 28.8% of the votes last year. He seems closer to a guy that is an obvious hall of famer to me than a lower guy that's gonna take a few years to potentially climb up. What do you think about Utley's case, Trevor? Do you think that's closer to being an easy in

than he has to wait five years to get in? Yeah, I feel like he should, especially with the position he played. He's in line with a lot of second basemen, especially much ahead of them in a lot of power numbers. He was a guy who could hit for power. He did a lot of things really, really well. He had the longevity, 64.5 war.

He's like the first guy behind the Manny Beltran in Rodriguez's group. So it's like 28.8 seems low, and I think there's a little bit of the recency like oh he played in the recent we don't have the nostalgia thing going on with him and the thing we remember is his like the last the being with the Dodgers and you know but like the winnings at the Phillies he was they had an incredible lineup and he was there with all the group. You don't think

it just Chase Utley though you think of Ryan Howard and Shane Victorino and Jimmy Rollins all with him, right? So he gets a little bit lost in shuffle, I think, with just the people he is associated with when he was one of the best, if not the best, all around longevity player of all those guys, you know, with maybe Rollins is, you know, it's a little bit more up in the air there.

But so I would say yes, I would say he should be a guy that's much higher on that list just because of production. And it was for a long time, and it was with the same team for a very long time. And if you ask any Phillies fans, they're just like, oh yeah, easily. And he's got the World Series, he's got all the accolades you need.

I don't know what else people need. I think that they're just like, no, what we need is 3,000 hits. I'm like, well, it's not 1980. So we haven't had one of those since a long time. We're batting average going away too. Yeah. I think that's 3,000 hits can be hard to get to. He also had his bad knees a little bit.

He stuck around, but he just wasn't as good in the later years, I think, because of the bad knees a little bit. He stuck around, but he just wasn't as good in the later years, I think, because of the bad knees. It's not gonna hurt Pujos. It shouldn't hurt Pujos. And he was... Yeah, those are some bad knees. He was basically a walking, like he needed a walker for three years there.

But he should still be in the Hall of Fame because he had the best 10 years probably ever. There's just no traditional benchmark that ugly hits. that that ugly hits, you know, 259 homers, 18, 1900 hits, basically a thousand RBI, you know, it's I think it's there's some of it is also a transition from, you know, some old school metrics and some new ones that that's that's always happening over the course of baseball. Does seem like we're in between eras right now, both with the people who are voting

and with how we're viewing the players on the ballot, kind of caught between a little bit of the past and moving into where baseball is right now. Speaking of the future and things that are getting people upset, have you met a person in real life who likes the golden at bat idea? I think of a hundred and a one.

You met someone? Do you like it? No, I am one. You like it? I like it for very niche reasons, but I understand how it's just silly. But like, there's some scenarios where I'm like, if that came up though, as a reliever. I'm like let's do it

So there's we got pretty creative with like how you could how you could like make it a trade-off or how you can like Use your challenges you have to have challenges available to use it Like you create a currency that you have to use to do the I don't know interesting game mechanics that can be built off This that make it really hard to pull off, but if you do so, it's really rare I want it to be rare that if it's hard to pull off, but if you do, so it's really rare. I want it to be rare. If it's rare, I'm much more open to it. Oh, what if we tie it to the pitcher thing and if your starting pitcher goes seven or something, then you unlock the golden batter. So we're blowing up more elbows and shoulders just to get one big swing at the end of the game.

Or if you have the golden A-B, the three batter rule goes out of the window so they can bring anybody into face. Any reliever can come in to face the out. And you're going to be able to project. Or this is what I liked it. This is my favorite part. And obviously this would never be how it would work. But like say in the World Series, right? And you're like, we're going to walk, we're going to walk Mookie to get Freddie to get the good matchup, say you can just wipe it out. So like you try to take, basically. Well Mookie's our golden ad bat, so you got Mookie again. What they say is oh, four, put him on, they're taking the bat out of his hands

and the team's like no, we're putting it back in his hands, go back, you're hitting him. So you just cancel it, you cancel out a, you can block the intentional walk. You can't intentionally walk him right now, you have to face him. Like that is more of a usable thing. Like that blocking an intentional walk

to avoid it later in the game. That's interesting to me, especially when it's a team with who has like one bopper. That you can just pitch around. I don't know that I love the idea from a specific standpoint, but I like the idea of playing around with baseball and changing some of the rules

I'm generally pro rule changes because I think you know, it's a game that we play when I play Catan with my kids or I play different games like kids sometimes we have house rules because that's just how we like to play and we all and we'll change things over time because oh It's so boring when Felix just you know hogs all the weed or whatever and like, you know, I mean, it's like there's Felix just, you know, hogs all the weed or whatever. And like, you know what I mean? It's like, there's wheat, right? Yeah. Yeah.

