Rates & Barrels - Getting to Know Trevor May, Making Sense of Spring News & A Deep Dive Into Four-Seam Fastballs

Episode Date: February 16, 2024

Trevor May makes his Rates & Barrels hosting debut, joining Eno and DVR to discuss missteps with the new MLB uniforms, wearing other people's pants, unusual self-designed training regiments, and the difficultly of processing news when the flood of information happens at the outset of spring training. Plus, Eno & Trevor do a deep dive into four-seam fastballs, before a round of listener Q&A. Rundown 0:56 Getting to Know Trevor 10:45 Making Sense of Spring Training News Updates 19:48 Four-Seam Fastball Deep Dive 51:54 Listener Q&A Follow Trevor on Twitter: @IamTrevorMay Follow Eno on Twitter: @enosarris Follow DVR on Twitter: @DerekVanRiper e-mail: [e-mail] Join us on Fridays at 1p ET/10a PT for our new livestream episodes! (https://www.youtube.com/c/ratesbarrels) Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/B3Ymqwrd Subscribe to The Athletic for just $2/month for the first year: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Welcome to Rates and Barrels. It is Friday, February 16th, and it is a live one. Derek Van Ryper, Eno Saris, and our newest addition to the Rates and Barrels crew, Trevor May is here for the first time. Trevor, welcome to Rates and Barrels. Thanks for having me on, guys. I'm very excited having me on. I guess I'm going to be here quite a few times. So, I'm really,

really pumped for this, and thanks for inviting me. Every Friday, if you're not watching us live today, 1 o'clock Easter, we go live on our YouTube channel. It's an amazing transition, right? 450 innings in the big leagues, 520 Ks, 21 saves that many of our listeners are very grateful for as a heavy fantasy baseball podcast. And now you're here. And I started to think about this. We've had this debacle unfolding over the last couple of days since pitchers and catchers

have reported to spring training. The uniforms have been an absolute mess. And I know sometimes uniform hijinks happens at some point along the way. If not in the big leagues, maybe on the way to the big leagues. This is an all-timer though. Steven Nesbitt from The Athletic had a story about this. And he had a quote from Carlos Estevez. It said, when I wear my pants, I feel like I'm wearing someone else's pants, which just seems like a miserable way to have to try and pitch. It seems like any sort of physical discomfort when you're out there trying to do that job seems incredibly difficult.

So I have to ask you, have you ever had to wear someone else's pants during a game? I have. I actually did a few times with the Mets in 2022 when I wore the pants up. I didn't have pants up. So they had to go to the back and find me. I was like, I want some shorties or some tweeners or the bucks is what I would call them. And they go back and they found a pair that a minor league guy had in spring training. They're like, try these on.

And they were huge. But I was like, sure. And it was fine. I chose them. They weren't tailored for me. And there's a time in spring where Majestic is coming now. I believe Nike, right? Yeah.

And they come in and say, hey, do you need adjustments to your pants? And then you kind of go over them. And then they get you a little bit of a change to your to your styles. Guys want to go different or their bodies change or whatever. And usually that takes care of it. But yeah, I it's weird. I'm seeing a lot of stories like this, too. Like guys are like, what happened?

Like, what is going on? Why? Why are all these wrong? Like, why don't our our pants? And it is the worst because it's something you're in. Like they need to fit like a like a glove. Like you they got to feel like pajamas almost like the most comfortable things's something you're in. They need to fit like a glove. They got to feel like pajamas almost, like the most comfortable things ever because you're in them all day, every day. So, yeah, that's not a good way you want to start your spring by your uniform not fitting.

Imagine Robbie Ray in some baggy pants, dude. He does need to cinch right into that. Or God forbid, be tighter you know oh my god could it get possible you call those spray-ons uh they come in a can you spray them on you know just from an aesthetic standpoint i think they look pretty terrible like the weird the lettering is is look at that i mean it's just it's tiny lettering bad you know difference is that the side by side from last year and this year yeah the kirby and gilbert is side by side yeah wow look at a bunch they are on the right too oh the numbers are smaller the trim's different the name

plates on the back are smaller and then of course there's all the fabric stuff they're talking about yeah that mariners image comes from the Bobby Mullins. Then I think it's Jeff Jones with the Miles Michaelis jersey, if you're looking at those visuals. The Cardinals jerseys are kind of boring anyway, but to make them look worse is actually an amazing achievement. That looks like a jersey, dude. They look like they're

ironed on. Look how crooked the nine is. Michaelis is. The nine is crooked, too. That's Fanatics quality right there just in time i think that's confirmation i was still on the fence now i'm now i'm certain yeah shades shades of uh what was it great britain oh yeah during the wbc they had like their letters were falling off who was that photo of is worley worley's jersey where he's just losing. He missed like two letters in Great Britain. I felt so bad for them.

That was like, you know, the thing that's different about that is like WBC is like you have only as much money as like your country will give you for the WBC. Like it's, they don't have great funding. So just, I actually felt bad for Great Britain because I was like, oh man, you got like kind of a small program. Like, yeah, okay. Like I could see how this happened, but you know, all of the MLB like spring training, it's not a small program that, that should be, you should dedicate your best resources to it. So to, to look like the same as Great Britain's ironed on jerseys is, is, is a fail really. Yeah. Not a, not a W for sure.

It's not what you're looking for. The other thing that had me kind of thinking from the perspective of someone who's played in the big leagues, what is the worst training idea you've ever acted on? Something you thought was going to help you. Because I saw a story today. Nolan Shanuel decided to stand up all day long, a week throughout the entire offseason this was his idea the angels didn't tell him to do it this was his way to make his legs stronger in a very

literal sense Sam Blum wrote that one for the athletic did you ever try anything like that you're like this might work um not not like that that so I pride my ability or my pride myself in my ability to like uh like have a

reason to back up the thing i'm doing like so i honestly i wanted to come in i saw this in the rundown coming in back now everything i did worked perfectly uh standing to make your legs strong like i get the i don't stand up enough i don't want to be sedentary you know i need to you know get my feet like i literally just saw a video from mitch hanniker about his like work on making his feet stronger and gripping the ground and grounding and adovino does stuff like that and so i was like that's good stuff but like it sounds like nolan was that's what he's looking for and he's just not quite there yet the worst thing i ever did was uh probably in that. And I think I was going to run in the barefoot shoes. And I just did it.

And let me tell you, that is not something you just do. You just have to ride your way up into that, right? Yeah. Your feet are sore in a way that you did not know that was possible. There's things moving that haven't moved in your life. And yeah, I was like, I'm going to run 10 poles basically barefoot. I'm just going to run 10 miles on the beach.

