Rates & Barrels - How to Build an Elite Bullpen, the Pirates' Paul Skenes Plan & Another Jordan Walker Demotion

Episode Date: April 25, 2024

Eno, Trevor and DVR discuss Jordan Walker's demotion, the Pirates' plan for building up Paul Skenes' workload while trying to backload his innings, and the key ingredients to building an elite bullpen. Rundown 0:43 Make It Make Sense: Jordan Walker's Demotion to Triple-A 6:31 Falling Between Organizational and Individual Coaching 15:34 Tracking Workloads: The Pirates' Plan for Paul Skenes 21:41 In-Game Monitoring Technology 29:51 Building an Elite Bullpen 30:17 What Traits Do You Want In a Closer? 35:03 How Many Defined Roles Do You Want? 46:13 Unintended Consequences with Limited Pitcher Availability? 56:19 Command Thresholds For Elite Relievers Follow Eno on Twitter: @enosarris Follow DVR on Twitter: @DerekVanRiper Follow Trevor on Twitter: @IamTrevorMay e-mail: [e-mail] Join our Discord: https://discord.gg/FyBa9f3wFe Join us on Fridays at 1p ET/10a PT for our livestream episodes! https://www.youtube.com/c/rates&barrels Subscribe to The Athletic for just $2/month for the first year: theathletic.com/ratesandbarrels  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Greatest duos trading cards have arrived at Tim's with two hockey icons on every card like Matthew and Brady Kachuk Rivals teammates family and more connected like never before head to Tim's and getrels, it's Thursday, April 25th. Derek and I are here for InnoCeres. Trevor May here with you on this Thursday. A little schedule flip, which is actually super relevant to one of the main topics today. We're going to talk about building an elite boltpen and flexibility might be the key in that. So we've got Trevor working the eighth with us today instead of closing us out at the end of the week in the ninth. I don't know. Terrible, terrible analogy, but I'm using it anyway. It's cheesy. It's lame. It's fine. A lot of bullpen

talk today, but we got a couple of news items to get to first, and I want to start with Jordan Walker. He's been demoted to AAA in April in each of his first two big league seasons. Last year it was because of defense, he was learning a new position. You could see the struggles, it was easy to just watch and go, okay, yeah, he's not comfortable out there yet. He actually was hitting okay, I think his first month last year when he got demoted, and they had a log jam in the outfield. This year, it's more of a specific struggle.

Like, his swing mechanics are a little out of whack. They're saying he's struggling with down and away pitches. And I just want this to make sense, because some of the guys that are playing ahead of Jordan Walker are not the long-term solutions, but sometimes you have to do that as an organization. So, Trevor, I want to ask you this. How much does it matter, like the specific problem,

and how much does it matter the type of player and their mindset when you use a demotion like this to try and get things right? Because in my head, getting sent down when you should be a fixture in a lineup would be a potentially confidence shattering sort of event, right? To sort of deal with the, hey, I'm not on the big league roster anymore. That would have a different effect on different people. So does this seem like the right situation with Walker?

And how do you feel about the get your confidence back, get right mechanically demotions that we see from time to time? Yeah, I think we see the confidence shattering thing happen fairly often where guys are highly touted prospects. They come up, things don't go quite as planned, and then something seeps in where maybe it's someone who hasn't struggled a lot up until that point,

that I think that's pretty common. Then they go down and they do well again, and then they have to wait a little bit for their promotion, and so there becomes a little bit of jadedness happens. A guy that's like pops in my mind is Kelnick. I feel like there's a there's a lot of that happening where it took a little bit longer. I know the Orioles right now are thinking about like how it might affect probably Holliday if that were to happen to him just because he has struggled mightily here at the beginning and you have to weigh those things with the guy like Jordan Walker for it to be the second one, too

I know that that's deep in his mind like that doubt that he maybe has never had is Probably more present than it ever has like am I actually good enough to stay is that what I'm being told to do I was I just wrong and that's really hard to do especially on your own because at the at the end of, when you go down to AAA, everyone there wants to be in the big leagues too. You're not gonna get any sympathy. It's the worst thing ever when you come down and you're salty,

because you're down and then the guy's like, hey, we've all been here, man. You gotta get over it fast. So you only get a couple days of that. You can't be entitled or you can't feel like you're, even if you, everyone thinks they're better. You're like, we're better than this league. I deserve to be in the big leagues.

Everyone feels that way. It's universal and it's kind of gotta go unsaid because you're not gonna get guys to be like, yeah man, you definitely should be there. They feel the same way. It's just, that's only gonna take you so far. But I've seen it a lot. I've seen guys come down and dwell on it

a little bit too long. And at the end of the day, you do have to go down and just show that you're making progress. Now when it comes down to getting good at, or getting better at something specific, like they said about Jackson Holliday needs to hit lefties. That's just kind of lip service when they sent him down at the beginning, or at the end spring.

Yeah, because where are their better lefties? Exactly. Where are the better lefties? A lot of it's just an excuse. It's just something to say. And that, I don't know. He's just struggling. And that might've been like, he's not hitting this pitch well,

but like he's just not playing that well generally. And this is a plausible reason to send him. As for going down and like having a plan, there's not very many organizations that are really good at that communication. Like, hey, we're putting you in positions to work on this. And the work you're doing in the cage is to work on this and you go down and you kind of become part of the team pretty quickly and

You're just working with a different coach. Yeah, you're not gonna get special treatment. Some guys do there's there's some exceptions But for the most part it's very easy to go down And then you're just in triple a now and you can get comfortable there And so it's gonna be on him to to take that stuff to heart and then find his best way to do his work every Day while he's trying to perform while at the same time improving in the ways that he's been told that he needs to improve It's it's really hard to do It's a it's a balance But hopefully the the confidence shattering doesn't take away from the ability to like be motivated to do that work and sometimes it does I'm not suggesting this is necessarily the case of Jordan Walker, but you did bring up Kellinic and there was some talk about this being a problem with Kellinic was listening

to team coaches. Yeah, I've written a bit a little bit about this this year about just how many voices are in a player's head and how many of their own coaches they have. And so I know with Kellinic, like once he was set down, there was this big story about, oh, yes. And then he came and met with the coaches and we met with his private coach and we all met together and we made a plan together. And this plan produced this great April when when Kelly came back, remember, and it was kind of the implication was he

finally listened. So I do wonder if sometimes these things are like you're not listening, you know, like it doesn't seem like you're trying to do the things we want you to do. So we're kind of trying to reach out to you to like, he lets you know, like, you need to listen, you need to improve in these ways or else, you know, we don't think that you can be in the big league. So have you ever seen that happen where like they're like, it's just somebody that's like working with teacher man and like teacher man says this and you know the team is like god you just like can you stop just do the teacher man thing we're just trying to teach this other thing. And then they send them down and then like the players like well my time in the big leagues is a stake here I guess I should listen to them or I don't know is it that ring any bells something about. There is a very fine line between being coachable and

Being a happy soldier. Yes, man there's a very very fine line and it's hard to tell even like it's hard to tell when you're the guy if you're not quite sure what you're You know if you're not you don't have the experience yet to know who you are as a big league player yet. So like, that's a very sticky situation. That's where good coaching and good like open-minded, like you latch onto a guy's excitement to learn something or like what he's excited about.

