Rates & Barrels - Dick Allen & Dave Parker to Cooperstown -- Day 1 from the Winter Meetings

Episode Date: December 9, 2024

Eno and DVR are in Dallas for Day 1 of the Winter Meetings with a trio of excellent guests! Jayson Stark of The Athletic joins the show to discuss Dick Allen & Dave Parker, who were elected to the Baseball Hall of Fame by the Classic Baseball Era Non-Players Committee on Sunday. Plus, Brewers manager Pat Murphy, and Mariners Vice President/Assistant General Manager Andy McKay discuss their paths into their respective roles and the critically important role of soft skills in their positions. Rundown 3:17 Jayson Stark Interview Begins 35:23 Pat Murphy Interview Begins 49:58 Andy McKay Interview Begins Follow Eno on Bluesky: @enosarris.bsky.social Follow DVR on Bluesky: @dvr.bsky.social e-mail: [e-mail] Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/FyBa9f3wFe Subscribe to The Athletic: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Hosts: Derek VanRiper & Eno Sarris With: Jayson Stark, Pat Murphy & Andy McKay Producer: Brian Smith Executive Producer: Derek VanRiper Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

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You know what I mean? That in a good way because of the emergency pod and Juan Soto and all the stuff we covered on Sunday night. Oh my God, it's been a whirlwind. I mean, last night we had to cover some of the biggest news we've had in a long time in baseball. And I think that there's a, talking to people in the lobby, there have been people from different teams that have said, we're glad to have gotten that out of the way, because now the other shoes can drop. And there's a decent sort of optimistic feeling

that we're going to see more smaller moves now that teams know what their budget is, they don't have Juan Soto on their budget and then the trades can start happening. I mean if you're going to build Juan Soto in the aggregate it may take some trades, it may take some signings, it may take some work so yeah I think there's gonna be a little bit more on the way. Yeah even if Juan Soto wasn't really on your flow chart, he was on enough teams flow charts where it was impacting everything. So it's great that that signing happened. A few moves have happened since we're going to push those

to our Tuesday episode. So Alex Cobb is headed to the Tigers, Blake Trine is back with the Dodgers, Jordan Romano goes to the Phillies. All that is something we're going to get to on Tuesday when we probably have more moves to talk about. The big news that was overshadowed by the Soto signing on Sunday was the addition of Dick Allen and Dave Parker to baseball's Hall of Fame. They were elected by the classic baseball era

non-players committee. So we have some guests. This is the new thing we do when we come to the winter meetings, a new. So we have some guests. This is the new thing we do when we come to the winter meetings, a new tradition that we started last year. We try to bring in as many of the great minds that are here as we possibly can.

So we have Jason Stark joining us from the athletic. And I was really happy to have him on to put that into context in particular, Dick Allen and Dave Parker, you know, it's before my time and I'm not the greatest baseball historian. So having him run us through some of their careers and tell us why they weren't in and why they did get in eventually with the the classic baseball committee that was that was a treat. Absolutely and two other guests we have

a little bit later on in the show we have Brewers manager Pat Murphy and Mariners VP Assistant General Manager Andy McKay, both to talk about their paths to their respective roles and how critically important soft skills are in their positions. Yeah, I thought both of them had really interesting backstories, got their, you know, in some ways, traditional, you might say,

oh, they were managers of college teams but they're not you could tell from the way they talked they're not maybe what you might just expect of someone who was a manager of a college team and then got to work in baseball I mean there's they were talking about different things and you might have expected to hear I think so I think those that'll be interesting for people listening. Yeah trio of great guests on this episode, so we hope that you really enjoy it. Now it is our pleasure to be joined by a Hall of Famer

from Starkville, Jason Stark. I'm in the Starkville Hall of Fame. As soon as we build it, I guarantee I'll be in it. Absolutely. So a lot going on here at the Winter Meetings in Dallas, and one particular thing we want to talk to you about is the addition of Dick Allen and Dave Parker to the Hall of Fame.

I didn't know this about you. Without Dick Allen, you might not be the Jason Stark that we have grown to know over the years. Yeah, I guess that's true. I've thought about it a lot. You know, everybody has that first baseball player that they are really a fan of, their first favorite player, and he was mine. And if you think about what it's like to watch, say, Aaron Judge now, you know, a human being

who does stuff that you didn't know human beings could do, who hits baseballs where you didn't think human beings could hit them. That's what Dick Allen was to me. I'd never seen a, not just a baseball player, but a human being who was capable of doing that stuff. And I was just mesmerized by him, the things he could do, and the fact that there was this sport that made it all possible.

And it really made me a baseball fan. And look where that's led me. Right here, sitting next to you guys. You know, he seemed like such a character, but didn't always open up to the media. What did you know about his personality then and now? Yeah, I mean, the sad thing is I never had a conversation with Tecal and he wasn't a guy who made himself available to people like me even when I was working in Philadelphia. So what I know about him is really through his friends and his teammates and the reverence

that they had for him is remarkable. You know Mike Schmidt, I think we can agree, right, is probably the greatest third baseman who ever lived, all around third baseman. And if you ever talk to Mike Schmidt about Dick Allen, when Dick Allen arrived in Philadelphia he changed the arc of Mike Schmidt's journey. One of those people who taught him how to play baseball, play winning baseball, to play out every moment on a baseball field and gave him the confidence and the energy to become the player he became.

The people who played with Dick Allen, even at that late stage of his career, told those stories over and over and over again. And it's just so different than the narrative of Dick Allen's life and times, because there was so much controversy, so much. And I didn't get into it that much in the Kyle Meyer road after he got elected because I've been there, done that.

But you know, he came to Philadelphia at a time when like there were no black baseball stars or sports stars in Philadelphia. And that was, we can't even imagine how hard that was. I talked to Jim Cot about him. Is that before Dr. J? Well his first time around was the 60s, right? 63, 64. The second time was around Dr. J, if I remember right.

The 70s. Yeah, mid 70s. So the around Dr. J. I remember right? The 70s. Yeah, mid 70s. So the first time... Interesting. I mean, it's hard to look back on this now, but Jim Cot told me that if Dick Allen had come up with say the Cardinals, when somebody like Bob Gibson was already there. Strong presence. And...