But there, you know, there are house rules that become canon, like in monopoly. You're not supposed to get money in. There's no money for landing on free parking in the rules or something. But like there's, there are some things that now people play that were never in the original rules. You can't find it in the rule book and we just all assume it's a rule. It's just how we play.

The person you played with the most growing up at their house, it was a rule. Very much a house rule sort of game. That's how Monopoly tends to go. Okay, so this is the reason why we brought this up on the show though. The Golden at Bat in and of itself, generally dumb and not gonna happen. And maybe it's a thing we see in the all-star game at most it seemed like that's where the players

that were interviewed the gold net bat is the idea is that you could Take a batter and you could just You just put a batter outside of the batting order just put them in right just so like you like someone could hit twice In a row or any scenario where you put the hitter you want We know body which is struck out by wits back up again Right stuff like that or it's a Verdugo is up with the game on the line and you're gonna go to Soto instead or judge or whatever So that's and they can't be on base and right you know you could have different restrictions and different limitations Yeah, I think it very much would have to be limited to seven eight nine, nine, two. End game only. It would be so stupid if people were just,

oh, well, the bases are loaded and our nine hitters up and we're just gonna put Otani in because we want a grand slam here and we wanna break the game open. That's not as fun. I do like to take the intentional walk away scenario. Uno reverse, uno reverse card. Yeah, like I'll give them a card, they throw on the field.

I think that's awesome because then you have to force the at bat that, I hate it when we because then you have to force the bat that I hate it when like we're anticipating this at bat. Oh, first is open and then just walk them. Yeah, that does suck. And it's also is it baseball? It's not very baseball. It's it's not action. It's it's inaction. You can break my order, but I can't break my own order. That's not cool. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. You can take the bat out of hands What if you had an ability to put bat in hands? Maybe that doesn't mean grabbing them off the route of the dugout making go hit again Maybe it's a you can't skip him

Yeah, or just a simple skip instead of going to anyone you want you just skip to the next batter So you okay? Well, you choose between your eight and your nine hitter if she happens of your nine hitter to nine in your one that hurts If you're the guy who gets Then guys gonna be keeping track how many times have I been skipped this year? You're trying to get to the hall of fame with your glove anyway, so it's a you feel good about it, right? You're one of those players. That's the story you got to tell yourself I know I mean it's it's it's it's getting too close to bases our flops

And you know if you hit this circle, you get three runs, you know, kind of stuff that I don't think we want. But my kids really like the Savannah bananas and they pushed it closer to bases are flops kind of idea where, you know, you're catching balls in the you catch a foul ball. It's an out and like, you know, like all sorts of kind of crazy rules. And my kids really liked it, you know, and I'm not saying that baseball needs to be Savannah Bananas, but you know, there's some energy there that you capture.

Also, I have never heard on I've watched basketball a fair amount. I've never heard them talk about baseball on a basketball, a basketball cast before. And I was watching a Warriors game, I think it was, and they just started talking about the golden rule, the golden at bat. And I was like, Whoa, I mean, if you think about baseball in the pantheon of other sports, the one thing that baseball can't do is put the ball in LeBron James's hands with, you know, five seconds left in the game. They cannot say, Pat Mahomes, get us, we need a touchdown.

They can't just do that. And that's part of baseball's, I know people at baseball said like, oh, we have all these heroes from our past that Aaron freaking Boone. We have all these heroes of people that were unexpected heroes and that's part of baseball's DNA. So I get both sides of it, but I can see where this came from,

which is that a jealousy of other sports of being like, man, you can just, your stars get the ball at the end of the game. Well, you get to do it on the pitching side to some degree, using the reliever you want, but yeah, not being able to do it on the hitting side is where this sort of originates I mean, yeah, we're like my first baseball memory is Francisco Cabrera in the NLCS like an extremely unlikely

Hero who has a place in baseball history at least in Braves fandom forever because it bring third No legs that were just dust It hurts watching him run the bases The things that I'm more open to I'm trying to be obvious I don't play anymore if I'm a reliever like I just got off out territory before this show and we blade trying it on I brought it up. He's like get out of here with that He's basically shut up. He's like I don't want to face so twice in a row shut off the bases