Like he comes to you something like, hey, I wanna try this thing. There's a way to do that, right? And there's a way to like, be like, well, that's not the way we do things and shut it down. That guy's gonna get jaded, that guy's gonna get a little more stubborn because he believes that's best for his career

and you have to give him a good reason not to. So like there is some of that. I run into a lot of coaches that like, this is the way we do it. This is our way. The Cardinals way, we've heard that before. I've talked to guys that have played in a lot of places and they just were not fans of how micromanagers they got to, especially like veterans.

We're like, dude, it's just not the way that I am. I go for, my intent is to do things that maybe they don't do historically and they tried to kind of mold me into that model and we butt heads a little bit. Honestly, even the shilt leaving was a little bit of a weird situation, right? Because he had different ideas and they didn't want it

They weren't we didn't want to hear which is weird because he he loved the cardinal way and he came up through that organization And yeah, really weird part of making the cardinal way and then they were like no you just not you know You're not doing enough analytics or whatever it was or like maybe he was suggesting things that they were just like really opposed to And that's just the last straw. So I I don't know though I don't know I. I don't know. I haven't heard a lot about Jordan as a person either, or, you know, I haven't heard anything about him not being a good, easily coachable. So there's a lot of that. And then,

and sometimes an organization just feels like you're not doing their way. And they're just, they kind of just like are out sometimes getting a, getting a blank slate somewhere else. Trading like a Randy Rosararena. Yes, exactly. You're like, Randy, we've been trying to tell you to get the ball in the air forever and you just can't do it.

So see ya. Going to Tampa. Tampa's like, hey, you know what? You hit the ball hard. You're really speedy. Do what you do. Do what you do.

Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, that's a very raised thing. That's why guys go to the Rays a lot and are successful. And one thing I've heard about Rays player development is not that they are so great in that they fiddle all the dials and they're like, oh, do this, do this, do this.

In fact, what I've heard about the Rays player development is they're good because they're just like, you know, like we think these are the things you do well. We'll tell you to do maybe to do those things more, but like, we're just gonna, we're just gonna let you be, man. We got you for a reason. There might be some little stuff around the sides, but we're not gonna be like, we need to change your arm slot.

Yeah. Yeah, and it's very much like, if it doesn't work out, it doesn't work out kind of vibe. It's just not a super emotional thing. We're gonna give you all the tools, and if the performance just doesn't pan out the way we thought, hopefully you can get another opportunity. Or if you're good in some other way we didn't expect. Yeah, we might miss had, you know, well, hopefully you can get another Way we didn't expect like yeah, you know, we might miss it

But we're gonna do our best and then and that's the like what do you think and then it's collaborative I've heard Dodger same thing like they just have people who are like just generally curious about different information Those are the people I gravitated towards to like when I got when I was just curious about like trying new things Coach or player those were the people that I was talking to all the time. That's why I love sitting in the analytics room because that's what they were doing. They were literally every year, they were just trying new ways of presenting the data.

So that's their job. So like having those conversations, that was like a great place to do it. So it's nuanced in a lot of ways, but yeah, I mean, it's tough. Speaking of data here on Jordan Walker, I think my approach would be to put him in the lineup every day, near the bottom of the lineup, and leave him alone. Because, and this is my evidence for it, Jordan Walker has hit a ball 113 and has an 11.9% barrel rate so far this year.

His strikeout rate is a little bit worse than average, but his swing strike rate is about the same as last year. His walk rate is about the same as last year. His walk rate is about average. But if you focus on the bat of ball quality, other players that have hit the ball near 113 and hit barrels like sort of 10 to 11 percent of the time include Ryan Mountcastle, MJ Melendez, William Contreras, Christian Walker, Cristian Encarnacion Strand, Pete Alonso, Ian Happ. I mean, I didn't go to the upper ends, you know, past the, Ian Happ has hit a ball 114. So I kept it between 112, 8 and 113, 114.

So those are, those are cops. Those are good cops. Those are good cops. I know Melendez is not quite taken off, but like if I had, what are the Royals doing with Melendez? Playing him. You know, that's what I would do with Jordan Walker.

I'd play him. I just play him and be like, it's not gonna be Jordan Walker that takes us out of this. It's gonna be Nolan Aronado and Paul Gultzschmidt refinding what they normally do. They're the guys that like that are going to make us go. And then if we really get going, it's Jordan Walker's doing it too. And the only way they really get going is be like Jordan, just keep on doing it.

Then they have luxury to do it. I mean, it's not like they're running away with the division or something like that. We need to keep production or someone to catch us. They like, I just think I feel like that's a little bit of Cardinal's thing. It's like we have to do stuff like this to show that we're trying. Yeah, we're tweaking the dials. We're doing something.

We're tweaking the dials. We're mixing it up and that's very old school. I think that there's more teams that are, I feel like the Yankees struggled with that for a long time and now they're finally committing to like this is how we're gonna be better and we're just gonna have to. We're gonna play Anthony Volpe all year,

despite there being obvious, you know, some concerns with the bat, you know? And now Anthony Volpe's like great. And part of that was they just played him all year. And he felt like he was gonna play. Like it's like, am I gonna get this opportunity? And then it takes a lot of pressure off. Yeah, you just mentioned like all the peripherals are like,

he's fine, he's like four balls balls dropping and then the season looks completely different like it's April like so is it worth? Sacrificing possibly sacrificing a guy's confidence. I don't think so especially when you're in the you're not like running away with the division So just let the guy play if he's factored in now. That's one thing maybe maybe that plans changing in their mind Maybe they're getting a little bit, taking a step back, like, this isn't panning out. And that happens. One day, someone in charge goes, I'm not huge on that guy anymore. And then that's all she wrote. And I understand also from the fan's perspective, they're watching this every day. And so they're saying, oh, he doesn't look good in his at bats. The confidence is gone. But I think that is also a portion of, they're not actually playing him. Like what I'm saying is playing him every day.

They're not doing that. You know, and so he can already, he saw the writing on the wall. You know, Olly Marmal's taking him out of games, late inching in for him. Which is not helping. By the way, now I'm gonna get sent down. I'm gonna get sent down.

That's what happens. I keep looking at this team and thinking, they are a tinkering organization. Olly Marmal is like the next big tinkering thing they're going to do. They're going to replace him. Like it's not a place where you can be in last place for a long time and get away with it, right? They finished last last season.

They're in last place, I think, entering play on Thursday. I think Mozilla has lost his fastball man. I think the big tinker needs to happen. Well, yeah, I think that would be the right adjustment too. I think Chaim Bloom is better than John Mozilla. And they have that opportunity if they make that change to promote Chaim and move on. I mean, what have we seen from Mozilla?

He's said publicly, we didn't focus on swing and miss enough. We haven't, our pitching development program is not modernized enough. So like, okay, so that's half of your job. And now the hitting side is totally falling apart. So it's like, well, what are you doing? Right? I think they do have good scouts. I think they consistently produce interesting young athletic players. So that I think their scout their scouting system is pretty good. But you know, the other stuff is not looking good right now. Now, frustrating times in St. Louis.