Someone else to talk to that knew some of your... Yeah, everything would have been different. He would have had, right, he would have had people who could relate to his experience, and he had someone to pave the way. He wasn't equipped to pave the way, and it led to a lot of stuff. And because there was so much of that stuff, he didn't accumulate the volume numbers that

Hall of Fame voters of his time needed to see to vote for him. 351 homers. Right. Like what was a Hall of Fame slugger in the 60s, 70s? 500 homeruns. You better hit 500, man. 600, 700. He hit 351. It just wasn't enough. I told this story a few times, written it a couple times, the athletic, but his last year on the baseball writers' ballot, I'd become a voter, so I had a couple chances to vote for him and did not for that reason the county numbers and so my

mom who had become a baseball fan because she had a son who was a baseball writer called me up and said well how did Dick Allen do in the Hall of Fame vote and I said yeah he didn't make it mom and she said you know Jason he didn't have the numbers. How my mother had any idea that was true? I still have no idea, right? But he didn't have the numbers that we looked at then, but he totally has the numbers that we use now. We're so lucky to live in a world that we live in now,

where you guys know the numbers that you looked at that you look at every single day to evaluate players and when you have those numbers and drop them in the Dick Allen column everything changes. Yeah yeah and that's that's the only that's the only visualization I have of Dick Allen is looking at the numbers on baseball reference and fan graphs. I go, wait, what were they missing at that time? This guy's clearly a Hall of Famer. I mean, a 912 OPS not in the Hall of Fame, 58.7 B-War.

That's just an obvious Hall of Famer to me. I can't believe it was, I can't believe it took this long. 55% better than league average with the stick. I mean, it's... And the 11-year peak with an OPS Plus 65% better than league average is staggering. It's just kind of a fun little thought exercise. Yesterday I thought, I wonder how many active players have ever had an 11-year period like that. One name, Mike Trout.

Mike Trout, yeah. That is the only guy. And that should tell us something. Young Mike Trout is the only other player that we've witnessed who did that. Now look, Pugles, Cabrera, those guys, they had some stretches like that. But we're talking about first ballot Hall of Famers.

Could you tell me a little bit about the process in between dropping off the ballot and then getting on to the veterans committee? This is a veterans committee vote? Yeah well I mean he... Yeah there's been three or four different variations of the veterans Committee that looked at him. Now he never was close on the writer's ballot. And so then when he first appeared on Veterans Committee ballots, this was the time when, if you remember this, the Veterans Committee consisted of all the living Hall of Famers had a vote. They did it, they voted, this was over six years or eight years, whatever.

Did they vote anybody in? The complete total of players that they elected was zero. Yeah, nobody's as good as us. That's exactly right. They looked at everybody and thought, not as good as us, not in our club. So that system went out the window. Then we've had different variations of the committee that have considered him and you

know he missed by one vote in 2014, right? I want to say. And nobody got elected that year. And what's the new format for people who don't know? Okay, well back then it was 16 people in a room, but they each had four slots in the ballot. And then that was also the case the last time when you missed by one vote. This time was harder because it's 16 voters, but they only have three slots.

So if you start to do the math how hard it is to get 12 votes, there's 48 total slots. So if you start to do the math how hard it is to get 12 votes when there's 48 total slots. And so the committee this time, I can't remember everyone who was on it, but there was a there were two basically Negro League historians. I thought that might mean Vic Harris had a chance. Where Josh Donaldson was on this ballot. Right, right and then Where Josh Donaldson was on this ball. Right, and then... John Donaldson. Was he the old goaltender for the Rangers?

No. Sorry, I digress. So there were two Negro League historians. We had Steve Hurt, long time historian for the Alaya Sports Bureau, now with stats, but has served in these committees many times, including with me.

And then we have two Hall of Fame baseball writers, Bob Elliott and De Kagle were both there. So that was five members of the committee. And then the rest is Hall of Fame players and a group of executives. It's an interesting mix. It's a really interesting process and I've participated in it. It's a really valuable...

Do they meet and talk about it? Yes. It is a thing where you get together at nine in the morning and you start talking about every single player until you're done. And then you submit your vote. And then there's a secret vote at the end. And I mean I can tell you like my experience doing it was incredible.

I was with a bunch of great people, great thoughtful players. Does it get argumentative? Does it get heated? Yes, it does. It can. I can't talk about too many details of it, but I can tell you that, you know, my role as a little shocky guy was, we'd get to the player, everybody kind of look at me.

So I would say, this is the case for this guy. But here's why I think he never got elected by the writers. Then I would turn to these Hall of Fame players in the room and say, what did you guys see? And they see different things than we see. Their perspective was amazing. And so the process has produced some really good hall of fame choices of people we've overlooked,

to Gallin being one of them, right? And Ted Simmons was on our ballot, the year that I was on the committee, and I think we changed the path of Ted Simmons was on our ballot the year that I was on the committee. And I think we changed the path of Ted Simmons' life with the conversation that day, even though we didn't elect him to be missed by one. But I think it paved the way for the next time. And Dick Allen missed by one three years ago, and it paved the way for this time. And so we also have Dave Parker getting elected.

It's a slightly different story for him in terms of he's more of a beloved character. Is what is my, I'm not, I'm an amateur historian. Or at least he's become more beloved after the plane days. I don't know. There were a lot of people that were happy about Dave Parker the person being elected. I would say that the numbers, the numbers that we look at seem to not be there necessarily for him. Yeah, Dave Parker's a really interesting case because he arrived in Pittsburgh in the mid 1970s

and had five seasons, I fooled around with this. I don't think there's any other right fielder who had his first five full seasons, other than Hank Aaron. He was... Yeah, he had like a 310 average, averaging like 25 homers a year, 100 runs and 100 RBI, something like that.

Yeah, a bunch of steals. Yeah. And a gold glove, and 26 assists one year out of the outfield. Wow. Stuff that people don't see people do. Why is the middle missing out of the field? Okay, so that's kind of the issue is they won the World Series, he won the MVP, he was the best player in the sport, he was the All-Star Game MVP if I remember right, and then he

signed the Pirates, committed to him, and he signed a big contract and it went off the rails in every possible way. And if you, I mean I don't want to go through this, but if you Google Pittsburgh drug trial, you'll read some stuff about Dave Parker and the whole franchise unraveled, not just him. And so it took a long time. He had to leave Pittsburgh to get back on track. Yeah. It just, for him to get his life on track, not just his career, took a long time.