No, you're not. You're not going to do that. Then you're not going to do it for a month because you're going to be sore for that long. That was one, but I had to adjust it quickly. Just watch Daniel hit 30 homers or something and then everyone is going to have scanning tests next year

it's a copycat league there's a real backlash against some things that I think have value but do look strange, I can think of certain Twitter accounts that take some of the hitting training methods to account

you can hit on a board that moves and it's to take hitting some of the hitting training methods to account like there's a you can hit on like a board that moves and it's it's it's to like keep you to help you be stable but it looks really funny when you're watching someone do it it doesn't really look like hitting so like what's the what's the weirdest training thing you do that like has legitimate reason but doesn't look like pitching at all uh you know is there anything you can think of is it like the shoulder tube like the one of the things that's kind of iconic for pitching is is like this thing that you hold that you kind of you you're just sitting there like kind of making this this this board kind of go up and down you know the the shoulder tube do you do anything like that the

body blade yeah so the body blade body blade it's it looks like a like a it's like a long piece of like flexible i think it's like a long piece of like flexible i think it's metal wrapped in plastic but like you're trying to get it to wobble up and down kind of like a sheet wobbling up and down it's supposed to stabilize your shoulder which they're those are actually really good and the science supports that because there's science there it just doesn't look like pitching yeah it doesn't look like pitching but then you go through motions and you like you you also can like put your finger pressure in to get it to like you can turn it sideways and like feel that like so if you're working on forearm stuff so there's a bunch of stuff you can do uh there's something i had when i was a kid uh called

a dynaflex uh a gyro ball that you spin and then it like spins in your hand like this and then you go the other way you try to build forearm strength i remember that yeah but there's it's the same thing same kind of premise is you can go out and you can like do the same type of movements you do with the body blade. And I hadn't seen one like there. Nobody had them because they're kind of like, not that they don't work. They're just kind of older school technology.

And of course I walk into the A's clubhouse and there's two of them. And I used it all year. And they're portable. They're way more portable than the blade. Right. You know, you can just throw them in the bag. Kind of passive.

You can just sit in your locker just for a minute each way and you get your arm warmed up. It feels kind of nice. I liked it. I like to think that that's what made me throw hard as a kid. I still have that connection. I'm like, maybe I'll throw harder. I don't know.

The Body Blade sounds more like capital S science. What Nolan Chanuel had, that was just throw harder. I don't know. The body blade sounds more like capital S science. What Nolan Chanuel had, that was just an idea. It was an idea. What if I... There's got to be a million stories from around the game of people just trying all sorts of crazy things. We were talking about sticky stuff a few years ago. The homemade concoctions that pitchers were trying to cook up.

Trying to find something else to get grip, never-ending possibilities. Hitters have the best stuff, by the way. Not for that. The hitters. Like, Noda had the strap on the head and the ball. Did you ever see him doing that, you know, when you were in there? Because he did it right before BP. And he'd, like, hit out, and he'd literally do, like, the boxing, like,

short punches and just keep the ball. Like, literally, one of the ping-pong paddle things with the ball, but on his forehead. And he'd just punch things and try to and just keep the ball like a literally one of the ping pong paddle things with the ball but on his forehead and he just punched things and try to keep tracking the ball uh now we're did some stuff too with like uh like you know the the peripheral vision like lights and pressing them trying to oh yeah yeah yeah touching stuff too so that was part of it but like there's a lot of like that kind of stuff that hitters do to like track balls and it's it's pretty funny to watch when you don't know what they're doing ping pong ball on the hat on the hat he's got a ping pong ball like he's trying to punch a ping pong ball it's one of those red rubber balls and he's just punching it and it's going back out and the other guys try it no one can touch it and he's just like

because he does it so much well no that might have the best eye on the team he does exactly i'm like maybe everyone should do this and get you one of those. So this time of year is incredible because there's so much information that comes out. Beat reporters have, I think, a really hard job this time of year. It's a flood of information. They're trying to make sense of it. Only a percentage of it's even true, the stuff they're told, that is. And then we, on the outside, are like, what's really going on? So an example, Justin Verlander, he said Wednesday, he's a couple weeks behind schedule because his right shoulder didn't bounce back the way he'd hoped during his offseason throwing program. That could mean anything. What are we supposed to do with information like this that just keeps coming out day after day throughout camp. Now that everything started up. Well, this is, this is always a very interesting thing. Cause here's the deal. Off season guys,

everyone treats their off season a little differently. Like some guys are super connected with the team still. Like they even stay in the spring training place. They're working out of the stadium. They're with the trainers all the time. And that's the best situation for them. But a lot of guys like go home and they're, they're, you know, their families from a place that isn't there,

and the resources they have are limited too. And so things get a little bit like if you're feeling something and you have time because it's still the offseason, you tend to kind of wait and see. It's like take a break, see if it's just something small, and then go from there. Because the real sense of urgency doesn't start until your spring training, whether you try to get it to or not. It just isn't the same thing unless you're there. And so that's what happens a lot. And we mentioned

the Bradish thing and the means thing. There's a bunch of stuff coming out all over the place, even treatment happening we didn't hear about. Because they're they're like maybe this isn't a thing until we have to tell people we're not going to and so that's why it all happens right now and for like justin you know he's 40 like he was there's one he doesn't know every year now he's like let's see how like let's see what's going to happen here in the aussies max shares are very similar they're both like let's see But they've also been around so long enough that they know a lot about themselves. So sometimes they have a hunch,

and then they're the ones that are going to make the decision at the end of the day anyways. Like, no training staff is going to tell them, you know, what's happening. It's just where they're at in their careers. Hall of Famers, that's just what's going to happen. What they say goes. So some guys like that can handle their own thing, and then he comes in, he's like,

hey, I thought it would bounce back. It didn't. We'll just manage it. We'll take it one step at a time. This just happens. And then there's younger guys who are maybe afraid to say something because, you know, maybe they're on the cusp or maybe they want to make a team and they're hoping it goes away.

And unfortunately, that doesn't happen all the time. All of these things happen, but they're all happening at the same time. And the guys are having these different reactions that kind of come out in the same new cycle. And it's, it's, you know, I've had this happen. I had this happen with my back and 16 coming back in 17,

where I was like, I need to, this needs to be fixed because I can't have that year again. And then that's when I got Tommy John, because I don't think I threw as much long toss. I needed to cause another problem. But I, I do remember being like,

no, I'm good. I'm good. When I'm still kind of worried about it. Like, it's not quite where I want it to be. But, uh, and then you go to spring when'm good when I'm still kind of worried about it. Like it's not quite where I want it to be. But, uh,

and then you go to spring when you're ramping up truly and the urgency is there. And that's when you really know if it's a hurt or a, you know, thing you can work through. You just don't know until you're doing the daily grind of the game. And that unfortunately happens when spring training starts.