I'll walk the bases loaded before I don't want to face Soto twice in a row, shut up. I'll walk the bases loaded before I have to face Soto twice. Screw this. I'll walk them again. You can have two base runners then. The double walk. I don't care. But the big thing for me has always been,

can it be, instead of having Robo-Umps, let's do challenges. So there's a skill and it's a strategy now. You have to choose when you're using them. It's a finite resource. If it were one of those things, we're a way to get some version of this where a manager and the team savvy will come out

because they made a good decision or they had to use, they had to take away from somewhere else to use something else just to get a slight advantage in this specific situation. I like that. That's competitive. That's strategy and that's having an ace in the hole. And then you can create your own little identities. I think Mike Schilt would like it create like he'd be like, okay, so we're going to use it for this. Wouldn't their golden ad bat be Luis Arias so many times? Because it's like all

we need is the ball and play. He would. But even like the inverse, the other team, right? But then we're going to use if it were uno reverse, right? If you could uno reverse them. Or avoid somebody. Then we're always gonna use a lefty reliever for one against Arias, you know? Yeah, or the three batter rule goes away just whenever the golden bat comes up,

then you just warm the guys up. That probably won't go in. There's a whole nother thing. But like if that were a thing, it'd be really interesting to see how that's anticipated. So I just think that there's, it opens up a- It's more strategy, more ways to win, more, like it opens up more things.

So that nobody's like- We don't want to break the game. Nobody opens up Catan, and everyone knows exactly what everyone's trying to do. And we don't want Aaron Judge to end the year with 850 at best, and 85 home runs, and then you're like, oh, he can't. I have no idea how to compare this to other years. Yeah, he hits six or seven times every day.

No, now he's great to play ever. Let's take an old an old video game thing here. I want a free guy, an extra strike. So it's like one time per game. You can get just one extra strike. So you strike out and you like wave your hand like no no no we're gonna use it right now I got one more and the picture stand out there like I just got yeah I just got whatever it is make sure it pisses pictures off

Come on Trevor you you had your issues with the clock I'd be like oh, yeah, I forgot Really all I wanted I want the reverse card so that they could just stop telling me to intentionally walk people. So I'm like, no, no, no, go back. You're right, I didn't want to do that either. I wanted to face him too.

I mean, you still have to just go up there and throw pretty non-competitive pitch. You could still walk them, right? It's just. That's true, yeah. That's true. That's what Blake said. I don't know. None of this is gonna happen.

Just like relax. If you see stories about it, you're mad that we talked about it, take a breath. It's all gonna be okay. We have a game lined up for today. Might be the last one of 2024. How about I name that dude? We haven't done this in a while. You guys down for this?

I can't believe I ever won one of these. Yeah, I forget the all-time talent. I think you might you might be even all-time. I'm gonna have to go back and check the history books on this one to get some really detailed records of who's dominated name that dude in its young existence. So here we go. The rules are pretty simple. I have a series of clues about a mystery player. You know, and Trevor can get one guess each after any particular clue. If they don't get it, we keep going through all the clues. If I get through all my clues, which will not happen. I don't know. I win a prize. I don't know what the prize is yet. It's never happened. Not really that worried about it.

So name that dude. I was born on this day. December 5th is the day we're recording this, in 1972 in Chicago, Illinois. Any guesses? I just like the wild guesses. Christian Yellich. No. I know it's his birthday today, but.

It is his birthday today, but it wasn't in 78. He wasn't born in 1972. That'd be amazing. You know no guess? You know, it's making a great face right now though. It's this YouTube. That's the face I'm thinking Thinking real hard. All right next clue. I was drafted by the Expos 14th overall out of high school in the 1991 draft and I made my major league debut on September 18th, 1993. That's pretty fast for a high school player

to get to the big leagues in the early 90s. Just over two years? Any guesses? I'm almost 53 years old. You said he was drafted by who? The Expos. Yeah, yeah. 14th overall out of high school 1991 Larry Walker No

Trevor when I guess Was walking after by the Rockies all the guy all the big all the I just keep thinking of Latin guys. No, okay. We'll keep moving. He's not Latin got it my playing career ended in 2009 and I finished my career with 233 home runs 148 stolen bases and a 278 358 482 line over 17 seasons Who is the guy who was traded for Pedro? Yeah, he's in his head now.

No guesses yet? Who is the guy who traded Pedro? The second baseman? Delano De Shields? No, it's not Delano De Shields. It's not Delano De Shields. That was a good guess too. It's a fun guess though.

Pretty close in era. I think that's a similar time for baseball card purposes. Okay, next clue. In addition to the Expos, I made appearances with the Padres, Rays, Cubs, Mets, Red Sox, and Marlins. Oh my God, Journeyman. Yeah, turned into one.