One of the thing I wanted to talk to both of you about was just tracking workloads, because what we're seeing from the Pirates with Paul Skeens is a plan, and they're slowly ramping him up. Last time out, that was just yesterday against the AAA Omaha, four and a third innings, his longest outing of the season.

You think about the way Paul Skeens was used last season, his final college season, and how he's being brought along this year. Trevor, if an organization came to you with a plan like what the Pirates are doing with Paul Skeens, would you be on board with that in the year 2024? Managing innings this way, managing workloads this way, as opposed to managing it some other way? Like, how would you respond to that? Or how would you plan it if you were in the pitching director position and you had someone like Skeens that you were trying to get onto the big league roster? It's a very interesting question because,

you know, it's all about avoiding injuries. These guys don't like they're going from, especially guys who are like first overall picks, they're gonna be in the big leagues like within a year. They're going from a 60 game season to 162 game season. I understand that the workload difference is more than double most of the time, which is a big, like you're not gonna get 180 innings out of a guy right out of college. I mean, you might, but that probably won't pay off

the next year after that and the year after that. Like that's when that it's a you, you can get ahead of yourself. And so there is some of that that needs to happen. One thing that I struggle with and that has bothered me, I think that we haven't seen it come to fruition quite yet, but we will, one, the older guard, the Verlanders, and the Max Scherzers, and those guys are kind of not playing anymore, is that you're just like,

you're training these guys, they're not doing what their job is. Like they're just pitching. They're just like eating up a couple innings and then, so they're just like, they're doing, it's almost like you're training for a marathon, but you're never actually running one. As a reliever too, like you have that guy,

it takes a toll on you, you're like, okay, he's only gonna throw four, or he's only gonna throw five, or he's only gonna throw five, and you're never gonna get that big game, and they never learn how to become that big game guy, so once you, if it's been three years since a guy's thrown seven innings, it's now foreign to him.

You're not gonna get a guy that takes over and throws a nine-in game, just like, you gotta pry the ball out of my cold dead fingers. So I wanna make sure that that's there, too. I would much rather them do longer bodies of work when they're pitching as opposed and then like have an extra day of rest then vice versa. I would much rather do that. I would try to do that if possible. But the problem with that is and the reason that we don't go to it like a six-man like if they don't just say we have

27-man rosters now and you get one one starting pitcher and I think we talked about this last week when we were getting ready for the show, yeah, like maybe make one of them have to be a zero to three guy, right? So like the money, they're like, well we're paying one extra pitcher big league money, like that's gonna be the problem, that's gonna be the sticking point,

and then it's gonna affect innings and production and of all the other starters. So like free agency markets will have to adjust, and they don't wanna do that. Like it's just, you're starting to affect money. When that happens, that's usually when things just grind to a halt. But I do think long term in terms of quality of pitching and development, that's the better option. You like the six man rotation?

I would much rather a guy throw seven innings once a week than throw maybe twice, three innings both times, not really learning how to like, he doesn't have to work through adversity. He doesn't have to work through that long inning, because he knows he's gonna be done after it or whatever. Like, it's a different mental development you're getting, and we're seeing that more and more and more, especially with the high picks, it's like, they're supposed to come up and be studs,

and you want them to throw 200 innings eventually, but we're gonna treat them like they're on a spring training schedule for the first year of their career. I understand you want them at the end of the year, but maybe that's just not feasible. We're just not going to have them for the playoffs or in the playoffs. He's just not going to be that guy. But he is going to be the guy who gets us there. Maybe that's enough for the first year.

I feel like everyone's trying to get their cake and eat it too, and I think you just need to pick one. I guess so. I, you know, like given the, this state of, uh, baseball and this, these rosters and what's going on, I think what they're just basically trying to do is mimic the major league schedule. So like, you know, they're not going to put them on extra days of rest. If he's not going to get extra days when he gets to the big leagues. Uh, so get them on that extra schedule and basically treat this like an extended spring training, right?

They're just trying to be like, you gonna be like instead of going three four and you're ready for the big leagues or whatever It's gonna be like one two three four five three three three three four Yeah, or three three three three three four five. I do think they're gonna get to five I don't think he's gonna be a guy that necessarily goes long, especially if he's a hundred mile an hour guy I think he might be you know closer to five, I don't think he's going to be a guy that necessarily goes long, especially if he's a 100 mile an hour guy. I think he might be closer to five and dive, especially since they're going to be managing those. But what's interesting to me is that the science of this is a little bit beyond the actual implementation. So we know a little bit about acute to chronic ratio, which is basically that like acute stress is the game day. Acute is, you know, you're throwing 100 or you're doing your five innings, whatever, that's acute. In order to get to acute ability, you need to up your chronic ability. And so

that's like, you know, I can run a half marathon this weekend because I just ran eight and a half miles yesterday and at a certain tempo and I know that 13 miles is in me but I couldn't if I was up to like five miles I wouldn't want to run the 13. You know what I mean? I have to develop a chronic ability, a sort of everyday ability to be able to hit those heights. You don't ever want, like it would be terrible if I wasn't running at all and then just woke up on Sunday and was like, let's go run the freaking half marathon. So that's the acute to chronic ratio.

So we have that sussed out to some level and that's part of like pulse and these sort of tracking things. There is one major league pitcher. There's actually a monitor you can put on your elbow that's been approved to wear in the major leagues. There's one major league pitcher wearing it. His name is Nick Martinez,

and he's wearing the pulse thing while he pitches. And that can give, huh? There's two? Joe Boyle wears it too. Oh, there's the, we got him. Yeah, we got two. But Joe Boyle, Joe Boyle wears it too. Oh, there's the, we got him. Yeah, we got two. But Joe Boyle, the ace also wears it, yeah. All right, so what that's telling Joe Boyle

and what it's telling Nick Martinez is your acute level of stress. And so then you can throw that into something and know how much to rest. Cause you want to, acute is like the big fatigue thing. And then you need to come off that, but you need to build up the chronic. You can't just stop pitching for a week because you hit to get the acute is like the big fatigue thing and then you need to come off that but you need to build up the chronic. You can't just stop pitching for a week because you hit an acute. So like there's this like sort of relationship and it would be better if every single pitcher

wore the pulse monitor. I'm sure of it. I didn't have to be pulse branded. There's different ones. My guy Casey Mulholland at Connect Pro has one. Like whatever it is, wear something that does actually measures the direct stress. Because Paul Skis is throwing 100. Like his acute stress is probably worse than others.

So maybe it would be better to have him on the sixth day. Yeah, it might be. Everyone, like 100, how guys get to 100, some guys have a lot more effort than others. It does, but like that, we know that means nothing. Because like Aaron Sanchez, he was easy, but he kept getting hurt, right? So it's, who knows what they are trying and same thing.