You know, it was surprising to me when John means said he was a month behind. Um, just because I wasn't sure what that meant. Like, I know he's a starter and you relieved most of your career, but like, what does that mean to be a month behind? Like, what would you have been doing over the last month to get to this point? You know, like how if opening day is 100 percent, what isary 16th and what is january 16th like what's that month you know what percentages are you trying to get to yeah that's it's interesting because starters and relievers wildly different like i could yeah i could throw four bullpens and go to spring and

then i'll have enough time because of the way like the level of endurance i need to have when the season starts uh that's a luxury in a lot of ways so it's easier to say you're a month behind when you're a starter because we think in the you think in terms of like six like outing chunks or six bullpen chunks so basically what he's saying is i threw six less i'm'm six behind. Like I'm six in my progression. I'm six levels behind of where I would like to be going into a regular season. And with the whole thing with the, with surgery and all that kind of stuff,

like they're just naturally going to be slow because he didn't throw very much. So it's, did he even throw at the end of the last year? He did just a couple, I think. So he doesn't have a lot of innings. So they're still going to be tentative with him and so and when it's a starter like a month is kind of just the

like a one unit of time kind of when you're ramping so it's just an easy round number to use but yeah he's probably like he's like I can only get stretched out if I go now I could probably get stretched out to three innings or you know what I mean? By opening day. That's not enough to start the season on the team, which it's not. That's kind of the benchmark, I think, for him. That would be your guess. If he's a month behind, it's going to be hard to be there on opening day. Exactly.

I guess for them, the process, you're talking about a bullpen. If you're talking about six bullpens, you can do that in two weeks? Yeah. The process, you're talking about a bullpen. If you're talking about six bullpens, you can do that in two weeks? Yeah, like a reliever could do it in two weeks because I can throw like a 15 pitch, a 20 pitch, a 25 pitch, a 30 pitch, and then like two 30 pitches, and now I'm put me in a game. And then you have to just port that over with more rest for a starter and more pitches. So they're going to go 20 or 30 a couple times, try to get to 50.

They have to get to 80 or 100. They have to at least get to 75, 80 before the regular season starts. That is minimum. More rest between their bullpens. Exactly. Especially with his injury. At that end, too.

It's even slower if you're being safe. It's not just injury information that comes out this time of year. You get a lot of the best shape of their life stories. Manoa looks good. Those are fun. Manoa looks really good. Manoa looks good. He does. It's Instagram friendly. And then you get guys like, there was a story from Martin Gallegos covers the A's for MLB.com. Mason Miller lighting up the radar gun in his first bullpen session at HoHocam. And I'm thinking like, I don't necessarily want Mason Miller lighting up the radar gun in February. I want him to be healthy on opening day.

And that's clearly the biggest priority for the organization. But there's just some guys that can't dial it back. They're just always 100% sitting close to that max. And that's just the way their bodies work. Yeah. Yeah, he's definitely one of those seeing that in person he doesn't look like i mean he looks like he's putting something on it like in games like that that is that's not what you see in bullpens but like nice and easy is the same thing you know it's maybe minus three miles an hour and i've i've played with a lot of those guys it just they're not they don't care how hard they're throwing in the bullpen and they're still throwing harder than you like and it's just the way it's the mechanically they figure something out and um the way that they deploy strength and

like flexibility is like their mechanics like it's part of their mechanics they like have to do it at that level or the mechanics don't work and so so like DeGrom, we mentioned, we were talking before the show, he's a guy who he just figured it out perfectly. He's so athletic that like being athletic is something he has to do to throw the ball. And if when he's athletic, he throws really hard. That's just like the way it is. He's a freak. But again, there's the other side of that coin where, you know,

the body can only just do that so many times like it's just not uh built to throw a baseball overhand it's it's just isn't so um yeah i i don't especially with mason i really don't think this is a hey guys look at me like because you know we get it you throw you throw 102 like everyone knows he knows you know like it's so it's not it's not a showing off thing that he's just trying to be ready but he's just trying to be ready he's just trying to be like hey look i'm healthy and yeah but yeah it's did you ever six weeks we need to be healthy what was your uh was he ever your catch partner i never played catch with him i was uh my catch partner was austin pruitt my recommendation for anyone playing with aust Austin Pruitt is try to get

him. That guy hits you in the center of the chest every throw. He's the best catch partner I ever had. Sorry to everybody else, but wow. It made me feel good. It felt like we were getting something accomplished. But no, I never played

catch with him, and I felt bad for the guys that did. Him and Louis Medina. Woof. Tough. Just because they throw so hard and they're just electric and they don't know how to throw soft. And Medina does not

always know where it's going. There's one against the wall every time. That's Danny Jimenez's partner. Good luck. That's Danny Jimenez's partner. Good luck. That's incredible. The other thing I wanted to kind of bring up today was the general idea. On this show, what we're going to do is we're going to start deep diving into each pitch, all the different pitches that could be in an arsenal because you've thrown them.

You've seen other people throw them up close. Eno studies it in depth, and we think there's a way to really inform and educate everybody like what makes pitches effective. Why are some pitches good when you watch them on TV, but they're actually actually very hittable, right? There's all sorts of different combinations that can play out as you sort of look at arsenals. And we're going to start with the basics. We're going to start with the four-seamer. And it's pretty wild because we've got a couple examples. So we're going to start with one that I think anybody watching the show can look at and say, this is a good four-seamer. This is a Felix

Bautista four-seam fastball. 101, top of the strike zone. Right? Everything you could possibly want in a four-seamer. And for me, the thing that I think is a little bit misleading is it's not just the velo. There's more to that fastball than the triple digits. That's the thing that the average person is going to look at and say, yep, excellent fastball, 101. So I am curious, why is Felix Bautista's fastball even better than that radar gun reading is going to

tell us you know you want to you want to start with this one because I I have some stuff that I think I want to add to your stuff okay well you know it's the thing that fascinates me about this and one of the reasons why I created stuff plus is that I don't think it's always obvious to the human eye. Now, hitters will say, yeah, I can tell that pitch has ride, and ride is just the concept of the ball, because of its spin, doesn't drop as much as you'd expect. You can see it in a beach ball. If you throw a beach ball with this right spin, it'll go up. It'll actually go up. But because a baseball is thicker and harder and smaller and heavier, it won't go up like a beach ball, but that's the same effect. It's countering gravity and it shows up at in the ballpark anywhere other than right behind home

plate in the scout seats i think it's really hard to see i think even in the scout seats i've sat in the scout seats and i'm not always sure if that pitch had good ride or if it was just straight and so that was that was why i one of the reasons why i created stuff plus and if you got here this is a stuff plus interaction um chart here, this is a Stuff Plus interaction chart. And so this is maybe a lot, but really just focus on the red. So what you have on the y-axis is vertical movement, and what you have on the bottom is velocity. In the black, that's Felix Bautista. The red ones, that's good. So if you look at it, you can see, oh, Velo is good. Yes, we knew that. Throwing 100, it doesn't almost matter what your vert is if you throw 100.