Power and speed. Trapped by the Expos. Still stumped. Alright, I finished fifth in the NL Rookie of the Year vote in 1994 and made the NL All-Star team in 2001. Okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, okay, hold on. Give me a second, give me a second, give me a second. This is obvious. It's gotta be. Who is it? Gotta think of my Expos. Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Give me a second. This is obvious. It's gotta be who is it? I think my expose Frozen I'll give you another clue while you're thinking about it I might be the only player in the baseball reference database without a nickname

But I was involved in multiple trades that included the likes of and here's a trip down memory lane Dustin Hermanson Claudio Vargas Graham Lloyd Mike Mordecai, Carl Pavano, Seung Song, and Soon Woo Kim. Okay so it's... High School. Who was the shortstop there at the time? Still no guesses.

Okay, this, I think this is gonna put it over the top. I think one of you guys is gonna get it here. In the years since my career ended, I have been a regular host on shows on MLB Network and MLB Network Radio, Fox Sports Florida broadcasts, Marquee Sports Network, Apple TV Plus broadcasts, Fox Sports. Outlighter? Nope.

No, he said Homer's in Stone Bases. Oh yeah, you're right. That's a picture That's not Granderson all over all over media Mark DeRosa as a brave as a Oliver media he's all over media dude how oh My god what He's all over media. He's all over media. Dude. How? Oh my god. What? What else can I tell you about this player? No, no, no. They should be able to get this. MLB Network. There's a limited amount of guys on MLB Network.

TV and radio. He's done both. Harold Reynolds? No. He's also done some stuff on the fantasy channel actually. I did a broadcast with this guy once. What the f- Who? What other players? yonder lawns not him It's not it's not it's not a it's not the it's not the mayor God who is it?

I so parents. It's so crazy got to tell us we both get a zero have to tell you I think you guys Yeah, it's you've been flowing you guys lose. It's Cliff Floyd. Oh, god! Oh my god. Of course it's Cliff Floyd. It's Cliff Floyd. Oh! How did I not think of Cliff Floyd?

Oh, I'm so embarrassed. They even got me during a live interview, he was standing behind me and they got me to talk to him on TV. I'm so embarrassed. I'm so embarrassed. And I've never met Cliff. I'm so sorry, Cliff.

Oh my god. Sorry bud, sorry bud. Oh, power and sorry, Cliff. Oh my god. Sorry bud. Sorry about that. Oh, power and speed. Oh, you know what it was? You're 53? You don't look, you look like you're 40, bro. That's what it was.

There you go. Turn it into a compliment. One of the years we were in Arizona for our baseball conference, he was working for the Sirius XM Fantasy Channel and they sent him out there to help analyze a November draft. So he was just sitting next to me doing the analysis and looked at him like, man, you still look like you could play. Like he just. He looks good.

Dude, him and LaTroy Hawkins could just go run it back. Unreal. But really good career overall. Happy 52nd birthday to Cliff Floyd. God, I cannot believe it. You probably, all three of us probably had that baseball card on screen right now. Oh, I definitely did.

I know I did for sure. Definitely had that that tops. Expose, man. Expose. You know what I need to do? I need to I need to do a little bit of some remember some guy practice where I just like I just like look through team rosters. Just going to go read old. I used to have a baseball almanac

that I would just like sit in the back of the car and look at. Just like a read-so. Yeah. Also, I needed to point one last thing out if we're talking about little tidbits here. We feel so bad, Ian Kinsler, for your 1,999 hits. That is, that sucks. Sorry, man.

You know there's a- I should've gave one more up to you This goes for the guy who made sure to point out that Brent hit 39 Not 40. 39? 39 or 40? 39 You're just messing with him right? Yeah Horsey knows. I caught that

All right, well I get a rare win in name that dude as the host that doesn't usually happen That's a host win. Host win. W. Rare rare host W. On our way out the door, just a reminder, you can join our Discord. I'm gleaming red in shame on YouTube right now. Just come talk trash to Trevor in the Discord. The link is in the show description. That's the best way to know that they see those messages.

We are on our way to Dallas for the Winter Meetings. I hope everybody enjoys this episode. We'll have some shows each and every day. Hopefully lots of signings and trades. You never know what you're gonna get when you go to the Winter Meetings. Sometimes just a bunch of baseball writers and baseball industry people staring at each other waiting for something to happen.

I think we'll get soda. Rumors are getting pretty hot and heavy. I'm holding a binky by the way. I thought you said, good luck. You're about to get back to work. Name that dude, good luck to, yeah, so. Gotta get back to work. I'm holding a binky by the way Good luck to yeah, so I get back to back to dad duty for Trevor as well But that's gonna do it for this episode of rates and barrels were back with you on Monday. Thanks for listening The old 80s Olympic steroids. Yeah, those are the best steroids