Like, so yeah, I think you're right there. I think it would be great to see that kind of stuff. I actually wore it for like the last, at least I was in plain catch, not in the game. I had enough things on my body during the game. So I was like, but I wanted to know like how long toss was affecting me in terms of chronic. And because I had to pitch every day.

And so that was really interesting too, because my chronic was slowly building up but I was building my arm strength and building my, I guess, resistance to injury while I was playing catch that day and I made that part of my deal. I think there is something there and I think that maybe we shy away from that a little bit.

Starters definitely do. There's a lot of starters that like never go beyond 90 feet because it's all about just resting, resting, resting, resting, resting between your starts and I think we've learned a lot more. Yeah, exactly. We've learned a lot more about what they're able to, how much they're able to step on the foot on the gas

and maybe start to build those innings, even if they're not cataloged innings in games, they're still building more ability to handle chronic stress over time, so that maybe that goes a little bit faster. And that would give us a way to track it. Tracking that chronic seems really hard to do, because you have to get the buying. I'm going to have to get the body in the thing. Oh, yeah

It's a place to wear that stuff all the time Is it is it just like a fit bit that goes up higher on your arm kind of and it's got to be placed perfectly Like every time and flip the right way and it's it's yeah, it's an exact science in a lot of ways It's not as easy muddy daddy Apple watch on or I mean's not as easy. It kind of is, it's just like wearing it. You gotta put it up here on your forearm. So it's like not as, like you can put it down or up. And yeah, because it wants your ligaments in there too, like how they're flexing.

And if you miss them, then it's getting weird. Like for example, like the arm angle reading gives you is just kinda a little bit of a crap shoot. Like it's hard, you can't really do anything with it because it's sometimes just way off. I think that in terms of revolutions, like how fast your arm's moving and stuff, the accelerometer in it is really good.

So that's the one thing it does really well, which is the acute, that's how they get the acute versus chronic stress. That's the missing thing, is being able to count all of the workload. It's just incomplete information. That's what makes this job so difficult. Yeah, it's getting better.

But how uncomfortable is it having that extra monitor on your arm? That just seems like it would take a little bit of getting used to, especially to throw at game speed like you were playing catch with it. But pitching in a game, yeah, like, would you be thinking about it for the first several times you're using it? At first, the first couple times, yeah, and then it just became normal.

Yeah, I don't think about this at all, you know? I can just put it on. Like, I would wear the whoop up here on my arm, high up, and I literally would forget it was on my body when I was out there, because you can't be, I, they, you can't be able to see it. So, I would just put it, put out there because you can't be able to see it. So I would just put it somewhere so it wouldn't be able to be seen. It's like one of those things like you can't wear a wristband or whatever on your glove

and it's just extra stuff that is not. Oh, while you're playing. Yeah, while you're playing. It's actually less of a like a, you're technically not supposed to wear a whoop because technically they can vibrate. Mine never does. It's just only for an alarm. Oh, to like cheat or something?

I mean, technically it could be used that way, I guess, if it were a hacker. But like, they don't have the ability to do that. But like, it's one of those things like, some umpires are like, hey, take your wedding ring off, because you might be scuffing the ball. And the other guy's like, just, where is your wedding ring? Like, who cares?

I literally ran out once, and one guy, I was like, oh crap, my bad. he goes, I don't give a shit. And then he walked away, I was like, all right. What's the state of the hand checks coming off the mound now compared to when they started? Because they look like they've eased up a little bit when you watch them on TV. Performance.

Yeah, they look like the meme of the security guy just like fake fake padding someone down as they're about to walk into the stadium. That's what they look like now, but are they actually still looking for anything? Phil Cousy is, definitely. No one got it. He's the, well he's caught everybody. He's the only guy who's caught anyone. That's right. Oh, yeah. And he's the one that like did it really long with Bumgarner until they got into a big really long with Bumgarner.

And then he's the one who got Drew Smith last year and he got Scherzer last year. And he's the first one who got Santiago. He's the he's the first guy. So he was the martyr. Yeah, most guys are like. You're good. The other guys are like, as long as I can't see it, and it's super egregious, like you don't have pine tar all of your friggin fingers. There's been other times where some of my some guys, my team came out and

they're like, really, man? He's like, he's like, oh, it's just some gum. And he's like, all right. And then he touches it. And then like after the game, they'll be like, hey, manager, let's clean that up, right? Because that was if he does that again. Yeah right? Because that was, mm. If he does that again, that might be.

Yeah, that was one, and I've been told a couple times, I've asked guys, have you caught anybody? There's a couple guys that I mentioned the division they're in that are pretty on the, everyone else is pretty good, fine, like whatever, you're out there chewing gum, there's just crap getting on your, sometimes guys, it's an accident,

some guys are just trying to get the oil off their hands there's just crap getting on your, sometimes guys are, it's an accident. Some guys are like, you know, just trying to get the oil off their hands, and it just feels more tacky. And then there's some guys who are like, dude. So that's just, but those are few and far between. Not the way it used to be. I mean, it used to be like. No, yeah, they were looking.

They wanted it. They were excited to catch you. But also on the use side, it was almost everybody doing it at some point. And then now it's probably... It's way less. Yeah, way less. And you get a reputation too. So it's like if you're a closer and you've run into guys a couple of times,

they're like, I know your hands are the same every time. So we're like, we're good. It's kind of like if you knew a TSA guy who's seen you, like you fly every week or whatever, you're like, hey, what's up, man? Yeah, you're pretty you're probably good. Yeah, you're probably not taking your shoes off if you know the TSA agent by name and they recognize you. He's like, you're fine, I know you.

Exactly, exactly. Let's talk about bullpens, building an elite bullpen. Because we think a lot about closers on this show. We think a lot about getting saves because they matter a lot in most fantasy leagues. There are some leagues that use saves plus holds or saves and holds or some kind of formula or saves are a little more valuable, holds still matter too. It's a way of opening up the pool making more relievers a part of the fantasy game. I want to start in the ninth inning and work backwards and say what traits do you want in an actual

closer, a capital C closer. If you're going to have someone dedicated to working the ninth inning, what should that pitcher be able to do beyond just being filthy, right? There are more filthy relievers in baseball than there ever have been. But what gives you the extra things you need to be a specialist in that role? One of my theories is just a big fastball. I think you need a big fastball.

And I think it's that you need to be able to just blow it by people. I think that's something you want out of your closer. We've seen some guys like Sergio Romo. I always wanted Luke Gregerson to close and he didn't quite ever really get the chance, maybe once or twice. And I think that the

problem with the Sergio Romo Luke Gregerson types is first of all like you might just hang a slider and when you hang a slider it's 80 something in the middle of zone if you misplace a 99 mile-hour fastball it's still a 99 hour mile-hour fastball you know like what would I rather throw an 80 mile an hour cement mixer middle middle or a 99 mile an hour fastball, you know, like, what would I rather throw an 80 mile an hour cement mixer, middle middle, or a 99 mile an hour fastball middle bill? I think my answer is is pretty easy. And so I there's been some research that suggests that

fastball velocity matters. I think we could probably change it a little bit to fastball stuff. Plus, if I just look at fastball stuff, plus at the top, you know, you got Kopec, Bednar, Mason Miller, Robert Suarez, Ryan Helsley, and then non-closers that maybe, I mean Tanner Scott's up there, I think that's why he still has a job. And then non-closers that could be on the cusp that have really great fastball stuff. Plus Ryan Stanek is right there. Victor Vodnik supposedly has a really good fastball. Chad Green, one of my favorites always.