So if you're worried about Paul Skeens, you know, throwing 100, 102, like it won't matter if he throws that hard. But you can see how that red kind of just goes backwards. You know, vert is always good, you know, and it always makes you a little bit better than the people who don't have vert. And that's why we've been chasing vertical movement for so long as a sport. And that's why Felix Bautista's pitch

is not only good from Velo, as you can see, 99 on average, but also best vert in the league. And he's in that nice red where you want to be, not in the blue, which is, you know, the average fastball is in the blue that's what every player sees that's the average fastball they're used to that they're trained for that you know they're not trained for felix batista exactly yeah it's it's all so yeah when you're searching for vert especially if you're forcing guy seam guy, that is the vert is the premium. Like it's a benchmark.

Um, do you have the ability to throw above average vertical break? And then the other factors kind of pile on and then you can find kind of outliers that way, which we have a couple of examples of that here in a moment too. Um, the, the interesting for me is,

and the thing for me is, yeah, Felix Bautista is, you know, the perfect example because he has the IVB. And by the way, I realized that we had talked about this term and I want to quickly pop it out there because I think that I'm going to be using it quite a few times on the show. And maybe I can give it just a quick definition. But that blue area is commonly known in baseball as a dead zone fastball, somewhere between, somewhere that is closer to what a hitter would expect and is closer to the average. So if

you throw a sinker, you want to be below that dead zone. If you want to throw a foreseam, you want to be above that dead zone in terms of vertical movement. That is usually the word everyone uses or the phrase. And then if you are in that dead zone, then you then velo is the way that you try to make up for that, which you know, mentioned earlier, that doesn't matter as much when you throw really hard. A prime example of this of a guy like this

is Fuji with the Mets now. So he is a prime example of a guy with of not great vertical movement but he throws so hard that he can get away with it in certain places pretty much every time um but one thing that's really interesting about felix batista is the way that he throws so there is the way the ball moves and then there's perception of how it's going to move that if you can

change that perception a little bit that is a deadly combo. So he also has the splitter which is a whole another can of worms which we could talk about for I'm sure an entire hour how that pairs with this fastball, but he's tall. So what is he six eight?

So he's very tall and he's over the top, right? And he throws straight over the top. That's another common term for you. An iron mic, an old pitching machine that used to just catapult the ball at you. Those are called iron mics. So guys who throw directly over the top, 12 o'clock, we call them iron mics. And usually they have great backspin, which

produces a pretty good ride. So he's one of those. So he throws from literally above everyone in the league's head, including Aaron Judge, every single hitter like it's coming down um so when you get this downward angle kind of perception you think you have this you have this based on how he throws you think you're going to see some sort of downward trajectory and then he has the highest ride so then that doesn't happen so So it compounds that effect. Even how he throws makes it look like gravity is going to affect it even more.

And it does the exact opposite. Now the barrel is moving even farther from the ball. So not only are people missing it, they're missing it by a lot. And then you add the splitter. It goes the opposite way underneath where that barrel is. So I bet if this were even measurable, I don't even know if he can. It'd be really interesting. it goes the opposite way underneath that that where that barrel is so he his i bet you hit like if this were even measurable i don't even know if you can it'd be really interesting but like the average distance the bat misses the ball by that was such a great thing you just said like i feel

like i feel like you could do that in a front office but maybe not in public maybe it's maybe the cameras don't have a high enough frame rate yet on hawkeye i don't know i've been told they don't uh so that is probably it the technology is quite not there yet but i bet you he has some of the worst swing and misses at least on fastball splitter in the league as well so um yeah like you expect something based on how he's coming at you and he's big and intimidating already and then he throws 100 and then it doesn't move the way you think it's gonna move that makes that you know that that's a guy who doesn't give up any runs ever that's pretty much why he's so good but he's basically checks all the boxes the guys who are interesting are the guys

that uh check some of the boxes and have a very interesting uh reaction because of that well there's also you know there's also uh you know as more and more ride is in the league, more, you know, batters are a little bit more in tune to that idea that, OK, here's an iron Mike. He's going to have ride. So there's in a way it's expected now in a pro hitter, a pro hitter is going to stand in against Felix, see him throwing over the top like that and expect ride. So he's just he's he doesn't care that you expect it. He's just going to be so good at it. he's obviously like the best in the league at it so he's like i know you expect it but good luck anyway whereas you know there are other people you know uh where you know we have here this is the best ride in baseball and you can see this vertical movement category um that has 20.5 for felix

bautista that's the type of language and this is from alex chamberlain's um you know uh uh pitcher what's it called his uh pitcher pitch specs um i forget what he calls a pitch leaderboard so look look up alex chamberlain he's this is the reason i want to put this up is this is the language that the players speak 20 vert is that's 20 ivb and that's an imputed vertical break like that is what uh induced vertical break that's what people think of when they think of elite they that's the language they speak they speak 20s so felix batista has those 20s that people are chasing um but you can also see on this that it doesn't just getting to 20 doesn't mean you're amazing you know trevor richards is not you know wouldn't come up as one of the best pitchers in the league if you've made a list colin posh say you know jose or

on this list so there's other things that come into factor you know if you are throwing super over the top like nick pivetta you need to get to those 20s to make it work um because people kind of this is expected movement so uh there's a little difference nestor cortez is on this list and he's got a 5.9 uh foot vertical uh release point versus felix matus is seven foot so. So when you step in the box against Nestor Cortez, you think, hmm, I don't know, this doesn't look like an Iron Mike. And then the pitch comes at you like an Iron Mike's. So there's this disconnect between what you expect and what you were given.

We have another video here really quickly of Jose Arquides' fastball. This is on the list of the top five in vertical break. I don't know. That looks like easy peasy. 92, you know, straight as a bean. And it does get hit. And I think part of that is he releases it like a foot shorter than Felix Batista. So batters get to see it for a foot longer.

His release point is not as extreme. And there's something about it that's more expected. So there is a relationship between what you do and what people expect you to do, given your arm slot. Yes, Jose is a prime example of a guy who is closer to what you expect, and there there's not a lot of of perception change there and then there's and also not high velo either like that was you know 92 uh you know that's like blow average now um and minus 92 minus given the fact that he's releasing it for a short arm so yeah and it's it's slowing down a lot more by you know air resistance all stuff it's actually going slower than another person that has a longer extension throwing 92 it might be going a little bit faster they're

actually technically throwing harder that's all we're not gonna go there but yeah that's a whole thing um wait did you have good extension uh yes i had very good extension uh i think my lowest was 94th percentile in a year so uh me and Edwin Diaz are the same, pretty much. And so you, I was just interested in this too. Like you, you're training. You're a pitcher. You're training. You want vert.

You want extension. Are any of those innate and like good luck trying to get it? Like you had extension. Did you, as a kid, want that? Or is it just you, did you jump? Are you like a jumper? You know, like, did you kind of jump off the mound? Drop and drive.