But once he did, I guess beloved is a good word for him in those clubhouses because he was such a presence. Yeah, Dave Parker had a huge presence. Mark, Mark two, did Parker part two really? Yeah, so, you know, except for the one year in Cincinnati when he was runner up for MVP, I don't think the numbers are there. I mean, he was like a one win player,

half win player for the rest of his career, but he was such a presence in the batter's box. He was such a presence in every clubhouse he was in. He had many thoughts. And he'd been through a lot. He'd been there and he'd done it, whatever the heck it was. And people listened to him. And so, you know, he was part of a really good team in Cincinnati.

He was part of a really good team in Oakland. They don't think that's an accident. In the end, I think that really helped him get there. Tony Perez wasn't on those teams in Cincinnati, but saw it. Sandy Alderson had him in Oakland and saw it. I think that started a conversation in that room that was different than any conversation ever had About him in those committees because he'd never gotten close and he got more votes than Dick Allen who'd missed by one Yeah

Interesting. I mean it it's and and you know in some ways it's it's fun because you know He's still alive, you know the bronze santo thing he gets in right after he dies and terrible Yeah, and you know the gallon pretty much the same thing. Yeah, so that's we've had too much of that Yeah too much so and I'm happy for it, you know, just a sort of a general way, you know I might not have I would not I would not have voted for Harold Baines and you know I may not have voted for Dave Parker, but I'm not as concerned that there's any sort of softening of the standards because you don't necessarily, when you are voting for the next person, you don't necessarily take a single player to make the

case. You don't take the next outfielder and say, well, Dave Parker is in, so I'm now going to put this outfielder and say, well, Dave Parker is in, so I'm now going to put this outfielder in. You kind of take the median. And yes, maybe it will change the median a little bit, but it doesn't change it much. And I think you can still be happy for Hal Baines and Dave Parker and still have different numerical standards

that you would normally use. Tell me all the egregious errors that have been made on people with great counting numbers since Harold Baines. I don't see any. In fact, I think it's really going the other way. And I think we're valuing peak now more because also the game is changing. We're not getting guys who get the same. We don't have those numbers.

Right. You can't count anymore because nobody gets to those spots. So we're seeing this shift to gallons. A great example of it. I think we're seeing a time where voters would feel better about casting a Hall of Fame vote for somebody that they saw play who for a period of time, whether it was five years, seven years, eight years, ten years, eleven years, whatever, where you looked at that guy and said, wow, that guy's a star.

That guy's one of the best players I have seen play. And vote for that and that quality and that level of ability and that peak over a bunch of county numbers. And I think that's a good trend. We've seen it in our elections, the writers' elections, over the last few years, and I will tell you when we're really going to see it. Two years from now, Buster Posey arrives in the ballot. I don't know if you've taken a look at Buster Posey's numbers.

Does Buster Posey feel like a Hall of Famer? Do you guys? I did write a piece for the Athletics saying he didn't. Okay, so you know, how many career hits did he have? No one looks to me for their Hall of Famer. Yeah. I thought he was in two, and I think I was recording a pod with Keith Law at the time, and Keith's like,

no, we were just completely split, at least off the cuff. I think he gets in first bow, but it's not a slam dunk. And I think he gets in, if he does it in first, like first three years or something. Well, he got 1,500 career hits. And that's really low. There's no such thing as a Hall of Famer

that we elected that. Less than 1,800 or something? Yeah, right? And so how are we going to look at Buster Posey? Tell me for a decade he wasn't, at least in the argument for best catcher in baseball, and one of the best players in baseball, if not the heir to Derek Jeter. Rookie of the Year, MVP, three World Series, face of his franchise, one of the faces of the sport. I mean these are all the reasons I

think he gets my vote. The bullet points of the faces of the sport. I mean these are all the reasons I think he's the I think it's my vote. Yeah. The bullet points on the resume beyond the stats on the back of the baseball card are so impressive for Buster Posey that I think it elevates the lack of quantity. Right. Okay but when Buster Posey gets in, think about how that changes the conversation.

I mean I voted last year for David Wright to keep him on the ballot to keep him in the discussion until Buster Posey arrives. Chase Utley is that kind of player. We're going to see a lot more of it on the pitching side honestly. Because CC is like the last volume play that we're going to see I think for a long time. You're going to see a 250 game winner? Yeah, I mean, you know. Luckily he has the peak also, but...

You know, I've been looking at players with more of a cohort, sort of like five years before and five years after, sort of a ten-year window. Yeah. And if you look at Felix Hernandez, among that ten-year window, people born five years before and five years after, he's the fifth best pitcher of his time.

I was just gonna bring that up. And he does not have the quantity. And I think he's not going to do that well this time because CC will still be there for more of the quantity people. But once CC's in... What's a Hall of Fame starter look like after that? How are we even going to use wins? I don't think we can.

We'll have Gary Cole at some point, but... We won't be able to use wins. Okay. And you won't be able to use wins. I don't care what Gary Cole at some point but we won't be able to use them okay and you won't be able to use strikeouts you know you'll have to use you you'll have to use things that are more about the you know Jaws has like a Jaws 7 like you have to look at the seven best years of the K percentage 7 yeah yeah okay your K percentages stuff like that here's the question I love to throw out there. K percentages relative to your league. Right at that that time, yep. Yeah, we'll be all over all that stuff. How many healthy starting pitchers in their 20s have 65 career wins as we're sitting here

right now? Zero? It's zero. Yeah, it's zero. I'm not talking about 165 or 265. 65, that's zero. Yeah, it's zero. I'm not talking about 165 or 265. 65, that's it. You know what we also need to fix is qualifying for the ERA title. We had like 65 pitchers qualify for the ERA title this year.

I don't know. There's a lot we need to address. Get on that, will ya? Come on, you know. You know how to have a bad trivia experience about an hour ago and I think he's trying to write that wrong. Oh my god, I'm so bad at trivia, I'm sorry. Just make it a point. You don't need to get that one right.

But it's incredible to think of, try to kind of play, what's a Hall of Fame starting pitcher going to look like? You'll get a wave with Verlander, Scherzer, Kershaw, there'll be easy. Gary Cole at some point I think is going to be easy, barring something unforeseen. Then what? Then who? I mean, is Zach Wheeler going to sail into the Hall of Fame with like 130 wins or whatever? Right? Might.