Jason Adam, you know, so these are guys with good fastballs that aren't closing. And I think I would take, you know, Adam as my closer. I think the Rays are gonna do fine while he's closing for them while Fair Ranks is out. And you know, Brian Abreu is on this list and Chad Green could be a closer for me and Ryan Stanek could be a closer for me.

I agree with that. I think big fastball, I think it comes down to having a, an elite pitch. But if that pitch is a fastball, that is the best version. Like Mason Miller right now could just give one of these every time and guys will be still missing it. And you'd be be like I'm throwing the fastball I'm throwing the fastball and and frankly Sergio there was some time there where he could have just said slider and guys were just like getting excited but he just never hung it and that was like the thing but like you said yeah mistakes were are taking advantage or a little like you can identify that as a mistake

and do damage on it, maybe easier than identifying a misheater, even though fastballs are hit harder generally, if you have a high swing of a missed fastball, you have the ability to be a closer. It's like, definitely the ability to get a strikeout is gonna be your number one thing because it's a true zero value outcome for a hitter and if you get into trouble,

the chances that you can get out of that trouble without them moving a runner or making anything happen are much higher. So like guys like Edwin Diaz, guys like Josh Hader, though I was- Static. Like they don't have command. They might put a guy on or two,

but then they'll just strike out the rest of the guy. They can strike out the way to get out of it. And then it comes down to between the ears, they understand that, like they're not in in trouble even if they walk a couple guys Then that's when the guys become elite So that's what we saw with that's what we see with Edwin is that he just like like I said, he goes 3-0 he's gonna walk like whatever I'm not gonna give up soul home or to you because I can strike the next three guys out and He's just not worried about it and that's made him what he is now and hey, there's the same way

He's not worried. So it's because they have those things and I would say that's the that's the biggest Biggest point but I think that firemen are kind of like almost like guys who are the next in line to close That's why a lot of times you see like a guy who throws a six seventh and then the closer gets hurt And then he closes and jumps the eighth inning guy because the other guy has like experience but doesn't necessarily have the stuff. I mean, they probably make that case with Presley, which is weird. That's why Hayter's closing, is because they're different stuff.

Even though Presley's stuff plus on all of his pitches is great, he doesn't throw 100. That's really what it comes down to. Little less margin for error in that situation. How many defined roles do you wanna have across an entire bullpen unit? I mean, I started thinking about this when the Rays in 2020 had all these funky looks. It's like, well, maybe you just want what Lance Borosdowski put together as a visual. You just want the arms

of a clock. You just want every possible arm slot in the bullpen. And yeah, you're going to get varying stuff. Some of those guys throw really hard. It's got Aaron Loop, Josh Fleming, Jose Alvarado, Pete Fairbanks, Aaron Slagers, Ryan Thompson, I think were the guys kind of featured in this particular group. And it's wild. I mean, you got Loop down at nine o'clock.

You got Fleming and Alvarado up at 10 and 11, Fairbanks between 12 and one, Slagers between one and two, and Thompson down there at three. That's just everything you see as a hitter looks different. So do you think about it in terms of varying up looks? Do you think about it in terms of who's going to be used when? Or do you try to shoot for both of those things?

Is it realistic to have your cake and eat it too in this case? I feel like it's a what do you got? Like who do you have? And I just think that kind of played out. Like, I don't know if they built that on purpose as much as they are like, this is the guys we have to work with and they all do certain things well,

let's see what we can put together. And then you over communicate what your, the guys are expected to do and that's what the Rays do well. That was a very, I talked extensively with loop about this Just he's like we knew exactly like he's like there was serious where I just didn't pitch There's just no lefties to face because I was so good against them. Like it's just and we didn't need me I just didn't mean for serious great. I loved it

But then there was that was like you're gonna face like their best hitters are lefties and they're batting two three Like you're coming in because they're not gonna get pinched for. And he's like, all right, well this is the one where I'm gonna pitch three days in a row, because that's what I need to do. But I know that next series I might not have to. And they know that. I think that ideally you would want, for me anyway,

if you had a guy, a closer who established a closer, like you feel like the game's over, or close to it when he comes out, having a good closer, is there something, just bridging to him, the game gets shorter. And when the game gets shorter for maybe a young bullpen, it's a little bit less daunting, like we can get to the ninth,

but we don't know how we're gonna win the game of the ninth inning. That's different than if you have somebody. And then if you can get an eighth inning guy that's pretty much the same thing, or has a lot of experience, you know they're gonna be solid, and they're gonna get the same thing every time,

the Brian Braves and the Presleys, that's ideal. And then pretty much everyone else, if you can just have like, you know, these guys are the ones that were closer ahead, and these guys are the ones that were down by a couple, or like, and then we have the guy who's like, the starting pitcher's getting lit up and he needs to throw three plus innings.

You have the long guy. The long guy's never gonna go away. It's getting more and more important now. So like, if the other five guys in the pen can do leverage, and everyone gets opportunities too, that's what the Rays do too. I think that benefits you long. Like if you have a bunch of guys with like nine holds on the air, everyone's been put in the position where they had to go get out so that maybe they weren't expecting to have to go get it. That's when you get the really, really good bullpens

operating. So the Rays do that well, the Dodgers do that really well, the Twins do that well. I wanted to ask you, maybe you've already sort of answered it with the way you were talking about the Rays, but I want to push it even beyond the Rays kind of do this, but I want to push this to like the most bizarre, most like sort of crazy version of this. And so let's say I'm the new GM of your GM of your team, and I come sit down and I, and you're like, why is the GM in on the bullpen meeting? And but I'm like, this is important to me. And I want to tell you, I won't buy in from you guys. So I've come down from, you know, the office to

tell you guys, like, we think that we've modeled the batter pit or picture interaction better than anybody has to date. And there are some really interesting things that I've seen research-wise that we're getting really close to understanding how certain swings interact with certain pitches. And so I come down and I say, we think we've really figured this out and you guys represent the best of the best, the best that we've got to fight each of these different types of swings. And so I'm here to tell you, every single one of you guys is going to get a save this year.

Every single one of you guys is going to be saved this year. Maybe none of y'all are going to get more than 10 saves. And we may bring you anywhere in from the sixthth to the 10th. You know, maybe the 5th, maybe in the 1st, 1st to the 10th, you know, like we we are really going to try and game this out so that when you come in you have something that we think that batter cannot deal with and we've prepared you for that. And so I just want to get you guys buy in that like you guys are all going to succeed. You're all going to gonna get some things here,

but we may not have someone that comes out of this with 30 saves. And you may be sitting next to, you may have to sit next to that bullpen phone for six innings. What would your reaction be as a reliever? I would hate that so much. Because it's, here's how the psyche of a reliever works,

especially if it's a day where you know you're alive or you're not down, which there are similar notifications that just will not tell you you're down. You have to like guess. That's why I like the active roster thing. Force those guys to put red lights on people. Sometimes I would be so nice for a reliever to just be like, okay, I'm not in tonight, thank you.