Tom Seaver, Nolan Ryan. And that was like from as a kid? Or it was like coming up, they were like, we want more extension out of you. Like, do this. As a kid, that's how I perceived, that's how you threw hard. Like, I learned, like, oh, you just got gotta push off as hard as you can and then throw as hard as you can like that's how i perceived it like todd i was um tom house had a had an extension kind of you know fat he likes the towel drill too right yeah yeah tower drill too you want to reach

out you want to snap it against the glove my dad would move farther out we weren't really thinking about it as extension it just worked that way in terms of like follow through or release or getting the ball out um that was very common like in the early aughts when i was learning or late 90s so uh you know we checked the the three ring binder uh for the tom house articles blogs and found the ping and then we practiced that's how i learned um so i was very much like that but i don't think it's entirely necessary but that is the benefit like if you do have a lot ride the funny thing about if you have ride and then you can get long extension the interesting thing is um then the perception of

the ball is that it's going to go higher than it is so you can get lots of called strikes at the top of the zone and um but if you change heights so one thing for me i'm six foot five i'm a big dude and i stand up tall so i stand up tall and i come set do you see tall big guy like i look like felix batista at this point and then i come come up they're like okay still nothing to tell me he's not going to be an iron mike and then i get low when i get low and they're like okay now he's way lower than I thought was possible my relief point was like 5'6 so like my bird release was 5'6 and then I threw up in the zone and I had like 17

to 18 ride mostly which is good it's above average it's top 20% in the league but I could get so low so I was tall expectation changes again when I go down and then I throw ride again so then it's riding like a guy who like batista is tall so they're going he has ride no he doesn't yes he does like that that was my dynamic and that's happening subconsciously and there's a bunch of

guys that do that uh really really well and that actually explains why their ride works better than say jose or kitties uh because they have something that there's doubt placed at some point in the delivery subconsciously like that is my theory that is i'm gonna stand by this some point they change their mind and then change it back and it happens quick and it takes a while to get used to um and when you're facing a reliever you're facing once you're like well i don't have the time to figure this out so then you get back and you're like oh this is happening again and then it's over again you're like ah so it takes months to get to a reliever. Starter's a little bit different.

Starter you get to see three times in a game. Exactly. So that was interesting. And I know that worked for me really well, but it wasn't on purpose. It's very hard to teach, especially extension. Guys struggle to learn extension, especially as a pro. Yeah, I think you've been throwing so long by the time you're a pro. Like you're going to tell them, like like you want me to do what now like i've been throwing this way for 10 years it's legs so like you learn legs first

yeah so if you're trying to change how your legs work it's gonna affect everything so you have to break everything down it's like it's very hard to separate it it's not a separate it's almost like it only happens like post-surgery i feel like sometimes post-surgery people are like okay i'm gonna start all over you know i need 18 months to relearn how to pitch yeah that's definitely it how about chasing vert did you ever chase vert did you like i i think the only thing i've really heard of is like a clean fuego which is like is like a it's a ball that doesn't have the rest of the ball. It's like the middle of the ball without the sides. And the only way that you can really throw it right is by throwing it with backspin, like sort of true backspin.

It helps you with spin efficiency. Turn it more of your spin into vert. Did you ever do a clean flago? Did you ever do anything else to chase vert? Or was this, you thought like, this is the vert I've gotten. This is, I mean, you weren't able to really push it so um clean flagos are really interesting there's guys like uh here's a prime example of a guy that actually did a lot of work with the clean fuego um luke bard he was a you know spin rate darling like 3200 spin rate on his fastball

led to lead but he had what we call wobble like his ball just like changed its axis constantly and for whatever reason like arm path whatever they're trying to figure it out and then throwing clean fuego what you want to do is you hold it on a four seam and you throw it and it's got like it's like a flat ball so it's flat on the sides and it's round normally like a ball you're holding like a disc you're throwing it and you wanted to cut just slightly when you're playing catch um and be true so if it's spinning true back it goes just cuts a little bit like towards your glove side and so but you can also see like you see the wobble or not right yeah so if it's wobbling it's going whoa and it won't cut like it's very obvious it makes it very very obvious guys used to do this with like they draw on the ball and they try to get on the ball too and they couldn't

get the line but then there was no there was no like physical it wasn't so obvious so it's really hard to see so this was developed i picked up a fuego i threw it and it just perfectly cut every time so i was like this is not gonna help me this is naturally so this is guys who are like don't have a lot or they're in the dead zone they're just trying to get slightly above it they're trying to add some efficiency and i already kind of naturally had that so what actually helped me develop like make sure my ride was consistent and that i was getting it regularly was during my long toss so a lot of people talk like pull downs and all this like building arm strength the velo yes that all works but when i played long toss i could see ball trajectory really well hugely important huge and not only for arm strength but for what you're talking about

movement you can really because the movement you have so much longer for the movement to develop you can just see you can see it exactly you can physically see it you're like you can see now numbers that you saw on the track man you can see them uh you're starting to realize like what you're seeing and then what that translates in what does ride look like a long toss does it just sort of like float up and then fall down or something? Kind of, yeah. Or like, oh, what was the other day? There was a Japanese player who threw the ball home

and remember the guy catches it perfectly and it was like, whoa, like it went viral for a while. That ball had so much ride that it didn't die. So this keeps, it feels like it's just going to keep going if you're not there. I'd have guys catch low throws I throw. If I do a pull down when I'm coming in at 180 feet and they go low,

it's going to hit the ground and then it doesn't. They get a little bit locked up because they got caught by the right because low in the zone too. I could get guys frozen there because they're assuming it's going to be below the zone. They think it's going to go below. Exactly. Guys who catch it like that are like, dude, what was that? So it seems harder to so that's kind of like when I saw that Reaction that is when I was like, okay

I am spinning this thing and it's catching the way that I wanted to catch but if it I don't have it I start to Get this fade. I see my partner start to move over a lot and I'm on the side a little bit I'm getting this like weird Right. So you're turning too much of your spin into sideways movement whereas you want it to be kind of true and that's when i know i gotta like focus on it more and so you'll see on that leaderboard a lot of these guys have minus horizontal movement they're turning so much of their spin into into like if you look at the like look at colin pache's uh foreseeing. That has very little horizontal movement. Nick Pavetta's has very little.

What do you see when you see, like, it's more two-plane? Like, how is somebody getting on here for vert and also having, like, Bobby Miller? I don't know if you've ever seen Bobby Miller's foreseeing, but it has two-plane movement where, like, how do you do a two plane like what is going on you just have so much spin yeah i think it's spin related there's a lot of spin related there and the interesting thing really quickly a note about uh pache um lefties and righties so lefties will be positive horizontal if it's a running arm side a little bit and then lefties be negative so pache actually has cut like that's he's throwing cutters oh that's right yeah yeah i forgot to make that adjustment in my head yeah and also zero isn't perfect backspin either zero is kind of cut

yeah zero is like cut for both sides so like uh uh what is it right he's like five three negative five three is like a true with everything kind of factored in it's that's a true backspin four seam almost perfectly because and this is partially because i think no matter what pitch you throw you do pronate yeah you have to you you can't throw a ball without it yeah yeah your arm will pronate and pronating is if you're watching on youtube pronating is um uh movement like let me turn your hand outwards away from your body. At some point, you're turning your hand like this and where the ball is released in that turn dictates how it moves.