Yeah. It really does depend on the next five years for Zach Wheeler still. I think he needs... He's only under contract for... Three. Three? Three. And pitchers are falling behind even more than position plays. We're electing fewer people. I mean, you, three. Yeah. And pitchers are falling behind even more than position plays. We're electing fewer people.

I mean, you know this. We've dropped below 1%. Yeah. And so I think pitchers are doing worse than hitters even. And so it's the beginning of refashioning maybe of our benchmarks. Yeah, I mean, we should constantly be redefining what is a Hall of Famer.

I don't see any problem with that. The people who comment on our eloquent stories and tell us how we are cheapening the Hall of Fame by electing, filling whatever blank you'd like to fill in, are people who are still hung up on the way Hall of Famers used to be elected. We don't live in that world. Let's live in this world and compare players to their world. That's another thing. You're like, oh, you're comparing these guys like Willie Mays and Nolan Ryan.

It's like, well, I don't know. The game is different now. We can have people that are not as good as Willie Mays and Nolan Ryan that are also in the Hall of Fame No kidding if you're trying to compare feelings Hernandez to old Hoss Radburn That was a little different yeah, yeah, we look at old Hoss Radburn's Hall of Fame plaque Started last 21 games of season Three days rest about no days rest?

21 in a row. It's actually only the mid-70s where they stopped having starters on three days rest. I saw a graph recently of three days. Three days rest was something that was actually more common, even in the 70s. That's amazing. Yeah.

I mean, that's a good question. Dylan sees three days rest. I don't know. Who's the last player who started on short rest in a regular season? In a regular season game. Who? I think. Yeah, that's.

It might have come like they did a one inning start because of something happened and they came back. Right. Put a real one. The Brewers this year when they didn't even have a rotation in the same believe they started. They had an opener. Yeah, yeah, yeah, an opener.

Those openers always screw up our queries. Yeah, yeah, yeah. An opener. Those openers always screw up our queries. Like Pat Murphy said to me one day, how many people do you think in baseball could name our rotation? I said that's a trick question because you don't have one. That's where we're at. That's where we are. With Uber Reserve, good things come to those who plan ahead.

Family vacay? Reserve your ride as soon as you book your flights. To all the planners, now you can reserve your Uber ride up to 90 days in advance. See Uber app for details. It was worse with the Tigers too. I feel like they were even further down in the second half. Max Chaos in October.

That's right. We were just talking to Terry Francona about it. He said, you know, I watch a lot of baseball now. The only thing that bothers me is when you're watching a postseason baseball game and relievers are starting those games, I would like to see us do something about that. Yeah, like what? Yeah, what's the solution?

Figure it out, because everybody's looking for one. If the best team in baseball wins playoff games that way, Yeah, like what? Yeah, what's the solution? Figure it out, because everybody's looking for one. If the best team in baseball wins playoff games that way, other teams are going to do it beyond the necessities. Strategically, it actually works if you do it carefully. Well, the Dodgers played postseason games that way. Did they actually win any? They basically were, they forfeited three games in this post postseason in the LCS and the World Series. Started with either fell behind left that guy in didn't

care. They did well with it in 2020 they've done well with it overall. I know yeah I know they're pretty smart about how they do things. Andrew's another guy I've accused of not caring if he has rotation. Yeah just enough arms to get there. They try. So Blake Snell probably won't pitch 130 innings. Does he care? No.

No. Doesn't care at all. And his old organization's similar. Very much. That's how this started. Yeah. I got one more name to throw out there before we go. Okay.

Jacob DeGrom. His resume so far. Now he's coming back from his second Tommy John surgery. He's at an age at this point now, he's 36 years old, still has time left in that deal with the Rangers. The numbers on a per season basis He might not get 120 wins. are phenomenal,

but the durability has been a major problem, especially in recent years. Is he gonna get to 100 wins? Yeah, I mean, he's at 94. 84. 84? 84, yeah. At this pace. Will he going to get to 100 wins? Yeah, I mean, he's at 94? 84. 84? Yeah. At this pace.

Will he get to 1500 innings? He'll get to 1500 innings this year, right? That's possible. 133 would get him to 1500. I think he'll get to 100 wins. How much can we safely project he's going to pitch? Yeah. That's an almost impossible question.

It's an impossible question. It's an awesome thing to watch him when he does pitch. And he's got like per inning closer type numbers. Like you could actually, what if you just put him in the closer bug and said, is he better than Billy Wagner? That's a really good, somebody else made that point to me. That, what's the difference between Billy Wagner and Jacob deGrom? I mean, two to two ERA career. What's the difference between Billy Wagner and Jacob deGrom? Billy Wagner was historically great when he pitched.

Jacob deGrom is, I think you could argue, historically great when he pitches. I think the difference is what are their job descriptions. Billy Wagner had a really different job description than Jacob deGrom's job description. I know we're changing that, but can we change it retroactively? I don't know that that's allowed. We can do whatever we want. It's our vote. I'm sure somebody will vote for Jacob deGrom.

I understand why you would. But there's a lot of people in the sort of analytics fan graphs, sort of the play in my milieu that that would not maybe vote for some of any of these relievers or some like most of these like maybe not even vote for Billy Wagner because you're you know if you're talking about pure value wins above replace whatever I actually am more of in a bucket that I would rather compare Billy Wagner to his peers right being relievers right but so then I would put de Grom in I I guess, with the starting pitchers.

That's what I'm trying to say. Keith doesn't vote for Billy Wagner. I don't know that he's voted for any closer except Mariano. I could be wrong. And that's a milia thing. Yeah, totally. You said it. Billy Wagner could only do the job he was asked to do.

And Jacob DeGrom could only pitch the innings he can physically pitch. But it wasn't the definition of starting pitcher. And he didn't set out to redefine it. It just became a thing because of who he was. What he was capable of physically. This is Billy or this is those this is no This is Jacob DeGraw. So when he does appear on our ballot, we're gonna have to think through all of this stuff It's I'm open to thinking through any of it and all of it. I just don't see how the How there's a framework or a precedent

that says somebody like that, who's so far outside the norm of a Hall of Fame starting pitcher, could get elected. I don't know what the reaction would be of the Hall of Fame starters who are alive now. And coming to Cooperstown, I think of Maddox and Glavin and Smoltz with their massive win titles and what they would think of a guy who got

elected to the Hall of Fame as a starting pitcher with I'm gonna give you a hundred wins a hundred and six career wins and they won 300! Yeah. How many innings did Kofax have? He's like the short peak guy. Kofax is the only exception. And because he was a legend, and an October legend, who won the Cy Young every year, threw two no-hitters every year, won the last game of the World Series. Still got 165 wins. 165. And you know I once wrote a book on the most overrated...