I got a rapport with Jeremy Hefner to the point where I could walk into the clubhouse, he'd just make eye contact with me, and I'd go. And he knew about whoop, and he knew about stuff, so I could be like, hey, I have a red. I could screenshot it, be like, I slept terrible last night, and I pitched you guys in a row. So it would be like, he'd be like, hey man, let me me know how you feel tomorrow because I throw him twice in a row, right?

And maybe that one of them was a little bit longer and I'll be alright. I'll let you cuz he knows I'll be like I'm good Let's go for three cuz I'm like I'll game if I need to game all game and I'll be like hey, man It just ain't gonna I feel terrible today and I could tell him that first thing in the morning He'd be alright cool. I'll communicate that and that was like something we had and so You wake up in the morning, your body immediately, my brain would immediately go like, I got a pitch tonight.

If I was your GM, if I gave you that speech, you'd feel like every day you wake up on real earth. I'd be more stressed every day. And then knowing like I would go out to the bullpen in the fourth inning, not because like I didn't wanna be out there. It was more so separating myself from the game for a little bit gave me three innings of like,

I could just stretch, I'm not as nervous or I'm not getting as anxious to go in the game or figure it out, and you gotta find ways to manage that so that you're kinda putting this adrenaline into a small window, because if you're adrenaline the whole time, it's exhausting. Even if you're sitting so that you're kind of putting, you know, this adrenaline into a small window. Because if you're adrenaline the whole time, it's exhausting. Like even if you're sitting there, you're getting exhausted.

And so the more you can limit it, I think that's something they're trying to do. So like, Sergio Aroma is another good example. That's the value of a role, right? That's the value of a role. And it doesn't need to be like, this is your inning, though that is helpful. Like if you're a closer, you know that you're gonna be

only going into safe situations. Like you get to relax quite often. I loved it. That's really, that was really not, it actually made me better at when I was pitching because I feel like I was like, Oh, this is the time I need to use my energy. What if I was like, okay, I know you guys are freaking out now, but what, what you're going to do when you get to the park is your, your bullpen coach is going to tell you like, these are your batters.

Yes. So that's ideal. If you want to do that, that's the way to do it is to be like, these are your batters. This is your group. They come up in these situations and the scores like this, that's going to be your time. Expect to be the one getting up.

And then that way you're like, you see it coming. You're watching the game. So it keeps you engaged too. Cause you're like, here's my situation. And I know that from this inning to this inning This is kind of my my my range like and you can watch those batters, you know Are they coming up? Where are they coming up? It's a six inning. They're coming up and it's tied I'm pitching like and loop said there was times where he'd be like, oh

But if they come up in the eighth and this guy like the other this is the lefty that throws in the eighth I'm the lefty throws in the sixth like he knew that but if that lefty in the eighth was down It was his turn now It's like so you can read it pretty easily at that point you can you can figure it out But that communication is important You can't just say any one of you can pitch anywhere from the third to the ninth every day that would that would that would produce Poor results too, but that's like kind of that's the playoffs So that's the playoffs. They're like everyone's. Everyone's stressed during the playoffs.

Exactly. Have your cleats on and be down there. They were like Edwin Diaz, be down there in the third inning. He'd come down in the fifth, usually, because he's just only closed. And they're like, in the playoffs though, we want everyone down there.

I mean, he's like, you're not gonna throw in the first, but like you might come in base to low and no one out. You might throw in sixth or seventh. Yeah. If we need to punch out the side and you're our guy, because you punch out two of every three guys you face all year, we're going to bring you in in that situation.

That's definitely a buck move too. He was ready though. We knew that. It was communicated, which was the best way to do it. It didn't come up, but it would happen. It would drive me crazy if they were like, hey, just expect to do this all the time and there's going to be some guesswork involved. But if they're like, we're going to be very clear about when these things are changing, then I'm on board. Then then it becomes a role.

It just changes all the time. Would it be exhausting for the pitching coach and the bullpen even to do my version of the over communication every day? Would that still be exhausting for 162 where it's like, you know, could I, could you just tell me that I'm like, like even Luke, he's like, I'm the sixth inning lefty. That's a little bit, that's easier. That's like, for 162, that's easier. What I'm talking about, it almost sounds like

playoff ball all year, a little bit. You know, it's like, it's tonight, it's, you know, you're Pete Alonso, like Pete Alonso through blah, blah, blah, and it could be the sixth, or it could be the seventh, or it could be the eighth. That's still pretty intense. Well, they usually do it series by series. They do it by series.

Like, I know the Dodgers do that. Like, so you get your rundown for the whole series. And if anything is adjusted, he just goes, hey, by the way, tonight, it might be a little different because of some other You're our tiny guy, he's not there anymore. Series by series can reduce the amount of communication that we have to do so that we're not like, okay, bullpen meeting today, full hour. And then after you do it five, six, seven series, then guys just start to be able to predict it. Like, so you're walking back,

hey, I'm facing this guy, aren't I? And they're like, yeah. Picking up on that pattern would help, but keeping that heart rate down, like having those expectations at least sort of baked in, because at least then you can anticipate as it unfold as opposed to the anxiety you've talked about before when the bullpen phone rings and you really don't know if it's you or not. That's the situation you want to avoid.

You don't want everybody sitting on pins and needles out there for nine innings or seven innings. It's just brutal. I can imagine it'd be terrible. Eno said he's into the idea of limited pitchers being available for each game because you'd have the idea. I'm at the park today and I'm actually down, it's day off. Okay, heart rates down for the whole game.

Great, breathing easy. Are there some unintended consequences of that that would make it not work? One would be like limiting the number of pitches you have just in case. Sometimes it's a fan. Sometimes you just got to find a way to get through the game. Honestly, the guy in second is helping a lot. It would create more position player pitches, right?

It would. There are some teams that are just like, will not do that no matter what. The white flag will never be thrown out that way. I know they just hate doing that. They really do. They just really, really, really don't want to do it. Don't throw anybody before they throw a...

Yeah. Everyone will pitch before we throw a position player. That was just the way. Some organizations are like that. It's like a thing. It's like a white flag thing that you can't let seep in. They feel like you can't let it seep into the psyche or whatever. It was a little bit like, if we're getting, it's a great day for it, it would really help us out, but maybe that's something, some growth that needs to happen there a little bit. But it, yeah, it would, if you only have five guys available, it's funny though, they're doing this a little bit,

like some organizations are doing this and everyone knows. They'll be like, these three guys are down. They're looking around. There are more red light organizations, right? There are more, you have red light too, you're down. We'd go down and I'd be like, are you up today? Are you, like me and Seth Lugo, for example.

Because we were interchangeable in a lot of ways. So they were like, I'm like, are you down? Well, that means I have all of our collective situations. But if we're both up, then it could be either one of us. So like that changes how you prepare a little bit. But like that can be, we do that ourselves. Like, did anyone say anything to you? Did anyone say anything to me?