Yeah. And so since you do that, it's there's going to be some component of sideways spin, right? Like you can't throw a ball like this. Like you can't physically just take a ball and go like this and make everything you know perfectly you know that just like your body won't do that so yes and the sort of no matter what you're going to have a little bit of sideways movement and that's that's so zero is not true zero it's it's actually cutting a little bit and exactly yeah in Pache's case yeah uh the distinction between ibB leaderboards and vertical movement ranking on baseball savant is annoying as poop to me.

I wish that everyone had gotten together and said like, this is what we'll do. And it seems like baseball did one thing. And then all the sites that were publicly out there did something else. And it's really annoying. You can't port over 20 when you see when you hear people when you hear pitchers talking about vert or ibb you can't port that over to baseball savant the only way that i think that you can use baseball savant to play along is to actually use the relative movement so i would ignore the gross movement because I don't even really have a

great sense of what that means. But you can see if you look at Felix Bautista's page on Baseball Savant, you'll see a nice big red plus three or something. And that's basically saying his vertical movement is three inches better than league average. And that that's good enough. That's that's your best way to play long on Base savant exactly uh those numbers are also uh attached to people there's a certain range of vilos that that's attached to as well so like uh guys with that his vert it's like vert who it's vert amongst dudes who throw 99 you and which there are a lot which makes sense because if you throw if you throw uh, you have more time to move. So there's a relationship between time and distance and movement and spin and velo.

I do have a little rule of thumb, though. Because I used to look at Savant a lot before I was using 3Media or even other things. 20 is kind of the benchmark. That is what TrackMan talks in. That is what RepSoto talks in. But a quick, dirty kind of the benchmark that is what track man talks in uh that is what rapsodo talks in um but uh a quick dirty kind of conversion a guy that's like a 10 vert so that so basically vertical induced vertical movement is like uh uh the perception uh perception score it's got weights and stuff in it

and then uh the other one is kind of like a how much much is it dropping? That's savant. Savant is like, how much is it dropping? So a lower number is better. Yeah. Lower numbers do want to look at raw. I know. Lower numbers better. So if you got a guy in the nines, like on savant, he's, he's 20 plus every time. Uh, Strider's flirting with that.

Uh, I had one year in like 16. I think this was because the technology stuff, but I was like nine, was like crazy because i never got near that again uh another good one is liam hendrix go check his out he's got some of the best true backspin or has in the past uh as well in terms of that and again it ranks them so like you see a guy with a bright red number and it's like those numbers the numbers light up because of percentiles in the league similarly to when you took the the test when you were in elementary in the league. Similarly to when you took the, the test when you were in elementary school and they said what percentile you were in as opposed to getting it right.

That, that is what they go by. So like, like bright reds, like top 5%, a top five, fifth percentile in the league for that type of thing. And so if a guy's got a bunch of reds,

like on all of his pitches, his stuff's moving really good comparatively. I just go, how much red is there here? And then I go from there when I'm looking at a guy's got a bunch of reds, like on all of his pitches, his stuff's moving really good comparatively. I just go, how much red is there here? And then I go from there when I'm looking at a guy. And to be fair, Strider's a really interesting name that you brought up. To be fair to Savant, I think the reason they did it is their vertical movement number has some kind of adjustment, some sort of knowledge of the release point. adjustment, some sort of knowledge of the release point, you know? And I think that vert movement, like in terms of IVB,

it's certainly vert movement on Alex Chamberlain's thing. Like a 20 is a 20 and it doesn't really take into account your release point in the same way. So Strider having a nine, Strider does not show up here in invert move at the top and so you know that speaks a little bit to what we were talking about is the relationship between your release point what people expect strider is low you know he's doing what you were talking about doing and he totally did it on purpose and he did it post-surgery he said i want to have a low release point with as much ride as possible from high extension he was like he'ssurgery he said i want to have a low release point with as much ride as possible

from high extension he was like he's like that's what i want to do i want to have these three things because he's an analytical mind that like knew that from a stuff post-based research from what we looked at that that's going to be effective so coming out of tj he was like i'm gonna drop you know i'm gonna stand tall and then i'm gonna drop and then i'm gonna release way out in front and i'm gonna try to have ride on it and play around with people's perceptions of what's gonna happen so in some ways like baseball savant can be superior in sort of grouping how hitters perceive that exactly you know so strider having a nine there and having, I don't know, like a 17 vert over here, the nine on Baseball Savant tells the story better in a way. Yeah.

And another reason why I did Stuff Plus is because it kind of pulls all these things together. And I hate that it's a black box and it's doing this in all these different ways, looking at, oh, release point's important here, extension's important here, and trying to put it all together. But each of the metrics we have otherwise can kind of be, can come short somewhere. So like vert move has some shortcomings. IVB has some shortcomings. Baseball savants has some shortcomings. They each have their strength.

The reason why I like the 20 language, the IVB sort of vert move language, is just because it's so ubiquitous in baseball. It's the Rapsodo track man language. It's what I hear when I talk to players. You were talking about the difficulty of adding extension before. I was just looking at Mike Soroka's page again because he had a couple Achilles injuries, missed a lot of time. Is the saant extension data useful for people who want to play

along publicly? Because he actually increased extension a lot after a two-year gap, and I'm wondering how much that may have just been being down with an injury and having a chance to rebuild the mechanics a lot more. I bet it was. Yeah, it has a lot to do with that.

Again, I heard also and then this kind of, I didn't know about the extension increase, but it has a lot to do with that um and i you know he again i heard also and then this kind of i didn't know about the extension increase but he talked a lot about throwing more four seams this last year and so i'm like hmm like what who what other pitchers have you been just having long conversations with i bet you spencer schreider one was, shorter extension and heavy sinker. Like those things kind of tend to go together too. Um, because you're giving your,

you're giving the ball longer time to move as well. So it gets that heavier feel guys. Like they, what do they, they say it's like hitting a bowling ball. Um, or anyone who's tried to hit like a, like a,

like a heavy softball or something with like a metal bat. Like it's, it's like, it sucks or like something that's not supposed to be hit like a basketball. a metal bat like it's it's like it sucks or like something that's not supposed to be hit like a basketball right so like it's that it's like it's jarring and that's what you want and so going the other way is usually very hard because those two things are poor you need the extension and the sink uh to or you need the extension and the ride so like you have to learn two things to get that effect well and uh you know