And that doesn't count post seasons. You were saying there's post season innings. Well post season is pretty incredible. Kofax has almost a thousand more regular season innings than DeGrom. Did you? I don't think I've looked at that. A.95 ERA in 57. Who's the greatest postseason pitcher ever? So, you know, 10 years ago I wrote a book on the most overrated and underrated players of all time.

And just to be clear, it's not a he stinks, he's great book. It's a, the perception probably doesn't match your reality or vice versa book. You had him under Raven? Sandy Koufax was the most overrated left handed starting pitcher of all time in my book because and he had, how many great years? What would you say?

You know, I'll go with whatever number you pick, four, five or six. How many great years? Five? Five. Probably five, right? Yeah. His career was 12.

What do we do about the other half of his career? And so it was just that. He was not that good from 19 to 22. There were different rules then. He was forced to stay in the big leagues at a really young age. While he was figuring out, while he was trying to learn how to throw strikes, there was all of that in play. But it all happened. at a really young age while he was figuring out, while he was trying to learn how to throw strikes. There was all of that in play.

But it all happened. It all counted. And we're just going to ignore it because we love his story. And then he also benefits from the fact that Tommy John surgery had not been invented. So he was dominating in the October shadows and walked away. He didn't come back and pitch those 10 years. He had no decline. There was no decline phase.

We have no memory of him trying to hang on. Even the late Felix. Yeah, right. There was no hanging on. He was great and then he was gone and he was a legend. And he got into the Hall of Fame at age 35 and he's been coming back for 50 years. That's his story. It's an incredible story and I don't I don't mean to diminish his greatness but he's the one outlier in

the hall of a player like that. We shouldn't and I just said earlier we shouldn't necessarily use one player to make our case for a next Hall of Fam. You did say that. And he's a really convenient one to use for anybody who had a five year... Buster Bozzi walked into the sunset. I heard, I mean I just did a reader mailbag, Hall of Fame mailbag, and somebody used the term COFAX-esque to describe Dustin Petroja, which would surprise both of them. But just in terms of how long the peak was,

and then got hurt, was done, I get it. I get it. I don't think, yeah. We won't talk about this about it. You'll have plenty of time to talk about this. Yeah, we have plenty of time, right. This was, yesterday was really interesting day. I didn't see Dave Parker coming.

I was, I had a lot of work to do and research to do on Dave Parker last night. I thought maybe Louis Tion was gonna get it yesterday. I wondered about that myself. I did a lot of work on him, thinking that could happen. Well, someday, down the road. Thanks. You never know. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for coming on. Love talking to you guys. Love listening to you guys. Well, someday down the road. Thanks. You never know. Thanks so much.

Thanks so much for coming on. Love talking to you guys. Love listening to you guys. Thanks, Jason. Now it is our pleasure to be joined by Brewers manager Pat Murphy, reigning 2024 NL manager of the year. How does that title feel, Pat? I don't think about it.

When you say it, it just doesn't. It's an organizational award. It's about players. We're there to impact if we can open hole like offensive linemen we open holes and they run through they run through I had a great group of guys great staff great front office and everything worked out and it makes me look good. We're talking to people about their backgrounds and sort of how they got to where they were You were the head baseball coach at ACA ASU and in Notre Dame

What were you before that and how did you get there? I was a minor league player. I was a division three football baseball coach That was very common to be coupled together. Uh-huh. I didn't know which way I was going to go because I love coaching football. So it was something that just happened. Notre Dame had a job and it was really a part-time job and they weren't looking for anything too special and I was lucky enough to be that not so special guy. Things just turned to gold. No, no.

Things turned to gold and yeah, very lucky. But I did a lot of things. I worked internationally with the Dutch. I coached and managed in minor league baseball way before I even got a division one job. So yeah, I was willing to go anywhere anytime. So between Notre Dame and ASU, there was time in the line?

No, not between. Before. Before that, interesting. I was a head coach in college at 23. Wow. So, not a very good one, but I was there. I've heard some comments about what you learned from your time. Maybe you were a little bit more fiery.

What did you learn from your time at ASU? Well, I mean, I learned from every stop. But you get to a point in coaching. The coaching profession is really special to me. And you get to a point where the wins reinforce that you think you're good. But it really shouldn't be that way. I was very, my heart was in the right place,

but then it became a little bit about me and it became about winning more important than impacting these young people's lives. And when that happens, your ego gets involved, then you're on a train wreck. And I did that for a while. even though I kept getting off for jobs and I kept winning games, you know, I wasn't the type of coach that I would want my kid to play for. How did you learn about it?

No, but how? Was there a moment? Was there something happened? Well, I mean, I met some great people and had some great guy named Harvey Dorfman who's no longer with us, kind of a renowned sports psychologist. I got lucky enough to be around him. Guy named Bob Welch who's no longer with us but Welch he was a Cy Young winner and an addict and I came from a family of addicts so I was very comfortable with him. We became really really close and

he turned me on to Harvey and Harvey did so much to help enlighten me about what is this profession about? And then it started to make sense. So it's more of a gradual change? Yeah, I mean, it started to make sense like it ain't about me. And as soon as you make it not about you, then it can be great. I think that's the big thing. It's a life work.