And then if you're one of those organizations that no one says anything to anybody, then you go down and have those conversations and then you know nothing. I can't tell you how many times I've seen guys like wearing their jackets, phone rings, and then like six guys lean forward and go like this with their sweatshirts,

like ready to pull them off. That's bad news. Yeah, it's, and you just see it. The look on their face like, ah, like, and I was closing so I was like, who is it? Like, it's it's you just see it the look on their face like and I was the I was closing so I was like Who is it? Like it's not me Which it was nice to have that 10 years in that I finally got to be that guy I was always this guy and then I got to be the The guy who's like it's not me. It's one of you guys

I think one unintended consequence might be um that you might need to have like two long guys Yeah, you might need a little more guys. Yeah. You don't really have long man in here. If you had one more slot, it would be better. You have incredible ball. I put everything in six groups and I kind of put the groups at like there's high leverage guys, there's middle bridge guys.

I mean, six is more likely than five. These are all just labels and you'd have multiples from some group. Right. Some teams don't even have the capital C closer. They use a committee or maybe they've got two firemen and you'd have multiples from some group, right? Some teams don't even have the capital C because those are the easy committee or maybe they've got two firemen or you could have someone who's great against lefties and is actually good enough against righties to face both. Plenty of those guys exist, but it seems like you'd want to have ideally like one from each of these groups and then some overlap in some of these roles.

Yeah, I think the incredible bulk pitchers that I called, I don't know if anyone's ever called them that before, but I think those guys are super useful. Like Bryce Wilson's that guy for the Brewers right now. He's starting games because they've got so many injuries. Junas has been that guy in the past, kind of had the opener in front of him and worked a bunch of different ways with the Giants. Now he's being used like a starter. Well, now he's hurt. But Matt Strom is a good example of that.

I think in Eno's world where we have limitations, you would need more bulk options available. Guys that can get six outs pretty comfortably and really not have major problems. Yeah, because whatever starter gets hurt or started at least. You may have to have some contingency plans or if a starter gets hurt or goes into extra innings, you unlock an extra pitcher or something. your team within arms reach for a game

That still matters if you're coming in early and then also not burning out the rest of the bullpen keeping those guys fresh when you Don't have off days is really important So it's one of those roles that I think people sell it's the last guy in the bullpen It's still important still matters because it has a kind of a cascading effect on other days even if you don't win that particular day. I think the hardest thing also would be like teams kind of have A bullpens and B bullpens. Now I'm trying, I don't know if you've been in the B side before but like what's that like so if you're if you're if I have to declare five or six I have to kind of declare some A's and some B's because I might lose tonight.

Yeah, a little bit. And that stuff kind of already happens. It's just like kind of unsaid and you know, like all the players know intuitively. They're trying to pitch their way onto the A squad. Exactly, or guys in the A squad like have struggled recently. I actually tried to have that conversation last year where I was like, I was really struggling with the clock,

coming back out the IL. I remember going into Tate's office and say hey I understand that I'm the I have the most leverage experience like far and away of anybody in the bullpen but if I could get like two or three where it's just like I'm throwing in the sixth inning and it's like We're not tied or like there There's an opportunity of a low leverage outing just to like just to see this work That would be ideal and immediately I was throwing a leverage because we were on

leverage every time it was like we were it was like a one-run game my second time out Sears JP Sears we like five innings and five fifty nine pitches and got pulled we didn't know he was throwing he was on a five day five inning that day and they called down like make it up in the six I was like what like it's my second time back I was like well there the guy goes out of the window but I also got it because up in the six. And I was like, what? Like, it was my second time back. I was like, well, the guy goes out of the window. But I also got it, because I looked around. I was like, yeah, no one's really throwing very, no one's separating themselves into the leverage guys.

So I'm just used to, like, when things weren't going well, we always had two or three guys who were throwing well, and they became the leverage guys until I started to work my way back into that situation. And I just, the first time I was on a team, there really wasn't many options. Like, everyone's just gonna pitch whatever. We were just trying to get there. back in that situation. And I just, the first time I was on a team, there really wasn't many options. Everyone's just gonna pitch whatever. We were just trying to get there.

I got that opportunity again. But it was, sometimes I've just, you need that. So yeah, that would become, like knowing that, oh, I'm the guy who's like, I'm the garbage time guy. But it's an opportunity. You gotta see this opportunity. If I throw well here though,

I might be given it. I'm still in the big leagues. Yeah, I'm still in the big leagues. It's an opportunity that's very low stress. if I pitch well then now I become another option in higher leverage and then pitch well in that time and then suddenly you're back doing the eighth inning again. That's just what I did over and over again. So it's helpful actually in a little ways being like not demoted to triple A but just being demoted kind of like you're not going to get the most important innings yet. Let's see let's give you some opportunities here and see what happens. I think that's a good way to get guys back on the horse, especially guys that are experienced.

I keep looking at this long roll too and thinking maybe that's a better way to get the kinds of reps you would need to become a late bloomer as a starter because you're working through the lineup more than once. You got to use the arsenal to a greater degree and have more depth. You're in the big leagues, not pitching against minor leagues. You didn't have to go to KBO or you didn't have to go to NPB to get those extra reps. So you didn't have to make that massive life transformation.

Yes, you've got the role instability if it goes wrong. But yeah, if you look at it like an opportunity. Merrill Kelly could have been like a long guy for somebody for a couple of years. Would he have been as good coming back is another question. I don't know if he would have gotten the opportunity. So that's the thing. They might just be like, you're a great long guy forever.

That happens too. They're doing it with Kyle Muller right now in Oakland. He's throwing really good. He's got a 2'6", throwing long, eating innings. But he's not like, he doesn't need to go take the ball where if he struggles, it's like so glaring as a starter, he can work through these things a little bit better because usually he's throwing in a game

that's maybe out of hand already or they're already, you know what I mean? It's not so like, there's not so much pressure and I can see that he is, like his quality of pitches and stuff are getting better and better and better because of the way he's being used. But like, a guy like Mason Miller, I know they want him to start long term,

but like he might become just a closer. Remember they tried this with Chapman for way too long being a star. Early career Chapman. They thought he was going to be a starter. I, I don't know how you get there with Mason Miller. Like I don't know how you come up with a plan physically to get him through full seasons to the point where you're like, he's going at least five every time out I don't it would take three or four years to do it no matter how you tried I wanted to throw ten pitches every two days what's he have like 70 career innings concluding the minors he only

had 24 innings in the pro ball before you're called and that was because injuries so but he's electric I think that's pretty clear I think that maybe we should just say, this is what you do now. You could be this guy for a long time. Let's just let you be an elite closer. Because you need those too. I put him in our list here.

I mean, I put six closers on here. I think he belongs. I think he has that kind of stuff. I think he does too. It's the explosive fast ball. It's the, and the bats we talked about earlier in the week against the top of the Yankees order, those were situations where those guys were trying

to just get an A swing off on his fastball and they couldn't touch it. They were close. They were close. Those were stars that looked defenseless. You don't see that. That's a very unusual thing to have that much on a fastball. You could guess fastball,

you could kind of miss the middle of the plate, I think the one against Judge didn't matter. He's got an elite slider too, elite slider. So that's all you really need is just about being healthy. But yeah, he's getting some 103 fives now. I mean, he's one of the most athletic people, like just strong and he's a huge too, he's my size, but like way more athletic than me.