he might not again he because he struggled a little bit with with getting away with those four seams and and there were there were growing pains where where he was getting hit a lot harder than he's ever been hit and that's part of what comes along with being a four seam like breaking ball guy is when you do get hit you give up harder contact because of the nature of the pitches you're not really you're relying on almost lack of movement than you are movement um and so getting giving up barrels is like homers are usually an issue strider that's his strider problem he grew up the same like he just only runs he ever gave up were homers so it's like you just got to be okay with that so that's an interesting uh he's a great example an interesting change uh but it's i'd love to see like what a

full year of like being healthy and fully working on it like if he continues to kind of be able to have both those things in his arsenal if that becomes a weapon as opposed to something he was still trying to learn really clear runway statistically i would say that like extension is pretty the same everywhere i think yeah there's only a question of you know where you measure things from but you know now that we have eyes on it basically hawkeye is a bit is like a isn't as a visual thing like it's just going to look at where you release the ball and measure it so yeah it's pretty expensive yeah yeah yeah if anyone's got questions feel free throw them in the chat we can answer a few uh this is the biggest question of the day why why stevie i wearing a collared shirt i'm not it's a long sleeve i just threw it on

because i'm cold i would never wear a collared shirt on the live stream i mean you know it's wisconsin midwest wisconsin is the answer it's just cold here perry excited about the addition of trevor on fridays we are too it's awesome trevor i've got a question for you yeah you threw a two seam along with your with your four same My impression is if you throw a pretty good Four scene with ride and you throw a two seam the idea is just to differentiate it sort of horizontally So it's more of a two seam rather than a sinker. Yeah, there's a lot of guys that call them sinkers or not Um, actually it's becoming very popular to throw

the high kind of heavy horizontal two-seam as a wrinkle. We're going to see a lot more of that this year, I think, especially like right on right, up and in. Because hitting that up and in spot is very, very hard to do consistently, and guys struggle with it. Like guys who throw straight four-seams,

like trusting that you're not just going to sail one into their armpit. Like that was the thing I struggled with, like really throwing strikes in there. But if you can do it, nobody up and in well for for juice consistently they have to be looking for it it's like a it's like a hole that pretty much every right hander will have well and then even the ones that don't have it like korea and bregman and like the high and tight hitters paredes uh some of those guys soler the guys that do that they want a four seam there yeah they want a four seam not they're looking for four seam high and that do that, they want a four seam there. Yeah. They want to force him.

Not looking for four seam high and tight. And if you give them a two seam high and tight, they're likely to foul it off or yeah, I think foul most likely, even if they're ready for it. And that's what they like, you know, because the movement is,

is not going to be right on their barrel. Exactly. So yeah, that, that wrinkle pitch will get, it's, it's becoming like a, like a variation thing.

So expect the Dodgers and the Rays and the Astros. Just expect that. You see a lot of it. Two or three kinds of hard pitches high. Yeah, especially relievers. Relievers are mixing them in once or twice and just being like, yeah, I have that. And you don't have to really be that fine.

You just aim up and then usually it just naturally goes over there. You can miss. It doesn't need to be a strike and it's just saying, hey, I have it. It's just getting more and more popular because the force seems, like you said, there's people guys are training to get on top of it, blocking that ball off. That's what they're calling it, blocking.

Getting the foot down and getting the barrel to the high pitch. Pitcher's got to adjust and then it'll flip back again. So that's kind of what's going to happen. That is definitely something that was mentioned a lot at the end of last year. And I think it's going to be very popular this year. There's a question from Hayden on the live stream. What's the single best pitch in baseball right now?

Oh, what do you think? I'll submit Devin Williams change up the air Bender, as one just purely by unique nature. Of course. Hey, you know what? I got to wear this shirt to stay warm. I'm going to at least prop him up a little bit. I mean, yeah, I don't think anyone's been able to replicate it. A lot of people tried.

I feel like that's the pitch that has just kind of really really defied pitch design so far uh guys like actually let's just learn splitters uh uh try to get that effect because no one can like pronate like that he throws a slider that way it goes that way it's just people physically twist over it's like it's just it's crazy looks like it would hurt slow motion out of his fingers i'm like i don't know how that's how how can you feel that and like be comfortable with it he's throwing it like with his pinky and i i can't imagine that i can't even move my pinky independently of my other fingers how does he even do that i don't know crazy some people like that we uh we updated stuff plus so i've got uh i've got an answer from that perspective. Aroldis Chapman's sinker? Nope.

No, come on. Felix Bautista's split finger? No way. Okay. That's at least, that makes sense. Robert Stevenson's cutter? Tyler Glasnow's curveball? Ryan Presley's slider, and Matt Brash's slider.

Okay, so I was going to ask about Brash, but like, okay, so we're talking Presley's slider cutter thing or his curveball? Yeah. Like his hard curveball because he throws, you know, low 80s. I know. They're both very good i got presley curveball 140 stuff plus and presley slider 170 so it's the harder one oh wow that's his that's his that's his bulk pitch uh yeah i wonder if you asked him he'd be like no that's just that's like my fastball. That's what I throw at my fastball. When I asked a bunch of players, and even a couple guys in the A's locker room said Matt Brash's slider.

Oh, everybody loves Matt Brash's slider. He might actually win in the worst swings category. That's true. I've never seen Jose Ramirez fall down in my career. Or even miss a pitch, frankly. I don't think I've ever gotten him swing a miss. Maybe once. And I was like, oh, it's like that, huh?

Yeah, Brash and Slider's fun to watch. A lot of pitching ninja goodness from Brash. Oh, yeah. Great eyebrows, too, Matt Brash. Alex wants to know, do you know which batter you struck out the most in your career e hugenio suarez i believe eight or nine times is this from memory or do you have are you a baseball referencing yourself uh no i i know that from memory um and uh he just he

passed napoli last year oh nap, no percentage, no Nap. I love him, man. I was a huge fan of Mike Napoli. Loved the way he played. But man, I owned him. I really did own him. I think he'd tell you that. What do you think it was? I don't know, man.

Maybe it was because it was early in the ride game. 18 was his last year. We had just learned what it was, and I had something, maybe it was because it was early rot in the ride game. Like I was like 18 was last year. So like we had just learned what it was and I had it the whole time. And I was throwing, I had just bought into throwing high heaters and yeah, it was, he was like,

Oh, for seven. And they were probably, you know, low swings trying to murder sinkers. He's a very good low ball hitter. And he started to get that high block off swing, but he'd chase it.

He'd swing at it every time. And he's just like, Oh, towards the end, you could tell he was like, I don't know why. I don't know. I don't know what it is about. I just can't do it. It looks swing at it every time. And he's just like, towards the end, you could tell he was like, I don't know why. I don't know. I don't know what it is about.

I just can't do it. It looks good until it's above the bat. It looks good until it's, I got him, I froze him a bunch of times too, which is weird. It's something I never do. I don't know.