Coaching, although people take it for different reasons, I'm really a stickler about these young coaches understanding that this is a life work. You have a responsibility, whether you like it or not, that can really impact people in a huge way. So I don't care what you're getting paid. I don't care how many hours you work. Make sure it's not about you and it's about the player. One thing I wanted to ask you in particular, having coached at so many different levels over the years, how do you help players who are meeting failure for the first time? The first time baseball is difficult. Jackson Churio, for example. The first time baseball was difficult for him was probably opening day 2024,

maybe the first two months of the season, and then it all clicked. So how did you help him work through those first couple of months? I thought you were very patient as an organization and rightfully so. Right. And it paid off immediately. Yeah, it wasn't just me. That's for sure. Um, his teammates, number one, um, his upbringing helped him because his

character was already there. I mean, he's got character and that smile on his face was still there. And you know, his yearning to get it right. And he had to get himself into a spot where he felt worthy. He felt like I'm important to this team and I have a spot. I think what you do is you continue to let him know that you're valuable to us and that everybody goes through this. Whether it's on the front end or after a great start and then you go through it we've seen it all but it's really important in my

mind where you know that's when they need you the most you know so how do you how do you manage that relationship of you know your tactician you're in a leadership position but you're also someone who wants to make this space as safe a space as you can for them. One thing I noticed was I was hanging out with you in the clubhouse, and you were just letting us into some of your back story of your fighting days, because we were just talking about boxing. And I made a little sort of offhand comment

to Devin Williams later when I talked to him about it He's like oh, yeah, like we know all about that boxing days And so it's clear to me that like you offer yourself to them in in their space somehow Is it is it their space is it your visitor in their space? I mean, yeah, I don't I don't want to go in their space very much But I'm very much a communicator and very much I want to I want to let them know I love them and I want to show them that I love them and that's that's not something you can just carry in with you You got to develop that over time because some of them are tough to love and those are the ones that need to love the most

so it's like You know You're building individual relationships with every one of these guys, but you've got to get that trust and that love, and then you've got to stir that up inside of there. You have to have some great leaders in there, and then when that happens, then you're an open book, and you live together for six months, and you're on this journey together, and you're vulnerable, but you know you've got each other's back. That's a fun group to be around. So you have a lot of flexibility in roles in the organization. I think the roster is built so well. You have a lot of athleticism in the outfield.

You have guys that can play shortstop, multiple guys that can play shortstop well. With William Adam is leaving. Now you've got a couple guys to choose from. Could be changes to the roster. How do you get buy-in when playing time is not guaranteed for the guys that are the most versatile? Like how do you do it? How do you balance that for them?

Knowing that they're important, but not necessarily on the line of cart every single day. Well, the most important thing is hungry players, you know, that have good leadership in that clubhouse, they understand, hey, this isn't about me Just like I'm talking about the coaching world. This isn't about me. They can become offensive lineman, too Hey, just do you do what you're supposed to do get the play go out the line of scrimmage block who you're supposed to block and don't look for the credit and

You just kind of promote that kind of stuff over and over. You promote the fact that this is a team and that high tide lifts all boats. You know what I mean? And it's going to work and your time will come. It's a long season and these young guys don't realize how long the season is. So yeah, it becomes, I think, it becomes where it kind of gets infectious. Everybody starts having that good attitude The ones that don't stand out so much that you know it's easy to see who it is and you don't let them Drift off too far either. You know they get down in the hole They need you to reach down and know that even though you're being a you know

Horses, but We can reach down you're always going to be redeemable, right? You can always come back in. No doubt. It's funny that there's a lot of people here looking for jobs and at all different levels. So you probably had the most experience sort of filling out a coaching staff. But when you're hiring or when you are filling out a coaching

staff, when you are looking for people you're going to work with, what are some of the sort of temperament skills? What are the things that you look for in people you want to work with, what are some of the sort of temperament skills, what are the things that you look for in people you want to work with? I always make a joke about this. I say when I'm interviewing a guy, and he mentions the word loyalty more than once, he's out.

That's a given. Because it's a given. It's a given. You don't need to say it. We're all loyal until we're not. You know what I mean? You got a better job offer. And then it's like, and then if they start mentioning work

ethic, they mention it. It's a given. It's a life work. Right. And I'm not easy to interview with, because I'm not going to ask you standard questions and get standard answers that I already know how you're going to answer it. I'm trying to to ask you standard questions and get standard answers that I already know how you're going to answer it.

I'm trying to look for something a little deeper, you know? And I ask them questions that might derail them a little bit, but that's good. See how they react to it. Yeah, I'm also not very good at it, so I take other people's recommendations. Well, what would you do if you gave advice to somebody here? It sounds like you might tell them to be themselves or, you know. Of course, be authentic. But don't try to pretend like you know the job,

because you don't know the job. If you knew the job, you wouldn't be looking for a job. So you go in with hat in hand, and go in with, you know, humble and understanding that like somebody's going to take a chance on you and you're going to show them that you're flexible and you're willing to do whatever and nothing's beneath you and it's not about you and that you have a skill set at least to communicate with people and be honest and be authentic and the rest is, this isn't science this is about people yeah now I get it the R&D people have all these skills to do stuff behind the scenes but for the jobs that I'm involved with this is about people and

let's keep it that way you know and if it isn't about people that we're in the wrong wrong spot yeah I mean I'd argue I'm come from a little bit more the analytics side I'd argue that you, being able to communicate what you found is just as important as doing the research. So, you know, it's often about people on that end too. And not acting like, oh, I got it. Right, yeah. Look what I found for you. Yeah, 100%.

I mean, I think that's half the thing is that we... I make the front office guys sit in every meeting I have. Because I want them to understand where I'm coming from. I don't totally understand where they're coming from. I'm trying to understand that too. But I at least want to have them in our meetings so they can look at... They can look there and go, wow, he talks about this. And they little more understand like when I say the threat of the steel even though analytics says the stolen base isn't always

the best yeah there's a certain you know times to do it so you shouldn't do it too much sometimes I think the threat of it affects how other people play absolutely yeah if that's the case I know it affects the way we play. So if that's the case, then why wouldn't we if we have that type of team? Put the pressure on. Yeah. Yeah. I think you can pursue that. You can find evidence of that. I think you can look at pitcher's command with a location score and see that it might fluctuate. It might be able to. Or a guy. There's a piece on Fangrass today about he thinks that people don't steal bases enough. He says that we found a break even point and it says 70% is the break even point, don't

take chances past 70%. He says he made a math argument for going past 70%. Really? You know, pushing the pedal to the metal. So if he's in on your meetings with you and he hears you say that, he can say, well, it's funny, I just did this study and I think you might be right you know that even if the numbers don't prove it yeah you can't you really can't you can't discount discount what in that moment how it affected that game you

know yeah it well that seems like it's experience to its understanding being in situations multiple times realizing what works and what doesn't and being able to quickly adjust on the fly. Like that's not, there's not always a chance to look at the sheet, to look at the tablet, to make the adjustment. Like sometimes you just gotta go. And the better you can get on the same page in those instances, I think the more success

you're gonna have. Oh, no doubt. I think also, you know, sometimes, you know, when we're studying something, you're only as good as the data or the tech that's coming in. And if you say, you know, oh no, the old school has it all wrong, bunting is stupid, don't bunt. And then you actually get player tracking, you realize, oh, when you offer up a bunt, that third baseman comes in two steps, and you're more likely to hit the ball over him

the next time. So even that sacrifice bunt or that missed bunt attempt or whatever actually changed something on the... So we often come around, I think, in the numbers side and say, no, you guys were right. Or not even right or wrong. Humility, I think, is a big word you said. It is. It's not if you're right or wrong. It's if you can understand the process of trying to win the game.