Like he can jump out of a gym. So I'm like, just let him, let him eat. Let him go out and eat. So yeah, they finally got a good closure in Oakland. We talked a little bit about the role of command and how like, I think for a starter it's just more important. You're not, you don't want like a lot more base runners.

Like you don't want to deal with that. Like a reliever is like, I'm still still one inning I'm still gonna just try to strike everybody out a starter has to think like how do I get through six innings how to get through five innings and so when I look for future closers I look at stuff plus but I like if I'm using fastball stuff plus I flipped it over to the sinkers you know Luis Ortiz on the on the Pirates comes mind. He reminds me a little bit of Robert Suarez, not the command's not always there. Abner Uribe on the Brewers, Yancey Almonte on the Cubs.

These are guys where, you know, the command isn't there. You know, even Lucas Erceg last year, it's a little bit better this year. You know, you just, you slim that arsenal down. You know, Luis Ortiz, you say, okay, you're a two-pitch guy now. You're just you just you you slim that arsenal down. You know, we sorties you say, OK, you're a two pitch guy now. You just think a slider. Don't throw those other ones. You can't command them as well. You kind of figure out things you just and you get that Velo boost

when you're in short outings and you say, oh, you know what? You were trying to like nibble around the corner as a starter. Now you're 99. So just throw it down the middle. You know, that's a place that I would shop for for future closers But there are guys where the command and I think of like what was that Henry Rodriguez or something? Where the command is so bad. They can't it can't even work as a closer I don't know Is there is there like it's such a snide test thing or is that like what do you what do you what do you think?

You're out when I'm saying this. No, yeah, you're completely right there's it there's like a range where like honestly, a level of why effectively wildness is actually helpful because there's so much pressure on the hitter to make something happen because there's no time to like, you can't make a mistake. So like the margin for error is low. So going up and be like,

I'm gonna get a fastball down the way and it's gonna be in the zone. Like even if that's taken away and the guy throws a hundred like Edwin Diaz is like that like he'll just he mails one to the backstop once an outing like the first throw he throws down to the bullpen is literally to the backstop on purpose because it's like I'm gonna do this once and and fear God but he has an operation thing or he just he just airs it out and he's like alright now I'm locked in. Part of it's making or trying to mess up Eric Langille the bullpen catcher too which is funny. Who has to catch him every time. There's two guys down there and Eric

they make Eric do it. Eric's the guy who came second so they make him do it. Did you see what happened at San Francisco? Trevor? With the lights? Where they turned him off? Yeah. Yeah All his bitch is in the bullpen warming up to go out and they put the they have this new like walk reliever montage with the lights and stuff and The lights go dark and like the spotlight goes on Camila Deval as he walks out But the light went out as Camila Deval through his last warm-up pitch No, that his last warm-up as hard as he can, too. He's one of those guys. He's throwing a 99 and the ball comes out of his hand and then everything goes dark.

And everyone's like, is the bullpen catcher dead? He probably just like it just happened so fast that he just caught it. It was like, oh, it's natural. He didn't even register the lights turned off. Oh, my God. That place is that place is scary I was told a couple stories about on the other side because they put a piece of plexiglass Because there's the the railings like low behind the catcher on the on the way side. Yeah, and They have a piece of plexiglass. It's like a little bit up but like people can still like

Stand on the other side and like a ball might like whoa. Well, Asovedo actually hit somebody in the like off the glance off the top of their head and he didn't like notice and she just like crumpled and everyone's like, you just hit a fan like in the head. She was okay, but like he didn't see it. You like asked for another ball cause he just like let it sail. So, and everyone else like dude,

and he just kept pitching but Edwin throws to the backstop a lot and And he does it to Langale and he literally let one eat and just hit the plexiglass and the fans were like everyone panic I mean it was like very it was the bottom of it like it wasn't even close to going over but like That's what he does like he puts the he does it to the catcher. So the catcher panic, the fans panic that line, though, we're seeing Tanner Scott. I mean, just one last bit is a little bit kind of fantasy oriented.

It's like Tanner Scott is really struggling in Florida. And I don't know. He's got kind of lower end command on this on a scale. Ryan Stanek, which you might see some of the you're watching these Mariners games might be, you know, moving towards the ninth. My location plus numbers say that Stanek has worse command than Scott. And so I don't know, is it some of that just luck? You're just sort of riding the wave, you know, or does it?

You know, maybe location plus is not capturing the right stuff here. Like maybe maybe it doesn't really have a does location bus take into like affect how bad the myth, like how like like, I don't know, a competitive location or anything, because it's a pitch and count adjusted judge of location. So, yeah, I guess like the further it gets out, the more blue it gets. The more blue it gets.

So the thing about Stanik is sometimes he misses non-competitively. Like he'll throw a fastball like in the other batter's box up because he's just trying to throw it 100 down the way and he just yanks it. And it's just a pitch that just doesn't count. A guy who, again, I was keeping monitoring this very closely, Ken Waldechuk was leading

the league last year and when he was 0-2, he'd throw three non-competitive pitches. None of them were close. So, he's missing too badly. Even though a ball is a ball, there are better balls than others. And so, a guy like Tanner Scott, though, Tanner Scott misses in the zone too much. Yes. So, his misses, his location, he's trying to throw a quality pitch and he's missing where he's given up damage. Stanik's throwing a pitch that nobody could hit if they had it.

And so it's just like, just give me a new ball. Here we go. Yeah, just give me a new ball. And so it just kind of is a throw away, literally. And the count just changes. That's a better it's better to do. Edwin Diaz does that, too. It's better to do that than what Tanner Scott does. It's got to be low risk, but low reward.

Do you like Stanik possibly to be the closer there? I think so. I don't think Munoz is showing that he's... He's missing over the plate. For some reason his stuff is down a little bit too. He's from the sinker a lot. He's loving the sinker. Something's a little strange. If there's anyone who looks like they're trying to throw hard, it's Andres Munoz.

He's Bobby Iale-ing every time, falling off the camera, so. Well, Matt Brash doesn't have great command either, and he's coming back, so he could end up at closer. His stuff just moves so much, like I don't even know how you could have good command, frankly. He's gotta start at like, he throws a Whiffle Ball.

I don't know, he's a, that guy's a freak. It's impossible. Well, we need to go for now. If you got questions for a future episode, send those our way. You can drop them in our Discord, the link to the for now. If you've got questions for a future episode, send those our way. You can drop them in our Discord. The link for the Discord is in the show description. You can email us at ratesandbarrels.gmail.com. You can find us on Twitter. Trevor's at IamTrevorMay. Eno's at EnoSaris. I'm at Derek VanRiper.

That's going to do it for this episode of Rates and Barrels. We're back with you at 1 o'clock Eastern on Friday.