He was just my guy that it always worked out for. It just happened. I think I froze him like three times. I probably froze like eight guys in my whole career. But you remember all those. How many of the batters you faced in your career?

How many at-bats do you remember? What percentage of them do you think? Most of them? I would say more than half, yeah. I'd say if you recall, I could tell you day or night game for the most part. Then that would tell me what time of the year like i could generally i don't know you just do a lot of like when you get really like nervous or anxious uh about a game and like you're super prepping for it so that you make sure it's like

prepping for a test you're like i gotta make sure and then you like you remember stuff from those tests you took in high school that you crammed for because you hammered it into your psyche. And that's very much how I approached the game of baseball. So it's such an intense emotion. There's very, very much getting ready to pitch to a guy. So you're going to remember the A.B. against him. I'll never forget the Aaron Judge September 11th A.B. ever. I mean, it also was a homer and they tied the game and stuff like that.

And it sucked. But the anticipation for that A.B. well i i remember anticipating it for three days i knew it was gonna happen i'm like i'm gonna face aaron judge with the game on the line on september 11th playing the yankees in city like it's gonna happen and it did exactly and then he hit the homer second pitch you know from a i was a psychology major from a psychology perspective the more motion and adrenaline you have the more you remember uh an event so i would assume that most of the time when you're on a major league mound even though it sounds like a lot 2000 or whatever like those are adrenaline filled moments for you you're always like pitching for your life

pitching for next year pitching for your contract no matter what year you are what what time it is uh when you when you walked into the a's clubhouse for the first time could you did you immediately know who you'd face oh yeah oh yeah um well there wasn't any uh but i remember like brook um i never faced rook uh i got i think it was literally uh uh oh peterson um i remember right guy he's like do you remember your strike out of me last year i'm like yeah it was a big a b guys were on second and the third uh like like you know i because i remember i even like gave a gave a yell and stuff and it was like a 97 he goes i was like yeah 97 up and away for forcing basketball he was like hey you blow my doors off because he was and then i'm like yeah i struck out colton long earlier in a high change up and so you were like he changed

it by come here he's like yes i was thinking that i'm like i know i was right that's why i threw that other one he's like jesus you remember all this i'm like yeah because that's that was what we you know i just my degree like i needed that we needed that we need to win the game i remember like it was a big game like we're chasing the braves like or trying to stay ahead of them like so he's like dude like and then we also were talking about the anxiety stuff like it's pretty clear that baseball's pretty life and death for me too he's like that makes sense that makes sense market eight dude on the stream did you ever know a pitch was going to be really good or bad as soon as it left your hand the judge one you just talked about about? Yeah. No, the Judge one, I'm like,

ooh, that's a bad pitch, but he can't even hit it. It was a change-up up and in. I have no idea. He just was like, yeah, he was his Aaron Judge. Yeah, he's really good. Yeah, that pitch was bad. There was a curveball I threw to Devers, or slider I threw to Devers. I was like, oh, get down

and then please just get there, and he just like... It didn't get didn't get there he pulled me um it was a homer homer it would have been a homer anywhere but he wrapped it and I was like and I had to catch someone else's runs it was it sucked but uh now when it came out of my hand I was like no um uh I actually have had this conversation with Adovino a lot because he's a, he's a big guy on a boarding pitches. Um, I don't know if you have heard him talk about that, but like in the middle, it's like throwing it into the ground or something or what? In the middle of his delivery,

he'd be like, he'd be like, okay, I'm gonna go slider here. And as he's throwing, he's like, no, no,

no. And I'll just yank it. So he has some of these, some of the pitches where he threw it like off the camera, like it literally was on purpose. He's just trying to get rid of the pitch. He's like, there's been a couple,

there's a couple of those are just misfires. Like, cause it's stuff, right. And he's kind of, I love it. But every once in stuff right and he's kind of every once in a while he's like every once in a while just like through the worst pitch you've ever seen and it was because i was like no no he's gonna hit it like and it happens we're human uh but i do that too sometimes where i'll be like yes i'm like why did i say yes in the last millisecond getting some kind of cue and just saying no bad idea and then you go to

you got this just you don't live with it live with whatever the you're having this conversation the catcher called it you got it you're gonna kill him if you don't throw it um so that does happen sometimes yeah but that that judge one was one was like and then i just i i'm like i've seen this in my mind's eye already. And then it happened. One more for today. This one's from Benjamin. Which hitter had the most impressive ability to identify and adjust to challenging pitches? Oh, in my career, Miggy Cabrera.

Far and away. That guy. And he didn't, he was okay with it. He was okay with like getting nasty pitches. He was never worried about a guy who was too nasty because, first of all, he had all this confidence. He's Miggy. He's just like his personality. That guy was

never in doubt of how good he was. Even towards the end, he's still having a lot of fun. He was okay with giving you the thumbs up if you got him. Once he did that, he'd go like, slider's coming, slider's coming, throw a fastball. He'd be so good at just like hitting it into your dugout and then just okay try it again you're like i'm not confident i could throw that even that that was by him he

was not looking for that and it's still he's still not out so now i have to do it again and he was a master at that which is why he's the first ballad easy uh he's amazing um but yeah i just watching him that's when I knew I was like, Oh, I'm in the show. Like you can't just like stuff a guy, like just give him your best stuff and like get him. And you got one.

And then now you got to get clever. And then they had him and V Mark, who was another very, very good at that too. So just spoiling pitches. But yeah, Mickey Cabrera best spo spoiling pitches then I'd say Votto early in his career was really good at it too he was okay with it like like just like

chopping a ball like foul and then getting another one to see um so and then it was kind of sad to see as they got older because they're trying to do it and they're just slowing down so it's harder to do uh but um yeah I I'd never seen anything like that. He was my welcome kid guy. It was impressive. I think V-Mart, you mentioned him there. He's one of those players that 10 more years are going to pass and people are going to realize how

good he was. There's players like that in every era. He's just underrated in terms of just overall ability to hit. He didn't strike out looking for two years. It's insane. In this modern era. underrated in terms of just overall ability to hit. He didn't strike out looking for two years. Wow. Insane. In this modern era. I'll never see it again. No. I'll never see it again. Not for a guy

that can do damage like that anyway. If you see someone do it, it's not going to be anyone who has any power. Yeah. It's going to be Steve Kwan. Yeah. Steve Kwan just won't strike out at all. Either way. He's just getting rid of it completely. Tons of great questions today.

We appreciate everybody who watched us live. We are going to call it a show. Give us a follow on Twitter. Trevor is at I am Trevor May. Eno is at Eno Saris. I'm at Derek. Right for the pod is at Rates and Barrels. Join our Discord. The link for that will be in the show description if you listen to this podcast. Drop us a nice rating review. Smash the like button here. And Eno's got something here for us

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So please visit us. And thanks for listening. and throw the soul games up on the background. So please visit us, and thanks for listening.