Sometimes has to do with the psyche of the opponent. And if, for instance, this year, seven times this year, we attempted a bunt in the first two pitches, later in the at bat, the player homered. Seven times. Wow. I don't know what that is league wide. It seems like a lot. That's always something that I notice when I'm watching though.

But think about that. Yeah. Why did that happen? Is there a correlation? I can't tell you there is. I must see a mindset thing where the pitcher thinks, this guy's just trying to go on base. He's not trying to hit for power.

Or like this guy's trying to bunt. Like, yeah, right. There you go. It might impact the next pitch that's called, right? The catcher's thinking about that bunt now, adjusting accordingly. And I believe in in that I believe in that. Yeah, that's a fascinating way to think about it. Yeah We yeah, we really appreciate your time. Are you kidding? Really really love meet new people and sharing things. Yeah. Yeah, I remember you from this year and that was fun

So yeah, thanks a lot for coming on. Oh, you got it. Thanks a lot Pat That was fun. Thanks a lot for coming on. You got it. My pleasure. Thanks a lot, Pat. Now, it is our pleasure to be joined by Mariners Vice President Assistant General Manager Andy McKay. Andy, thank you so much for joining the show.

Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity to come and hang out with you guys for a little bit. We've been in touch. Another NorCal guy. That's right. We've been in touch for a while. But one of the things that we're talking about here you know is about the job. Not so necessary we're not we won't ask as many questions about the Mariners we're

talking more about your background getting to this moment and and you know you've got a you've you've done a really interesting even in just the last few years a really interesting different number of roles. Like you were on the coaching staff a couple years ago. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about what you've done with the Mariners and then even before that, you were a head coach at a university?

You know, I don't know if it's an interesting story, but it's a unique path. Yeah. So when I walk through these, I don't wanna pick your brain,, I want to pick your brain. You don't want to pick my brain. This is not happening. But yeah, I mean, I'll try to give it to you in two minutes.

OK. I was a really bad player in college. But I was very fortunate. I was with phenomenal programs. And Sacramento City College, a local community college right where I'm from, Jerry Weinstein, and 55 major league players, multiple managers, multiple farm directors, scouting directors

had come through this program. And so I went there. Were you there at the same time as Jerry Watson? He was my coach. And then I was his assistant for about 10 years. Wow. But I left. I went to the University of Tampa, where I was so bad,

they actually made me coach. So I went from playing to coaching in the middle of my junior year of college. But again, it was one of the best things that ever happened. We won the national championship. I'll give you $100 if you can guess who we beat for the national championship, 1993. Oh, it wasn't like one of the big ones, Texas? No, it was Division II baseball.

Oh, Division II. Oh, no. Did you beat Menlo? No, but we beat Cal Poly in their last year of being a Division II, oh no, did you beat like Menlo? But we beat Cal Poly in their last year of being a Division II school. So anyways, we won the national championship and then I went home and I started coaching for Jerry at Sacramento City College

and I went to grad school at Sac State. I got a master's degree in organizational behavior and leadership. At that point, I met Ken Raviza, kind of the godfather of mental skills. So now I've got this mentorship going on between Jerry Weinstein and Ken Raviza simultaneously. That it's worth millions of dollars. Jerry is a legendary I mean, think of people know of dollars. I mean Jerry is a legendary,

I mean people know of him mostly I think as a coach, a coach of catchers in particular, but he's just a legendary baseball coach. He's done it all. I mean he's been a high school coach. He was a coach at UCLA with John Wooden, when Jerry was coaching the freshman baseball team, Wooden was still in his prime. That's cool.

Jerry just took a job with the Cubs. I think he's 80, 81 right now. And he's still open-minded. Very much so. We've been having this real big debate online with some people being all against one knee down. And it's like, if you look at baseball, most teams have decided that that debate's over.

And they're not doing it because it's getting them people worse. No. And they didn't do it without studying it. And Jerry's one of the oldest school catching coaches. And he could be easily one of the people that's like, oh, One Knee Down sucks. But no, he's like, I've looked at the numbers. I've looked at it. I've studied it. If there was one thing I learned from Jerry, and I mean this sincerely because I learned

so many things, but just the idea of being a professional student. Yeah. And it was, you know, what do you believe in? Well, I believe in getting better. I believe in learning and growing. And it's always evolving and always evolving. And, you know, because Jerry's lived it all. He can tell you about how unpopular strength and conditioning was when it came to professional baseball.

You know, as he said, I can remember when I had my first ray gun. You know, I was like, oh, that's stupid. You don't need that. And, you know, so I end up I spend about 10 years being Jerry's assistant. He leaves, he goes to the Dodgers to be their farm director. I became the head coach. So all in all, I spent about 25 years at Sacramento City College coaching and teaching. I taught leadership classes in

the business department. I taught mental skills in the PE department. I was coaching the team. I would go out I coached in Cape Allen Jager, got me my first job coaching the pitchers in the Cape Cod League because he had a connection with John Schiffner. Went up to Alaska and managed and then got into like a five-year run in the Northwoods League managing. So every summer I was going out and I was trying to do something. Well with the Mariners it became more of a front office job. Yeah well it shifted because I went to Dan O'Dowd, I coached Dan's son Chris.

And Dan hired me to kind of start the mental skills program with the Rockies which I when I did that for for three years I loved it just that was my passion was helping players with the mental aspects of the game and that led to the Mariners where it was the, originally it was the farm director, which I did I think for seven years, six or seven years. Then there was a quick transition, I was going to coach on the big league staff and that got altered around. What did you learn that year? Well it never actually happened. Long story short, I was going to coach in the big leagues with Scott and the group. And then our new farm director had to resign right before spring training. So we needed to cover it.

And then that kind of led to the AGM, which led to the vice president. And I think I did it in two minutes. It was close. It was quick. You covered a ton of ground. I think about the mental skills aspect of your role. And we were just talking to Pat Murphy. And the challenge, I think, is-

Phenomenal college coach, and now a manager of the year. We were talking to him about helping players cope with failure for the first time. It happens at all different levels, right? Baseball becomes very hard at a different level for every player. How do you adjust that? I feel like it's harder to correct something

the further up you get, right? If you struggle for the first time as a big leaguer, it might be harder to break those habits or to learn healthy habits than it is if you hit that wall for the first time down at A-ball. Well, if you go back, if you just look at rosters in general, look at how many players have come through the minor leagues, got to the big leagues and stuck immediately.

It's a very small number. Yeah. Almost everybody, I mean, the best prospect in baseball year this year in Baltimore. How did they go through? It's really, really hard. If you go on our team, Calralli went back down,

Mitch Hanegger went back down, JP Crawford went back down. It's rare that they come up and stick. And so you're exactly right, that failure's gonna hit at some point, but it's dealing with the failure, it's dealing with success. And honestly, I think it's getting worse now because of tech and because of the data, which I'm a huge proponent of but

there's still human beings behind every whatever great role you have on it it's a human being that you're putting a 55 on you know it all starts with humans and humans are flawed humans are are very emotional, humans have feelings, and you know, Juan Soto, very wealthy today, is still a human being behind that who has insecurities, who has fears that are going to play out on the brightest stage in the world.

But how do you foster a sense of security in a sort of... In? Yes, they know they're being graded at every moment, they know that everything they do, every time they fart on the field, it's tracked, it's locked, it's categorized. So it's fun. Dan Wilson and I were having this conversation, he talked about playing in the Kingdom when they went to a new television deal, and all the games were going to be televised in Seattle. And you remember how heavy that was, because it had never happened before.

You know, you'd have your 20 regional home games or whatever. And I said, yeah, Dan, now it's that times 1,000. Every single thing these players are doing is tracked, it's catalogued, they're evaluated on it, it's stored forever, they can't hide from it, and not a human being in the world would prefer to work that way. You wouldn't want to, I wouldn't want to, and so you have to remember what the human being is being asked to exist in. Look at the career length of a major league career, You know how hard it is to get

there, how hard it is to stay there, and every piece of their life like you said you know is being tracked and cataloged. If you don't think that's creating stress and anxiety for the person that's then playing out on the field you're just you're closing your eyes to the obvious. What traits are you looking for in the coaches and instructors you're hiring throughout your organization to be sure that they will fit that way, to account for these important mental aspects of the game? Because this is a relatively new area of the game

as far as teams and organizations caring about it. But what's the best way to find people who are on board with this? Yeah, it's hard because that's just one component of it. You want the person that can understand that this catcher might be better being on one knee, as I know he was talking about earlier. You want somebody who can understand. If we rotate the seams in this picture's to seam based on what the guys upstairs discovered, now we have to bring that into the fold.

Subject matter, knowledge. It's all there, but it's really hard to find impactful instructors because the job is that hard. And then you have to do it with people who are now living in the environment that we just explained of stress, but if you could kind of whittle it down, empathy. My ability to sit in your shoes and try to view the world from your lens. That's hard to do. Yeah. Okay.

For all of us. So empathy is a big one. Can I help you solve your problems? Okay. Which in our arenas make you better. For some people it's can I get you to stick in the league for a year and survive. For somebody else it might be getting through arbitration. For somebody else it's free agency.

It's winning. It's all kinds of things. For Logan Gilbert, it's mastery. He just wants to see how good I can be at this thing. But can you sit in my shoes and view the world through my eyes? Can you help me solve my problems? Do you have a spine to say no? You put those three things together, you've got something.

And those people are hard to find. And if you get a bunch of them together, they get more expensive, and other teams start taking them from you. And like at Texas A&M or whatever. Yes. But that's a great example. It's something that we're, you know, we hired Max at the time.

Max was the youngest pitching coordinator in baseball. Yeah. And we poured into him just like we poured into our players. And it worked out great for us. He made us absolutely better in the pitching department. Now he's gone on to the college ranks where not only, you say he's being paid well, but he's making a huge difference for Texas A&M last year and now the University of Texas.

For a bunch of kids. And a bunch of kids. That empathy is probably a big part of it, that he was always a great communicator, always a great person in terms of caring for the kids. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, maybe to his detriment sometimes, because all he wanted to do was talk to the players and get in there. And that's all, that's the job. It's always about the players, And that's all that's the job.

It's the player, it's always about the players no matter what. Their careers are so short, they're so hard and your obligation is to pour into them and give them everything you have. Well I really appreciate your time. I think it's a really important message. If that's a sort of enduring message to some of the people that are coming here looking for jobs is to you know, you can even have empathy for the if that's a sort of enduring message to some of the people that are coming here looking for jobs is to, you know, you can even have empathy for the person

that's interviewing you because you have to figure out sort of how, what they want and how you can help them. Well what's happened in the industry, and it's happened fairly quickly, but because of the skills that are needed, you're finding them in a lot younger people. Right? Well, I don't know about you, there's not a lot of young people walking around with a ton of empathy for the world. That's something you kind of

develop over time. And so finding that combination of that old-school, a lot of those soft skills that you acquire over years in the game and combining them with the new skills that are out over years in the game and combining them with The new skills that are out there, but what's what's what's also changed is when I started coaching there was no internet There was no cell phone information was impossible to get to Nobody was writing coaching books because they didn't sell the market was so small You can now Find everything you need to find

You can now find everything you need to find on your phone. Right. All of the information is there because the really smart people are putting it out there. And so what used to be gathering information is now disseminating and simplifying and dot connecting information. It's changed dramatically that way. Well, thanks so much, man.

Thanks for having us on. Always a pleasure. And thanks for meeting you. See you around the winter meetings. That is going to do it for this episode of Rates and Barrels. We are going to chase down some Texas barbecue, which I think may prompt a flurry of Monday night activity. If I've learned anything from coming to the winter meetings

over the years, it is when you go to dinner. You look away from your phone for 10 minutes. That is when everything starts to happen. Be sure to keep tabs on everything happening at the winter meetings in Dallas with the Athletics Winter Meetings live blog. Thanks again to our guests Jason Stark, Pat Murphy, and Andy McKay. We are back with you on Tuesday. Thanks for listening.